You've hit that midday slump. I need a pick me up. Imagine if you worked 30 percent less, you'd be getting ready to come home now. I'm sorry we can't shorten your working day. I carbury dairy milk, 30 percent less sugar. And your favorite music stream should help Cadbury dairy milk, 30 percent less sugar just as irresistable. This week in Hanover Township, New Jersey, when a popular cheerleader disappears from the local mall, the whole area is on edge until another young woman is killed.
Then it turns into full blown panic. Welcome to small town murder.
Hello, everybody, and welcome back to small town murder.
Yes, indeed, Jimmy. Yeah, indeed. My name is James Petraglia. I'm here with my co-host, Jimmy Wassmann. Thank you, folks, so much for joining us today. We have got quite the show for you today.
This is one of those ones where I've had and been like, oh, boy, when do I want to get into this? Because it's just so there's so much to it. I knew it was one of those where I'm not going to sleep for a few days because I have to do a lot of research and it's pretty creepy at the same time. So it's tough to do. It's one of those. So it's going to be wild. Those are usually our some of our best episodes.
Yeah, the least amount of sleep I have means that we put a lot into this, so that's good. But I just want to thank everybody quickly this week for everything you've done for us, of course, all of last year and through this year. And if you haven't yet, please give us a review on Apple podcast, The Purple Icon. It helps a lot. We have no idea why. So please, though, it does help drive you up the charts.
Do that also head over to shut up and give me murder dotcom right now, that is very important because you can get your tickets to the virtual live show coming up very soon, January the twenty ninth, twenty, twenty one right here and it will be available for seventy two hours after that. It'll be a real small town murder episode, just like we would do in a theater show like we usually do. Right. We'll be sitting there, we'll have the good visuals, we'll have mikes, we'll have the whole deal being a story.
That's right. Jimmy is going to be drinking whiskey tonight. I will be going back. So it's going to be the whole baby. It's going to be the way it's going to be fun. So we can't wait to do that. January twenty nine. Shut up and give me murder dotcom. Also listen to crime and sports. If you haven't if you want more of our show, this is a very good week to start. You're on the floor this week because if you even if you don't like sports, do you know who Luca Brasi is?
You know The Godfather? Well, there's a lot more history to that. So check on crime and sports this week. Also, check out P.S. I hate this movie because I had to watch Twilight last week, so at least make it worth my while. So please do that. And Patreon is cooking right now. Thank, of course. Oh, it is going good. We're pumping out the episodes this week. We have, by the way, on dotcom slash crime and sports.
And if you sign up for that, you get access to the bonus episodes from both podcasts, crime and sports and small town murder. And you're going to get a handful of that this week. Small town murders. A bonus episode this week will be the worst town reviews I can find of different towns. We have so much fun with the town reviews. People have so much to say about them that I'm going to try to just just cultivate in aggregate as much bad blood that people have come through your local pride, hate your place, whatever, that people from places that hate them.
It's hilarious what their weird beefs are.
Check check that out. It's going to be a lot of fun. That's patrie on dotcom slash crime and sports. Plus, you'll get a shout out because you're a producer at that point.
You are. And Jimmy will mispronounce your name probably terribly. End of the show. Good for it. Or you can just go over to PayPal and use our email address, crime and sports at Gmail dot com. If you just want to be a producer and get your name mispronounced. That said, by disclaimer quickly, this is a comedy podcast is where comedians are. This is a comedy show. We're going to tell you a story about horrible murdered him, right?
That's right. And there's going to be comedy in there. I understand. If you're like, what the hell's up with that? Yeah, sounds a little bit strange, but trust us the way we do it. Yeah, it's pretty cool. It works. There's a lot going on around a murder is it's a crazy thing to have an idea to murder somebody. So there's a lot of nutty stuff going on that we can talk about. We try to go out of our way to make sure not to make fun of the victim or the victim's family, because we're assholes, but we're not scumbags.
That's how it works. Other than that, we have a good time to tell you a crazy ass story where bad things happen to sometimes good people and sometimes bad people. You never know either way, though, if that sounds good to you. Awesome. Yeah, if not a maybe we should part ways or maybe give it a chance. What are you doing here? So I'm going to give it a run either way. I think it's time for me right now and everyone out there to sit back and shout, shut up and give me a murder.
Let's do this. I cannot wait.
Go on a trip, shall we? We should. Let's do this. We are in North Carolina last week for one of the most bonkers.
What the shit I was that was one of those stories where you're like that's going on. Yeah. This is why that's why we do small town murder. Because, you know, you hear all about things happening in cities like these little tucked away things that you never knew. You're like, that's what's happening on the. Off ramps off the highway, like when I drive by and it says that place and I see two houses in them, like people live there, that's what's happening.
It's crazy. Last week we did mention because we had two shows from North Carolina last week with crime and sportsmen and small talk. So I mentioned Lisa and. Yeah, yeah, she said that they did change a law about domestic violence because of Grundy, something similar interests. I don't know if it was because of him, but it's definitely that can change the situation, probably because of multiple, like, holds one. OK, that's interesting. You don't have to.
You don't have to live together for it to be domestic. That's helpful. Yeah. If you're in the same place and someone's beating someone up, we can call it what it is.
So we're going here to Hanover Township, New Jersey, going to Jersey, the Florida of the north. Everybody I know in our bonus episode we are in New Jersey. But that was a brief one. And this is this is an episode that we really needed to get into that was almost like the like the prequel to this, basically, because it was a similar type of deal. But this is way more. Oh, yeah. That was the saddest story, right?
Yes, that was the one there. This is in north central Jersey. And I will say the murders happened kind of around this area. And this is kind of the central area. It incorporated encompasses three towns. So we're just going to call it this area. And if it's not right here and exactly right there, who cares what we're going to do?
So Hanover Township, New Jersey, north central New Jersey, this is that it's only 40 minutes to New York City. So very, very commutable. This is a place where North Central also because Jersey is like that weird shape. Yeah. So it's like above the angle. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah that's right. Either way it's a county below New York basically it's right there. It's not far at all very commutable to New York City. Population exploded here in the 60s when people were moving out of cities.
It's about an hour and a half to Philadelphia. Twenty minutes to Chatham Township, which was our last New Jersey episode, full episode, which was episode one. Sixty two Christ back in March, which was, I don't know, twenty years ago. It feels like a long time ago, different, different planet. I just saw the Ricky Gervais opening of the of the Golden Globes. That was literally a year ago. And I was like, forget, are you serious?
There's only here we are on the road less than a year ago.
Cytology a lot right there since we were in Utah. That's all. I mean, it wasn't it was snowing in Denver. Unbelievable. Crazy stuff. This is in Morris County area code eight, six to it's ten square miles. So it's a good size. It's like I said, this encompasses a couple other small towns.
And the motto here is, quote, Great things happen in Hanover. Oh, boy. So that wow.
Or Hanovers in New Jersey, that's all you need is. And then you understand from there. So quickly over the history, because we got a lot of story. We got a bus through the history. We'll just hit a couple of high points here. They had a there was a big facility here. We'll go right to the twentieth century. Lucent Technologies had a big facility and weaponry, which is around here. The first demonstration of long distance television transmission in the United States took place in nineteen twenty seven with a transmission that went from Washington, DC to New York and from Weaponeers to New York also.
OK, so that's they were trying out different lengths. Sure. Television broadcast nineteen twenty seven though.
That's cool. I love like the history of TV and when they initially that's and it's really cool, like they had the technology first and they were like they didn't know what to do with it and it sat there for a minute. It's still awfully strange that we can have that. Then they argued about what kind of TV they were going to do, how, you know, the plates or the it's a long wavelength. It works. Yeah.
Until after World World War Two. This was this was kind of an industrial town. Not a lot of people here are known for iron works, paper mills. Yeah. And things like that. But after that, after World War Two, it became, you know, it's commutable to New York City. So once you had some highways built in the 50s and things like that, it was much easier to get there. In January of 2009, January 5th, 2009, five unidentified red lights were spotted in the sky over Hanover Township in Morris County.
It became known nationally as the Morristown UFO hoax because two residents disclosed how they used road flares attached to balloons to create these objects and send a fervor through the city fucking bar.
Pretty awesome that they got those to float at the same height. Yeah, I mean, they it's pretty tough to do, I would assume, to get them to go in a straight line. Lownes of helium you need to put in each.
But the this is the home of the twenty seventeen junior peewee division, youth football, national champions. There's that very much in the child's football here. Yeah. But give that other child to do it. Do knock the math out of his head. I don't want him to know his multiplication tables when he's done with that. Now he just learned about wanting to forget him by the end of this game. Let's knock the tables out of those kids. That's what they tell the kids.
So not that I mean, that's what you're going to do. You got to do so. It's located just north of Morristown, separated by a thin strip of Morris Morris Township and adjacent to the Morristown Municipal Airport to give kind of geography from people who are around there. The township also has weaponized in Cedar Noles involved in it. There's all these places here, some reviews of the town. Most of them are positive. It was hard to find very negative reviews of the town.
And there there's even the sort of negative ones have positive in them. So people seem to like it here. Here's a three star. Hanover Township has a wonderful schooling system. The taxes are high, but they are used to our benefit. The neighborhoods are clean and the streets are kept paved. Well, that's helpful.
It's not the most well-spoken person in a review that we've ever seen. I mean, usually it's like I don't like that there ain't no potpies coming into town because I want one of them chicken sandwiches. And also the dollar store is always crowded like that. Even go to the dollar store. That's usually the normal complaint of these things. This one is the schooling system schooling. So that's brilliant. Either British or so.
The disadvantage is that there are more quick checks in town like cash, cash, check cashing places than restaurants, grocery stores or department stores. So that's fine. That's fine. That's never a good sign. The more check cashing place as you see around, that's that's usually people in this area don't have a bank account.
Yeah, that's scary. I think they pop up probably. Yeah, they probably pop up at the same rate as crack houses. I think probably I would assume.
And that's probably right about the cusp when your town starts to die. Yeah.
How many. It's a lot. It's getting bad. Just got a bank account doing. Yeah. On the lam. Or do you want to be tracked. What's the matter. You know, like three stars here. This is just very simple quote. The police respond in a very slow matter, especially when it's an emergency. Now that's a personal thing. They had an emergency and the cops didn't come as quickly as they would have liked. I don't think the general thing is, you know, if there's like a cat in a tree, they'll come running.
But if you're on fire, then they're going to take their sweet time about it. I highly doubt that's the policy.
Also, it's a very vague word, their emergency, especially when it's in the water. You know what your emergency was? That's what you consider to be what could be anything. Here is three stars.
This is very personal. Quote my current living situation. Yeah. First of all, OK, that's your problem. My current living situation is overpopulated with tons of people everywhere you go. If I could, I would love to live in a more private location where I would be able to raise my children.
So whatever the fuck else it sounds like sounds like she has a lot of people or he has a lot of people living in their house. It's a very crowded house. My cousins are here. Sounds like one of your friends put you on Airbnb. Yeah. You don't even know like new people show up all the time. It's really crowded. They expect things. I don't know. I'd take a shit. There was somebody in there, but he was there at saying, can they have better toilet paper?
They're going to give me a bad review. I was like, review of what? The towels are too hard. I like them. What do you want from me?
So here is a three star. And again, this is this person, the insult that comes first. You're like, OK, that's probably true. But then the next sentence, you're like, OK, this person has no idea what they're talking about. Anyway, three stars in weaponry.
There is not a good nightlife option. So many travel close by to Morristown where the nightlife is always outrageous.
Exclamation point out outrageous. Yeah, it's you go there. It's fucking you know, it's Greenwich Village in the fifties.
It's like just poppin Starkloff pop in.
What is going on here. Outrageous. This is it's outrageous. But not here. No. No punctuation in that. Not want to do several comma exclamation except for that it was very difficult to read it. That's how few commas were in it and how many were needed. There is always something going on in Morristown and for any holidays. Most of the bars and restaurants have their employees dress up to spread the spirit. Oh, exclamation point.
So what is this like the Morristown Chamber of Commerce president posting this? You don't want to go here. Morristown is outrageous.
Things are happening in Morristown and spread cheer, exclamation point.
And that's what happens.
So this place, this place from 1950 to 1960 kind of tripled in population since I was at post-war when the when they built the road systems better. And you could get to New York City quickly. That was a place to be. So not a bad thing for that. And it stayed pretty steady and kind of has stayed pretty steady since then. Right now there is for. Eighteen thousand four hundred thirty six people here, which it's not many up twenty five percent since 1990, so not too bad here.
Last Friday, 10 years, there's been a pretty good influx of people. Male female populations are pretty average. The it's a kind of a little more money here. So the age is a little older. Median age is forty for usually about thirty seven and a half. Any time you get money, it's going to be fourteen thousand people and it's commutable.
The New York. Yeah. Forty minutes. That's expensive. If it wasn't expensive. A shitload more people living here.
That's what all those suburbs, anything commutable to New York is. It's ridiculous. It's you'll see like I know. Like where my dad lives in New York as my little brother lives up there. Still where I'm from is like the last. If you go, you know, half hour more up, then it's not affordable. No, no. You can commute pretty well from there. My brother does it every day in Manhattan, so it's not bad to go to there.
So it's pretty expensive. But if you go a half hour north, the fucking prices go in half because then you can't commute anymore. So it cuts out a huge portion of people who might want to move there from work in the city and live up there. So that's kind of that's how it is. All those burbs around New York City are real expensive for that location. Location, that's what it is.
So here, married population much higher as well, because older and more money is going to be more maritz about fifty seven percent lower divorce rate, all of that lower, never married, less single with children, all that shit. It's just a lot of family households here. Sure. The race of this town, seventy five point eight percent white. So pretty white. Yeah it's sixty two percent say the average one point three percent black. That is well under the twelve point three percent average.
Here we have eight zero point zero oh I'm sorry, thirteen point six percent Asian. Interesting. Which is very interesting. Yeah, that's not usually five percent. So I don't know what what's driving the fact that there has to be a reason. But, you know, usually there's, you know, it's something there. Yeah. So Hispanic, eight point seven percent as well. So about sixty percent of the people here are religious, which is kind of odd for the Northeast isn't.
That's odd. But they're not. This is a different type of religious Catholic. Well, you know, they're. Forty three percent Catholic Catholics are everyone the Baptists of the North. But Catholicism in the Northeast isn't like a given. It's not like like Baptists in the South know like, well, I don't go to church on Sunday and then I got church on Tuesday and I'll see you at church on Wednesday. And this is like I went on Easter and I was busy on Christmas, maybe next Easter.
See that shit rubbed on my face on that one Wednesday?
Yeah. You tell your kid is going to do his communion and he's like, why we never go to fucking church? You're going to we're going to go to fucking CDC classes. You get your goddamn communion goddamn. And you fuck over there and you make your kids do shit like that. That's ne Catholicism. It's just, you know, it's tradition or. Right. Makes your grandmother happy. That's what it is. She in your grandma. Yeah.
Your grandma. You want your grandmother to cry if you don't get that little change. She's good. She's already bought the communion medal. She already bought the medal. Yeah. You know the do. Yeah. Yeah. Every guinea kibbee for medal and they got the confirmation one after that.
So they got to the first SWAC. Yeah. That's why it's the first change. That's why they grow up like that. Because right away it's a Kissam gold chain. So you did real well. Yeah. Put that out. You're eight years old so that's you got a medallion now you're only going to want to grow it. That's what's wrong with you. That's you know, that's our culture. That's hilarious.
So, yeah, we have that not much of one point six percent Jewish.
What I've I that I'm not give I don't know those guys.
Yeah. It's been so long. People have so disappointed when there isn't one present.
Somebody sent me the lyrics to that. I know. I don't know them. I don't know. That said, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know how to read that. I don't know. How is that more embarrassing. I guess. I mean, is it more embarrassing to know the words and not be able to say them or is it. Yeah. Not no. Yeah, it's one thing to not be able to remember that, but then to just tell if they are to see that or not be able to comprehend them.
There it is. And then just go. I don't know the words that's that's our level of damage. I mean that's a different, different ballpark. I can't pronounce the words. I don't know shit. I am really dumb. Hey, I can't read the words. I have a hard time reading. So the unemployment rate here is way lower than the national average, just as you kind of got to have some dough to live here in the median household income here.
One hundred and sixteen thousand twenty dollars a year. Wow. Which is more than double the national average of median house. Unbelievable. So pretty wealthy here. Cost of living. One hundred is regular average here. Cost of living, one forty six. So high. And the main thing that's high is housing, which is a two eighteen. One hundred percent for a median home cost of ready for this jimmi five hundred five thousand dollars. Oh, well, pricey loft is a hell of a mortgage.
A little on the price far. Six percent of the houses are worth less than two hundred thousand dollars. There is no low end.
You can find it. Yeah. Now, there's no entry level here.
A lot of people have like guest cottages and shit like these are. Yeah, there's there's very wealthy enclaves here in the cities. And if we've convinced you, damn it, you're ready to commute to New York City and move to Hanover Township, we have for you the Hanover Township, New Jersey real estate report.
Your average two bedroom rental here goes for about twenty one hundred seventy bucks, which is pricey for a two bedroom.
Yeah, it's a little pricey. I mean, it's not Manhattan, but it's. No, it's pricey. I say that much. It's not. You know, that's a lot. It's a lot. I found a five bedroom, four bath. Twenty four hundred nine square foot house. It looks like dog shit.
Yeah. It looks like shit like twenty four square feet.
Twenty four hundred square feet. It is fucked up. It needs let's just say a lot of capital, a lot of work. It's, it's going to need some love. It's, it's been I don't know what the hell somebody did do it but it's messed up.
Four hundred eighty nine thousand dollars. So yeah. Be prepared to double that and whatever you have to do because it needs a lot of work.
I found a four bedroom, two bath, six hundred forty square foot like kind of nice family starter, not starter even but just a nice family home, nice house, nice bushes out front, nice curb appeal. Very well kept. Four hundred ninety nine thousand nine hundred ninety nine dollars.
So half a million for sixteen hundred square feet. That's a little pricey. Then I found a five bedroom. Five bath. Yeah this is nice. Thirty three hundred square feet. It's a nice house on the inside but the outside is like this pale yellow, not bright yellow like that house for a few weeks ago but a pale like pastel like milk.
Yeah. As I say, like an Easter egg. Yeah. Yellow like it looks like an Easter egg. Seven hundred thirty thousand dollars for that though so. Yeah. And you want to put a little work into that. Definitely a paint job. So much so it's expensive there man. Yeah. Like I said, you want to be commutable the New York City but live in a quiet, safe, leafy place that you feel like you're in the country.
You're going to get a yard, you got to pay for it. That's what it works. Otherwise, you put up a little picket fence around the city, tree on the. Yeah, on the sidewalk in front of you.
Brown your fire escape. You go look at this. White picket fires take everybody. So things to do here. Oh, my. On the website, this one Hanover Township website that has like, you know, oh, come here and do shit. It's this is I'm going to quote from it because it's it's ballsy. Yeah. It's real ballsy.
This quote, Hanover Township has a history rivaling that of Philadelphia or Boston.
OK, probably not. I'm just going to say probably not. Let's just say Thomas Jefferson.
Well, yeah, well, he lived in there in Philly. Well, I mean, lived in there. But that's not where he lived. Didn't he have a house in Philly? Probably while he was working there.
But that's not as state as Monticello. As long as Benjamin Franklin buried there.
Yes, that's true. I was going to say you are not a big history now, and you could name multiple historical events that happen in both cities. That's the thing. OK, yeah, you could be. There's a million things there, Claman as much American history as Boston and Philly, and they say.
But unfortunately, many people don't realize how storied the Morris County community is. Like you, Jimmy, you're unsure of this. I'd like me as well. I don't want to put it on you. And that's where the Hanover Township Landmark Commission comes in. Gentlemen, they're going to tell you what's up. Quote, We're attempting to get the word out about this incredible history we have here that people can take pride in. If it was that amazing, you wouldn't have to do it.
You wouldn't have to do it now because we've heard of other small places that have had crazy histories. I know Deadwood. I know all about it. A lot of people live there, though. They didn't live there back then. But I know a lot about it. So I'm sure things happened. Don't get me wrong, but you have not done a good job publicizing them and you have that's something crazy happens. A lot of history in your town.
If you want to promote it, I'll give you a window of I'll even give you one hundred years. But once we get to two hundred and fifty or so years, you know what? You missed it. Let's say it wasn't that goddamn important to say.
Yeah, your heat is you're just your heat died down zori. So many public attractions, as they say, including the whipping the railway museum. Can't wait to go there. And the Freeling housing arbeter arbitrary. So if you want to look at some trees and the Morris County library you want to go watch homeless people masturbate so. Whatever you want to do, that's what's in a library. What do you have for me? So, I mean, there's lots of books.
Yeah, that's what they're masturbating to or hiding behind as they masturbate. That's the point. So I'm just telling the truth. If you've been in a library lately. Mark Shields, they are Churchill.
They said, I'm going to get Dickens. It's a good deal. And it's pretty funny because I need the taller one. And the other thing I found here is I am not OK with this. What is this called? This is the brew. It's a brew fest. Seafood food truck convention. I'm not buying seafood from a truck. No, I'm just not. And whether it's on the side of the road here selling shrimp or cooked, even if it's a world class chef.
Yeah. If you made it in a building, I don't know what that is in there. You got seafood and it's precarious. You've got good years under your building. What the fuck? Yeah, I found a Groupon, too. That's got like four four tickets. The Groupon was one hundred and sixty dollars. Tickets, tickets to this. Tickets to the I guess you can just xtravaganza strapper feedback on and go from truck to truck. I don't know.
And it's a Brewhouse thing too. So there's beer and seafood just ruining everybody's brand of that breath.
Imagine the porta potties, what they're like that's coming out of boats and seafood from a truck with beer on top of it in the heat. Yeah. Are you kidding me? I know that's not happening. So crime rate in this town, what we're interested in here, obviously, property crime is it's about half the national average, so not much. It's sure very safe around here kind of thing. Violent crime, murder, rape, robbery and assault.
The Mount Rushmore of crime is a good indicator of how bad it is here. And it's less than half of the national akhmad safe under the half year. Yeah, it's very safe. Some of these communities are like gated. Some of them are like, you know, some of them are just like normal, like these houses in the real estate report, we're pretty normal houses, but there are some very expensive houses. And there's just not a lot for sale around here because people hang on to this shit, basically.
So that said, let's talk about a murder because not everybody say yes, never, ever. Let's talk about a horrible thing that happened here, OK?
In this leafy wonderland known as Hanover Township, New Jersey, let's start out with a young lady.
Let's start out with we're going to go to nineteen eighty two. Beautiful. Think about it. I'm going to talk about nineteen eighty two. Let's talk about an eighteen year old high school senior in nineteen eighty two. She's getting ready in the morning. There's like, you know, we got the beat is playing in the background and when I was running I guess go goes or Bananarama or some shit I don't know what the hell is smell the rubber burning as my father takes off out of the driveway.
Yeah. For me to see him in twenty seven more years, that's probably. Yeah that's a way that's nineteen eighty two for me. Be back with cigarettes. Yeah. Pretty soon. Yeah I know. Nineteen eighty two as a child. Yeah. I'm not, not wonderful for me so. But if you were eighteen and a high school senior and you were a cheerleader and you were got great grades and we're going to go to college and we're very popular and beautiful live you'd probably be listening to we have to be we you'd probably be fucking dancin like the beginning of our adventures in babysitting or whatever.
It's like, you know that song some know about Kiss Me, wasn't it?
I don't fucking remember. But it was it was Elizabeth Shue dancing. The how many movies have started out with somebody that one stupid Britney Spears movie, she's dancing around in your underwear or whatever in the beginning. That's how movie star.
I want that. Yeah. You're going to the crossroad. I don't know if I ever saw that. No. Britney Spears was in a movie.
She starred in a movie Getting Out of here starred and. Oh, my, she it's she's terrible. It's like her. And I think Justin Long's trying to bang. Oh I know. But he's like a nerd. Oh he's she's like a nerd. She's like a good girl. But she's going on an adventure losing and. Oh yeah. She's eventually going get some, some dick at the end of that journey. So yeah. But she's, she's, it's like two thousand one.
Oh my God. Weird. So let's talk about Amy Hoffman. That's and it's Amy with an IHI. Oh not it's Amy. It's the. Yeah. So that's confusing a shit. Yeah. Well what are you going to do. Amy Hoffman is her name. Eighteen years old. Like I said, happy go. Lucky high school cheerleader, you know, having a great time, having a good time. Here she goes to Parsippany High School there.
Parsippany Troy is where that percipient Troy Hills is, where they live. They're so nice family, everything. She has a fourteen year old little sister now. She's, like I said, looking forward to real in the school stuff. She's a cheerleader. There's a big Thanksgiving football game that she's looking forward to for the you know, for the school, that homecoming.
It's not homecoming. I think that's October. I never participated in any of that. I don't know when I go to dances and. Do any of that participate in any way? No, no, no, I went to prom. Yeah. And I didn't even this in protest, which everybody does now, but at the time, I was the only. Everybody does it because. Because that looks best with their outfit. Yeah. Because they bought those shoes on purpose for this fit.
I just wore like my Charles Barkley.
I'm not buying it. Everybody was like, oh my God, why did I do that? Oh, you could. You can do that. That's awesome. That looks great. Then the next year, everybody wore, of course, the prom. But that's the only thing I went to. And that was because I had a girlfriend who was obviously forcing me.
I just didn't. You have to. I didn't do it. Yeah. Otherwise, no, I wasn't participating in any school activities.
I guess I kind of stood a girl up. A girl wanted me to go with her and I was like, yeah, sure. And then I just didn't go. And then the next next time I saw her, I was it. No, it was after. It was always after the next year. She'd never talk to me again.
That's probably for the best. I just smoked weed outside most of the time. That was my plan too. Yeah, that's it. Go in there. So Amy Hoffman, like we said, she's doing all of this shit. She gets along well with her parents. Yeah. Gets great grades, participates in school activities. Her parents are Frank and Florence Hoffman. And they Frank Hoffman served in the Army in Korea. Wow. Yeah. And his wife.
And he adopted Amy, who was Korean thirteen years ago.
So when she was five, they adopted her and brought her to America. So they were in I believe. Yeah, she was in Korea. So she is adapting very well. Here's a picture of the cheerleading squad. There she is right there. Yep. In the cheerleading squad up in the top. I see. Everywhere you go. That's nice there. So she's doing very well. November twenty third. She also has a job at the mall.
So I mean, teenager, 80s teenager to the tee. Yeah. You know, I couldn't be more. This is the opening of an 80s teen movie. Sure. You know, Michael J. Fox is going to be in love with her, but she doesn't like him. You know, she like some other guy, but she's got to notice. And when he turns into a wolf and dunks a basketball, that's the type of stuff we're talking about here.
So on the morning of November, twenty third nineteen eighty two, this is a couple of days before Thanksgiving, she gets up here, gets up a little bit late. She's not feeling well, she wasn't feeling well the day before. We'll get into that.
But she puts on a blue rust and white plaid skirt and a brown sweater and boots and goes goes to school.
That's not a leaving outfit. No, no, no. That's a cool color combination. Yeah. And she's got like she's probably like that. Like preppy early eighties. I feel like rust and blue. That's rust. Blue and white.
Yeah. That probably pops the white caps on it. Very nice. Now we're into fashion and that's what we're going to do now.
Hi, welcome to Skirt Fashion with James and Jimmy. Welcome to Skirt Review with James and Jimmy. Very sexist. We're going to leave you guys. Sounds like we're even though we're not reviewing women, we're reviewing actual garments, actual skirts for fashionability. The color combinations go together. Does the white pop, you know, how's it going to work? We're reviewing bases. Spring catalog. Yeah, well, like next. Well, you got to tune into that.
That's Patriota there. So if somebody wants us to do that, we will run blue and white. I like you've hit that midday slump.
I need a pick me up. Imagine if you worked thirty percent less, you'd be getting ready to come home now. I'm sorry we can't shorten your working day. I carbury dairy milk. Thirty percent less sugar. Your favorite music stream should help Cadbury dairy milk. Thirty percent less sugar just as irresistable. And so she goes to school, talks to her friends, by the way, homecoming dance is coming up. It's giving up, but there's one coming up soon here.
And she's talking about how she is going to be competing for homecoming queen. So, I mean, this is how she is like, got it together. This girl here, she would wear a black gown. She was saying that's what she was telling women to wear black, brown and and do this. This is my plan.
This is a girl that we would have looked at and went, wow, she'll never talk to me.
She's got it. She's got a lot going on for her. I got to find someone who is like, you know, who hasn't talked to her parents.
Well, this one also speaks or thinks about things that I don't think about that would never have that on my mind. I'd never have my shit together. Not much outfits picked out talking about it. Yeah, everything here. Now, that day later on, she goes to work at the mall, the Morris County Mall. I mean, hey, what a teenager working at the mall. Five more, you know, stereotypical ladies. Can that be right?
She now her mom, she's supposed to get off at nine thirty from work and she's home by nine forty five if she drives her car. Yeah. I have found, I guess you could say evidence, but I found people posting about this that worked in the mall that sometimes she took the bus home. Amy did. Amy did. And sometimes she, sometimes she drove her car. So I don't know if she was driving her car all the time right now or what.
But she's she took her car to work that night. When she takes her car, she's home by nine forty five. That's that. Now, her mother, Florence, says she's a big worrier. So, you know, she's not home by nine forty six. She's looking out the front window looking for headlights to come down the street. She's just, you know, worried mom. That's how she is. So she said when she knew I was home, she was never more than ten minutes late without calling.
Amy is very know. I mean, she's very punctual. She's very got it together. Dependable. Exactly.
So now nine forty five comes around and no Amy. Nine fifty comes around. No Amy by ten o'clock comes around. No Amy. So the mom's like, I mean you know it is normal for a teenager maybe got caught in a conversation with her friend or you never know if maybe she's talking to a boy and there's no cell phones in nineteen two. So she can't just be like all the once I got a text my mom and like say I'll be home in twenty minutes so she's got to go to a fucking payphone.
You know, the store that she works that's close. She's got to go to a payphone, put a quarter in and call her mom. It's you know, it's a lot. So her mom though is not taking any chances. At about 10:00, mom heads to the mall to look for Jesus Christ. She's 18 years old. Yeah. She's literally fifteen minutes late coming home and mom is in the car. Go in there. So that's warrior fits her.
Well, nothing wrong with that whatsoever. It's awesome. It's, you know, who knows what mother, you know, motherly instincts you have or.
My mom would have never done that. No, no, no. My mom would have assumed I was fine. My mom would have waited fifteen days like I should go to his job. Yeah. And then she'd tell me how worried she was afterwards. I wasn't worried sick. Yeah.
I'm here I am. You could have found me two weeks ago so. Yeah. Anyway, she was leaving her part time job. It's at the surprise store I think it's a clothing store at the mall and that's where she worked. She left her part time job there and her mom finds her car in the parking lot when she gets there. OK, well, there's Amy's car. That's, you know, a good sign. But she might still be here, obviously, if I see her car, four cars gone and then she's gone, that's more scary.
I would imagine. As you see your car, you go, OK, it's in the rear of parking lot of the mall. And the mom looks around, goes up to the car, looks inside and inside the car is Amy's jacket, which it's November, November twenty in New Jersey at nighttime. So chilly outside her jacket, her purse. So the doors are unlocked and the keys in the ignition. That's not good at all. No jacket and purse on the front seat.
Key in the ignition, not on not you know, the car's not running, but keys in the ignition and doors are unlocked. So this is very strange. So her mother thinks, oh, maybe she ran, you know, oh, I forgot something. I run back in.
And that's that's the only explanation. I don't know.
But that's the only explanation for where she could be and everything could be fine. Right. Is that everything to be OK? Everything's OK, right. Yeah. So she looks around the car. She said that she at that point, Florence walks to the liquor store. There's a liquor store in the mall plaza there and it is the only lit place left. It's the only place with lights on still. So she goes there hoping that must be where Amy has I guess because that's the only place with lights on she better be.
And she goes there and gets to the liquor store and we'll get back to that in a little bit. OK, so Amy is a mess. We'll get back to Amy for a minute here. We're going to have to go back to about the late 60s for a second here. Yeah. Let's go back to late 60s Jurga. Talk about a guy, Gerald. James, Gerald, Gerald was a judge, by the way, James, Gerald, Cody, coltish, Kodesh, Conatus Yakutat, I think see our I'm sorry koe d a tie C.H..
I hate it. Coltish. It's a tough one. We're going to judge James. Let's call him James. Let's call him J. J. I don't want to call him James because also his date of birth is June 12th. Nineteen forty eight. So we have the same birthday obviously decades apart but the same birthday also. So I don't want to be James and have the same birthday call him James Jr. at this point. Jimmy Jay. Yeah. Yeah.
So he's got a lot of problems. He's born in nineteen forty eight, June 12th. Nineteen forty eight by the late sixties. He's already has a shitload of problems. Teenage arrest. He's been arrested over a dozen times, Yeezus as a teenager, everything from assaulting a New Brunswick police officer to possession of heroin in a stolen car. OK, he's a general ne'er do well. Fuck up this guy.
Basically you got heroin and a stolen car. That's the least of your worries. Yeah.
Yeah. Your day's been shit. It's it's a bit of shit that your life is just. Yes, it's it's a mess. It is literally a mess. You really can't wait to go to bed so that you can dream of a better life because when you get up you got to go, OK. Oh, not only do I have to figure out how to get money for heroin, but then I got to find a place way to get there, steal a car.
Ah yeah. I'm looking for this one already. Yeah. This is bad stuff.
So everything in there and he most of the charges are between nineteen sixty seven and nineteen seventy all around Morristown, New Jersey. So right in this area this is his, this is his stomping ground. He's a real problem. He is an issue in the late 60s and early, you know, made up to nineteen seventy a huge issue as a teenager. Escape is his thing by the way. If you catch him you better hold him tight because he's not going to stay voluntarily squirmy.
He's a little squirmy one. We have these guys that are escapers and that's always the weirdest personality type was like, yeah, you're right.
It's a personality, a personality. It's watching the right. I'm going to hold me like the Rika's documentary. There's, I don't know, forty fifty guys in in that documentary. Yeah. The most interesting man is when they call a rabbit man because he's a runner.
Yeah. And and that's what it is. He's fascinating to talk to. It's true in every running man running man every jail book I've read too, they always talk about every prison. There's one guy who's like the escape artist who is like that guy broke out of like five jails and shit. There's always that they love him. Yeah. Because he's like he's like the, you know, the cowboy basically.
He's like the robbing the stage he's living the life they wish they could. Yeah.
I want to escape there even though then he just gets another five years. But still this guy is one of those guys so that tells you that you don't think about the future. You're all you're already locked up. Yeah. So if you try to escape, you're either thinking, A, I'm going to get away forever. Right. Which is probably an unreasonable thought. Probably not going to happen. Also, can you fly because. No, you're never now doing either of those.
Yeah. Either that or I'm going to leave and they're going to catch me and then I'm going to get an extra shitload added to my sentence. But like I get to be free for three days. Is that worth it?
You know, and also if you escape and get away and then they catch you, they're going to add time to it. They're also going to put you in an area that's much harder to run.
That's the other thing. And with him, there's two ways people escape. There's the people who try to do it, like, you know, they put a dummy in the bed and they escaped in the laundry basket and they sneak out, sneak out. Then there's the guys who are like the Ben Cramer guy who's like, not let's fly a helicopter into the yard and try to lift me out of here. And they drop me bolt cutters and I'll cut through the fence.
That's. Yeah, or just rip through it. That's the type of guy we have here. He apparently, according to Morris County officials, they said as a teenager, teenager, he once escaped from the Annandale Correctional Facility in a, quote, blaze of gunfire.
Oh. So he somehow got a hold of firearms in jail. He was firing the weapon, escaped and basically had a shootout as he escaped with prison officials. So that's as a teenager. That's what he was doing. And then heroin, stolen cars, a little bit of a loose cannon we got here.
OK, so, yeah, a little bit. So he's about though he's born in 48. So we go to seventy one June seven. Seventy one. So five days before his third birthday here he is in jail and he escapes again. This is the Jackson Memorial Hospital for a this is down I believe in Florida. He escapes for a while. Basically he is in a jail hospital. Yeah. And for a wound that he's self-inflicted in jail got to the hospital where it's an easier place to escape.
There's less security. And then he escaped. He sawed off a leg shackle. That's genius to get out of here. Yeah. A lot of guys do. You got to watch that.
The running man, that's what he was trying to get. He was trying to get put into a psychiatric ward because it's security. Right. Way less scary there. Yeah. So that's how it always is. That's always. The easier living, basically, yeah, so that's how that goes right there. So that's see this June seven on purpose to go to the hospital, to go to the hospital, to Jackel off, to run away. Wow, this guy is a problem.
Let's just say so.
While he's escaped from jail, June 13th, 1971, he day after his birthday, he now he was in jail for a robbery down in Florida. That's why he was in there. His roommate is a guy named Robert Johannesson, who's 40 years old at the time. So he's older than him. They live in Surfside, Florida. I don't know where the fuck that is, but it's an apartment in Surfside imagines on the coast.
Yes, by Daytona.
Exactly. Now, Robert Anderson hadn't been picked up yet for this robbery, but James had and I guess, Robert, there was some some thought on James's part that Robert may be may have some loose lips about this robbery, maybe trying to get himself out of trouble by implicating James a little bit more of a bitch. Absolutely. So what he does is he goes home to his apartment at night to await Collins Avenue in Surfside on escape. While he's escaping, he goes to his apartment where his roommate was and he kills him.
Well, that's what he does. Yeah, he kills him. The police, acting on a tip, found Robert Johannesson stuffed into the closet of that apartment. Absolutely. As they arrived. As police arrived, a man bolted from the apartment and they shot him, but he wasn't seriously wounded and he got away. What? That was J.J., that is JJ here he is identified as James KODE, Kotek, who is who had escaped from the hospital there.
They ended up he was being treated for, like we said, know, self-inflicted wound and drug addiction as well. And he had moved in with Anderson after his escape. And they said that he he came back there. That was where he was staying. He didn't live there before. That was his current roommate on escape. And he said that they had been involved in an altercation and he had been killed. They they think he strangled him. So they charged him with first degree murder for this because he's trying to also cover up a crime here.
So in his defense, though, he's got a defense here. This is awesome. He says, listen, Robert Sanderson made sexual advances toward me, so I had to murder him as a fascinating defense.
Yeah, the robbery and all that stuff is all secondary. Yeah, I'm mad at him for that, for telling me and stuff. But he tried to put his dick on me and that's where I draw the line. That's it right there. Yeah.
He set an argument occurred after that and he had to kill Anderson. What else could he do. He said he flattered and walked. Right. Go. Hey, listen, I appreciate it. That is no thanks. But in his mind, he like, you know, so obviously I had to kill him. He didn't say I woke up with him inside me and he said he made a sexual advance to which your first response should be, no, thank you.
And then after that, maybe if it was not so violent.
Right. So violent yourself. Yeah. Go for the fact that he was saying, like, I was trying to fend off. They've got two inches in and I pushed him out. He did. And I killed him.
He said we got in an argument over it and I killed him, which is way different. I'm not giving it to. Yes, you are. No, I'm not killing you. How do you get there?
I can't imagine. So he told the story of the argument and the killing to a friend of his Marikar, and then she related it to another friend, Frank Morris. And then Morris went to the apartment where he found the dead body. So that's how this goes. I never tell anybody that you killed somebody. That's probably done.
So later, this Morris guy notified the Surfside police and two officers went back to the apartment with him. They were like, OK, show me the body, Laci. Take me to it. Yeah, and they did. And yeah, when they got to the apartment, they tried to open the door, but it was held by the chain lock. And then they tried to look into the apartment through the windows, but he couldn't because the drapes were closed.
So they grabbed the door, broke the chain and entered the apartment. That's when James Jay was standing near the windows. He didn't say anything when they entered or began looking for the body. He just stood there and they couldn't find the body until more said, no, it's in that closet back there because they're like, we don't see him. And it was, I guess, blocked by a bed. James had moved a bed in front of the closet.
At that point, it was discovered. And then James took off and eventually he's caught. They chased him down. I don't know if they follow the blood trail or what. He's wounded. He's a wounded man running. So, yeah, he goes to prison for this at this point. And he they end up giving him let's just say you, sir, he's convicted of second degree murder. And you, sir, may fuck off. Twenty years in prison for killing recently.
He's wild, so weak.
He's twenty years of a very bad man for covering up and even. Yeah. Covering up. Another crime, so evil, one very dangerous man so far, this is going to escalate, this can't if he's willing to strangle a guy he knows just to cover up a robbery, it's not even a murder.
Right. That's in his 30s. Yeah.
Now, January 13th. Nineteen seventy two. He there's some guy getting a convicted robber sentenced to ninety nine years of hard labor. He's OK, which seems, I don't know, 70s.
That was a punishment. Still, I don't know what you could be robbing for. Ninety nine years of hard luck unless somebody died especially you know, I don't know somebody vulnerable of some kind of child or something. Ninety nine years of hard labor seems excessive. I think that a robbery is you know, anything is worth that.
That's crazy. So what ends up happening is this guy is convicted to this. And then our man, James Jay here, he steps up from the Raeford State Prison, where he's serving 20 years for second degree murder. And he testifies that he and two other men, including the guy who he killed, actually committed the robbery, not the guy who gave ninety nine years to that was us. Oh, he's got a heart. Well, he's in for 20 years anyway, I feel like and I don't know yet.
99 for robbery. You got 20 for murder. Yeah. What if they give you that.
That's I don't know what he's trying to prove here, but he said that he and Herman were in his car at the scene, quote, sleeping off a drunk and and that that dude had no part in the robbery, just no part of it at all. That's the Munsie robbery. This is the Muncie's where the people whose home it was, he said the everybody fled. They swam down a nearby canal and into the Biscayne Bay. Jesus Christ. I know how gross.
The detective here said that he took a police boat to the canal behind Mrs. Muncie's home and determine the escape route. And yeah, so they said it's all him. He did it. And they said no, he did. Basically, that's what ended up happening. They let the other guy stay in anyway. Yeah, they let him stay because they didn't believe him. They introduced evidence that the motel key and fingerprints found in the guy's car and at the robbery scene.
So he was there. She also pointed out that James Jay and Greenwood shared a jail cell during separate arrest. So they've known each other and they could have concocted this in jail. Basically, jail officials reported Wednesday that after being returned from Raeford for the trial, he was misplaced and was again found sharing a cell with with the robber. So basically, he figured out how to get into the cell and hang out and scheme with this guy. And I gave the green what guy had several prior robbery convictions as well.
So, yeah. So he probably did it. He probably did.
So James Jr appeals his murder conviction here. Yeah, he does. He appeals it. He says that there's reversible error because of his Fourth Amendment rights were violated due to the warrantless search of his apartment, the seizure of the deceased's body, the seizure of the body. Yeah. How could you just take that? How could you to.
I was keep I was using that. I was saving that for later. You don't get to just keep a body. They can take that. You don't say that's mine.
Now, it's generally I don't think you're allowed to. I don't know legally. You have to you have to notify someone that. Yeah, that's you have to give it up. You can't just hang on to that for a while. So he's upset about the seizure of the deceased body, which is maybe the craziest thing I've ever read in the legal document and the warrantless arrest. Well, I mean, if he ran away from a place with a dead body, even with a gunshot wound, that's signs of guilt.
So I'd be more happy to be in possession of ounces of cocaine than a dead body stuffed into a closet where I'm the only other guy in the house. I don't want any possession. No, I yeah, I have no matter how it died, they're going to figure out how to put me away for it. I'd rather you walk in while I'm sitting behind Scarface desk. That's, you know, just I guess I'm fucked. I think I could explain that away better.
I could I don't know. But this year is better than a dead body. Officer, I'm glad you're here. I've been looking at this. I think it's going it's going to take a closer look. What do you think that was just about to call you guys? It is.
I'll get it out of here. I can't have this in my home. Jesus Christ. I got neighbors. Good God. I tell the kids all the time, clean their shit up. What the hell?
But the body can't do that.
No, you're fucked. There's no, you know, shucks, you can't go. You can't go and make it go away.
Problem solved. This is a dead forty year old man stuck in a closet. Matter of fact, I know it makes it worse. Yeah. Oh, God. Or either way can be taken out either in or out.
OK, ok. OK, so yeah they said that you know, fuck you stay in jail. You're affirmed. There you go. So he's in prison. Twenty years. September six. Nineteen seventy three. We hear from him again by so he's really fucking he's messing up. Yeah. Well he's not mouthy here. This time, he he's. Oh, because he stabs up another inmate. Oh, my God. The Florida State Prison where he killed an inmate actually.
So he Jerry Kent Barber, who is serving 12 years on kidnapping counts, was identified as the victim. The spokesman for the for the prison here said that James Jay was being held in connection with this killing as well. He's already serving his sentence. Obviously, they said that he's being charged with another second degree murder. He they said that the other guy provoked the incident by threatening him with a razor blade. That's what his story was. James Jay said he threatened me with a razor blade.
He told corrections officers that he grabbed Barber by the neck and kept squeezing it until he was unconscious. And then he ended up being pronounced dead at the scene. So he strangled this guy. He's got to strangle under his belt now at this point. Yet he disarmed a man with a blade and strangled him. He did. And then the prison official says preliminary indication from corrections officials say that this may have been a justifiable homicide. Really? Because, yeah, there's a razor involved.
And I think they look into it last probably with to a kidnapper and a murderer and then probably, yeah, probably very little if he had a razor.
I mean, that's possible. People have razors in here. I could see it. You know what I mean? I don't know how they go to heaven that he strangled the shit out of guy. So now he's got two dead bodies at least on him that we know of here. They said he may face a murder charge, though, after that, and they never end up actually giving him another murder charge.
So, yeah, he's just going to do is 20 years kill the man and got away with it free like O.J. as knew Jack would say. That is unbelievable. That's crazy.
So October 18th, 1982, James is released from prison after doing about 11 years and killing two human beings. Yeah, two deaths.
All these robberies, heroin, stolen cars, escape hail of gunfire, sawn off shackles, you name it, 11 years out. That's it. It's just over half this time.
Yeah, 11 years. He does. So he is released there October 18th. Nineteen eighty two. He's coming into a different world from seventy one. Eighty two. Yeah, very different world. I mean you're talking from hippie to Reagan. It's a very different world, completely different.
So he gets out of there and he, he had been in there. Exactly. Pretty much eleven years almost to the day like a month shy of it. He moves in with his mother in Morristown, New Jersey, really let him go up to Morristown, New Jersey. That's where he moves in, back in with mom, his mom and stepdad, stepbrother, their younger stepbrother, all sorts of people living in this house. It's a lot imagine the environment he came from.
Just put it that way. And I mean, I'm not saying I don't know, it might be fine. He might just have a screw loose.
But generally, even in a house this crowded coming from the house, he just got out.
Yeah, it's pretty pretty empty and open. That's true. Yeah. Maybe that was that reviewer's problem. They were in prison. The space I'm in is overpopulated. It's like all sorts of murderers and criminals everywhere I get get away from these people.
So block I live in. Yeah, that's it.
So that's October 18th. Nineteen eighty two. He's released, he's out on the street wandering Morristown, New Jersey now November 21st. Nineteen eighty two. This is two days before Amy went to the mall and her mom couldn't find her. Let's catch back up with Amy and see what she was up to before that. OK, on November twenty first she woke up at ten thirty a.m. and her at twelve thirty. Her childhood friend of hers and a fellow cheerleader arrived and drove her to a guy named Timothy Day's house where a group of friends were there and they watched a football game on TV.
OK, so that's where she went to a gathering of a bunch of friends. Sure sounds like fun. Watch the Giants look cool, I guess what cool kids did in high school. So at the conclusion of the football game, this guy, the Timothy Day, drove his friends to Rainbow, the Rainbow Lakes firehouse where a spaghetti dinner took place in honor of the school's cheerleaders and football players. The firehouse? Yeah, it's probably a fundraiser for the school, for the firehouse or for the cheerleader cheerleading and football team or whatever.
But, yeah, they're having a spaghetti dinner at the firehouse, OK, to raise funds for something. So at the firehouse, there was an incident, not sure what, but her friend Karen, who she had, you know, went to the party with or went to the to watch a football game with at the firehouse during a spaghetti dinner, hurt herself badly enough to need to go to the emergency room. Karen, I don't know what you could do, eating spaghetti in a firehouse that you could enjoy yourself to an emergency level, but there's not even a knife involved.
It's just toilet. What do you do with I don't know, I'm nothing against Karen. But like, how do you hurt yourself that she felt that maybe she came down the pole to our Dalmatian bider?
I have no clue what the fuck. I don't know what happened.
So stick around. The firehouse, they got a lot of tools to take care. Well, I think they just probably put the sirens on, took her right to the hospital as our. They did it, probably throw her in the truck. Yeah, so, yeah, that's what she did there. Amy accompanied her to the hospital and also Karen's mother was there and they were there for about an hour and a half while Karen was treated. They then went back to Karen's house and hung out till about 11:00 o'clock PM when a high school classmate who had been there and drove Amy home.
So that's that's her day that day. What a day. Not a not a bad Sunday and a little bit nutty. Yeah, but I it's up pretty shitty. Closed up city with the trip to the emergency room. But a football game and a plate of spaghetti is not a bad day. Honorable. Can't go wrong there. So on Monday, November twenty second, the next day Amy woke up, but this day she stays home from school as the original Karen ruining a good time.
Yeah, that's grim. Karen. Karen's been shitty since 1992. Damn it, Karen. Now she's injured at the firehouse. How do you hurt yourself while you're eating spaghetti? Karen Good God, it's the softest food on earth. Did you not cook it and you stabbed yourself. What happened?
So grim. So grim. Forkan So, yeah, that day, November 22nd, on Monday, Amy does not go to school. She has menstrual cramps. She is cramping up pretty good. So it's awful. Yeah, it must be bad. So she doesn't go to school. Her and her mom spend most of the day talking and hanging out and, you know, whatever. So that evening, her and her family visit the close family, friends of theirs, the Weavers.
That's how that goes. That's her Monday night. So the next day is Tuesday, November. Twenty third. That's the day we talked about. She still felt sick. So she went she slept a little late and went to school. Later, she put on, like we said, the the pattern that we liked so much, the rusted and blue.
And now I make sense now makes so much more sense stuff. Yeah. Yeah, it makes a lot more sense now. These are great colors for this. I was waiting for you when we said the rust. You're like, that's a good pattern. I was like, that's probably I wanted to say there's probably a reason because I knew this was coming, but I was like, tightwads, oh, wait till you get there, OK?
And then by the time we got there, I forgot about it. And I'm glad you've got this in case I was saving it for you. So she sleeps late. She does that. She goes to school and she has lunch at school with her friend Karen, who I assume is recovered from her spagetti injury. And apparently it was just a minor injury. Yeah, I don't know. She's like I tried to get a strand up from my throat through my nose so I could go back and forth with the little.
Got it broke and it was stuck in there. It's just in my sinuses. They had to get a long, tweezer and it was crazy. It's a very it's the only way you can hurt yourself with spaghetti. I'm sorry. I don't know how else you could do. I don't know either. I'd really like to know that. So I tried to hang herself.
I don't know. I don't know. I would have broke do.
It's not good. So Amy then after school's over, a company's Karen to a dentist appointment in Denver. Her whole life is going to the doctor with this lady with Karen. How about the dentist? How about the emergency room? I'm going to the chiropractor afterwards. Would you like to be there? I've got a 630 abortion. Are you? No, not that I'm not thinking about Karen, but just, you know, no, it's not anything that Amy has to be at the doctor with her.
I want to go to that statistic and get a landing strip carved in. You want to be going to be there? Oh, man. Come on. So that's a difference women will do. That seems like. All right, I'll go. If you were if you were like, I'm going to go get my balls. You want to come with me? I'd be like, what? Hey, why are you doing that be? Why are you inviting me?
No, that's real personal between you and whoever's waxing your balls. You're not showing me that when you're done. Thank you. That's the other thing.
I don't want to see any pictures later, though. No shiny, shiny white scrotal pictures. Thank you. So the they return to school at about two thirty. So that was after lunch. So she went to school late, went to lunch and a dentist appointment and then got back to school back. Yeah, because cheerleading practice is there. So she's got to go to cheer practice. That's how that works. Practice ended at about four forty five and a girl named Karen Ersek, whose locker was next to Amy's notice that Amy was wearing purple underwear, a brownish purple sweater, a plaid skirt, like we said, and cowboy boots.
We said her underwear, that's it'll come in. It's it's important later. So. Yeah, but how did she see it?
Because they're all changing to each other, not just a regular locker in the dress. Yeah, not in the hallway. I was like four forty five her chair locker and I didn't hear you say anything about your locker. Amy is you know, she's very confident. Yeah. She's a very confident young lady and she's standing in a hallway, purple underwear. I'm being like, that's right. Vote for me for homecoming queen. No, that's not what happened.
That would have been an aggressive marketing ploy, I would say, in high school. So Amy got dressed quickly and left at about five or five PM because she had to be at her part time jobs. Busy girl. These if you're in high school and you have. A bunch of activities and a job, you're busy person, you got a lot going on, so she has to go there. The surprise store for women, because there's also a surprise store for men, apparently.
Apparently their clothing stores just got a part time job there, according to Christine Gonzales, who worked at the surprise store for men. Amy arrived for work shortly after 5:00 p.m. She took a dinner break after 8:00, no later than eight thirty. She went to McDonald's and ordered a Coke, French fries and chicken nuggets. So she got some nuggets. By the way, this is pre national nugget rollout. Really. This is select market nuggets. Eighty one and eighty two.
New York always had the New York market. Always had the test. Sure, we always did. Like when they tried to have hot dogs and McDonald's by our side hot dogs growing up. Yeah. They tried to have hot dogs playing like the early 90s. It was like a hot dogs. I mean it goes better with a hot dog or a hamburger than a hot dog, but they look like shit.
They were like bad. They didn't even look like gas station. Hot dogs are really anemic right now.
They were like a pail. They were gross looking like shit. So but they we used to get all the test shit. So apparently she got to experience mixed nuggets early. Good for her. So fries, a Coke and Nuggets very popular cheerleader job at a closed store in the mall, having Nuggets, fries and a Coke at her mall job as eighties as it gets. Yeah, it's it's basically stranger things is happening right now. That's what I feel like.
We're in a complete stranger things. And every day she's like, this is so much better than what is probably going on in Korea. I'm sure about maybe not. I maybe who knows. They might have the test going on. Korea. Oh yeah. Who knows. I don't I've never been to Korea. I, I can't say the Koreans don't know that. And if it's North Korea. Definite for sure. For sure. Everywhere here, if it's Seoul, who knows.
Everywhere here. I mean maybe Cleveland but everywhere else. Honestly, there's no comparison in North Korea.
It's got to be better. I mean, obviously I'm in Cleveland touch-And-Go. It's touch and go there. There might be some neighborhoods that are great but don't have a Cleveland bar in the hotel room. The majority side. It is horrifying. Yeah, it's not great.
So wide open businesses, boards on the windows, nice people. They're unbelievable.
Borst We always say worse. The city better the crowd. That's how it always is.
They're always the best people and they're always like, oh, it's a place where I could go, Oh, Christ, I wish I come with you. I wish we could come with you. You need a rowdy. People have said that to us. A lot of thought. Please take me with you. So Barbara Horwath.
Wow. Barbara Horwath and implies want to say hogwash, said Barbara Horwath, an employee of the Kodak Jewelers who regularly uses the surprise store's restroom, saw Amy eating fries at about 11 eight fifteen. She went in to use the. She went into use the crapper. Yeah, and she saw some French fries. So, Chris, in these circle things and these circle things, I don't know what there was a little hamburger chunks. I don't know what she was eating.
They were brown, tiny, breaded burgers. I don't know. They were. So according to that, Christine Gonzales, again, the men's surprise store lady, she saw Amy again at about nine twenty. This is when Christine helped Amy closed the women's store and Amy returned the favor at the men's store. So the closing people helped each other, which makes sense that schools close that gate market and all the same policies on counting down the register.
You know how to do exactly. One person can do one thing while the other one does. It makes sense. So Christine needed a ride home that evening. She was stranded, basically, but Amy doesn't offer her a ride because her mother was going to do her hair that night. So Amy told her, I can't. I have to rush home. Yeah, my mother's giving me a home perm. She's getting a home perm at 10 p.m. at.
Yeah. That night. So because then it's got to set and all that shit. So she's going to give me the home perm. And so I got a rush and she's sitting there probably with plastic gloves on waiting for me. So that's what she tells her.
And they leave the mall about nine thirty five. Amy is carrying her book bag still from school, still got her backpack on. So I mean, looking like a high school student, you know, leaving the mall at the mall exit, Christine says good night to Amy and turned right while Amy went straight back through the emptying parking lot to her car. So that's how that went. And that's the last that's where she saw her there. Now, Barbara Horwath again left the Kodak Jewelers a few minutes earlier than Amy had left the surprise store.
She walked out the main exit straight back into the back parking lot. She walked out with three other employees and they gradually split up until they she remained with only one other person dead, Debbie McClain.
They stopped to chat for like five minutes. That manager, isn't she? My God, I couldn't believe it. She got I came back two minutes late for my break. Oh, my God. Jesus Christ. I have put a restroom in the jeweller's. I have to go over to the surprise store. Ridiculous saucing. Have you tried those nuggets they make you shoot you? I tried them, they're delicious, but man, will you shake them even tangy, soft, sweet and sour.
It was sweet and it made my stomach sour. I was pooping and I set up the surprise. I say, surprise shit up your bathroom. Have a good one, girl. And she leaves for the five star surprise. I love to surprise. It's a big one. And where it is is the biggest surprise of all. You'll never guess you'll find it next week. Good luck, everybody. Have a good one. One of those circular clothing racks underneath the ones you hide in when you're a kid and scare the shit out of your mom goes, where are you?
This is great.
And she fucking beats the shit out of you in public for that. This is so funny. I've been beaten by the color shirt. I've been smacked repeatedly in public for that. Just that that like that quick machine goes.
I don't know if that's just Italian mothers that do that, like while you're in arms reach. I'm going to whack as many times as I can. It's not just one. And then see the results. So I'll hit the kid and then say what happened. Italian mothers are like Feltus. They know there's a cry come in and they don't care which one. Many shots they can get in before you're running away. And then they're going to chase you, too.
But they assume that you have sneakers on. Probably you're faster. And that's it to my mom sat there and then I heard her feet stomping away and I knew where she was going. So I got up. She's like halfway to customer service. I'm like, Mom, until she has my sister and her arm and she ran back and beat me with the left. That's what it is. And we're not obviously condoning child abuse and we're condoning child abuse on us.
Yeah, yes. We needed to be smacked. Don't hit your kids. You don't want anybody to get hit. And I think it's funny that kids get hit, but we think that old timey kid beaten is pretty funny when it's on us that we turned out fine, really. And that's another part of like body. I turned out I did not know. I mean, fucked up. It wouldn't be funny if our whole life was right. That was like a big deal.
It was just if I was telling that story from behind bars, it would be different. Yeah, I'm just saying, I don't know what Italian kid that grew up any time in the battle don't know how it is right now, but any time pre nineteen ninety, nineteen ninety five if they were born that didn't get the shit beat and have them at some point, it's just how it happened. So now while they were talking, Barbara Horwath and Debbie McClain, Barbara notices in front of them a greenish blue vehicle with a vinyl roof and what she described as Pudi marks on the driver's side.
Yeah, that that look fucking Bondo. Bondo, it's an older car. It's an older model. She doesn't know what it is, but it's not new. Sounds like a maverick.
Yeah, it's probably it's probably a tornado or some some piece of shit. Some hunka with a vinyl roof. Yeah. I mean, every model really came with one of those ANOVA that hasn't been kept up. Something poor like. Yeah. Something just shitty. So she ends up like I said, seeing that the greenish blue car with putty marks on the side, the driver's side window was down about four inches. She said she could see the driver in profile.
She said his eyes were dark, his hair was curly and light colored.
Blonde, curly hair is what she said, how she described his hair. She said his nose was pointy. At one point, the driver turned and looked toward them. Barbara could see dark markings on the sides of his nose and under his eyes, she said his nose was prominent. You know, like maybe you if you had glasses on. Oh, possibly like markings, I'd he meant like NFL Sunday markings. Yeah, she said Seibu, the nose.
Got it. So that makes me think that my daughter's glasses might be glasses possibly or something like or he had glasses on recently. She said his nose was prominent and his hair was shoulder length and she saw gold around the collar.
So if that meant a necklace or what, but that was what was described.
Barbara says good night to Debbie McClain, walks past the car that she saw. She said she saw six rear lights, three on each side. That's the setup. And identified. The car is a Chevy similar to her sister's Chevy Bel Air. She said she got in the car and drove down toward the mall. As she left, she saw Amy walking up the parking lot toward her car.
So she passed her in her car. Like we said, you know, Amy's mom is at this point, some time goes by. Amy's mom gets to the mall at ten fifteen, found the car in the parking lot, keys in the ignition. Amy's jacket, pocketbook and wallet are all in the car keys in the ignition. And she called the police at that point when she couldn't find she went to the liquor store. No, Amy. Yeah, that was the thing.
Light's on. No Amy there. So that's what she called the police patrolman William Plate at Hanover Township. Canine officer came to. The mall with his dog, actually, and to investigate a missing person and once at the mall, they met up that Amy's car and attempted to get the dog, tried to get a scent on her. And after scenting, he picked up, tracked about two parking spaces from Amy's car, but then stopped. So, yeah, whatever car she's in was probably two spaces away.
That's where the dog is. The scent ended for the dog. So they placed obviously they interpreted the behavior that the scent ended there. And so there they think that she's she's been taken. She's been taken and she's not home. There's some problem here. She's been taken and probably not voluntarily.
So by the next day, this is the biggest fucking story in northern New Jersey. This is a, you know, going to be a homecoming queen or cheerleader. Pictures of her and her cheer outfit all over, missing everywhere. Holy shit. Where's Amy? At school. Oh, man. They go nuts at school. They're showing their picture to everybody. All the kids are going around trying to find her. If only they had an Amber Alert.
Yeah, something. Yeah, an Amber Alert would have been good instead of an amber. Amber is fine too. But we could have had Amy back then. Maybe we should have started it. Yeah. Or might still be here. Or maybe if Amy if it was someone before Amy it was like, like Ananda Alerter. I don't know some shit like that maybe. I don't know. Going back to the very first kid that ever. Yeah.
So I don't know what his name her is. Her name was there was the kid the first time. It was a long time ago.
We sure can say whatever technology then plucked from a cave in Jeron Now Thanksgiving Day, the Thanksgiving Day football pep rally was to be held the next day as well. So at 8:00 a.m., the cheerleaders all got their half hour before the rally and the cheerleading coach said that the girls were all hysterical because she was missing. You know, that makes sense that they're all freaking out. So the coach, this woman recalled telling the cheerleaders, this is crazy, by the way, quote, You have a job to do.
Their cheerleaders, they don't have a job to do. There's no even if they're athletes, there's no job. You're a high school person. It's you don't have that job. You have a school waiting for a pep rally. And you have to think positively that everything will be OK. Wow. Yeah. The cheerleaders cheered at the rally and dry your eyes. Get out there. Literally.
I want to see some teeth. I smile like fucking really. I mean, I went to school there. Yeah. I want to see school spirit pumping from you guys. Each girl attached to helium filled balloon with her name on it to a megaphone. And Amy's balloon was tied to the fence near the field.
She so this this. Yeah. This is a really again, Grimm this is a Grimm thing here, obviously devastated the big time.
Now, that coach said that she her theory was that the killer was someone in uniform. She says she tells the newspaper, I think the killer is someone in uniform. She said that Amy would go with someone in authority. She was very trusting. And she said that it might have been either someone who said either that or someone who said they needed her help. She said she was very helpful and was someone who would always help someone. And she said, quote, The one thing that always bothered me was Amy's trust.
One thing that bothered me is she was a nice kid.
OK, so I that I hated about her was that she was just so trusting.
Just trust anybody. So Thanksgiving Day nineteen eighty two. This is there's a place called the old Mendham Waterworks located in Randolph Township, and it's got big water retaining tanks like that there. Yeah. There's a big center holding tank there with water. They're made of cement and they're very isolated and surrounded by three woods, three sides by woods. So, yeah, they keep them out there. There's a road called Comb's Hollow Road, located about one hundred yards to the west of the holding tanks with a dirt road that leads up to the tanks, a maintenance road, you know, you know, that goes missing.
An electric guy. You follow the road, do a thing road. Yeah.
A bridge separates Combs Hollow Road and the dirt road. Now, there's a couple here walking their dog in this area and they make a pretty bad discovery here. Boy, they find Amy in the tank face down floating.
Oh, no. She is wearing at the time they find her. It's not good. And what ended up will go into what happened here? She's wearing the same panties. She was wearing the purple panties. So that's the thing. That's why they said that same underwear, her sweater skirt and cowboy boots that she had worn the last time she was seen. Same outfit completely.
Now there's blood stains on the sides of the tank all over it. Amy's ring is found on the ground near the center tank and her wristwatch is found in the holding tases there. And then there's a really weird. Heart here, her cut hair was found around the body as well as on the ground outside of the tank. We heard, yeah, somebody chopped all her hair up.
A kidney shaped pool of blood, 18 inches long and nine inches wide was found on the sandy ground near the tank. A trail of blood led from the kidney shaped pool to the wall of the holding tank to the right corner of the center tank. So the police obviously took her out of the water and she's examined and they found a long open gash on the left side of her head, an L shape wound to her right shoulder and short injuries at the base of her neck.
Her left ear had been severed.
I don't know if that was in the middle of the hair, leaving a deep wound that he said would not have caused death, but would have prevented her from holding her head straight if she couldn't would have been able to keep her.
You know, that equilibrium was so fucked up, this wound extended all the way through her soft tissue to the spinal column. Oh, Jesus. So it was like a chop to the ear off. It's unbelievable. Like a psychopath. Wow, that's crazy. This there was a short laceration at the base of her nose and two severe chest wounds, one penetrating four and a half inches, stab wounds, the other penetrating more than seven inches through deep through her lungs and back between the ninth and tenth ribs all the way through to the back of the ribs.
That's fucking brutal. That is absolutely brutal. Destroying her.
Yeah. They think it might have been caused by a bayonet or a large knife similar to a bayonet.
But yet the doctor concluded that the structure of the wounds that they were, that they were caused by a single edged knife held perpendicular to her chest. He hypothesized the knife was inserted, causing the four and a half inch wound, then part partially withdrawn, then thrust in Berkeley, writhed, didn't even get it all the way out, causing the seven inch wound.
Yeah. Oh hell, man. Yeah, it's even worse, man. She had defensive wounds on her right hand as though she attempted to grab the knife, grab the blade, just like it was a slice, like she grabbed on to it to try to protect herself. Also abrasions and bruises on her left thigh, lower arm consistent with her having been dragged over the retention tank. The interment internal examination reveals that she had apparently eaten a short time prior to her death and her stomach were found fragments of white meat from chicken.
Yeah. So that says No. One, that that everybody's reports were correct of what she was doing. And number two, that there actually is white meat, chicken and chicken nuggets, which everybody has the scientifically there.
So, I mean, it is not to be it is white and color not to be. Yeah. Well he said white meat, chicken like a real chicken. That color. He didn't say a chicken like substance. A chicken slurries white meat. Jinksy at least back then there was chicken and chicken nuggets they say now. So I mean, there was a lot to get off the subject, but there was what appeared to be French fries and also what appeared to be a role.
I don't know what do they get in a role back then? Not that I know of. I've never seen a role at McDonald's. It was a test thing in Jersey. Maybe you get nuggets in a role, hey, go to ninety nine rolls, go great with chicken, we're told.
So maybe somebody else had something she grabbed or who the hell knows. So based on all the evidence this doctor estimated at the time of death was probably four or five hours after she'd eaten her last meal. So that's about two hours after two to three hours after she was picked up. Basically now and also internal examination, the doctor took swabbing of oral vaginal rectal swabbing, of course, and made twelve slides of the swabs. He examined six slides and sent the rest to the medical examiner's office in Newark.
Sperm is found in the vaginal slides, which obviously indicated that she was sexually assaulted as well, found no presence of sperm on the rectal slides, but said that he thinks that she was violated something else.
But yeah, in some way maybe there, but not no sperm.
So he concurred. Another doctor concurred that the finding of sperm in the vagina and estimated intercourse occurred very soon after that, before that. So it was probably right before her death wasn't like the day before something. He also his examination, however, revealed that he did find sperm in the rectal slides as well. Yes, this is fucking horrible. The worst the worst nightmare that you could expect that your high school kids going to work at the mall and all this and then that this is the worst that could possibly happen.
When you tell them to be careful, you're to be careful of this, not a fender bender. Be careful of someone abducting you in the. Parking lot and doing this shit to you. And when I explain how it happened, so it's not great in the autopsy. He also said she bled to death in the cause of bleeding was the wound to the chest. That was the main cause of death there. Then obviously, check out the start investigating this.
This is a lot of pressure. This is all hands on deck. So newspapers every single day, they're covering this.
What's going on where, you know, I mean, it's huge as you got everybody's freaking out, locking their doors, shut their gates, having alarm systems installed. It's one of those type of things here. So they talk to various people who had been in the vicinity of a mall or the reservoir on that night, November. Twenty third, they talked to Mrs. WMS Horwath. Like we said, they drew composites of the car and driver she saw in the parking lot there.
So now on December 5th, nineteen eighty two, because of the similarity of the vehicle and facial appearance to the Hallworth composite, a patrol officer in Morris County, Morris of the Morris County Park Police, stops James J. Yeah, based on this matching description, God stops and pulls him over. The notes of that officer reflect that he is five foot ten and a half to six inches tall with a beard and mustache. The composite sketch was of a blonde, curly haired, possibly with facial hair, because the window wasn't down that far, which he only saw the nose.
The officer did not detain him, though, at the time, just took down information and I guess was like, well, I guess we know where to find you if we need you type of thing, but does not detain him even though he's pulled over. Based on that, let's keep that date in mind. December 5th, nineteen eighty two, very, very fucking very important that you remember December 5th. Eighty two during the day he's pulled over and not detained at all.
So other information here came out of persons who were in the vicinity of the reservoir. Police talked to Timothy O'Grady, who had been visiting his girlfriend's mother on Morris Turnpike, just just drinking whiskey and just sitting there drinking. Timothy O'Grady. It is near the reservoir in the night in question. O'Grady left about ten fifteen to get home in time to phone his girlfriend, who was away at college. He returned to he turned on the hollow road bearing in the direction of the dirt access road to the reservoir.
He said he noticed a pair of headlights by the access tanks near the reservoir. The lights were heading away from the tanks down the access road. He paused before a narrow bridge on Comb's Hollow Road to let the car pass. The car had come down the access road by that time, so it's one of those where it's too narrow. So someone's got to stop. Someone's got to stop, basically. So the other car had four headlights mounted side to side with parking lights beneath a grated grill and the car was medium to light blue.
All right. That's what he saw.
Yeah. Or a road or something. Yeah.
O'Grady recalled the car's high beams on once you read. Once he reached home, O'Grady, who was a car buff here, he identified the car in a manual that he had because he wanted to know what it was, because he liked cars as a nineteen seventies Chevrolet two door.
That's what he had. So, you know, that's the the model. Yes. Yeah. Well it's but it's a shit box, not a nice one. It's nineteen eighty two. Oh it's a nineteen seventy and he's got putty marks and shit. It's not a good one. He's hit some trees. A couple. Yeah. It's one of those where someone like ten years later go oh what a shame this could have been so beautiful or a restaurant or something.
So he told police that there was only one person in the car and that the operator that he saw was probably a male who might have had a mustache. But he doesn't think a beard, but he's not sure. So that's what he saw. They also interviewed Mrs. Mary Clark, who lived on Combs Hollow Road and who heard about twelve forty five, about twelve forty five, what sounded like a small sports car go by the house slowly from the direction of the retention tanks.
She didn't know whether the car had come from the access road to the tanks or how it happened. But the detective who interviewed her recounted that she told him she got out of bed when she heard the engine but saw no headlights and that the vehicle went up the road, turned around and came by her house again. She later said that she didn't remember telling the officer any of those things. So I don't know if this lady is senile or what, but I don't know.
She may or may not have heard and seen everything. Yeah.
So that's basically what they have to go on. OK, light blue car. That's about it. By the way, the football team won forty seven to nothing. Wow. So the honor I guess so incredible.
So yeah she'd been long knife or bayonet. Basically what they think happened was she was grabbed, thrown into a trunk and dragged out to this remote location. How driven all the way out there. The driver got there, pulled out of the trunk and then he had two hours with her probably. So he was raped her. And I'm sure there was bruises, so beatings on smaller cuts, probably. My theory, I don't know what their theory is, but my theory would be probably cut off the ear to try to make her more compliant.
That's that's if she was not cooperating, as he would put it, he might have done that to try spotting next. I don't know if that was for his own whatever weird thing he had or if that was some sort of degrading. Obviously, it's a degrading thing, but I don't know if that was I think that's part of the control thing. Oh, it absolutely is. There's a lot of serial killers who have done that. They try to they have to like them.
They're making a mannequin almost what they want.
Also, they want to degrade a person.
They want to it's he's whoever this is fucked in the head. But this is certainly about both making them feel bad and him. Yeah, I think it's about all of it. November 30th. Nineteen eighty two is the funeral. More than a thousand friends and relatives to attend her funeral. So a lot of people there. So December 5th. Nineteen eighty two to remember that day. Yeah, that's the date. And that afternoon, early, James Jr.
was pulled over, fitting the description of the car seen by Amy and the person seen near Amy, but does not detain and is let go.
So December 5th, let's talk about a young lady named Deirdre O'Brien. Twenty five years old. She's an artist. She's she's graduated from Seton Hall University, where she majored in art history. So being that she went to school for art history, she's a waitress, obviously.
Yeah. That's there's not a lot of jobs in art history, but any art degree. Yeah, it's tough. It's a tough go. It really is. So but she lives in Mendon, Mendham Township, with her parents. They're pretty affluent, as we'll see. They're kind of a they have like a family rents a cottage from them that's in there on their property. They're they're pretty affluent here. But with that. Right. Rent my cottage.
Yeah. I wish I knew somebody that had one of those when I was that age and I could not have been the greatest.
So know they own it though. So she does that. From what I understand, she's a pretty talented artist, too. She's pretty good. She lives in Mendham Township with her parents, James and George O'Brien and her brothers. She has a brother, James, and sisters Erin and Maureen. So she's got a full family life here. She graduated from Mount St. John Academy of Gladstone and Seton Hall University and worked as a waitress at the library, which was about a mile away from the shopping mall where Amy Hoffman was employed.
So they all kind of in that area, the two of them.
And although unlike Amy, though, she O'Brien here this Saturday night of the 5th, she's not working. She she's not working at all. She's still in the area of this. Yeah. There anyway. But she does hang out sometimes.
She doesn't have a guy. Maybe you got a couple of free drinks. If you're if you're a waitress at a bar, at a bar that's you go on an off night and you know some people nearby. Yeah. Yeah. The bartender is never going to charge an employee. Never. Yeah. So what ends up happening is she's in this area and then next thing you know, there's a rest stop on Route 80 and Alala Moochie LaMarche and two two truck drivers before four a.m. and end up being awoken by pounding on the door of his tractor trailer, plus one truck driver, and he hears screaming that a woman's been stabbed.
Jesus. So he gets out of the car and sees sees her standing there. Yeah, it's Deirdre O'Brien. Twenty five. She's been stabbed. She's bleeding. It's for something in the morning. Her car, a gray Honda Civic, was found abandoned about a mile and a half from her home. OK, this is on Washington Valley Road in Mendon, Mendham Township. Now, this is, you know, like we said, December 5th there.
So they end up obviously investigating this a little bit further because once they she they said she just appeared out of nowhere. Yeah. The trucker reached a lake LAPE, Lake Hopatcong Lake Hop Hop at Hopatcong Base Unit operator who called the al-Amoudi Green Township First Aid Squad.
It's an out of the fucking way. Wow. She's lucky to be alive. Dry well at this point. Yeah. In the meantime here, the driver administers whatever first aid he can to her to try to help her, covering her with a sleeping bag and attempting to keep her calm and everything and whatever. She said she was cold. Yeah, but they take her to the hospital where she died. Oh, no.
Of her stab wounds. Yeah. So to 10 a.m. was when somebody saw her car, by the way, that was when her car was first reported over there. And then she pops up at four a.m. for something. Yeah.
So they this is the account of the death here is that she. Was apparently when they found the car, the headlights were on, the driver's door was open, keys in the ignition, no apparent signs of a struggle, no apparent signs of a struggle, which is an interesting thing because, you know, how do you how do you get that?
Well, you there's a I know people who could get someone to step out of a car with no signs of a struggle while leaving keys in the ignition and the headlights on the general. It happens. And you get a ticket. Yeah. Or someone thinks you do. Yeah. So, yeah, this. Anyway, the results of the autopsy was that she stabbed several times in the chest. She there is conflicting reports on sexual assault. Like with Amy, the newspaper said no sexual assault outright at first to hold that piece of information, obviously to know if someone was telling the truth, if they got a confession or something strategy here, it's the same thing.
But later on, her parents say she was raped in this. So I assume if her parents say so, then I'm going to believe them, that they've probably seen some sort of report. A doctor somewhere has told them that. Exactly. So basically what ended up happening was she was forced off the road. They said there was some kind of she described it like this. Basically, she was thrown in a trunk, stuffed into a trunk, driven 20 miles to the rest stop, where this guy stabbed her four times in the chest and threw her out of the car and left her for dead.
Wow. So she was bleeding to death and she managed to drag herself a hundred feet to the cab of a tractor trailer. So this guy did this within one hundred feet of Virginia at a rest stop. There's a bunch of trucks of people sleeping.
He doesn't know if somebody's sitting up in there right at that point, had to take a leak or something. Could be Gary Howard making a pot. That's what I mean. Who knows what's going on in these trucks. Jason Fuller could be watching YouTube wrestling videos. We have no idea what's happened. So that's ballsy.
Yeah, she banged on the truck's cab. Like we said. He woke up all that sort of shit. She described her attacker as well. So she did get a description out. She knew she was dying. And she she said she knew she was dying and thanked her, the truck driver, for helping her. What? She was a nice person to the end there. She does succumb to her wounds. Her father has to identify her body.
It's fucking horrible. So people had heard a trucker calling for help on a citizens band radio at about two forty five a.m., which is weird. I don't know how that ended up. Wow. That five to forty five, which is way earlier than that. So she's forced off the road as she was driving. They think it was some kind of lights forced her off the road. They think basically they think that someone posed as a police officer with some kind of blue flashing light or forced her off the road, told her to step out of the car, grabbed her, threw her in the trunk, took her to a remote location, raped, stabbed, and then dumped her at a rest stop where unbelievably for her, she's still alive enough to be able to drag herself to give a description and a thank you this poor dear O'Brien.
So here are pictures of the ladies gym, by the way. Jesus. Yeah, they're they're both adorable.
Yeah. And they're both want to both want hair. Yeah.
They both have like a similar symbol. Obviously one's Asian, very clearly Asian and one isn't. But the very similar face about them, similar structure, structure, dark hair, that sort of thing. So yeah, it's, they're both Derrida's a couple inches taller. But outside of that she's described as an attractive girl with dark hair, you know, that sort of thing. One family who rented a cottage from her family on their property said that she was very nice.
She said, quote, The children were so delightful. They were always so good to our family. She said that she was dear, was so nice. A friend of Deirdre's boyfriend said he thought the couple were planning on getting engaged soon. He said Deirdre had returned home recently after she left a previous job outside the state and that the teachers were that the the boyfriend was ready to pop the question. Finally, after a long relationship, one of the teachers she had in high school said, I don't believe what happened.
This is Sister Lucille, the former principal at the All Girls private school. She went to him. She said, I just can't believe this happened. It seems like a repeat performance of the Parsippany girl's murder, meaning Amy Hoffman. She's connecting them. She said that everyone at the school is frightened by the latest murder. It feels like a bad sequel. It feels bad.
So, dear, dear, by the way, that was December 5th. Yeah, that happened that night. Right. Weird. So I just I just talked to the cops. Yeah. So Deirdra worked at the store about a year ago. This is a restaurant where she was like she worked in the office in this restaurant and then she was a she was a waitress somewhere else. OK, so that's how she did that. Coworkers describe her as very likeable, personable, good employee.
Her her boss said she was just a very good. Employee and a good waitress, she had no enemies whatsoever, and everyone here liked her. She usually went straight home after work. Neighbors said she comes from a peaceful, affluent setting. There's horses roaming in backyards. Doors go on locked up till now. It's just a, you know, affluent, beautiful area. They said she's described as an excellent student in school, a member of the art and literary clubs on the yearbook staff, Sister Lucille said, quote, She was the ideal girl.
She came from a family where Christian values and moral values are stressed.
So, yeah, so the two killings aren't could they be related maybe now? Right. This is right from the paper. The newspaper at the time. This is The Daily Record. Despite the striking similarities between the circumstances surrounding the murder of O'Brien and that of 18 year old Amy Hoffman, a participant in the state, police are making no connections between them, quote, at this time, you know, based off based on the similarities of how they were taken and the way they were found, how they were.
And it was all wrapped together. No, I think no connection at this time.
How could that be connected? How could they do it? They said, according to Jesus Christ. And they said, you know, yes, because the reporter said, well, they were both young women, dark hair, abducted from cars at night, keys still in the ignition. No sign of robbery, personal on the scene, no signs of a struggle, raped and dead. Yeah, although it had although it it appeared that Deirdre's car had been forced off the road as it was turned sharply on the shoulder, that was the only thing there.
And both women were killed by severe stab wounds from the chest. At this point, the paper says, quote, Neither was sexually molested, which isn't true. They both were, but they just didn't have a suspect yet. So they're like, despite all that, we don't know. We're not positive apart from the fact it's identical minus where the car is. Yeah, that says so. If they repeatedly said they're being investigated with both concepts in mind that both women were murdered by the same men and that there might be two murders, they don't know which two, they're investigating it equally on both sides.
Just as an outsider looking in, it looks like he's perfecting murdering that the other girl he got in a parking lot, maybe I was seen get her out on the open road and just put out the road. Better, less witnesses, way less witnesses. Totally dark out. That's I guarantee, his thought.
And if he got pulled over that day, what do you think he did when the cop turned his light on?
He pulled over. He thought, how genius, how can I get a girl to pull over fucking day? That guy pulled me over. I pulled right over. I would have done whatever he asked me to. Did it? God damn it. I bet a young woman would really be compliant with a police officer, unlike an ex convict murderer like myself. So think about how the psychology there, the police are so baffled and under so much pressure, they bring a psychic in at one point, get out of here, bring a psychic and one guy who working not as a as the strategy, but a guy who's kind of they have everybody on this case.
So one of the guys working around the edges of it, a guy named Captain Jim Moore, contacted a local psychic named Nancy Weber, who he knew already. Yeah. So his wife's like, hey, come on over here. And another detective, Bill Hughes, was brought in on this as well. Weber told the police officers details about Hoffman's death that they didn't even know yet. That was in reports that they hadn't read. After a few initial meetings, they drove together to the crime scene and Weber gave the police information about Hoffman's killer, telling them, quote, The man who did this, his first name may be James, something with a J.
What his last name is Polish. Multiple syllables, beginning with a K, ending with an issue. What the fuck? Yeah. She said he came up from the south where he had been in prison before. He used to live in this area.
Oh, I'm creeped out. It's creepy. This person do this. She was she was not able not able to give specific areas where he lived, but generalized she generalized stuff. She said she couldn't give us an exact address, but knew he had lived in Washington, New Jersey, which he had. She couldn't give a specific information on an address, but she knew that he had been arrested in Mount Olive Township, which he had. Coincidentally, she came up with the information as they were driving by.
The very spot he was arrested was because they knew where he was arrested and they went actually he was arrested right fucking there where we just past also arrested.
She knows too much. She knows too much. She killed these girls. She obviously killed these girls. This was Mount Olive on Route 206, had a roller rink. We were this is the cop we were driving by the roller rink coming up on two oh six. And she got a feeling. She said he's been arrested here before Mt. Olive Township a long while ago, a while back. And that was right when they were passing the spot. He was arrested as a teenager.
That is unbelievable. That's fucking creepy. Now, there's a couple discrepancies later on where the cops will be like she actually said this and that, but it's pretty close to this. If we have time, we'll get into any. Think near that I'm blown away. That's what I mean, there, there. There's a thing that's trying to debunk the whole thing, which I'm not real into psychics either, but saying, like, really parsing the details of what she's saying, what the cop said.
She said it's still really freaky.
It's fucking freaky saying he's from down south and got arrested down there. Murder. That's enough. Former done there.
The rap, I believe anything. That's it. And then the very part she came that they passed by. Yeah. So December 8th, nineteen eighty two, there's a report of another abduction. And let me show you a map here. Amy Hoffman here, Darija O'Brien over there. And this latest one is directly right in between them. Right in between them at Hanover Avenue. God damn it. So that's what they're thinking. They say a police responded to the report of an abduction report of a woman was reportedly witnessed being wrestled by a white male with brown hair wearing a brown coat and to a brown Ford Pinto just all brown in a secluded Morris Plains Street.
The according to the reports, a bystander approached the woman and her assailant, at which point the assailant pulled the knife. Police operator later reported that their radio on the radio that both the bystander and the woman were missing. But this turns out to be a hoax. The whole thing turns out to be a hoax. There's all these rumors. People are freaking the fuck out now. It's like mugging because it's you know, they said it's a woman being wrestled away and it was a fake news story.
Somebody just made it up, cocksucker. Somebody made it up. And why would you do that? To cause the same reason you'd put blue road flares up balloons to make people think there's a UFO. If you slam your fucking head in a refrigerator door and call it a day, I'm your nut sack and a refrigerator door. Never mind your head. You'll be more distracted by your nut sack pain and have no time for this. Buckcherry, blow out the pilot light and slam your head in your oven.
There you go. That's a fucking asshole. And then you're cock. I hate you. So the police chief here said, quote, I assume if there are another murder committed, I would be notified. I have no such information. So if anyone would know it's me. So I think it's fucking false, they said. Despite what observers believe are remarkable similarities, they say there's still there's still not positive that Deirdra and Amy were killed by the same person.
Now, around this area, there were other killings to October 1st.
This this one is before he was even out of jail. Christopher Thomas, who was 16 years old, was shot while walking into the Rockaway Town Square Mall. Police are looking for a white male, about five nine with dark shoulder length hair, possibly a wig and a mustache, which sort of fits his description. But he's not out of jail yet. It's also not Kalinda. No, and he's not out of jail. Then there's another one, though.
While you don't know what what his pattern is, though, this is October twenty first. This is three days after his home in Morristown, James R. Westco, thirty four, was stabbed in the early morning at the Madison train station. Police recovered a blood stained fish falling knife three hundred yards from the station. No suspect has ever been found. So who knows?
At this point, people start putting up rewards. The Daily Record gives one thousand dollars to the Amy Memorial Fund. The donation raises the fund to about three thousand dollars. The family is very thankful. And basically they're asking the parents, do you you know, do you not like this area now because your kid got killed and they were saying how? No, they're so happy that people are so nice to them and, you know, their people are caring.
December twenty third, there's twenty one thousand dollars in rewards from the friends of the O'Brien family for Deirdre's recovery or whatever donations from three local residents here. There was originally ten thousand dollars and then they brought it up to twenty thousand and then somebody else put a thousand dollars. And the lawyer said, we don't know how much it will take to elicit the kind of information needed for an arrest or conviction. But we intend to continue our our efforts to increase the reward fund.
You shouldn't need a reward to to get a murdering.
If you know the talking woman killing rapist off the streets, you know what does that.
Yeah, you should you should willingly just do that without money, I would say. Absolutely.
And the surprise store at the Morris County Mall also posted a five thousand dollar reward for the four other shit up the driver. Yeah, whoever set up the toilet. And if they also find out who killed Amy and they set up the toilet, it's ten thousand.
So obviously, fear is just this has exploded with fear saturated. They said the stores found that women were not doing Christmas shopping at night anymore, not by themselves. Husbands were were calling home from work four times a day for if they had housewives to make sure their wives were still alive. Women had candlelight marches through Morris County to show concern over the attacks. I mean, it was it was this was no shit. The Morris County Mall, a chapter of the Guardian Angels, came down awesome to walk.
People to their car, fucking douche bag, I can't now. Curtis, what's his name? I sleep. Yeah, I can't with those people. I can't. I just fucking can't. I get it. I get it. There are some good and some bad. But the second you're putting on some crazy outfit and going on TV. Yeah. You've ended it for me. Going on Donahue about it you asshole. Yeah. You should have just said nope.
We're doing our job out here then. I would have said try it. Yeah. But they were also there was a lot of questions.
It was all about them and they were they were criminals too.
Right. There were some questionable stuff going on.
But anyway, they were they were walking people to their cars. Nice. Basically, a lot of they brought like a lot of big guys down there. They said things about that big giant dudes walking women to their cars there. They said there was about ten members of the group that operated from about six to nine p.m.. Yeah. And then, you know, maybe if there was a few employees to. So January 5th. Nineteen eighty three. A 28 year old woman named Judy Brown, a telephone company employee, is shotgunned to death in this area, as well as Keith Hanover Township.
Yeah, she's shotgunned to death.
And they're wondering, is this is this related? I don't know. It's similar, but it's not a it's not a knife. But I mean, maybe you'd switch it up if you did that. I'd talk to the husband about that one. Yeah, that's possibly I'd see if I checked the life insurance policy. Where's he then? January 18th. Nineteen eighty three. So that's almost two months after Amy disappeared. A month and a half after Deirdre is gone.
Yeah. James here James called touchier JJ JJ at 11 a.m. or eleven twenty pm that day, January the sixteenth. Nineteen eighty three. I'm sorry. Patrolman Kevin Dormer responds to a call from forty four Harrison Street in Morristown. He enters the house. He sees JJ leaning against the kitchen table with his t shirt rolled up and Julia Baldwin, whose his mother was washing a wound on his back. Now, JJ told police he'd been driving home on Route twenty four when he'd been pulled over by a car with a flashing blue light.
And he was tall and he said that the driver of the car had stabbed him and then he got away. What? Yes, he's taken by ambulance to the hospital. The sergeant, another sergeant, also comes to the car. He instructs police officers at the scene to secure JTS clothing and car just in case as possible evidence leading to the arrest of his assailant. So I maybe left a fingerprint on the car. Who knows? He could have touched the door.
Absolutely. No, no hair could have fallen off something. So due to the similarities in the alleged attack on the on him and the similarities between that and the Hoffman and O'Brien abductions, the detective here who's also investigating the O'Brien murder gets called into the police garage to supervise collection of evidence related to the stabbing. OK, so he inspects Kota JSX car. He realizes that the tread pattern is not only similar, but identical to the one made at the impression of the scene of Deirdre O'Brien's abduction.
Identical and a comparison of the tire tread with the sketch and a photograph confirmed it to be perfect. So he was right. He just had a good eye for it.
So they notify the prosecutor's office in the state police that maybe we might have something weird here. A search warrant is obtained for the 1970 Chevrolet. They remove a tire, take it to the lab for extraction of possible fiber evidence or anything like that. The seat cover is removed in the interior is vacuumed. Lab personnel also removed samples of the car's carpet. The seat cover in the carpet were taken to the FBI lab in Washington, D.C. for analysis. Yeah.
Now he insists that he was pulled off the road by a car with flashing blue lights. And they said, well, where did this happen? And he pointed out the exact spot where Deidre O'Brien had been pushed off the road. So he's trying. Yeah, that's what he's saying.
So he's trying to build it like the similarities. He doesn't realize that he's the one himself had seen.
They weren't even looking for him, do? Yeah. They weren't even looking at him. That's how it's eating them up. He says that he's forced off the road, stabbed the man in the back by a man who got out of the car that was following him. They said when they spoke to him, he was very calm, unlike a man who had just been pulled off the road and attacked by a stranger with a knife, stab and stab wound back.
A pathologist who's an expert in stab wounds examine the tears in his clothing and the wounds and found that he had stabbed himself. Yeah, they don't want he stabbed himself in the back. And yeah, after that, he said he was they checked his car for evidence and all this sort of shit. Tests show that fibers found on Miss Hoffman's clothes were identical to the fibers found in the carpet of the car. In the seat covers bits of foam rubber found on her boots were identical to the foam rubber from the backing of the seat in his car at the back of his back seat from the trunk.
Yeah, yeah, she was kicking it. So. Yeah, so. He's arrested only for Deirdre's murder right now, arrested for Deirdre's murder. Yeah, this is ridiculous, though.
He did it right there. Like, how obvious fucking be you dumb shit that's just so stupid. Yeah, they said that he thanked the police, thanked everybody for their witnesses and all that sort of stuff. Thank you.
We thank the murderer for giving us all. He literally called us to his house to fuck him, to come get him. Like, how stupid is that? Holy shit. Took 12 hours of talking to him before they ended up arresting him. He does not confess, though. No, no confession out of him. They said that they checked the scene, the vehicle, and that's how they found out what they're doing here. They described him as a, quote, native of Morris County, and they said he's remanded on a two hundred and fifty thousand dollar bail, which it should be, I would assume 250 bazilian.
Yeah. I mean, whatever however much you want to put now, there's witnesses here, Mrs. Helen Kaito. She says that in mid-November in nineteen eighty two, she stopped at the Morris County Mall at about three o'clock to do some shopping. She remembered it was a Monday because she visited that that the friend that she visited each day that each every Monday. So she said it was a sunny day. She parked her car and was smoking a cigarette and listening to the radio in the parking lot when she just hang him in the mall parking lot smoking a cigarette in the car.
I've done it. Wow. I lived it as a teenager. She said that she heard a loud voice at that point. She saw a man and a young woman walking from the mall toward her vehicle. She recognized the young woman as Amy Hoffman, a cashier at the surprise store because she'd been in there. The man, she says, was Jimmy Jr. here, who was in the room with Mrs. Kato here. Later on when she says this, she described him as, quote, had a quote, face like a hawk, was wearing blue and white sneakers, blue jeans and a denim jacket.
She said he looked familiar. He she later realized that when he was a young man, he had been to her house with her teenage daughter in the mid 1960s. Jeez. Yeah. As she said as they approached the car, Mrs. Kaido heard him say loudly, Come here, come here, goddammit. I said, come here. I'll kill you at Amy. So she said the woman was unresponsive Amy at first, but became flustered and dropped the book.
She was carrying what she had her books with her. She picked them up, stumbled and jogged away from the man. And that's all she didn't think to go fucking follow that. I just ran that fucking guy over in my car and he's chasing her on foot. I am running that guy. I'm literally going to get behind him. Beep And I'm going to run you over if you don't stop chasing that woman. I swear to fuck, dude, I'm going to hit the gas.
You're going over my windshield. You stop. This is like carry guns today. You better stop and explain yourself. What are you going to shoot the guy then? You're going to prison. He hasn't done anything to shoot him right away. Anything you do with a gun, you're going to jail.
Go to jail for it if I save the woman's life. But what if you didn't I. Well, what if you didn't? What if they were playing around? You're in prison, never going to die.
You know, you should do you should call the baronova over. You're going to jail. So who you get paid? No, I threaten to run them over. Hey, beep, beep. I'm going to run you over, dude. I feel like that would be like, no, I maybe I'll stop that now. I don't know.
You can't. But he does.
So you're less likely to go to jail for threatening someone with your car than a gun. But both. But not not for the one is only a weapon. One is you really have to want it to be put it that way.
So now Amy's friend, Cristina Gonzalez, she said she was the one that was with her. She said before that she said that she didn't approach the police till after initially, after initially because she had never seen pictures of James J. She said that while she while all this was going on, she suddenly realized that she recognized him as a man she'd seen many times at the mall. Yeah, James J. She said that four times in September and October, she'd noticed a man with a very long face, high cheekbones, brownish hair and one or two days growth of beard standing outside the station there.
And that she said that that that was him, basically. So she's been hanging out looking at her basically, is what she's saying.
So the lady that saw this all happen, she just saw him in the mall wandering around. And that was that was weird. Yeah. Keep going. There's a lot of weirdoes that hang around a Morphos. That's not the one in the parking lot. OK, lady in the parking lot. That's that's my point. I'll kill you like. All right, now get involved. That was a weird night.
Yeah. Get the hell out of here. Jesus Christ. Yeah. So then there's a woman named Diana Bossard. She says that she stopped in the mall in October, mid-October. Eighty two stopped at the mall to do some clothes shopping. Once in the mall, she looked for clothes and Bradlees, the fashion bug and the surprise store as well, where Amy works. After she entered the surprise store at eight forty five, she walked to the back of the store and saw her words, not mine, quote, a young oriental.
They are all with long hair being talked to in a loud voice by an unkempt, older looking man. What the fuck? Many people seeing this, the man who is tall and thin had dirty, blond, brownish hair, a thin face with high cheekbones, bone, several days worth of growth of beard was speaking in a loud voice about dirt bikes.
I'm going to go to the mall and yell at the chick who works at the closed store about dirt bikes and try to impress the young girl. What, the ride? A motorbike.
What are you talking about of in the woods? You want to see it? It's a two-stroke. OK, it's so loud. It smells great when it's run. I don't understand it. It's not funny, but it's fucking ridiculous. What kind of she said that the girl was not taking part in the conversation.
She was basically basically like he's like the crazy guy who comes in the mall and yells at people and everybody knows to just ignore him and he'll go away. That's kind of what it seems like is after several minutes in the store, this woman said she left without purchasing anything. She then later on when she saw a picture, she identified the girl as Amy Hoffman and the man as, of course, Jimmy Jay here.
Now, items seized as well during the search warrant at his house. First is a photo album Jimmy Jay had on his nightstand. The last five pictures in the last five pages consisted of pictures of, quote, Oriental looking women. Wow. That's a different one. Just pictures, I think. Yeah. Next to his bed on his nightstand. The second item was a letter addressed to him from Japan. International and enclosed were three more pictures of Asian women.
What? So he's got he's ordering away for pictures of Asian women. Lord. Yeah. The state's theory here is that this demonstrates his interest in Asian women and explained that everybody here why he pursued Amy Hoffman over other women, Amy, of course, who is obviously Asian. So, yeah, they ended up the court, though, will not let that in at trial.
They exclude that as no facts to support the contention that he wanted to have sex with her or to abduct her because he was sexually attracted specifically to Asian females, which if he what more do you need?
He did rape her.
So that means I would say that means he probably that's why he picked her up. Right, dude. Lotion and a button and a pile of tissues. That's what I'm saying. He obviously whacks at the age and she loves it. She's in the nightstand. He raped her and killed her. It's pretty how he puts himself to bed. Here he is, by the way, Jimmy, would you like to see a picture of the devil? There he is.
Yeah. So, yeah, he's got like one of those awful beard, awful beards. And a bad face is just a bad looking guy.
Fucking beard looks like pubic hair. It's it does. It's a terrible fear.
It's all week in the Cejka no good week in the week in the cheek connected on that on the side of his mouth. His cheeks are weak and the chins even spaced apart as you got good. You can't have weak cheek beard. You have to have your beard. Your cheeks have to be full. You can get away with some shit in the metal, but your cheeks got to be full. He looks like Shane from love. After luck, he looks exactly that beard is exactly like some shape.
It looks a look at his face. The rectangle go. He's losing his hair. This is, by the way, that portion alone, even though he is twenty two high when he's twenty five, he's going to have no hair. Yeah, none. He's got four years and you see like he's got big shoes and I'm like wow and evil thing.
I tried to pull it all up. It's really then in the places where it is there too. It's all good then I'm like well not good. You are in for not good at all bad. And you wanted to have three kids with this woman ball by the time he's twenty two and a half. Oh God yeah. He's like maybe three kids. She won't leave me when I go bald later. Six months into the pregnancy you're going to have no hair.
None. So the trial comes in October. Eighty four. Now he's arrested for Deirdre's murder first, but then they charge him with Amys. The trial is Amy's trial first trial for Amy. Now they lay out the first part is microscopic evidence. Obviously, they say that after he was, quote unquote, attacked, they checked his car, they did tests.
They found the fibers I told you about foam rubber on the boots to the backing of the seat, everything like that. Second part was testimony from eyewitnesses who saw a man who saw him and saw a car that looked like his near places where Miss Hoffman had been seen all the time. They think she was he was stalking her. Possibly he's a predator.
Yeah. At the end of the day, at the end of the case, the prosecutor says when all the evidence is in, I will ask you to find this man guilty of murder. The his lawyer, though, says there's more to the story than they're putting forth. This whole case is based on innuendo. It's based on inconclusive evidence. He says yes. So Harold, a Dedman of Washington, he's the FBI forensic specialist on fiber comparisons. He testifies here to show all the so inconclusive that fibers from the car were similar to were similar to some found on her skirt.
Another expert from the defense said the fibers were too common to be sure where the whether they came from the car or not, because it's a Chevrolet carpet. Now, there is trial transcripts here that I have of, like I. Can tell you, they said, like this particular skirt company puts out four hundred thousand yards of this particular fabric, which regions they go to, what to the odds of what to do? Dude, we could go on for three hours on the odds of that fiber being in his trunk are so slim.
That's the thing we could do. They're just saying the fibers comments might not have come from the skirt, could have come from anywhere. But why is it anyway, so we could do like a two hour bonus episode on just the trial, the forensics and then fiber evidence? I'm not even shedding you. If anyone was interested. We do it, but we're not. So we'll get through the story of the defense here. This is their arguments, number one, that he doesn't match the description given by witnesses as he was not blonde and had a and a beard and mustache.
He had to they said one state witness was simply mistaken and had overreacted, perhaps subconsciously, to the publicity surrounding the case.
So later on, they were, you know, they realized false, you know, a false recollection. The that night, he said he had an alibi. He'd been home playing Atari games with his little brother.
So lock, stock and barrel alibi there you're in. And no for that. Fiber and foam correlations proved nothing. And that number five, convincing evidence existed that the murder had been committed by another, namely, Kevin Sheehan, an assistant football coach at the high school that Amy attended. Oh, yeah. We'll get to that in a second here. So the they they have to fight to try to get that evidence in. They want to introduce that alternate suspect.
But the judge will not allow it because it's testimony about this guy, Kevin Sheehan, saying that Carroll speak, a friend of Amy's said that she knew she had and that he had made obscene phone calls to a payphone near the cheerleaders locker room.
That's what it was. Gross. She recalled answering the phone on several occasions. On each occasion, the male voice asked for Miss Beth Thomas, a fellow cheerleader. On none of the occasions to the male caller, Ask for misspeak or Amy misspeak testified that she never actually heard the caller utter obscenities over the phone. She also said that she did not associate the man's voice with anyone and that she did not recognize the voice as the voice of the football coach.
So she said that she had known Mr. Shihan since the time he began working at the school as a coach. She said, however, that she never saw him observing her or Amy. She also said that she did not become aware of Mr. she had that he was the person responsible for the phone calls until after Amy had died.
So they also said they said that's inadmissible and hearsay and doesn't help any. So they said there's no casual connection or link between the fact that she took two calls in a telephone booth outside the cheerleaders locker room and the death of Amy Hoffman or her apprehension or kidnapping or anything of that nature. A man called for somebody else.
A few tie him. Yeah, it's got to be that he must have killed her and another woman to have nothing to do with the school, nothing to do with anything.
So she also said the speaker said that Amy lived alone for a little while, for about a month while her parents were setting up because their parents end up moving down to Virginia. So they were like setting up the move. So she was alone for about a month and that she held at least two large unsupervised parties. Will Rogers. Oh, boy, she could have been anybody. So this asshole attorney, this defense attorney argued that he wanted to show, quote, that the party lifestyle made Amy Hoffman a murder target.
OK, yeah. Because she had a high school party. That means she's going to be kidnapped from a mall stuffed in a trunk, stabbed, raped and thrown in a fucking over retention wall in a house.
Yeah, that's a right. That's a little bit of a reach. Oh, boy. Come on, man, that's insane. He might as well have said she had a skirt on.
I mean, Christ, what people want. She's an Asian with a skirt. Has anyone going to resist it? You know what? I'm sorry. She had purple panties. Yeah, not that is cowboy boots and everything. You know that.
It's like, what an asshole fucking shark man right now this is what he says.
She had beer with kids.
Oh, no, I'm telling you, James, no, I don't think this is what his lawyer says in open in open court, in front of people to people.
Other people have been the law school, too. He said words to them, wow.
Quote, Well, reporters write it down to quote, Right now before the jury, I have a wholesome cheerleader who's the victim of a crime. I want to show she's like any other teenager. She's going to buy beer and she's and she could have an affair with a football coach. No fucking indication of any affair with any football coach.
Did he just say that all high school girls fucked the football just like any other girl? She's going to buy beer. She might have had an affair at the football coach basically just said, just like any teenage girl, she's asking for it. And it happens that a drunk, loose woman, we got shower showers. I mean, she was two seconds away from. Just walking the streets, selling arrest. I mean, what do you want? We think she might have had a crack habit.
We're just saying we don't know she was freebasing all over the place. I wonder what an asshole this guy is.
I mean, this is you have to I feel bad for for a defense attorney in this case because he is saddled with something that's fucked. What do you do besides go put through your humanity out there window? How do you do that? That's just how do you how do you trash. Yeah. And if that's the approach your client wants to take, you go, no, I can't do it in front of a jury. Disbar. Just there's people just don't do that.
You wouldn't say. I could never say that in front of a roomful of people. I would feel disgusting.
I know a mother. Could we strike that judge? Can you tell them to strike? And I know I'm not allowed to. I know I can't. I'm not allowed to strike that. I also am not allowed at Thanksgiving dinner now because my mother is going to disown me. No shit. Jesus for what I just said. So Florence Hoffman had to testify, Mom. Right. She had to testify, crying through the whole thing. Poor woman talking about how she had talked to her the day before a lot because she stayed home from school and all that sort of thing.
She was breaking down repeatedly on the witness stand. James Jayjay here was basically staring right at her through her whole testimony, burning holes through while he she wouldn't make eye contact with him because she's a nice woman. Yeah. She testified and everything, you know, to what happened, what I described before. Now, there's another thing that he wants to be introduced. James Jay in the court. That is a call from a quote unquote, I'm using air quotes, psychiatrist that came in to the police station.
Listen to how ridiculous this is. This is a month before he's arrested. By the way, the defense seeks to introduce the testimony of a lieutenant, Raymond DiBiase of the Morristown Police Department, who received a phone call on December 14th. Nineteen eighty two from what he called a, quote, self professed psychiatrist who said that he had a patient, a construction worker who might have committed the murder and that his patient had been attracted to, quote, Oriental women who had continually rebuked him.
So they said this argue this obviously raises the possibility that this was another guy there. So the judge goes.
It could also have been him calling the fucking cops because he called the cops, trying to throw them off for the other thing. So why why would this be real? Right. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's all he's trying to he put that out. Nothing happened. So he's like, OK, what do I do now? I'm going, why would you do that? What a jackass. Also his stepbrother. There's a bunch of other they there is witnesses.
They call like ten different witnesses, four days talking about whether he had a beard or not, literally his mother saying he had two days worth of growth on this day, but then on Thanksgiving he had no beard or he had a beard. He and then they say they had no beard. So how could he have grown a beard in three days like they go back and forth on the beard like crazy? Or is that something that someone could see a few great days of growth as more of a beard or less of a beard?
That's an arbitrary thing. The dark two or quickly. Sometimes you trim it. I mean I mean, one could say you have a beard right now. Yes, double. But that's definitely a beard. He could start a one. That's what I mean. Yeah. And I've got two weeks worth on my face at the moment. It's a lot of beard.
Yeah. But if someone said big long beard, he had a short beard. I could say it's a long beard. Yeah. For me it's a long game.
So who knows. Depends on what long is. Imagine that in court for three hours with multiple people. That's why we're not going over it. And it's to be a juror sitting on that fucking painful edit. There was a hair on his face. Oh, my God. So this is David Paul Baldwin. It's a step brother. He goes to high school and lives at home. He said that I said JJ and him, they said that he had a beard that fall.
And on the night in question, he was upstairs at home playing Atari most of the evening, at least until nine o'clock, which doesn't matter because the fucking abduction happened at nine forty five. So if he'd played, he could play Atari till nine and then go out and, you know, act out as asteroids fantasy. I have no idea whatever it is. Finally, though, he also testified that the sneaker seized in the search of the house associated with him by a witness were actually a Christmas gift to him in December.
So they couldn't have been that mistaken. Shoes verdict comes in. Jury deliberates for eleven hours here and they were there. Charge there. They retired eleven twenty. I am while deliberating, they request testimony of a bunch of people than a bizarre Christine Gonzales, Helen Kaito, Timothy O'Grady, a bunch of all those witnesses. Basically, they also requested the testimony of Florence Hoffman regarding Amy's whereabouts, blah, blah, blah. They come back after those hours and find him guilty on all counts murder, kidnapping, aggravated sexual assault, unlawful possession of a weapon with intent to kill a whole deal.
Sentencing comes around here, the aggregate.
Aggravating factors are going to the death penalty on him, lethal injection all the way, one that the defendant had been previously convicted of murder that he had, which was second degree murder in Florida, that the murder was committed while he was engaged in the commission of flight or the commission of a sexual assault or kidnapping, which he was, and that the murder was committed for the purpose of escaping detection and that the murder was outrageously and wantonly vile, if any murders outrageously and wantonly vile.
I put these two up there and answer them right at the top of the list of basically anyone, anything that you could do to someone over 18. This is as bad as it gets. The only way to go worse would be to be younger. I'd be the only way. We're all a lot, lot older. One of the two. Or do it longer, longer or have the person be eighty five or seven. One of those. That would be the only way.
It would be worse even. That's obviously subjective.
So the jury here is the same jury by the way, four and a half hours of discussion on that. And they say let's see here. You sir, may fuck off death penalty for you, sir. Yeah.
Death penalty plus a 30 year prison term with a 15 year period of parole and eligibility on the kidnapping count and a concurrent 20 year term with 10 years of parole and eligibility for aggravated sexual assault sentences to run consecutively to the sentence for murder should the death penalty, death penalty be overturned. Got it. So if it's overturned and he gets life, he's got another twenty five years. And then before everything, before any possibility of parole on top of whatever his murder sentence with.
Right. So even if they say the murder, they just watched the whole sentence off. He's still got twenty five years with no parole. Good. So it's a good deal here. Also he has to pay levied a fine of one thousand fifty dollars to payable to the Violent Crimes Compensation Board. His brother here, Jay's brother Jeff, said, quote, I'm very surprised with the verdict. Are you how are you really? He said that his brother definitely had a beard at the time of the murder and that the sperm and pubic hair found on the victim do not match those of his brother, even though every science that we've looked at says they do.
But there's no DNA.
Yeah, so they're matching types. And this is all very black and curly. Could be anybody could be at it literally.
And it's it matches his, you know, its characteristics is what they would do. April. Eighty five trial for daedra here. And I don't mean to cut her short, but it's a lot of the same thing. It's it's they testify evidence through the murder, tire tracks, paint chips, traces of fibers, all this same sort of shit. Basically very familiar to the first trial. They have the truck drivers testify. The defense says the fact that there's no blood in the defendant's car creates reasonable doubt, which not really because he the gravitation is the murder after they pulled them out of the car and murdered.
That's exactly what happened. Yeah, he said a quote, I don't know why Deidre O'Brien was murdered. I'm just getting it out in front of you, ladies and gentlemen, that these facts exist. What facts are those? The fact that he's trying to say Deirdre O'Brien was into cocaine and someone would have killed her for that. He said that the woman was carrying two vials containing traces of cocaine and a spoon used to sniff cocaine. And he wanted that admitted into court.
And they were like, for what, spoon to sniff cocaine?
Little the little things that lead. Oh, the little guy and the little guy who said a little glass jar. Yeah, that's that's early 80s style. He's talking like a like in desserts, like a table like really getting eaten a bowl of Froot Loops.
Then it was hard. So yeah.
They said that the lawyer says the defendant definitely did not kill this girl. God forbid there's no incriminating evidence, although he knew exactly where she was pulled over when he was fake, the exact same thing that happened to her. You know, it's so it's kind of a big deal. Big deal here. That's as good a good as circumstantial evidence as I'm going to get. There is no the chances of him picking out. Exactly, just for shits and giggles are zero point zero zero zero.
The psychic wasn't even that close. Right? I mean, the prosecutor says everything points to this idiot over here. He might as well have a sign saying, I murdered Deirdre O'Brien because that's what it points to. You might as well have a sign saying, I murdered her. Verdict comes in my pocket, guilty. So guilty. They just want to kick him in the balls. They find him guilty, but they cannot sentencing. They cannot agree unanimously on the death penalty.
So he draws you, sir, a fuck off life imprisonment with no chance of parole for 30 years. So that is fifty five years so far. And a death penalty with no se stacking it pretty good.
He's really making a mountain for himself. He's not climbing out of that.
The judge called him, quote, evil, depraved and dangerous. Yeah. Yeah. Eighty seven. Amy's parents sue the. Mall and get three hundred and fifteen thousand dollars from a premium for lack of security. Brilliant, great. You should have some goddamn security. Now, he appeals the Amy thing, a thing, the conviction. He appeals it and they hold that there was a bad there was a basically the instructions on the death penalty weren't good.
They say that he it was reversible error. They charge the jury that mitigating factors must outweigh the aggravating factors in order to them to not impose the death penalty, which isn't true. They just need to have some that they can weigh not outweigh. So that said, they they tossed his death sentence. Remand him for a new sentencing September nineteen eighty eight state says we're going to go for the death penalty again. This guy, 1990, new sentencing.
You, sir, again, may fuck off life in prison, this time without life with. OK, but it's not until whatever. Thirty years or something. So he's in prison January 2011. He wants a transfer so to Illinois so he could be closer to his family, to Joliet. I don't know where the hell he wants to. He wants to bubble blowers. He want to go, I don't know, somewhere in Illinois doesn't say to be closer to relatives and they say probably improves his chances of escape.
So now fuck you. And it pissed the family off big time that he was even asking for it. They went hard at the state like you do not fucking give him shit.
Don't get him near and dear to Bryan's parents are pretty power there. They got money.
So that's they were pushing February twenty eighteen way up right up till now. The families of the victims were bludgeoned. Yeah, yeah. Keith Olbermann, his fans, they don't keep him out of Illinois.
They throw him out. No, we don't want him in Illinois. He wants his DNA tested. He says, oh, that's ballsy. He says, I want my my DNA tested. He's been convicted twice here. He said he will prove that he didn't rape and murder her. The Morris County prosecutor's office located five microscopic slides. Remember how I mentioned microscopic slides, do you think? I mentioned nothing, Jimmy.
Not none of them containing sperm cells recovered from the body of Amy Hoffman. The slides are in the possession of the medical examiner's office. Now, the superior court judge signed an order calling for them to do it. He's got the right to ask for this. The they need the presence of intact sperm cells. The state police unit cannot take any other steps other than examination without a court order. And yes, so he says he requests the DNA in 2013.
There's a law that in 2013 that allows him to request this prominent victim's rights advocate who's in touch with the Kaufmann family said he's got nothing else to do in prison. One of the many jailhouse lawyers put this idea and it was had October twenty eighteen. The state police lab attempts to test one slide, but because not not enough material is there to create a profile to be extracted, it could not be compared with his DNA. So he was brought into court and he has one single remaining slide left that they don't know.
So he doesn't want it tested because he doesn't want it to be destroyed, apparently. So he does want to go to the Innocence Project, though, so he asked them to help him. And he wants help finding an independent lab to test the slide. Someone better than the medical examiner. OK, if the lab is found, that is acceptable. They said he his lawyer said he might renew his motion to have the semen sample tested. Innocence Project guy said that he they they don't comment on individual cases unless they commit to working on them.
Obviously, the judge said, I don't think there's closure in these circumstances or in any circumstances where there's a violent crime involving the death of a child. Be that as it may, as far as I'm concerned at this point in time, the case is closed. Keep fucking off. Yeah.
So I'm so nervous he does not want her on either of these girls being sexually active and having sex with somebody else now banking on. That's what I mean. I don't know. I think he's got to just be looking for attention or something because he definitely he did this. He did this. So, yeah, the other guy said, quote, I the prosecutor, I don't see any validity or possibility for code attach, but he's taking shots of the dark.
He's got nothing else to do in present. So quickly here, James O'Brien, that's Deirdre's father. Ten years after her death, her father became a leading crusader for crime victims rights and helped write and advocate for crime victim victims rights amendment to the New York New Jersey state constitution, which was passed by approval of voters hero stuff. Yeah, so in memory of his daughter, the Deirdre's parents found a Deirdre's house formally. Deirdre O'Brien, Child Advocacy Center in Morristown, New Jersey, a facility with which assists child victims of violence and witnesses to domestic abuse.
There's still active. Looks like a really great thing. It's Deirdre DEA i r d r.
S house dog seems like a good thing to me. It's a tough name to say, Deirdre. I can't do Deirdre's house, Deirdre. We don't know where Amy is buried. We don't have any information that kept that private. Deirdre's at the Hilltop Cemetery in Mendham in Morris County, New Jersey, and James is in prison at this point. He is eligible for parole on January twenty seventh, ninety or twenty thirty eight when he is six months shy of his 90th birthday.
He's eligible. So good luck and good luck.
You that long 90 and nobody's now it's a bad stuff. So here is by the way, I won't go over it, but this is all the psychic stuff where they were like she said really that his name be had a hard case and maybe she said it started with K, but she said he was Eastern European, not specifically Polish. It's pretty cool. That's what you do. That's what I'm saying. It was like she said, it's got a K and that he's from Eastern Europe.
That's all she said. Yeah. And he said that I think she said it ended with an issue, not an H also like stuff like those like, dude, could you say that. That's amazing. She said quote, She said he was Czech or Polish. And he says that she said more or more vague, quote, Eastern European descent, maybe Slavic or Russian or Romanian. These are really splitting hairs. I mean, that's pretty.
I'm I'm impressed. That's pretty good. I don't know if I believe any psychic shit, but I'm certainly impressed. That's pretty impressive. That is Hanover Township, New Jersey, really Morristown and all that sort of stuff. New Jersey. And that's honestly one of the most disturbing fucking people ever. That's a that's a it's a bad man. That's a monster and a predator. You don't have to know him. He just has to find you and hunt you.
Basically, whether you're at work where you think you're safe, you're in your car driving a mile from your house. Right. And he will like this is scary shit. My son likes to go on bike rides around the neighborhood, my daughter, and then he likes to ditch her and thinks it's funny.
Yeah, no, no mother fucker. Yeah, I'll choke you. Listen to this and listen what happened. You know what happens. They disappear. Yeah. You never get them back.
Absolutely. If you agree or if you don't agree either way, tell us about it. Apple podcast, that purple icon. We need the reviews. They help. Well, we don't need them, but they help a lot. They help drive us up the charts, so why not help us out? It's free now. Are you going to do give us five stars, say something. We don't give a shit what you say. Say how much you hated this guy.
That's fine. He's off. Say something about nineteen seventy Chevrolet tire tread. But don't just say JJ sucks because then people think. Do you think it's ok. Yeah. Yeah it's bad. Something Polish. So I love that from night shift. The name of the deceased. Something Polish. Great movie.
So anyway do all of that. Thank you for doing that. Head over to shut up and give me murder.
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This week on small town murder. We are going to be doing the worst town reviews I can find, basically. And that's going to be so much fun, finding awful town reviews and piecing them together and on and on. Crime and sports is we're going to do the UW AFF, which was a defunct wrestling company that was run by a lunatic Coke addict maniac. And we'll talk about his very short run and very, very colorful death. We'll call it very unique and colorful death that he had.
Abrams, Abramson, the wife that's crime and sports worst town reviews I can possibly cultivate on small town murder, you get all of that and patrie on dotcom slash crime and sports. And Jamiel mispronounced her name. If you just want to be a great person and be a producer and have your name mispronounced, very easy way to do that. Also over at people using our email address, crime and sports at Gmail dot com. That said, Jimmy, dammit, I need you need to hear the names of these people as I was just a lot of crazy stuff.
I need to hear good stuff. Hit me with the names of all the good stuff.
Jimmy, this week's executive producers are Haley Coleman, Rick Giuliani, Danielle Guerrouj, Jordan Bennett, Peter Chapman, Laura Howard, Jacob Magyars, Drew Bitner, Aaron Sayer, Kyle Warez, Debbie Shaley, Karen Krank, Laura Aguilar, Teresa Cheatham, Donette, Perry, Peter, Mazzy, Mazzy, Maz.
And it is Joshua Brassard and Rebecca Ruíz. Hey that is. Thank you so much. Truly. Other producers this week are James Marter, Peyton Meadows, Carl Kershner, Michelle Lockard, Gary Friedman, Zachary Boonie, Bunya, Banir, Tracy, Poets Ali and Roy and Shane. In North Carolina, Rabbi Shmuley Olivea, Dina McCord Bacon Beeb's Boutique Back and I forget it's Tanner McCutcheon's boutique.
Oh, does she make baby clothes. Oh, cool car. Lisa Tucker. No, not bacon. I think it's back and it might be bacon. It might be the towns you. I don't I don't know. It's the Babe's boutique is what it is. Lisa, Lisa Tucker, Tara, Tara Lathan. Samantha Anderson. William Chisholm, Maria Grasper. Joanne A'Hearn. Brook Cale. Janice Hill. Suzanna Platt. Patricia Winter. Winter Bauer. Kelly nope.
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Jesus Alli Rydal. Monica OLeary. Collette Ciarlante. Tiffany Gizab. Charles Hardin. Mac would no last name. Tara Bennett. Lendale Lloyd. Robin Harris. James Anthony Hakala. Nicole Van Knowland. Newland Zealand Nuland. Liz Emax. Noah Tolbert. Jay Hawkins Anders. Ronda's Hansen. It's probably Anders, right? I don't know. Workaholics. It was on April one. No last name.
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Katie, what could Sweetie Gentry miss, Mr. or Mrs. Gentry. That's all is Sarah Corvex, Egil, John Gulley, Jasmine Few's. Niger Clifton. That's tough. Joseph Samuel, TJ Vega, Jessica Wall Kowalsky Cobra Clutch. Christine Hearing. John Myles, Charles Peterson, Carlos Fuentes, Janine M Andy Geshe Tounkara. Crystal Auvi-Q. Crystal Reed. Amy Whitehouse. Jason Kovack, A'Lelia Alcaide. Nope. Shane from Detroit. Shannah House N'goni. Arnold, what did you want to say to me to say.
I was just about to say I don't want to I don't want to spook you, but you're doing really well. And just as I open my mouth, if I. Leili Al-Qadi. Yeah. All right.
Rondeau with no last name. Lilly Kyrie Kyrie UNin fart. What the fuck. Meghan Barr sounds great. William VALENZA, Chloe Scott Ryan Ryan Gafney, Timothy Timothy Smith Shelby and Brad Swagel. Harrison Lee. Heidi Howzat. Jack Cornealious Chilian Leif Kagen Brad. Anderson, Outdoor Mike, Melissa Martin, Kara Joseph, Mary Absher, Gabey, or Gabby Mahlman as Mike outdoors, I don't know. He just he's outdoors. Outdoors, Ursula SABIC, Becky Aimen and man amen.
Amen. Amen. I broils Calan call lady Vandar, Kat, Cameron, Erin, Aimee and Nathan Duke. Seamus Mooney. Jennifer Kreml. Yes. Kreml, Tom Leidner.
Shannon. I think it could be Tom Leidner. It's probably Leidner, Caitlin Logan Lagon, Andrea Constand, Gina Islam. Amanda would no last name. Jessica would no last name M. Turner. Olivia then I fucking. How did I do this to your last name. CRU's and Casano.
Hey there it is. Joe. Sara. I don't know where you got that from Kruzan but you pulled it right out of your ass. Congratulate Sarah Firestone, Hailie with no last name. Benjamin Ortiz Tamme Finally, finally, Kevin the Tech Ninja Tyler Moore ever Evelin Apple. Joseph Murphy Elliott Walker. Ashley Zable. Michelle Steinmark. Swoope Cast. That's not her last name. Chris Harrison Mallory.
Goats, goats, goats, cats. There she eats them. Morgan has casserole. Darren Bravo bravo bravo bravo. Yes Adam with no last name. Emily Field Brian Brent Deve Divinia Way Melanie Tamarind Halstrom Laurie Ivy Colleen Curry Jeno Bo Durata about the Rather Stephanie King Charles Branch. Gareth Hall. Jacob Vansickle Tay would no last name. Ryan Crocker. Theresa Wood. No last name. Heidi Hoffman. Chris Willis. Kelly Fordham. Koula Noble. Heather Phillips.
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Just for you and Otto. Brian Keller. Kyla Moreland. I said that Ashley Clark, Sierra Varly, Samantha Ben, Jessica Lindsay, Sierra Booker, Danielle Rech Sidler, Joe Long-horned Patriquin. All last name Taylor Kirk dofor Tara Lathan, Tamsen Andrews', Adriana with no last name. Collina Lightsey Gary SPER Shanna Charles Simon Mabior, Aaron Perry Stephano last name John Geiser. April Jenning's Monster Spivvy. I don't know what that is. Valerie Woods. Monique Monique Aykut Zet with no last name.
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Never. I'll never get it right. Ian Williams. Christine I told Dylan Link, Elizabeth Richard, Hayley Hoffman, Kate and be can be Moranda with no last name. Joanie and Max Preist Justin Spruill.
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