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Hello, podcast listener, this is Smart Lissi, I am Jason, I have a friend named Will and a friend named Sean. We we asked people questions if that's what you're looking for, you're in the right.


I mean, the energy is just it's really deplorable. Honestly, I that you do it, you know, here's your attitude. You if you want it to end and then then if you I just don't feel sincere.


If I like come on with a bunch of energy. Hey listener, welcome to Smart like this.


That's great. What you just that it's great. Try more insincere more often.


I think people appreciate the non bullshit on this podcast. People appreciate you when you're depressed. Is that what you're saying. It's free.


Just deal with my mood today huh. It's an all new spiritless let's go. Oh, look at haircut, Jesus, what? I think it's just slicked back. What's up, haircut? I did not get my hair. Congratulations. It'll grow back. Don't worry. I did not get my hair cut.


I just combed it. Huh.


Hey, let me ask you something when you guys go, because I know you guys go for walks like I do just to get some fresh air and walk during this crisis, this virus, we're do anything. But when ever I pass somebody on the sidewalk, I pass them and my conversation in my head is, OK, did I inhale like they're air, even though there's mask behind it, they inhale my air.


I had that in the first month of covid. When I'd walk by, I would I would quietly either hold my breath or or quietly. Just slowly exhale.


Yeah, I still do it. OK, well, hang on. I got to admit something and this is a true story. When I passed, strangers for years have been holding my breath.


Really. Yeah. Even without a mask. That's Jermey like me. You're not Jeremey like me.


Well I'm quietly I'm a I'm a closet closet germophobia. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I really.


How are you. Handshaker normally. Yeah. I mean I. Yeah but I just, I don't know. Like I said, I lived in New York, I lived in New York for over twenty years full time and used the subway was my main mode of transport, but I would do a lot of like you know.


So if you went like speaking in the subway when you walk by and you walk into like basically like a urine cloud, you feel like you're getting some sort of a disease just because. Well, I've smelt it. So therefore I have inhaled urine. I think about that all the aerosol all the time. And now I'm going to have a bladder infection.


Is that what you think?


Well, I used to think like if you peed in a public urinal, that he could travel through your stream up into your penis from the preview upstream.


Yeah, well, that part is true. That's partly true. Yeah. Oh, that part is true. That part is true. So then I do have it. That's right. I'm acid's.


Yeah. Boy, I did not know this about you Will.


Well but here's what you need Yershon. You know what it's like when you go out for dinner with Jason. So this is how it goes just for our listener. When you go for dinner with Jason, you go into the restaurant. Right. And so what he does is he takes the menu and he goes, OK, great, and he can't do anything. That's great. Let's just get our order in, because what he has to do is get the order in.


Then he pushes back from the table. He walks gingerly to the men's room, and he washes his hands like he's going into surgery. And then he comes out with his hands in the air like, oh, they're down around the waist because I don't want to embarrass myself.


They're like a surgeon. And he comes in and then if. And I got to kick the chair. Yeah, you can't. If somebody comes late to the table and he's already been through that process, they're not getting the handshake right, Jay, or start over.


You got to do the whole. Oh, my God. Yeah. But I definitely wash my hands after I have I've touched the menu. I've shook hands at the table, whatever that nonsense is. But then it's now it's eight time. So I got to go. We're going to boil the hands. I come to the same point.


Interesting that how the sitting down and shaking hands at the table and greeting other human beings to him is the nonsense at the table. Yeah. To him that's the. No, I'm there to eat.


All right, let's get on with it, gang.


Yeah. We don't get a lot of duos, but today we got to do whoa oh, no.


Yep, they are responsible for some of the most complicated and original music going today. They are also extremely successful. Usually when people do complicated stuff, it's not that successful. They know how to do both. Their work has brought them all on. I go to a different part of my notes here at Simon and Garfunkel, because if I want to you, it's brought them five Grammy Awards to American Music Awards to Guinness World Records, three MTV Video Music Awards, and the youngest to.


When all the four main Grammy categories, Best New Artist, Record of the Year, Song of the Year, Album of the year in the same year recently.


Yeah, man. And I know it is.


I think I know you don't think too my tone up.


I'm all fired up about this. They also happen to really love each other because they're brother and sister. Everybody, it's Billy Eilish O'Connell and he is buried O'Connel.


There they are. Hi, boys. No way. I have guys I know this is I mean, I might have to guys.


I might have to get the kids in the year. Well, guess what? Look at me panning left. There's my kid. Oh, my God. Maple wanted to say hello.


Now, Billy, you've worked with Maple before. You guys did a little guest spot on our friend, the talk show host, Mr. Jimmy Kimmel.


You interviewed she she did the Lord's Prayer in Spanish, you remember?




Oh, my God. Lives Highway Bill. All right. That's that's the end of that part. We got to get to business mates. All right, you guys high, thank you very much for being on our podcast. Look at you both there.


First of all, it's amazing to meet both of you. I am a huge fan. I remember. Oh, my God. And I'm freaking out because I'm nervous. Ocean, ocean, ocean ice. Ojai's my godson, played it for me on Spotify and I freaked out. I was like, but I have to say, you know, there's there's a lot of music out there, a lot of pop music and a lot of it is like fantastic.


A lot of it isn't. But when I first heard your music, I was completely blown away. I mean, you and your brother.


Not since the Carpenters, by the way. But I thought that what a way to pivot and not do what everyone else is doing.


I mean, it was just so different and so powerful.


And do you want to do you guys want to hear us talk? Yeah, I'm just going to say, listen, we swear there is such a fair question, but I have a question.


I have a question. It was the opposite of the same stuff that's been coming out. So what made you guys, like, trust yourselves as artists that believe that there's an audience that would want something other than those kind of manufactured pop songs that they so crave? You know what I mean? Because it's so different.


First of all, jokes aside, there's a very, very sweet question. So thank you very much. Yeah, I'm going to let you go.


You want me to take you on? Well, to answer a really sort of like kind question, I think the main thing is we just wanted to make music together, and that was kind of our only big idea. So anything beyond that in terms of like what people it has reached or things that, you know, like compliments people have imbued it with, like, you know, to us, the success was just sitting down to write a song and actually writing one and then trying to record it and that going pretty well.


So, you know, I think we've we've kept our sort of like sites pretty low from the beginning in terms of like, let's just do something and try to make it not suck.


Yeah, exactly. That's Jason can relate to that. He's kept the bar low for so long. That's the key. You never pull a muscle if the bar is nice and low.


And as I also say, also never build your high horse too close to the ground. You know what I mean? Because you're going to fall off at some point, if you could.


You know, we're in twenty, twenty one now. The last, what, three, four years have been. Your head is spun around a few times and probably felt like it was going to come off. Right. It's just you guys have been in riding this incredible wave and we asked this.


I remember we had Paul McCartney on the show.


We're kind of asking the same thing, which is like you have those moments where you go, where you check in and you kind of look at each other and go, holy shit. Yeah. Does that ever happen or. No happens all the time.


All the time. All the time. I mean, you know, in the bath a lot, you know, saying like or whenever I want to say when we're in. Yeah.


We don't take baths. Should other. No. Oh God no. But every day I mean multiple times a day when I'm doing random stuff, when I'm, when I'm not, you know, it's very weird to think about.


That's an interesting thing to me, because, you know, in order to handle success, I would imagine you need to somehow put yourself in a place where you are not entitled or deserving of it, but that it's appropriate so that you don't have a panic attack when you're out in front of thousands and thousands of people.




Yet it sounds like you're maintaining a keen sense of normalcy.


So then how can those two things coexist like the normal person would get out on stage and go, oh, my God, this is I'm having a panic attack. You know, like, how do you compartmentalize? How do you switch between the two?


I mean, it's really weird because, you know, I have a job that basically a lot of it is just people complimenting me up my ass, you know what I mean?


Where, you know, I know how it is.


I know what I know.


But what I mean is that I have a job and a career that is like constantly, you know, people saying I'm great or whatever.


And it's really hard to to not let that make you go, wow, I really am great and then be horrible forever and just be completely self-righteous and, you know, whatever, because constantly it's just. People putting you on this pedestal that no person should be on, really, but then, you know, there's the other side of of completely the opposite of that of people just you don't hate your guts.


But it's weird what really humbles both of you guys. Like, what are you both terrible at that? That keeps the keeps you.


You remember the fact that you're not a superhero, you're just human and you suck at X, Y and Z. What's X, Y and Z?


Um, can you are you guys terrible at cooking like me. Like not boil water. We can cook. I'm terrible at that. Yeah you are. Yeah. Boiling water. Yeah. It's tough.


I can't wait to get you to admit that you can't fucking boil water.


You know what. You know it's a better question, not what do you suck at. What do you wish you were better at.


Oh that's going to sneak it right by them there will we.


I mean we were both know we were both home schooled, so we don't know any math. Yeah, that's. Oh, wow. I don't know any academics at all. Yeah. I don't understand anything about the word geometry.


They couldn't tell you like I don't even know what it means. Sorry.


You're fine. You're not going to need it. Look at baby.


That's what I'm saying though. I don't need it. Like what are you do that. What am I going to do with pi.


You know, tell them Jason. Tell them you graduate high school. Yeah, right. Well, and Jason, because I acted as a high, like I spent a fair amount of time on Glee as a young person.


And I was like, I feel like my not going to school equal to everyone else, going to school and not learning anything.


That was the feeling I got. I felt to all of my friends went to school and none of us knew anything. It wasn't like I knew less.


You know, what I got? I got to say, and this is going to be controversial, I have the least amount of because I did not graduate from college, I dropped out and everybody in my family has multiple degrees and I'm way smarter than all of them. And see, they're going to listen to this and be really put out.


My dad went to Harvard and I'm way smarter than my dad.


I'm always fascinated by musicians like yourself who either did or didn't study music. Did you actually study music theory or anything like that?


We actually did, but it was because we grew up in a choir and part of being in the choir was just like doing music theory like once a week. But it was fun.


It wasn't like a you know, the way that school is nobody. But we there were tests and stuff.


I mean, but it was yeah, it was real. We did learn to read music. But, you know, that's not necessarily you know, you don't need to do that to make music at all.


It just we you guys, again, Paul McCartney was on. I asked him, I was like, what about this? And did you know your time signature changes in that? Right. And he's like, I don't know any of that.


I was like, oh, and he's written symphonies, which is crazy. Yeah. But it's more impressive. You guys know what you you hear the music, you know what you like. You know what what you're trying to say musically and the fact that you can do it without having to sort of intellectualize it, you know, it's just raw talent.


Right. Just that you're kind of relying on that. I mean, you laugh at it. I know. But it's true. I think. I think so. What do I know?


Oh, thanks, guys. The smartest person in my family.


I want to go back to what Jason was kind of touching on, which is where in the world do people like you get the confidence at such a young age when other people your age are like is kind of what Jason was talking about a little bit, which is, you know, like what do you attribute your ability to perform in front of an audience?


I could not tell you. I don't know. I kind of have a feeling of I think it just depends what type of person you are. But I also kind of feel like some people change and be I don't know. I don't really understand. I mean, I have a question for you.


What are there times where you suddenly are either in the middle of a show or you walk on stage? You know what? There was times where like, I don't belong up here.


That would be horrible. Great question.


Well, the only time it happened was, you know, I think at the end of twenty nineteen, so after I'd had this enormous year where, you know, I was becoming this, you know, name, which was so random and weird, I, you know, I had like a month off of doing shows. It was like Thanksgiving was about to be the holidays. And I had this one radio show and I went on stage and the entire show I felt like I was pretending to be Billy.


I swear to God, like I had this whole feeling in my body that I was like, why am I doing? And this sounds crazy. Why am I doing a Billy Eilish show for her like I'm not.


I felt like a parody of myself and it was very trippy. Took me many weeks to get out of that weird headspace. But it's really interesting.


But I don't I don't ever feel like I don't belong. You know, being on stage really is the one thing in my entire life that I've actually felt like I belonged in. You know, I had a lot of hobbies growing up and I still do. But I realized this recently that I actually never got to a place in any sport I did or. Any sort of hobby or whatever or class or anything, even things I loved, I never actually felt like I belonged there, but not in like, oh, I'm an outcast way.


It just there was something off. And just being on stage is the first time I can feel it in the music that you guys write.


It feels very authentic. It feels like you guys are talking about what you're feeling, what you're going through. The music doesn't feel like you guys are pressing into some area that you were incapable of doing. It just sounds very personal, both musically and lyrically. And it's and yet every single song is different. I think we talked about this long time ago. I think that Jimi show there aren't two songs that sound the same. That's so sweet.


If that's hard to do, I would imagine that's what I was saying at the beginning when everybody everybody on this Zouma is making fun of me.


I was trying to get the point across that it is it's such a departure from what was mainstream or what still is mainstream, that even if you liked it or you hate it, whatever, you couldn't help but take notice of it because it was so different and in your face and artistic and thoughtful.


Yeah. Not you know. Yeah, I love that. I remember the first time I heard Bad Guy and I was like, what is this. There was such a sort of a danger to it obviously. And there was like this kind of, you know, driving to school with my with my sons, listening to it and thinking like, what's who is this? You know, this is very unusual. It's fucking rad, man. Really rad.




Will, are you in your Batman booth? In the living room? Where where are you? We're down in the Batcave right now. The Jack Shack. I mean, the jack where we call the Jack. Jack's so gross.


It's really gross. It's named after Sean.


And I've had the sort of the that dark, sort of subversive nature of some of those songs. That's what I was so surprised to find out, that your parents are so close to you guys, too, and on the road.


And I was like I was like, oh, so it's it's not unsafe music, you know, for me, like, it's OK. The parents are on board with it. So so it must just be just the skin of it because, you know, my my daughter was listening to a lot of like, oh my God, is this is this too adult for her. Is it is it too. And and then you see the parent, you're like, oh no, no, no.


I got to listen to the lyrics.


We did some interview, like right before the first album came out or that album, the only one we've put out so far. But right before that album came out, we did some interview on a radio station. And I remember the person interviewing us was like, why is the music you make so dark? Like, why did you make such dark music? And I don't remember exactly what the headline in the news was, but, you know, it was just sort of like, you know, it was a dark for years, sort of geopolitically.


Right. There was a lot of like school shootings in the middle of our album.


And I remember sort of just saying to her, like, I'm like forest fires and shit. Yeah. Everything was like burning down and people were being shot at festivals and stuff. And I remember just sort of being so annoyed that her.


Why are you guys so dark? Yeah. Why is the world is dark though right now. Yeah. I remember just kind of being like we're just sort of reflecting like what we're seeing in the world. Right. And it's sort of it's showing up in your art. It would be hard for it to not, which I was thinking like during this lockdown shit. When when it's been kind of a dark time. And of course we go ahead and start doing a comedy podcast and I'm like, God, we're so cynical.


We don't even we don't even know the world around us.


The thing is that we never went for a dark song or a right like cynical song. We were just writing about things we were wanting to write about. And it's the same with this album we're working on. It's just songs. You know, they all have their own world of I don't know what I'm saying.


So what are you. So because I'm an idiot, what is the category of music? It's not pop. Is it electropop or do you hate subcategories and categories? And I don't know.


I don't know. Perfect. It's just good. And it's successful. It's just great. Yeah, that's what it is.


Is that what you've been doing in this time? So have you guys been working on a on a record this whole year type thing or the whole year for real?


I mean, I don't know how we would have made an album because, you know, we were planning before covid, obviously, to make an album and put it out in 2021.


But now having had this whole year of break, you know, yeah, I really don't know how I would have done it with the actual schedule that our our year was supposed to be like we weren't even supposed to be home, you know.


Yeah. You guys are supposed to be on tour, right? Yeah. All year, I guess the set lists or whatever you call it, when your plan is going to be so fun on the next tour, because it's all the songs you didn't get on the last one. And I'll go crazy. Pretty crazy. Yeah, I can't.


Are you guys like so ready to get out there and play. Oh I dream about it. I just I it's all I want to stay home for another eight months now.


I don't you know you're talking to a guy in pajamas. I think there was a middle. Period, where there was no vaccine, where where there was a kind of a surrendering to the whole thing of like, I guess this is forever right now, now that there's like light at the end of the tunnel, it's worse.


Yeah. This kind of work. Hey, Jay. Yes, sir, I think that, you know, that smart list is sponsored by Better Help Dotcom. Yes, yeah. And these are big crazy days and we talk often about how important it is to reach out and get help where you can if you can. And, you know, I find in this sort of weird time that we're living in that it's so important to be open, be able to talk about this.


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And now back to the show. So it sounds like you guys do like being out on the road, you like, you like the bus, you like the hotels, you like the the routine of a show and then going to bed late and sleeping late as long as it's thought through and not punishing.




What would it look like if it was punishing? Well, there were the first couple of years of of me being me. I was 14, 15 and then 16 touring for the first time. And I was also very depressed because I was 14, 15, 16, as you are.


And and also, you know, at that level, you really grind like it's the only word I can really come up with and hired a van. And you're just doing so much. And and I also was new to fame.


And suddenly I didn't have any friends because I was famous and I was leaving all the time.


And it was weird. It was really weird. So it's just I'm really glad that I grew up a little bit and have, you know, found just ways of making it fun. Right. She loves her.


I love my crew. They're all like my friends, you know? And I also have a rule.


I don't go on. Sorry. Well, I also have a rule that I.


I don't go out on tour straight for like four weeks. Four weeks is like the max that I'll be fully gone without a break. I can come home for like two weeks and go back out. But it's just when you're on tour for more than three or four weeks straight, it just it starts to feel like a chore.


And I really don't want it to feel like a chore, you know, because I love it.


And I don't you know, it's just, you know, that's that sounds really first of all, that sounds really well thought out. And that's a very sort of mature, kind of sober approach to it, knowing what your limits are and knowing what probably if you were to push that, that you would not only with the product, maybe not be as good, but you'd start to resent the process, a backlash.


And you don't want to get into that headspace and ask about your friends.


Like you mentioned early on, when you're out there, when you're 14, 15, you're probably like you were saying you you're not with your friends and you probably have friends back home.


That's social aspect. Must be super difficult, kind of disconnecting. So weird.


And the big thing was that when you're that age, you don't really know how to talk to grown ups and they don't really know how to talk to you. Right. And other kids my age that I was friends with back home, like they're not going to pause their life and wait for me to get back and do things with me again. Obviously, nobody should do that. You know, things happen and you move on with your life with or without somebody.


But it was really hard for me because I just didn't know how to talk to anybody I worked with. Everybody was, you know, over 40 and I was 14, 15. And I just didn't it was just not good. It just wasn't. And it was waking up at like eight a.m. to do radio press and having, you know, multiple shows and like acoustic performances and then on camera things like so many things in a day for a fifteen year old.


And then I'd get laryngitis and then I'd get like the flu and have to keep doing all this stuff. So it did get to a point then where I resented it and then I just talk shit about it.


All I could do was like, fuck fame. I hate being famous, I hate it.


And I couldn't go anywhere. And I was fourteen not being able to, like, go out in the world. And that was super weird because I wasn't used to it because I was a little kid.


You ever resent the fact that phoniest could walk down the street? You guys, you're both doing this thing. You're Polan, equal pay, equal time, equal creative input, but Phineas Kedzie anonymity and he gets a Glock down the street and live his life normally. I did.


I was jealous for a while, but now I'm like I'm good. Like now I feel because now I'm confident in my life and I'm very happy with where it is and I would not take it back or or change anything really, even though there were a couple of years that were really hard, because I, I just think my life is at a place that I just I'm so grateful for and very aware of how amazing it is. And I really enjoy it.


You know, before covid and I was doing all these arena tours and stuff, it was just pure joy. Dude, there's no other feeling.


Were you able to rekindle some of those childhood relationships and friendships? The ones that mattered?


The ones that mattered? Yeah, for sure. It's kind of good. You got to drop the ones that didn't matter. Yeah, you're so lucky. I wish I could have dropped so many relation because we have a couple that didn't.


They're going to be on the show in about one minute.


Oh my God. A finish. What was that like for you watching your sister go through that? You're going through it together, but watching her so much of the spotlight is on her shining so bright. And, you know, when that's happening, he didn't want that.


Yeah, well, you don't want it, but it's kind of like a helicopter light, like you can't get out of it and every aspect of your life. And so she's your sister. You tight. Yeah.


The fame thing was really alarming as a like I mean, it would have been alarming as a friend or. Anything but as a big brother, it was like especially weird because we're talking like pre driving years and stuff for Billy too. So sometimes I'd be like, let's go get lunch. And it would just be this pandemonium in a way that I hadn't thought it would be at all. And like I remember one time we went and saw a concert and it was like this was before, you know, we'd like Billy had security or anything.


And so it was just like her scrawny bouncer brother.


Like I was like the word, you get a deal on him, the worst security detail of all time. And like all these kids at this, you know, venue. So it was kind of alarming.


Well, it was also alarming then, because it was a small level of fame. Yeah. But it had all the moments of bad parts of fame.


This is a really dumb thing to say. But like a lot of the the most sort of sinister, scary levels of like stalkers and stuff is not like Lady Gaga fame. It's like the first echelon of, like, a lot of subscribers on YouTube, because you're not big enough for people to really think you need protection.


Right. You're small enough for people to really get to reach you.


And on a very real note, protection is massively expensive. So it's expensive. Like until you're making enough money to afford security details, you just can't afford, like your own safety anymore. It's very weird. It's really weird.


Let me just say this. I mean, I'm in Los Angeles and you guys can't see, but I've been working out a lot. And so some muscle, just like on the weekends maybe.


Well, I do like the matinees. Well, yeah, I'll get that security for matinees because I do go to bed at nine p.m..


I have just like a stock. Stupid question for sure.


Well, then roll it out for sure. Make sure to interrupt the conversation with a stupid question ahead.


I want to know it's a question you've been asked a billion times, I'm sure, but I don't know which is what were your early influences as far as songwriting?


Oh, shit. Jesus, fuck you guys. I'm sorry. Are we done? Are we done? We're just auditioning. We're looking for a new third guy.


And I want to know I want to know, like, who inspired you as songwriters, if anybody roll it into your favorite color just after that.


And if you were a tree, what kind of tree?


Willow. I think both of us were weeping. Will love a weeping willow cherry blossom. What a great question. It's a question of our inspirations growing up. Please say mom and dad, many, many, many inspirations musically.


You mean musical, right? I'm like, what music do you like? I mean, musical and songwriting and songwriting. But look at it seems to be a really horrible question that I can't imagine anybody would want to know.


Do you start to when you start getting some of those, like, old chestnuts, the ones you get in every single interview, do you guys start to make each other laugh privately by answering the same question with a clearly different answer that only you both know is total B.S.? That's really funny.


It's bad when we have to do an interview together. That's like a real serious one. Sure, it's bad and the questions are always like the same. Oh, my God.


You know, one time somebody asks how we met, come on, you guys, come on. That was nuts.


Those was the person's name, Sean Hayes, the interviewer.


Just because I think it's blatantly disrespectful to not answer the question, Sean know that's how I was going to answer it. Eventually I was going to answer it. Sean went into this a fan. He's going to we're going to finish this and he's oh, that ship has sailed out of the way.


I don't know. With those guys.


I was going to answer. It's our fault. It's our Jason. And I've been misbehaving. This been side texted me hateful things about the both of you.


These guys, their egos are enormous. But go ahead, answer your give them your answer.


We grew up listening to, like, a ton of the Beatles. That was a huge, big writing inspiration. Yeah. Lana Del Rey. Lana Del Ray was big for us. You loved Green Day. Yeah. You loved a lot of likes.


Underground SoundCloud rap. That was very inspiring, Ororo.


See, I think that's interesting. You guys release that first song on SoundCloud. Right. And it just like what exploded there. Were you guys watching the numbers tick up? Was it were you did you put it up there hoping that it would get traction or was it just like, well, we're done with this, let's put it up there? Maybe some people listen to it.


Exactly. That second thing you said, it was very odd that it got any attention at all. The reason we even made it in the first place was because my I danced a lot in my dance teacher was like, Billy, could you make a song? And I could, like, choreograph a dance to it. And I thought that was, you know, the coolest thing I'd ever heard, even though I wasn't going to be like anything.


It was just like, you know, some random dance. But I was like, sure. And we finally had this song and we so we whatever we record it, blah, blah, blah. And we were gonna just send it to him and not put it up anywhere. But we were like, I mean, it's. It's a song we made we might as well, but we were proud of the sound cloud, like for our friends to listen to.


There was like a free download link on it. There was you know, we didn't expect anything, though, and kind of crazy just in the next couple of days, it just like grew and grew and grew. But it was a small group.


It was a small group that wasn't it seems like it went viral.


And then I became a star and it not at all. It got like a thousand plays, that's how much. And we were just over the moon.


Your boy Bieber kind of launched like that, right? Yeah. By people. Fans like you of him. Yeah, correct. Yeah. Don't say your boy.


She loves being OK. She might.


But we all look like you're like you're on the inside off man.


Let me tell you something Martin that I cried during so demeaning that Bieber documentary made me cry. OK, and anybody. Oh me too. Oh yeah.


I like I'll tell you a true story. This is this is embarrassing because I've done so much stupid shit like this. I was at the U.S. Open years ago and they do this thing the day before it starts. It was me and Will Ferrell playing tennis against Andy Murray and Andy Roddick.


And we're playing. Then there was this kid. He was going to play some music right before the thing. It was like on a Sunday. And the kids like Will Ferrell, he's like, hey, Will, can I get on a maybe I should do like a Funny or Die video or something. And I said, oh, I remember saying to Will. I was like, hey, will you super psyched that the nine year old wants to go with you.


It's just like, did he do it with you?


Of course he did it. I always used to watch it every day. I did do it. He did do it. And I was like, yes. And I'm so I have a similar thing to with my buddy had his friend. He's like spinning. I'm a D.J. This is like 1992 in New York.


And he's like, you're going to come to our show. He's like, I'm going to show down on Canal Street. I'm like, Yeah, I'm coming to your show, Moby.


Oh, well. And then and then what about. Yeah. You kind of artists get that stock tip you got on Netflix and the other one for Uber, right.


Oh yeah. This was like every movie, every TV show and movie that you want in your house on your computer. I was like, yeah, sure. Sounds like a great idea.


Can I ask another fan question? Here comes guys. Hold on. OK, thank you. Thank you. And a lot of these are from my sister in Wisconsin too.


So I am a huge James Bond fan.


I know you guys wrote the song No Time to Die. So two of my favorite things are going to be on the screen at the same time, James Bond and Billy Eilish.


So I love the song. I love. I think it's amazing. But here's the thing that I get to ask you, which I've always wanted to ask somebody who wrote a Bond song before was like, did you guys have like did you have to work with the Bond state?


They do. They put certain guidelines or influence on how the song should be, or do they mold it together or do they leave you alone and trust you? Great question.


That's a great oh, you're also you're the only one I. I appreciate all the compliments. It's really nice to hear he's vicious.


You don't need to help him.


But it was very collaborative, the beginning of the process, which is what somebody says when it's like wasn't collaborative.


No, no, no.


It was it was what they didn't just say go write a song and it can be anything and then we'll use it. It was you know, it was would you guys be open to writing a song? And we were like, no shit.


And then basically the steps were they sent us the script from like the first scene, the opening scene. And that's all we got. But it was kind of it kind of showed what the movie was about.


And then she kind of Barbara Broccoli kind of gave us a little bit of what the movie was about and what Barbara Broccoli is the producer of all the change. Yeah.


And she that was basically what we got.


And we you know, the Bond songs are a very high standard for us. It's a real honor. And so we wanted to be really good and we thought about it really hard and worked really hard on it and well, it paid off.


It's awesome. Thanks. Oh, thank you. It took a couple of days of writer's block and then we came through and did it have to hit a certain time?


Because it's always over the credits, isn't it, the credits? Yeah, I think the very last step was sort of like making it right. Let's make it exactly this many seconds or something. But but yeah, I mean, it really was this. It was like on our, you know, fantasy lifelong bucket list of dreams of like maybe we could do a Bond song. Wow. And for we think it was one of those things where so after the album had come out, it was sort of like, what would you be interested in doing?


Like who would you want to collaborate with? And I think our team maybe was expecting us to be like, you know, say some other musician or something.


And we were like, if if they're making another Bond movie, like, let us know who we could be like, who we could beg to do that.


And wow, the Apple commercial is was pretty awesome in that in that respect as well. I mean, that's that's a very pedigreed destination for songs nowadays, isn't it. Yeah.


Bond and the Apple commercial thing. We're both very much like audition's in terms of like they were not an offer. It was like we'd love. To hear what you come up with, it's true, once we had written the thing and presented it to them, they you know, they said let's play ball, which was very sweet of Jason knows a lot about auditions.


Tell them, Jason, about your last audition that you had the last before Arrested Development.


This is for. Can you hear me now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Listen, I got very close to getting that campaign and had I gotten it, I don't think I would have gotten Arrested Development.


But, Jason, if you'd gotten that, can you hear me now? Campaign. You would now many, many years later be the Sprint guy saying, can you hear that?


Yeah. Yeah. And I'd have twice as much money. Yeah. And half as much hair. I do want to swing back to in retrospect, Sean's question wasn't as terrible as we gave him shit for it, but it's more, just more fun to give him shit for it than actually.


But when you when you went out when you first started making your record and you were you start to record, you write a song or whatever, did you have somebody in mind like who are the people you go like I hope I sound like or I whom I hope it's going to be like like here the people that I really love right now, especially, you know, like I'm not a musician at all, but I know that I find people who I'd want to sound like that's a good one.


That was. Oh, that was shot. It's not. It's not. Has a good one.


It was one I haven't heard before. Sorry Sean yet. I get a James Bond was pretty good God.


That was more of a thing that was prominent when we were first starting. Like when like when we first started making music which was I was 13 and Forney's was 17. I think that's crazy to think about. I don't remember feeling that we were that age anyway. Then it was totally in, you know, because I didn't know my sound at all.


I was just like we were like pure inspiration from. Sure. Yeah.


And that's this is a thing I've always talked about, which is that, you know, people get flack for copying others. And I totally feel that and have felt that a lot. But there's like a certain line of just being inspired versus carbon copy. Do you know what I mean? Because when you're starting out in anything in the world, not just music, you have to try things out to figure out what you like. It's the same with, like personalities.


When you're 13, you meets a kid and you're like, oh my God, they're so cool. I want to be more like them. And you do things like them and you talk like them. You you have to do that to become what you are. And that shouldn't be that shouldn't be pushed away like that shouldn't be turned away, I guess.


No, we relate to that. We do that. I can't speak for these guys. But I know that as a performer, there are people that I looked up to who I thought were really funny or really witty. I mean, I love David Letterman. I loved his delivery. I love how dry he is.


And, you know, I was always like, I wish I hope that I can cut somebody off and be really shitty and witty in the way he is.


That's awesome. Mission accomplished. I know the exact feeling. But also, you also catch yourself. You as in anyone catch me? You know, I do it all the time where I'm like I'm kind of doing too much like this person that I admire. And you have to just be aware that you're you're going to end up accidentally copying someone just because you think they're dope. But I think it's just important to remember that you can be inspired by someone.


You just can't completely copy them, but you can be inspired and you should let yourself be inspired.


Yeah, but but instinct is sort of like the the child of being inspired by somebody. Right. Like you. You can't you can't get an idea to be or do something unless you have seen it or a version of it beforehand.


I mean, it's just there are no original ideas in that way. I mean, Tarantino talks about it all the time. He's a brilliant filmmaker. He's made some brilliant films. And he is also a student of films totally inspired by so many different styles.


Yeah, we listen to so the quantity of music we listen to is very, very, very high.


And I think, you know, one of the coolest parts about especially working on the second album over the past year has been that we're deep enough into our catalog that we're we're more internal than external. You just kind of build enough of an environment where you're kind of pulling from yourself in an interesting way or your own. I don't know. Do you feel that way at all, Billy? I wasn't I was not listening.


Sorry. What do you think? What a great answer.


I was just saying that, like, when you're because we're on your second album that we've been working on and it's like now I feel like it's it's more like it's just being built upon itself as opposed to external influence. Do you know what I mean? Right. Sure. Yeah, I think so. Absolutely.


Well, on that, like do you guys, when you when you start to write an album or song, do you do you guys try to start as macro as possible, like you think about theme or feel or tone and then come. Up with a melody, then come up with lyrics and you start to get more and more and more micro, or does it change per song per album?


It really changes per song. It really does. I forget that, like, any time I'm asked a question about how my writing process goes and our writing process, I always feel like stupid answering it because I'm like, but that's how everyone works. And I realized recently that it's not that people write in all sorts of different ways and we write in a certain way. And it's usually I mean, it is random, but it's usually out of, you know, like three ways ish where it can start with an instrument, just playing chords, whatever, coming up with melodies, then coming up with lyrics or it starts with a beat and then its lyrics and its melodies.


Or it's you think its ups or its concept. Yeah. Or it's one lyric or it's one melody like that. You just it's random.


Do you feel an obligation to have a continuity between all of the songs so that the album is is a hole in its tone, in its sound, or given the sort of ala carte nature of of the industry now where you don't necessarily have to buy an album, you can just kind of buy one song at a time. Do you do you guys feel like, well, let's just make each song great. And if somebody finds a continuity thread through all of them, then so be it.


But that's not the drive. I feel the opposite.


I feel like a desire to not repeat ourselves.


Yeah, but also I do think it's important to have a project that feels cohesive but doesn't feel like a bunch of clones. It's just really been important to me to to make music. That doesn't sound like my other music. I want to make a different song every single time. Obviously you can't really fully do that 100 percent, but you can kind of do it.


And what I like about this album, we're working on it and, you know, my debut album or whatever is that it it was very different, but it felt like from the same project, it felt like the same body of work, but different enough.


I don't know if that's even true, but I got to say, I love I sort of noticed that you keep saying every time you guys say, like, debut album and you kind of go or whatever, and you talk about there's a self-awareness.


No, it's really sweet. You get there is a sort of a built in modesty that you guys have there, because I know it sounds weird saying it and you feel like if I say debut album, I'm bragging.


I remember one time saying, like, never say the words my career in the same sentence. You sound like a fucking jerk.


Like, well, my career like, shut up, you asshole.


But the truth is, at the same time, it is you know, it is your debut album and you are working on your new album.


And there is maybe that thing, I think anyway, Jason could learn you guys are genuinely, sincerely humble and modest is a part of that, not only just the sincerity of it, the genuineness of it, but is there also sort of like a side benefit of if you stay sort of normal and grounded, then you can appreciate all the crazy bad shit, fun stuff that's happening around it.


Oh, my God, yes. If you get jaded, then it's just like you're yawning on stage. Oh, my God.


It boggles my mind that the shit that people do. Right. Don't make it normal because then it stops being fun, right? Exactly. You stop being able to call people batshit. Yeah.


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And now back to the show.


What is it that gets you guys really nervous now, now that you guys are very good and accomplished and seasoned at a lot of things that you're doing, are you guys thinking about areas that might get you outside your comfort zone? Well, yeah.


Also just performing to to piggyback on Jason's question, because you've already performed at the Grammys. In the Oscars, at the Oscars.


We were so nervous.


We were terrible at the Grammys and terrible at the Oscars. I just we bombed only two really big for us to do.


I literally I can't even look at pictures of me performing. I want to puke. Oh, my God.


Oh, you're good actors. That the Oscar.


We were so scared the Oscars was the scariest thing because it's the coolest one of them all. Because because actors are just classier than musicians.


They're just so nuts. It's they are like actors get nervous around musicians and musicians get nervous about athletes. And I always get nervous about, you know, it's all grass is always greener.


Well, the difference between the Grammys and the Oscars is like everyone at the Grammys walks up on stage.


And their first thing we're like is they're like, wow, I wasn't expecting this. And there's a lot of tumming in Grammy acceptance speeches.


Well, like a very sloppy and like Oscar, like everyone, you know, I mean, most of them are actors, but but even the, you know, sound mixing Oscar is they have just a speech.


It's all professional and like classy, that it's very intimidating. And I said that a lot after the Oscars.


And then there was articles were like, Billy, I was hates the Oscars. And I was like, no, no, no, guys, they're just really scary.


And I was not used to that environment.


I've never been to the Grammys, but it does seem like sometimes like a battle of who could care less, you know?


Yeah, absolutely. People don't even show up sometimes. Yeah.


And they're like, oh, and today he's wearing a he's wearing a small fiat to some wardrobe Hollywood.


It's also in the Staples Center. There's like thousands of actual audience members. And I think the Oscars is like, you know, it's I mean, it's in that what is it, the Hilton or the the Dolby?


But it's very intimate and it feels like wasn't there a question at the beginning question?


I want to know what. Yeah. What gets you guys. No. What do you find that that you dread, like if it's something is planned on a certain day and you'd wake up in the morning, you're like, Oh, that's so good.


Talk shows. It's talk shows for me, really. You're so good on talk shows, though.


The take a second look. Hang on, Will.


A second right in the middle of a compliment. A fucking bore. All three of you were great on talk.


Well, hang on. Finish. Thank you. Go on. No. Yeah, it's the nerves that get me prepared for it. You know, if I wasn't nervous, I'd probably be where it makes sense.


I get that it's the anticipation of it. Yeah. Yeah.


But it is funny, though, because you never stop dreading things. I thought that maybe when I got to a certain age or success or whatever that may be like, I would never dread anything again. And I dread things every day. I just normal things. I just dread them.


And if that's a normal part of you that seems so healthy, don't worry. It only gets worse, but it's very healthy.


Yeah, but you know, what's interesting is like, you know, Jason and Wil and I have talked about this where I grew up in Chicago. And so I didn't grow up at all around any kind of Hollywood. Los Angeles. Your voice sounds just like my uncle's voice. Well, he must be gay.


I don't know how Sean beat you to that one. Well, I'm sorry.


God, no. I mean, because he's an uncle. Let's just start there.


But, you know, growing up in Chicago, I would watch I told Jason I would watch Jason on TV when I was a little kid and I would watch movies and I would watch all these things and just dream and aspire to. I still even when I would go on the universal lot, I would drive just a year ago, I'd be like, I can't believe I'm driving on the universe like it never goes away.


So what was it like for you guys to grow up in it? Because you don't have the perspective like I had, which was it's so unattainable, it's so far away.


But you guys actually grew up inside of it.


Well, we had that up until we were 13 and 17.


So to me, I do feel like I had that because I also grew up a huge fan of like Bieber, for instance, complete fan like merch posters waiting in line, blah, blah, blah. And just to me, just like you're saying, it was completely irrational.


Any idea of celebrity in general? I was like, that doesn't happen to people.


So just because you grew up in L.A. doesn't mean you would accept it any easier.


No, I think I think that there's like people think it would and and I think that L.A. definitely. No, not definitely anything, I don't think it really did, I mean, for us, because we didn't know if we didn't have famous parents and our parents didn't have they were both in the business, right?


Sure. Did that make it feel like sort of your pathway into the into any sort of entertainment was was somewhat more sort of natural.


They validated our dreams and our aspirations, but they didn't make them look easy. No. Yeah. Yeah. I think that, you know, we had, like, both our parents worked several part time jobs because they were in and out of work in terms of acting. So if anything, it just kind of made us feel like maybe this isn't even ever going to work for us. But, you know, I think the other thing that was, to your point, Sean, maybe it doesn't feel weird if someone ends up doing something that wasn't a fantasy or a dream of theirs prior.


But like, I wanted to make music from the time I was like 11 to the time I was like 18, 19, when anyone actually started to care about the music we made. And so those years of like, I know exactly what I want to do. I just have no idea if I'll ever really get a chance to do that. Right.


Were very daunting, but it felt completely unrealistic.


I used to listen whenever I used to listen to Hall of Fame by the gold standard, you know, Hall of Fame, the world's gonna know your name.


And I used to just listen to that and be like, damn that. Be so crazy like me, so crazy. And people knew your name.


And I was like, I would listen and be like, there's like that doesn't happen, though. It's just it didn't feel like anything that could ever happen. And it still is crazy that it happened.


Does it feel now like you thought it might if you guys were ever able to get as successful as you dreamed of becoming? Now that you're there, does it feel like you thought it would be it's way better.


It's yeah. Yeah, it is better. Oh, that's great. That's great at this point.


What is that? What part of you guys really, really digging?


Honestly, the parts that I hated three years ago, those are the parts that I'm digging now. Fascinating.


I don't know really how that works.


What part of those parts you fame in general? I used to just despise it. I hated everything about it. I hated being recognized. I hated not being able to go out. I hated, you know, not being able to post a place because then people would show up at that place wherever it was, because they just figure out where it was. I really hated everything about it. And I felt stupid because I was like, wow, I have this thing that, like, is really cool and people would kill for this and I don't like it at all.


And, you know, I was also forgetting that I was really, really depressed.


And that can make you hate almost anything. And I don't really know what changed, but.


I fucking love fame, I got to tell you, I just I love it.


Is it because you're so good, you're you're more comfortable with it because you feel more worthy of it or you like what you're doing with it or I I definitely like what I'm doing with it and I feel.


I feel more confident in it. I think that there were some years, like the years I'm talking about, where I felt like I had to prove myself all the time. Yeah, especially to kids like I grew up with like we had this you know, we have this, like, tradition of like going to our friend's house for like, what, Fourth of July or whatever.


And there was just a couple of years where I felt so lame because I, I felt like people thought of me is like a joke, like people that knew me my whole life.


And I felt like every time I went and saw people I used to know, I had to, like, prove that I was actually doing pretty well.


But nobody believes you because, you know, they don't think about it because why would your friend that you knew since you were a kid suddenly?


Of course, I understand that making that that leap from feeling weird about it and not knowing how to deal with fame and getting to a place of comfort.


I mean, there's a whole before you guys were born, you two did that record after Joshua Tree, they did that pop record, which was basically Bono's whole sort of struggle with fame.


And he played a version of himself. And I think that that a lot of that was him trying to figure out all of a Sonny Bono. And he's and he's doing these great things in the world. And then you get to a place. And now when you talk to Bono, he's very comfortable with who he is. Yeah, yeah.


Because I was just going to say it's so much healthier, Billy, to say I fucking love fame than not.


And you've processed it quicker than a lot of people do. I feel like I can say it because I hated it. And so when I say it, I'm not trying to be like, yeah, I'm so cocky and I'm all right, you know, because I have fame.


But it's like I think that we should be aware. And you guys, too, like we should be aware that we have an incredible thing that we get to do.


You're very privileged. Look at Jason. The pandemic is like for Jason, it's been terrible because he hates having to wear a mask. He doesn't want to cover his face because he wants people to know it's him and killing him. So I got a mask made with a bottom half of my face from a photo so I could wear the mask.


And his happiness is pegged to. Yeah.


So in five years and 10 years, 15 years, you guys still making albums that you love? Do you do you see yourselves diversifying into producing other young artists and launching them. I know Phineas, you do a lot of that and you guys have had so much success, so young. Do you think about mapping it out like Jesus Christ, we keep this thing going for another 30 years. We're only 50. Not nobody has the mind of a serial killer.


Jason, what do you do? Where do you think it's so white hot already?


I try not to think about it. I really have a strong feeling of of wanting to be to have longevity.


Yeah, we think about longevity a lot. I think, you know, Billy is very multitalented and this has a great eye for visual media and stuff. I think we've talked a lot about how our favorite art, like almost no one has like any more than five good albums. Most people have like one good album and then no one has more than five good albums, I think.


And so we kind of are like Drake except Drake, you know, unlimited supply. Yeah, he does. He just keeps going.


When you're going to listen to music, that's not your own. Who are you listening to right now. Like who do you.


A lot of the carpenters honestly. Really. Wow. Oh come on. I don't know what you're missing.


You don't know you're missing there, man. We love the carpenters, just not all the time.


So currently I've been listening to a lot of Julie London. She's just been setting the mood for me somehow. Also our low parts, just about an album.


That's really good. Yeah, but honestly, I've been just I've just been replaying the unreleased songs we have because I really like them. Yeah. And I'm very happy with them.


And everyone does change from unta released when the album comes out. Well, well I can't tell anyone and make you you you guys have been super generous.


Jason, your time. No. Well that's the end of it. You guys, we've we've exceeded our promise to our band. So far though, we love you both deeply. Immensely.


We love you guys. You guys are such huge talent. It's really exciting to meet you guys. We're big fans of you guys. So this is very even after this talk, I listen to Smart List.


My girlfriend and I both listen to it all the time. Come on. And because I feel like we've cyberbully John on this episode, I wanted to close with my favorite thing Shawn's ever said, which is during like an ad read at one point. Jason, you go, Yeah, I just had an energy bar. And Sean goes, Oh, when does that kick in?


I thought that was a fire that made me, like howl that really killed me.


So funny. Yeah, there's a lot of cruelness it gets thrown around in this chat.


Well, it's cruelty and there's your education very it's ugly head again. So thank you. You guys, you're the bad guys. Thank you. It was so exciting to me, for me truly and for all of us, I just really, really, truly, honestly.


Thank you, guys. Thank you for doing this. Continued success. Push that album out soon, please. We'd like more music.


We'll try. We love you guys. Thanks for being such a treat. Bye, guys. Wow. Now, listen, you know, I'm a parent. I helped my kids grow up to be like that and that they still get along and they're productive.


Did we talk about this before? Would you guys ever homeschool or did you or I?


I've got my own scars of sort of like not being involved in a regular school as a kid and sort of losing out on the social structure of it all that I would not. But that's only because of my own baggage. I'm you know, I'm sure it's great. Sure, it's fine. But. Right. That's interesting.


Well, would you ever homeschool Archie Able? No. This is the closest we've come to it, obviously, during the pandemic. And so it's not going well. Well, no. I mean, it's going as well as it's going for everybody. It's it's very, very trying. And I think that what we're missing is that socialization.


And, you know, you can't stress enough how important that is. I think for Michael, Billy and Phineas, they seem or they've turned out great.


I know. It's like like where do they go to? Like, how do you meet a boyfriend or girlfriend if you're home schooled?


I don't know. And they're like they're like four years. He's like four years older than her two or something. Right. So like they weren't like my kids. It's different for them even during this pandemic because they're so close in age. You know, a lot of their friends are very similar and, you know, of similar age.


But it must be tough when you're your younger sister and your brother is four years older than you.


Yeah, that's a huge you know, you're you're a freshman while your brother's a senior in high school. Yeah. And that's a big high school together.




Yeah, yeah. I've always wondered that.


I just I think it's fascinating, like I read this about Billy Eilish and her parents and that they just constantly reinforced creativity around the house. So you couldn't get that at a public school. I mean, yes, you can. And certain, you know, programs and stuff. But it's constant at home. It's always constant.


I'm sure they're reaping the benefits of having such a stable upbringing and such a close and healthy relationship with their parents that they're there in this, you know, this cauldron of anxiety or temptation or, you know, that they've got that solid home base is probably really helpful for them.


If I had kids and I saw that as an example, Rebecca, I maybe I should homeschool.


But we do have like we have the three of us have mutual friends. I can think of a couple of people who have who homeschool their kids and it really works out for them.


Yeah. And it so happens that because of their because of how much they're in the public eye and how well known they are, that it really works.


I mean, apart from the fact that it worked for them in terms of travel and stuff because of work, but also because of that level of, you know, notoriety and and now because of covid everybody's home schooling.


Yeah. And so, like, first of all, it's served them well during covid because they're like we know what we're doing in this environment.


Last year and a half has been good.


And but also, you know, they've figured it out.


Jason, how did you know Billy to bring her on the show? And by the way, great guests. Thank you. Very believable guests.


I met them at Kimmel's show and they were super complimentary about Arrested Development and they liked Ozark.


And so Sean, Arrested Development is that TV should. But let me finish. Let me finish. But what they really loved was cheers. So shall you. Yeah. Yeah, I think. Good.


How long, Sean, were you on? Cheers. So, you know, I was a first day player.


Yeah. And then I did a really good job of them to the, to the postmen to. Oh you did the post guy. Oh man.


I love that. Oh I Normy. I know. I do a billion fan artwork.


Fantastic weren't they. Yeah.


They're, they're an inspiration to every brother and sister out there but he is smart. Smart bombs. Smartness is powered by simple cast.