Hey there, Will Arnett here from Smart List. It's the podcast where Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes and I interviewed somebody. Two of us don't know who that person is because one of us has brought on a surprise guest. That's the whole conceit. I wish I could describe it better, but I'm I'm not that smart. So it's smart lists and it's starting now.

Smart, smart list is presented by AutoZone, America's number one battery destination. Make a donation to St. Jude Children's Research Hospital next time you visit AutoZone during the St. Jude thanks and giving campaign going on November and December. Hey, are we rolling?

Are we going to are we doing. This was where we're already podcasting.

That's the great thing about podcasting. Sometimes you're just doing it and you don't even know.

What about my tasty flair I've got on my it's like, oh yeah, I saw that. JJ Abrams.

JJ Abrams over. Yeah, I you. Hey, did you guys ever did you guys see that Nexium thing that that documentary called The Vow.

It's you know, Nexium is a little bit more for like. Yeah. Like if you have heartburn, heartburn or loose stools is an entire documentary about loose stools and heartburn.

Yeah, it was I happy when my doctor said Nexium, like that kind of thing. It was that cult thing. I know what you mean.

I did watch the first episode and I loved it. I can't believe I haven't been back yet.

It's so it's so while blame it on the Dodge, I got to say, and I mean this in Shonn, you know how much I love you and I've loved you for a long time, but I feel like you could get caught up in a cult.

Who says I'm not?

That's true. I feel like you could just drift away. By the way, this guy said, OK, so wait, I got to tell you. So the guy, the crazy sexual predator guy who runs the whole thing sounds like a great guy.

He yeah. He sounds amazing, those poor women.

But anyway, it's so fucked up, man. It's really fucked them.

But it's really fascinating that people can get sucked into that cult like that.

I'm going to be honest with you. I saw that thing, you and I. You asked me about that the other day. We were face timing on a on a personal face time. And I. Did I ask you about the vow? About about. Yeah, yeah. And I thought I don't it just seems too dark for me.

I mean, as much as I like, I can't take that kind of stuff like.

Yeah, I guess I'm the thing that attracts me about those things is like I'm fascinated by how somebody can believe that. Like what? What point did you get that. Yeah.

That makes sense to me, that we're getting very close to a religious conversation, which I don't think would end well. No.

And also, we have a really, really great guest today that I'm excited to Pope John Paul.

No, no, it's it's could you imagine if we got Will Hawking?

How great would it be if one of us was like the pope is here?

That would never he still has the hat on and everything.

Here comes Will's crappy intro. Let's hear it. It's not a you know what? First of all, it's not going to be flagging of crappy intros. I've heard. I don't even try. I listen to the podcast. You don't try at all. I know. Well, that's I don't want to insult the guest by trying to craft some big flowery thing, trying to put any work into it.

No, you know what? Go with that.

This isn't for work. This is just chat and giggle. Chat and giggle.

Yeah, well, I'm going to say that our special guest today is a really, really formidable person.

He has accomplished so much in what I think is a pretty small amount of time.

This is a guy who just Webster really started a sort of square one, worked in a bunch of restaurants, then started his own restaurant, then started multiple restaurants and businesses, then started a very popular TV show on on PBS called Might Have a Chef.

And then when did his documentary series about food called Ugly, Delicious? I've seen Ugly, Delicious.

He started Momofuku. Oh, my gosh. All those restaurants started in New York and then Sydney, in Toronto and Tokyo and Los Angeles and everywhere he sounds motd I just want to get him in here so we can start talk to him.

Our guest today, unless he's left is Mr. David Chang.

Oh yeah. He smokes Amy Chang.

Look at him go. Love it if you're just chewing when we say what a pleasure.

I'm so psyched you're here, David. Well, first of all, David, y listen, it's that voice. His voice is just so soothing. I'll do anything. Thank you.

Thank you, David. Welcome to Momofuku. You know what I mean? I'm just saying, like you said, that's a new thing at the hostess table.

I'm just saying, when you walk in, if you walked in and you heard that and you thought, my God activated, when the door opens, a server will be by to take your order soon.

Relax, OK, I like I'm relaxed and a little horny, maybe a little bit.

Is this a fake restaurant I've actually seen?

Ugly. Delicious. It's really great. It's a great show and you're amazing on it.

I'm a big fan. Thank you. I need to go eat at your restaurant. Los Angeles. A major domo. It's the one that's not called Momofuku. Yeah.

Yeah, that's right. Majordomo and I. The first time I went to Momofuku in New York, I went with our friend David Cross years ago. You probably know, David, you're a longtime supporter.

I do, yeah. We did a show together. Well, yeah. Sorry, I'm talking to David Chase. It was a cheap, easy joke.

And he introduced me to to the wonderful world of of your culinary delights. And but you've done so much.

It is hard to try to intro you because you are your super young, right.

Aren't you? Yeah, that's. I mean, look at the guy I don't even 43 this summer.

I don't feel know, cheesy. It is old.

That is all the new. Don't make him feel bad.

Only a 51 year old can say when you open a restaurant after restaurant, aren't you just like isn't it just like a big huge roll of the dice? Are you just like, yes, it is.

Every time I finish opening a restaurant, I tell myself, I'm never going to do that again.

Ever, I'm sure, ever. But I would assume, obviously, that the more you do, the longer you're around, the more your clientele becomes expanded and the openings become less risky. Right. And your brand is bigger.

Yes, yes and no. I mean, in some ways, they don't want us to do anything new, but they also want us to do something new. So you got to find that fine line of pushing the envelope, but keeping it comfortable for everybody like a rock band.

So you started you weren't. I think I've got this right. You worked in a bunch of restaurants and you worked you worked for for Tom Colicchio for a while at his restaurant. And you come Top Chef. Yeah. Top Chef fame. And you kind of bounced around. You worked at a bunch of different places. What was that moment you decided? I'm going to open my own shop? Because to Shawn's point, it takes it's a big risk.

It takes a lot of guts. What was that? What were those conversations like to go, I'm going to do this?

Yeah. Well, truthfully, the main reason I decided to open up my own restaurant is I was never going to have my own restaurant if I did it in a traditional way right at all. There was just no way what would a traditional way be. So, you know, I opened up in 2004 and I was still working for Daniel blueD at Cafe Boulud in 2003. And, you know, I had cook professionally for about four plus years, not enough.

But I had, you know, traveled around, seen a lot of different things, worked abroad. And if you wanted to open up your own restaurant back then, which wasn't that long ago, you had to be a patron to the restaurant and know the chef and say, hey, I'm I'm I'm moving back to Minnesota. I want to open up a restaurant. Do you have a chef that you could, like, give me? And that's how I like most people, most chefs got their own restaurants is a you know, through through someone they knew.

No one was like, I'm going to open up my own restaurant. That almost never happen.

And I'm a relatively competitive person. I looked at the kitchen where I was at. I said, oh, I was probably 13 out of, you know, 13 in the progression of maybe I'll get my own kitchen. And I was like, I can't do this. I got to find a different way. And one of the things that I learned when I was living in Japan was, you know, food didn't have to be super expensive to be good.

And I just want to do something different. So I decided not to open up a French fancy restaurant and do something different. And and that's why if I was better, truthfully, I probably would never open up Momofuku. But you've talked about it before.

You were kind of over fancy restaurants. You were kind of you kind of had enough. Is that true?

Yeah. I mean, I worked at most if you asked a lot of people back then, they worked at fancy restaurants, not because they cared about the food per say or the clientele. It was the only place you could work with the best ingredients and learn the best techniques. Right.

So in some ways, you know, I got tired. I remember coming back and it was a lot of culture shock for me moving back to America and then being on the Upper East Side and having to, you know, chop a salad even more and everything sauce on the side and custom, you know, making everything for all of us.

So Jason out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jason Bateman is well known in the culinary world, has been one of the most difficult people to cook.

So I have the waiter pull up a chair and I'm glad that you touched on this.

And Jason is definitely a somebody who's guilty of this. But as a Canadian, the first time I I didn't experience that kind of like asking for special stuff until I came to this country.

Like, I never got that.

I'm one of my Meg Ryan or Meg Ryan.

Now she's in the same category as Sally Harry Met Sally there. They're famous sort of this. I'll have what she's having no difference between now.

Yeah, she was very picky. But I love that.

I love, you know what she's I mean, that's what happens in that scene.

I don't know the recipes, but but that idea of people going like. Yes. And I remember like seeing some being with something the first time they, like, sent food back, I was so embarrassed. I was like, Jesus Christ.

And it wasn't because, like, there was something wrong with it. It was like it just wasn't the way they wanted it. Yeah. What I will do is if food shows up not hot, I, I for me it feels like it doesn't taste as flavorful and so I will even sushi. Yeah. I will ask the waiter to to see if they can throw it under the light longer or whatever, however whatever happens, because that's how they cook it, they just keep it light.

Because I figured that the chef wants the food to be bursting with flavor and the colder it gets the more muted the flavor gets. Or am I crazy?

No, no, you're absolutely right. Hot food supposed to be served hot. Cold food is supposed to be served cold. And if you go to a restaurant and you're served something that is cold and it should be hot, you have every right to send it back.

Because I figure it's it's probably either the waiter was too busy or some of the chef didn't want it at that temperature. So, you know, anyway, but the thing is, it's called a pass.

And most restaurants, when the food hits sort of the organization before it goes right out to the dining room, so much shit can go wrong by that time. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course.

Let me ask you this, because you brought this up. I've always wanted to know and this feels like is this a myth? You know, we've all done it before. Somebody is, like, rude to the waiter or whatever. And you go like, oh, you're Gerrand. Are they send something back. Yeah. You're guaranteed for the old the old kitchen's going to spit in your soup now or whatever. Right, without divulging any names. Have you ever seen them.

No, no, no, no. I mean, listen, it's hilarious. You know, I watch that movie waiting and I think a lot of people that are cooks watch that movie because it's like something we wish we could do. But that's never anything anyone's ever seen. Great.

So we can lay that to rest now. I mean, do people shita customers behind their back all the time? Yeah. Wait what. Yeah.

I mean, no, but I mean, if somebody sends Jason Bateman, if somebody said the plate back to be reheated, is that a common thing or should I be as mortified as I feel when I do do it, which is not often the only time it's a problem is when the customer's wrong.

Right. Right, right.

Like it happens all the time. Like, for example. Oh, I think this bottle of wine is corked and it's not corked. Right. Or this steak should be rare and it's not the customer's actually wrong. Right. And I think for years, even if the customer is wrong, the restaurant just sort out to eat shit. And I sort of decided I was no longer going to do that. I would tell the customer, no, you're wrong.

Nice, nice.

I feel like I took us off on a on a tangent here in making David defend the restaurant industry and the people who are screaming like fucking Jason Bateman.

Kale apparently isn't hot enough, but is usually it took David and me down in your life. But I want to I do want to get back to something you said.

Good. There's more from. Well, no, I just wanted to say he's my guest and I want to hug this time with David. I'm so excited. I only got three questions. Don't wear them all out. Let me say this.

You talked about being competitive. And when you started the restaurant, you were not. A lot of people know this. I don't think that you were a golf prodigy as a kid.

Yeah, it's weird to think about it that way. I mean, because obviously I never panned out as a golfer, but my dad was way ahead of his time. Now, if you go to the golf course, a golf tournament, you're going to see tons of Asian kids with their parents yelling at them. My dad was the OG Asian dad yelling at his son to be better and go, wow.

Well, you know, well, just got me addicted to golf. And I played every day for the last month. I did. This whole interview is now going to go to golf.

Listen, it was so uncool to play golf back then, mind you, like no one. It's not that cool now. Is that cool now? No, but I burned out.

I burned out really young. I mean, I won a bunch of tournaments and there was this kid named Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson. They were a little bit better than everybody else, too. No way.

Really. You were you were here in Los Angeles? No, I was. I grew up in Northern Virginia, but I remember trying to qualify for this tournament, call the big guy in Houston and I never qualified. But for three years there was this kid that was a year or two older than me that was on the cover of the pamphlet. And I was like, how the fuck am I ever going to beat this guy? He's so much better than everybody back then.

So that was Tiger. Yeah. Wow. And so were you a plus or were you a scratch?

I was depending on the golf course, my home golf club. I was a scratch. Good God.

And what about now? If you if I took you right now. No, no, no.

The last time I played so the last time I played a round of golf seriously was 2003. And I threw my golf clubs into the ocean that old had in Ireland.

And the 18th hole is a majestic thing overlooking the ocean. And and like I literally was thinking to myself, maybe I could practice and and try for the tour, something like that. How old were you? I know I was probably like twenty five. Twenty six. Because my dad has always said, oh, you have all these natural gifts. But I never had the head game because I just was a basket case.

And you know, the thing about Ireland is they don't have a lot of practice ranges, so you just like go there cold takes you four holes to figure out your swing.

And I literally had like a quadruple bogey birdie and it was the most schizophrenic round I've ever played.

That sounds like my game, right? Yeah, except for. The birdie, so I said, fuck this, I'm never going to play this ever again, I checked my clubs, the my dad yelled at me and I was like, Dad, I played for those golf clubs. I could do whatever.

So you have not played since I played once last summer. And that was I, I, I probably won't play again. Would you shoot something in the 90s? I shot like I think like an 88.

Well David, that's totally fine for a guy who's actually got a job and who never plays.

I'm just the golf does not bring me any joy whatsoever. I just I have to. Wow. I mean, I'm that kind of personality addictive personality where if I had the chance, even though I don't like playing the game, I would play and practice all day to be that asshole that wins the club championship every year. Yeah. Nobody likes that guy right now. Dangerously close to to to you.

Why did you stick with it for so long just because you had a gift for it. No.

Scared of my dad. Father. Right. Scared of my dad. Yeah. Yeah. OK, yeah. OK.

But a good motivator. He's he put in some good work habits with you. Right. And some thirst for excellence and winning and all that stuff.

And you pointed at towards restaurants. Well I mean it sort of became pathological. Right.

Of like the need to work harder but you better practice more. Yeah but I see. But you. But that's why I brought it up.

You can see it in your in your work and your drive like you have. You're very focused, even though you do a lot of your focus requires you to look at a lot of directions.

You still harnessed a lot of stuff at the same time, which is not easy to do. You know, it's a lot of restaurants, a lot of businesses.

It takes a lot of determination and a lot of, you know, discipline.

Frankly, I've been lucky and I've been surrounded by and this is not me being modest. I just have really great people. And I got way too much credit for for all the things that happen.

And I don't even cook in the restaurants really anymore.

So, you know, I just I don't know.

I when I look back at everything that's happened, it's hard for me to believe that we did all that, you know. Yeah.

Can we pause time to get in the zone. Oh, nice. AutoZone ad time. I was waiting for this pass. I have a car question. OK, you were waiting for an auto zone to ask a car question. Why not just go to AutoZone? Well, what if other people have the same question, Jason? It's not just about me. Well, they could also go to Arizona. Well, everyone likes hearing you explain things when you're annoyed.

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There's also orange, yellow, purple, pink, red. You just need to match what's in your vehicle to get the right performance. OK, what about brown antifreeze then? What what kind is that bad. That's that's bad. Antifreeze. Brown means that you either combine colors that you weren't supposed to or you had the green kind and it's broken down. It needs to be replaced.

So how will I know which antifreeze to get to? I look for colors that could become brown.

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Sean, how do you know all of this stuff anyway?

I read about it on AutoZone Dotcom. They have articles on any freeze and there's a video that tells you how to flush and fill your antifreeze safely.

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Dotcom get in the zone. AutoZone. You know, well, for a lot of us, our home is now more than just our home. Yeah, it is, because we're all stuck here at home so he can't do the normal things. I spend most of my time giving the finger to nobody.

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Just go to zip recruiter dotcom smart zip recruiter. The smartest way to higher, higher, higher, higher, higher, higher. Hey, so on cooking on, you know, what does it take to be the best chef or one of the best? Obviously, you need to have great taste, no pun intended. Have you noticed that you are a better chef in one country versus another country based on how you like to cook? Does that make sense?

No, it does make sense.

And it's exactly that every country and I would even say every country around the world, even places in America, are very different.

Yeah, right. Like. Just for salt, for example, in Toronto, I feel that people want less salt in their food. New York always wants more salt in food. And in Japan it's you think with all the soy sauce, it'd be very salty? No, they want it sort of at bare minimum, salt in a lot of the food. That's not, say, ramen or something like that.

But in terms of the cuisine and the technique, it certainly is beneficial, I think, to be in America where it is sort of this amalgamation of different immigrants and different techniques. So if you say, you know, a chef in Milan or Florence, Italy, it's hard to know the world because you're only cooking Italian food. Right. Right. And that is a benefit and sort of a negative simultaneously.

Have you noticed what city or what area, what region is more demands, a more sort of healthier ingredients?

Like can you actually determine that their clientele? It seems like it wants something more stripped down than than other places for sure.

I think it depends on the customer, like the people that go to Soul Cycle, you know, that they're going to I mean, you can always, like, make a menu. Exactly. For them, right. The typecasting of the kinds of food that people are going to like for sure. Yeah.

The funny thing with L.A., you think people eat healthier? They do. They eat healthy lunches. I find that a lot of people skip breakfast and they eat like total shit for dinner and with ridesharing.

All right, people get fucking shitfaced now.

Yeah. Where they didn't used to. You're right. No, it's been great for restaurants. You know, when you see like, I had this doctor once when I saw him at this bar and he was smoking and I thought that was the craziest thing I'd ever seen a doctor smoking.

And when I've seen you are chefs on certain shows just eating literally anything they want, I was like, yeah, because what I love about food is everyone has a different relationship to it.

Right. Everyone is constantly thinking about it and like, should I eat more of this, less of this. And the guilt associated with eating something, you know, is horrible for you but tastes great. Like how much or how little should we listen to that guilt or how much or how little do you listen to that guilt? Because part of it feels like I want what I want because it pleases me. However, I know that what pleases me isn't good for my body.

Therefore, I eat it. But I'm miserable, you know what I mean? Right.

You know, I think like most things, when you're younger, you can sort of eat anything. And I remember first tasting like foie gras or something like that, which is just fat.

Yeah, but it's so good. But at some point it all catches up with you. And I find that the older chefs get the less they want to eat the stuff that they actually make.

Oh really? Yeah.

Getting back to the ridesharing thing, if you noticed that in Los Angeles, since Uber and Lyft and all that stuff came into play, that the restaurant business increased because if for no other reason, just the alcohol consumption could could happen like in New York, I would imagine people to make money on alcohol for years because you jump into a cab. But in L.A., you always have to factor in that long drive home. Now, no longer has the money gone up.

I mean, yes, before covid one hundred percent. And that was a real boon for the industry because that's how you make money really in any kind of restaurant business is beverages. And yeah. You know, bottle of wine or several cocktails adds up. And again, if you are eating in L.A. more often than not, before ridesharing, most people wouldn't indulge with that second, third or fourth drink. They'd have maybe one. And that would be it, right?

Yeah. Yeah. You brought up covid. What is it? Yeah, I guess what is it is the sorry, let me just a notes. No, like a noodle's place. Just the I was obviously covid has, you know, completely changed not just restaurants, but the economy and how we do everything.

What do you think the future of restaurants is going to be post covid? What do you have a prediction? Yeah, I do.

And it has not it's not a good one. I just spoke with Senator Gillibrand to a bunch of I don't even know who the hell was on the same call, but I've been saying this since March and it has not been a popular take. And I wish I wasn't right. But I said I think that 90 percent of all independent restaurants will close without intervention from the government. And I think I'm right. I think maybe it's 85 percent, 90 percent.

But is that because the occupancy limitations.

Yeah, I mean, it's 25 percent depending on like New York is 25 percent indoors. Las Vegas to say 50 percent. I think California is 25 percent. Still, everything's the same. The economics are still the same. The fixed costs haven't changed. And I'll tell you, if you're not 100 percent occupancy for restaurant, you're losing money right now.

Yeah, right.

I heard Tom Colicchio say this kind of pitch, this thing on the Bill Maher show.

Tom had suggested, like he had this whole idea of why when this happened, when this pandemic happened, didn't the government utilize all the restaurant businesses to feed people to then keep the restaurant business? Is the economy going that way when there is all of these shortages at farms and with milk and and produce and meats? I thought it was a great idea.

No, it's an idea that was certainly floated. And the government not a surprise.

They decided not to do it because Sean, don't get pissed off. Don't. I thought this was a real opportunity. I thought you could have had Suzy the sausage in twenty twenty and getting subsidized by the government to do something that communities needed. And it just hasn't happened.

So I want to I was wanted to ask somebody like you, an incredibly accomplished chef like you, we always want to know, like what you eat, what you like. And because these guys know that I literally do anything anybody wanted for a free milkshake or cookie.

And if you had to eat the same thing, you know, or cookie or cookie cake or if you had to eat the same thing for a week, what what would it be like? What is your shit?

If you had if you had a bit a donut schunk same thing for one week. Yeah. I don't know man or what.

OK then forget that I probably choose like fried chicken I guess. OK, you know.

Sorry David, you should know the reason he's asking is because he quite literally eats a tuna sandwich with plain chips every day for lunch. Keep going.

Is that real on a paper plate going almost every day or a peanut butter sandwich. Well, tell me about this tuna sandwich. Yeah. Are you making this to the Senate yourself? Are you buying it from, like, a deli? Great question both.

But I make it most of the time.

I just put the tuna, the can kind of what kind of tuna are using springwater or olive oil?

Water. No oil. No oil. That's that's not a good thing. No one is there. That's gross. What do you mean?

No, because I put mayonnaise in it and celery and that's it. Yeah. But even still springwater tuna that's. Come on. You got to change it. Let me ask you this. Is there too much mercury in tuna? I don't know that answer. Well, then we got to go.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Walk us through it. This is a great line. So because David wants to know because David, this is this is his area. So you want so you're like, Scotty, I want to make some much.

And so you slip, slip, slip into the into the kitchen, loosen your slippers, which are right side and you're like creaking.

Somebody get some fucking WD 40 in here is a fucking closet is still creaking. So then you take out a can of tuna. What are you got. You got the usually two Starquest. Yeah. Two cans. Yeah. Two row because you're exercising a lot. Probably can. So you've got two kids, you've got the two Kansas starkest tuna. Yeah. And water and and and then you do the thing and you just buy. Yeah. Yeah I have.

It was automatic.

No it's a hand thing. OK, so it's Miracle Whip. It's to bring out the best food and bring out the best, best foods. We don't need the jingle just the brand Bestfoods man.

OK, and then. And then you charge how much mayonnaise.

How much all you can handle honey. Oh OK. That's the only good thing I've heard so far.

OK, and so the celery and I have to, I have to eat it with celery texture.

I see. But now a great chef will think about what the size of those celery cuts are going to be.

Correct, David. Correct. Jason, you are very accurate. So, so, so now we know this. David, what would you do if you if it occurred to you that you wanted to make a tuna salad sandwich?

How would you go about it? And for how would you make it different?

Well, I wouldn't use tuna in springwater because I think it's just too bland. You might as well, you know, like drink a Soylent shake. At that point, I I'm open to it.

I mean, I just think olive oil is is. Better and better tasting, and there's better brands not to be a total fucking snob. There's better brands of canned tuna as well. He is not biased.

So I would probably do that, although downstairs I probably have some Sunkist as well. And then Cercas, you got a two story house here.

Or is it a basement? Is it a basement? Ivoirian was some onions like I finally did some onions and some celery and then I probably add a little bit more lemon juice and then I do mayonnaise. I don't use Bestfoods. I'd use a mayonnaise called cupie, which is from Japan. And I do some salt and pepper and maybe a little bit of agave for sweetness to bring it out.

Wow. That's a whole new level of some sweetness.

Now, here is kind of bread when you put it on, David, sorry. Just we're going to flash toast bread. Yeah, I would toast the bread a little bit. Maybe a multigrain type of sugar. Yeah.

Would you put butter on that. On that toast. Shut the hell up. Unnecessary. So David.

Sean know David. David, this is my problem with cooking. You've just described a 45 minute process for a five minute sandwich, and. That's right. I don't cook. Well, no, that's why that's well, that's not why my main reason. And then. And then. And then 20 minutes clean. Everything I just said I can make in under five minutes. Wow.

So, David, I want to swing back. I'm not a swinger, but swing back to what.

Golf. I want to I wanted to swing back. Now I want to swing back to something. You were talking about playing golf with your dad and your dad actually. Did your dad partner with you on when you were in your first restaurant? He did that true? Yeah.

There was a lot of family drama going on and I obviously had a contentious relationship with my dad.

Here we go. It's tuck into this. Yeah, I want to grab it. You have any alcohol there, David, to start start sipping. We're going to get you crying in about 20 minutes. He just he never said like I love you or Anthony.

Very Stern is your father. And there was a lot of shit going on personally and in my family.

And is your dad still with us? No, he's not. He passed away recently. Sorry about that. I'm sorry. It's all good.

And I remember being like a lot of my friends going to graduate school. And I was like, fuck it, I, I saw how much money I might need to start this restaurant. I was like, it's cheaper than graduate school. And then I also remember being only if I'm 26 years old, I have to declare bankruptcy, then that's not so bad.

But you didn't lead with that with your conversation with your dad? I think I did. I said, listen, I'm I'm doing this with or without you and I'm going to raise the money. I said, you know, and I think he offered and he and he got three of his friends and they pitched in a loan that I paid back in two years, 125 grand. And I'm very fortunate, very fortunate, obviously. But I even got to the point of thinking about doing crazier things like actually applying to school, using the graduate like money loan and then bankrolling the school that I was I was going to do something crazy.

That was a lot of pressure then to not only did you know that your dad specifically had his eye on you for excellence and you wanted to make him proud, but now you're asking for his seed money as well. Good for you. That must have felt great to pay him back. And for him to have seen the incredible success you've had before he passed, did he ever give it up to you about the success?

You know how he did it. He told me a few years back. Stop working so hard now.

Did he really? Yes. Go. Wow, that was his. Why do you have kids now? I do.

I have a 19 month old. And so it wasn't a blessing in disguise to have a father like that. So you can just shower your kid with tons and tons of love.

Yeah, it's been amazing. I'm definitely the father that I'm not. But if you were like, no, I'm exactly the same way.

And I don't want to make you get into that into fatherhood before, you know, in ugly, delicious. I think in season two, in the first episode, when you find out, it reveals that you and your wife are expecting a baby boy. And you really one of the great things about that show was it wasn't just about food. It was about how food kind of connects us and how what food, the role it's played in your life and how it's connected you to your family and was connecting you to your new family.

And I was really, really moved by that episode, the way you talk to your mom and your sister and your mother in law and your wife, and then you kind of go investigate other people and you talk to other restaurateurs about their relationship. I forget that restaurant in Oregon. Your friend has that cool restaurant. Yeah. Peter Petersburgh. What's it called? Okano. McConnell. Yeah.

And he lives there. He lives on one side of the restaurant. And it's kind of like there's just like a wall separating the kitchen in his kitchen.

And I just love the way that you there are because I feel the same way that there is no division.

We can't put our lives into these different boxes. It's all one big soup, you know, in these lives that we live. Thank you. Or stew. Soup better. Soup better. Goes to Gosta. I'm not married to suit, but I could go either way. Rothbury Brothas Good. Yeah, because Brothe was clean too. Yes.

Cleaner bullets in your show too about how brothe is like a substitute.

But I just love the way that you broke that down that like it's all connected in the way that we live our lives and that we can't compartmentalize and that it's all just like this big.

And I was really impressed with your connection to family and how important it was to you. And I wonder now, you know, now meeting you because you were so nervous about becoming a dad and you were so honest about it. And and I remember your mom saying that you were going to be great parents. She said your wife was going to be even better. Well, yeah, that's what she said. The only reason I'd be a good parent was because of my wife.

Yeah, I know, but I'm glad to see you're still mad about that. But did all your dreams come true? Did it happen the way you thought it would?

You know, being a dad has been amazing. And I think it's been the only highlight of quarantine because my son's not old enough to go to school and drive me crazy. But being a dad has been amazing because all I did was work or go out and have just do whatever I wanted to do. And I never intended to think that I would ever have a family or I thought I'd just be a bachelor my entire life and still thinking about it or options always there.

I like being a dad has caused me to being a husband has I think caused me and forced me, not forced. I think I've willingly tried to be better and to grow up. I think it's taken me a long time to decide to grow up instead of being a fucking jerk.

Yeah. Is that what made you nervous about the prospect of being a parent, about the sort of responsibility that would immediately come, or was it more tied into sort of like your experience as a child?

There was that you know, I definitely didn't want to raise my future child the way I was raised, but I wanted to be president. I wanted to I didn't know how it would affect how I worked. Right. Yeah. And that was my big concern is how do I find a division between work and life? And you know, something I'm still trying to figure out. Yeah. You know, even when my son was born and pre covid.

Right.

I travel a lot. Right. Whether it's filming TV or the restaurants or whatever, should I got to do? I mean, I think it's like probably five, almost a little over five months a year. I'm on the road and even when I am at home working, you know, it's I see you in the morning and I'll see you the next morning, you know.

Right. And I think that's how a lot of my friends that we're now in L.A. and most of my friends in New York saw their kids, you know, there with their nannies or some somebody that's looking after the kids, but their parents are working. And, you know, I I just was like and I want to be a dad. That's literally my number one job I want to be good at is be a dad like that. If you ask me what you care about the most, obviously I want to make sure that I can financially take care of my family and the people that work for me and the company.

But I think overall, my priority when I found out my wife was pregnant was I want to be something that I think I'm going to be terrible at, which is being a dad. Hmm.

Sean, if you're like me and you're not out at all, and that's OK, but you start thinking about what you're going to eat for dinner while you're eating lunch, this is this is the truth. I actually ask our son, he'll be like, what are we having for dinner? And she's like, we haven't even gotten out of bed yet. It's the morning.

Just because of the idea of getting into my kitchen and actually cooking something and making the chef get out of the way.

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Are you still enjoying the entrepreneurial ship of opening multiple restaurants? Like is it still excite you, invigorate you, get you out of bed in the morning?

I mean, yeah, it changes. It changes. Its this post covid world. We'll see what happens. Right. But two years ago I stepped down as CEO and and we have other people in place for the culinary decisions. If anything I feel like I'm just like a guidance counselor. So I've been focusing a lot more on media so I can see how lucrative though this is.

This is why we have the two story house guys.

So I keep going getting you know, it could be three p.m. and multiple stories. Good point.

So, you know, that's that's where I'm at is I don't know, you know, we're we're we're facing some challenging times. And I always say again, I'm never going to do another restaurant, and yet I always do another goddamn restaurant. Yeah.

What would be the natural progression for somebody like yourself? And to piggyback on that, is there something else you want to you dreamed of doing ever?

You know, these are really hard pressing questions for me right now.

I wish this is a tough listen. We don't mean you guys would be the toughest part smartasses. We need an answer when we make Lesley Stahl look easy.

OK, I'm out of here. I yeah.

I think for me, career wise, just like what I want to cook is very different. And I'm trying to find some metaphor analogy. But I just while I always care about eating at a fancy restaurant, all these things like now I just want to cook or make things that are just wholesome and pure, like a sandwich or a piece of pizza. I don't want the artist like a tuna sandwich or even a tuna sandwich. Right. I care more about not about winning awards or I just want to do something that is good, simple as that.

And I don't care about winning awards either.

That's why I never win them, because I'm like, you know what, I don't want them.

Yeah. Currently the the big awards go to those places that design a plate that's almost doesn't even look like food. Right. The artistry of it, the way that it's it's like an Oscar film, you know, like best picture.

There's a certain film, you know, that's not necessarily populist.

Yeah. But it's it's complicated.

I get and I think I've always wanted to be something that's populist, but even still now, I just would rather serve a bowl of chili. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, like that to me is more appealing, both in taste and how someone might consume it, you know.

Do you have a restaurant that's kind of low fi like that? Yeah. But it's still not exactly where it could go. And I don't even think it could be a restaurant. Right. The kind of food that I person. And the thing is, I'm making more food now at home than ever before.

What about like a diner? What do you do with your leftovers? And just give me your address real quick and it outside. You know, I'd be good for leftovers, David, but my restaurants are hard, man.

So God damn hard.

Where do you stand on design or do you just punt that to a partner?

I mean, originally I didn't care about design or service.

Like if you talk to anybody about the restaurants, our restaurants, we're like jail cells, very minimal, no comforts, very loud music. And very much in your face, young and obnoxious, and it was very punk rock in some ways without being punk. Right. And I like the hard challenge and I wanted to win someone over with nothing but the food.

You know, going back to what I was like is there is something completely outside of the culinary world that you always dreamed of doing or you would want to kind of dabble in or Sean has a son has he has to ask that question.

I want to pitch you some ideas. Yeah.

He can't he can't not ask that question because I'm always interested in what other people are interested in other than the thing they're known for.

Well, I'm sort of doing that, you know, I'm like sort of trying to figure out what that is.

I'm still will always be related with food. I think we're making a bunch of consumer product goods like sauces and salts and stuff. We're going to get into the hard goods business. And part of this is how should I phrase this? I like to do things that people think are stupid, right. Or like it's not cool. Go on. And if you ask a lot of chefs or even like a younger version of me, would you sell pots and pans or fucking Alina sources?

I'd be like, what a fucking sellout. In some ways, it's like, how do you turn that? Yes, it's maybe selling out, but how do you make it awesome?

So you can put in the component of, like Paul Newman, where he sort of became somewhat philanthropic by selling salad dressing, giving his money away.

Listen, let me just tell you this, David. There's no such thing as selling out. There's only buying. OK, stop what you do.

You talk about all these places to go. Where do you like to go? I mean, all things being equal and, you know, without covid, et cetera, when you're sitting at home and it's like, you know, you look, you watch and you look your wife and you're like, let's go. I really want to have something that's satisfying and I'm going to make me feel good. Where do you what's the first place you think of in New York?

It's a sushi restaurant called Shuko in downtown. And like so the West Village. It's so good. OK, you know, it's different what streets it on.

I think it's like Wall Street between fifth and 6th or Greenwich and Broadway.

What about Los Angeles? Where in Los Angeles. I mean, that's the thing that L.A. there's so many places.

But really that arts district is sort of where the the the newer spots are, which is.

Yeah, amazing to the best of you guys. Barbel.

Hey, Jason, try to sound older, by the way. Yeah, well, no added arts district is where the new kids, me and the Lady Jesus. What just take yourself out to the shed and kill yourself. I say I do not get out of it. But what about this Spargo I've been hearing about?

There's so many good spots I went to one time and he said we went and it's not cheap.

And it was it was us and it was Thurow and Rashida Jones. And we decided to play the credit card roulette and whoever lost had to pay for the meal. And Thoreau lost. And he was so mad for real that he because he's now say this, he's so cheap and it's just us talking.

It's just us talking. And he won't be right here.

You know, if I listen to our show, he cries when he orgasms, too, apparently every time. Yeah. Yeah, it does. And I'm always there to wipe the tears. It's weird.

I remember when we can remember when we could go out and eat Jesus. Fuck, I still recording.

Well I can eat just up the energy a little bit. What about the tower bar. Yeah.

What about the tower bar. I think I can you pull the pamphlet and into the frame so we gotta bring another pill in for you.

It's almost night time. Five fingers of shortening the pill and then he's out and a cup of tuna.

I can't wait. I get excited around this time of day.

Wait a second. Wait a second before we lose our shit. The last thing, David, I want to ask you about your book. Can you talk a little bit about your new book? Yeah.

Eat a Peach and a great song. Yeah. Fuck, man, it's out. It's a memoir. You can read about my crazy life. I don't even understand why it's out there. I've been pretending that it didn't happen. That's the easiest way for me to write because it's so it's so revelatory. You're so open and honest. And it's so it's kind of like you have to pretend, right. That everybody's not reading about your you know what?

You're thinking about it. You read it. Did you read it for an audiobook?

I did I don't know, that's why I was like, your voice, you guys are so good at doing this shit, I don't know how it's I was of course, I read all the criticism and the first thing. Yeah, he shouldn't have she shouldn't have read it.

So I never, never read it, never read any criticism or reviews, because if you believe the good ones you got to believe the bad ones do.

So are you like avoiding phone calls or.

You know. No, I mean it's been I think, incredibly well received. We were supposed to it were supposed to come out in May and we had like a 21 city book tour. So that's not happening. But, you know, it's just weird because I don't know, it's not only weird that the book is there, it's weird that I'm such a competitive person and I'm like, fuck, you know, I got to beat all these goddamn Trump books.

Yeah, it's all right.

Now, listen, we've taken up too much of your time already. I can't thank you enough, man. I think you're such a cool dude and you've done so many amazing things. And, you know, I just wish you nothing but success. And thanks for coming here and giving us your time.

I'm so glad I met you, David.

I'm going to make you a tuna fish sandwich. Now, that's that's what I got to do.

Since I would love to see your version.

I would, by the way. Yes, I would like to taste that.

No, I'm serious. I'm going to I we're going to I'm going to get you your info and I'm going to make you something that hopefully you will enjoy. I would kill for that.

Oh, that's so cool. Thank you, David. Yeah. Leave it outside in the sun for a few hours and I'll pick it up. Thank you for being with us.

Thank you, David. Thank you, David. See you later, man. Thanks, guys. I feel like we have a good shot at getting a table inside of a week instead of a week, the three of us could call and say, like Sean and Jason will want to want to come in for for dinner and they want it to be gratis.

He literally just texted me. Right, like we should because we're friends.

They'll probably throw in the desserts. Maybe you think I mean, you know me, I don't like dessert. You know how much I love dessert, right? I'm no angel. I love it so much.

I love him, though. He was great. He's super normal.

Yeah. Super normal in such like huge family guy. And really, I implore our listener to watch a second season of Ugly, Delicious Episode one and what he's really struggling with when he finds out that he's going to have a kid. It's it's such a beautiful kind of exploration of himself. He's really honest about himself. He's like, I don't know if I'll be any good. I think I'm going to be a terrible dad.

He's really worried. Will you stop rolling up your sleeve?

It's so good. Why? It's just like pulling he's wearing a short sleeve shirt, is just pulling up the sleeves and making it a tank top. I don't want to look at your dumb guns. How are they? They're dumb. Are they not great now?

I guess they're good. All right. They're fine. Well, we should probably go look at my noodles. My forearms are bigger than my biceps. What's wrong with me?

Yeah, it's like a ramen noodles. It's just like a really good photo of it. Instagram, isn't he? Doesn't he know you don't have an Instagram yet to you? He does. Is he talking about take take an instant picture Instagram like a Polaroid post.

Take a picture of him posted you, Jason, take it to the post office so long as. Oh, let me just see how many stamps I've got left because I did a lot of mailing already today. I just emailed my wife a letter. She's right next to me. But the journey was incredible.

Miller a letter every day to let her know I love her.

All right. We should probably kick it, I guess. Yeah, we should wrap it up. Love, David. Love David. Yeah. The other thing is my.

Smart. Smart bombs.