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Welcome to Stuff You Should Know. A production of I Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast, I'm Josh and there's Chuck and Jerry's over there, and this is stuff you should know and I can't help but feel that I'm being sub tweeted right now before.

I don't know what that means. Oh, it's where you talk about somebody without directly talking about them. Just kind of maybe talk about their behavior, how you disapprove of something that they did. But you don't directly say this person did this and I don't like it.

You know, I one time I don't know all this lingo, OK, with the Twitter because I was never on it. And I was emailing with Jonathan Coulton, musician Jonathan Coulton, about coming on Movie Crush. And I can't remember what I said, but he said something, something don't at me. And I didn't know what that meant. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm sorry. I'm not sure what I did. I don't know, like, I apologize if I did something wrong.

And I think he's kind of like, who is this idiot husband? Like this guy?

And I think don't I mean, doesn't that just mean you're tagging someone on Twitter? Yeah, but usually it means like you're you're telling them they got something wrong or you disagree with what they say or they should be ashamed of what they said. It's usually a hostile thing. You're against somebody or you're you're. Yeah, they don't there. They have made their point and they don't want to hear any feedback from you about it.

That's right. That's kind of what I took from it. And you have to like kind of snap a few times when you say it. I'm just really so thankful still that I never joined Twitter. Just that's the last thing I need. I'm already on Facebook, which is terrible. I've been enjoying Instagram. I have to say, that seems like a pretty nice crowd, a totally different place. Yeah. But, you know, we're talking about all this because we're talking about Sacagawea.

Yes, we are.

Who naturally. Yeah. Naturally. Who would probably issue both Instagram and Twitter because she seems like a pretty solid human being to be like don't at me.

Right. So just to just to get this done out of the gate again, I thought that her name was pronounced succored. Julia, I am not like in the minority in the United States, at least because that's how we were raised to say her name. Fortunately, we have such things as historians and people who listen to Native Americans who have been told over the years. Now, it's not such a joy. It's such a cool guy. Right.

There's one pronounce pronunciation of it, but it's not just it's Ghia. And we've started to kind of pronounce her name correctly. You say it way better than me, so why don't you take it?

Well, I mean, gosh, this is the third time now on this. I've seen different things from Chicago way to Chicago, where I think in Clark's journal, William Clark, that is, of Lewis and Clark fame, spelled it S.H. Katch emphasis on that, G.R. WEAA so Sakagami or Sacagawea. But then the Shashemene, which is a Native American tribe that well, we'll get to the importance there. They say actually it is S.A.C., AJ, WEAA, and that means boat pusher, not the Hidatsa language of bird woman.

So there is some debate.

Yeah. One thing that I did see is that Lewis and Clark and they factor in this because Sakiko where was the the main guide and interpreter as they push further westward, she or they they actually tried to spell every Indian or Native American word that they encountered phonetically as best they could. Yeah, they were terrible spellers even of English words. I mean, just like barely literate it seemed like. But they tried their best. Yeah, it's really bad.

But they they tried to tried to spell every every word that they, they, they found phonetically and I think go away. His name appears seventeen different times in both of their journals and not once did they spell that third syllable with a J sound with a J. It's always a G and they think that it was a hard G so that it could go away not suckage awiya.

So they said it's definitely gif in that Jeff. You're right. Which it is definitely gif as we all know.

So if you listen to the Lewis and Clark episode, was it a two parter?

I feel like it was it was not it was not like you're thinking of the evil cannibal gods on bears. You always bring that up to shame me. I think it shames both of us and Jerry to a certain extent, as well as learning like stepped in and like, for God sakes, what are you doing? Totally consolidate me.

So a great episode, though, I know in that episode we talked a bit, obviously, about Chicago Way and Ken Burns in his great documentary about the Corps of Discovery. But she was born she had a she you know, she lived a short life.

And there is a little controversy on how long she did live, which will get to at the end. But she was born in either 1788 or 89 as a member of the Lim Limmy is what I'm going to say. OK, Ellie, Imagi, Band of the Shoshone tribe, which we spoke about a minute ago.

Is this Shashemene or Shoshoni? Shoshoni? Is this a show?

That's what I've always heard. But then again, I always heard it was suckage away. You to know. I believe this is Shonai.

She grew up in a very, I imagine, lovely, lovely part of the country and what is now Idaho in the Salmon River region.

Yes. So she was actually a member of a specific band of the Lemcke Shoshone. The Salmon Eaters is what they were called. And she she grew up in that that part of Idaho, I guess it was around the the Bitterroot Mountains near the Continental Divide in the Bitterroots part of the Rockies. But, yeah, it just sounds absolutely gorgeous. The Shoshone tribe was enemies to the Hidatsa who you mentioned earlier. And the reason that they say that Takigawa means bird woman is because that could go away.

It became an involuntary member of the Hidatsa tribe when she was around 12 years old. I didn't get it. She was out on a buffalo hunt. Or if the Hidatsa happened to be out on a buffalo hunt and came across her. Did you understand that?

I'm not sure. I kind of just in my mind thought that they were out. But I guess it doesn't really matter because either way, she was kidnapped and settled with them near what is now Bismarck, North Dakota. Yeah. And here's where her life took or I guess that event actually took her life in a very different direction. And that that was a trading center in international trading center. So people from all over the world would kind of stop through there to trade their wares.

And she was essentially I mean, it's hard to not say kidnapped again. A French Canadian fur trader to sell Charboneau, beautiful, took her as property.

He called her his wife. But we can't you know, now through today's lens, we've got a lot better about not glossing over that stuff. Right. She was property to him. She was a teenager. I think, like sixteen or seventeen.

I think she was actually fifteen. That was she. And she was about two decades younger than him. And there's no other way to say it other than she was property. And part of being property was that she was raped by Charboneau.

Yeah. Like, there's there's there's no way you can put it that she didn't have any say in the matter of whether they had sex. So, like, it's just that's rape no matter what. But yeah, over the over the years, like, she's always been referred to as one of his wives because I guess Americans didn't want to kind of confront that stuff, you know. Right.

So she ends up living among the Hidatsa and as Charboneau wife slash property because Charboneau being a fur trader and the Hidatsa settlement that they lived at, being this kind of international trading post he had kind of adopted, like the Hidatsa way of living himself, he just being a fur trader, he had to be able to handle himself out in the elements. So I think it kind of it was his speed from what I gathered for the rest of his life.

He just basically lived in a style similar to Native Americans.

So she aside from being away from her native tribe, she live, you know, probably fairly in a fairly cosmopolitan manner compared to how she would have had she never been kidnapped from the Lemhi Band of Shoshones, which is kind of sad. But there's one thing that should be said.

There's there's documentary opinion that she was she was not unhappy living on this kind of this border land between the two cultures. Like she she seemed to feel somewhat comfortable living among, you know, the colonizers way of life on the frontier. It just as much as she did living among the Shoshone.

And we should also point out that a lot of this is very little is recorded, a lot of speculative because, you know, there's remarkable well, I guess not remarkable because it was three, but very little actual recorded information about her life.

But it's remarkable how much there is for the typical teenage Native American girl at the time, like the fact that there's anything recorded about her. This is a kind of a huge testimony to her and her personality now.

Absolutely. So at 3:00 is when Charboneau takes control of her life. At 3:00 is also when Thomas Jefferson said, hey, we got this big tract of land, really sweet deal called the Louisiana Purchase. Eight hundred and twenty eight thousand square miles of land stretching from the Canadian border to the Gulf of Mexico, from the Mississippi to Colorado. And we need to go see what's out there because white people have never explored this territory. I want to find a Northwest Passage which was eventually found.

They were looking in the wrong place, but that's what they were sort of after. But they were after more. Jefferson really wanted to know what was out there, the landscape. He wanted maps. He wanted to know about the Native American tribes. He wanted to know about the the plant life and the animal life. And just like go Meriwether Lewis out there and record everything you can. Yeah.

Meriwether Lewis was Jefferson's personal secretary and Lewis selected what was Clark's first name, Josh. Billy William. William Clark. Billy Clark, who had been his captain in the Army as the leader of the expedition. He found him to be an able leader and said, hey, you want to come lead this super high prestige expedition for the president that the entire nation is going to be watching. And Clark said, sure, let's do it. So Lewis and Clark set out on this expedition and they actually traveled, I think, six hundred miles before they ended up in at that Hidatsa settlement, which is about where they really started to hit the frontier, from what I understand.

All right, that sounds like a great turning point to take a break, so we'll be back right after this and pick up with the meeting of Lewis and Clark and Sacagawea.

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OK, Chuck, so we've reached what is now today, Bismarck, North Dakota, at the South Dakota, South Dakota.

You sure? I think so, no. All right. Yeah, it's Bismarck, North Dakota. Are there, too?

I was going to say it almost literally doesn't matter. We're going to get crushed for this.

It is. No, it's definitely Bismarck, North Dakota. OK, then that was a misprint then in the I'll tell you what. Get this, I've got this machine called the computer. Are you actually going to look it up? Yeah, I'm going to look it up.

I'm going to do a favor for the people of Bismarck, for once. Bismarck, North Dakota. I think it's North Dakota. It is. That's weird because I think this is from HowStuffWorks. They got South Dakota written in there. Oh, boy. All right, let's send an email, not going to think I'm going to add them. Yeah, don't you know that's the tagline of HowStuffWorks, don't add us.

That's right. So apologies to all the people in the both Dakotas, all three Dakotas. We meant nothing by it.

And we're going to do a live show there one day to make up for it. Are we sure? Why not? I'll tell you later.

OK. All right. Where are you? It's November 2nd, 1884, when they finally land and they meet up with Sacagawea, who is six months pregnant at this point. And Charboneau is I get the impression that he's a bit of a.

Not a grifter, maybe, but sort of an opportunist. Yeah. Yeah, I think so, for sure, I mean, like he's a fur trader, for Pete's sake, like, you got to be true. You got to be a little like that. That includes not just survival in the woods and killing animals, but also having to, you know, get the highest price you can for your pelts. So I'm guessing there's a bit of used car salesman to Charboneau for sure.

He was not exactly like it. He was not well liked by Lewis and Clark. I don't know that he was hated or despised, but I get the impression from reading historians interpretations of their their journal entries about Charboneau was that he was kind of a cross between.

Chris Farley, OK, and Gollum, maybe I can't wait to see that photo shop.

Oh, goodness. Yeah. Know who's going to take care of that for us? So just this idea that this guy was not competent necessarily and was maybe a little bit evil. And that's that's all you need to know about Charboneau. I also get the impression, Chuck, that there was a there is a you know, we'll talk about later, but there is such a way was plucked from historic obscurity and really kind of raised up on this pedestal, and I think rightly so.

But there was a sport that developed alongside of that where you could very easily raise could go way up by contrasting her to her good for nothing slave holding a husband and showing how just terrible he was that everything it made her look all them, all the much better. So I think there's a sport to it. There's kind of a long history of putting down Charboneau. But I think that it's kind of rooted, in fact, from what I understand.

Yeah. So at any rate, he comes along and he's like, hey, you guys really need to bring me along. And then my wife slash property here. I speak Hidatsa in French now, like we don't really need that. But I see that Sakaguchi speaks Shoshoni and we really need to learn that because at a certain point we're going to need to talk to them to get some horses in. Since we can't hire a woman because it's 18 O3, we have to actually hire the husband to get her to come along.

I guess you both can come.

Yeah. So like we got to explain why Chicago way of being Shoshoni was really important. And it was like you said, there's horses somehow. I'm not exactly sure how they are the news because these are the first Americans to chart a course westward. But they knew that the the Missouri River and the Columbia River was was separated by mountains, the Rocky Mountains, the Bitterroot Mountains, to be specific, and that since they were taking to the river, they were going to need to get from one river to the other and that the Shoshone Indians happen to live exactly where they needed or where they needed to pass through, where they needed the most help, where they needed horses.

And so having a Shoshoni along to help broker a deal would be incredibly useful.

So useful, in fact, that the arrangement was going to be that when they finally met up with the Shishani tribe in this area where they needed the horses the most, Sacagawea was going to speak to the Shoshones and then she was going to translate what the Shoshones said into Hidatsa to Charboneau.

Yeah, Charboneau is going to translate from Hidatsa into French for a French speaking member of the Corps of Discovery who would then translate from French into English for Lewis and Clark.

That's how she didn't even speak English.

No, he spoke Hidatsa in French. So I thought that meant in addition to English. No, he so he did he did play a role that was important. He was going to translate from Hidatsa into French. It would have been way better if he had spoken English. But it yeah, it just meant another person in the chain. Everything came out purple monkey dishwasher at the end.

So one thing we failed to mention, I think, which is just remarkable, is that a few a couple of months before they leave together, Sacagawea has her son, Jean Baptiste, known as Baptiste. And so and I know we talked about this and Lewis and Clark, but I think I didn't have a kid at the time. It's just astounding to me now that I've had a two month old baby to to take and like keeping that baby alive and all the comforts of, you know, modern day American.

To take a baby like that on a voyage like this is astounding.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's really remarkable.

Yeah. And I mean, like, if you look at all of the memorials to Sacagawea, I don't think there's one out there that doesn't also show Baptists as well. Of course not. Not just because he was an adopted honorary member of the discovery, basically a mass culture, but also because it just goes to point out just how astounding what his mom did was. You know, I think when when Chicago was put on the the dollar coin in the United States in 2000, Hillary Clinton famously referred to as the original working mom.

Wow, that's pretty cool designation. I thought so, too, so, yeah, I think it's great to to just say that she's remembered as, you know, doing all this with a baby strapped to her back the whole time.

Right. So that's their plan. They plan to get there, send her out to talk to the Shoshone tribe to get these horses. But which is a good plan. But it was even way better. It worked out like almost like it had been written in a movie script or something. Yeah, because I think it is.

Lewis shows up first and has contact with an older woman of the tribe and then about 60 Shoshoni on horseback ride up. And they're like, you seem like a decent guy, you're friendly. Let's all make this work out then. Park's group shows up about a day later with Sakaguchi and they're like, Oh my God, it's you. You were the one that was kidnapped and taken away so many years ago. And then Chief Camille wait rides up and it's cycleways brother.

Yeah. So not only do they get to have this reunion, but Lewis and Clark are like, yes, we're going to get such a good score on these horses. Yeah. The they're the chief is her brother. Like this is perfect. But you know what that stuck out to me is, Chuck, that meant that Sacagawea probably would have met Lewis and Clark even if she had never been kidnapped. Yeah, maybe so in that really crazy to think like that one way or another, she was going to probably meet Lewis and Clark, even even with her life diverging that radically from its, you know, original projected path.

Yeah.

And what it really did was, I mean, she was already proving to be useful in that she could identify berries and things that you could eat and plants that you could use as medicine and kind of acted as the the navigator. And a lot of cases like, no, we need to go this way. I've been here before.

This is where I grew up. Yeah. There's a huge, huge rock called Beaverhead Rock that she famously recognized that you can go visit and stand in the place basically where she showed Lewis and Clark like, look, my my people are going to be right around here. I recognize this place.

Yes. So they've already got all this respect for up until that point. And then she has such an in with the Shoshone, like you said, they get, I'm sure, a really good deal on the horses. And not only that, but they get help. They get like they kind of partner up with them to help them along, which is a really big deal.

Yeah, because Lewis and Clark expedition had somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 people involved, huge boats, several huge boats, lots of equipment, lots of instruments. And some people say, well, like if they needed horses, a bad way to bring the horses or because they travel by water, they really hated horses really, really badly. But just for this one specific part of the trip in between the Missouri and the Columbia River, Thomas Jefferson, very famous, famously called a dilly of a pickle that they had run into.

But the fact that they were able to get the horses from the Shoshone, it just basically checked this enormous box that the whole expedition was predicated on. They just couldn't they could not have completed their mission without this. And so I could go away a basically brokered that made sure that box got checked. And there's one other thing that stands out about her, too, that gets overlooked. Saw in a few places, Charboneau had another wife who was Shoshoni.

And if they needed a Shoshones speaker who was who was, you know, with Charboneau, who came with Charboneau, they could have very easily gone with woman.

The other the other, I guess, victim Charboneau. And they didn't they went with Takigawa who knowing full well that she came with an infant now, like there was going to be an infant, even though with otter woman there wouldn't have been. So clearly Sakaguchi is like putting out the right kind of vibes. That's saying, like, I'm extraordinarily competent, you should probably pick me, even though if you pick me, I'm going to be bringing a newborn baby along on this frontier trek.

I think that says a lot about the kind of, I guess, charisma or competence or whatever she was putting out that that that Lewis and Clark were like, yes, I think she would be the better of the two.

Yeah. Because you don't want a two month old baby along. No, but if you're cute, but never. But if you say, OK, we'll have a two month baby along like that, says a lot about the mom that's carrying the baby around. I'm sure her abilities are, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. She also proved her worth when and I can't remember if we I think we might have talked about this when there was one of their sailing vessels almost capsized. Yeah. When a big squall hit it. Apparently Charboneau was navigating. He panicked under pressure. And it was Sakaguchi who was calm and said, you know, we need to get these papers together. We need to get the books that we've been writing in all these navigational instruments and medicines and provisions and other stuff.

We need to get it all together and take care of it. And also this baby and basically saved that situation. And it was just, you know, he was like, oh, my God, oh, my God.

Oh my God. Oh my God. Sakuraba is right. Yeah. So yeah that was, that's one of the big stories that's told about so I could go away so much so I mean that, that either Lewis or Clark wrote about it and basically was like this. The second away is an amazing person, like she's, she's doing stuff that other members of the corps not doing. I mean there is I think at least 12 members of the Corps of Discovery who aren't mentioned by name in either of the journals of Lewis and Clark throughout the expedition.

They did work. They did their their job, obviously, but they didn't get mentioned because they they weren't doing stuff like that could go away. It was. And I think the the fact that she's mentioned multiple times with kind of frequently discussing, like, just they're impressed how impressed they were with her. It says a lot as well.

Yeah. I mean, they named because of that sailing incident. They named a branch of the Missouri River after her. Yeah. And. I think Clark was the one who really grew closer to her. It's really hard to get a read on exactly what the nature of their relationship was. It seems just like maybe a mentor type of relationship in that he kind of took her under his wing and took these long walks with her. I don't think there's anything untoward about it is kind of what I'm getting at.

I don't have that impression either. And I have not run across a historian that's asserted that there was something untoward about it either the way they were close the way. Yeah, they were the way I took it was like an adopted little sister kind of thing.

Yeah, that's kind of the way I see it. I also don't think Charboneau would have stood for that. I think that would have been not OK with him because he was the kind of guy who would be like, that's my property, you know.

Right. Well, of course. So, yeah, I don't have that impression. But yeah, I thought the same thing, you know, as well.

And in fact, they thought so much of her, especially Clark, that and this is a really telling thing, is that they gave when they reached the Pacific Coast, there was a vote on whether or not to stay there for the winter or not. And they actually let her vote, which in the early eighteen hundreds to let a woman have a vote like that was remarkable.

Yeah. So when they when they decided to stay, that vote led to them staying in what's now Astoria, Oregon. They build a winner quarters called Fort Clatsop after a friendly tribe nearby Fort Catsup.

It's what I thought too. But it's close. There's a L in there. Yeah, Clatsop. But the Clatsop people said, hey, get this, there's a beached whale. You got to see this thing. It's enormous. And so I think Lewis was like, OK, we're going to go check this out. You guys stay here and I could go away. I know we talked about this in the Lewis and Clark episode. Takigawa I said, look, man, I have walked a long ways and helped you guys out.

And the idea that you're not going to let me see the ocean, I've never seen any ocean. You're not going to see the ocean and this giant whale that's been beached. Come on. And so Lewis relented very famously and was like, OK, come along so I could go away. It kind of she put her foot down basically and said, no, I'm going to see this. That would be unusually cruel not to let me. So she went and saw this giant whale.

She saw the ocean for the first time. I mean, it's a pretty big I've never seen a beached whale. Imagine seeing a beached whale the first time. You see the ocean, too, you know?

Yeah. I remember when I was a young kid when I we showed my grandmother the ocean for the first time and she was in her cheeks.

She was probably in her 70s. She lived to be 100. Wow. So she had to be in her mid 70s when we took her to the ocean. Yeah. And we walked her out there and she walked out on the beach.

I'll never forget it and said, oh, it's big, it's cute. And that was about it. She didn't hang it up for long.

It's like I'm good. This is enough. Yeah. And there was no whale to poke with a stick.

So I'm getting by the way, you should never do that. Poke away with the stick. Yeah, I was I was making a joke that wasn't nice.

I think everybody knew that. Chuck. Yeah. You try and get that whale back in the water if you can.

Not with the stick though. Not with the stick. You're going to take our second break. Yeah.

We'll talk about how this all wrapped up and what happened to her afterward.

Right after this stuff. You should know. Some stuff you should know.

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OK, so they made it to the Pacific, they overwinter there and I think eight, five, eight, six, and then they started to make their way back and they actually went right back to the same Hidatsa settlement, that international trading post outside of Bismarck, North Dakota, where they picked up Charboneau and Sacagawea and they said, hey, thanks a lot. We'll see you guys later. And everywhere I saw Charboneau was paid something like 500 dollars and 33 cents for his efforts and so I could go away.

It was not paid anything, although I saw also in this article that she was paid as well. What do you can do you have any idea?

Yeah, you know, I was confused to everywhere else I looked said that she did not get direct payment.

Which article said that she did? I don't know, but it doesn't seem to be right. Or maybe they just sort of said, well, since her captor slash husband was paid and sort of mean she was I'm not sure. But that's all nowhere else that said that she was actually paid independently.

And I mean, that would make the most sense. You know, although after that, that expedition, I could I would also not be surprised if she was paid directly, even though it booked, you know, convention.

Yeah, he got paid five hundred dollars and three hundred and twenty acres of land, which was pretty good. And it's like I tried to do a inflation comp, but they don't even have anything. I think it said like when you go that far back, you can't even compare it to today's really gave me an estimate of about nine grand.

Oh see I saw I saw that too. But I didn't see that as a. As a direct inflation calculator, more like the goods that you could have bought back then. No, this is not green. No, I saw that it just didn't seem like a one to one to me. Oh, I see. Um, even still, it seems like a really I would I would imagine five hundred dollars back then would be like ten trillion today, you know.

Yeah, it would seem that would seem to be the case, it's a little weird, but yeah, because I mean, like a journey of thousands of miles at the behest of the president of the United States getting paid nine grand, seems like it just seems like you would get more than that. I don't know. But then again, he's a fur trapper who only speaks Hidatsa in French. So who knows?

I think what confused me is. Like, if you enter five hundred dollars, one hundred years later, it's like fifteen thousand, or maybe that does work, I don't know, it just didn't seem to work out math wise. But what do I know?

Yeah, no, I'm with you kind of have to be able to peer back into the vagaries of the American economy over the last couple of hundred years to suss that out.

I looked it up and it said the what that would be today would be two hundred eighty beaver tails. Right. And nine thousand dollars for beaver.

I know that's the other thing about Charboneau, that people don't say he killed a lot of animals for their pet. That's right. So.

All right. So after the expedition, she stayed with Charboneau. I think a few years later they moved to with a little Baptist's moved to St. Louis at the invitation of Clark, right?

Yeah. And it says, you know, that they he offered them an opportunity of land to farm, which I don't quite get because he just got three hundred and twenty acres of land.

I was wondering if that was one in the same. Maybe I couldn't quite pass that out. But at any rate, he's like, here you come here. Here's some land to farm. If you let me educate your son in these, you know, American sort of schooling system. And, you know, that was he was the godfather of the boy at that point.

Really cared a lot about Baptist and Chicago and one of the best for him. Yeah. And I think that was a pretty decent deal for Charboneau.

Yeah. So, I mean, I believe Clark officially adopted Baptist as his guardian, at least, if not as has his adoptive parent. And he was educated at the St. Louis Academy, I believe. And then he I don't know how he met them, but Baptist went on to meet a German prince who was like, hey, you should totally come back and hang with me in Germany and I'll make sure you get a European education. And he did.

He moved to Europe and was educated. There lived a pretty interesting life, said, yeah, I'm going to go back to America, became a trapper for a while, had a bunch of different interesting jobs. I believe it was a hotel clerk in Auburn, California, for a little while. So, yeah, he did a bunch of different stuff and had a pretty, pretty amazing life as in addition to basically being this the official mascot of the the core of Discovery's expedition.

Yeah. And he he ended up taking guardianship because Charboneau and Sakaguchi left in April 1811 to go on another fur trading expedition and they left Baptiste with them. Right. So I think it kind of worked out for everyone. Yeah.

Yeah. I get the impression it wasn't like we don't want our kid and Lewis. Yeah. Give me your kid. I think like it. Right, for the best interest of the kid. And they all loved him very much. That's the impression I have.

She also had a daughter about a year after that in eighteen twelve. Lisette or Lisette. I don't know if it's an S or a Z. And this is where we get to the sort of fork in the road as to what actually happened to Chicago way. There are a couple of stories. One is that she died not long after of what was called putrid fever, which is probably typhoid fever. Terrible. There's another in which she would have been about twenty five years old in December of 1812.

There's another story that she went on to live a very long life in another part of the country. But I think that one has kind of been shot down, right? Yeah.

So at the at the turn of the last century, Sakaguchi was kind of dug out of obscurity. Well, actually, there was a guy who was the the official, I don't know, biographer, chronicler of the core of Discovery's expedition where he was in charge. His name was Bidle, I believe. Yeah. He was in charge of basically taking the notes of the core discovery, getting him ready for publication. You just couldn't publish the whole thing like that.

He he edited him basically. But he also interviewed Clark. And out of his interviews with Clark, we found a lot more out about Sacagawea than we knew before. And Bill was like, this is a very interesting story here. I'm going to put Chicago way of front and center. So he kind of brought Sakaguchi into the foreground for the first time. But then almost a century later, as the the women's suffrage movement was starting to gain momentum, there was a woman named Emily No Eva Emery Di, who wrote a book about the Lewis and Clark expedition and said, Here's my heroine, Sacagawea is a heroine.

I'm going to use her as an icon for the suffragette movement. And that's. So she kind of became this this symbol from that point on, I don't remember what kicked off the spiel, though. You asked a question, you said something. What was it you remember? What spiel, my spiel about how Sakaguchi it was kind of brought out of obscurity by these writers.

Oh, where where it came with this idea came from that she had she had gone on to live a long life. Oh, right. Right. That that first book that was written by Eva Marie Dye was picked up by another historian who said, you know what, I've heard these stories about this woman who went on to live at the Wind River Reservation. And I think she's actually Sacagawea and that kind of kicked off this whole hunt.

Yeah, because like you said, there was I mean, there are numerous, numerous people who wrote down sort of officially that she did die very young at 25 years old, including, I think, Clark in one of his I think like maybe a financial leisure, leisure, leisure. It was a cashbook about like where people like where are they where they now basically have been paid. And next to her name, he just wrote Dead, which is not even a friendly face.

I guess if it's a ledger, you're just trying to sort of, you know, be cold about it. But that for someone who really cared a lot about it, it seemed it probably wasn't the right place to wax philosophical. Right.

But also some people have said, well, no, he was covering for her because she the legend goes that she left. Charboneau ran off to live a life away from her as an independent woman. Right, exactly. Which really kind of dovetailed with the suffragette movement's push for women's rights. So that was a great idea that that that's what she did. And the idea was that Clark was covering for her in his little cash. Ledgard, by saying she was dead, knowing full well she was alive.

Other people are like, who's going to ever look in Clark's cash ledger like Charboneau is ever going to get his hands on it? That's probably not correct. And the whole idea that she went on to live on the Wind River reservation until age 100 when she died in the late 80s, makes for a good story. It makes for a great story. And there was a woman who did live like that. Her name was Evo, also known as Basils mother, who lived to be 100.

And a lot of people said, no, that's Takigawa. But that was before more historical record came out, including an account from a guy who worked for the same fur trading company that Charboneau did. New Charboneau personally and wrote in his journal had no reason to make anything up. But in December, I think on December 20th, 1812, was it? Yeah, I wrote that Charboneau, his wife, he's the one who said that she had a putrid fever and died and that she was the best woman in the fort.

She was a good woman and the best woman in the fort. She was aged about 25 years, which totally fits the bill for Sakaguchi.

And she left the Fine Infant Girl. Yes.

So once that once that guy's journal was found, that was basically the nail in the coffin of the idea that Sakaguchi had had lived to age 100 after escaping her captor husband.

Yeah, I think what's kind of cool is, you know, even though there's very little officially recorded about her life, everywhere she is recorded, it's all glowing praise. Yeah. There's not like one entry where anyone was ever like a boy in Chicago. And that baby is really like, what a mistake that was. By all accounts, she was a boon to the Corps of Discovery and a big, big part of its success. Yeah.

And so as a result, Chuck Lifetime is in Lifetime Movie Network Lifetime. I couldn't find the year, but they recently conducted a survey of memorials to create the lifetime herstory map now and of, I think, 5500 plus statues, monuments and memorials that exist in the United States.

Only about 200, which is around four percent, honor women. But of those two hundred sixteen honor Sakaguchi, which means that she is the most honored woman via monuments and statues in the entire United States. Amazing. The first one, from what I read, was by a group of suffragettes in Portland, Oregon in five. And that statue is obviously still there today and it is beautiful. And guess who's strapped to her back in the statue?

Lissette Close and Little Baptist's. Little Baptist's. Right. You got anything else?

No. Other than we should mention, I don't think we know a lot about what happened to set. Unfortunately, she was sort of lost to history.

Yeah, for sure. I guess that's it. That's all right. So since we said that's it, that means it's time, everybody, for listener mail.

Yeah, we're going to do a couple of corrections, a bit of a mea culpa for me and the correction oh, I like I said, the word redneck a lot entitled the episode about the Klan used the word redneck. And, you know, I probably shouldn't have. That's a derogatory term that the name actually has a different history. I think West Virginia coal miners has something to do with that. And I just wasn't really being sensitive enough. I'm not apologizing for for degrading the Klan.

Right. But I probably shouldn't use the word redneck with such a broad brush.

But think about the truck. That means the Klan is so rotten they give rednecks a bad name. That's essentially what we're saying here.

I love it. And then from that same episode, we need to address the Robert Byrd incident. Oh, yeah.

From a lot of people. That was all me. Yeah. So I think we were talking about Senator Robert Byrd sort of being unapologetic about being in the Klan. That was very much not the case. This is one of the many emails and this is from Aaron Patrick Lyons. He has his hey, listen to the great episode of the KKK and as usual, did a bang up job. However, I have to take issue with Josh's statement indicating that Senator Robert Byrd was an unrepentant Klansman.

He was indeed an exalted Cyclops or local leader of the Klan in the 50s into the 50s. But through the 70s and 80s, he had a sincere change of heart regarding race relations and voted for the Martin Luther King Jr. national holiday, among other legislation and his very long career. He was deeply embarrassed, embarrassed and apologetic about his time in the Klan. And that is, like I said, from Eric Patrick Aaron Patrick Lyons in Cedar Falls, Iowa.

We heard from a lot of people that not only did he vote for the MLK holiday, but apparently did a lot of work for legislation to for equal rights for African-Americans.

I totally flubbed that one. So my apologies to Robert Byrd's family for tarnishing his legacy in that small way. And I'm glad we got corrected almost immediately right after the episode came out. It was I can't believe you guys used rednecks so much. You were totally wrong about Robert Byrd. So this listener is perfect. And then there's one other thing I want to say to you about the redneck thing, Chuck. Yeah, somebody pointed out, I think it was on Twitter that using the word redneck was not only derogatory towards rednecks, it obfuscated.

It covered up all of the people who aren't rednecks who see here just kind of everyday, normal people who are in the Klan or subscribe to the Klan's ideologies, that it makes it seem like just this marginal group or a marginal thought or fringe thought when it's really kind of subscribed to by an alarming number of people that, you know, you live and work beside and might never really guess it, just how deep their racism goes. So I think that's another reason to two of the shooters as well.

Yeah.

And, you know, I'm not going to stick up for myself, but I think when you grow up in the South, you might feel like you have a little bit of ownership and can work like that for sure. So, yeah, my apologies to all the great rednecks of the world.

That's right. Sorry. Jeff Foxworthy. That's right. Sorry, Larry. The cable guy who's actually not really a redneck. If you listen to David Cross', beef with him.

Yeah. I mean, that's that's fully backed, right? Yeah.

From what I understand, he created that persona to get more offensive comedy.

That's right. And smart man. And well, I guess since we started talking about Larry the cable guy, that's the end of this episode and listener mail is petered out. And if you want to get in touch with us to correct us or call us out for something or whatever, lay it on us, send us an email to stuff podcast that I heart radio dot com.

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