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[00:00:01]

This is exactly right. I'm Melinda Jericho. I'm Daniel Henderson, and we are the hosts of I Saw What You Did, a podcast on the Exactly Right Network about the fun of watching movies. Each Tuesday, we pick a different theme. Then we pick two films that best showcase it. It's like having a friend who still owns a VCR handpick your movies. You'll definitely build your movie knowledge and find new things to watch.

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So if you love movies are sick of falling asleep to the same sitcom every night, or just want to stop fighting with your family every time we try to find something new to watch, tune into. I saw what you did and be sure to subscribe on Apple podcast Stitcher or wherever you like to listen. Hi, I'm Cara Klencke, and I'm Lisa Trager, and we are comedians as we used super fans and the hosts of That's Messed Up and Saorview podcast on the Exactly Right Network.

[00:00:58]

Every Tuesday, we'll take you through an iconic episode of Law & Order Special Victims Unit and do a deep dove into the true crime it's based on. We also interview actors from the episodes. So far we've talked to Diane Neal, a.k.a. Casey Novak, Margaret Cho, Dan Florek, a.k.a. Captain Cragen, Wyclef Jean and so many more listeners subscribe to That's Messed Up and ASV podcast every Tuesday on Apple podcast Stitcher or wherever you pod.

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John, John. This story contains adult content and language, listener discretion is advised. The failures of the vicious violators of the law in this school, two of history's most Diabolik dealers selling cadavers and corpses to the sinister Dr. Knux or his forbidden experiments. A century after the murders, William Burke and William Hare found a home in cinema and radio. Good evening.

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This is Crime Classics. I am Thomas Hilum with another true story of crime. If a body need a body, just call Burkean hair. I'm tired of waiting for him to die. Go look at. Yes, these programs helped create the mythology of Burke and hair.

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But what has really driven the legend is the sheer number of tourist attractions in Old Town garishly dress guides draped in period costume weight on a designated corner for tourists. Even in the rain, many of them are factual, even entertaining, like this one from the City of Edinburgh Tours.

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My name is back. William and I resigned on the of January 18 20.

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But historian Janet Phelps says that like any legend, there's quite a lot of misinformation.

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Tell me about sort of the things that pop up that people think. Number one, they were grave robbers and that they started off robbing graves and then got lazy, went to murder.

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Number two is probably that they were Scottish, even my son's school, actually, they did famous Scottish people in history. And Burke and Hare appeared that if you've forgotten Birken here, we're Irish.

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And I could attest to that first myth thanks to a taxi driver I met in Edinburgh.

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You know much about working here. What do you know?

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It was difficult to visit because if I don't do this, if you couldn't understand them, he said they were the ones who dug up the graves because they ran out of bodies.

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They feature in Edinburgh dungeons, obviously several, several pubs, several restaurants, a couple of lap dancing pubs to book.

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And actually it's really just one. It's in Westport where most of the murders took place in the sign, reads Burke and Hare. Pole dancing, lap dancing, no subtlety and advertising there.

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We do certainly seem to have an industry that exploits that side of Edinburgh.

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It's tricky because the history stories, you dig them up and as the stories are told, they get changed and modified and I'm not sure that some of the tourists that come here and hear these stories are hearing what actually happened.

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But then that's how myths and legends pass over time. All of these tours label and as the genesis for odd, creepy, true crime stories, as I mentioned before, in 1884, author Robert Louis Stevenson based his famous short story, The Body Snatcher on Birken Hair.

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And two years later, he wrote an even more disturbing book called The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. That story was based on another famous Scottish criminal who roamed Edinburgh at night in the late 70s and 80s. OK, tell me about Deacon Brody.

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I find the story so interesting.

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Deacon Brody then was somebody who was actually upstanding citizen during the day and during the evening he went out and he broke into houses and stole things. He was a burglar. So he was the inspiration for the story of Jekyll and Hyde and the idea that you could be a respectable citizen cabinetmaker during the day, but in the evening you were completely different. That concept that there's a little Jekyll and Hyde and all of us has always fascinated me. In fact, the title of this podcast, Tenfold More Wicked, comes from Jekyll and Hyde.

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It's the moment that Dr. Jekyll realizes how powerful his potion has become. He says, I knew myself at the first breath of this new life to be more wicked, tenfold more wicked, sold a slave to my original evil. But the phrase to me really refers to the duality of someone's personality, how we might be born inherently good, but we might also have a touch of bad in some of us have a little more than just a touch. So the story of Birken hair isn't just about murder and greed, or at least it shouldn't be, but that's always been the focus for most tours and many writers.

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And Janet Phelps says that inaccuracies can detract from the real story.

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People come in and they talk absolute rubbish about Burke and her. It's a bit like the tourism that's out there. That's not the story. You don't have to make it more gory. It's already two people that are killing people for money. It's gory enough. It was late October of 1828 and of working here weren't concerned about getting caught by now, they should have been. In fact, they might have been planning to expand their murdering scheme to Glasgow or Ireland Burkean.

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Another man were supposed to be traveling assassins of sorts.

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Harewood stay in Edinburgh to receive the bodies and deliver them to Dr Knox. It was a horrid thought, but the other man involved was interesting. Little more on that later on.

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The people of Oldtown would have been terrified if they knew that two serial killers had murdered at least 15 people that year. People were vanishing with no trace left, and the police were never alarmed as immigrants moved in and out of a city in flux, Burke and Hare continued to search for victims for easy targets.

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That October, Jamie Wilson's mother frantically searched the streets for her missing son. He had quite a large family in Edinburgh and they feared foul play. They were desperate to find him as they begged for help from the dwellers of Old Town and the police.

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The air in the city was dense with a putrid mix of smog, fog and garbage.

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It seemed perversely fitting that Halloween was here, a celebration of mischief from sundown to sunrise.

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It was also a night when people pretended to be something they weren't. In the 1824 Halloween was called All Hallows Eve in Scotland the night before All Saints Day. It marked the end of summer and the harvest season. The Scots would ward off evil spirits by lighting bonfires and lanterns, carving pumpkins was an American tradition, but in Scotland they carved turnips and turned them into spooky lanterns. Children disguised themselves as ghouls and went door to door demanding treats in an odd note.

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All of those, the Witchcraft Act of 1735 forbade the consumption of pork pastries on Halloween. It wasn't repealed until the 1950s. And since then, sausage rolls have been a popular treat at Halloween parties and gatherings. So for people in Old Town, Halloween was also an excellent excuse for a party ahead of a religious holiday.

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Halloween is the is the night before All Saints Day. So it was a religious holiday. They had Halloween parties.

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It was early in the afternoon on Friday, October 31st, William Burke was taking his ritual nip of whiskey at Reimer's store in Westport.

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He was chatting with the shop boy when he spotted an old hunched over woman entering the store. She said that she needed help finding her son. Burke picked up in the pub he used to go to Dan Reimer's at Westport, and he picked up a lady who was a slightly bemused lady looking for her son, who may very well have been somebody who was trying to get away from her.

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Her name was Mary Dockerty, but Mary Campbell was her married name.

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The old woman's only purpose for coming to Edinburgh from Ireland was to find her son, Michael.

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She said he was staying at a boarding house just outside the city. When she arrived that morning, Michael's landlady told her that she had missed him by three days.

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Dockerty thought it best to spend the night in Edinburgh. She strolled the streets along Old Town that morning and popped into dark pubs looking for Michael, all in hopes that he had wandered there.

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She was about to go, but speaking to her and discovered that her name was Dockerty, which he said was his mother's name and does actually appear to have been his mother's surname.

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So it's not some lie he was telling it, but the claim that they had the same surname therefore must be related. Mary Daugherty's smiled as Bert gushed about his family and hers. She was frail and vulnerable, especially after walking up and down the hills of Edinburgh all morning.

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Historian's own Dudley Edwards and Janet Volpe say Burke's presence cheered her up and Burke talked to her in Irish.

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Now think about the effect of that here. You're somebody whose natural language is Gaelic. Genes seem to have much less of a hold on English than Burke himself had.

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And here was this lovely voice talking to an Irish saying, you know, it'll be all right, we'll find him. But he then said, you know, it's late. Don't go. Come back. You can sleep at our place. We'll have a Halloween party.

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So this is this is the sort of person Burke had looked for. They would come into the town. It didn't know anybody, and they were about to leave. So nobody would notice. William Burke could be so charming, especially to an old woman who was desperate to find her own son, Mary, Dockerty took his arm and they walked along the cobblestones to Burke's small house.

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Soon, she was sitting by the fire in Burke's dwelling, eating porridge and milk. A neighbor stopped by and noticed that Birken Nelly McDougle were inside. John Brogan and his family had left a few weeks earlier. You've got a stranger here. The neighbor told Nellie and nodded toward Mary Dockerty. She replied that the woman was Irish, a friend Burke's. The old woman stayed quiet as she warmed up by the fire. Mary drank whiskey slowly at first. By the evening, Daugherty was so hopelessly intoxicated that when she tried to leave, Burke's neighbor suggested she stay inside so the police wouldn't arrest her.

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She slumped by the fireplace, sipping on rum.

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In the meantime, Burke returned to Reimer's store and found her drinking whiskey.

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Of course, he told her that they had what he called a shot in the house. He nodded and agreed to come to Burke's home later that night before her arrived.

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Burke would need to evict some other guests, relatives of theirs, who had been living with them rent free for about a week.

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It was Anne and James Gray and their child. Burke didn't want any witnesses. He trusted no one, even if they were family. He told The Grace that Dockerty was a relative of his mother. The Grays were being evicted.

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So the Grays were related to the books and they have been staying there, not paying any rent. And he obviously didn't want them around when this was going to happen. So he said to them, you need to move out. You're not paying rent. I've arranged for you to go and stay around another house. And he sent them out of his house where he had got beds for them.

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That evening, the Burkes quickly shuffled and and James Gray out the door even before they could gather all their belongings.

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The hairs in Berk's rejoiced with their new friend, Mary Dockerty. They dance, drink spirits and played music much of Halloween night, Burke sang his favorite Irish ballads, and they then had this Halloween party where there was Burke and Nelly, his wife.

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The hairs came round, the people who lived on the floor of Books House where he was. So Mrs. Law, they came around and John Bergen's son, there was a group of them. They all came around and had this Halloween party, which was drinking whiskey, which is drinking whiskey and dancing a really good dancer and playing the flute and this sort of thing.

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Mary Dockerty even danced, but she was a bit too enthusiastic and hurt her foot. By 10 o'clock that Halloween night, most of the neighbors had left and then around 11, they heard a huge ruckus inside the house, which wasn't out of order considering how often Bertinelli fought.

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But this involved another woman, a neighbor squinted through the front doors keyhole. She thought she saw Nellie McDougal pouring whiskey and Mary Daugherty's mouth forcefully. After a while, it grew quiet inside. The neighbor couldn't hear anything, so she retreated to her own home. Berk and hair both drink more whiskey, a lot more whiskey, and then all of their resentment toward each other. Their pent up anxiety seemed to explode. Williamsburg struggle, digging his fingers into the wooden planks of the floor, the hands of his much younger rival gripped tightly around Burke snack as he gasp for breath.

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It wasn't that hair was more capable, but the unfortunate combination of whiskey and a quick temper frequently quashed rational thinking. Burke glanced at Hair's black eyes and recognized only seething rage.

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The wife's always left the room when these sorts of things happen.

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Smart idea, except this time Nellie screamed for neighbors to call the police. Hair was straddling Burke and strangling him. Now Burke knew what his victims might have felt. Nowhere. No way to take a breath.

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A nearby inhabitant heard the cries and then heard footsteps of the person being drawn back, saw policemen of the distance, and the neighbor called for the policeman. But he did not come and the neighbor went his way. Margaret Hare tried to calm neighbors, saying it was just a drunken scuffle that would be over shortly. Most Scots knew that the police had serious crimes to deal with on Halloween, and breaking up to angry Irishmen in a brawl was not one of them.

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As Burke and Hare flailed about the room. Mary Dockerty became alarmed. She had grown fond of Burke, her distant relative and her new friend, who had helped her that night.

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She stood up and ordered Burke to sit down. She was concerned he was going to get hurt. He responded by knocking the old woman down. She tumbled over the stool. Soon she realized she couldn't interfere safely. So she crept along the straw covered floor, looking for cover.

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Somebody in that house then shouted Murder.

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And the person who lived above he was a grocer and was concerned about the contents of his shop did actually come down and investigate what was happening, looked around to see if there's anything that he tried to go and get police. But there were no police around. His store looked fine. Nothing was interrupting his livelihood.

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And so he went back to bed. Suddenly, Birken hair stopped fighting. They looked over at old Mary Dockerty then, and Hair decided to do what they had done 15 times before they put aside their fight, their contempt for each other. There were more important things to do now. They kindly suggested that she lay down. And when she obliged, Birk positioned himself on top of her, pressing his leg against her ribcage to compress her lungs.

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Her put his hand over her nose and mouth. There was a slight struggle as her face became livid and blood flecked saliva trickled out between her lips. One of the men put his hands around her throat and squeezed until it was over. But he squeezed a bit harder than usual.

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Maybe from the excitement of their fight, he left a mark on her neck. Finally, she was dead. They stripped off Mary Daugherty's clothes and hid her body under damp straw inside the bed.

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There was a knock on the door. The wives had returned. William Burke quickly walked down to Dr. Knox's dissection room and rapped on the door. The porter, David Paterson, answered. Come with me, said Burke. Patterson bundled up, and both men moved swiftly through the chilly October air. It was now officially All Saints Day, a day celebrating the Saints and the connection between the living and the dead when the Porter and Burke arrived at his home.

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He pointed to the straw and said that they would have a body ready for him in the morning. Paterson nodded and left. He didn't seem a bit concerned about the implication that this could have been murder. When the hairs in the Burkes were alone, they continued drinking, they continued dancing and playing the flute, and then they all fell fast asleep as Mary Daugherty's body lay nearby, buried in the straw. And this is how each of their murders went.

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They targeted a vulnerable person, plied them with spirits, barked them and tried to dispose of the body as quickly as possible. It was a very reliable method. But not this time. Ideally to Jericho, I'm Daniel Henderson, and we are the hosts of I Saw What You Did, a new podcast on the Exactly Right Network about the fun of watching movies. Each Tuesday, we pick a different theme, like the L.A. rebellion. Is it good or was I horny?

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I wish you were never born. Prank phone calls and the brothers Wayans. A critical assessment of esthetic. Then we pick two films that best showcase it. It's like having your friend who still owns a VCR, handpick movies. He'll definitely build your movie knowledge and fill your streaming cues.

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If you love movies are sick of falling asleep to the same sitcom every night or just need to stop fighting with your family every time you try to find something new to watch. Tune in every Tuesday to I saw what you did and subscribe on Apple podcast Stitcher or whatever you like to listen and find us on Instagram and Twitter at isopod for all your double feature needs. You know, at the beginning of an episode of Law and Order for You, there's that little message that comes on the screen and says the following story is fictional and does not depict an actual person or event.

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We don't believe you. Hi, I'm Cara Klank. And I'm Lisa Trager.

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And we are comedians as super fans and the hosts of That's Messed Up NSV podcast on the Exactly Right Network. Every Tuesday we chat about a classic episode of SVO and break down the true crime the episode is based on. We also interview an actor from the episode. So far we've talked to Diane Neal, a.k.a. Casey Novak, Margaret Cho, Dan Florek, a.k.a. Captain Cragen and Wyclef Jean and so many more. And this podcast is for S.V. Watchers and non watchers alike.

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So whether you're caught up on all four hundred and eighty six episodes or you're just a true crime fan with no idea who Olivia Benson is, you're going to love it. Listen and subscribe to That's Messed Up NSV podcast every Tuesday on Apple podcast Stitcher or wherever you pod. And don't forget to follow the show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook. Dun dun.

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Hello, I'm Bridger Winoker, I'm sorry to interrupt whatever it is you're doing, but I had no choice. I've been trying to get in touch with you and you've made it extremely difficult. I've texted. I've emailed, I've driven by your house multiple times. Your yard looks beautiful. I've been wanting to tell you about my podcast. It's called I Said No Gifts. And it has one rule, no gifts. Unfortunately, every one of my guests disobeys me, meaning we end up having to discuss the gift they brought.

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I've received gifts from all kinds of people, people like Emma Thompson Zuway, Aimee Mann, Chris Fleming, Casey Wilson, Sasheer Zamata, Joel Combustor and more. The list truly goes on and on. Now, I'm not going to tell you any of them brought me. I said I would tell you some of my guests. And in exchange, you swore that you would listen to the podcast. I've upheld my end of the bargain. Now I trust you to do your part.

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Please don't let me down. I'm not in the mood. Subscribe to I said no gifts now on Stitcher, Apple podcast, Spotify or wherever you like to listen. That's none of my business and make sure to follow. I said no gifs on Instagram and Twitter. I love you very much. And James Gray were perturbed with the relative William Burke. They were annoyed to see him when he knocked on their door at the lodging house the next morning, Burke was anxious.

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He wanted to know how they slept and he was apologetic. Families should be treated better. He admitted he offered them a dram of spirits and then breakfast back at his house.

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The Grays were wary after all, he had just ejected them last night, but they had no hope of receiving a proper meal at hares boarding house, and they had left some things behind yesterday, so they accepted his invitation. Now, remember that Burke and Hare had not yet delivered Mary Daugherty's body to Dr. Knox's lab.

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The Grays come back. They had left the child stocking's. So Mrs. Gray comes back. When they arrived, a graze met several other neighbors, along with Nellie McDougal. Where is that little old woman? Asked Nellie. She was too drunk, replied Nellie, and began acting rudely. So we told her to leave. That seems reasonable. And Greg gripped the stem of a smoking pipe in between her teeth.

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As she began searching for those stockings, she poked around the dingy bedroom. Burke was behaving oddly, even for him. He was holding a bottle of whiskey and sprinkling the contents on the bed, under the bed, on the roof, even on his chest, almost like holy water. He had no real explanation. It made no sense. And Grace began looking for her child's stocking in another section of the straw, and Burke became skittish.

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He ordered her to go into another room, which she did. But when Nellie and Burke stepped outside briefly and took her husband by the arm and returned to that suspicious pile of straw in the corner, she's looking through the straw at the end of the bed and she discovers this body.

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The grace of Mary Daugherty's armed first, then the remainder of her naked corpse. It was the little old lady from last night and told James he lifted up her head. There was blood on her mouth and ears. They were disgusted and frightened. They buried her in the straw, hurriedly gathering their things in her child and ran toward the door and she was ready to go to the police, but she then goes off.

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Then she reported to the police and she's then stopped by the two wifes Nelly and Mrs. Heather.

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It wasn't very easy to be an honest moral person, not an old town, and certainly not with these people, the Grays knew how deceitful William Burke could be. James Gray glared at Nellie and demanded to know what was buried deep inside the straw. When she tried to explain that it was all innocent. He yelled at her. I suppose you know very well what it is. Nellie fell to her knees and tried desperately to stop him from leaving.

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They offer her a large amount of money to just let this go. So there is the evidence that the wife knew exactly what was going on.

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Nellie said that the little old lady had died from too much alcohol, and Gray glanced at Nellie, a member of her own family. She knew then that she was looking at a murderer, or at least an accomplice. Nellie quickly tried another tactic.

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She promised Anna James a new business venture, a regular healthy income. The Grays were nearly destitute. They desperately needed that money. It could have changed their lives. So Nellie offered to cut them in. They didn't respond and Nellie cried, My God, I cannot help it. And Gray had made a decision. No, I'm going to go and report it to the police. So this is Mrs. Burke come back and they tell Burke and her what has happened as the GREs made their way to the police station at Oldtown, Burke and Hare panicked.

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They rushed to load Mary Daugherty's body into the tea chest.

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If there was no corpse to be found, they couldn't be charged with a crime. It would be the Grais word against theirs. Burke had already alerted Knox's porter to expect a fresh body soon, and Hair hired a Street-Porter and tied a rope around the chest, slid the man, lifted it on his back.

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A bit of gray hair fell through the lid, but the man quickly shoved it back inside. Clearly, this porter had dealt with Resurrectionists before Burkean hair, and both wives all led him toward Seargent Square, where David Patterson was expecting them. And soon, old Mary Dockerty was gone. When the three men arrived at Dr. Knox's dissection room, David Paterson answered, he handed them a down payment of five pounds. The unanimous wouldn't be able to see the body's condition until Monday.

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If it seems suitable, then Burke and Hare could return for the other five pounds. Burke was beside himself. He might have felt the shakes from too much whiskey or stress from a guilty conscience. Either way, he seemed to know that this was the end. They need to get caught because they will just carry on murdering unless somebody catches them.

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It was about seven p.m. that night when James and Anne Gray pushed open the doors of the police office in Old Town. There they met a sergeant who, along with the constable left with agrees to return to William Burke's home. The police officers were cautious. This seemed like an outlandish story even for people living in Westport. Angre led the sergeant and constable straight into the House passed Birken Nely. She pointed to the straw bed in a corner where Mary Daugherty's body was laying.

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There's nothing that there's a single spot of blood on the bed which they can explain away. Nellie McDougal said that a female lodger had slept on that straw a few weeks earlier and had some cuts. Nellie said she had never cleaned up the blood. The police eyed Mrs. Gray, who was now branded a liar, and in the conversation is brought to the police's attention that the Grays were actually staying in Burke's house and had been asked to leave because they weren't paying the rent.

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The sergeant turned to William Burke. What became of your lodgers? He asked. Burke pointed to James Gray and said, There's one of them. We evicted them for bad behavior. That, of course, wasn't true. But William Burke was desperate now, and it seems like the officers believed him. So when the police were told about this, they came to make an investigation, there, were suspicious of the story rather than of the crime. It seemed to be a strange kind of thing that being said, that now the body had been there and not the body wasn't.

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Anyhow, the police knew back there had been this time a couple of months earlier when Burkhardt found two policemen fighting with a very drunken woman and she seemed to have been winning.

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Nelly McDougall launched into a very detailed story about how they had known Mary Dockerty for some time, they knew her very well. In fact, the grace stood there dumbfounded. Now they weren't being believed. And the police begin to think this is just sour grapes, they just being vindictive here and they're going to forget it and insisted to the police over and over again that there had been a body there. When she left, the old woman was practically in a drunken stupor when the Grays had been kicked out and now she was dead.

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The police didn't believe her or her husband.

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They could have taken that money and just disappeared and Birkenhead would have gone on forever. But they don't. They go to the police. So I guess that they're almost like the moral compass in this story. They are doing what should have been done when they discovered it.

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But Mary Daugherty's body was gone. There was no evidence. And that was the brilliant thing about Burke and Harry's method. Once the victim was with Dr. Knox, he or she was just another corpse on the table of an anatomist. If there had been any signs of murder and intensive dissection would have made them impossible to detect afterward. Now, it was the word of four people against the grace, and James picked up their belongings and left. Burke and Hare had gotten away with it once again.

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Oh, no. Even in modern times, a case like this still would have been difficult to prove. But if anyone could have done it, it would have been Daniel Westcourt and his collection of donated cadavers, which lay across 26 acres in central Texas. All right. So these bodies have been had here, probably the first ones we're going to come up to just a little over a year. And so they're almost all skeletonized at this point. They're about ready to come in and they're under a cage.

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These are under a cage. So they were protected from vultures and stuff like that. So this is just a natural kind of without predator decomposition that you would have.

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Dr. Westcott is a forensic anthropologist. In fact, he's one of the best in America. He's the director of the Forensic Anthropology Center at Texas State University in San Marcos. He runs the world's largest body farm. It's a pretty gruesome phrase that's also very, very accurate. This is a human decomposition research laboratory. Donors gift Dr. Westcourt and his team, their bodies so forensic science students can study how they decompose.

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This one is actually kind of look like a coffin. So it's just a box with the body in there. What they're actually looking at is movement of the body and then how the joints disarticulated. OK, and this is actually for an archeological thing. So you think about if you dig up an archeological site, you're looking at, you know, sometimes hundreds or thousands of years of processes that go on. So the question is, how do they actually get to those exact processes?

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Dr. Westcourt receives as many as 70 body donations a year. Some are covered by metal cages. So scavenger animals like coyotes and vultures can't reach them. Others are buried to measure how they degrade under the ground. This is some of the best research on forensics in the world. These cadavers are used to solve crimes, educate law enforcement through workshops and save lives. But this isn't the easiest location for me. So now we'll start getting somewhere, there's more soft tissue left.

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This was a pretty strong smell, I guess you get used to it and you get used to it like anything else, Dr. Westcourt teaches the country's top forensic science students through hands on experience.

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Around 30 graduate students monitor the site daily, taking measurements like body temperature and levels of decomposition. They scan through footage from the various wildlife cameras Wescott has set up. It's a unique learning experience for students who might end up working for the federal government or a local law enforcement agency. One body is used for decades in many different ways, including murder investigations.

[00:34:31]

We also do cold case work for the police. So if we have, you know, badly decomposed or skeletonized remains, the police will call us. We will go out and help with the recovery will go. We'll do the analysis, will help facilitate the identification of the individual all the way through. So it may be that, for example, like Mike, I estimate the time since death and it may actually exonerate somebody. So one body donation can really affect so many people and education and in solving cases, I mean, it's valuable.

[00:35:10]

This is a valuable thing. Oh yeah. For us, especially the way that we utilize the body. Like said, everybody that's donated to us gets put into a research project. Dr. Robert Knox seemed to be at a crossroads in October of 1828, the tension within his team was undeniable and the acrimony and jealousy among colleagues was only becoming worse. And he was widening his research interests and not in a positive direction. Knox was pondering, writing a book on his theory of human history, something that he believed would change the world.

[00:35:47]

It would be based on his observations of black people while he was stationed with the British military in South Africa in the mid. The dominant view was that race determined people's culture, behavior and even their character. Researchers in Europe and North America pointed to those factors to support slavery and anti-Semitism. But as usual, Knox was conflicted and complicated. He was anti-Semitic, but he also railed against slavery. Knox believed that races were distinct species with specific aptitudes. Some were born to lead.

[00:36:24]

Others were not. Regardless of his political and cultural views, Knox was becoming increasingly arrogant. He isolated himself from other anatomists in the city. But that wasn't a concern because his classes were filled to capacity. His family was well cared for and his body suppliers were reliable. After all, he was using the cadavers for the good of society to train surgeons and to save lives. And that's what Anonymise today argue those who buy corpses legally. But what about those who break the rules?

[00:37:00]

Anthony Horne with the Catholic Church is concerned about those people, the story of Broken here isn't entertaining to him at all. It's a history lesson, one that illustrated how a lack of respect for human remains can do so much damage. We appreciate that the bodies are used for research purposes, and that's, I suppose, for for humanity, that can be a good thing.

[00:37:25]

But in terms of retrieving bodies or, you know, getting people's permission to do that once they've died, holding families are not appropriate and should not be encouraged.

[00:37:40]

That might sound ridiculous today. Does that still happen? Yes, it does. There's quite a lot of controversy over modern day organ thieves, private agencies that buy bodies and organs from bereaved families. These body brokers promise relatives that the cadavers will be used for medical research to help save lives or make new discoveries. The families believe they're making an altruistic, selfless decision. They're usually promised a free cremation after the organs or bodies are no longer needed. But the truth is, once the contract is signed, the bodies can be used for a myriad of things, regardless of the family's request.

[00:38:18]

And there are few regulations in America to stop them in 2018. Reuters published an excellent investigative series called The Body Trade. Cashing in on the donated dead. Reporters John Shifman and Reed Levinson created an incredible seven part series that is fascinating and horrifying. They discovered that these non transplant tissue banks are selling parts overseas, different organs to different countries. So there's no hope of receiving ashes or at least the family members. Ashes, Schiffman and Levinson wrote. They are distinct from the organ and tissue transplant industry, which the U.S. government closely regulates.

[00:38:56]

Selling hearts, kidneys and tendons for transplant is illegal, but no federal law governs the sale of cadavers or body parts for use in research or education.

[00:39:07]

So how do you know if your body is going to be used the way you intended? Shifman found that the most reliable places to donate are universities or in America. State agencies. Avoid body brokers. At the University of Edinburgh, Ian Campbell says that they make sure that students understand just how crucial it is to respect the bodies they're working with, the students all have to sign a code of conduct.

[00:39:35]

It's not a case of texting me.

[00:39:37]

So I guess my identity, the respect, the body, a way of doing that is with a memorial service all the first years at hand.

[00:39:45]

And I think it reconnects them with the idea of what the material they've been using to learn from is actually connected in real life to the people they see before them, the mothers, daughters, cousins, brothers, sisters of the people who have generously donated their body.

[00:40:06]

And there are other issues, like a black market for body parts to be sold by their living owners. William Winslade is a psychotherapist and a professor of philosophy of medicine at the University of Texas. He says that selling your body parts is actually pretty easy.

[00:40:20]

There's a whole underground of people that will sell parts of their body. There's a website you can go to it. You can find people that are willing to sell a kidney, even though it's illegal to do so, Winslade says it's not just illegal, it's dangerous.

[00:40:37]

But much like in Birkenhead Harris time, there's still a supply and demand problem.

[00:40:42]

Are they selling selling bones or. Surgeons need to practice. They need to they need to have tissue and bones to learn. And there isn't probably enough donated stuff. So there are people that are, you know, under the table.

[00:40:58]

If we dismiss the ethical issues for a moment, there's still the idea that once you're dead, your usefulness might not need to end.

[00:41:07]

Jeanette Phillips says there is an argument for not wasting body's valuable material if they can be used for the greater good, that they would have just gone into a grave and rotted away because they were taken to Norks. They trained thousands of surgeons on them. And you've got to fight. That is that is a better use of that body than just putting it in the ground.

[00:41:27]

But of course, the rebuttal is also really convincing.

[00:41:31]

Yes, you're training all these doctors. But if that person is of the belief that they need the body to be whole, to get up to heaven and then, you know, their wishes should be observed.

[00:41:42]

And that's at the crux of the story, respect the lack of respect for human remains for the people they once were, and the callousness of science in some cases. But for Burke and Hare, their contribution to medicine, such as it was, would end in October of 1828 and one of them would himself end up on an anatomists table. But which one on All Saints Day, the two police officers lingered an evening candlelight near the doorway of William Burke's little flat.

[00:42:16]

The investigators were still wondering about that woman, the Grays. We're talking about Mary Dockerty. Where exactly did she go? William Birken. Nellie McDougal repeated their story. She had stayed with them for just a bit for the celebrations. And yes, she had a bit too much whiskey.

[00:42:34]

They speak to the books about the Mary Campbell and they admit that they knew her. They say that she was at that party, but that she left at seven.

[00:42:42]

One officer stepped away with Burke, determined to ask more questions without Nellie around. Burke looked at his wife as she talked with a different officer about the details. Like what time exactly? Mary Daugherty left their house brokenly. Both confirmed that she left at seven. But there was a problem is only when they talk to Burke and his wife.

[00:43:04]

Separately, they discovered one of them is talking about 7:00 in the morning and one of them is talking about 7:00 at night. On the final episode of this season of Tenfold More Wicked. What is he saying? What were the highlights of this, you know, document that was printed? Well, he was mainly saying is that Knox knew all about it. There's only one particular person who says that he has a vendetta against Knox at that point.

[00:43:38]

I have the dubious honor of having responsibility and ownership of a mass murderer skeleton. And part of me thinks, well, crikey, no, I don't like that. But the way that his legacy can be turned out to be positive is really heartwarming.

[00:43:58]

If you love historical true crime, be sure to order my book, American Sherlock. It's about a real life Sherlock Holmes who solved some of the most gruesome murders in the 1920s. This has been an exactly right and tenfold fold more media production producers Jason Whaling and Laura Sobell, sound designer. Eric Friend, composer. Curtis Heath artwork.

[00:44:21]

Nick Todger, executive producers, Georgia Howard Stark, Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Cramer. Clips at the beginning of the episode are from the movie Peter Cushing, The Fiendish Schools and the radio show Crime Classics.

[00:44:35]

From the episode titled If A Body Need a Body, Just call Burke and Hare. Follow us on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more wicked and on Twitter at tenfold more. If you're an advertiser interested in advertising on our show, go to Mirel Dotcom ads. And if you know of a historical crime that could use some attention. Email us at info at tenfold more wicked dotcom. So please listen, subscribe leave us a review on Apple podcast, Ditcher or wherever you get your podcasts.