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[00:00:13]

So you guys may have noticed something really weird happening in our pop culture, this weird thing happening in the circles of comedy, people like Sarah Silverman suddenly realizing the council culture is bad, Louis C.K. realizing the council culture is bad. Dave Chappelle realizing the council culture is bad. You're saying yourself, wait a second, none of those people are even remotely on the political right. I mean, Louis C.K. is mostly famous for shouting about Sarah Palin's private zone.

[00:00:36]

And Sarah Silverman is mostly famous for shouting about how Donald Trump is the worst Orangeman, whoever was orange and also a man. So what exactly happened here? The answer is that the radical left lost its mind and they took over a lot of the liberal blogosphere. And what they've decided is that jokes are now forbidden. If you make a joke, then you must be canceled. I mean, and it's everybody everybody in comedy world is scared of this.

[00:00:56]

Aziz Ansari has a whole bit about council culture in his new special.

[00:01:00]

And ultimately, I just felt terrible. This person thought this way. Made not just me, but other people be more thoughtful. And that's a good thing.

[00:01:11]

Like, literally, every comedian is now obligated to first apologize for all the bad things they've done and then deride council culture, which they should, because council culture is the death of comedy. See, comedians have to exist on the edge. Comedians have to say the unsayable. They have to say the taboo. A lot of comedy lies in saying a truth that everybody finds deeply uncomfortable or in saying something shocking. It's so much of comedy is shot comedy where the shock itself is what drives the humor or saying something that nobody thought you would say, because it just was something that you couldn't say, that when you get rid of those aspects of comedy, not much is left.

[00:01:41]

And this is why you have seen so many on the political left attempting to overtly redefine comedy. You see this in the reviews of Hannah Gadsby. Hannah Gadsby's entire comedy routine is saying a deeply unfunny things over and over and over about telling a sad sack story about her life to the rave reviews of the of the reviewing community.

[00:01:58]

The feedback, apparently, she said, I was very disappointed in your show this year and I just don't think there was enough lesbian content.

[00:02:13]

I've been on stage the whole time. Those folks say that she has redefined laughter, she hasn't she simply has transformed the role of the comedian into a sort of social voice. By the way, nobody highlights the crisis in comedy. Like my friend Matt Walsh, he's done a few videos going through the routines of these SJW so-called comedians. And I won't spoil it for you, but let me say, he is just one million times funnier. His new one on Hannah Gadsby, it just came out yesterday.

[00:02:42]

You should check that out over on his YouTube channel and watch his suffering. It used to be the comedians did both comedians did social commentary and they also did comedy. But the comedy came first. Now the comedy has gone completely out the window because you might offend somebody. And here's the thing about most comedy. Most comedy does offend somebody. Conservatives for a long time have talked about the fact that most of the comedy made in the 1970s, the Mel Brooks comedies, for example, none of those could be made today.

[00:03:04]

Airplane could not be made today. So many funny movies could not be made today. Everything has to be canceled because it's offensive to somebody. And comedians are starting to pick up on this. Why Jerry Seinfeld says he's no longer going to perform on college campuses. Why bother? There's just nothing in it for him. Well, in this episode, we talk with a bunch of extraordinarily famous comedians now, people who have made their living, making people like you and me laugh.

[00:03:25]

Yeah. So it's really funny. There's a lot of humor in the episode. But what the episode is really about is Americans from all areas of America's political life, recognizing that comedy simply cannot survive in intolerance environment. I mean, if we can't laugh at ourselves, then who exactly is going to be able to tell a joke? See, here's the thing. It's not enough for a comedian to be funny. It's that you, the audience, you have to be self-effacing.

[00:03:46]

You have to be willing to take a ribbing as a member of the public sphere, as a person who's in the public eye a lot. I've been targeted by comedians regularly and honestly, I kind of find it amusing. The reason I find it amusing is because most jokes about me tend to be kind of true. I talk too fast to spout facts really quickly. I make arguments that stack up one on top of another really, really fast.

[00:04:06]

Here's what a single payer health care system would actually do. OK, folks. It would actually make doctors literal slaves, so would have to live in cabins on a plantation somewhere. All right, folks. And the idea and the idea that doctors are just your slaves, you can you can, you know, marry without their consent and then make half doctor half regular people babies. Well, OK. Well, then what happens to the babies? Are they now doctors?

[00:04:28]

Are they slave doctors who have to be doctors or are they free now? OK, so that's why that system would just never work. There's a lot about me that's funny because there's a lot about everybody that's funny. But the American people seem to have lost a sense of humor about themselves. The only people who are expected to accept jokes about themselves are Christians, white males, straight people. That's pretty much it. Otherwise, if you're a member of a historically marginalized or victimized group, no one can ever make a joke about you.

[00:04:51]

And not only that, if we find a joke about you from like five years before and you don't like that joke, you can cancel the person. So we will cancel Kevin Hart on the Oscars. He just won't be on the Oscars anymore. If you find a joke that he made a long time ago about not wanting his son to be gay. If you are a comedian who made a joke years and years ago where you dressed up as Karl Malone, as Jimmy Kimmel did, then you will be forced to go on a leave of absence because the thing that was completely inoffensive when you did it has now become offensive.

[00:05:17]

The lines are shifting, the lines are moving, and comedians feel like nothing is safe and they are correct. They are looking back at their old work and realizing that that can get them canceled. The purpose of council culture is to destroy a sense of humor. A society without a sense of humor is also a society. They can't look at itself and recognize human flaw, a society without a sense of humor. As a society seeking utopia, the Soviet Union was not famous for having a sense of humor because any time you seek utopia, you first have to get rid of the basic human understanding that people are flawed.

[00:05:44]

Because if we recognize people are flawed, utopia is impossible. So if you want to make Utopia possible, first, wipe away any vestige of humility, of self effacement, wipe away any expectation that people are going to make fun of you and instead put in place an arrogant assessment of the world in which no one is entitled to laugh at you. And if anybody does laugh at you, that's because the system needs change. On this episode, we're going to talk with a bunch of comedians about precisely these topics.

[00:06:10]

I think you're really going to enjoy it. It was fun to talk to all of them. This episode is pretty hilarious. We're going to get started in just a moment. But first, let's talk about a simple fact. You require life insurance, why you're a responsible adult. You want to make sure that your family is taken care of in case, God forbid, you should plot. And with everything going on right now, a lot of people are asking if it's even possible to buy life insurance at all.

[00:06:27]

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[00:06:50]

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[00:07:08]

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[00:07:35]

It's nice to get it right. Larry Wilmore has been a television producer, actor, comedian and writer for over 25 years. Many people probably recognize him most as the senior black correspondent from his time on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. He also hosted and wrote his on The Nightly Show with Larry Wilmore at Comedy Central. He created The Bernie Mac Show for which he won an Emmy. He helped launch Black Ash on ABC. And he's one of the creators of Insecure over on HBO.

[00:07:59]

You can hear him on the podcast, Larry Wilmore, Black on the Air, or he combines humor and the issues of the week encompassing sports, politics, entertainment and culture. So, Larry is just a delight. I mean, we're so glad that that he decided to cross the aisle and have the conversation with him. I warned him several times that he would receive blowback from his own side simply for being in the same room with me, because that is the way that it works.

[00:08:20]

Whenever somebody from the left comes into the studio, I warn them, don't tell anyone you are here because you're just going to get crap from people. But Larry was like, you know what? I don't even care. I just want to have good conversation with you. It was fantastic. And for that, I really thank Larry. From Episode fifty five. Listen to Larry and me discuss how comedy has become politically one sided. And no one made jokes about Obama for eight long years and how nowadays comedians are going more for Clapp's than for laughs.

[00:08:49]

So I want to talk about the comedy side now, so sure. So obviously this hasn't been funny. Guys, how much time do we have? Can we go to another commercial? No, not yet. We're out of commercial right now. Are there more coming? We have to monetize you to the fullest possible. But let's let's talk about the comedic world. So I'm going to give you the conservative critique of the comedic world. Yes. I've heard some of your critique.

[00:09:12]

I am sure you have. So I did one just just a couple of days ago and Stephen Colbert. So can I ask you a question? Sure.

[00:09:18]

Why do you have a conservative critique? Comedy is a conservative critique.

[00:09:23]

I think when you hear the critical understanding, like what does that have to do with anything?

[00:09:27]

The critique is that today's comedy has become politically one sided. That's the conservative critique. But if you look at late night, what you're seeing is Jimmy Kimmel, who I have, I will I will say I have used the term Wolke pope to describe him, that he is the pope of Amancio. He did start with the man show, but he's come a long way since his roots. Yes. Since he was doing bouncing boobs out with with Adam Carolla.

[00:09:49]

And and then you've got Jimmy Fallon, who's basically been excoriated for the great sin of touching Donald Trump's hair. And then you have Fallon isn't he's not in the category that, you know, he sort of moved political after that happened specifically. I mean, he had to come out and had to apologize for it and all this kind of stuff. And then you have Colbert, who's obviously very loud and proud. Right. Very much to the left for years, did a Bill O'Reilly routine to mock and all of that.

[00:10:12]

And so a lot of conservatives look at the comedic world and they say, why is this so one sided? Why isn't there they'll even look back fondly to Jay Leno and Johnny Carson and say, at least these guys made jokes about both sides. And as a conservative, I can say that when I watch a lot of these shows, I feel the same way. I look at them and I say, no one made a joke about Barack Obama for eight years now that I agree with you.

[00:10:31]

I talked about this very recently, the Obama part. And I felt that, first of all, why comedians, especially comedians definitely on the left, were afraid of making the wrong joke about Obama. And when they did make jokes about Obama, they were flattering jokes. You know, like nobody really made real observational jokes about Obama. That's why the impressions of Obama weren't that good, because nobody was making really good observations about him, you know? And someone said, well, what about the angry translator said that is that is an observation on black culture, not really about Obama.

[00:11:01]

And it was flattering to Obama. The whole thing was Obama's so self-control, so poised and which is fine. And it was funny. But I mean, the people were so precious with him. And I wish there was more of that, you know, because to me, that's part of a comedian's job. Now, the other part of it, I believe we're in a cycle. A lot of these things go in cycles. And I think what's popular now is that it's kind of maybe the Jon Stewart effect, because John was John was just very good.

[00:11:24]

But remember when nobody was doing that, you know, we did on my show, the nightly show going on with with that approach. And John Oliver certainly in his show. But, you know, I think these things go in cycles in the marketplace. And I feel, you know, when you feel like you're on the outside of it, I can't be in on the joke, but I don't think all of it is like that. I think Saturday Night Live really tries its best to be fair in that way and you know, as much as they can.

[00:11:48]

And they've gotten criticized for for some of that. And by fare, I mean really trying to poke holes at both sides, you know, but I think a lot of it is driven by the marketplace and what seems to be popular in that sort of thing as well as that's what, you know, someone like Colbert, that's what he wants to do. And that's what he wants to talk about as well to both of those things. I mean, the zeitgeist can be very picky.

[00:12:11]

Those guys can turn on you in a moment. One thing I learned about showbiz two years from now, we may be having a different conversation. So what happened to all those political comedians?

[00:12:18]

And I wonder if this case is moving against comedy generally. So one of the things that I've noticed and commented on is I saw Hannah Gadsby's special, not a fan. And and one of the things that I saw is the critics basically saying that that Hannah Gadsby shouldn't make you laugh, but she made you think and it was a new kind of comedy. And so it seems as though she's moving for what on my show I call clapped her. It wasn't it wasn't really for laughs.

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It was it was more for. Oh, that's amazing. And, you know, and sort of a sympathetic laughter as opposed to the laughter of recognition of reality, which is usually the best kind of comedy, in my opinion.

[00:12:53]

It's tough to say, Ben, because many times these kind of critiques are resisting something as well, you know, because sometimes these critiques are people want something to be like what they've seen already, you know, and many times when you're doing something new, people don't like it because it's different and it doesn't conform to rules that they like. I'm happy with these rules. Why are you doing something different? You know? And so I think a lot of critics are borne out of that.

[00:13:19]

Like, to me, I'm like, Jesus, who cares if she does something different? Like there's a lot of other comics out there, you know? Oh, no, listen, more power to her. I'm I'm happy for her that she's she's earning wealth and fame. All that's fine. But the the redefinition by critics of comedy itself in order to meet somebody who they agree with politically, I find troubling simply because it used to be that you would watch something that was sort of funny or it was not funny.

[00:13:41]

Like I could acknowledge that Jon Stewart I could disagree with politically is a deeply funny human being. I mean, he's really funny, right?

[00:13:47]

But you may not laugh if you don't agree in. For the clapper comes in like Tina Fey used the same term, by the way, she was she was making the same observation years ago, but. People, because they get last with that, those are laughs, you know, people do think it's funny now you can say yes, but it's a gripping funny, which is also true. But that's what they're doing.

[00:14:08]

I just wonder if we're moving away from a time when people can make even most kinds of jokes. So Seinfeld refuses to go on college campuses now because he's afraid of being shouted down. You make certain kind of jokes on YouTube to monetize you. It depends on on the kind of joke I the other night, my wife and I made the mistake of watching airplane again. And Airplane is a very funny movie, but it's a time bound movie like you watch it now and you can watch it sort of in the privacy of your own home, looking around to make sure that nobody else is watching us.

[00:14:36]

No, absolutely we did. I did a show called The Jersey Goes, an animated show. Eddie Murphy was like claymation type of thing. And we did a joke on there with this observation 20 years ago where Thurgood, at the end of the projects, he finds when Richard Pryor's old albums and it's like that N-word is crazy and he's like and they're like, super.

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Can we both have to play? You can't even say this anymore. Was joke. So believe me, this is something that's been happening over a long period.

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I mean, are you worried about that? Because I've always been worried about that. But I realized in some ways there's nothing I can do about it. Look, I ran into this in the early 90s. I took you a little bit about this on the phone where where, you know, another comic kind of shut me down not airing something because I didn't agree with what I was saying, you know, and to me, that was like, how is she making assault on speech?

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You know, what's going on here? Why are we being precious about this? ABC just the other night aired, you know, their tribute to All in the Family and The Jeffersons. Right. You know, and they actually bleeped a couple of words that weren't bleeped back.

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And there's no Al in the family makes the air today.

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It's the same, you know. So this is this cultural shift has been happening for a long time.

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I blame it all on Alaf, you know, came on in the 80s, changed everything. And Alfie's an illegal immigrant. I mean, I was responsible for an illegal immigrant because illegal alien. Exactly. Build a wall. Well, if you've been a fan of my show for a while, it's likely you've heard of Louder with Crowder and the ridiculous inferior crap mug leftists here. Assemblers are by far the superior beverage vessel, as has been established by multiple scientifically verified studies that shows host Stephen Crowder started doing standup comedy at just 17.

[00:16:11]

He spent three years at Fox News before hitting his stride with his own YouTube channel. His early videos found an audience which brought about the popular Internet comedy show Louder with Crowder and the Incredible Meme. And Change My Mind. If you haven't seen Change My Mind, Stephen sits down with folks of different political persuasions to have a civil discourse on the latest trending issues. And it gets. While I've been friends with Stephen Crowder for a very, very long time, in fact, the first time that Steven Crowder came over to my condo, he put me in a chokehold and nearly knocked me out.

[00:16:37]

This is just one of the things that I despise about Stephen. One of the highlights of my life was actually watching him waterboarded during one of his live shows is pretty spectacular. Just sat there drinking and watching the man being waterboarded. Crowder is fearless. He's utterly insane. And he somehow showed up wearing essentially underwear to our interview, which was deeply uncomfortable for everyone. Steven did make that unfortunate decision when he joined me in Episode 19. You can see that if you want your eyeballs burned out the back of your head.

[00:17:03]

But that aside, we had an interesting discussion on where comedians should draw the line if President Trump is a comedian or just kind of rude and how Stephen grades the impact of the president on his younger conservative fans.

[00:17:22]

So let's talk about the fact that you do a lot of really controversial comedy, so where do you draw a line? So there's a lot of talk these days about where comedians ought to draw lines, as you mentioned. And Benjamin Benjamin has been taken to task for using the N-word in one of his comedy routines. Where do you think it's appropriate to draw lines of comedians? Do you think there should be any lines as a comedian? Obviously, there are certain things that you won't do, even though you're the guy who paints Muhammad with menstrual blood as Bob Ross on camera.

[00:17:48]

Where do you decide where those lines are and when is it appropriate to cross them? OK, that's a good example because context is more important than content. Let me let me let me preface this with I don't know if it was Phyllis Diller who said this or it might have been Dennis Miller who repeated it. I don't know the original person who who to whom this quote is attributed, but basically nothing is off limits except the helpless. So in other words, you don't go down to a special needs baby and hire unless you're liberal and you want to abort the Down's syndrome baby.

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Apparently they're OK with that. So nothing is really off limits. Now, I have limitations as to what I'm comfortable doing and everyone will have their own line as a society. I'm very uncomfortable with saying this is these are the list of appropriate words. These are lists of inappropriate words like we were just talking about before DMX. I was listening to the N-word MFR B word talking about killing people and the do we have to bleep me because what we can believe it, OK, is the word they bleep out.

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It's the explicit version. That's the one word they eliminate now. But really, these are the words that we're picking on. And of course, N-word would be included if you weren't black. So it really is a political tool and I never want to play a role in that game. That being said, you know, I think that's a good example. So you talk about painting Muhammad and menstrual blood. Let's take the context of that. That on its surface sounds bad, granted, right.

[00:19:00]

It sounds pretty bad, but buzz feeds boldly the land. Well, women there, you know, the fat pride feminists, they were painting and menstrual blood. And they had done a lot of, of course, always a. a. sort of Judeo-Christian videos for a long time. So we did a parody, Bob Ross painting Muhammad and Menstrual Blood, and it got worse from the Barbarossa state, threatened to sue us. And then we drew that meeting from a pile of fecal matter next to Muhammad.

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And we never heard from them again. We never heard from again.

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What I've always said, and we're not necessarily a shark in the comedy role, but we can be a puffer fish. We'll make them wish they picked somebody else. Even if you get torn off of every platform will make them wish that they picked somebody else. That's kind of our motto. So contextually, when you look at that, you go, oh, this is satire. This is parody. We didn't just do it out of the blue. It was featured on YouTube that women painting with menstrual blood.

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We didn't start it. We didn't we didn't start a trend, knew it was them. So they painted first blood, not me.

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Well, what do you make of the of the merger of sort of comedy and politics? So you're a comedian, you label yourself a comedian. Everybody knows you as a comedian, but you do see political actors. President Trump is basically a standup comic. Most of what he does is. Political comedy disguised as politics, and what this means is that he crosses lines that you will cross, but people are not sure what to make of it. Are we supposed to take it like comedy or are we supposed to take it like politics?

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Is he just being politically is he being politically incorrect as a comedian or is he just being a jackass?

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I think he's thoughtless. I think is a big difference. I mean, there's there's no question that I know where the line is and I know how to walk up to it and dance on the line and pull it back. You know, if I cross the line, it's very deliberate. I don't think that's the case with President Donald Trump. I genuinely don't think he knows. But one thing that I do think is interesting about Donald Trump, because obviously you weren't a big fan of his and in a lot of ways still aren't.

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And I was not at all during the primaries and a lot of ways I'm still not. I think we're seeing a transition with President Trump that you've seen with a lot of young conservatives who we reach. I think he was a guy who gave the Democrats for most of his life who really just was doing business in New York. I don't really think he was a dyed in the wool Democrat either. No, I think he was whatever he needed to get his latest structure with his name emblazoned across it erected.

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And I think what you're seeing now, though, is he's come in. He thought the left would play ball a little bit, and they've been so vicious, which we've known them to be. They've attacked his family personally. We're now just, OK, screw you. And he's becoming more conservative. I think we're seeing a genuine transition of him becoming more right wing, kind of like, I hate to say. But Ebenezer Scrooge, later in life, everyone can kind of be redeemed.

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Like I got it wrong all these years. I think we're seeing that with President Trump. I do think there's some of that. But how do we deal with the fact that he's you're not toxic in the same way to young people. So young people watch your show because they know you're a comedy guy. They're willing to give you the benefit of the doubt when you say something that's offensive, because as you say, you know what's offensive. You know it's not.

[00:21:41]

And if you're being offensive, it's generally being deliberately offensive for comedic purposes. President Trump just sort of says things and he's and he's very toxic for young people. I mean, there's no question you look at the polls among young people, he's wildly unpopular. How do you how do we continue to maintain lines or draw lines? What do you think we are doing? Here's something else that he's unpopular in the sense that a lot of your fans and my fans probably aren't huge Trump supporters.

[00:22:05]

That being said, they do like that. Someone has sort of thrown the gloves off a little bit. So I think it's important to look at how the question is being framed. We're going to say, oh, and 90 percent of Americans are pro-abortion, but they want to give him a cut off or you show him a fetal chart, fetal development chart that changes.

[00:22:18]

Right. So I think with Donald Trump, if you were to ask me, are you a Donald Trump fan, I'd probably answer no. But if you were to ask me, do you think that Donald Trump has done a relatively good job as president? I'd probably say yes, if you would ask me, or I think we would both agree on this culturally. Definitely. He's opened the door for conservatives to not be so ashamed of what they are, even though he's not one of them.

[00:22:39]

But I don't think Marco Rubio would have done this. I don't think even Senator Ted Cruz I don't think Chris Christie obviously would have gone after the media in the same way that Donald Trump has. So I think even though this thing is squeaking as it's being caught up on it, totally fine. All right. All right, fine. I'm just making sure it's the replication. It's not me. I just wanna make sure on. It's I'm making sure that people know it's not me, is my point, and this is important for me.

[00:23:03]

It's not everything is about you. There you go. You can hear the squeak. It's the. So I think that's what's important about President Donald Trump. I think even though people may not like him, I think a lot of young people are happy to see the burdens, the shackles of political correctness kind of be thrown off. And he has helped pave the way for that.

[00:23:18]

We heard from Joe Rogan just a couple of weeks ago in our best of the Intellectual Dark Web series. I was also just on the show to discuss my brand new book. You should check both of those out. They're both spectacular. We're bringing him back for our discussion on Roseanne Barr and the enormous implosion of her show. In the midst of being a smash success after a racist tweet about Valerie Jarrett, Joe, himself a comedian, has been doing standup since the late 80s, still regularly doing shows out here in L.A. before the pandemic.

[00:23:41]

He's also acted on several sitcoms. He's filmed and released several comedy specials. It's really interesting to see how Roseanne Barr never came back. It's really fascinating. If you are canceled and you're perceived to be on the right, you never get the comeback. If, however, you're like Ice Cube and you just tweet randomly anti-Semitic stuff repeatedly forever, you'll just continue to get jobs. So Roseanne Barr has done her time in the wilderness. She has repented.

[00:24:02]

Her sense doesn't matter. They're still not going to let her back on TV because repentance is not available unless you fully embrace all of the WOAK culture. In Episode four, Joe and I talk about how people can survive making jokes for a living in a council culture environment and what happens when the mob chooses victim.

[00:24:24]

What do you make of the rise and fall, do you think that ABC was right to, say, dump our show after after her bizarre tweet about Valerie Jarrett?

[00:24:30]

Well, what's interesting is just saying that she was going to be on my podcast. She said it. And then I got all these tweets that were saying, boycott Joe Rogan, the UFC should fire me for having this racist on my podcast. Like, no, I'm going to have a conversation with one of the greatest stand up comedians of all time, a person who I deeply respect, who I think is mentally ill. She is on a host of different medications.

[00:24:52]

She's taken Ambien and drinking. She was pushed to the brink of exhaustion doing that television show. And she's made some very poor choices with some of the things that she said she would be the first to tell you that. And I don't think that you I don't think you could get an understanding of her from a tweet or from a one sentence description of what she did. I think you need to hear her and hear her talk. She's going to be the first person to tell you she's crazy.

[00:25:23]

And she is she's she's essentially, at least functionally mentally ill. Know. But it's also why she's such a brilliant comedian and she's always been what you would call a stir if people don't remember, like when she used to when she sang the national anthem, grabbed her crotch and spit on the ground and everybody went crazy. That's Roseanne, you know. And I think people wanted to turn her into this lovable mother. There's this like thing that people do when life gets weird, which is like where it's at right now, where they want to look back to the past where things just made sense.

[00:26:00]

Can't we just bring back the Roseanne of old look, John Goodman's there, too. This is amazing. Everything was safe when I was a kid, and that's what they're trying to do. And they don't realize, like she's tweeting crazy shit about someone looking like they're from Planet of the Apes, which, by the way, she said she didn't even know that that woman was black. And she's just telling this to me on the phone. She goes, she goes, I'm not stupid.

[00:26:22]

Do you think I would say that about a black bear? Was I thought she was Jewish. She was look at her. She looks like my relatives.

[00:26:28]

It's what she said to me on the phone. I believe her. You make jokes for a living. They make lots of jokes for a living. How are you going to survive in this environment? Making jokes for a living?

[00:26:38]

Just piss people off. I mean, there's you're going to always have people you have more people upset with you and there's more righteous indignation, I think, than I've ever seen in comedy. I've had more people furious at me for what are clearly jokes than ever at any other time in my career.

[00:26:54]

And this is the hardest thing, because you make it something that's clearly a joke. And then somebody writes down the transcript of the joke. And I have to explain the joke. Right. That immediately kills it because as soon as you explain a joke, it's no longer a joke. So if you make a joke, that's politically incorrect and then they write it down and everybody who heard you at the time knows that you were making a joke. If they write it down, then you have to explain it automatically exited the realm of jokes.

[00:27:14]

And so now you're trying to explain the statement as as as true or decent. And that's not the point of the joke in the first place. Yes, exactly. And you look you miss the context. You miss the the way it was delivered. You miss the tone. You miss everything. But what they're doing is they're just trying to find targets. And I think that's one of the things that's happening with Roseanne. That's one of the things that's happening.

[00:27:36]

Whenever anybody screws up in the media, you you just get these people that they want a target. It's a game. And the game is take someone down. The game is call someone out, take someone down. Shame them. Get get the Twitter mob and the Facebook mob. Get them after them. Let's go. Let's move. Let's start a hashtag. Let's attack Morgan Freeman. I heard he told a joke. This is like I mean, did you read the woman's account on CNN with camera interview with Morgan Freeman?

[00:28:08]

I think we covered it, but I can't remember if he was playing God in a movie. He's played God in a movie. And she asked him, if you had magic power, what would you do with it? And he said you wouldn't have a stitch of clothes on. That was the joke. That was it. And and she was like, God, you messed with the wrong girls. And I'm number seventeen at all. These girls that have come out, it's like, wow, you know, like he was on the spot is being interviewed.

[00:28:31]

He's on a red carpet. He tries to crack a joke about you being naked. Like, is this really the worst thing that's ever happened to you? Is this really this or is it just a joke? And when I'm looking at it, even in text, I find it to be silly.

[00:28:45]

But just a joke is dying.

[00:28:46]

Obviously, just a joke is still just a joke. It's just a joke.

[00:28:50]

Well, I think there is that backlash happening. It's one of the reasons why you've become incredibly popular because you just don't care, right? I mean.

[00:28:56]

Well, that's I feel like. If you have your money and you don't save you, then who's going to know who's going to like I'm a good person, I'm a nice guy, I pay my taxes. I have a bunch of great friends and loved ones, have kids, I have kids. I try to be nice to people. That's what I try to do. But if I see something that's ridiculous and I make fun of it and people get mad at me for that, that's on you.

[00:29:28]

From Episode eight, one of our first guest was my friend Adam Carolla. Adam got his start on a sketch comedy series called The Man Show, which he cohosted with Jimmy Kimmel, who was later succeeded by none other than Joe Rogan for a season. Now, Adam is the host of The Adam Carolla Show, the number one daily downloaded podcast in the world, and the author of the new book, I'm Your Emotional Support Animal Navigating our OK, No Joke Culture all today anywhere you purchase books.

[00:29:50]

Since being on the Sunday special, he also partnered up with our friend Dennis Prager on the documentary No Safe Spaces, where they travel the country and expose what is happening to free speech in America today, particularly on college campuses. Adam is just a delight. One of the wonderful things about Adam is that Adam is not, I would say, supremely conservative. He just has values that say that basically everybody should leave each other alone. And as a comedian, I feel like that should be your central value.

[00:30:14]

Leave each other alone and make jokes about anybody. The fact that Adam has become controversial for those very non-controversial opinions shows how crazy things have gone. Listen to Adam and me discuss the power of not apologizing for a joke, how you can beat the OK mob and the dishonest argument we're seeing in culture. And if you don't share somebody's political viewpoint, you have some sort of deep, dark character flaw. There's always this fear that you're going to say the one thing and then the one thing will get you fired and it will finish your career.

[00:30:45]

And for you it's a lot harder because you're in comedy. And now I mean, I was going to ask you this from the beginning. How do you do comedy in an era of political correctness? Because it seems like everybody is getting slaughtered right now. Every comedian gets to a certain point. And then the night of the long knives just come out. If you make the wrong jokes, jokes, unless you are properly WOAK or you're Amy Schumer and you're just going to make a bunch of feminist jokes or so they can say whatever you want.

[00:31:07]

But if you're anybody else, I mean, you're white dude who's relatively conservative on politics or at least is perceived that way, and that means the knives come out. So how do you how do you deal with that? You know, it's kind of interesting, but I do feel like they. Do as much as they think they can get some meaning, I've had plenty of that in my my career, I think if the attitude is. I don't apologize.

[00:31:39]

I don't care. Attacking me is not going to be satisfying for you. There needs to be every. I was just talking about this on my five gas, which is I used to fight in the street a fair bit, not a lot, but like I've had definitely had some street fights and I knew how to fight. And I was just like, I don't know, twenty two and I'd like I would fight and I always knew. I wasn't a mean person and I would not pick a fight with anybody, but I knew if somebody wanted to fight, I knew exactly how to get them out into the street with me to fight like we want to leave this party and we will go fight.

[00:32:22]

I would tell them. I don't want to fight, I, I don't want I don't want trouble, like, I really don't want trouble. And their answer would be, oh, you found trouble. Yeah, but I'm really I'm kind of a mellow guy. And and I just I'm sorry if I stepped on your foot or something in the kitchen, but I don't know, they'd be like, yeah, well, there's a bad day for you.

[00:32:44]

And I'd go, OK, well, I guess we got a fight and we go fight. And I beat them up. But but all I had to do was take a step or two backwards and they took too big step forward. If you step forward, they don't step forward. They realize it's no, it's it's it's no fun going after Adam Corolla. It's much better getting this guy fired or that guy fired this guy. The people issue the long winded sort of crafted by their publicists apologies.

[00:33:14]

And it's like it's so much better. And really all you do is you just kind of tell the to shove off a couple of times and they just kind of go like, all right, he's no good, like no good because he doesn't issue these long winded apologies. So there's like that. And I'm also just at a certain point, you will be who you are like, no, Howard Stern can say whatever he wants when he wants, and no one ever demands that Howard Stern apologize because Howard Stern is Howard Stern or it's my Snoop Dog can smoke weed wherever you want.

[00:33:49]

So if I went to like an AIDS hospice, I couldn't spark up. Snoop Dogg could fire up a hooker pipe in the middle of an AIDS hospice, and they'd be like, that's enough. That's fine. He's Snoop Dogg, you know what I mean? Like, he literally can smoke pot wherever he wants because he's Snoop Dogg. So once you establish yourself as I'm the person who says things that offend people, they sort of leave you alone. It's also weird world where you can't speak logically to people like I've had a million.

[00:34:21]

I like some of the stuff I get thrown back in my face is like, look, if something happens to me, my wife, I'd like a mom and a dad, a male to female to raise my kids because we both offer very different things. But that being said, I will take the lesbian couple or the gay couple who's doing a little better, who has a better minivan that's a little newer and a little safer, who lives in a better part of town with a better school system?

[00:34:48]

I will take them over the heterosexual couple if they're marginally better. If everything is exactly the same as this weird world we live in, it's like everything's the same. I'll give them the male, the female, because traditionally I figure it out through nature that worked a little better. And everyone's like, Oh, so you don't think a gay couple should be able to raise like now that's not what I said. And then they do this one, which is always insane.

[00:35:15]

And I, I don't I wonder this out loud all the time. And I'm going to pose this question to you because I believe I have to be intellectually honest. One of the biggest problems I got into is when somebody said to me, who's funny or men or women, I didn't think I was allowed to say they're both exactly the same. I had to answer the question. I said men are funnier because they're trying to get laid. But so of all, I think about all that, all we've put into getting laid.

[00:35:46]

But also I said that being said, I know plenty of women that are funnier and every guy went to high school with. But if you're just going to ask me, I'll go. I'll go with that. And I got a ton of crap for that. But here's what I. I don't get every time I say to somebody. All things being equal, I take the heterosexual couple now, the gay couples doing a little better and their tax returns and lives in a safe neighborhood.

[00:36:11]

I'll take the gay couple and then they go. All right. So you're saying. The heterosexual couple could be strung out on math and they could the woman, she's a full time prostitute, he's pimping her out, they're cooking up, they're making meth in their bathtub of their apartment, which, by the way, is in a very dangerous part of town. And the gay couple, that's David Geffen and he's out on the stand for pay you would take.

[00:36:40]

And I said, no. I think I was insanely clear. I said, all things are the same, all things are the same. I would take this. But if the other couple then they go, well, that's a flawed premise because you can't make everything the same. And I'm like, make them have the same job and still live in the same neighborhood. Some may think one guy likes Jeopardy, the other Desperate Housewives or something, but just make everything the same.

[00:37:09]

But you now like are these people stupid? Like what? When they say to me, so you would take this couple that raises maybe infested raccoons in their camper and their double wide over David Gava like. No, but why did you say that? Why would you say, like, are they insane? Are they intellectually dishonest? Are they lying? I can't. And what they expect me to go, oh, you caught me. Like I said, everything should be the same.

[00:37:42]

I do think that they're looking for a a world in which they need an answer. And the answer is always going to be that it's their political viewpoint or you have a character flaw. And so if you do not repeat their political viewpoint, then it must be that you have a character flaw. And that character flaw means that secretly, even though you've already said this stuff secretly, you do believe that the rabies infested double wide with the heterosexual couple is better than David Geffen, because your secret motivation is that you like gay people worse than you like straight people, like straight people, more like gay people.

[00:38:12]

And so even if you say all things being equal deep down in your heart, you know, secretly what this is really coming from is animus for gay people. I think I think that's really what it is. I think because having spoken with more people on the left than anybody that I know in my lifetime, it's it's it seems to me that when people are being intellectually dishonest that way and you see it with Cathy Newman and Jordan Peterson, for example, or Jordan Peterson is talking about earnings and Cathy Newman is suddenly just recasting everything that he's saying.

[00:38:37]

Right. She knows what he's saying. It's just that she doesn't believe that that's really his motivation in saying it. It's them attempting to read your heart, I think. Right. And so if you're comfortable, it goes back to what you were saying earlier. If you're comfortable in who you are, it's hard for them to come back at you because they want to say that you're homophobic or you're racist or something. You say, well, I'm not that.

[00:38:54]

And they won't have any place to go from there for them. That's the only place that they can go.

[00:39:00]

Dennis Miller has been in the entertainment business for almost four decades. He spent six of those years as Saturday Night Live weekend update correspondent before exiting in 1991. Vulture dotcom, in fact, rated Dennis as the best weekend update anchor of all time. It's the only thing Vulture's done right. And Comedy Central rated him twenty one in the list of greatest stand up comedians of all time. He's a five time Emmy Award winner for his live talk show, Dennis Miller Live, which had a nine year run on HBO and an eight year run with his nationally syndicated talk radio program.

[00:39:27]

And he hosted NBC's Dennis Miller, a topical interview talk show as well about Dennis when I was much younger. There's tape of us and I'm like twenty one. He's written for New York Times best sellers. He's now the host of the Dennis Miller Option, a podcast where he has on his famous friends and gets uncensored, takes on current events. So we love having Dennis Miller on the radio show. We have him on all the time. I may be the only person in America who actually understands what Dennis is talking about.

[00:39:49]

And I will say that I get a perverse kick out of trying to make Dennis laugh on the show by also making extraordinarily arcane references. He's got me beat on that front. Nearly every time Dennis joined us in Episode Forty seven, we discussed how comedy should always be first and foremost about getting the laugh. Now, that isn't what we've been seeing. How the late night show hosts stack up and Dennis shares the story of when he left the hardest he ever has in his entire life.

[00:40:17]

I look at AOC in the same way that I look at some of the comedians that I see working today, and that is enthusiasm over skill. Do you get that impression also that there's a real draw toward the enthusiastic and the authentic as opposed to the craft, like actually working through things? Well, the craft, I think is listen, there's some guys are beautiful technicians and they literally would do syllable counts and peel it back. But something the main directive, obviously, the companies always been getting laughs.

[00:40:48]

Now you can go out and do it in a myriad of ways. They're physical comedians. They're, you know, intellectual comedians. You see some guys and you think, wow, that's smart. But for the most part, it's all about the prime directive of getting laughs. I've noticed the change is more tectonic in that it's turned everybody's comedy act almost into an impersonator act like impressionists used to do that they would have Jack Nicholson was working at the Burger King and I was always bridel I have that.

[00:41:18]

I lacked that gene or I could go with that where I'd say Time Out is one of the highest paid act.

[00:41:23]

Why is he working at a fast food there? But they do it and then at the end people applaud. And that's sort of what humor is now. Like, people will make a bold statement and get applause instead of big laughs. That's weird to me. It's sort of short circuited the primal thing, that it's an involuntary gesture where somebody says something funny and you don't have to intellectualize it. You just find yourself. And that's the cool part of it.

[00:41:50]

Now it's people going, hmm. And so that's a big change for comedy.

[00:41:55]

The term that I've heard used about this is Klapper, that people are not actually laughing anymore. They're just they're clapping. And this is the Hannegan version of comedy where you have think pieces now about why for thousands of years we've actually been getting the entire concept of comedy wrong. It's not that we're supposed to laugh at things. It's supposed to. If we laugh at things that's actually bad. We're supposed to think about things and then the thinking is the humor.

[00:42:16]

It seems to me that we are shifting the entire nature of humanity around what a bunch of very politically driven people want it to be. Because, I mean, I'm old enough to remember when Jay Leno was on television and trying to be funny and now you've got people on TV in late night who I don't even know if they're trying to be funny anymore. I mean, legitimately, I think that Fallon, maybe the only late night host, is even making an occasional attempt to be funny.

[00:42:37]

I don't know what your opinion is of the of the great entertainer, and I like that about him. I I think that you have to understand, if you want to, at some point, you would lose those jobs. If you look look how good Jimmy is. Jimmy Fallon, I've been on Jimmy Kimmel. He was nice to me, so I don't have an axe to grind there. I disagree with him on many things, but he's also adroit at it and in his own way.

[00:43:03]

But Jimmy's the entertainer to me. Look how much trouble he got in for a simple hair fluff with Donald Trump. It's almost over for him at that point, really. He's had the rally and there is an individual's choice at some point to keep a great job. Unless you can say you should make your statement, you should speak your mind if you're a forty five year old. Jimmy Fallon, this seems like a delightful guy. The times I've met him over the years, it makes me laugh offstage.

[00:43:31]

Deadly funny. He's got the catbird seat. He hosts what Johnny Carson is. They didn't make him leave from New York. He loves New York. He's probably knocking off thirty to forty million dollars a year all in. And they say to you, well, listen, no more pro Trump stuff or we're going to this is they won't even state it, but it's the old mob hit movies where they compartmentalize. They'll have to deal with you with extreme prejudice.

[00:43:56]

You would eventually not have that gig.

[00:43:59]

It's just the truth. You couldn't go out. Jimmy could not go out there now and espouse anything on that side. I think at that point it's with Dion Sanders. Whenever he does NFL football, somebody won't, like, stretch out for a pass, don't like short arguments. They don't get lit up. And Dion Sanders, a business decision.

[00:44:19]

And that's the first thing of at some point you have to understand the hierarchy would whack you if you went out every night and did a pro Trump.

[00:44:29]

And this is where I feel like, contrary to your own perception of yourself, I think that there probably is a growing market for somebody like you actually saying things that are both funny and somewhat conservative, simply because if you look at Jimmy Kimmel, Jimmy, like I remember when he used to do the sports thing on Kevin and being on one of the six point seven out here and was a funny guy when he was doing his show with Adam Carolla on Comedy Central.

[00:44:51]

And the humor came first and now he's the pope of late night. Right. He gets up there and he's going to rail about Obamacare and cry on TV about Obamacare. And I just think to myself, well, isn't like where's the other side of this equation where every funny comedian seems to be being read out? And if you're moderate, that's not enough. You have to at least make overtures toward being politically woak if you're going to survive in this way.

[00:45:14]

Even guys I like like I think John Mulaney is really funny, I think. Melanie, he will have to at some point in his show, just dump on a certain portion of the country so that he can get his world cred in order, so that he can go about doing his normal business. But I mean, isn't that leaving half to check the box for cloaking mechanism?

[00:45:31]

If he doesn't have anything else in his act, will be shot through the prism of is he not woken up? So, yeah, is it easier to screw it throughout? So you look OK for an hour and you're doing some Tepfer jokes, or is it better just in the middle, like a sorbet you cleanse your palate with just come out with a big picture, trump with horns on a try and you know, you can work both ends of that.

[00:45:55]

But in the middle, you've laid it.

[00:45:57]

It's it's odd to me how it's demanded that you establish that I won't do that. I think the hardest I've ever left, I have a good memory, I can say always work for me because but I loved him and he made me laugh. The single hardest I've ever seen was Sam Kennison. I don't know if you're familiar with Sam, but it was just so wrong. Like sometimes he'd be so wrong that you'd sit there. And this is what we talk about with political correctness.

[00:46:25]

Now, we've we've like organized a huge bit of what makes you laugh.

[00:46:30]

Sometimes wrong or unfair or mean is what makes you laugh the hardest. I remember Sam convulsively. One night there was a group of people in from Decatur, Illinois or something or in the Comedy Store. It's like 2:00 in the morning. They're the he's the last guy. Sam comes out. He hasn't broken big yet. He's getting big, though, but he comes out. He's like some pissed off golomb. He's got the beret on and the coat and they don't quite know what to make of and where he is from.

[00:46:57]

And he starts talking to them and they think he's nice or something. They have no idea they're dealing with the Antichrist.

[00:47:07]

This is what you do.

[00:47:08]

And the guy describes it and Sam says, yeah, sounds good. Hey, listen, around three o'clock after hearing that story around three o'clock tomorrow afternoon, I'm going to be doing some yard work. And if there's anybody else in the crowd who wants to drive by and put a bullet in me because I'm dead, I'm dead.

[00:47:31]

And the people were like it was like the beginning of the massacre, something where the eyes are covered up.

[00:47:36]

And that's looking back at that. That's the hardest I have ever left I've ever seen. This is I was the comedian named Jeff Caesarea. Now, I look back on that. I don't have any choice in that. I look back on it. Is it like great moments in comedy? No, it's not exactly deft, but it was just so wrong. And the the equilibrium was so thrown off. Maybe it was nervousness, but it just made me laugh my ass off.

[00:48:00]

And I often think now all that's that Sam would be out of the business that I so would Rickles. I mean, I think Rickles might get through because he was a softy. He had a good heart, but Sam was just playing. Sam had a good heart. But he is more malevolent. I don't think either of those guys could work down. That's a weird place to be.

[00:48:18]

That's how I was going to ask you next is about the modern standards. You know, it seems to me that we've actually returned to a sort of puritanism about Koni, where the only jokes that you're allowed to make are basically sex jokes. All the other jokes are out the window because they rely on stereotypes or they rely on observations about reality that could be offensive to somebody. Sex is inherently funny. So you can make sex joke and get away with it.

[00:48:40]

Or you can just shock somebody by cursing or saying something incredibly lewd or vulgar. But it seems like that's it's either that or or, you know, probing social commentary, meaning just left a social commentary you could watch on Maddow. So is there a future for comedy in this in this world? You know, there always is, but I can't foresee it. You know what I mean? Something's going to happen in this country that's going to uncap this pressure.

[00:49:04]

And what was the guy's name? Ray Donovan. Where do I go to get my reputation back? Or I think there was a guy named Walsh who one time said, have you no shame? You know, Hollywoods running the tightest Hakamada type thing. Now, it's it's not McCarthyism. And it's like Jenny McCarthy ism. You can be you can be kicked out in a second for saying something wrong, supposedly by the cool kids. That that makes me I never saw it.

[00:49:30]

I never thought I'd see that coming. And now I can't say how I see it going, but I do think there'll be some moment where something is overplayed. Somebody has harangued. It might almost happen with Monica Lewinsky, but she saved that dress. I mean, when you look back on that, people always say that's such an odd thing. I mean, thank God they would have driven that young girl, I think, into a nervous breakdown.

[00:49:54]

You know, something's going to happen. It's going to make us all step back and go, oh, that's that's heavy, you know, and that's weird. And we've got to start. But I can't foresee what that is. But it's going to be it's not going to be a minor thing. Some some things are going to come out of this perpetually uptight attitude. It's going to make everybody shake their head and think, oh, we've gone too far.

[00:50:14]

Greg Gutfeld is The New York Times best selling author, libertarian, political satirist and humorist. He's the host of The Greg Gutfeld Show and co-host of The Five and hosted the legendary cult TV phenomenon Red-Eye on Fox News. Prior to joining Fox, Gregg was editor for several magazines and was one of the first contributors to the Huffington Post writing sarcastic pieces, poking fun at anything and everything, which is what eventually got him on Fox News. He tells me about how it all went down in the full episode.

[00:50:38]

You should check out that story. Greg is absolutely hilarious, shockingly self-effacing. And he and I go a long way back because, of course, he really got his start. Thanks to Andrew Breitbart from episode fifteen. Listen to Greg and me discuss how social media is bleeding into real life and making the culture worse, how we have cultivated the individual mind into a mob. And Greg's thoughts on if the culture can make for crosswell discussions in the country.

[00:51:08]

I mean, I do think that we have to set up a feeling on the left that if they continue this, that there will be consequences. But by the same token, it's hard to balance that with, you know, let's not destroy people just because we can. And and the fact is that we now live in this. You're exactly right. I mean, I remember it was probably three weeks ago now where that actor, director Mark Duplass, just tweeted out something nice about me and suddenly he was deleting it and apologizing his mouth.

[00:51:31]

And then James Gunn jumped in and then he I destroyed half the MCU by literally sitting here doing nothing. Right. I was just sitting here doing nothing. And suddenly James Gunn loses his job.

[00:51:38]

And I thought to myself, like, if this stuff doesn't stop, then like the Internet is bleeding into real life. The social media are bleeding into regular life. I used to think and it's a depressing thought when you spend your life in politics and doing political commentary, trying to inform people. I used to think that the future of the country lay in the informed 40 percent that there are 40 percent of the American public. We're into politics and very informed and following the news.

[00:52:01]

I'm starting to think that might be the opposite, that maybe the future of the country lies in the 60 percent that absolutely watches nothing that any of us do. And all they do is go to baseball games. They watch all TV at night and immediately spend time doing other things. I really hope that's the case. Yeah, I hope so, too, because if not know. But it is this this this new kind of like if you like, if you have a bad day, your life could be over.

[00:52:26]

So let's say you get in an argument at Walmart, somebody films that. Yep, you could have like I said this a couple of weeks ago on the five, that if my if this social media stuff was around my parents, my mom would have been a meme. She would spank me if I was acting up in public. But if somebody catches that, you're gone. Everything's big. It's a nation of narks. We're all catching roguelike. I got him.

[00:52:48]

I'm going to put that up there. And it's just like I remember. This is Paula Deen right there, like you said, something racist. Like she said, what are you, the N-word in the 70s? Yeah, it's OK. Now, let's destroy her entire business now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because of a racist thing she said in nineteen seventy three.

[00:53:01]

Yeah. And then they just disappear like people are there then she's vanished. Yeah. There's a few other people too that you just go where do they go. Is there an island where you can be. And also can people come back. Right is can Louis C.K. come back. I don't think he should by the way. I think Louis, like I'm one of these people. I think Louis C.K. should come back. He didn't like what he did was bad.

[00:53:22]

But it's not like the guy was trying to portray an image of himself, like he's a priest about this stuff. Right. He talked about this stuff. Yeah. And, you know, once he's done his time and done his repentance, it seems to me that he should be able to like he can actually rape anybody. Yeah, he did some really bad stuff. Yeah. But that's not rape. And I think that we also have no gradations.

[00:53:40]

Right. Even for me saying that he did bad stuff, but it's not rape. I'll get destroyed for that because all of these things are rape. Everything is equivalent to the worse.

[00:53:47]

Even when you ask for a spectrum, people will see that as dismissive, dismissive. It's like I just want to like because they say, no, there's no there's no respect.

[00:53:56]

That is bad. That is bad. Unless it's like an Asian person saying bad things about white people, then of course, not bad at all. And once you divide it into this dichotomy of good versus bad, as opposed to here's a spectrum of bad, right. There's like anti black racism, which has historical connotations that are really bad and it's bad racism and then slightly less bad racism. But still, racism is Asian people saying that all white people should die.

[00:54:16]

Like that's still pretty bad, but it's not like quite on the level of like the KKK that as soon as you say that sort of stuff, people lose their mind. Yes, everything has to be equal to everything else. It's interesting. I was reading a book over the weekend about Rwanda, really light reading over the over the summer and about the Rwandan genocide. And one of the things that struck me is when you're talking about the Rwandan genocide, basically the government said your neighbors are now your enemies go murder your neighbors.

[00:54:40]

And the the in three months. Eight hundred thousand people. Yes, right. And and it occurs to you like the development of the individual mind, the idea that you are an individual and not just a member of a collective body that is designed to go hit this other collective body that's actually relatively rare in human history.

[00:54:57]

And it only exists in certain places at certain times. And it feels like we're now in reverse cultivation. Like we spent we spent literally millennia trying to get to the point where we thought of ourselves as individuals with independent thoughts and motives and who could stand up to the mob. And when I look at the world now, I think that we have this weird idea that all bad people then the Nazis were basically monsters who are not actual human beings, who are just bad, who did bad things.

[00:55:21]

They're Nazi. They weren't human beings who did monstrous things. They were monsters who weren't human in any way. Right. And so when we look at that's a very self flattering point of view, like we're all good people. We would never do anything like that. I don't I don't buy that at all. I think that pretty much everybody is capable of doing something says that. I mean, it's like that this is like what is it that like?

[00:55:38]

And there's a dude. Do you ever read any Rene Girard? Does that ring a bell? Yeah, that's the whole idea of just like imitation. And I think social media I've been reading that and I've been thinking about the why is it getting worse is because social media is enabling the behavior, being able to imitate each other, and that's creating more of a mob rule like it's disseminating these means in this in these feelings so we can all just join in and swarm.

[00:56:08]

And if I don't like Ben Shapiro, I can get a hundred thousand people or four thousand people who feel like a hundred thousand, I think I think that's why it feels like it's regressive. It's going back because I think social media is making that possible. Maybe maybe it doesn't result in anything bad. Like nobody gets killed. It's not Rwanda. It's a social media. But I notice that social media does destroy careers.

[00:56:33]

And that's like Justin Sacco, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. She got famous. Yeah. She flew to South Africa before making an AIDS joke while AIDS joke, which in which the joke was about like eight AIDS disproportionately affecting black people in Africa or something.

[00:56:50]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't like it was she was making a political point that liberals would have loved anybody and she totally by the time she landed, she was over. Do you think there's any hope that there's going to be any cross aisle discussion any time in the near future? Because it just looks I mean, there's some people, but it just gets uglier and uglier. I know. I don't I don't know. I don't know that the only upset I could think is that maybe we just are moving away from politics, hopefully, like most of America is.

[00:57:18]

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I hope so, too. And I think that one of the things that you did so great is that you bring a lot of culture into into what it is that you do. And that is space where I think that so long as the left doesn't destroy our common cultural space, too. Yeah, I think that we can actually have some space. So where do you what do you want to do over the next few years?

[00:57:34]

I mean, like what's you what's your goal? I know these are your questions, but I actually like doing what I'm doing.

[00:57:38]

I enjoy I enjoy writing every day. That's the thing that I like to do. And I'll probably do as long as Fox will have me. I enjoy I mean, I don't know many people who are doing what I do. I'm the only me at the network. I can't think of anybody. And so I like being unique.

[00:57:55]

And then a lot of funny conservatives, they're coming.

[00:57:58]

There's there's a few, though, that I found on my show that I'm like, really? Like, I had a few last week. And I would say that they're non liberal, like Joe DeVito and Joe Mackie and Chris Freed or these are all young guys. And, you know, it's funny, I don't like even labeling them because I don't want to hurt them right now. I don't even know. We get we get we get noticed. I know a bunch of like major Hollywood folks who listen to the show and I'll legitimately say to them, you cannot let people know that you ever watch any of this stuff.

[00:58:27]

I have a buddy who is super hip in the music world, probably one of the hippest people who is was more excited about the podcast when you did with me. And we'll be excited about this, but I'm not going to say his name. Yeah, I'll tell you after, but I'm not going to say his name because it would just not help him at all. I mean, like, this guy is so hip. He's like, if people found out about it, Pitchfork would be Pitchfork media freak out.

[00:58:53]

Oh, yeah, no question. I mean, the list of people who have actually been to the offices who we will not take pictures of because we'll say to that this was Duplass is a mistake. He came in, I told him, dude, don't let people know that you were here. You did. And you got destroyed. Right. That's that's how bad it is. But, you know, I think that hopefully there will be a rational middle that not in terms of political viewpoint, but just a rational middle where people can actually have these discussions.

[00:59:13]

Again, that will be very helpful.

[00:59:17]

If you've enjoyed hearing from our past guests in this collection, be sure to check out their full episodes and hear more of the conversations, links to those are in the description below. Also, be sure to leave us a comment about who you'd like to see me talk with next season.

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If you like this, don't forget to subscribe and give us a five star review. Were available on Apple podcast, Spotify, YouTube and wherever you listen to podcasts. Also, be sure to check out other daily Wyner podcast, including the Andrew Clavon Show, The Michael Moore Show and The Matt Walsh Show. Thanks for listening. The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday special is produced by Mathes Glover, executive producer Jeremy Boring, associate producer, K.D. Winterton. Our guests are book by Caitlin Maynard.

[00:59:59]

Post production is supervised by Alex Angara. Editing is by Jim Niccolò, audio remixed by Mike Kamina. Hair and Makeup is by Nico Geneva, Hydrographic Graphics by Cynthia and Bülow. The Ben Shapiro Show Sunday Special is a daily wire production copyright Daily 20 20.