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Hey, folks, Ben Shapiro here, don't miss our latest episode of Daily Wire backstage. Join me, Andrew Klavan, Michael Knowles and Jeremy Boring as we cover the top stories in politics and pop culture with enough laughs and insights to get you through these insane news cycles. Take a listen. Welcome to The Daily Wire Strikes Back Stage. I'm Jeremy Boring lowercase G lowercase k God King. Tonight we're going to be talking cancer culture in an effort to answer the age old question.


Just how rich is the left trying to make us with all this bull crap? Today's show is sponsored by Express, BP in big tech track what you do, anonymize your web browsing at Express VPN Dotcom backstage, I'm joined her use by Smokey Mike Knowles, by Matthew Alemu, well, by The Ghost of Andrew Clayton and by the finest Ben Shapiro clone money can buy still cheaper than the original and of course, by the lovely one herself. This is Alicia Krauss here to take your questions Alicia.


Hey, how are you guys doing?


And welcome to the Empire Strikes Back Stage. The Daily Star strikes backstage, although I don't know why you guys want to be relating to the Empire. I thought that we were the good guys and the WOAK mob that tried to cancel Jenah was the empire.


But you're overthinking everything. So I'm just trying to be accurate. God king. Anyway, it has been one of the biggest months in the daily work history and we are so excited. I love The Sun special with Gina and Ben and we're going to tell you guys this is just the beginning, but it still needs to introduce Gina and I so we can be single for many Pettys and then she can teach me how to be a badass so I can beat up Michael Knowles.


But if you are just as excited as I am, then you can be a part of this huge movement by joining us at The Daily Wire. As always, I will be answering your questions tonight throughout the show. And only daily choir members can ask the questions later on throughout the show tonight. And if you're not a member, then you ask, oh, how can I become a member? Well, just head on over to Daly Wired.com slash subscribe and you can get twenty five percent off if you use the code debunked.


That code is very specific because it is also the name of Ben Shapiro's new show Debunked, in which he talks about massive leftist myths that he's going to debunk every single episode. The first episode is this Friday, February twenty six. Be sure to check it out. But after you go to daily Wired.com slash subscribe use code debunked for twenty five percent off because who doesn't love a good sale. I know I do stereotypical. Right. So go to daily wired.com slash subscribe.


Use that code debunked. Ask the questions to the guys later throughout the night. Thanks, fellas. We had an unbelievable last two weeks because the left has decided in their infinite wisdom that making us just insane is their top priority. They've decided that they're going to cancel many, many valuable Hollywood entertainers. And we have decided that we are going to make movies with those people, specifically with Gina Carano. Alysha mentioned the Sunday special been. It really was.


I think it may have been the best Sunday special ever. Gina telling her side of the story was just remarkable. I want to talk about what happened to Gina specifically for the three or four people who live under rocks and didn't pick up on it. But what I really want to talk about is the bifurcation of the culture, the bifurcation of the economy, the the the tragedy and the comedy of the whole thing and the opportunities that it presents. So you might walk in this just briefly through Jena story.


So, I mean, the way the Jena told it and first of all, you should watch The Sun special because it really does allow you to see her side of the story in her own words. And Jena is just a lovely human being, a wonderful, lovely home being. I had her over for Friday night dinners. We actually had Travis together. It was really nice. My kids loved her. And and what happened to Jena basically is that she tweeted a bunch of stuff that Disney didn't like.


None of it was particularly horrifying or controversial. And if I I mean, it really is that simple. It started off when she had tweeted a joke about the pressure that people receive online to put their pronouns in there. In their Twitter profile, she'd put in her Twitter profile, boop, boop, boop, which is actually pretty funny because Droid noises and and Disney called her into a room and they wanted her to have kind of the WOAK mob to resume session with her.


And she didn't really want to do that. I want to actually get in a room and talk with actual human beings. And and they they finally kind of let her do that. And then they would not let her do any press. Basically, from then on, they cut her out of all of the press materials for the Mandalorian, even though she's one of the biggest stars in the show. And then you fast forward and post-election she started tweeting things that are fairly well accepted in conservative circles, like if you want to crack down on voter fraud, perhaps there should be voter I.D. She tweeted that like two days after the election and people were like, oh, this means that she is in favor of lies about you.


No, that's that's not what she tweeted. And then a few days later, she tweeted something about how Americans should remove the mask from their eyes. They can see what's actually going on. With regard to covid, again, this is a fairly mainstream conservative position, even for people like me. Plus, it doesn't even protect you from the virus. It's on your eyes, on your own. Yeah. In any case, that was that was really not particularly controversial.


And then she tweeted out this this meme that was just a picture, very famous picture from the Holocaust of a Jewish woman running away from German soldiers. And the text next to it was fairly generic, it just said. These sorts of evils don't happen in a vacuum, they start off with people dehumanizing other human beings, and if you treat people horribly, then eventually you could end up at this place. And so you should remember this when you treat people horribly because of their politics, which is a fairly reasonable generic statement.


Now, I'm not a huge fan of Holocaust comparisons because I generally feel that most of them are overwrought. But there is nothing remotely anti-Semitic about this one. And then and in the world of Holocaust comparisons, this one ranks like the lowest 10 percent in terms of controversial because that's a pretty generic statement about dehumanization of other people. In fact, I've seen the Auschwitz Memorial Museum put out very similar tweets, actually, about the generic nature of dehumanizing other people and how that leads to problems down the road, including death for people.


And so this turned into a big hullabaloo with Disney and Lucasfilm deciding that it was time for Jena to be ousted, apparently had been in the works for a couple of months. They had been meaning to announce her as a spinoff star from the Mandalorian in one of their own series. They'd canceled that in December and they were looking for an excuse to counter these. This is the excuse to counter, despite the fact that Patro Pa., the actual star of the Mandalorian, had tweeted out a meme comparing outfits to kids being held in cages in twenty eighteen using a picture that was from the Palestinian Authority in 2014.


And it was, of course, no blowback to that. So basically, after they canceled and she found out about this essentially via social media, the way we did and what we did, we found out about the exact same time the Jena did. Then you give her the courtesy of a call. They just said, you're not coming back. That's it in social media. And and we saw this here, a daily wire. And we reached out I reached out to her personally and I said, listen, this is it's really tragic what's happening to you, because it's not about the money.


It's about the dream. If if you ever go to Hollywood and you work with folks in Hollywood and pretty much all of us except for Matt have actually I've actually done this people who move out to Hollywood move out there because their dream is to be in a show like the Mandalorian. I mean, it's the biggest show in TV right now. And to have a starring role in that and to take that away from somebody summarily and to destroy their career in the process, because they released a statement saying essentially she was an anti-Semite and that she was racist.


And all the stuff they categorized people on the basis of religion and ethnicity.


I mean, it's just a lie, just not true. And they and and for them to do that was an act of cruelty as an act of true cruelty. So we called her up and and I said to her, you know, it's terrible what's happening to you, but it's a real opportunity to punch back at these bastards and we should punch back at them because nobody has ever said to them, you know what, fine, you want to cancel me.


I'm not canceled because there's a whole side of the political aisle that doesn't agree that I should be canceled. And so, you know what? I'm just going to go do my own thing over here. And so that's when we announced good for her because it was an act of bravery on her part for us is an opportunity. Right for us. I mean, I'll be to be honest with you, whenever somebody in mainstream in mainstream culture has canceled, I put in a call.


So I probably put in over the course of the last four or five years, at least 50 calls to various mainstream figures who have been canceled for bad reasons. And it's it's something that I just do on whether liberal or conservative. There are many people on the left I've done this for and Gina was just another person who was like that. But Gina really took up the opportunity and said, OK, let's do this now. There's an opportunity. I've been wanting to do this anyway.


I don't deserve to be canceled and Americans need to be able to stand up for themselves. So I'm happy to come over here and I'm happy to make a movie with you guys. And we could not be more pumped up about our audience. Certainly couldn't be more pumped up. That's the biggest week in the history of the Daily Wire. I think people missed that. Gina Cronos, a real human. Sometimes you read these stories about us or about political figures or about entertainment figures, and we're two dimensional.


And that makes sense because we come to you on a screen which which makes us two dimensional also because we have no souls.


Yeah, I personally am, too. But Gina is an actual human. They took they took her career away from her. Her agent dropped her her her attorney dropped her. Her publicist dropped her like they took all the tools necessary to have a career away from her. They took the biggest show away from her. They took her ability to pay her bills away from her. They took her good name away from her. Lucasfilm called her. And so that she categorized people on the basis of religion and ethnicity, which she did not do fundaments.


It's defamation because it is one hundred percent untrue. That's not even a possible interpretation of the things that she has said. The fact that we were even able to get her on the phone in that situation, I think is fairly remarkable. She was having what must be one of the worst days that a person can possibly endure when their career and their good name have sort of having a serious health problem.


That's about as bad as it gets right there. But, you know, the terrific thing about it and the reason I'm so glad you guys acted, I really I hate to compliment you because you know who you are. But still, I really am happy you acted as because we all support free speech. And that means when they take an Alex Jones off the air, I'm offended. I think Alex Jones should have a platform. I think he's he's a loon, but he should have a platform because who cares?


You know, we can defeat it. We can defeat his clan. They're making the frogs with the truth.


They are making a few. But but the thing is, we're defending a guy that we don't agree with that we think is out of his mind. Here's a case where this woman did literally zero percent wrong. He she heard her tweet and I'm with you. I don't like Holocaust comparisons because they're over the top.


But she didn't really even do. That she was making a perfectly valid point, that you begin by dehumanizing people and you end by hurting them, and that's what is happening in our society. So perfectly valid point. We're defending somebody who is actually wrong. And that is a terrific position to be in because the left has been very clever and they go after the people on the other.


They proved her point, too, because they they it's not that they're going to cut her off to a concentration camp, but they dehumanized her by by labeling her an anti-Semite, by lying about her saying or saying that she was was categorizing people based on race and ethnicity. That's just flatly wrong. They know that they're lying, but they figure, well, she deserves to be lied about and to be slandered because she's wrong about all these other things. What was it?


There are two aspects of this that I want to talk about. I actually want to talk about Holocaust comparisons generally, and I want to talk about what it means that they canceled someone on the basis of nothing at first. I'm going to talk to you about our friends over at Express EPN. I mean, there's just one question. Why haven't you gotten a VPN yet? Ladies and gentlemen, I'll tell you, there's never been a more important time to protect your digital rights.


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It's not a good idea when there are so many bad actors around the world trying to take advantage of your personal information, take back your privacy and express VPN dotcom backstage and you'll get three excrements for free on a one year package. When you use Express VPN dotcom and throw in that backstage, that's how you get those three extra months or absolutely. For a VPN dotcom backstage head over there right now, Michael. Yes, they canceled her for nothing.


Yeah. Why did they cancel her?


They canceled her because it's very wrong to make any comparison to the Holocaust, especially after we just had literally Hitler be president for four years. So you're not you can't do that sort of thing.


You know, this is what is most chilling to me. We all support the American free speech tradition in this room. The left does not. We all support it, but we all think there are. There are some things that if you if you walk up to the water cooler and you say zig heel or you do something, I think you should lose your job. I don't think you should be allowed to keep your movie or whatever. I think there are some things that are out of bounds.


There are always things that are out of bounds, what this woman did was make an absolutely mainstream opinion that we all everybody left, right and center would have agreed on even five or six years ago.


But now they have so moved the goalposts in this country that if you if you have an American flag outside your house, you could be.


I'm actually not sure that this is right. I think that she was canceled for nothing because it was nothing. I think that we're living through a change in what Hansell culture is and what the WOAK mob wants, that it's no longer about enforcing their rules. I think that it's like the great terror. I think that's just the imposition. Yes. Yeah. I think that the arbitrariness of it I think the randomness of it is actually part of the terror that they can take down Jenah for nothing and they can take down you for.


Well, you see this happening. I mean, the rules are changing every single day, right? I mean, they're changing every single day. And things that are overtly nonracist are now being treated as racist. I mean, you have Don McNeil losing his job at The New York Times for using the N-word to describe why using the N-word is wrong and in which situations using the N-word is wrong. See the guy over at Slate, Mike Pesca. Right.


We're not big fans of Slate over here. Slate fired a guy for saying that maybe we should have a discussion about when use of the N-word is appropriate in like, for example, quoting someone who used the N-word and they will and people at Slate were like, nope, can't have that. They laid Mike Pesca off. I think the most ridiculous example of somebody being canceled for non racism that I've seen in the recent past is not really even Jena, although that was ridiculous.


I think that it's what's going on with Chris Harrison over at The Bachelor. I'm not I'm not a fan of The Bachelor because I am a man and testosterone that runs in my body. But there this is one of the cultural institutions of the United States over the last twenty five years. Right. I mean, it's been going since two thousand two. It has been The Bachelor has been on the air for a majority of my lifetime on this planet.


It's been on forever and. Right. And the and the bachelor basically just collapsed over the course of the last month because there's a the first black bachelor and he was dating one of the women. There was a woman named Rachel Kirkconnell when she committed the heinous sin of in twenty eighteen going to a party at a plantation that was dubbed a plantation party or something. And she wore like a Scarlett O'Hara dress antebellum antebellum party. And the idea was that this was racist because you can't have an antebellum party without acknowledging the sins of slavery, which again, I just hate to note this, unless the governor was right.


And then you can dress up as whatever you want. But I hate to note this for everybody, but if you wear a costume from virtually any historic period prior to 18, 20, that culture had slavery and. Right. I mean, like if you dress up as a Viking and there was there was slavery back then, if you dress up as a Roman, there's lots of slavery back then. In any case, the the idea was that she was a racist for having gone to this party in twenty eighteen.


So the bachelor who spoiler alert for women who are still watching The Bachelor, but it's out of the bag now. He ended up picking this woman. Right. Rachel Kirkconnell is the woman he ended up picking at the end of The Bachelor. And so he put out a statement on February 3rd in which he said, you know, she should be given a little bit of great social media, shouldn't be going after her.


They shouldn't be digging up her parents voting record, like give her a give her a break. And so Chris Harrison, the host, was on a show with Rachel Lindsey, a former host of The Issues, the former bachelorette first black bachelorette, I think, and she was interviewing him. And Chris Harrison said you should give her a little bit of grace. Social media should be judge, jury and executioner. People should be treated with a little bit of grace.


She can explain herself. And Rachel Lindsey then suggested that Chris Harrison, for saying she deserved Grace, ought to apologize and essentially lose his job. And then a couple of weeks later, like just this week, Matt James, who originally had defended Rachel Kirkconnell and was dating Rachel Kirkconnell, he put out a statement over the last twenty four hours saying that Rachel Kirkconnell was essentially a racist, that Chris Harrison was a racist, but The Bachelor was racist and that it was it was unthinkable that Chris Harrison could have said what he said in front of Rachel, Rachel Lindsey, who then was forced to do and I quote the emotional labor, the emotional labor of explaining to him the history of racism and slavery in this country emotionally.


But first of all, what what is emotional labor? An actual physical labor? I've done it several times.


It's it's much the same. I can't even make this joke. It is so over the top.


I know how mad Ben is going to be at me. But I will say this. The fact that he used the term emotional labor is proof that they got to him. Yeah, that's no human being walks around with the term emotional labor in their frontal lobe except Wolke leftists. And that means that somebody came and sat him down and said, listen, the girl you've been dating and obviously, like, she doesn't matter the show, that's the only reason you have a platform at all.


That doesn't matter. The only thing that matters if you want to keep if you want to keep your house and your career and your good name is that you freakin get out there and walk the line.


That's right. And I mean the utter cowardice of throwing under the bus the girl you were dating. Right. And calling her racist and then saying the guy who said exactly what you said, exactly what you said, like within days, that that guy is a racist. But you you're perfect, right? You're perfect. But that's amazing. Which, by the way, I just have to add the capper to this so that, again, my. Producers who the only reason I know about The Bachelor is because I have two producers, yes, they are female and they inform me of the TV remote.


That's why a savvy and producer, Jessica, I will say that they keep me updated on this stuff on a granular level. And and they made me aware of a post from Rachel Lindsay that happened in the middle of the Black Lives Matter movement in the summer. And this post was a picture of Rachel Lindsay standing. I kid you not in front of a Cadillac sex. And the post was when I am fighting on behalf of Black Lives Matter, the way that I like to learn about black history is through podcasts about black history that I listen to on my Bose sound system in my Cadillac.


Yes, capitalism, number one, always wins. But No. Two like this is the person who is standing up against the racism of the capitalist evil American system. This is the person who's doing emotional labor, emotional labor. You're standing in front of a Cadillac execs and a sponsor the ad on Instagram to preach about Black Lives Matter. And you're the person who's supposed to be the the great pope of Wolken this year.


I mean, it's insanity.


How dare you ask me is what is what a grift it be?


15 years ago, you were discussing in an academic context the use of the N-word and now you're fired. But if you're a black mom who wants her kid to go to school, that can't happen because teachers unions are keeping you out.


You know, if Bill Gates literally put out a system for teaching algebra to black kids where you get rid of the concept of right and wrong, and I like that, that maybe and like I've been around a long time, that's one of the most racist, actually.


And so it's all a grift. You know, it's all nobody's doing anything for anybody but this emotional panic.


And the corporations are white America. It's white America. Well, it is. I mean, this is what Shelby Steele writes about. It's a bunch of white folks get to maintain control over the auspices of power by saying black folks don't have to do the work. It's our job to do the work. Well, you have to give me power and I can fix things. Exactly. And corporate America has bought into this that that that ridiculous anti-racism training.


The Coca-Cola, as I know Coca-Cola. How you talk about this on your show?


Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and that's why we have to stipulate, I think with cancer culture that it is a left wing phenomenon.


This is the I know on the left they always want to accuse the right of, oh, you're doing cancer culture because we criticize someone for having, you know, for their opinion. But you know how people on the left say that only white people can be racist because we have institutional power and black people don't. We don't. That's totally bogus because no one is. Racism is a condition of the heart. Anyone can be racist. Number two, we had a black president.


You know, I consider that to be institutional power. But with with cancer culture, that actually is about institutional power. You can't cancel someone unless you own the institutions. Canceling someone is all about they lose their job. They lose the reputation, they lose their credibility. They lose everything. We on the right, unfortunately, don't have the ability to do that. Only the left can do that. So the left so cancel culture is a left wing thing.


It's what the left does. And I think we need to be clear about that in our definition of it, because that's that's what I think it is.


The of corporate America into WOAK ism is one of the great disturbing elements of the last several decades. It really is amazing because we were all taught that after you leave college, you're going to get in the real world and then the real world to be a meritocracy. And and all of the all of the kind of emotional crap that you learn in college in the microaggression nonsense, all that was going to stop. And turns out those people just took over the institutions and now you get it twice as hard from the corporations.


And the corporations have a real interest in promoting this stuff because No. One, it's a great way to avoid liability, a discrimination liability. You say, oh, you know, we hired Robin D'Angelo for 20 grand to teach all of our people that the racist. So, I mean, how can you sue us for that? And also, all your rogue staffers are the ones who are most likely to sue you. So if you just give in to them, then they won't surprise as anyone sued yet.


I mean, we're waiting for a white, but there ain't a point right now. There's corporations where they actually single out. They say this is only for the white employees. Come to the room and we're going to tell you what a scumbag you are. As any white employee actually stood up and said this is racial harassment.


But look look what happens when you when when Asian students sued Harvard. Right. Wasn't white students suing about the affirmative action policies, it was Asian students who are also disadvantaged. The Asian students. Sue, what happens doesn't go anywhere. The DOJ under Trump looks into Yale for doing exactly the same thing or disadvantaging white and Asian students and applications. What happens? The Biden administration gets rid of it. So if I'm a white employee and I'm being told to be less white and I think I'm pretty swarthy, I'm much less white than I get.


If I'm thinking about suing, I look at the track record of these lawsuits and I say, why would I waste my money back?


And all that struck is true. According to back to the institutional point that Matt was making, institutions are now completely corrupted from the inside by the work. I want to talk about that a little bit more. First, I want to talk about one of the most important things to me, which is me.


When it comes to being me, I like to spend as much time being made as humanly possible. And that means spending as. A little time doing the things that I don't want as is humanly possible, and that's why I use Stamps.com when you're taking trips to post office. You're not busy being you know, you're not doing the things that you want to do, this is not how a God king likes to operate. That's why I recommend mailing and shipping online at Stamps.com.


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That is the first time I've ever heard the term hoi polloi in an advertisement. Well, first of all, I was actually going to stop you. That is the best ad you've ever done. I just as someone who does this professionally, let me just say your skill set has grown me. I mean, like I've heard you do some real bad advice. I'm horrible at a really terrible one. Really bad. That was excellent.


It was a really great Segway in. And then it really made it personal. And he made it about you.


You really took your time. Really excellent.


Like the fact that you were talking about you. That's that's what I'm glow comes over you. I mean, that's really impressive.


There is one note that I want to make as far as the fact that cancelation is a left wing phenomenon and it is because it is connected to institutional power, occasionally you will see sort of a right wing cancelation effort. So, for example, there was some talk about in college removing college scholarships from from kids who wanted the deal for the national anthem or something like I'm not I'm not a big fan of that sort of thing. But there is it's not just that.


It's a left wing phenomenon. It's that is a left wing mindset. There's an actual mindset of cancelation that exists. And there's a study that I was looking at the other day that it's just a truly amazing study. It was quoted in Harvard Business Review. What they did is they they took a panel of people of wide variety of political opinion, went all the way right to left, and then they offered them model corporation is like Jobs Corporation or something.


And what they told them is that they give them three examples. One, Jobs Corporation is apolitical. How do you feel about it? You're like, OK, it seems a nice corporation. Second was jobs, corporations, liberal. How do you feel about it? People like nice corporation. And then they said Jobs Corporation is conservative. It dropped thirty three points in the approval ratings. Thirty three points entirely because the left decided that it was now an evil business.


Yeah. So in other words, people, people assume that corporate America is liberal. They assume it right. That's why the first two results are the same. That's why apolitical and liberal end up with the same result. It also shows you the right does not care. The right is happy to shop wherever there is a good product. The left does care. The left wants their wokingham infused into everything. Well, there is good news for us in this, as you may have noticed, which is that fine, you want to do this, you want to boycott any business that's conservative.


There's half the country that believes they should be able to shop at businesses that are not going to shove this garbage down their throat. And we are happy to start each and every one of those businesses and rake in the dough. That's right, Drew. This is where the left, I think, has lost their mind. Illiberalism is nothing new right there. Always there's always been a streak of illiberalism even on the right. And the left just is now illiberal.


But if you go back to the sixties. You liberals on the right would like burn Beatles albums, and I'm sorry, the Beatles were a band that never got they never got successful because all these illiberal conservatives burned their record.


No one ever know. Of course, that's not how it works. There's a there is going to be a reaction against this idea of cancel culture that is going to make us more powerful. To quote, well, the evil empire, the more they tighten, their star systems will slip through their fingers.


That's the opportunity that they've given us. I think it's bad for the world that the left is creating a dual culture. I think it's bad for the world that the left is creating a dual economy. But I also think that to the extent that they've had almost unchecked power in the dominant culture and in the dominant economy, only the creation now of the dual economy gives us the opportunity to maybe one day make a better economy and a better culture that one day has a chance of being done.


And this ties into your point on the arbitrariness of it, because I, I think it's arbitrary when they say they have rules and they make up the rules on the spot in the rules change day by day and they cancel you for whatever. But what is not arbitrary is the people that they're canceling, the people that they're canceling tend to hold views very similar to what we think. If you are in any way contradicting the left wing orthodoxy, you are liable to be canceled and they'll make up some fake rule.


This is exactly right. It's all it's all pretextual. Yeah, it's they're doing all of this on the basis of who do we want to cancel and then how do we fit them into the box of sin.


But, you know, this is actually I was speaking to my son Spencer klavern, no relation today. And and he makes the brilliant point, as he so frequently does, that this is a an almost exact analog in the Inquisition in that nobody expects it.


No, no, no. They said the Catholic Church said in the Inquisition we have this new technology, which is the printing press. How wonderful. It spreads information. You can now read the Bible, you can have your own Bible. So it's a wonderful, wonderful thing, but it's spreading some bad information as well. And those people have to be burned at the stake and put on the rack basically the Twitter terms of service. It was bad.


Well, no, I'm not in favor of because so far. But then when does it go wrong?


So the the Twitter terms of service are the same thing. We have this wonderful Internet. It's spreading information, but is bad information. And those people have to be burned at the stake and put on.


I know you guys would say this is right. You know that House Democratic leader, right. Those two House Democrats who wrote that letter? Yes. And and Amazon in every major carrier in the country about inflammatory language and inciting language, they've broadened the definition of inflammatory and inciting to anything they disagree with. And then the idea is they're going to cajole corporations into doing their work, which, by the way, does violate the First Amendment. You are not allowed to make private corporations into agencies of the government for purposes of quashing the First Amendment.


There's case law on this, but they're trying it anyway. And this is this is what they're doing. I mean, did you see what Amazon is doing this week?


Oh, my goodness. They hate speech. Standard hate speech with Ryan T. Anderson, who's pal of some of us in this room ahead of the Ethics and Public Policy Center is a heritage formally at Heritage Foundation. This guy is as mainstream and scholarly, a conservative as it gets. And he came out with a book a few years ago, greatest book title I've ever heard when Harry became Sally responding to the transgender.


Really good book to a really good book. And it's actually not in any way an inflammatory, by the way, it's a sensitive book. It's a very sensitive he has a bunch of stuff in there about how people who are suffering from gender dysphoria ought to be treated humanely. And there's no excuse for treating people badly. I mean, he's got a bunch of stuff in there that is that is directly a rebuttal to sort of the suggestion that people on the right in here are furious person who doesn't say that.


Of course, the funny thing is it's not even an issue.


But what Amazon had done, they had taken off. If the Confederate flag was really politically incorrect, they took that offline or sometimes different symbols. They take that off. But they had the standard. They said we're not going to remove books for being politically incorrect because they don't want to be seen as burning books or banning books. As it is, though, we're the Inquisition very quietly. They took away that exception.


And now I mean we by the way, Mein Kampf is still on on Amazon. But Ryan Anderson's book is not on Amazon.


But you believe I got into a brief. I never do this. But I did get into a brief Twitter debate with our friend David French, who basically feels there should be no recourse because of the First Amendment. There should be no recourse when private entities who are multinational, richer than most two thirds of governments have more money than two thirds of the government collude together to essentially gut our rights. And my feeling is, wait, if the point of the First Amendment is to protect our rights, our rights, don't go away, because the First Amendment makes it difficult to cover a threat to them.


But the threat to our rights right now is in this collusion between companies that may not be monopolies in and of themselves, but when they collude, they become essentially monopolies and they're working in collusion with the government as well. Big tech, big government, big business, big, big, big if that's if that is not a threat that needs to be dealt with.


And I don't. I'm not a lawyer. I don't care how you do it, but it's got to be dealt with. You cannot have a system where whereby we cannot attack the threats to our speech. That's a speech is given the right to speech is given to us by God.


So, I mean, that's the problem on the right, where you've got at least half that are that are allergic to using the power of the government. Whereas on the left, there's wide agreement, of course, going to use the power of the government to do whatever we want. And I appreciate that on the right, at least there's a there's a debate about it, but it seems like there are some wide, pretty large significant preponderance that basically they don't want to use the power of the government to do anything at all.


And and I think that that kneecaps sort of smart way to use the power of government.


And there's a there's a stupid, of course. And I think that a lot of people are not distinguishing between the two. And so you end up with a really dumb kind of version of the argument, which is we can either do nothing or we're going to be step in and just tell them exactly what they ought to do in all circumstances. The reality is that what is really happen and this goes back to the Section two three argument, especially when it comes to these platforms, is that what Section 230 was designed to do was it was designed to enshrine the ability for corporations to actually protect free speech.


It was not the opposite what the what Section 230 was. Was it just to get into a little bit of legalism here? Because people don't understand Section two three particularly well, section 230 does not make a distinction between publishers and platforms. Section two thirty says when you have an open thread, then you are not responsible legally for what appears in that open thread. So Daily Wire is a private corporation, were responsible for what we put up that's edited.


But our comments we're not responsible for if somebody puts up plagiarized material in the comments, we're not legally responsible for that. And so that was the goal here was to allow platforms to exist because otherwise platforms literally would not exist. So what Section 230 did is it created an exception. The exception was specifically designed to allow platforms to get rid of material that was pretty much widely agreed to be excessive. So somebody put pornography in our in our comment section so we can remove that.


So we post obscenity or actual incitement to violence. We can remove all of that instead. What has happened is, as so often happens with the government, the exception became the rule. So then it became the government is going to tell corporations that if they don't use Section 30 to crack down on all the material government doesn't like, then they're going to come after those corporations. So the exception, not the rule. So that exception was designed to be an exception, right.


The idea is is going to be a broad spectrum of ideas that were available and only here and there. Where are you going to kind of pinpoint and move material that was truly offensive or truly terrible and instead of truly indecent?


Right. Because the Communications Decency Act is exactly virtually indecent. And instead, what happened is that the left basically seized upon this opportunity to say, OK, well, now what these platforms really should do is they should act just like a publisher. They should edit all of the content. They should decide which books they are willing to put out and which books they're not willing to put out. Not only that, we're going to have congressional hearings and we are going to say, as Dianne Feinstein says, if you don't do what we want you to do, we will regulate you into doing what we want you to do.


So if you actually want to fix this, there's a good proposal on the table for Marsha Blackburn, our senator here in Tennessee, to to take away the catch all provision of Section two, because originally Section two 30 says that it allows you to remove content that's obscene content. That is that is incitement to violence, content that normally would be illegal. Right. Like that kind of stuff. But there's also a catch all provision that says or anything otherwise objectionable.


And so what her bill does, it takes away the otherwise objectionable language. So now you cannot be relieved of liability if you if you just start willy nilly taking down stuff. And I think that that's probably the right move. Yeah. You know, it's funny how people are blind to the fact that the enemy is is always pools of power. Power corrupts absolute. Power corrupts absolutely. So the left has this idea that the state is going to come in and make everything great, but it doesn't understand that the state is a bunch of people with power.


And the right has this idea that big business is always going to be OK. But big businesses also people with power. And the left used to know this. The left used to know that corporations can be alternative governments that have the power of governments and can threaten you. You know, anybody with power, anybody with power has to be controlled. Is simply that because the people we're trying to protect or the ordinary guys, the little guys who have the right to speak, I would just define power a little more specifically than that, which is it's not about the bigness, it's about the actual power to compel.


That's right. Because the problem is not big business. The problem is big business working in collusion with government in order to restrict your rights. That's right. That's the stuff that's actually dangerous, because what we tend to do and conservative tend to do this. Do we talk about big government versus small government? The question is, in big government versus small government is what is what are the delegated powers of government limited and were they delegated? That's right. And is it is there are specific purposes.


The same thing is true of business. The question isn't big business or small business. It is business acting in favor of free markets and free labor, or is business acting against those things? Because I'm perfectly fine with a big business that does all the things that are in consonance with freedom being big and being competitive.


And hypothetically, I actually want to talk a little bit about why corporations went wrong and why I actually think the corporations are the biggest threat to the country right now. But before we talk about that, I want to talk about my favorite company, policy genius. Policy genius. How can have the two best items off of your list with ease?


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You know, other than insinuating that you might kill your wife. That was an excellent ad because my wife might kill me. That's true. That's that. You kind of want a little bit of right. I mean, it's true that the person sometimes get misalign mean right now, if I were to do something terrible to my wife, she has much stronger incentive to kill me than divorce me.


If I ever down in that four months, you know, having been thrown off the back of the train for the double indemnity, obviously.


Then then, you know exactly what if I ever found floating face down in my pool with three gunshot wound to my back, I didn't just trip and hit my head no matter what. My wife was Hillary Clinton. It was Hillary.


If you're thinking of people who might want to kill bin Elysha, I know you have that all wrong.


I like Ben. He signs my paychecks. It's Michael knows that. Say happy birthday, by the way.


It is his birthday this week. Happy birthday. Thank you.


She's a thank you for your share. I wish I'm thirty five now. If my husband decides to impregnate me again with another gorgeous child, I'm considered a geriatric pregnancy, which is just really depressing. But thanks for the birthday wish. There's a lot of lively chatter over on the chat box. And if you're like, whoa, hey, wait a second, I want to chat with you on the chat box. How do I do that? How do I ask the guys a question?


Well, then that means you've already given me an answer. You're not a daily wire subscriber. You should head on over to daily Wired.com slash subscribe and be sure to use the code of Ben's new show, Debunked, which comes out this February twenty six. So be sure to take a listen. Debunked will get you twenty five percent off. So be sure to go over to daily Wired.com slash, subscribe and use the codes debunked for twenty five percent off.


All right, that's first question we have goes to the one and only Matt Walsh, who is finally in the backstage studio. Fans have been asking for that for a very long time. So welcome to backstage, Matt. People want to know on a very serious note, when will you be joining smoking Michael and the God King and what instrument will you be playing?


This is like the third backstage.


Like I say, I didn't make an impression the first time it was we met while she was here right now. Definitely a temporary.


I do play the banjo, so, you know, I do. I mean, I can I yes, I can. I can pick up a banjo and make noises with it so I can do that, but I have to hammer it again. That's as far as my the real story is that my wife bought me a banjo. It was when we first got married, she bought me a banjo, my first birthday as a as a married person.


And because I had been giving making all this noise about how I wanted to learn the banjo and she bought it for me. And then what that meant was that for the really for the last ten years, it's just kind of sits there and she'll just periodically say, so you never learn a banjo, did you?


That's a I did learn.


And how many other instruments do play because people want some options here?


No, I don't play. I'm very good at not playing every day. The teacher is good at every instrument as you are.


That's a good way to put it, by the way. Completely. I know, but Matt and I were outside and the conversation turned to the film masculinity of the show and and we decided to create a masculinity ranking. I'm the host on the show, OK? And I have a show biz. It has. It has it has. But one standard. How many children have you sired by this ranking? It goes. Then me, then you, right?


Yeah, and then you and then you get tied for last place. Yeah. All right. I was going to tweet that out that Ben Shapiro said, I'm the manliest guy, the. We're the least.


Yeah. And I mean, it's been said I mean, he's a lumberjack and he has like eighty three children. So Jeremy and I are the least toxic people in. That's pretty good.


I did admit though to you. So we've got four kids, but the first two are twins. So it's kind of a two for one deal with the same number of pregnancies. That's right. But I'll happily take I think the beard gives me the tiebreaker.


I'll actually say, though, that I think one of the things that matters is can you change a tire? I mean, we're probably still tied for I would say that's true.


I mean, it up the top three only can change a tire, but have changed many tires frequently on reinsured freeways. Why don't you say it was before you had a popper? No, you didn't.


That's what tires and tires. And they were made so long ago, there were only three changing it. She was like G.C., you know.


Have you ever change the tire business? No, I seen me. I've never changed it.


I changed a tire once. I was visiting L.A. before. I live there and I was too cheap to get a good rental car. So I did a rent, a wreck. I was driving a ninety one Plymouth breeze around. You know, I will tell you there I go in. I figured out how to do it. It was the manliest I've ever.


By the way, there's a much higher chance that Aleesha has changed it higher than it was just definitely today.


That I will say though that I had a blowout this weekend and in my day, I grew up in rural Texas. That changed a lot of tires. You know, I used to be when I was a ute, I would like stop and help other people change their tires and they're took to the side of the road. Seem like the thing to do. But I've become soft. Yeah. And I was driving we had this huge snowstorm, as did almost the entire south of the country that last week.


Slaughterman it reeked. Holy hell on the roads here. Yeah, right. All the freezing, all the ice. So my wife and my baby and I, we rented a little Tesla. I thought maybe it'd be fun to have a Tesla. Elon Musk is cooler than me. So I rented this model three from a great family. It was cool. Pulled up to get this test. It's really cold outside. I get out of the Uber.


I'm walking up this young 17 year old kid comes out of his house and I said, Hey, man, good. Good to meet you guys. Oh, yeah. It's real cool to meet you. I said, yeah, I'm Jeremy. Yeah, I know. That's like, oh, we live in a town where we're famous.


We were used to living in a place where people either didn't know who you were or how we live somewhere where people are kind to us like us.


As I rented this Tesla from this kid, I drive it home and park it in the in the garage and then it dumps like twelve thousand pounds of snow. And I didn't get to drive the car for a week. So finally, I've got one day left on the Saturday and I jump in the car. I want to see if the baby babysitter throw the baby seat in the back and I jump in Dad and he jumps in, we go for a ride and I promptly hit one of these found potholes at full freeway speed and not the tire off the ramp.


Oh, my gosh.


The good news is in a crisis with my wife and my child in the car, I was able to figure out how to call roadside as good as they able to get him on the phone.


And they told me that they would be there in four hours. Oh, apparently a lot of people have broken down on the side of the road.


You know, the last I saw, the last time I got a flat tire, which, no, I don't know, about five, six years ago, I was in a very expensive BMW and I was out in the middle of nowhere and in the trunk, right?


Yeah, I was in the truck. The coyotes, literally coyotes were circling around me. And I thought, well, I know how to change a tire. And I took out the jack from this very expensive BMW and opened it up and it cracked in half my hands. And I thought, I guess people don't do.


This was a prop, by the way.


I mean, being as close to death as you are, it never occurred to you that that would have been like the coolest way to die down on the side of the road after getting out of your BMW? That would've been the headline I was.


And is there ever a coyote at your age? Is there ever a time when coyotes aren't circling vultures? Those are the vultures with me. I feel that they should be, you know, pay my fares, Elysha.


That all of those stories just revealed that I was more manly than been at my most pregnant with my second child because I put a spare tire on my family wagon because there was also a four hour wait, even though L.A. did not get a blizzard.


So that, let me reiterate, very wealthy and good point. All right. The next question goes to the God King Jeremy Boring. This subscriber must not know about daily wired, too, because they want to know if the daily wire, you know, it's entering into entertainment. You know, you're spending all of the shows, you're bringing on new talent. You're writing and scripting movies. They want to know about sports.


Yeah, but as you say, they obviously haven't been fans of The Daily Wire for long because we do very intensive sports coverage every is it three, three every three years or World Cup.


Whenever the World Cup happens, I cannot be bothered to know. Yeah, we do the daily wire to coverage of the event. Michael and I have been covering it very well lo these many years. Other than that, if you're talking about real sports that people are interested in that aren't anti-American and that should be played by a first world country, I think it's a great idea. We have talked about it. I think it'd be a lot of fun to create a deeper collaboration with our friends over at our kick that they have a great attitude.


They're absolutely hilarious. Clay Travis is kind of a hero. He's right here in Nashville. Know we could defeat. But if he covered soccer. No, no, we could we could call it daily wire three. We could. So we can we can keep the wire, too, but then we can put those sports. So there's daily where one. Yeah. Which is politics. Politics daily wire three. Which is sport. Yeah. And daily or two for you know that other thing.


Yeah. It's a great idea. They every day, every four years.


I think the next question is for Drew Drew. People want to know what projects are you working on now you have a little more free time since you don't have your Daily Show. And more importantly, are there any people that will work with you in Hollywood since you're a very open conservative?


No, they're not. But I am as busy as I have ever been.


So you've got to stand that coffin really in the coffin. You've got to be ready any minute. But no, I'm as busy as I've ever been. I just sold. I'm so delighted that I just sold to Thomas Nelson, the Christian publishers who publish my memoir. I sold my essentially the sequel to my memoir, which is about literature. And the gospel doesn't have a better title. I know it's called The Truth and Beauty. So you'll be so much better if it was called yet another thing, the better.


I am writing.


You know, I just I just you know, the thing is, I just finished a draft of the script we're going to do here, I hope, and another project script. And I've got a new series of mystery novels coming out. So I'm as busy as I have ever been. And it's only it's only because of my hatred for novels that have come here at all so I can insult them. That's good, because when when you plots, that will be just this whole trunk filled unfinished manuscript put out there one by one.


Did you take insurance out on me? That's policy genius, Dotcom.


All right. Talking about scripts, Ben, everyone in the chat wants to know, have you seen a script for Gina's movie? What will it be about and when is it coming out?


So actually, this this question is better directed to Jeremy. So I will say that there are active and ongoing talks about what exactly the script should be. I know that Jeremy is is waiting through scripts right now, looking for the right project. But because it is a development process and because we're working on a very personal level with Gina, it's going to take, you know, a little bit of time for us to find exactly what we want to do.


I think it's important for people to understand that. Gina, part of what Gina wants in building this next stage of her career is not just to be an actress for hire, but to be a producer as she wants the ability to actually help craft the story, to put her mark on whatever her next project is. We're working once again with our friends over at Bonfire Legend Dallas. Dallas is going to produce Gina's film. He he read 60 scripts over the weekend.


I looked at him. He was a shell of a man. You know, he couldn't tell you about any of them. Maybe like which one did you like best? Because there's a Western and a spaceship. OK, you get some sleep, send me the fifteen or sixteen best scripts, which he has done.


And we're and we're working our way through. By the way, all right, they should hire me for this, too, because I've got a great idea. Everybody's got to know through.


What we're learning from Drew is he's never going to retire. And if he does retire, the tail end up in the trunk eaten by coyotes or something offensive. All right. So then the next question, since Fadwa to God, King answered that the God king answered that last one. So, Ben, I'll toss this one to you. It's a very good question. If somebody wants to know, hey, I've become a daily wire subscriber, but what are you doing to protect yourself against big tech, as we saw with parler conservative sites that are just shut down because people like Google and Amazon say, hey, we're not going to allow you on our servers.


Have you guys protected the daily wire and the subscribers against something like that?


So we definitely have been working on figuring out alternative platforms that we could shift over to in case something like Amazon Web Services, what they did to people ever happens to us. We've expended enormous time and energy and money on exactly this sort of question. Again, I'm going to I'm going to redirect the question to Jeremy, because for people who understand how the daily world works, basically all business questions go here and all ideological questions go here and all questions about cigars go there and all questions about not paying the bills go.


They're all questions and all questions about just general malaise and cynicism. Go there. And that's basically the breakdown. And if you want somebody who's nice to you, then relations here, too.


Yeah, that's right. I'll say that has been said. Yeah, we've expended a lot of time into this question since what happened to Parler took place. The truth is the problem is greater than any company is going to be able to answer, you know, Amazon Web Services. Controls the servers for 50 percent of the entire World Wide Web. It's an unbelievable amount of infrastructure. So when people are like, why don't you build your own servers? It would be like if in in nineteen eighty two the telephone companies had gotten involved in censorship and somebody had said, well, why don't you just build your own phone company?


And my answer would be, OK. It took 100 years to run phone lines to every rural household across a continent. That's what you're talking about. And what if we build all these servers? We go raise 100 hundred billion dollars or a trillion dollars to build the kind of infrastructure on the server side that you need? And then Amazon never actually acts against another conservative. But the but the ISP providers do like the problem that faces conservatives is so vast.


And to take on any part of it would take the wealth of a small nation to try to conquer. And then that may not be the attack vector. They're like a hundred attack vectors that need to be solved. So what I really believe needs to happen here is several things. On one hand, we need not to reinvent all of this, but to diversify our reliance on any one platform. So to Ben's point, we're looking at other potential data facilities, some that you might be able to put yourself on, some that you might be able to actually use as almost a shadow server where we're constantly being updated on a backup server.


And if something happens, you can very quickly and seamlessly move your stuff over. Very expensive, not as expensive as building Amazon Web Services. But more than that, I think what needs to happen is conservative millionaires and billionaires need to change the way that they think about technology. There's a reason that Amazon can kick you off. It's that conservatives have no power at Amazon. There's a reason Facebook can kick you off. Conservatives have no or very little power at Facebook.


There's a reason that Twitter can treat you the way they do. You don't have a problem of conservatives being run out of their homes because conservatives are great at real estate. You don't have a problem of conservatives running out of gas. Conservatives are great at energy. There's just these different spheres that draw people with different mentalities. And I think the proof that conservatives don't have the mentality necessary to solve this problem is actually in the question, are we building our own servers?


The answer to the problems of bifurcated use of technology is not that we build what they currently have. There are conversations happening all over the world right now in real time that make servers obsolete. There are people talking about block chain. There are people talking about things beyond blocking the names of which I don't know. There are kids with backpacks going to left wing billionaires and left wing venture capital funds and left wing angel investors and creating the future. And we're not a part of those conversations either.


And the answer to how do you how do you solve the problem of it took a century to build all those phone lines isn't to go try to replicate that. It's to invent the cell phone. And until we change our mentality, we're just going to lose on whatever the next thing is to whatever the next thing is. And we're going to build some crappy alternative version of what they've already got. And it's not just going to further ghettoize us. We have to completely change the way that we think about how to ask a follow up, a question to this, because one of the things that is very frustrating to me is that conservatives seem very, very reluctant to think that there may be legal remedies here.


But it does seem that at some point this is a new technology and the new technology needs new law and it needs new law to make sure that all of us have a chance to speak. If this is the way we speak to one another and it is, we should be able to speak to one another no matter what our political beliefs are.


And so is isn't there some place for me to say to lobbying and other things and then I'll let the lawyer talk. The first one is conservatives need to embrace lawfare. It's deeply distasteful. It's horrible. It's against our great. But we actually need to embrace it because those are the weapons. That's the battle. But I'll also say this one one reason that the daily wire, we're not safe, but we are far less likely to be kicked off of servers than is parla is because Parler wasn't conducting any actual economic activity.


Parla is is a free platform and everybody is using is using it for free. They don't have a vast ad network. If if some big tech company were to. Not the daily wire off of their servers because of speech or something like that. Over one hundred employees, we do millions and millions of dollars worth of business, we have tens of millions of fans, we have ads on our website every day doing hundreds of thousands of micro transactions that goes all the way to the Supreme Court.


There's actual damages. And one thing that one thing that you have to keep in mind when you talk about the law is the concept of damages. And the damages are just fundamentally different where we're concerned. This is why it happens. I mean, it's a it's a sorry state of affairs, but they're not unsophisticated about who they target. Yeah. I mean, they target people who have the weakest. Opportunity to challenge them. And this is one of those areas where you're starting to see some state action, right?


Ron DeSantis has talked about going after some of the tech companies and making it so that they can't do this sort of stuff, extending anti-discrimination law toward politics in the arena of technology, particularly free speech platforms. And it seems to me that if we've restricted freedom of association so strongly in this country that we already have anti-discrimination laws, that applies to every single element of American life except for your politics. Right. You can't you can't discriminate against somebody on the basis of religion, sex, age, disability, anything.


And nobody is in favor of that sort of discrimination. But it used to be that freedom of association meant that you just sort of had to deal with the fact that sometimes people didn't want to hang out with you. But the left, it's completely made that obsolete. But you have to hang out with whoever the left says you have to hang out with and you have to do business with whoever the left says you have to do business with. I think there's going be a strong move made, particularly in red states, against some of these corporations saying if you guys start booting people, then we are going to take legal action against you.


You're going to have violated our state law. Is there a is there a concern that you can no longer have ideological organizations, for example, that the daily wire would have to have to hire Left-Wing activists to be employed? So you'd have to create actual legal carve outs. You'd have to say if you're an overtly partizan organization, then you can do this in the same way that their religious carve outs for anti-discrimination law. Yeah, you'd have to do that for overtly political organizations who would pose a problem for five.


One, two, three is particularly there are a lot of political five one threes that have a conservative or a liberal bent, and because they're nonprofit, they can't be overtly associated with the party or not associated with a party. And so it could get very muddy, very fast. And you listen, in my preferred world, as much as I hate discrimination, I hate cracking down on freedom of association more in the same way that as much as I hate vile speech, I hate cracking down on free speech more.


But it seems like that shit may have already sailed. So as long as that ship has already sailed, then the only alternative left is going to be an extension of anti-discrimination law in the field of politics already exist in place like California. It's just never been enforced, really.


And this is such an important key because we can say, well, we don't like this. I really wish we lived in a different world. But as you say, Jeremy, we've got to play with what we've got. Politics involves eternal principles. It also involves applying those principles to real circumstances that are all always changing. And if we want to survive, if we want to be smart about this, then you've got to you've got to play the game.


And there's a difference between using the weapons that are the weapons of the battlefield and using the logic that they use and always.


Right. I agree with this. I totally agree. It's it's what we always said about mutually assured destruction. Right. When we launched with Revolt, we said we hate the tactics that we're about to use. As soon as you guys stop using them, we'll stop using. Right. Right, right. And I think that that's accurate as far as a lot of these things, which is, you know, there's only one thing that is worse than having a nuclear weapon, and that's everybody else having one and you not having one.


Right. And that's right.


And it always bothers me. We play the hypocrisy game with the left, which I think is actually destructive. So the left says, you know, you said it was a dark day when Obama was elected. A dark means that you didn't like the color of his skin. You think like, that's not what I meant. But you said this, which is accepting their terms of battle. And I don't I don't agree with this at all. I mean, I I'm really offended by the racial pathology of the left.


I think it is I think it is irreverent to the human condition. I think that the to treat people according to the color of their skin is a wrong. And I think it's wrong no matter what color their skin is. I don't care if they're hypocrites about it. I want it to stop. I want to say that no, you know, if you a black guy who did a bad thing, you did a bad thing. You're a white guy who did a bad thing.


You did a bad thing. I don't care. I'm taking people as they come. And the idea now that they're selling to us, that anti that being a non racist is racist. Yeah. Is isn't she right.


You can't you can't be non racist. So either you're the racist or anti-racist. There's no third category called non racist.


So that's why I think that's why I think Kinsel culture is so dangerous, because what it does is it makes people afraid to say your entire premise is wrong.


But this is so this is the biggest thing. I think that when when we talk about cancer culture, it's easy to point to the big circumstances of cancer culture like Chris Harris or Gina. But the reality is the people that affect most are the people who are the low level employees of Disney. That's right. Because they are the people it affects most are not people like the people sitting in this room who talk for a living or do business at a high level in politics.


The people it affects the most are the people who work for Coca-Cola and who make forty five thousand dollars a year and don't have the labor mobility to be able to just move over to Pepsi, especially when Pepsi is teaching the exact same kind of stuff. Well, cancel culture is about is intimidating everybody into silence. It's not even about canceling anybody. It's about putting a head on a pike. And the more heads you put on, plague's more people are scared to speak out and they know that, which is why they're going to keep putting heads on pikes.


In fact, it is imperative that they keep putting heads on pikes because the minute that the heads on the pike stop, somebody might push back against their dominance. And that's why that's why I get so I get so disgusted. I'm almost at the point with cancer culture when a high profile person gets canceled and they start apologizing to Chris Harrison. Right. I agree. I'm at the point where I despise you more. Right. For apologizing than I do that I do despise the mob for.


So you're in the first place, like Chris Harris is such a perfect example, and we didn't even mention it in that interview that we really talked about.


He was it was he was so circuitous in in standing up to he could not have been less aggressive in what he said. And he kept articulating he kept he kept reiterating that, well, I'm not defending her and I don't really know.


And she might be a racist. But look, guys, maybe, just maybe we shouldn't be destroying people's lives over this and they still cancel anyway. And then what does he do? It falls to his knees and apologizes and admits he says, yeah, I am a racist. I mean, he accepts their their accusations against him even though he's not a racist. If you do that, then you're just as bad as them. And you're also all the other the smaller people, the people you're talking about who don't have this kind of platform, you're throwing them under the bus, too, because you're not just as bad as them.


You're actually worse because you're you're you've got all of their vices and cowardice.


But they're power. And that's what I mean.


They're actually that's why that's why I just want to say the the genre of the public apology. Yeah. Has to go away even if what you did was wrong. Now, Chris Harrison's case, all these other cases, Gina Carano, like, they didn't do anything wrong. But even if you did something wrong and the cancer culture is coming after a great example, still don't apologize for Morgan Wallin.


I don't know the track, the story. One of the biggest country stars. Oh, yes. The world has a new album out. Fantastic. He's a bit of a hell raiser, probably not our kind of guy. He gets home from a long night of partying. He's not being a very good neighbor. He gets out a couple of pickup trucks in front of his house. Some of his buddies, they're honking on the horn. And it's one 30 in the morning or something in a dick and.


He's yelling at some of his buddies and he uses a series of jocular pejoratives to describe his buddies, none of his actual friends, none of which can be said on this show.


He calls them nincompoops and tinkerers and. Right.


A puppy breath. All of it, then. His neighbor was probably rightfully ticked off at the guy. It's one 30 in the morning. You're trying to sleep apparently on their security camera, their doorbell camera the next morning realizes that you can hear him using these words against his friends. And one of them is that one word that no one in America is allowed to say except for all of Hollywood children at church if you're of a particular race. And so for this.


Total Soviet style iRace erasure is dropped by his label, he is dropped by his songs were climbing, the charges he's dropped by his label. He's dropped by both of the major radio entities in the country who collectively own all of the radio stations.


He's dropped by his Country Music Awards, took him off the Country Music Awards. This qualifies him the image that everybody disqualifies him. He he said something distasteful. He said several distasteful things. He said one thing that we as a society know, there are special rules around. I actually don't accept those. I don't agree with those rules, but there's no denying the existence of those rules. Nevertheless, he said it in a nonracial context to his friends.


Privately, it was captured essentially by a disgruntled, voyeuristic neighbor. And for this, we've erased them from from civilization. He didn't do anything wrong. He did do something gross. Yeah. He didn't do anything wrong. He did not do anything racist. The apology that he put out. To the people who have destroyed his life on the basis of nothing, grants them write, grants them their premise, will they give him his career path? Of course, they're not going to give him his career back, but there's no redemption.


And you think about the asymmetry here for a second, too, because when you say he didn't do anything wrong, well, he did something wrong.


He came home late, he woke or he was a jerk, you know, so he's using words he shouldn't use, use words, use that. But he didn't use them in the way. That is the racist way to use that word. Right, in a black guy and shout the N-word at him. Right.


If you're thinking about what sort of punishment these sorts of things should entail, should it entail destroying your entire life and erasing you from society, there's no proportionality.


This is the thing, though, that I think that too many conservatives don't understand, which is this is the fight that we're in. So we're not in the fight where we have to storm Normandy, where we have to come off the ships and the machine guns are coming out. This is the fight we're in. And so and so when you say, oh, this is going to cost you money, where this is going to cost you your job or this is going to cost you your friends.


This is the fight we're in. And those guys who stormed Normandy actually got bullets in the head and were killed, lost their lives. And I'm worried that, like, we don't understand as a as a half of the country, we don't understand that the losses were suffering. Other losses you suffer when you were in a fight that has to be won and you're going to and you're going you're going to suffer those losses anyway.


That's what if the cancel mob is coming after you. Well, you have to understand is there's a very good chance that they will destroy your life.


They might not. I mean, you might you might beat them. Gina Carano beat them. You might not beat them. They might destroy you. But that's going to happen anyway. And so what you can decide right now is whether you're going to have your dignity on the way out. Morgan Wollen decided that he's not going to have his dignity because he apologized to these people. Here's the thing about an apology. You apologize to people who you have actually harmed.


And this is right. And so if Morgan Wollen had gone to his neighbors and knocked on their door personally without any cameras there and said, listen, if I if you had to hear that, I'm so sorry, I apologize to you.


That was obnoxious. A few too many earlier. Sorry.


And then if he had just gone and done his video thing and said, listen, I spoke to my neighbors, I'm not going to tell you what that conversation was, it's none of your business, but all you people out there that are trying to destroy me. I do not apologize to you because you were not harmed by what I did. You don't really care that you're excited for the opportunity to destroy my life just because you get a kick out of it.


So I do not apologize to you if you are offended. I'm glad you were offended.


That's all I have to say about that. Got to do this year. And the thing is, if you had said that to be in the same spot today, that it is.


And it really but I do think there is a special duty that adheres to people who have the power to do that, because if Morgan Wallen had done that, it would have been a hell of a lot more than the local employee, a Coca-Cola. Right. When when we like what we did with Gina, I think it is. And I mean pat ourselves on the back.


But we deserve a pat on Mother Teresa. I mean, you know, like like I like and I think the audience knows this, which is why we had the best week we've ever had in the history of the company over this. The the by by putting our money where our mouth is and saying we're not going to allow people to be canceled. That was a statement in the culture and that's a statement that more business people need to make. I mean, I'll be real with you.


I would hire Morgan Wollen tomorrow. I tried to reach out. I mean, I would I would hire Morgan Wollen tomorrow because I don't think that what Morgan Wollen did was intended to harm black people. And I don't think that what he did did harm black people. I think that what he did was being asked right. And guess what? Being an ass is a bad thing to do. And again, apologize for that. But that is a legal thing to do in the United States.


And sometimes people are asking and there should be forgiveness available to people in our assets.


And again and again, the president of the United States won't help schools open so black people can send their children.


You get educated in the real things, aren't you know, there's a phrase that Jeremy once said in a in a very similar sort of cancelation situation. And it it resonates here and that is that cowards get their friends killed. And that's that's really what we're talking about here, because it's not just that they're a coward because they're backing down in the hopes that they'll get their career back. It's the cowardice that gets everybody else killed, because now you set the new standard and you've reinforced the standard.


This came up originally in the context of Mark Duplass, who, of course, is this famous director, producer, actor who committed the grave sin of once having said a nice thing about me on Twitter. He came to the office. I gave him an hour and a half of my time. I canceled for that. Yeah, yeah. I mean, of course that should be I give an hour and a half of my time. We talk about Second Amendment stuff.


I was very nice to him. And as he was leaving, I said, for your own sake, do not post on social media that you were here because they're going to you for it. And a couple of weeks later, he got it into his head that he's going to do a nice thing. And he tweeted out, I disagree with Ben Shapiro about a lot of things, but he did a nice thing for me when he didn't have to.


And he's well intentioned. You got hit so hard that he not only pulled down that tweet, he then issued a groveling apology. Right. And then what ended up happening on the back of that groveling apology is that James Gunn came out and defended him. And then everybody on the right resurfaced. James Gunn's old material and James Gunn end up getting fired. Right. And I ended up defending James Gunn in this bizarre situation. So I was like Danos, like just by existing.


I took out half the Marvel Universe. And what and what Jeremy said at the time is the thing about cowards is they rarely get themselves killed. They get all their friends killed because when you duck out of. The battle, what you end up doing is granting the opposition their entire premise, and that premise is then used against all the people who heretofore were your friends. And so that's exactly right. You should only apologize are a wonderful thing when you have done the wrong thing.


If you have a good marriage, apologize first thing in the morning, your wife. But but the reality every morning. It doesn't matter what or not. Husband is the first word out of your mouth in the morning. But but when it comes to public policy, the issuing of these Maoist struggle session, apologies for things that you haven't done wrong to people you have not wrong. When people issue apologies and they say to everyone who was offended by this.


Well, no, if you're offended by this wrongly, I'm sorry, your emotions may even be authentic, but that does not mean they are justified and you do not deserve an apology.


Well, you know, on this point of Maoism, I think that's actually the perfect term. There was this phenomenon in the 70s with the New York radical women's group. They coined the term or sort of popularized the term consciousness raising.


And there are these famous meetings where you'd get all these housewives to come together and they would I call them wine and cheese soirees complained the whole time. And there's a famous essay about this by Carol Hanish, and she says that there was a woman who came and she said, you know, before I came here tonight, ladies, I had no idea how oppressed I was.


But darn it, when I leave, I am so oppressed and Marius and aggrieved. Yeah. And you see this now, people trying to convince themselves to be aggrieved and offended by some public comment that no one cares about.


I want to say one thing. And Mark, what is it? Marc Morial, I'm sorry. I just had a I'm in Morgan Vollans defense and that's that. I think that for us, we live in this space and we know about this fight. I think when when they come for you and you haven't thought about these things. And it's a really good point. They are taking your life and your we talked about it with Gina and you think you can it and your good name away and you trust that everybody around you is telling you to do it.


Yeah. I mean, honestly, the best thing that happened to Gina and this whole thing is that her agency did. No. You guys, if your agency hadn't dumped her, we would've called her up. And you know, her agent, what? I said, don't take their call. No way. Don't take her call. Because if you work with that, you'll never work in this town again. Now, the reality is that we're never going to let Gina work in the town again anyway.


Right? Right. But her agent would have said no, maybe in a few years.


You know, you go away for a while, you can earn your way back in with bit parts. I guarantee you what happened, Morgan Wollen, is that his initial reaction was probably I don't know what is going on right now. And his agent got on the phone with him and his agent probably said to him, listen, you need to issue an apology right now. Maybe we can put out this fire right now and then the news cycle move on.


But you need to issue the apology to this. And and if if you've never been through the fire, it is egregious. I mean, it is it is truly one of the worst. I can tell you that as a person who gets trended on Twitter approximately every two and a half weeks. Right. I mean, it is never fun whether it is justified or unjustified. It is never fun. And that's somebody who does it professionally. I basically trend on Twitter professionally.


If you are somebody who only trends once in your life and that time is because you are losing your job and your livelihood. And it's a tsunami of media coverage like a tsunami, because the more you trend, the less big the bumps are. Honestly, like in terms of the differential from Norm, like the normal for me is that I mentioned on Twitter a lot. And then on a few days a month, I get mentioned like a super lot.


But if you're Gina, you don't get mentioned on Twitter all that often except for people who are saying they enjoy you in the Mandalorian. And then one day you are the only thing that everyone in the country.


And the trend is followed by a deluge of emails, often phone calls, and it's overwhelming. And people don't know that. It passes to you know, before we started, Matt and I were talking about Media Matters who do nothing.


But they sit around and they listen to us and try and twist your words into and publicize our show and publicity, or they try to they try to make us sound like terrible people for things that we say, which in context are actually not terrible at all. And I have to admit, it's a terrible you're going to hate me for this. I actually have pity for them. Yeah, that's your job. Your job is to try and make other people look bad and to listen to us.


And I just think, like, you know, at the end of your life, like you're going to stand before the throne of God and he's going to go, like, what did you do?


Yeah, well, I know these are damaged people, no question about that. And it does get to your point, which is I don't I don't need to accept their standard. You know, if they if they basically on the left, all they exist to do is call us all racist. And then one day a clip of Joe Biden goes around and it stumbles on his words because it's a day that ends in Y and he sort of sounds like he said the N word.


And then we all sort of giggle about that. I don't care. I don't think he really said that. I don't I don't think he is some bigot. I don't think that. I just think it's playing into their game, pointing out the hypocrisy that they don't care about because they don't care about the rules anyway. They just don't like us. I would much rather do what I'm going to do. I would much rather build culture, make movies with people we want to work with, do those sorts of things than worry about their stupid rules which change every day.


That's right.


I mean, this is the thing that I cling to is racism is an actual philosophy, which I don't hold.


Think any of the people in this room hold. It's not a slip of the tongue. It's not something that you might have said that was untoward. It's not even a moment of anger when some tribal glitch in your brain goes off. It's an actual way of life. I know racists. They actually think the things that these people are being canceled for. I just don't accept the terms. I do not accept the terms of the argument. I don't accept that.


As you say, if if somebody shouted a word, he shouldn't shout. Well, that's a bad thing. But it's not necessarily a racist thing. You're talking about The Bachelor. I just think it's absurd, especially we know it's a grift because of the governor of Virginia who doesn't get canceled because then a Republican would go a step further. Shouting A racial pejorative is not necessarily racist. That's right. That's right. Now, you're doing something racist does not necessarily make you a racist.


It means you did a racist thing. So there they're actually even there's an even another radiation, which is, I think, a very interesting point you just made. Sometimes people in their worst moments actually do succumb to the worst thoughts. That's right. That doesn't actually define them. You know, people say all the time like and this is not to let them know that there are gradations. There are gradations. And what the left is aside is there are no gradations and there is just the dammed and the woak.


And that's right there.


This thing that people used to say back in college, it's like, well, you know, you'd you'd have a couple too many drinks. You'd say something you shouldn't about one of your buddies or whatever, and you'd apologize the next day and be like, no, what you say when you're drunk is that's who you really are. I saw the real you because that all your inhibitions were gone. You said what you really believe and that never resonated with me.


Yeah, that's what I actually thought was no. When my inhibitions were gone, when my rational mind was gone, when I was only given into my vices and racist passions, you're you're saying that that's the real me.


But no, the real me is all of the things that I've built on top of my worst impulses. All the things that I've built on top of my intrinsic tribalistic way of looking at things are my selfish ways of looking at things or my, you know, vain ways of looking at things in my hateful what we all have the seed of sin in us.


What we build on top of that is the real US.


This is why, you know, when I was talking about Rush a lot of this week, because we all weren't thinking about Rush. And, you know, I was really obviously I think all of us were really just moved by the passing of this guy and all these liberals celebrating his death and publishing things that he had said, some of which were untoward, most of the things they published. He never said yes. But now and again, he said something that I thought like, I don't agree with that.


And I don't think probably Rush, if you pushed them to the wall, would agree with it. But he spoke three hours a day live to people. That's more 30 years for 30 people speak to their spouses.


You do not speak to your spouse that a day.


And what I say to all these people is you ever say anything to your spouse that you're glad I didn't become this?


I mean, this is what I have. But this is what I wrote in The New York Times, which, frankly, I'm shocked that they solicited an op ed from me. I will I will say they took out a slap I had at The New York Times in that piece. There was originally. Oh, I know. I mentioned the fact that the headline in The New York Times about Rush was that he had like turned talk radio into an aggressive right wing attack machine.


And their headline about Ayatollah Khomeini was thoughtful, religiously. Right.


But but the but the point that I was making is that what the left did with Rush is what they are going to do with all of us there, like in Judaism. So to teach you all about a different religion. So Satan is not a character who's opposed to God. That's not what Satan is. Satan is known as the accuser because he's essentially the prosecutor. The idea is that after you die, Satan comes and he basically is the one who is going to try you in court before God.


And he's the one who strings together all of your sort of worst moments. Right. And that is what this is. And this will come for all of us. I said in the piece that it wouldn't matter if it had been Tucker or have been Sean or if it me or if it had been you or anybody was prominent on the right, the reaction would have been the same, because all our lives would have been would have been a compendium of the worst moments of us taken out of context and robbed of all meaning.


Right. That's all it would have been. And that's what you saw in the CNN montage, right. The montage of Rush was like Sandra Bullock and it was the AIDS stuff in nineteen eighty eighty eight. And it was it was all this is like the out of the thirty years of material, what are the six worst things he did and can we use those things to rag on him. Can we use those things to characterize his entire life. And we should all refuse to accept this frame.


We should refuse to accept this frame. The reality is that we are all a compendium of all the things that we've done over the course of our life, most of which people never see. And for those of us who are in public life, the notion that everything that you do can be boiled down into one bad tweet or one bad moment, all that really is, is because it can be done to anybody, all that anybody. But it isn't.


But it it isn't. But because it can be done to anybody, that's how you know who they hate, because you deal with anybody, literally anybody.


And but there's only one side of the aisle that they choose to do this. You those are the people that they cancel. And so don't accept the standard that this is how people should be characterized.


I think it's so important for us to reject this framework for the sake of our children. Yes. Because our our children I mean, somebody please think of this.


Let's actually think about the children, because our kids, not my kids, but so many kids are starting out on social media at the age like eight years old. And or even if they started social media at 14 or 15 and just everything, they think that everything that enters their head is documented forever online. And you've got to think about what we're what we're starting right now with this cancela culture. If it continues like this, thirty years from now, all of our children are ruined.


Their lives are ruined. I'm finally grateful to God.


Yeah. That I grew up before cell phone. Oh, my.


Right. Also on this rush point, I mean, you figure these kids are going to be on social media all the time. Imagine what's going to crop up. Imagine if you've been on air for three hours a day for for 30 years. And your job, by the way, is to be provocative, especially earlier on in the career. And the best thing they got on you is an AIDS joke you made in 1990.


Don't you imagine that?


Like I wake up in the morning, right? We actually pray this sort of things like God have mercy on me, a miserable sinner. You think of these lines from Shakespeare of like I could accuse myself of such things that it would be better that my mother had not borne me all the sins we all commit. That's the best they got on the guy. He's pretty clean.


Well, and we're taking out of the other thing we're doing is we're not taking, of course, the time when these things were said in the context at all. And and we forget about nineteen eighty, we're going back to the eighteen forties and saying, like, whatever someone did back then we're going to hold them to. Pandas of the Year twenty twenty one, which, of course, is complete madness. I mean, as somebody who is writing publicly from the time I was 17, I can say the great majority of the things I regret having written occurred between the ages of 17 and 20 to write.


Right. Because when you're first starting out, number one, you're trying to get attention. And number two, your thoughts aren't fully formed. Right. If you don't get better at what you do over time, become a better thinker over time. You're not being a human being. Yeah, that's just called maturing. And so what they and the media celebrate this stuff. This is how it's the easiest form of fake journalism. Right? This is the other things that the media have made an entire model, the same people who whine about the fact that we get good traffic over daily wire because we happen to be conservative and then say that we're like, these are the same people who run a three thousand rupees about some jackass of a 19 year old student who decides to out a high school cheerleader who once texted something about learning to drive and quoted a rap lyric with the N-word in it and get her kicked off.


The University of Tennessee cheerleading team, New York Times actually did that. The New York Times ran a long piece about this this terrible student. I mean, this guy's a terrible person who literally held there's a 15 year old girl. As she got her driver's permit, she put up a video on her phone saying, I can drive now and word. And it was obviously meant to quote a rap lyric.


I mean, clearly meant to quote Arafat or this was not an epithet aimed at racial. And everybody acknowledged this. Right. This is fully obvious. And this jerk decided because he's in her class, he decided that he was going to hold on to this video. He waited until, I think it's three years later, just kept this video around. Wait until three years later when Black Lives Matter happened. And she made the great misfortune of posting something in support of Black Lives Matter.


And he said, well, you say you support Black Lives Matter. You said this puts out the video. The University of Tennessee withdraws her cheerleading scholarship, which was her dream, was to be on the University of Tennessee cheerleading team, which is one of the great cheerleading teams in the country. She had to withdraw her entire admission from University of Tennessee over this. We are creating an unlivable culture. It is only livable for people on the hard left.


And by the way, everybody knows this, everybody in it, it's not even going to be livable for them. It's not the revolutions that the revolutions in their own, every one of them is going to bring. All the people like you talk about our publicists over at Media Matters and sleeping giants and Lump-sum Mom and Kevin Roose and Kara Swisher, they don't they're all doomed.


Not because of us. Yeah, because of us. Because they're not. Twenty three. Yeah, well, twenty three year olds. The walk. Twenty three year olds will one day eat them for lunch. Yeah. Yeah. Think of poor Trotzky.


You know, you thought you had it so well if you ever hear a ringing in your ear guys I spent the spring and that's why sometimes you hear people on the right lament this happening to some of the councilors now.


Now they deserve every bit of what they've got coming to them. They built this and they deserve what they have coming soon. I can object to it happening to them and still recognize that they have exactly what they built.


Cummings It's really interesting to me who has you know, I've been an artist all my life. Half the people I know are gay. I've worked with all these gay people. I've always enjoyed their company. They're hilariously funny, all the stuff.


I once went snorkeling with Brian Anderson when Harry Met Sally. I'm Ryan and I together is one gay guy. Yeah, that yeah. But I remember it.


But I remember back in the day series liberals, liberals who wouldn't come back to my house because they met a gay person there. They wouldn't come back to see me because they'd come to a party and there was a gay couple there. And those same people, those same people are walking around with their rainbow flags now and canceling anyway. And I just think, like, it's it's all malarkey. This is the thing that really gets me is all a grift.


It has nothing to do with the happiness of gay people, of black people, of women, of it has nothing to do with any of that. Is the world happier because we cancel culture? It is much, much.


Well, this is by the way, this is sort of the thesis of my first book with words. Is this kind of.


Wait a minute, wait a minute. This is shocking. We'll see if I finish it. But that political correctness basically replaces moral codes with speech codes, the old moral codes with the new speech codes. So it matters much less what you do. It actually doesn't really matter at all what you do. It matters what you say and the imposition of that, because that was taken, my fair lady, it was like that doesn't matter what you do, is it?


As long as you say it correct.


I think about this with the actor Armie Hammer. Yeah. You guys know as many years ago, a good a good friend of mine, a good pal of mine. And in later years we've not been close. Our paths have taken us in different directions. And he doesn't share our politics. But still a guy I'm very fond of. And he said some things on to some gals that are. Hard to read. Yeah, they're weird. He expressed sexual predilections to them.


And for that, he's being erased from the world. I don't even understand the story. This is my point. So Army says I want to eat toes and I'd like to eat your rib and some other things. Right.


And who among us has ribs are delicious. A human if just taking back what Adam once gave as if. Army didn't need anybody. Yeah, right, right. Army didn't drug and sodomized a 13 year old girl like Roman Polanski did, and Harrison Ford flew to France to give him an honorary Oscar. Yeah, like this is why I don't get this. It's only what you say. He expressed some words. He expressed some dark fantasies. No, but wait.


As I understood the story, he he has some kind of weird sexual fetish that he performed on some of these girls who were there. They didn't stop him from doing this. I'm not understanding I don't know what he's been canceled or like in other words, like I saw we engaged in consensual sex.


Yeah. And he said that he would like to eat a rib or eat a couple of toes. Yeah. In some direct messages. And for this he must be destroyed. And now I'm not making a moral defense of.


No, it is definitely. But I am saying what. What did you think? To be honest, you I know that there are a lot of good ones to talk to me after the show.


That was an interesting story because it was Cosmopolitan magazine actually published an article after that defending cannibalism fetishes.


That's right. And I read I read the article for someone who doesn't. Yeah, I was reading I read the article for some reason. And it just struck me that that is kind of off topic a little bit, I guess. But it's just our culture has no language anymore to condemn any kind of perversion because it's all about consent. And so the only language, the only the only moral rule we have left is consent. And that's where everything comes down to consent.


And as long as people consent, then we have no language with which to condemn anything. And so this article was going through, you know, it couldn't just come out and say, well, this is wrong to want to eat people. That's weird and wrong. They couldn't say that. So instead, it was trying to figure out how well you didn't really have consent.


You know how they did this. The greatest version of this forget forget Ami's thing with Marilyn Manson. Marilyn Manson is being accused by the actress Evan Rachel Wood, very left wing, but just testified on this and some other women of engaging and very sort of bizarre sexual behavior. So we're not just talking about fantasies anymore. And the thing is, these women were in long standing relationships with him. And so when Evan Rachel Wood and I really take her side in this, but she's saying, well, I know we were in a consensual relationship, but it wasn't really consensual because, you know, I was brainwashed.


He manipulated me fine. I totally understand that argument. But that argument doesn't work in the modern liberal framework.


Don't entirely disagree with you guys about this. I think I agree with a fundamental point that you're making, that consent isn't the ultimate definition of morality. Yeah, a consent is. But that doesn't mean that consent isn't a standard. I don't an equal standard for sure. I know that is the only standard that the left applies until somebody on the basis of Violet of violating a standard you have not violated. Right. Right.


I mean, I can understand conservatives saying that's weird and perverse and it's always wrong and it's always wrong.


We're not going to be patronizing businesses with people who on each other's toes, but for liberals for whom literally nothing is off limits so long as it is consensual, there is no there is no basis for counsel.


It's a it's a weak standard. So the point is, they they've if if your standard for judging the morality of a sexual act is something like love, devotion, are you respecting the dignity of the other person? Well, then you don't have to talk about consent at all because that's included in the love, devotion and dignity bit. But you get rid of all that and it all comes down to to to consent. And that's why you have all these you know, all these cases on college campuses.


A woman wakes up the next day. She had consensual sex with a man, but she feels used and cheap and dirty. And she and she was used you know, she was used like an object, but she did consent to it. And the problem is not that she didn't consent. The problem is that it was not sex with dignity and love. But she doesn't have that language. So instead she figures, well, this feels wrong. I didn't really give consent.


So I must I must not give consent even though I did. That's a great point that you know, because it is a great point.


And until you say you're taking Rachel Uwem Woodside, I'm I'm sort of taking her side.


I'm going to take it all the way where I disagree with you. I agree with everything you just said as a moral standard. But I'm not I'm not saying that Marilyn Manson for the for the sort of consensual acts that he's being accused of, it not being consensual is I mean, I'm not I'm not saying the same thing.


I think you're making the same point that Matt is. He's not you're not saying that you take Evan Rachel Woodside in the sense that he has violated some sort of left wing cultural standard or civil law ought to be our civil law ought to be ended that way. I think you're just saying what Matt is saying, which is that violates the world.


I fundamentally, though, object to the idea that you can retroactively remove consent because of regret, because it's no wonder Matt is making it such a perceptive one, which is that people aren't actively it's a lie. In other words, when they say that they're retroactively removing consent, the only moral standard they have is consent. But they know they feel like something wrong just happened to them. So they do not have the language I can express. You know what their morality has been violated other than by retroactively saying that the only value they have was vile because I know it was bad.


And the irony here, though, which is that you have these left wingers grappling at this very traditional definition of consent and liberty, the kind of Aristotelian or classical Christian idea, which is that if you're constantly in invites and sin, you're not actually free ride. The man who sins is a slave to sin. The example I use is the heroin addict. By by the kind of modern leftist standard of liberty. The heroin addict is the freest guy in the world.


Right? As long as he's got a couple of bucks in his pocket, he can shoot up. He can pursue his appetites, whoever he wants. But we all know the heroin addict is the least free person on earth. This is like this is the thing you and I like the show Billions and billions was. And it features this guy who's a prosecutor, who is a masochist, he's a sexual masochist, and it begins and he's, you know, for me, like masochism as sadomasochism is like you flick people with a towel, you know, but this is like sticking cigarets on people.


It's like it's not it's not a joke, you know. But he's in a loving relationship with his wife where they do this thing. And what you're left with is something's wrong with him. Yeah. You know, it's not it's not that they're doing anything illegal and it's not even that they're outside of a loving relationship because for a large period of the show, they're actually in a loving relationship. But something's the matter with them. And it's you know, it's when I look at the guy who's supposed to be a girl who's in the now the Health and Human Services.


But Rachel Levine. Yeah, I think, like, you know, I have nothing but sympathy for this person. Yeah, but something's wrong with them, you know. Right. There's something the matter with them. And I think that, like, we have to be able to talk about that without necessarily moral judgment, but at least with some kind of because right now the argument is, well, you can do whatever you want and do whatever you want.


But the question then is, well, if there's something that's a little wrong, maybe we do need to want to think that two things, but two things can be different ones, which is you can do anything that you consent to as long as you're an adult. But that doesn't make it right. That's right. And this is something that this is something and this is an ethos that is completely foreign to the left. This is where they're running into trouble because the ethos that you can do something wrong, but still it can be wrong.


Yeah. Yeah.


It's something that the left fundamentally does not accept. Right. It's why they're now cracking back against freedom of association and freedom of speech and all individual rights. Right. If you can misuse freedom of speech, that means that freedom of speech should actively be curbed. He misused freedom of association. Freedom of association should should actively be curbed. The right understands that there is a difference between the right to do wrong and the possibility of doing wrong with that. Right.


Right. You can you can abuse a right. But that doesn't vitiate the central right that you're talking about. The left fundamentally does not understand this. So what this creates is this bizarre situation where though something is wrong and they can't explain why it's wrong or which rule it is related. And so they have to post facto create a rule that allows them to bar that thing. Right, because it because they can't accept the idea that somebody could do something wrong.


And also it wouldn't violate any of their chief principles because in essence, they're authoritarian. Right. In essence, everything they don't like ought to be banned. And so if they can't even come up with a good reason in their own head why it ought to be banned, they will come up with a new rule or they will spin the rule so that that thing ought to be banned. That's incredibly dangerous.


My only question for any leftist ever, really, this is what this is what I would ask if I got to ask a question at a Democrat debate. Is there anything that you believe is bad that should not be banned by government now? Is there anything you believe is good that should not be mandated? Right.


You know, it's it's incredibly biblical, even for your half of the Bible. You know, it's incredibly biblical that we talk about why God allows evil. And there's a large body of discussion about this. And one of the ideas is that because he believes that men have to be free and men and women have to be free in order to love God, in order to serve God freely, but that means that you cannot do that. And so that's that's the relationship of power to the people who are less powerful is yes, you have to have the right to do things that are wrong.


But I do think that doesn't mean they're right because it is a pagan religion. Yes.


Yes, I do. I do think that the left is saying something even more radical, which is they're saying I'm not really free. You know, in the case of Evan Rachel Wood or something, she's saying I'm not free to consent for whatever reason, you know, I was manipulated or whatever.


And this actually gets to something the founding fathers talked about. This gets to something that sort of classical Lord Acton talks about, actually classical theories of of liberty, which is to be free. You actually have to be a moral and religious people, in the words of John Adams, or you need to practice the virtues and cultivate that. The point of liberal education is to do this right. It's why we take little kids who are just basically appetite machines and doing everything that's bad for them.


We educate them in their liberty and hopefully they can kind of tame it and be able to master that. But with the left is saying is we don't have that. We we're just appetizer. What was one of the things that that happened just philosophically, that was a really radical shift in sort of how Western thought went, is that it used to be that people perceive natural law in the way that the Catholic Church perceived natural law, which is you can look at the way that nature is constituted and you can derive from that rational rules as to how the world should work and natural rules of virtue as to how you should live your life and that that is embedded in the laws of nature and nature's God, as is the language of the of the Declaration of Independence.


And the there was a shift that happened, particularly in the nineteenth century, from the idea of natural law to nature as God. Yeah, right. As in scientific nature, as if something happened to you and it was natural to you. You had a natural desire then this meant that there's now. Natural desire was justified. You see, this is this you can see this in me to be as sort of greatness as possible in terms of public culture.


If you look at Lady Gaga born this way, right. This is the argument. If it is natural for you to do it is therefore good for you to say, well, that is the precise opposite of what natural law suggests, which is it may be natural for you to have a particular inclination, but the world around you suggests a particular set of rules. And you are supposed to incline yourself toward that particular set of rules. You can no violation of your own right because man was meant to reason.


But the the the this goes back to, I think the another fundamental distinction that the left is is now attempting to conflate. There is an entire editorial in The New York Times today that was kind of fascinating. And it was a complaint about why Western philosophy was so focused on separating man from animals. And if you guys saw this is kind of fascinating. It was it was an entire essay about why do all of Western philosophy is dedicated toward the idea that man is not the same as a squirrel and this is very bad.


We should actually allow man to just be the same as a squirrel because squirrels are natural and squirrels have and human beings are natural. And we should acknowledge we are not just our reason. We are not just our prefrontal cortex. We are all of the elements of us. Right. And Western philosophy was built around the idea that we are not the same as animals, specifically because Western philosophy is built around the idea that man was made for a purpose.


And that purpose was to reason. That purpose was to use our brains in order to seek out God and to seek out the rules to live a virtuous life. And the left has attempted to vitiate that. This is why this is why Darwinian theory did so much damage to religion, not because there's anything that doesn't fit in terms of evolution. Religion can square that circle for sure. But what really finished it was the idea that man is an animal.


And once you treat man as an animal and there's no fixed nature that is evolving. Right.


But but more importantly, that that there is nothing better about the prefrontal cortex than the amygdala. There's nothing there's nothing preferable about being a reasonable person as opposed to being an emotional person or a person who just follows them. And by the way, follows their nature. It's worth pointing out when Woodrow Wilson or sort of first the worst president in American history. Yeah. In the first left, progressive president, he who destroyed the entire country. When he writes about what is progress, what is progressivism, he uses that exotic example.


He says the Constitution is based on the science of Newton, fixed laws, permanent nature, all these sorts of things. But we know that's bunk. We now live in the age of Darwin. I don't think Woodrow Wilson understood Darwin very well anyway, but he says Darwin, nothing's fixed. It's all just kind of a continuum, man. We're not that different. And therefore, throw out all those permanent.


Have we got have we gotten to a point where because I've been thinking about this a lot, have we gotten to a point where. The whole conversation around writes is is just hopeless because we can't get 100 Americans into a room, you ask them what is what does it mean to have a right? What is a human right? And you're not going to get even a 50 percent agreement. Nobody has any idea even what these things are. We don't have the same we don't have the philosophical grounding for it.


Well, that's how we got to the point where this is where maybe we stop. Maybe we as conservatives stop framing our arguments so much around rights and find a different framework for it, like so, for example, abortion and so forth.


For so long, pro lifers would say we have a right to life. And that actually raises a lot of questions like, what do you mean a right to life? A right against whom? Who are you claiming to take it away?


Right, right. Exactly. If you have a right to life, does that mean that you can't be executed and so on?


Maybe a better R word would be responsibility. And so what we should be saying is and I believe we do have a right to life understood a certain way, but maybe we should be saying that a parent has a responsibility to their child. And what that means at a minimum, is that you can't kill your child. You have to provide for them. We all agree with that. When it comes to born children, you let your kids starve to death.


You go to a traditional conservative framing. It's maybe your responsibility. Right?


When I got into this brief Twitter exchange with David French, one of the things I said was you you are endowed by our creator with certain rights and government is instituted among men to ensure those rights. So if those rights are under threat, it doesn't matter where they're under threat from. Government has a right to stop that threat. And many, many people came on this this Twitter thread and said, oh, any argument from God is absurd. Yes, but the problem the problem with that is that's actually the axiom of our civilization is the self-evident truth that doesn't have to be proved.


It only has to be asserted because everything else is built on top of it. You can't remove it. You cannot remove that assumption. And we shouldn't be afraid to make that assumption because it's the.


Well, there's a there's a common argument that the founders consistently made and which they were right about, which is that the other half of right is duty, rights and duties, which is the flip side of your right to life. Is my duty not to kill you. Right. And your right to free speech is my duty not to inhibit your free speech. And we all understood this fundamentally. What we have done is we have dumped the duty and we have kept the rights.


And once you dump the duty, then you can have rights against anyone for anything because you have no duty not to infringe on them.


I suppose they dump the duty as a funny phrase, but it is very bringing up the issue.


I think on that elevated note, I want to do something that we haven't done in a while, and this has been a great conversation. I want to wrap out the show with ten rapid fire questions from our daily Wired.com subscribers. Elysha is going to bring them to us. Here's the rules. What whoever the question is addressed it. They're the only one to make an answer. And it's a and it's a fast, pithy answer. We want to get there.


10 rapid fire questions, Elysha.


All right. The first question goes to Michael Knowles. A daily wire member wants to know they live in a liberal Mecca and they are considering leaving like the Daily Wird did. But should they be considering this? And what do you think their options and decision making should be considering they don't have a job or housing situation set up yet?


Well, you're probably more likely to get a job and a cheaper house and a conservative place. So I think those are both marks actually in favor of coming here. I love it. I wish we came here sooner. I love being in a red state and specifically in Tennessee. All I will have a caveat here is I feel I got a lot out of growing up in left wing places because I learned all the stupidest arguments and it cost me a lot of time and it impelled a lot of bad behavior.


But I feel I came out stronger and wiser for it. That was a constructive process. However, if you're already formed and comfort is your is your goal, come on over, baby. Tennessee is fabulous. All right, this question goes to Matt, people want to know, do you think that the general public or major corporations will ever grow a spine and just say no to the Wolke mob and the Twitter Audy? No, God, I think Matt took that like the instructions a little bit too seriously.


We give them like 280. I think he set it all.


All right, Drew, who would win a cage match between Gina Carano and the entire daily? Why would we be killed?


Are you kidding me? Kill us. In my youth, I might have given her I might have gotten one slug in, but now it's over. You Media Matters.


Is you think Andrew Klavan would have punched a hole in the headlines right themselves.


All right, Jeremy, people want to know what kind of cigars are you guys smoking?


I'm not smoking tonight, so I'm going to take the question over to Mickey Little, Davidov Co.. Chloro not a super duper expensive cigar, but it's got six years age on it from our buddies at our old shop in L.A.. Ben, it is award season, even though it seems a little weird in this age of covid and people want to know, what are your Oscar picks? Well, all the ones that they've talked about for Oscars this year absolutely suck or I haven't seen them.


So I really haven't seen many good movies this year. Run Hide Fight should win all of the other side from aside from run, hide, fight. The unproduced Carano film should obviously also be nominated for next year's Oscar winning. Twenty two. Twenty twenty two. You know, I'm trying to think of anything that's really. Have you guys seen anything of this year.


I'm like I'm really, I'm really trying to all the Oscar movies, it's like call me by your moonlite or some nonsense and no one watch gentleman was it was that this year because that was a good thing, that film Guy Ritchie. OK, I'll have to have really fun with that from. I got nothing. All right, Jeremy, this this question is for you, a daily what I remember wants to know, which actor are you kind of hoping gets canceled next to you?


I have a list I hate to say an answer to that, because it's so terrible. I will say that on the same day that fire Gina Carano was trending fire, Chris Pratt was trending. And for God's sakes, Hollywood, please, please, please send Chris Pratt to us.


I love me some Chris Pratt out of all the Chris. He's the best already. Michael, do you think that we need more conservatives going into politics or going into cultural positions like filmmaking and producing and editing and all those things?


Well, I think the answer is yes. And I also think it's a little bit of a blurry distinction, you know, because obviously politics, the biggest definition of it is what we all do together. But it's a two pronged approach because forget elected politicians, they're always going to be sociopaths running for that. It's the bureaucracy that we lose in the actual administrative state and the entire cultural apparatus. And we just don't have anybody in any of those areas.


So we need to go into both. And both are important. I don't think it's only when the culture and forget about politics and I don't think it's only focus on bureaucratic politics and ignorance and technology and tech and everything. Yeah. Matt, earlier on Twitter, I saw that you retweeted Tommy Larin, she said Trump the Santurce twenty twenty four. You said you agreed with half of the ticket other than other than Ron to the scientist, who would you pick?


Like, what are your top three for the GOP in twenty twenty four?


I don't have a top three. I like Ron Santos. I hate almost all politicians. So for me to even say I like him is is me going out on a limb and I give him that. We've got three years, four years left before. So he could easily disappoint me, but I'll be ready to toss him to the curb if he does. But boy, Ron DeSantis is great. He's the governor of my excellent new state, Florida, like a stud.


And I really feel we don't have time to get into all this, especially rapid fire. But I feel very strongly that. Rhonda Santurce on the top of the ticket is a great idea, tromp on the top of the ticket. I don't know if we want to do all this again in twenty, twenty four. So I hate to interrupt because I said we had to be rapid fire, but can't someone's could would be formidable if she actually decided to make good on her tweet threat.


It is true. It would be fun. It is a true story. I wouldn't want to run against her. I also just to put a little plug in here, I would like to be the first podcast host, you know, so there's other other Republican politicians who could be out there, wouldn't mind doing a podcast, like just throwing that out there, something I'm encouraging people to do.


We all know Michael is hoping that Ben runs so then he can get his radio slot.


That's the way I can actually become the first podcast.


I took this by Drew. Do you plan on double masking?


No, I don't even single mask I. I only wear a mask when I walk into a store and on the front of the store it says you have to have a mask, you have to wear a mask to enter the store. Otherwise I haven't worn a mask since this whole thing. Interest is immune to death.


That happens after you've been dead. If I if I were if I were going to die, I have died already. Let's face it. I just said I know we're not supposed to speak, but but the mask thing I discovered this weekend that when you're wearing a suit jacket, if you wear the neck dator, which is my move and you're worried around your neck, it actually looks like an ascot. There you go. So it's kind of the kind of works like that.


So no. No, I haven't done I haven't done anything that anything that Anthony Foushee says, I do the opposite. That's been my quick note there, by the way. I've heard that. I've heard that. I didn't know Anthony Fouche impersonation the other day. And I heard from a lot of our listeners that you're Anthony Fouche impersonation is the only nice thing I've ever said to Michael Knowles.


I don't know what you're talking about, 10 or 15 years. Maybe they've done it.


Oh, that is good stuff.


We know how Ben feels about Pouchy and the vaccine. But Ben, somebody wants to know if you get the vaccine. Is it OK? I know it's against U.S. law to get a tattoo, but this daily where subscriber wants to know, would you get it tattooed on your arm or somewhere that you got the vaccine? So then you don't have to wear a mask anymore. So here's a baseball game. So here's the to hear you talk about a lot on your blog.


So a couple of things. One, joo's not big in tattoos to do super. Not in the government's giving you tattoo, right? Yes.


I think it was an optional right about that. Sounds to me like I don't mean to put too fine a point on it, but so comfortable and, you know, but yeah, I'm not in favor of as a general liberty matter.


I'm not in favor of the idea that you should be barred from all public places unless you have a vaccine green card. I do think that our public officials are doing us an enormous disservice and continuing to lie to us and say that you can't go back to regular life after you've had the vaccine. It's literally the only tool that we know of right now that is going to give you the kind of safety, particularly if you're older from the disease, that would reduce this to below the risk of the flu.


I mean, if you get these vaccines, these vaccines are 99 percent effective in preventing death. Ninety five percent effective in preventing serious illness and 90 percent effective in preventing transmission. So this bizarre idea that after you get the vaccine, you're going to be still living with the mask. Socially distancing in twenty, twenty two is science. It is bizarre. And it actually encourages people not to get the vaccine because if I'm thirty seven and I'm thinking to myself, OK, well there's there maybe like the risk of getting a little sick from the vaccine, I won't feel so good.


I don't know what the long term effects of the vaccine are. And listen, if I get killed, I'm not going to die anyway. I'm thirty seven and then you tell me, OK, but you can go back to regular life. I might think to myself, OK, that that seems like it's worth the risk. But if you keep telling twenty five year olds that they can't go back to regular life after they get the vaccine, who in their right mind would get the vaccine?


And you have all of these idiots like Foushee saying you maybe we'll never go back to regular life, maybe we'll never do it. Never. And it's like, what are you why? Why? It's I mean, it's a scientific miracle at first of all, that we've been working on big business a lot. Let me just say that the greatest thing in the world is Big Pharma, Big Pharma. They're unbelievable what they do. And the only way they generate it for a disease is less than a year.


It's unbelievable. But but as far as kind of the general concept of the government mandating the vaccine cards to go anywhere, that that raises, I think, serious liberty concerns. I think, frankly, people would start forging them to go over they want anyway.


They're making the same mistake now that they made in March. Again, it's just being replayed because in March, they told everyone, don't wear masks. It's stupid to wear a mask. The surgeon general said people stop wearing masks. And the reason they said that is because they don't want us to run out and they didn't trust us to not run out and buy all the medical masks. And then because they wanted it to go to all the way, not to us.


And so for now, with the vaccine, they're doing the same thing again where they're saying, oh, no, you know, if you get the vaccine, you still have to wear the mask because they don't trust people who aren't vaccinated to not wear the mask because they think that if they if they start allowing people to feel if you were if you get the vaccine to a mask and think everyone is not going to wear they're not trusting that they seem that they seem to think there are three choices here and there are only two.


They think that there is a third choice where everybody gets vaccinated and then doesn't go out and party. There's only two choices. Everybody gets vaccinated and parties and nobody gets vaccinated.


And right there is no third choice where everybody continues to lock down until the end of time, especially after being vaccinated. It's idiotic. Like this is one thing that Israel is doing right with the vaccine that done a lot of things right. But one thing they're doing right, I mean, they have shot in a shot right at the bars. They're telling people like, come and get a shot and we'll give you a free shot. They're encouraging people to actively do this.


And that is eight, which that is a smart thing to say. Smart thing to do. Yeah. All right, Matt, people want to know how is it finally being a daily wire HQ in Nashville and how different is it doing your show from there?


It's pretty nice. I have I have a series of complaints that I hear much of them having to do with the break room. There's a lot of the other day I wanted to grab some half and half and all they had was coconut milk and like soy milk and almond milk, everything except for for real milk.


There's also a lot of seaweed related snacks that I don't just mean L.A. thing, but I think you should take it up with your supervisor.


You will be already registered with H.R., but they said it wasn't a valid complaint. They're not going to be investigating that. Too bad. So sad. Michael Knowles, I heard from a little birdie maybe named Dave Rubin that he's slightly better that the night before The Daily Wire announced their move to Nashville, you claimed that you were staying here in California. I was the one to know.


So there were there were a couple a couple of these nights. Ruben never forgave me for this. Now, in my defense, nobody tells me nothing around here, OK?


In my in my defense, seriously, these guys, they're not telling me to be fair. I didn't want you to come. These days, getting told to stay. But it was funny because I was this was actually we had our truly our farewell dinner. It was you, me, Drew, Adam Carolla. Frager was there. And then we all you got I think you guys already gone at this point. And then we really hightailed it. But I was at Dave's place and he said, you know, Noles, you know, we're going to just take back California and we're you know, we're going to just win back the hearts and minds and get rid of Newsome.


Yeah, man, hell, yeah. We're going to far away and all this stuff. And then like six hours later, like, yo by Dave out there, buddy.


So what you're telling me is that you're a liar who personality mirrors. I cannot believe it or not believe it. Ever think about acting. Yeah.


Is is there a that Gina Carano Rubin and Stan and Califf know you'll be in Florida tomorrow is like you're going to walk outside. We're going to grow old together as Jews in Florida.


And Alysha, having questions if we're together down there, at least like one and a half, we've got more than ten. But I'm just still, like, rolling for them because, you know, you hadn't stopped me.


Last question. All right, last question goes to you, God King, and it kind of piggybacks on you asking if, Michael, if you consider getting an acting, which he hadn't done in a while, unless that's what he's doing every day on his podcast, Lady of the Day.


Well, any of the daily wired talent to be making cameos in the upcoming daily wire entertainment scripted shows would like to know their audience.


All that I'm willing to say on this topic is yes.


But I'm going to say, listen. Be sure to tune in for Ben's first episode of the hit new show Debunked this Friday. We just know it's going to be a hit and series will be available exclusively to daily wire members to you.


So use code debunked, say, twenty five percent off your membership today over a daily Wired.com. Don't miss the opportunity to see Ben brandish facts and logic. In my original draft, I said facts and or logic. Someone who corrected the teleprompter. Thanks again for joining us for The Daily Wire, The Empire Strikes Back Stage. We will see you next time.