
Curry vs. Klay, the Embiid Situation, Atlanta’s New Look and Cleveland’s Ascent With Dave Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry
The Bill Simmons Podcast- 165 views
- 13 Nov 2024
The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by David Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry after the NBA Cup games to discuss Klay Thompson’s return to Golden State in the Warriors’ close win over the Mavericks (2:30), the Hawks upsetting the Celtics while not playing Trae Young, Timberwolves–Trail Blazers, whether it’s time to worry about Minnesota (25:50), 76ers-Knicks, rusty Joel Embiid, a Victor Wembanyama check-in, predictions for when the Cavaliers will lose their first game, and more (53:00)!
Host: Bill Simmons
Guests: David Jacoby and Kirk Goldsberry
Producer: Kyle Crichton
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What's happening? It's Todd McShea, and I'm back with a new home and a new show at The Ringer and Spotify, The McShea Show.
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We're also brought to you by The Ringer podcast Network. Put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. We did Meet the Parents. It was me and Kyle Brandt. I had a great time. You can watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel as well. You can follow the Rewatchables on Twitter. It's at The Rewatchables. We had a dramatic movement in the Rewatchables standings. De Niro, that was the 13th De Niro movie we've done. He moved into a second-place tie with Al Pacino. We've done 13 of each. Cruise is still leading the way at 15. I feel like we're going to get to 20 Cruise movies before everything is said and done. Check that out. You can check out the Bill Simmons YouTube channel as well, where we put clips and videos from this podcast, where we go live on Sunday nights with Cousin Sal during the NFL season. Coming up on this podcast, we taped it late. We wanted to wait for all these NBA Cup games to end. We wanted to see Clay Thompson go back to Golden State. We wanted to see Celtics Hawks. There was a whole bunch of good games, a lot of themes to talk about.
I asked Kirek Goldsbury and Dave Jacobi to stay up late with me, and we're going to talk about a whole bunch of basketball stuff. It's all next. First, our friends from ProDream. All right, we are taping this. It is 9:45 Pacific Time. I had the instinct to wait to watch all these NBA Cup games tonight because I felt like something good was going to happen. I talked Dave Jacobi into staying up super late on the East Coast, and then Kurt Goldsbury staying up late as well in the good state of Texas. It's a little easier for me. But Clay came back to Golden State. We'll start there. There's a bunch of games to cover. The game was awesome. Jacobi, my big takeaway from that game, and we'll get into the staff, the Clay, all that stuff. But that felt like a round two or round three playoff game to me. I wasn't positive that the Warriors maybe were ready to swim in of the pool yet. Despite all the evidence, they've had some good games, they have a good record, but that tonight felt like round two or round three to me. What did you think?
I was so sick of this game by four o'clock this afternoon. It was just the coverage just over. It was just so much, so much Clay returning. And knowing what I know about Clay, I didn't think that he cared that much, but it lived up to all the hype. Even the announcement, I cried very easily. So I got a little emotional. I didn't cry, but I got a little emotional I was about to, I was like, God, I can't believe he's not crying.
And then the start of the game, they give him the ball. You ejaculate fluence, that's what you do.
They give him the ball. The first play, he gets fouled, he goes to the line. But it was up and down for Clay. I felt so connected to him. I was rooting for him so hard. He had an airball at the side of the backboard in the third quarter, and then another airball after that. I was like, Oh, no, this is falling apart. But then he had a nice little flourish in the fourth quarter. The whole day, I was skeptical about this entire experience watching this basketball tonight, and I could not have enjoyed it more.
Kerr, can you even mention Steph Curry, who is back with a capital B doing Steph Curry stuff? I was thinking as he was doing it, I'm going to really miss it when it's gone. A 10 out of 10, I think about the future when we don't have Jokuj and Curry, and it just makes me sad because those are my two favorite day-to-day League pass guys. I'm just trying to appreciate in the moment, but he did it again. It was almost like it was Clay's Night, and there was a little like he had to big boy the night a little bit, it felt like, didn't you?
Yeah, definitely. I think it felt like the Warriors were going to lose that game. I think they were down seven or something, I want to say. Then Stefan And just, yeah, he was like, I'm the prime splash brother right now, and I'm going to take over. And I feel like we're seeing the night-night more often than ever, starting with the Olympics. But also, I think that's two night-nights we've seen this week alone. But this one was especially potent with Clay, who had a pretty good shooting night, a couple of bad ones, like Jacobi said. But still ended up, it was nice to see Clay make six threes. But you're right, Stefan made the most impressive ones when the game was on the line. It was That's awesome.
Well, the cool thing, these are guys that we weren't sure if we may have seen the best of all of them, especially Clay. Drayman last year was like, Is this guy even going to be able to be a functional NBA star for seven months here? And then Curry, even before the Olympics, it's like, All right, are guys passing him now? Is SGA ahead of him? We're doing this Ringer 100 exercise with the voting next week. That was always a tough one to put Curry in because you got to bring the resume and the experience and all the stuff he's done over the years. But he still has to back it up every once in a while. I felt like he did it today. But the clay piece of Itchcobs. As a Celtic fan, We had guys come back, but they were like washed up versions of themselves. Like, Robert Parrish came back. I forget whether he was on Charlotte or Chicago. It was over. He was hanging on for a few more paychecks. It's like, Oh, the chief, man. It's so glad he's doing well. We never had. I don't remember a core guy coming back like this and the emotions that you would feel.
The closest thing I can come to is when Bird was coaching the Pacers, and he would come back as the Pacers' coach. It's like, This sucks. Got Larry Bird on the other side. But you're a natural skeptic. You're an emotional skeptic from time to time. You're a zagger. You tried to zag against Wemby early this season. I loved it. I thought it was great. But you're an emotional guy, too. So this is gamut of emotions for you here.
There was just so much coverage of it. And he literally said, he's like, I'm so locked in. I don't talk to those guys anymore. And I was like, huh? But he's been well chronicled as a little bit of an aloof Zen master goofball, and that just makes him more likable. I'm sure you remember the Grantland days and the Claytheism in all of that. I just felt like he's not the type to get wrapped up in this the way other players would. But when you could tell that he was wrapped up in it, and as was I. As was I. And the game lived up to it. I was very skeptical of this whole... I'm sure we'll talk about the Emirates NBA Cup and then the whole thing. But I was just...
What is Emirates? Is Emirates an airline? What is it?
It's an airline. It's an airline. That They'll take you straight to Abu Dhabi.
Yeah. Great. Okay, good. Good tonight. Yeah.
I was skeptical of the whole thing, the entire thing. But I walk away from tonight being like, I don't even have anything to complain about. I really don't.
It was a great 6 hours. It reminded me of, remember, we would always tease Jalen about somebody that we knew he wasn't cool with. He's like, No, we're cool. We're cool. No, we're fine. I wonder if that's Clay talking about the Warriors. I have no idea how much he talks to those guys. If you read between the lines with all the Warriors stuff, everyone seemed to think it was time for him to move on. Even the Warriors side, it's like, Hey, man, the guy was unhappy last year, which... Kirk, you spent some time with the Spurs. Kawhi, the situation was a little similar. I mean, it was way more acrimonious, but it hit a point where it's like, All right, this doesn't work anymore. It's time for this dude to move on. It seems like everybody's happy, but at the same time, when they're going against each other in a playoff game and Curry's doing the night-night and grabbing the Golden State chairs, it's like, There's a little bit of a fuck you in this.
Fuck you, but they all have captains' hats on while they're saying, Fuck you to him, I guess. Dude, the CBA is a very cruel device. It's not a very nostalgic device. I think this version of it, Bill, is really just so harsh on teams. And it's so punitive for teams that overspend on players that aren't good enough for numbers. And that's what Clay was getting to. And dude, I think, forget tonight just for a second. They're nine and two. They won in Boston. They got beat in Cleveland. They won at Oklahoma City. Then they just beat a Dallas team. They're on a hell of a run here. They look deep. And I'm here to say that Mike Dunlevy and that group, as hard as this choice was, it It looks like they made the right team building choice to get the last maybe chance with Stephen Curry to get an MVP or to compete for a championship. So as hard as it was, I think they made the right call.
Kurt, The lights literally just turned off as he was bumping that point. You saw it at night, but he was on the bench for crunch time, right? That would have been Clay because they needed the defense from that two guard spot. So Melton was out there, and that was the difference. I really respect what they did because they're over and under, I think, before the year. I think it was 43 and a half. Their playing odds or even odds. I don't think any... It just felt like a team in transition that was trying to chug along until January, February to make a trade for a disgruntled superstar was the vibe. But watching them these first three weeks, I don't know, Jekovs, do they feel like... Would you go fringe contender, real contender? Where would you go?
No. No.
Fringe contender.
This feels like good story, good start team. I don't think this is scalable. Oh, the Rabbit. Yeah. This is not like a 55 win, two seed in the West. I just do not see it. I don't see it. I think this is a fast out of the gate team that will come back down to Earth very, very soon.
See, I see it because of the defense. I think that when we get to April, May, defense is what starts to separate people. The defense that they play to me is top five from what I'm watching, especially when you think Minnesota has slipped defensively, the Knicks have slipped defensively. You start going around the league and asking yourself who actually can play defense. How many defenses do you love, Kirk?
No, not many. When they've won the championship, that's been their formula. They're going to be remembered for all the threes. But the defense that Draymond has been running for years is great. In this game, down the stretch bill was a great example. We had Wiggins really guarding Donchis about as well as anybody can. Yeah, welcome back.
Andrew Wiggins, welcome back to the league.
He looks different. And then you have Draymond himself really getting into Gaffard in some of the key moments and turning that seven-point lead into a tie game. And so everybody's going to think of this game. It's like a microcosm. Everybody's going to think of this game for Steph in those late threes. But it was also some major stops by some A plus defenders. I will zag. I think this is for real. I think they could be 14 and 2 in their next... If we wake up in a week or two, they're 14 and 2. If you look at their next five games, that really seems like a contender, assuming Steph and Draymond are able to stay healthy, which at their age is a big question, obviously.
Jacobi, still time. Still time to get on the bandwagon.
I'm off.
They're playing the Banged Up Grizzlies, at Clippers, Home Hawks, at Pelicans, and at your guy, Wemby. That's the next five.
This is the same thing that's happening with the Bucks, is we're going to We're going to think very, very highly of the Warriors in two weeks, and we're going to think that the Bucks have righted the ship in two weeks, but it's just schedule-based. It's not basketball-based. Who's it? Outside of Steph, who can get you a Bucker.
Who can get you a bucket? Jesus, what's happening here? What's happening here? Is it the three kids? Is that why you've become a negative guy? No. You were so positive and happy. Now you're just ground down by fatherhood. Now you're just the negative guy. I'm not telling you.
It's Steph Curry. It's Steph Curry, and he's great.
Yeah, But it's Steph Curry, but it's also Wiggins looking like Wiggins from two, three years ago. It's Draymond, no drama yet from him, looking about as athletic as he's looked in a couple of years. That was the surprise to me because if you had told me they were going to trade him this summer, 2024, I'd have been like, You're right, it's time. Too much drama, too many things have happened. Maybe fresh start, try to get some assets. But now that would be crazy when you watch this guy play now. He's still one of the best five or six defensive players. With that said, he'll probably do something dumb in the next 48 hours. That'll be it. I mean, he almost did it the other day. He did the flailing thing. Jacob, I have a really important question to ask you about the night-night.
Okay.
I don't ask a question.
I'll give you the answer. Okay. I think it needs to be reserved like a Mike Green bang. I think it's being overused. Like a double?
Like a Mike Green double band or Mike Green No, just a bang.
You know what I mean? Probably a double bang, a 1.5 bang. It's being overused and it's losing. It's diluting its effectiveness.
It's being overused because he's winning these major games. He beat Oklahoma City on their home court the other night. He beats Clay. Tonight, he wins the freaking gold medal. He's not out there overusing it.
Can I be the tie-breaking vote? I love it. I think it's great. It's become almost like a wrestling finishing move now. Now I want it. When he went up for 25 seconds, I was like, Do it. Do the night-night. Do it.
It's great. It's also good because it brings out dad vibes. It's like, go to bed, little child. Night-night. It's just very condescending.
Well, and also it brings back memories to the France game, which was a legitimately great American sports moment. Every time he does it, I think of that. But I just feel like LeBron must be furious that he didn't think of this. He's probably fired his His quirk management, whoever the guy is on his team, quirk addition management. It's like, How did you not give me the night night? I would have been doing that in 2013.
You gave me a book. You gave me the godfather. That was supposed to be my thing. You I'm reading.
You guys are supposed to come up with ideas like this for me. Why don't I have the night night?
What I do, I do this weird stomp thing on my chest. It sucks.
Kirk, where do you see Dallas right now in the whole contender hierarchy for you? Because They're a little off, but I think it's mostly because Luka doesn't look like Luka.
These are the exact games that we're not seeing in the Eastern Conference, so it's unfair for me to almost judge them. They didn't really click until the second half of last year, and that's probably generous. It was really February when this team really started to click. With the addition of Clay Thompson, I think they're going to be very good. They're five and six, I think, which is probably not what they want to be. But dude, I'll say I'm not worried about the Dallas Mavericks. I think their defense will come around. I think if you have Luca and Clay and Kyrie, your offense is going to be fine against every team in the league. So I'm not worried. I think this is just an awkward start. And they're playing the kinds of opponents, Bill, that we're not seeing Eastern Conference teams have to play. I was watching some of these Eastern Conference Emirates Cup games this evening. And some of the Some of the basketball wasn't as good, I would say, I noticed. So you think the Emirates Cup was better last year? Maybe it's peaked. I don't know.
I'll tell you what I don't like about the Clay Thompson era in Dallas when he takes 17 shots in a game and Kyrie Irving takes 13. If I'm the other team, I'm like, great. That sounds awesome. So Clay is going to take the second most shots on your team? Fantastic. We'll sign up for that right now. Because I felt like Kyrie could have gone by anybody he wanted in that game tonight. I still think he's terrifying. I still feel like I know there are... Clay's like the new toy. It's like when Jacob's, when we used to play pickup, once upon a time, we'd bring the third person and we'd try to get them involved in the first game. Then we wanted to stay in the court. We went back to what we did. Same thing. Eventually, Clay is going to be, Hey, Clay, stand in the corner and you'll get your eight threes. But the big boys are going to handle this down the stretch, right? That's how this will play out, I would guess.
I think so.
Phil, I have a question for you.
It's really about me. The Emirates NBA Cup.
Is it the NBA Cup presented by Emirates or is it the Emirates NBA Cup?
No, it's the Emirates NBA Cup.
My bad.
Okay. It's additive. It's very core. It is additive. These games would be played anyway a lower level of competition on a less cool-looking court. Then we get a weekend in Vegas with two good games. There's nothing that can poke holes in, logically, about it because it doesn't take anything from me. It gives me extra. But I'm asking you, what is my problem with it?
My son, who is doing homework tonight, like a good boy, came in and he's like, How come the courts are different? I'm like, Oh, it's the NBA Cup. He's There's three games on. He's looking at the courts. He's like, Yeah. What's the point of this? I'm like, What do you mean? He's like, What's the point? I was like, Well, they did it last year. I remember the Lakers one. He was like, Yeah, what's the point of this? I was like, Well, they're five, and then they go to Vegas, and you win, and the coaches get more money, and the players get money. He's like, Doesn't everyone already have money? I'm like, Yeah, but the courts, and So as long as you just don't think what's the point? I think you can allow yourself to have fun. But that said, Kirk, I was so excited the Celtics. I don't love Celtic losses, but I also don't want them to go to Vegas and play the two extra games. So I was like, if they're going to lose to the Hawks in the first day of the NBA Cup, I wasn't shedding tears. Where do you stand on the NBA Cup, Kirk?
I like it. I think we're going to need to see a little bit more. I have to say, if the three of us are confused by the format, that's not a sign. I think the six groups of five teams where point differential matters. I challenge you to name any group and list the teams in it right now. None of us can do that. That's a problem.
Yeah. When you can't name any of the groups in a thing built around the groups, probably a fundamental all the floor.
Yeah, I didn't know the Hawks were in the Celtics group until the game started. So I think some people have said, Hey, maybe we should just do this with the divisions and send a division rep to Vegas, maybe a couple of wild cards. I don't know what the solution is. I like the idea, and I believe old-school Bill Simmons, maybe yellow page, page 2, Bill Simmons actually advocated for an in-season turn in at some point. Listen, I like it. This is you.
You did this, Bill. Give me the credit.
I like it. There's a reason we waited to do the podcast, though, after day one of the NBA Cup. First of all, I was excited. They finally got a name for it because last year we were calling it the IST. Remember? Sounds It sounds like something you get tested for.
You're really concerned about the results.
Yeah, it's like, oh, my God, my IST came back. I might have IST.
I came back Pacers.
There's a reason I had a rash on my balls. I have IST. This year, we have the NBA Cups presented by Emrates.
Emrates.
Emrates. Emrates.
Emrates. Emrates. Emrates.
Here's three things I like. One is, they finally, the NBA Cup I like. Two, I think the courts are fun to either enjoy or complain about. The It's a fantastic score tonight. It looked like a nuclear reactor hit it. Awful. The number one thing, though, is how everyone has to try into the bitter end because of this point differential. There was a moment in that Portland-Mini soda game. They're up 16 with five seconds left. And Jeremy Grant got thrown out of bounds. I thought there was going to be a fight. All the Timberwolves starters were in, they were down 16. They inbounded the ball, they were like, flying down to get a layup. I was like, All right, that's cool. They got guys trying.
Timbs is just running his normal rotation. I was looking at all the starters for the Nixon, and I was like, Oh, this is what he does anyway. Nothing has changed. Nothing has changed there. But again, it's all additive. It's just all additive. I really don't understand what I don't like about it because it just gives us more competitive basketball during a lull in the season.
No, I know what you don't like about it. You don't like contrived. This full weekend. You don't like contrived things. It's fundamentally this is contrived, but I still think it works. What were you going to say, I don't think it should be in Vegas.
And apologies to our friends in Nevada. But I went there. Bill, I remember I saw you in the concourse on the semifinal day. Remember, I think it was a Tuesday, and they had the two semifinals back to back. They clear out the building and bring on another audience. And that's a plot point. I think this should be in Barclays in Madison Square Garden, and then the final should be in Madison Square Garden because it felt so weird to be in Vegas in the middle of the day. None of the team's fans were there. The Pacers fans couldn't make it out because they didn't know they were going there until three days previous or something. So I wonder if it'd be better in New York City where it would be dark outside. If you go to Brooklyn, there are Pacers fans or Bucks fans or whoever else is making these semifinals. They're already in New York. So I think they would be attended better. And I think, yeah, there's just the Vegas during the 2:00 PM tip off on a Tuesday just felt really weird. But that would be one of the things I'd look at for them is bring it to the East Coast where Jacobi is, where there's two great arenas are and tons of basketball fans.
Bring it to Jacobi. That's what you're saying.
I love this. Bring it to Jacobi. Bring it to the East Coast. And by the way, just put another meaningful basketball game in Madison Square Garden every year. What's wrong with that?
See, I think the reason they're not doing that, Kirk, this is all part of the NBA's master plan.
Oh, yeah.
$6 billion expansion team. They're going to make it a process. It's not going to be an auction. It's going to be this is the price. You're going to pay it. And by the way, wink, wink, preferential treatment. If you're building us a new arena in Vegas that's built for basketball only, they build this awesome arena downtown, whoever gets the group. So it's $6 billion for the team, another $2 billion for the arena. And then that is the arena that becomes for the NBA team, for the Aces, for the Summer League, and then for this NBA Cup. And I think that's why it stays in Vegas. I don't think it ever leaves. That would be my guess. Does that make sense?
That makes sense, and it probably is what they're doing. But yeah, it's just- They have Vegas.
Vegas is in their sites as I think they want it almost to be the hub of the league in a lot of ways, it feels like. Lots more to discuss. We're going to take a quick break. Well, the NBA is in full swing, and FanDuel is America's number one sportsbook, as you know. They want you to catch all the action. Right now, FanDuel giving everyone three months of NBA League pass. All you have to do to catch every tip off from BuzzerBeater is place any $5 bet on the NBA. You could watch the Cleveland Cavaliers. Are they ever going to lose? What's going to happen with this team? Is this the 2015 Warriors recreated? Go check them out for yourself. Next time, you get a hunch on who's going to win or how many points a player will score. You can watch your pics come to life live. Just visit fanduel. Com/bs to get three months of NBA League Pass, courtesy of FanDuel. Make every moment more with FanDuel, official sportsbook partner of the NBA. You must be 21 plus in President Select States or 18 plus in President DC. After three-month free trial, the full price of League Pass will be automatically charged monthly.
Cancel anytime. No refunds. Terms, restrictions, and embargoes apply a limit. One pass per customer. See terms at sportsbook. Fanduel. Com. Game problem, call 1-800-Gambler or visit rg-help. Com. So Hawks-Seltics tonight, which was the game of the day in a lot of ways because it was the biggest upset. The Hawks were 16-point underdogs on FanDuel heading into the game, which I I thought was ridiculous because the line was reflective of that Trey Young wasn't playing. And as a Celtic fan, I was like, Crap, Trey Young's not playing. Now they're going to just have long athletic guys, and they're going to actually play defense, and we're not going to be able to just pick on Trey Young with every offensive possession in the last nine minutes of the game. No shots fired at Trey, but shots fired at Trey because that's what Boston would have done. I thought the Hawks stumbled into their team tonight, guys. It's Jalen Johnson, and Risa Shay, and Dyson Daniels, who is now the best defensive swing in the league, I think. If he's not, he's in the conversation for it. It's just this athletic team with two bigs. It doesn't really matter who's in that guard spot.
It could be Bogdanovic when he comes back. But it's a team without Trey that I thought fell into place. What would you think, Jacob's, watching them?
Dyson Daniels had a career night tonight, so it's easy to celebrate him, but he has He's been playing really well all year for the Hawks. Then you mix in Keaton Wallace, and then you start to get this Oklahoma City Thunderlight thing going on where we got a bunch of long, fast defenders that are capable on the offensive side, but it's really hard to get baskets on. You could tell that Daniels was just getting up in Jason Tatum early. Just regular normal actions that he does, just goes around a screen, and Daniels sticks his shoulder in there. He got called for a foul on one, but he was just making Jason Tatum uncomfortable the entire time. I was really enjoying the game, but I was very, very thrown by Quinzner, Sally, Jessie, Raphael classes. I don't know what that was. If you're younger, she used to have a talk show in the afternoon. They used to be really important for some reason. And she always wore red frames. I'm like, Quinzner, what made you do that? What made you do that?
He's been acting super goofy on the sidelines with his looks for two years. Daniels It was in the DeJante-Murray Trade. The trade was Daniels, Nantes, and unprotected 2025 Lakers first, and the worst of either a Pelicans or a Bucks, 2027 first, which now seems a lot more enticing than it did over the summer. But I was watching the game tonight just honestly thinking, Murray versus Daniels, who would I rather have? Especially with the Ringer 100. I just think Daniels is a better asset. What he does is more unusual. I think he's 21 or 22, somebody that never really got a chance to play in the Pelicans because they had so many wings ahead of them. They even had Herb Jones, who did a lot of the same stuff that he does. I think you do it over again. Kirek, just Daniels for Murray feels like a pretty fair trade, not to mention all the other stuff they had. That's one of the better trades anyone's made. It almost makes up for all the shit they gave up for Murray in the first place. Like, Who would you rather have Daniels or Murray?
I think Daniels is the defender that Atlanta thought they were getting with DeJante, but DeJante just never showed up as a defender for them. It didn't work. I love Dyson Daniels. I think he's had freaking six deals three games in a row, Bill. That is like Kawhi Leonard stuff. We don't see those numbers. He's a legitimate defensive player of the year candidate. And you're right. Looking back at that trade, I think it's fair to It's fair to be on the blandest side of the deal at this point because I think Larry Nantes also played very well tonight. He's at least a nice rotation piece.
New Orleans misses him, too.
Yeah, they missed.
He was finishing games for them last year.
He's a great player, a great rotation piece, I should say. I think that Jalen Johnson is the other revelation. This dude had a triple-double tonight. When Trey Young is out there, we don't see these guys get to do this. When Trey Young is out there, we see Trey Young being Trey Young almost every trip down the floor. And so for me, tonight, I thought it was a revelation. I don't know if this is sustainable, but I didn't know Jalen Johnson had that. I didn't know that he could go out and get 10 assists and score the ball and rebound the ball like that, and essentially being a leader. And Dyson Daniels also a really powerful two-way playmaker, which is quirky offensive game. But I agree. I think this, at least this game, makes you think about an Atlanta future without Trey Young in it.
And he has the ball a lot for them. It was a situation where he would come out of the game, and then Jalen Johnson would have the ball a lot. Daniel sometimes. And it almost feels like they're interchangeable when they have Risa Shay out there. It feels like they just have these 6-9 interchangeable, all multi-skilled, good defenders. They know how to play. Jacob, is it time? Do we open the trade machine for Trey Young?
The The Trey machine? Who wants Trey Young?
That's the issue.
Very good question. I was like, what team is Trey Young away from wherever they want to be? Because there is not one. In my mind, there's not a single team that is willing to give up what it takes to bring Trey Young in, just salary-wise, that makes them better. Who is Trey Young away from their goals? Answer that question.
It's an incredible question. I looked through As you know, I'm the Picasso, the Trade Machine. I'm like, I'll find three trades right now. Snap my fingers, it's going to happen. And you start going through and it's like, they probably don't want them. Now they have a point guard. Well, what do they want? It A team like Brooklyn, well, what do they want Trey Young for? They're actually playing well. It's not like they're, what's he going to do for them? Oh, Washington. Would they trade Jordan pool and Picks for Trey Young? Why would you do that? You start going through all the teams. And honestly, the The only team I could find was the Lakers. That was it. No.
But just think about what you're adding to, what you're putting into the fish tank.
Hold on. I think you might have found it, Jacobi.
The Lakers?
Do they like their point guard right now?
So that's where you have to go, where it's D'Angelo Russell expiring. It's Rui. Just to make the contracts work, it's what did they do? That hood Shefino, which they him that his contract's now in expiring. And then they have a couple first. And it's like, here's your chance to get out of the Trey Young business, get some pics, and build the team around Jalen Johnson and Dyson Daniels, which, by the way, I think is a good idea. And by the way, Trey Young is not playing well this year.
But why would the Lakers do that? You're going to call JJ red. I could be like, Oh, we made a trade. Why would the Lakers do that?
They traded for Westbrook. Fair. Why did they do anything?
When you add Trey Young to the team, every other player that is still on team is going to be like, This is going to be hell. Every other player, unless you're just a lob catcher.
Every single person in the locker room- Him and Davis, I like that combo. I'm pushing it because I really want the Lakers to do it. Now, here's my other scenario for the A lifelong Laker fan, Bill Simmons.
Always written for the Lakers.
What if I offered you Trey Young, sixth man? Just staring at me like the heads of two chickens.
How much are you going to pay for the sixth man?
Just Trey Young coming off the bench. 42 million dollars, I think. Yeah. It's like, you know what?
He's a little overpaid, but he's a heat check guy coming off the bench for us. 22 minutes a game. Oh, you're not happy? Too bad. No? No. I don't know. I'm just trying to figure out outs for them because I think they know the team I saw tonight is the team they should be.
Here's what's happening, Bill, is you like the Hawks, and I like the Hawks.
I do. I've watched a lot of Hawks this year.
You want to see this version of the Hawks. You like I did. I did. I did this version of the Hawks better than the Trey Young version. So let me offer this to you.
I like defense-length Hawks. Defense-length Hawks is my Hawks.
Do you know who we offer sixth Man Trey Young to? The fucking Hawks. That's who you offer it to.
That was my point.
Yeah. I thought you were trying to offer to another team? Like, it's like coming off the bench. No, no.
Hey, Treyung, this is going to... John Havacek came off the bench. Kevin McKeel came off the bench. He's like, Who? He's like, Who are these people? Great players have come off the bench. Yeah, the big picture point is you would have thought, We'll find three teams for Treyung, but there's so many point cards now, and everyone's so afraid of taking salary that I don't know what the move is. You could have probably talked New Orleans into it over the summer, but they traded Murray there. I don't know. Is there any other team you could think of? No. Kirk, the Spurs, that's a no-go, right?
Hell no. That's a hell no. I think Jacobi hit on it, and I actually texted a couple of friends around the league just to take their temperature on it. They said there's no market for this guy. I don't know if they're right or wrong, but the number is... Again, the CBA He's not this old CBA. It is brutal if you start overpaying for talent, particularly starting guard. Everybody has a point guard, as we said. I think he's not enchanting anybody around the league. But I do like the idea of him taking a six-man role in Atlanta. I don't know if they can pull that off, but that would be interesting to see come to play.
Because you think Like Brandon Ingram, nobody wanted him all summer. David Griffin basically put him on eBay and everybody said, No, we're good. Then you watch the season, they had some injuries and he's 25 a game, and he's finishing games for them as the crunch time guy. He's the guy with the ball in his hands in the last two minutes. Nobody wanted him over the course of the summer. Nobody wants Aqlivine, who's averaging, I think 23 or 24 a game for the Bulls. It feels like there's this inflection point with prices. I think another one, honestly, is Dame. People, they're like, Milwaukee blows it up. They'll trade Giannis, they'll trade Dame. It's like, Will they trade Dame? Dame is going to make $60 million in two years. Who wants Dame? By the way, watch them play tonight. That's much like the Hawks. They were actually playing defense tonight because he was out of the game. So there might just be some guys that it's just the salary makes it a non-negotiable trade. I don't know. What were you going to say, Jacob?
Well, two things. Number one, and also, let's just not forget just how much Trey Young has the ball in his hands at all times, and it's ineffective without it. So if you put him on a team in an ecosystem, you're basically just signing up for a Luka Donchik-like offense without Luka Donchik-like performance. And one thing we haven't discussed enough is, I don't watch too much college basketball and grind tape. I study up before the draft on the guys, but all we heard about was how bad this draft was, how bad this draft was. I watched Zachary Risa Shay absolutely cook the New York Knicks. Riesasche Thus far, we're like 11 games in, has looked like a number one pick. He really has. And happiness is a function of expectations. My expectations were low enough for all these rookies that Risa Shay has been like, I'm Yeah, that's a piece. That's a piece for 10 years.
Should I have contacted you a month ago when I bought all that property on Risa Shea Island? How said Marcella thought I was kidding?
Well, it's a developing part of France. Everyone talks about Monaco and Nice and Richeset. That's great shots of water. By the way, I forgot to mention this with Dyson Daniels.
Our friends, the NBA University Twitter feed, which is really good. They had deflections per game plus total steals, and they had the leaders. By the way, number two on the list was Nikola Jokić, guy who allegedly can't play defense and yet is always in the right spots touching everything. But he was 4.4, Ananobi is 4.2, Caruso is 4.1. Dyson Daniels was 7.3. He's almost three higher than everyone else in the league. And tonight, I think he had like nine or 10. When you watch him on defense, it's like watching a free safety in football who is just touching everything or almost getting an interception or hitting guys before. I was blown away by him. Now, the key to the game for the Hawks was that Tatum, I don't think Tatum should have played. I think they made a mistake because Yana stepped on his foot in the Bucks game. He didn't have the same burst. I thought he was pretty tentative. Jalen carried them. Jalen and Derek White carried them. But he ate up Tatum. I think if it was Tatum from five days ago, maybe it's not exactly the same. But I don't know, man.
I've been watching this Hawks all year. That was one of my over-under locks. I think, 37 and a half. It was down to 32 and a half. I bet more on it on Boston. I like this Hawks name. One more thing about this whole combo. Guys who made a leap this season, the Hawks have two, Jalen Johnson and Daniels. Lamelo obviously made a leap. Jacobi, you and Vernon talked about that today in a podcast where the highlight of the podcast was Vernon trying to out of Michael Jordan ever had 15 assists in a game and then being unable to Google it for three minutes.
I thought we were going to edit that out.
I'm going to Google right now. It's like, Hold on, we're going to take a break. Come back. I'm still googling it. It just took forever. Why did he just Google Michael Jordan's career game blogs? That should take you five seconds. But anyway, you talked about LaMelo on that pod, how the joy that he's playing with, They Got Killed Tonight. I think Cade is another one that seems like he went a notch up. Kirk, who else do you have that you feel like is just different than last year?
Grady Dick.
I agree.
Grady Dick is leading all sophomore players in scoring, which is insane. He's ahead of Wemby.
He has the ball a lot.
He is like their primary offensive playmaker in some parts of the game. So I did not expect to see that. He had 32 tonight. I think There was the game they should have won against Denver last week, and that dude had 26. This guy, he doesn't look like an NBA player. His face changes color depending on what quarter we're in. And he plays such a weird, aggressive, slashy game. I thought he was going to be more of a spot-up shooter, but he has made a leap. And in Toronto, it looks like they have something there that I didn't expect to have last year.
You You know what Grady Dick, what I like about him? He's the guy who shows up and pick up that you're like, Who the fuck is this guy? And then you start watching him play and he does a 27-foot step back and makes it and starts talking shit. You're like, What's going on with this guy? He's very unusual. I feel like he occupies a specific part of the NBA universe with Tyler Hero, and they're just over on the side. Is there anybody else like that, Jacobes?
The thing about Grady Dick is he didn't do much last year besides wear a cool draft suit and exchange jerseys with Anthony Black. That's what I remember about him. And like, Kurt, I was like, Oh, this guy's a shooter. He'll shoot at 40%. There's always a spot for a tall shooter that can play a little defense. But then you watch the Raptors, which I do from time to time, and he's like, he's getting to the rim. He's finishing with knuckles at the rim, getting past his defender and taking on a second help defender and scoring. I was like, Where was this guy last year? What is this? You know what? I'm going to answer the question we asked Kurt, too, because we were talking about it. R. J. Barrett is taking a little mini leap, too. My question for you, Bill, because you're always astute to point this out, is they're going to score 95 points, right?
Somebody's got to get to 95.
It's going to come from somewhere. So do you think these are actual mini leaps or it's just a function of them being capable NBA players without superstars on their team?
No, the Grady Dick thing looks real to me because it seems like he can create shots for him and other players even in fourth quarters. It doesn't seem fluky to me at all. The R. J. Thing, he would have these little runs even on the next where he would have these little four or five week where it's like, Oh, R. J. Barrett. Oh, did you see these numbers the last 11 games? And then he would dip down. So I don't know if I totally trust him. I think somebody at the Ringer wrote about it this week. I think it was Michael Pina about I think Castle is really interesting. I know he's not a Leap guy because he's a rookie. But I thought that was somebody, if I had to gun to my head who's going to win Rooky of the Year, I probably would have picked him. I didn't even feel good about any of the choices. But It feels like there's a lot of room on the ceiling for him. I feel like he's going to take a leap during the season, potentially. There's a couple of Portland guys that I think are in this combo, too.
The I don't know if you saw it at night. There was some scoot stuff tonight.
There was some Scoot stuff.
There was some Scoot beating guys off the dribble, banging off big bodies in traffic moments. There was some defense from Scoot. There's some chemistry. It seems like the whole bench is rooting for him. Anytime he does anything, there's guys jumping off the bench.
That's not a good sign. My break team does that for me, too. Every time I hit a jump shot, they overcelebrate because I'm so mad. Oh, you think it's almost sad? Yeah. Oh, it's one of those? I'm trying to boost my confidence. It's annoying.
We should talk about the Portland, Minnesota, because a Portland is the weirdest team in the week. They have three legitimate centers. Tonight, Robert Williams was awesome. Aiton didn't play. Klingon comes in. He's really good, too. They have all these swings and guards, and it just seems like it would be a really hard team to coach. But I think they're a little bit better and a little bit friskier than maybe I expected. What really happened is they They beat Minnesota, who's now 6-5. Have we veered into the... Is it time to start worrying about Minnesota stage of the season, Kirk?
Again, I'm going to say no. I think they deserve time to implement their new pieces with Randall and Dante. This is a bad loss, though. You can't lose to that team in the Emirates NBA Cup, of all times, to lose to a bad team. So I think I would have expected them to win this game. I still think the West is loaded. Again, these aren't the kinds of records. If they were playing in the East, they would have a much better record. So they're just playing tougher games.
But they were down 20 to Portland with three minutes left. That's not great.
It's not great. I think Finch is good. I love Ant. I think that Gobert starts you at worst as the fifth-rank defense in the NBA. I think they're going to be fine once they get settled into this season. Again, remember, our Western Conference champion last year didn't look good until February. I think they're going to come around. I think they're just too talented on both ends of the court. They have a good coach and they have depth. I think this is just an awkward start from a group that hasn't really played basketball together very much. I don't know. What do you guys think?
It's too early to really be concerned about it. But if you are Timberwolves fan, and you've been... So I've been watching Julius Randall play basketball for his entire stint on the Knicks. And there's been all-star years and big, huge games and big shots and big moments. But he's a very, very frustrating player to be a fan of. I think that nights like tonight, you see that where it's like you took nine shots, you're 0 for three from three. You just didn't impact the game in any way, shape, or form. When you have someone like Anthony Edwards on the team, every time Randall has the ball, he starts to operate, I'm like, I'd rather have that other guy doing that. Because he does this mid-range, back down, super, super poor broke man, Carmelo, turnaround from the baseline thing. It's very, very frustrating because it's just effective enough that he will keep on doing it. But on a team that also has Anthony Edwards, because the The Knicks didn't have a player that could get his own shot like Randall did, which is why he was so successful there. But if you have Anthony Edwards, just the opportunity cost of his operating is just too great.
We just had an election. I'm not sure if you guys saw. We changed presidents again. It was last week.
Did Emory sponsor? Emory sponsor it?
One of the recurring themes every time you have an election is somebody does the, Are we better off right now than we were four years ago? It's always a good question. If I'm a Timberwolves fan, I'm just fundamentally big picture. I know we're going to start early. These guys have to learn how to play together, all that stuff. Am I better off in mid-November than I was in mid-May? Would be the thing I'd be thinking about. The answer is unequivocally no.
No.
The answer is no. You could say Edwards is a little better and a little more confident in the summer playing with all the stars, the things he learns is a better three-point shooter. I get all that. But the identity of that team, really from January on last year, how good they were defensively, how tough they were to play with their size, just how fucking weird they were night to night, and just that there was nobody else like them. You felt like they could overpower people with their size and their defense and get enough scoring to make it work. Now I watch them, and I don't know what their superpower is other than Edwards. Kirk made the key point. If you have Gobert, you're still going to be one of the best seven defenses, but you're not going to be compared to the 2004 Pistons with the team they have now. I know they have to figure it out, but I thought Dillingham was going to play more for them. He's not playing at all. They kept their fingers crossed with Joe Ingles. That didn't work out. They lost Slo-Mo, who I thought was weirdly valuable for them last year.
Mcdaniels has finally gotten going a little bit for them. He was borderline unplayable before, but they just don't feel special to me. I have them, OKC, Dallas, Denver, Phoenix, Golden State. I think they're below all five of those teams, Kirk. Is that crazy?
I don't think that's crazy. Again, the West is so stacked. Being the fifth or the sixth seed over there is no bad situation. I mean, that's a good team. Whoever's going to land there is probably a pretty good team. I think they had to do something. You can't Gobert and Towns. You just can't do that. That's not what their owner wants, and I hate to be the Cap guy, but part of this move was to get off the Towns deal for all the out years and get some flexibility, maybe get off Randall when he expires and have more flexibility for a team that's built around Anthony Edwards and Rudy Gobert long term with players like Nas Reid and Dante DiVincenzo and Nikhil Alexander-Waaker, who's been awesome. So again, this is the boring character in the NBA saga is the CBA. But I think it explains some of their reasoning for this trade in the first place. But are they better off as a basketball team? No, you're right. They're not. Not right now. But long term, I think within the constraints of the team building apparatus that the league has put on us, they see a path to be a championship team with Anthony Edwards and Rudy Gobert and a bunch of great role players in-depth.
Whether that will work, I don't know. I think they're going to be fine. I think I'd put them at four or five right now, if I had to say, in the West.
I can't get there. I actually had I walked myself into the Randall DiFincenzo part of the trade, Jacob's, before the season. It's like, you know what? No, it's like, the towns go bear thing was always weird. Put him Randall. Randall is a proven 2010 guy. Difincenzo will give them some scoring off the bench. But you're right, we probably should wait until near the All-Star break to really look at this. But they don't seem special to me in the same way anymore. Whereas I watch a team like Houston, and I don't even know if they know who their best five guys are right now, but Houston has moments that remind me of Minnesota last year when they put in the Easton and Thompson combo, and you're just like, holy shit. These guys are fucking destroying the game right now. They just have a lot of options. I wonder, part of me wonders, is that just going to be this year's fun, weird wrinkle to the season, Houston? I don't know if they're going to be as successful as Minnesota was last year, but they remind me of the feeling I got from Minnesota last year. I'm like, Jesus, what is this team?
Don't you feel that way with Houston? You watch them like, what? Jesus, what's going on with this team? In a good way, not a bad way.
I have faith in Emei Doka as a basketball coach, maybe not as a life partner.
But the young nucleus that they have, the young nucleus that they have, they have so many fun players to watch play basketball that I just feel like it's going to filter down.
They've got like a method man stole it from someone else. He said, If you can't get yourself a 10, at least you can sleep with five twos. It feels like they've got like... They're on the honor roll, but they've got seven B minuses. You know what I mean? I just feel like it's going to shape itself out, who their three stars are there to commit to long term and what they build around, because it seems like they've got seven guys that they could potentially build around as the future of their team.
I think Nafu Kaya really enjoyed that analogy. I'm just guessing. He might not even be awake right now. We got to take one more break, couple more things to discuss. All right, a couple more things before we go on this. It's like 3:00 in the morning for Jacob. I don't even know how late it is there. How late is it there? 1:30. 1:30? The night's just there for you.
Bars are open for two and a half more hours.
A former MVP return night. Joel Embiid came back and played the New York Knicks and played for about five minutes and looked like he was going to keel over. Then he left. Disappeared. Was he hurt? Not sure. Came back, played some more. Every time the game stopped, he was keeled over with both hands on his knees, like a 53-year-old guy playing pickup over Thanksgiving. It was pretty brutal. Paul George looked good, Embiid did not, and they lost. I guess this is just how it's going to go as Embiid plays himself into shape. I'm doing air quotes. Philly He's always two and eight. I don't really see how this Emby thing goes over the next, I don't know, six, seven, eight weeks, but most of the scenarios are not good. There's a couple of scenarios where it's three weeks from now, Oh, my God, Embiid. He's got his legs back. He just put up 48 on Orlando. There's a whole bunch of other scenarios where it's like, Yeah, Embiid, they're going to have to shut it down again for a week, or Embiid walked off again, or, Oh, my God, when Embiid plays, the other team has the highest offensive rebounding rate in the league because he just seems like he's anchored in the middle of the pain.
It's not great, Kirk. They just gave him the extension. They built this whole team. They went all in. There was a lot of preseason hype as a possible champion, which I thought was ludicrous. It's not great. What are you seeing?
I saw one of the worst games I've ever seen Joel play today, 2 of 11 in 26 minutes, three rebounds. This is supposed to be one of the most impactful players in the whole league, man. He took it easy, and he is, like you say, playing his way into shape, but also the Sixers are playing their way out of any postseason potential. They're 2 and eight. It's a lot of Kyle Lowry, too, out there because Maxie's hurt. I just don't know how much deeper they can dig. In a normal year, they'd be screwed right now, but the East is so bad below the Cavs and Celtics, there's still time for them to be fine. But what I need to see is more from Joel. He did not look active. He did not look competitive. If that what we're going to get this year or this fall, they're not going to be good, period. Jacobi was texting earlier. He didn't seem very impressed. Is that fair to say, Jacobi?
If you give me 40 seconds to tell a personal story, I play a lot of Golden Tea, as you guys know, and I'm very good at Golden Tea. I've got a profile. I routinely just put up high scores wherever I go. People sometimes crowd around. I've played Bill and beaten Bill every time we played. So natural. One time, the great Conor Schell sent me to Vegas to go to the Golden Tea World Championship. It was there that I found that I'm not good at Golden Tea. I'm just the better than the people that have to be in my proximity. And I watched these men and women play Golden Tea to a level that I was just not ready to be around. And I felt like that's how Joel Embiid was this evening. Because I had much higher expectations for this because he played in the Olympics. There was no reported surgery or injury or anything that serious. He had the suspension which delayed his comeback even further. And I actually saw him in pregame and his arms were skinny. And I was like, Oh, look, he's in shape. But he was me playing professional Golden Tears tonight.
He was not ready for the speed and just the physicality of NBA basketball. I remember one rebound, bounced off the rim, and you watch enough NBA basketball as we do, you're just used to the rhythm of how things work. And it was his rebound. It was a rebound for Joel Embiid. As a Knicks fan, I'm assuming that we're going the other way. And Kat just circled around it, grabbed it and put it back. And I was like, What was that? It was like he wasn't even trying. So this was more of a me problem that I expected so much more from Joel Embiid because he looked like someone who hadn't played for two years and was just coming back and should have come off the bench.
Yeah. So this was something that became a real problem for them in the playoffs, him protecting the boards from offensive rebounders, people crashing, people out hustling them, basically. It was a big reason why the Knicks won that series. Then you go to the Olympics. It was a big reason why Kerr had trouble playing him, even when he was able to score, even against when they played Jokić. Jokić had four fouls, and he put a couple of shots, but he was still giving up the boards. And it just It feels like when you watch Embiid, he can still get the shots that he wants, whether they go in or not, whether he's in shape or not. It just seems like he can bear around, whirl around, he can get positioned near the basket. But what goes are the protecting his own rim when he's on defense and just the speed of just being able to move around where it just seems like he's doing this as guys are flying around him. Then there's a clumsiness that seems to ratchet up when the less in shape he is around the basket where he'll get in position, then he'll just come crashing down.
I don't see it. I really feel like there might have been too many injuries for him to come back for at the that he was at two years from now. This has now become one of the big stories of the year. People are going to go, Well, he's hurt. He's got to play himself back in shape. Well, it's mid-November. The Sixers got eliminated from the playoffs at the end of April. He didn't have to play in the Olympics. He did. I don't know why you can't stay in shape when you're rehabbing. I guess I just don't understand enough about it. If your knee hurts, aren't there still ways to in shape so you don't look like you're completely, completely, completely gassed four minutes into a basketball game? I don't get it.
Can I ask you guys a question? If this were Shaq, right? If you were tracking Shaq's career from Orlando all the way through the end, what era Shaq is 2024 Joel Embiid?
Really important point. And it's something we talked about this summer. This is what happens to big guys. So right now, he's in like, 2000, What he looked like tonight, he's in the 2008 Phoenix range. Yeah. Right?
Yeah, that's what I was going to say, Phoenix era. It's not pretty, but this is what it looks like. I'm sorry.
He's been in the league 11 years. I don't know. If I was a Sixers fan, I'd be losing my mind. I would just be like, How did all of this happen? Why did he play in the Olympics? Why didn't Why don't you tell us what happened with him with his legs before the season started? Why was there all this mystery around it? Is he healthy now? What's wrong with him now? Can you tell us? It just seems like they're, I don't know, being super tight-lipped about everything. Plus, they gave them the extension, which is the other piece of this. They gave him this massive extension, which is very similar to what happened with the Pelicans with Zion. They doubled down on somebody who had never really shown that they could stay healthy for that long. You start doing that. You can't come back from that with the way the cap is now. I don't know, bum me out. I like watching Embiid when he's healthy, and the guy tonight didn't even look close.
There's a version of this where after the All-Star Game, he's back to being MVP Embiid because we've seen peak Embiid be absolutely dominant, just night after night, not just scoring. Do you remember when they used to just give it to him at the nail and run around him? If you backed off him, he would turn and shoot, or he would back you down if he had a mismatch. There was a while where they were just... I think Doc was the coach, where they just give it to him at the foul line, and that's how they started their offense. It was beautiful because he was playmaking, he was shooting, he was going to the rim, he was step backing. Now it just seems like that guy just doesn't exist anymore.
How does it play out for you, Kirk? Because I'll just tell you this, I've been around a long time and we talked about this over and over. It's just with the history of the league, and I was talking about how Blake Griffin was a good example of this. He had a different set of injuries than Embiid did. But at point, there were too many of them, and it passed a point of no return, and you can't come back. And that's what we've seen over and over again. Zion is a really unusual case because it just seems over and over again, it's hamstrings. I was driving around my wife yesterday, and I had Termine and Eddie on. They were talking about him. My wife was like, I don't understand. How do you have chronically bad hamstrings? You just have to stretch and stay hydrated. What's wrong with this guy? And I was like, Honey, we've been asking this for six years. There is no answer.
Why does she listen to Termine and Eddie with you? Spousal abuse.
Better question. It was her listening after five minutes straight of her going, Get these guys off and put music on. I was like, I just want to hear this top part.
I love those guys. To answer your question, I think this is Miami. First of all, Shaq's a better player. But I would put him in that, optimistically, the Miami era Shaq. I think there is-Oh, '06 Shaq.
Okay.
I think there's a chance that he is still capable of turning a corner and getting in shape. So I think that's the optimistic version. I think the pessimistic version is Phoenix Shaq, which is like, we're never going to see what we thought we were used to seeing ever again. So it feels like he has about 30 games to figure this out. And if he doesn't, that contract is going to be an albatross, plain and simple.
Like an all-timer. An all-timer. Yeah. Part of me wonders why they brought him back at all. I don't understand what the upside was of putting him out. It just feels like it would be way easier for him to get hurt worse than whatever upside you get from actually playing him. A couple more things I had for you guys. Oh, this is along the lines of the injuries thing. I heard Jacobi and Vernon before Vernon spent four minutes googling MJ's assist record. You guys were talking about why there are more injuries this year, and I was walking in the streets of LA, and I was like, You know what? I have a take on this, and I'm going to drop it on my podcast tonight. I might have even said this take before. I just think basketball is way faster There's more agro to play. There's more running, there's more stop and start, there's more collisions. It's a completely different sport than it was 40 years ago. Anybody who says differently because they watch on TikTok, the montage of the Badboy Pistons Closelining a couple of guys. I'm telling you, people played way harder now than they did in the '80s and '90s.
Here's how I know. Go on YouTube and watch any of the regular season games from back then. There's not guys chasing out on the side and flying out. There's not these massive collisions over and over again. It was just completely different. It was a lot of post-up stuff, a lot of guys standing around. The fast breaks were nice and smooth and well-orchestrated. It just layups. I just think it's a more a violent sport now, for lack of a better word. That's what I see. Chet Holmer got hurt on a violent collision where he's trying to protect the basket, which, by the way, he does a million times, right? And it finally went wrong on him. But I just think the way the sports played now contributes to it. I don't really think there's another answer. What do you think, Kirk?
Yeah, I think so. I think pace and space are a big part of it. And tonight was a great example. We were texting about the awful Tim Hardaway injury that happened in the Detroit game. That was a very violent play. And then in that same game, I think it was Jaden Ivy got caught on a close out and on his spine. And then you look at all the Pelicans and the ham string injuries. I think those are resulting from the sport being faster and really demanding on athletes, being athletes for a huge amount of time, running up and down side to side in ways that Kevin McKeel never did or Robert Parrish never did. And I think both of those things are a factor. It's still a very physical sport. And 82 games of this is the other thing I would say, is it's not just the game is faster and wider. We're still asking the guys to play 82 of them. And that's a lot. Plus playoffs. Plus potentially the Emirates Cup Championship, that 83rd game for two lucky teams. So I think all All those things lead into it, but you're exactly right.
It's the demand on the bodies in the pace and space era. It's just unprecedented by NBA standards.
Plus, Jacob's not being able to do cocaine anymore like he could in the '70s and '80s. That might have been a factor, too.
I was going to go the other way, they don't drink enough beer. I mean, that's really what it is. The MVP of the league, the undisputed best player in the league is fat, and he doesn't jump, and he doesn't run fast.
He's not fat, he's lumpy.
He never gets hurt. Do you know why he doesn't get hurt? Because he doesn't have fast switch muscles. He doesn't change directions. He doesn't jump in the air and collide against his defender and then double clutch and try to do a 360 and finish with his left hand. I think that I am joking somewhat, but it just speaks to your original point is it's just so much faster and you now have to be an absolute physical freak of nature to play this sport. To play this sport. Then you look at someone like Zion where it's like, Yeah, he's 300 pounds. He could 360 windmill. That's not normal.
That's not normal. It's not normal.
When you watch him play, he goes into his defender and he bumps into his defender, clears space, and finishes with his left hand. It's collision after collision in the air, which leads to things like shit.
If you look at, Bill, one other thing, I was talking to Ron Adams from the Warriors. You remember Ron Adams, their old coach? He told me one time, he's like, Kirk, basketball used to be a two-foot sport, and now it's a one-foot sport. If you look at Jokić's team Jamal Murray, he tore his ACL doing what? A Euro step. That move didn't exist 25 years ago. Dejante Murray tore his. Jonathan Isaac tore his a lot on these one-legged moves. So it used to be two feet in the paint, drop, stepping this, and now it is torque on that one foot drive, and that's very violent on your knees, and I think on your muscles, too. But it was just from a guy that's been in the loop.
That's how Derrick Rose got hurt, by the way, when he Same thing, flying in the basket, remember?
Yeah. One foot, here I go as fast as I can, Euro step, decelerate, put everything on my lower body that I can. And it was just a guy who'd been in the league for 50 years being like, Here's something that's different. And it was so authoritative and simple. But I do think just those fundamental offensive moves, going from the drop step to the Euro step, increased a lot of injury risk for our guys like Jamal Murray.
Not to mention, when you Euro step, you're swinging your elbows through your defender's face. Don't forget that part.
Another thing along what Kirk said. So you look back, as you know, I'll go on eBay at all hours and I'll go on weird auctions. They'll sell the shoes from the '50s, '60s, and '70s. You see the shoes those guys were wearing. Jesus, how the fuck did they play in these? Even when you get to the '80s, see the first The first Air Jordans, even those would be crazy to play in now. Because these guys were flying, Coach, because they were wearing certain equipment that didn't-Drinking beer. You weren't doing Euro step in fucking Converse in 1973 because your knee would have gone the other direction and probably gone in the first row. So you had to be careful with the equipment. And now the equipment is so good. These guys feel like I can go full speed, stop, do two hop steps, then crash into somebody. I don't know. I really genuinely feel like the game is way more violent and faster. But if you mention this to anybody who played in the league in the '70s and '80s, if I said to Daddy Johnson on his show, he'd be so fucking mad because they They just get insulting.
How dare you? We were playing so hard back then. I don't know what to tell you. We have the clips.
I have never missed ESPN Sports Science for a single second before this conversation. I Remember Sports Science? I've never missed that segment in my sports media diet until right now because I want to hear, When he step with his right foot? It's like 14 elephants going 40 miles an hour, and then it turns like an F One car in a turn, around a turn. Then when he steps with his left foot, it is like the force of a gorilla pounding on a rock as hard as it can. Then he turns like a fish avoiding gray.
Something you should bring the show back. Yeah, let's do it. Here's the other point to this combo. The ultimate zag, we've had injuries this whole time, and this year is no different than the year. You go back and you look at all the stars. Our guy Jalen when he was playing, all the guys who got hurt during that era, Grand Hill, Chris Webber. You go on through. A lot of guys either had careers cut short, Tracy McGrady had a ton of knee injuries. You go back to the '80s, like Ralph Samson, who was basically Wembeñama before Wembeñama, and he took a hard fall in the Boston Garden was never the same and had knee injuries after that. We've had injuries all the way through. But to me, I spend more time watching basketball now being scared for the guys than I can ever remember before. There's plays you're watching real-time going, Oh, no. Oh, God. Or even the landing, these three-point shots where they're just constantly landing on someone's feet like Tatum the other day. I don't know. It's a Molotov cocktail of injuries. So one other thing I had. I had a couple other small things for you.
Jacob, this one's just for you. Derek White, Can We All Agree, Shaving His Head, great move, right?
Trey Young, follow suit, bro. I have a different guy for you. You're in the building, Trey Young. Oh, I'll guess who it is.
Okay. Who's the next Eric White?
Sugs.
It's time, Sugs. Wow.
Is that what you're going to say?
Yes.
I knew it. I knew it. I love Sugs so Right in my notes, when does Sugs shave his head? Listen, our friend and colleague here, Kirk Goldsbury, he's a big Monu guy, and Monu just worked it.
Right. That was an Argentinian thing, though.
Well, and he came off the bench, too. So Trey Young could take two things, I guess, from our man Monu.
I think it's time for Sugg. Here's another one I got for you. If you gave David Griffin true serum and you said, Yo, dude, if you had to do it over again, would you have traded Zion last summer, kept Brandon Ingram, and kept Dyson Daniels, and tried to basically sell as high as you possibly could on Zion over doing this whole roller coaster ride another year? Would he say, Yeah, shit, I should have traded him, Kirk?
It's getting close. I will say yes. I will say yes to that because it appears like, Here we are, one more year. And I think for me, this was the breaking point year for Zion. I don't know where Griff is, but Dyson Daniels looks like a real player. Larry Nance, as we mentioned earlier, and by the way, don't forget the Picks. So if you had traded Zion, you would have gotten something probably pretty significant back at that moment. Remember the play in games? He was playing really well, and then he got hurt there, too. Against the Lakers. I'd say yes, because it looks like at this point... The other thing, and I'd say to David Griffin, he's done a great job drafting Herb Jones, Trey Murphy. These are great. These are nice players he's put together there.
Dax Daniels.
Yeah, he could do a great job with whatever they brought back, either in draft assets or talent, I think. So I'd say yes. I think that's a good point. And I wish I wasn't saying yes, because Zion is my favorite NBA player to watch when he's out there being Zion and doing all those, after mentioned dangerous moves, putting more torque on his one leg than anybody else in human history ever has. Could you imagine the sports science segment on that, Jacobi?
And now your favorite player is Scoot Hinnerson. My son said today we're talking about Zion, and he was like, Thank God we didn't get those boxes because the Zion rookie, the prison boxes, and they were super high because there was so much Zion hype. And I was telling him, We got to wait. The price are too high. They'll dip down. Then Zion, a couple of good things happened. They dipped up, and we just forgot about it. Now I said to him, Probably the same thing is going to happen in Wembiyama. Just be relieved we never got the boxes. I'm just feeding Jacobi.
This is unnecessary.
Jacobi, are you back in? Because you had one good game against Utah.
Two good games.
Sacramento. Here's the thing.
My criticism of the Victor Luzbana-Shott diet started two weeks ago, and now it's become mainstream. It's like your favorite band that blew up. So now it's like everyone's doing it. So now it's like, All right, everybody have fun. You can play with my toys. I'll make new toys. That's how I feel.
Kirk, do you like Jacobi's theory that Wemby is basically a kid who's been homeschooled and given candy for dinner every night and has never been scoled or yelled at or even had a hand wrist?
No, I do not like this theory at all. I think he remains the best prospect in pro basketball. I will meet him halfway, though. If there's something that really irritates me about the young man's development, it's his jump shot and his tendency to lean on it too much when it's more Westbrook than Curry. I feel like nobody can stop this guy inside of eight feet that I've seen. I feel like he needs to do that and the team needs to help him get there more often. He's shooting 25% from three. His jump shot in the mid-range is one of the worst in the league, efficiency-wise. This is not unusual for a young potential superstar, but it's frustrating when that young potential superstar has the potential to be the most dominant interior player of his era. And so every time we're spending more and more time away from the basket, we're not getting towards his true calling, which is to be, I think, the best player in the hoop, Bill.
Kirk, I want to ask you a question, right? Because I know you know this more than almost anybody on the planet. We always talk about what he's shooting from three, what percentage he is or what he did that night, right? But you know better than anybody on the planet that not all three pointers are created equal. You know what I mean? There's a difference between a catch and shoot, swing, swing, corner three when you're buck naked and when you're seven foot six and you're taking stepbacks with a point guard on you, or you're shooting from 28 feet instead of toes on the line. It's not just that he's, thus far this season, a poor three-point shooter, albeit he has shot well last two games. It's not what you do, it's how you do it. It's the Threes that he's getting that I find so frustrating as well. It's like, you're seven foot six. Why are you taking Dame Lillard type threes? Why?
Particularly in a team environment where those shots were outlawed for years when they were put guys on the roster that probably could do that. So we were the last team to let our players dribble into threes when I was around there. So I agree with this. And again, his shot diet is something that needs to be talked about and improved and optimized. And for me, yeah, you're right. This dude should probably start with catch and shoot threes and shots near the basketball hoop. These off the dribble Euro step, when they work, it looks great when his step back works, I should say. But But it doesn't work enough, and it's hurting the team's offensive efficiency overall. I think this team, if it wants to compete, they need to optimize their star player.
In the rewatchables, we subscribe to a one for them, one for them, one for them, one for them, one for us philosophy. Jacobi benefited from one from us when we did Project X. Just the definition of a one for us. I think with Wemby, they should have a one for them, one for us philosophy. It's like, you can shoot that three every once in a while, but that's going to be a one for you. We need to near the basket. How about little eight footers? How about that little baseline bank shot you have? How about studying some Kareem skyhook stuff? Because guess what? Nobody will ever be able to block it from seven feet. Just vacillate between those two worlds. I never think... He should never shoot more than one-third of his shots should be threes. If it's anything higher than that, all it does is take them away from around the basket of the rebounding. I've talked about this stuff a million times. Last thing I have for you, Jacob's. Jovich today had the worst in-game broken nose I've seen in a while. Did you see it?
No, I did not see it. But I'm a broken nose specialist.
He was a collided head, and he was walking off, and His nose was like, he was doing his... It was one of those. Felt bad. Zadie, you had... How many broken noses playing hoops?
I've had a lot of broken noses, not all of them playing hoops, but most of them playing hoops. It's getting to the point where my nose is just a collection of cartilage that doesn't speak to each other anymore. So when I break it playing hoops, I stop the game for 15 seconds and people are like, Your nose is broken. I was like, no, it was like that before. And I just continued to play. I just continue to play.
Kirk, any last predictions before we go? Nba season through three weeks?
When do the Cavs lose? When did the Cavs lose is the right one to finish on. I think this team goes at least 16-0 if you look at their schedule. I don't want to jinks it, but if I'm just playing the numbers, I think they can go. I think they play your team in Boston coming up, right?
Yeah, that's sweet.
Yeah, I think that's going to be one of the big games.
Add Philly tomorrow. Home Chicago, home Charlotte, and then they'd be going for 16-0 against Boston.
I think only one team has done more than 15-0, and that was the Warriors that did 24-0, Grantland era, Warriors, Durant. No, it was right after Grantland, it was 15, 60 warriors.
Some similarities to that Warriors team that I know a bunch of people have brought up, but new coach comes in, there's good nucleus in place. They were pretty good last year, but not... Something was missing, and now it all fell into place.
Incredible shooting, jump shooting, and then high defensive potential with their big. So I like that analogy. I'm not ready to give them more of your status.
No, but you know what I mean. Yeah, nobody's going to... But that 2015 Warriors team was 30 to 1 to win the title before the year and ended up going 67 and 15. Even as they were winning playoff rounds, people were like, Can you win a title this way? I feel like we'll be doing that with the Cavs as they keep going. What were you saying, Jacob?
Do you think it would be good for the Cavs to lose a game just to end this? I do.
Interesting. To me, it's like they have a real chance if Porzingis is out until mid-December range that they could make a real run trying to be the one seed, which I think is incredibly valuable. As you know, I care about having a game seven at home. It's one of my crazy takes that I've planted my flag on over the years. Game seven is at home, good. But I think they could do it because this Celtics team, it's pretty vulnerable game to game. I went to the Brooklyn game Friday that they almost lost. They ended up beating in Brooklyn and OT. Atlanta tonight, they They don't have a lot of size. You can get to the rim on them without Porzingas and with Horford at this different point in his career where they're just trying to keep them ready for April, May, June. They're not as deep as I think people seem to think they are. They're not the same team as last year, at least right now. They will be. But I think Cleveland could get some distance on them. That's going to be a tough spot for the Celtics next week if they're not 100% healthy because this Cavs team I'm watching, they seem incredibly, incredibly confident in who they are and they really have good chemistry.
They've figured out the Mitchell, Garland, end of the game stuff, at least so far. I think Mitchell's taken... He's given up real shots this season. Oh, yeah.
Garland is They're a crunch time guy. Donovan is their main time guy, and then Degos to Garland for crunch time, and it's been great. And Evan Mobile has been better. Ty Jerome has been great.
They're finding some- Classic, right? He was on the Warriors a couple of years ago, and Kerr loved him. And then Atkinson just fouled it away and then took him to Cleveland. He's like a six-man-of-the-year candidate.
That's the spot they need to really get production from, is the wing in between their incredible front court and their incredible backcourt. Can they find some Dean Wade magic, some Karras Levert magic, some Aqoro magic, and then Ty Jerome. So they found some depth there. I think they're the real deal. I'm not ready to say they They're going to beat your Celtics, but I could definitely see them being undefeated going into that game. And it's in Boston, right, Bill? I think that game next week.
It's in Boston. I'm taking the Cavs completely seriously. I think they're legit good. I don't think there's any bullshit with this. I think it's real.
It has me starting to look back at the Kenny Atkinson Brooklyn Nets era because there were some teams. Because that like... The Jared Allen was there, Karis Lever. They're now currently on the Cavs. They had the best De Russell ever. He's never going to return to that. They had Jared Dudley, and they had these bench celebrations. They felt like a true great chemistry, good vibes, young, vibrant team that was coming together and winning games and going to the playoffs, which enticed the Kyrie, KD invasion, which ended that era. I'm starting to look back on it and I'm being like, huh?
I always thought they were a really good coach.
Maybe they're a really good coach. Yeah, that's what I was like, Maybe they're a really good Coach that tried to upgrade through superstars, and it completely backfired for a million different reasons. But you think back at Kenny Atkinson as a Nets head coach, and they're not going to build a statue outside of Barclays. But when you revisit those years, you can see the seeds of this success.
What do you think they're over and under as right now for wins for the season?
If you had to guess.
58.5. What do you think it is, Jacob's?
I'm going to go 62.
62? That's 55. They're defeated. 55.5 right now.
55.5. What's Boston?
Boston's off because of, I think because they played tonight. Nobody that played tonight is in there. What do you think the Lakers are?
43 and a half.
46 and a half. That's the thing. There's still some value with some of this stuff.
Get Bronnie back. They're going to run.
Well, Bronnie, a couple of G League games, you could probably help him. All right, Kurt Goldsbury, Dave Jacobi. It was a Grantland Reunion podcast. Great to see you guys. Thanks for staying up with me tonight. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Goldsbury and Jacobi. Thanks to Steve Cerruti and Kyle Creighton as well. Don't forget, you can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. I will see you on Thursday.
On the way, so I never said I don't have a few years with them.
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