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Tonight's episode of the businessman's podcast on the Ringer podcast network is brought to you by Spotify, which offers the best podcast listening experience around you can change speeds. I made one point to guy. You can go discover new podcasts, the biggest podcast, hottest trending podcast, podcasts, separated by genres, whatever you want. Spotify has it all. Listen to your music on Spotify. Listen to podcasts on Spotify as well. We're also brought to you by Fandor, where we have a new contest every day.

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They're playoff games. It's called the Ultimate Hoop Springer Contest five, our entry fee per contest.

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If you win that day, you get a ticket to the leaderboard series during the NBA finals, where all the winners will compete for a share of fifth cash, ring or swag and to be deemed the sole survivor, the ultimate hoops ringer. I thought I was going to win day one. And then my team tailed off, pausing. It got kicked up, still recovering from that one.

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Learn more and enter at Fandor Dotcom slash hoops ringer. You can enter every day right before the game start. Age and location restrictions do apply. Were also brought to you by. The Ringer podcast network, where we launched a couple new podcast recently, including 10 questions with Kyle Brandt. You can check out the Ringer NBA show where we are trying to react to as many of these games as possible. And and that's it coming up. We taped a lottery show today, earlier today, it was me, Raja Bell, Kevin O'Connor and Ryan Rosillo, and we went on about an hour before the lottery.

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We broke down all the playoff stuff and then went right to the lottery as it was happening and tried to decipher what it meant, what it meant for go on stage cargo and things like that. So that is happening. And then the wringers nor Pinciotti comes on just to talk about the upcoming NFL season.

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A couple of things to watch and then somehow end up into a Taylor Swift conversation because she is a Major Taylor file. So that is the podcast for today.

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I left a little bit open here at the top because just in case this Lakers Blazers game was going to be exciting. But as you probably know by now, not that excited. The Lakers showed up. They took care of business. It's a sweep. We're heading back to Portland for game three. Oh, no, we're not heading back anywhere.

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It's just in the bubble. The things to watch, I guess, for this weekend, we have, you know, Utah, Denver. I think Utah's better. Vegas doesn't seem to agree that Denver is favored by one and a half points against Utah in game three. And I just think at gunpoint, I think Utah just has a better team. The Celtics are only favored by five against Philly. I think that series is over. I thought Philly rolled over Clippers.

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Dallas is the magical series for for Friday and just every two days from this point on, because Dallas is for real. They at least have a really good strategy to go against the Clippers, in my opinion, they're going to bomb threes, they're going to keep shooters out there as much as they can. And they're hoping that this is a best player in the series series that look as the best player. I think they caught a lot of people's attention in game two.

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And to be honest, the Clippers just don't look like the Clippers yet. Harold's just coming back. Their guards, you know, barely miss game two. Lou Williams doesn't seem like he's Lou Williams yet. And they just this is the perfect round to catch them, you know, and if they did catch them, they'd be playing the winner of Utah. Denver next round, obviously, would be a massive upset if Dallas won. But whoever wins this series gets you to Denver next round.

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I think whoever wins this Clippers match series is making the Western Finals. So and then on the other end of Houston, who's going to beat OKC?

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It looks like it just looks like they're peaking at the right time suddenly. And then they're going to have one of the most bizarre series of all time, if that plays out that way against the Lakers, assuming the Lakers win when you have these small ball crazy shooting. Sixty percent of threes of all their shots, rockets going against this big, clumsy Laker team. And it's a classic weirdo series, I have no idea what to expect. The East seems like it's it's we kind of know where we're headed.

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We're headed for Boston and Toronto and we're headed for Miami, Milwaukee, which is going to be a barnburner.

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I think these round two series are going to be really, really great. But we've got to get through round one once. So stay tuned for that. Roselyn, I'll be talking about all that stuff on Sunday night. Coming up, our lottery show and then North Pinciotti in the NFL. First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

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All right, here we go. Latricia. This is, I think, the fourth year we've done it. And if you need to know anything about 2020, I think you could just see how we're doing it this year. It's all on Zoome. We have Raja Bell here. We have Ryan Rosillo here and from laughing It's Kevin O'Connor Brick Factory.

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I don't know what time is your set today. 830. OK, great.

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Well we're, we were supposed to go on at five o'clock. Pithy. But then McKay decided to just kill Orlando, so we just said, screw it, we'll go up early. There's nothing to watch here. Let's talk playoffs first. Rajai biggest thing that's jumped out to you here the first four days.

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How much better? I think the Dallas looks than I thought they were going to look. You know, I I said I said on Monday that I didn't think defensively they were going to be able to to get enough stops. But I had discounted the fact that no one's actually playing defense in the bubble except for maybe Houston. So, like in in an offense only type of environment, they're they're perfect. Rosillo, why aren't people playing defense in the bubble?

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Well, I would add I would add Turano to that group that was playing defense.

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OK, I think I think what we've seen is that, you know, we it does remind me of teams of the past have done nothing who have talent and go, don't worry about it. We got this. They're like, what are we giving you the benefit of the doubt for? Like, I don't mind giving the Warriors the benefit of the doubt in the defense slips a little. I don't mind giving the bulls the benefit of the doubt when it's the third season.

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They're trying to get this done. But the Clippers as a group hadn't done anything.

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And you know what? We didn't know what the roster we didn't know what the rotation was going to look like. We just really like their two best players. And that hasn't looked right. The Lakers are the worst shooting team in the bubble other than the Wizards. And they told us, don't worry about it, we're fine. And I think you're going to see some changes that rotation.

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And you could even say for Milwaukee, Bud tried a bunch of different lineups.

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And I think that bit him in the ass a bit in game one, not game two.

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But what what I liked was that there were certain teams that felt like they were taking the lineup in rotation and effort level seriously. And I think some of the best teams were the ones that were already over it before they got there.

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I'm wounded you didn't throw the Celtics into the good defense group, I thought we thought we had some moments that I figured you would take Milton and I know I just expected that you would bring it up at some point.

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So I think that one there are well, there are certain teams that are defending, but I also feel like every team's just shoot the ball at a high level. I mean, I'm curious, Roger, I like playing in the NBA. How much do you feel like being in a neutral site without any travel, you know, without fans as actually helping all these corner three three point shooting percentages skyrocket? Yeah, no. All jokes aside, I mean, it is definitely easier to shoot the ball when you don't have all the distractions of being in a in a gym with all the distractions that can be in an NBA gym like you're just in there, groovin it all your teammates, you can hear all the encouragement and stuff.

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You know, it's just a different vibe than being in a gym with all the distractions, let alone the travel and all the other things that go into NBA, you know, game day. But being in a relatively sterile gym is what you do. That's what you grow up doing. It's where you get all your practice reps. And so you're naturally going to shoot it better, you know, and that kind of environment.

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Do you think at least part of it is these guys can't do anything other than focus on basketball and take care of themselves and get a good night's sleep, not deal with the media? They're not out till 5:00 in the morning like we're getting the best versions of them. I would say from a mental standpoint, potentially right now.

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Yeah, NBA guys go to five in the morning and, you know, they're like, yeah, I mean, there's something to all of that.

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Like when you you know, when you have nothing to focus on except hoop and you eliminate distraction. Yeah. There's a case to be made for you getting a better product. And I kind of felt like going into the bubble. Plus, you know, the other thing is, is a lot of guys had a lot of rest. And when you're talking about shooting the ball and scoring the ball, fatigue plays a role when you get 60, 70 games in.

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And yeah, you know, I think you see some fresher legs. And it's it's it's kind of manifesting itself in in better scoring, better offensive play.

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At least the notes about Rosillo. I feel like the brakes been good for you. I feel like you're at a high level too. I don't know.

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I've been in self isolation for six months. Nobody's taking the series focused on basketball. People know the deal. I mean, post-paid is thinking about just sending me clothing.

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But I, I would I when I kind of can't wait for though is that we know Ambrosiano is better than any of us, but it's also human nature thing is that if you give people excuses, they're going to use them and whoever gets eliminated is going to blame the time off. Whoever gets eliminated early is going to say it's because of the bubble. And I mean, it's impossible to be as prepared as you could be for this. There's it's impossible to be as rested as you guys have all mentioned.

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You're not on a flight for over three plus months.

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All you're doing is basketball with that break. And I still I know what's going to happen. I can't wait to see who the person is that writes it. But whatever good team goes out earlier and then they're beat writer, who's also the PR person, which is a huge problem that I have as I make these little remarks.

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But it's going to be like, you know, they got real tired. They're around game six, game seven. And you're like, if you got tired that time, then what's your point of even being a pro athlete? Because it's never been, as you guys have said, you've never been in a better situation for this. So it'll be funny because I haven't disagreed with anything you said. I just know that that storyline is going to come for a team that goes in a lot earlier than they thought they would.

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Well, it's almost like the quarantine we've talked about that says if your relationship is in good. You know, Jack, all of us know people in that and in our circles who, like, they broke up. Yeah, quarantine got them where you just you're together all day.

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And I think I think the Sixers are going to be the the basketball exhibit that you have in Corinth. You got him KFC. Take the floor there at Larfleeze. Give us your super disappointed. Can't believe it. Sixers take just sucks man.

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It just sucks. You got Joel Embiid who you know for all his faults you know he's tired at the end of the games. It still feels like when you're playing around this guy some of the talent that they have the product should be way better than it is. Tobias Harris somebody they're paying thirty million dollars putting out the low numbers that he is Al Horford fallen off a cliff. It's just disappointing man and man. Brett Brown's inability to adjust game to game just season after season continues just to disappoint.

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And and you know, I ranted about this yesterday on Twitter. I just feel bad for Sixers fans because it's like, what do you do next? After you lose the Boston, they're going to lose. What do you do after this? Like who's taken on that Harris deal or that Horford deal. Nobody can be there. Simmons What do you do.

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What's asked Roger, the only guy who worked for a team out of the four of the South oversell and I feel like we're both like we could have done that suggest nobody's asked us yet to actually work for it.

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So you have, you have two of the five most untradeable contracts.

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In my opinion. Harris is in year one of one hundred and eighty million dollar deal. Horford has three years left I think for almost twenty eight twenty nine million a year and just over the last two years because this started last year in Boston athletically looks like he's moving into a different phase of his career. And I don't know how you dump either of those guys unless you're taking somebody else's problems back. What would you do? Where would you start?

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You know, I wouldn't even start with those two. I would start with, like, really trying to figure out. If I'm sure that Ben Simmons and Joel Embiid can work together, like I have to sort that out and if I'm in the Sixers front office personally, the answer is no. Like, I don't think that that's a good marriage. I don't think that's a good way to to build a team for both of those guys individually. Like I think that you have to pick one and then tie your tie your horse to to that player.

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So from there and only from there can I start to try to figure out, like, if I can package something and get off of one of those contracts, which, you know, you just alluded to the fact it's going to be almost impossible. But I think I start a step before that. Like, I have to figure out if Embiid and Simmons can play together going forward and if that's the way I want to build my team around the duo and I really don't think I would if I were the Sixers, I think.

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Is there anybody on this four person zoom right now who thinks that those guys should stay together long term? Because I am in the no camp.

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There are at least some numbers. If you track like the two man offensive per 100 possessions, it used to be atrocious and then it was bad and then it was like almost acceptable.

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But I still felt like whenever I would track kind of the closing minutes of of a very tight game.

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And it's not even a criticism either one of those guys, they're just the worst pairing, like, hey, what's a perfect center? OK, well it's this guy Embiid. All right, well what's this unbelievably modern, you know guy that could could play all five positions defensively but probably shouldn't initiate in space off a big because he can't shoot but maybe he could drive like Giannis and kick out to other people. Oh this guy Ben Simmons. All right.

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Well how would they fit you. Oh that wouldn't really work. They, they kind of duplicate some of the stuff that they both do. You know, it's not look they're probably going to stay together because you're going to give a new chance, a coach to try to figure this thing out. And the other part of it is, what do you trade that you actually like, that you think makes you better, which you always have to worry about this stuff.

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But, you know, the Brett the Brett I don't know if Casey was tracking this.

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I think when Boston went zone a couple of times just to mess with Philly, which is a really good thing to do against Philly whenever you want to get him thrown off that they're terrible. Green Zone. Miami did it to him a ton.

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I think Brett was like, hey, do you guys want to try to forget the red zone stuff? And I was like, are they only doing this because the Celtics did it a couple of minutes before? And that's just kind of what it felt like.

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And, you know, I don't get mad at Brett for not ripping the guy's effort, but their effort was really bad yesterday. And they had two specific plays. And I'll end the rant here.

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But they go full court, press the start of the fourth quarter, be like, all right, guys, let's go. And they gave up two offensive rebounds back to back possessions to Kanter And you go All right cool cool full court press You didn't box out the big. It was so bizarre to watch the putting Shake Kemba. Just keep it in mind, not when you have like Josh Richardson, the teams that have really succeeded against Kemba usually put like the tall athletic guy on them so they can at least challenge a shot.

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Fillies like we're not doing that. And they were like Hey Joel just hang out under the basket, just pretend this is like a pickup game. But it's the third hour of the pickup game where you're just trying to get through the rest of the day. Don't come out, don't jump out on anybody. It was bizarre to watch KFC. What would you do if you if if if you're running Philly?

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I mean, I'm with Georgia, I'm with Rajar that that Embiid Simmons core is probably what you need to break up. The toughest decision is probably the right decision for Philly because you can also get the greatest return for Embiid or Simmons to reshuffle the deck however you want to.

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My I mean my understanding is they're not going to break those guys up. Like Ryan said, they're probably going to get this next coaching opportunity and see how things work out and I think it can work with a meet. And Simmons, they just took Toronto the Champions last year to Game seven and was on a four bounce shot by Kawhi. They've had success with those two guys. Despite their overlapping weaknesses. They can still work together, but I'm not so sure to Roger's point that they can reach the heights that they should with those types of talents.

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And the best, best ideal scenario for those guys is probably some type of trade, like whether it's Embiid or Simmons is finding some type of ball handling weapon at wing or Guard who can actually run high, pick and roll with you and they give you a trade.

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Yeah, give it to me. I've been thinking about this one, I'm sure it's been on the Internet. I'm saying I invented it. If there's a trade with Bill and Simmons in it. It does a lot of things for each team for the kind of point that each team is in, right. The big thing is just going to be a better fit with Embiid for a variety of reasons. But he's also somebody who can initiate and at least create shots for other people off of his offense.

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And then if you're watching, you're rebooting anyway. You're a couple of years away. You're putting somebody that I think we all think is one of the best 15 guys in the league in a situation to kind of quote unquote, have his own team, yes or no on that one.

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I'm not going to say no. I like it. I think if you're going to go from from Philly's perspective, though, you're still going to need the primary ball handler to tie those two guys together. They're both guys. Well, Bradley Beal gets his own. I think he's in more of a comfortable space when you have someone that can create a little bit, too and can kind of facilitate offense. So I think you need to pair them with a good guard.

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But I like it because I think Ben needs Ben specifically needs to be on a team where they can explore everything that he can do, like let's really get into who he is. Ryan kind of talked about like this new wave, a player that can do a lot of things.

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Well, you know, I don't think you've seen all that he can do, like, I think totally put it in his hands and let him go, you know, and then you build around it. Once you figure out what he is, you have more chance for success. So I like it. You just got to give me a point guard to go with him in Philly. How about Mike Conley, little Mike Conley, Al Horford.

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That's probably not enough for some big contract for Big Guy. Oh you mean.

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You mean get Conley just in for Horford.

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Yeah. You're just saying hey man he's making a lot of money. I don't know if he's making money. What do you think.

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So maybe if you also decided to flip Gobert elsewhere and they totally reshuffled what they want they could bring him back past now you know I thought that's pretty cool. I did this. I love it.

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I would think Utah would say we had cheaper younger. Horford His name was Derrick Favors and we finally had to move on. Yeah.

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We couldn't figure out what to do with them. Yeah I mean look better pick Horford was a hell of a lot better than than Derrick Favors ever was, but the Horford stuff is so bad now.

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I think if there's one positive from all of this which Sixers fans you know have to deal with this and I'm sure there have been really annoyed when I think of Embiid start to his story don't play two years he's been healthier than I thought he would be. Oh inches which is a huge plus. So there's value there, even though I would imagine more front offices are probably still a little worried of.

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Is this guy ever condition. Right. Am I in my staring at some sort of problem where Simmons I'm telling you teams were done with him about a year and a half ago. Maybe it felt like teams had just totally given up on him. You know, those playoff games where he had four shot attempts?

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I had heard some rumors about different offers that were out there where you thought at the time, my gosh, Philly should have just said yes to that.

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And whatever the issues are, I think his value around the league is a lot higher because of some of the stuff that we've seen from him. And just the way that I think teams have more of an open mind of him initiating more of their stuff. If he ever ends up getting traded, it'd be kind of the guy.

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Simmons has gotten better, too. I mean, this season I feel like he made a leap as an atom finisher unassisted around the basket. I believe he shot around sixty seven percent on unassisted shots around the rim in the half court. And that's an elite number for a guy who previously both in college and early in his career, struggled around the rim because he's so right hand dominant around the basket. So we got better. They are not to mention he's become an all the defensive team player, is one of the best defenders in all of basketball.

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And you put a guy like that on a team where it's built around him, you know, with a partner in crime who's running the offense, handling the ball, whether it's a Bradley Beal or a Chris Paul or Mike Conley, it could be special there when you have spacing with Simmons. So I feel like I used to be on the side of wanting to build around a beat if it's only one of the two. But I've transitioned to to more, preferring to build around Simmons because of what he does for you with his versatility on defense and what he can be if you actually have space on the offensive end of the floor.

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I totally agree.

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And I would pick Simmons if I had the choice only because I think he's a safer pick. I don't I don't know what the next seven to eight years of Embiid look like physically. I mean it might be great but I know at least with Simmons especially from what was I voted for him for third time NBA. I was so impressed with the D with him and I was, I was standing guard. I think they're in the game yesterday was talking about just raving about what an awesome defender he was.

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And I do think that slipped through the cracks a little bit with him publicly. I don't think people realize that he's way up there. Raja, you are defensive guru. Expert. Where is he? Is he top level for you. Would you put him in year five. Best five.

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Best for sure. Yeah. I mean I heard the, the, the broadcast to and you know, Van Gundy was saying he's the best defender in the league. When you, I mean you're splitting hairs, they're like I don't know that I'm ready to say. Is the best in the league, but top five certainly look versatility and length defensively or just things that you can't recreate, right? So you get a guy that size who can move his feet and stay in front of things.

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What's big enough to handle, you know, bigs? That's that's that's valuable. Like, I was a good defender. I could only guard one through three. And that's the small three because I was six five. Two hundred pounds. Right. There was a limit to what I could do. Shawn Marion was more valuable because he was six, eight and could guard one through four. So, you know, Ben Simmons is a is a great defender in that length and an ability to move his feet make him really, really versatile.

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Hey, Roger, can I ask you a follow up on those two guys? Because this is something I complimented Bill on.

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And whenever I compliment Bill too much, then everybody just thinks I'm kissing his ass.

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But it's it's a great point about tanking and that the writers love tanking because the writers feel like I could be a GM so I could just take to the Hinkie where he loves it.

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The hinkie worship is like beyond, you know, and something that builds said years ago is because, you know, one of the dangers of it is when you just decide, hey, let's be total losers here for three years and then we'll just turn it on and be winners. That's it's a really overlooked part of it.

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And I had heard, you know, Jimmy Butler was like, get me out of here. I had heard Tobias Harris is like, all right, I'll stick around for one hundred million.

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What do you know about me? The bad habits and the poor foundation, despite the talent of Simmons and Embiid that maybe lead to some of their struggles because of what they were allowed to kind of get away with. And basically it's like we don't even want you to play for a few years, do whatever you want, get bad habits, lose a million games, be around this, but then you're going to turn this on.

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Yeah, that's it's a good question. I can't speak to Philly specifically because I'm not in that building, like, I don't know. But I too when they started with the whole we're just going to tank and like you, I coach youth teams. Right. And I really believe you learn to lose and you learn how to be, you know, a loser the same way you learn how to be a winner like you. You put stock in things as a winner that become important and their foundations and cornerstones to like, you know, the beliefs that make you a championship level organization.

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And then on the flip side, you develop terrible habits. I mean, even, you know, eating habits. You're talking about sleeping habits. We're talking about being in that bubble and people being out to all hours a night, you know, having good fats in gyms that teach you how to stay in gyms and stay dedicated to to to honing a craft. Like I got to play with the Michael Finlay's of the world. I had Terry reporters and Avery Johnson's and Aaron McKees and Steve, like those guys were were all winners and champions who taught me, you know, how to be a pro.

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And so a lack of that in your gym and you're losing and you're promoting it like out in everybody's face, like it's going to teach people how to lose. And the risk you run is when you want to win, that you've conditioned a whole lot of really talented players to be losers. And I know this is an NBA pod, but I was worried about that last year with the Dolphins. They just wound up with a really good coach. And Brian Flores, who who was even though they tried to tank, he was creating a culture where they were competing every night.

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But Billy didn't do that. And that's what you wind up with not all the time, but you certainly run the risk of winding up with that and just pulling some NFL.

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And here this wasn't expected that that was your scouting report. Go ahead. Casey said, yeah.

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I mean, I don't I don't totally buy this, though, with Philly, though, because the last time they had a losing season, sixteen, seventeen. The only players from that team still on the current team are Embiid and Simmons. And we've seen Simmons, who was really bad on defense at LSU, a guy that was criticized as somebody who maybe doesn't care about winning. We have seen him turn into a guy who impacts winning. Joel Embiid, a guy who did have conditioning issues has continuously got better as a post player.

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I mean he's tried to get better as a as a jump shooter. It hasn't happened. He's also gotten better as a defensive player I feel like. And being in Simmons, the only guys from those tanking teams, the end of the process have become great players. They just don't fit together. I think the mistakes were like drafting Okafor. The mistake was Michelangelo trading, trading up and getting Foles. I feel like Philly is in this position because of personnel errors, not process errors.

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I think he was on the right track with what he did there. Just a couple of mistakes along the way that totally screwed this whole thing up.

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Right. But you had said before they've shown that just said they play they've won one playoff series if they don't win this one. Yeah, more in the region. Well, the thing is, the other thing was Simmons and I don't know, I just noticed this this year, I felt like he was the most competitive person on the team other than Theorbo, like when I watched them. Those are the two guys that you could count on if you're just flicking league pass thing.

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Oh, those two guys give a shit.

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But the chaos once you saw that. Yeah, we didn't see that was Simmons early on. I don't think this season. I felt like we saw it though. Yeah I know. I didn't know there was a competitive team and Tibo and that was it. And you know what we saw yesterday in that Boston game? I thought that was really kind of illuminating to the point where it's like, man, it's almost like they what was that story?

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This was, I think in your average I know it was might have been the one, two, three Cancun with Nick Van Exel in the huddle. Yeah, yeah. For me, nothing for you about the Lakers about to get swept. And he famously was like, one, two, three. Khankan And then they got sweats where they're a big thing, like you can Google this story, but sometimes teams look like they checked out. The Sixers look like a team that's that's done.

[00:27:49]

And then you hear Embiid after the game talking about uh you know the old way would be coming back home for game three with our fans. It's like yeah well there is no old way. This is you're playing a neutral gym and you had to win one of those first two games and you completely rolled over the second game. So I don't know the answer at them, but I know that the the Harris to be the Harris thing is actually the worst thing that they did because they gave up all their remaining assets in that trade.

[00:28:20]

I don't think he was the greatest fit with last year's team. And then they compounded the Arab. I gave him one hundred and eighty million, which is just bonkers. It was we said it at the time.

[00:28:29]

It was especially when there's money for other teams that had decided when they had him for a little while.

[00:28:33]

And it's. Yeah, kind of like something around. He's eighteen point a game. Guys that are like, man eighteen hits some corner threes. Efficiency's nice, OK, there's been four teams that are like we don't want to pay him because they had him in the building every night.

[00:28:46]

You did this on Logan Murdoch with him on Wringer in bad shape, but do it again quickly when you're in the Cavs. The tears. Oh yeah. That you guys had for like how you how you rated the players. Because I think in my opinion, when teams really get into trouble with contracts, it's always when you're given the Nick Batum contract that Tobias Harris contract. Twenty nine million for Andre Drummond. That's I don't mind overpaying superstars. It's when you overpay that guy below.

[00:29:14]

But tell that tell them about the tears that you guys set. Yeah.

[00:29:17]

It was you know, you sat down and you took every NBA player and you were ranked one through, I don't know, six or seven, something like that. And then you were attached like an ABC or a D after that and then a one A is, you know, I don't know, ten guys in the league. They can be hard at the best player on a championship level team, undoubtedly. Right. And then, you know, it would you would fall, you'd slide accordingly.

[00:29:41]

So if you were number two, like let's lose Gordon Hayward, who was a really good player, but I never thought he was a one a because I didn't think he could be your best player on a championship level team. You wind up like one B or one C, so you're still, you know, a really good player with Tobias. Harris is probably like a to a great character guy. He could be like your second or third option on a good team, but he's never going to be like a one, you know what I mean?

[00:30:08]

So they they slotted and they were really Grif was really smart, probably not a to a for Tobias, maybe like a three, but they weren't going to pay you if you were substantially out of the slot that they had you, they just wouldn't do it.

[00:30:21]

So. So Hayward was is probably a one C but because of the market, you talk yourself into him being kind of somewhere between a one eight and one B.

[00:30:30]

Yeah, but really he's a one C I like the way I do that KFC should we should we start adopting that for all of our basketball. What do you think you like all about it. I'm all about it. You love Tierce. I do love trash. Is that your tears corner. Yeah, I like that from Grif.

[00:30:46]

I wouldn't say Heyward's a onesie anymore though, that's for sure. He's he's fallen down a couple tears, probably down to three, unfortunately. Right.

[00:30:53]

Hey, guys, ESPN has workout footage of LeBron pregame. Oh, did you guys miss it? They somehow they were able to get access to him working out with a trainer before the game started.

[00:31:07]

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[00:32:11]

All right, let's talk about this lottery, because it's coming up in a little bit. It's starting at five thirty five 505 right now. Is this the worst lottery of the 21st century? The worst lottery since I've been doing this, yeah, but I don't think that makes it a bad draft. I think there's a lot of good potential role players that can be had in the middle of a lottery, late lottery and throughout the first round. And guys who impact winning like we saw with Methy stable this year, like we saw Brendon Clark on Memphis, like we're seeing with Daughton on OKC who went undrafted.

[00:32:45]

There's those types of guys. But the top of the draft, whoever wins these top four picks, you know, I've had conversations with execs and GMs and people who have potential lottery picks and they're like, we're fine staying where we are. We don't love the guys up top. And maybe that's just them talking it down. But I don't I don't think so. It's pretty consistent that the top players have so much risk that maybe for a lot of teams you'd rather have a quote unquote, safer option elsewhere in the draft where you're not paying nearly as much money for the player either with a rookie rookie scale contract, which is a good thing or a bad thing that we didn't have March Madness to overreact to is some of these guys.

[00:33:24]

It was a bad thing for the class because someone would have had a great story, somebody would have put together a nice run here and we would have talked ourselves in. So it's probably better that we didn't have it. So we didn't trick ourselves into thinking the top of this draft is really special. Whatever I've done and I've done it like my own 20, I can't believe some of the guys I have to put down is like the fourth or fifth best prospect.

[00:33:44]

I just I can't I can't believe it. And, you know, like every draft, the closer we get to it, people people will talk themselves into some guys, you know, once the slots are figured out tonight in those teams are going to start saying, hey, you know, they'll have the fourth pick and we go, this is really a four person draft. We see there's like four people, you know, and then hoping that we repeat it over and over again.

[00:34:05]

But I know in talking to some people, they're like, if there was ever a draft, I didn't want to have to evaluate more.

[00:34:13]

It's this one.

[00:34:14]

Like, we kind of knew what it was in June, like we normally would have. And now we're just doing a ton of extra work on guys that we're not that excited about.

[00:34:21]

I just wonder if new people in charge, some teams that have probably felt stale, if they'll talk themselves into trading any of the players that that still have some value around the league, we can kind of go over some of the rumors, some of the team, stuff like that. Will they actually want to trade into this lottery? I mean, I don't know.

[00:34:38]

I don't know why you would, but it's a hard it's a hard group to really figure out, like, who are the guys in the top ten you think can really help a franchise? Oh, man.

[00:34:47]

Kasey's top five. We have an awesome ringer draft guide, NBA draft that the ringer Dotcom Casey has.

[00:34:54]

Chilian has. As his number one person, you compared him to D'Angelo Russell and Manu Ginóbili, a dynamic left handed shot maker from France whose 18th Rajha knowing nothing, just hearing that. Does that excite you?

[00:35:10]

I mean, dynamic French manageably.

[00:35:15]

I mean, you you paired like the two best guards in or possibly spurs history.

[00:35:20]

I mean, so you got that. We have Anthony Edwards at the second spot. Roger, you're not going to like this. And in the minuses. Inconsistent effort at times, he plays hard by cutting running up the floor and crashing the boards, but then he'll disappear. Hmm.

[00:35:41]

I don't not at zero. That's always that you knew that you. That's my trigger. The not not consistent energy is a trigger for me, Roger.

[00:35:50]

And I see we see this stuff very similarly. I think I am out on all inconsistent effort guys and all skinny guys. That's just I'm blind out. That's all the pick up. I have to like either of those.

[00:36:00]

Yeah, I'm just out when it comes to effort. How do you assess that at the college level, though? Because the reason why I bring it up is because we just mentioned Ben Simmons earlier, a guy who was horrible at LSU has become a great defensive player. We're seeing in the playoffs right now Gary Trent, a guy who Duke was always ball watching this rotation in the last allowed backdoor cuts. And now he's a really good defender. So with these types of guys who don't put in effort in college or some inconsistent effort, it's really hard to assess that for me.

[00:36:29]

I just I miss on them because, like, I agree with you 100 percent, they're guys that they can that are exceptions to the rule. I just for me, like when I scouted, I told Bill this, I don't know, a week or so ago, like I. Talent, I was always going to write a fair evaluation, so, like, if you're talented, you can overcome a whole lot of stuff. Like what I always have to note, if you're low motor and you don't play hard, because I just think it means something, especially when you're talking about like lottery, because that's a guy that you would hope turns into a one a and to be a one a.

[00:37:01]

I mean, you have to have a whole lot of motor. There's you're responsible for a franchise, you know. So I just miss on a guy like that's not saying they can't get it figured out. Yeah. Let's take the risk. Right. I don't know, man.

[00:37:14]

I mean, you're basically saying that we should have an open mind about everybody that doesn't have any energy or doesn't put in an effort like. That's great. But the thing about Ben Simmons is, even though there was a lot of not that team was a mess, the coach was bad. They had four. You all wanted to score and he still pulled down like eleven rebounds a game in the SEC. So when you pull down that many boards and everybody's like knocking you, it's almost like a dad seeing like, who do you want your daughter to date?

[00:37:37]

And it's like, well, we should rule out these guys are head cases, you know, like, I don't know.

[00:37:40]

You know, my my middle daughter married a guy who crashed his car every every other week. And you know what? That worked out fine.

[00:37:45]

So we have an open mind. I'm the lymphoid algae.

[00:37:50]

I think here's the real issue. We're evaluating these dudes and they're 18, 19 and 20. He took eight threes a game and made twenty nine percent of them. That's the argument against Anthony Edwards. He took he takes a million bad shots and they're all bad shots seriously. They just shot selection. He thinks he's Steph Curry.

[00:38:05]

And he's he's I don't know how to tell you offense to Taylor. He's he's that he's not my cup of tea. But, you know, I was telling my son the latter is today my son plays NBA 2k and they have these Galaxy Opal cards where all of these guys and a lot of the guys from the lottery in the in the thing. So he's like the Anthony Edwards is going to be in it. He's awesome in 2K. And I'm like, yeah, because they souped up all the skills to ninety that out of 100 like in real life he might be out of he may be Anthony Bennett, who knows, lamella ball at number three and Kasey's list.

[00:38:38]

This is the one. This is the one anybody who says, I know what's going to happen with the millibar, they are lying to us, to themselves because it could go in 90 different directions. Rajha just from what you've heard peripherally from a maturity being able to handle it. What happens if he goes to a city and he's now the savior of, I don't know, Sacramento or whatever? What's your gut tell you?

[00:39:05]

I, I, I like him as a player, but I think emotionally there's a lot there, there's a lot of stuff that he's dealt with, like just, you know, being on the peripheral of the stuff with Lonzo and his and his brother and traversing the globe playing like, I don't know man again I don't, I don't good player, but I don't know that I'm trusting the franchise to be carried by him. That's just me person. But I don't know him.

[00:39:31]

I've done no homework on this draft and quite frankly, I haven't even seen him play a lot. I heard he's kind of special talent with the ball. He's long like he's a gifted guard. But there's a lot there's a lot of baggage there, I'm sure, man, that's there's a lot of stuff going on over there in our family. It was a shit show.

[00:39:47]

It was a total shit show. He shows up. They let him do whatever he wanted. The team sucked. They went five and nine with him. He took a million threes. He made twenty five percent of them.

[00:39:55]

And I can't believe he didn't get jumped by the adults on that Australian basketball team because it was so it was gross to watch. And I love the Australian Basketball League and that New Zealand and these guys are like, hey, let's bring over some of these high school kids with big names and get recognition it work for New Zealand with RJ Hampton. It feels a little temporary, but the RJ Hampton thing didn't exactly work out either. But for La Melo, it's look, he's six seven.

[00:40:22]

His handle the pick and roll the awareness, some of the stuff he does. It's really like I can see a team going, I'm into it. But when you watch the Australian games, it was just ugly. It was just ugly. And wherever he goes, if that's the way he thinks he's going to play as a rookie a year or two out of high school, they're going to laugh at him. And in Australia, like he didn't even they he just bounced after a little while anyway.

[00:40:47]

And I'm sure the team was like, good, because I can't imagine being a guy that's been event that league a long time having to play with that, where you completely disrupt everything you're doing. He lacks he lacks discipline for sure.

[00:40:58]

And that's something that's because he's been allowed to play any way he wants to play since he was a kid. And but with Mumolo, it's the type of thing where this is the same types of conversations are having now with why they're not super high on these top three, four picks, all these flaws that are rightfully talking about. But the people who love La Melo and I only kind of sort of like him, but the people who love him look at the fact that he is a dynamic ball handler who can create space, who can make passes that so few guys in the league even today can because of his height and his vision and his accuracy as a passer.

[00:41:29]

And they're like, if that shot clicks, he's going to be hard to stop on the offensive end of the floor. He's going to be a dynamic weapon for you. So, like, it depends so much with the draft this year about your philosophy. How much risk are you willing to take on with some of these guys who definitely have downside, whether it's Edwards or Lamella Ball or James wisemen who we'll talk about later, know?

[00:41:50]

I want to talk about him now. Actually, I thought because he dropped a seven on your list and this was somebody heading into the season was the consensus number one. What happened? With wisemen, it's the type of thing where the lack of an outside jump shot, at least from what is proven so far, he obviously has the Miserables set over seven foot seven, six wingspan, 240 pounds superstrong. But he doesn't seem to have feel to me when it comes to reading the floor on defense and on the offensive end of the floor of the shot, thought there the decision making is not there.

[00:42:24]

I feel like if I'm drafting a big man high in the draft, I need him to be a guy that I feel confident can be worth that second max contract when that comes up, because wisemen would be on that trajectory. If you're taking him. Number one, you're making a big long term investment. And for me, I'm kind of factoring in that second deal. Would I rather have to take a risk on one of these guards or wings or do I want to take a risk with a center?

[00:42:49]

So it's not as much of a knock on wisemen? Exactly where I have him ranked. It's more so just my own philosophy when it comes to how I would want to build a team.

[00:42:59]

So if let's say Jackson Hayes, what did he go tenth last year, eight, eight, nine, 10 somewhere in there. If he was in this draft this year, would he be ahead of James Westhaven?

[00:43:09]

No. OK, so so this draft is like as big of a catastrophe as people are making it seem, because, as you said, it's it's deep with solid guys who have a chance.

[00:43:20]

It's not a catastrophe because like, you know, guys that maybe we won't discuss tonight, that could be good role players. Aaron from Vanderbilt, knock down shooter was really going on defense. There's risks that you might want to take later to this draft isn't weak on role players. It's just all the top guys have major, major question marks. I mean, Ryan, if you ever got back to doing your NBA draft confidential, you'd have a lot of goodies this year about these top guys.

[00:43:46]

I know it just took hours to transcribe it, to keep all my sources private so much. What about no, I'm not done with wisemen because he shouldn't be OK. He can't. He can't. Look, I get what you're saying, but he just can't be seven in this draft. And I understand what you're saying about the second contract, but if he pulls them Obama on me, somebody else can pay him.

[00:44:07]

He is too skilled as far as the minimal version of him, his ability to run, he catches everything. There are some moments where you can see that it's not as fluid in the catch and processing exactly what he wants to do, where you'd like that to be a little bit more instinctual. But it isn't always that way. But like, I feel like there's a a five man rim to rim version of him that still should put him ahead of.

[00:44:32]

I mean, when we start doing the Obi Toppin. I know Denny, a lot of teams do like him. Haliburton, I just can't see collectively having six guys or chilian ahead of wisemen. I actually still would have him one here.

[00:44:45]

And I do think that there's there's another version of him. I'm not sure if it exists where I think we don't have a lot to go on. I'm sure you watch a more high school than I did.

[00:44:54]

But there's there's some small forward skills that I think he wants to show you every now and then where he has a little bit of a handle, a little bit touch. There's a turn around that he has. He showed this jump hook. But in the three games he played, he played no one that could guard him. And he and he put on a pretty impressive show on Just Roll, Catch, Roll and finish at the rim. But I just think with the uncertainty with the other guys at the top, I think seven is low.

[00:45:16]

I thought it might be and he is somebody that I want to learn more about because they're sort of like a bit of a Jaylen Brown factor here where Jaylen Brown at Cal was also a guy who didn't make a decision, who was also slow to embrace happening on the floor. Yeah. And so with wisemen, how much of that is that? Just him being a teenager and then he's still trying to get things to catch up. Here's the other thing, Roger.

[00:45:40]

I want your take on this. I think it's so easy to get Guards'.

[00:45:45]

And we see over and over again even this year, right, like Trey Burke was bouncing around on the scrap heap and he's, you know, one of the key guys in game two Dallas clips are like Cameron Payne, who three teams gave up on, and all of a sudden he's coming off the bench for Phoenix. I do feel like you can always find the Jalen Brunson, whoever. And then if they if they end up being better than that, great.

[00:46:11]

We can't find the two things are like the six, seven, six, eight wing three and D guy and then the guy who could be the five and potentially protect the rim for you. I would much rather roll the dice with Weizman and especially in this draft and hope he worked versus just taking a guard. Where do you stand on that, Roger, because there's so many good guards like Phanatic in let's say I take Halliburton, let's say he turns out he's pretty good.

[00:46:36]

Well, there's still going to always be ten to twelve point guards who are just better than him, you know, and it's like, all right. So now I'm taking a guy that never has a chance to make it all NBA team, whereas at least with wisemen, there's a real value if it pans out. What do you think on that? Rajha?

[00:46:52]

That's a good question, because, I mean. Initially, I was going to say I would air on the side, had taken a guard because so much of what you're doing is predicated on guard play now, like they you know, everything is spread out. And so having good guards, people can make plays off the bounce. Are critical, but that's that's provided I felt really good about the guard and his trajectory. So if you're telling me, like, I'm rolling the dice on one or the other, like, I think guys have always kind of air it on the big right just because you don't have a lot of six, 10 running jump athletes walking around like you see a lot of guys, six, five.

[00:47:32]

I saw my Publix when I was at the grocery earlier today, you know, but you don't see the six, 10 guy walking through the door. So if he can if he can run up and down the court and do some things that probably air on the side of the pig just because, you know, to your point guard position, if you have good ones already, can be plug and play like your guys like me. You know, I was able to catch on and have a good career.

[00:47:52]

But like, honestly, there are probably a lot of guys out there that could do what I did. You know, not a lot of six hands walking around.

[00:47:58]

Well, I would air if I had to rank my air on the side of caution positions. I just think your safest bet is probably the six six to six eight. Guy who can play multiple positions and you just kind of hope, all right, they're going to have one sort of especially in this draft, this like is maybe they don't have a great motor, maybe they can't shoot yet.

[00:48:21]

Maybe they were playing out of position in college and they were, you know, in college. They're playing as a four, but they're really a three. But it seems like over and over again, teams have struck oil on on those guys. Rosillo, what would have to happen for you to take a point guard with, like the fourth pick in the lottery?

[00:48:39]

I'd have to love my coach and we have to all be on the same page. And I would have to say, like look like the stuff Kelsey says about lamella. The teams like like it is very real. It's six, seven, maybe six, eight at some point seeing over the top of people running high, pick and roll with him and trying to trap him and having a passable shot. I mean, if that happens, he ends up being great.

[00:48:57]

I'm just telling you, if you watch all the Australian games, it's disgusting. I mean, it's hard to make it through those here.

[00:49:04]

You are not a fan.

[00:49:05]

You're not a fan of his floaters from the elbow.

[00:49:08]

I'm not a fan of, like, four guys that look like all they want is a fosters in a white dark looking at him, pull up from half court going, are you serious?

[00:49:18]

What is what is this?

[00:49:21]

I would have to be I would have to have like a great relationship with my coach. You go, how can we bring him along? If Golden State ends up like, say, there's a version where Golden State ends up at three in and say Wiseman goes in the top two know again, I'm just talking out of my ass here because I would imagine Edwards or Lamella or somebody depending on how the order goes, but say like Golden State's sitting at three and Weizman and top Pentagon.

[00:49:46]

All right. Some weird version of this. And you have Edwards lamella, Halliburton. I hope it's probably their worst case scenario, right, as they sketch this out there, like and let's hope we're not spoiled. Thomas Garza.

[00:50:00]

Yeah, Paul Tominaga, who doesn't make shots. So, you know, you want to have that. Yeah.

[00:50:05]

And you would think that that situation with Myers being so good and Kerr being so good is that maybe you're bringing this guy along slowly, but we're talking about the second part of the window here.

[00:50:14]

So for certain teams and then you worry about the bad teams where you go, are we given the keys to the castle with this kid?

[00:50:22]

And now we get a Zach Levine situation where I think Zach has come along.

[00:50:26]

He's become a better player. We don't exactly know.

[00:50:29]

But if he's your one, you know, what are we doing? You know, like don't don't print the playoff tickets yet.

[00:50:35]

No, we know we know what we're doing. We're going to be in the lottery.

[00:50:38]

Yeah, but like for a pick by bus to take one of these guards, I, we'd have to like we would spend my coach would be sick of me. The amount of time I would be talking about, like, how can we get this, how can we set this kid up to succeed instead of letting him do everything and having bad habits versus not needing him at some point. So I can see who is that?

[00:50:59]

Who's the most reasonable guy in this draft? Most reasonable guy, maybe Devin Purcell, a have 10 second tier player.

[00:51:09]

Even if Russia had this huge for you want to compare this number five guys, this awesome.

[00:51:16]

This is one of those guys that I would feel better about taking a head of Litzman just because of what he could bring to the floor for you as a versatile defender who just plays so freakin hard on the floor and on offense. Right. Great spot up shooter who's shown some stuff off the dribble that he didn't show his freshman year. He got dramatically better as a shooter off the dribble. And and that at least suggests there's a chance that he has some untapped upside off the dribble.

[00:51:42]

So he's a high floor and maybe a higher ceiling than some people might expect.

[00:51:47]

I have him third on my list. Because just from what you said, shades of Khris Middleton, Robert Covington and stable. I'm in, so I need one of the best defenders of this year's class with a developing offensive game. OK, so like to me, I looked at this list. I'm like, you know, we have to be focused on Golden State, Golden State. This is the all time ridiculous situation. They make five straight finals.

[00:52:15]

They still have Curry and Klay and Draymond. They still have an awesome organization and great. Don't forget Wiggins.

[00:52:22]

Well we're going to get to Wiggins in a second because you know if, if they were able to get this kid at like three or two or whatever, they still have the card of Wiggins with that Minnesota pick to try to trade for a veteran or potentially they could package this pick with that Minnesota pick, next year's top three Protected and Wiggins contract. And now I'm in the Bradley Beal conversation. If we think that in the off season, Bradley Beal is like, Look, you need to trade me, I am leaving.

[00:52:53]

He's not going to. You think, no way, he's not getting treated bail and will give it a chance together and and that team is going to give it a chance as well. I'd be shocked if people got treated.

[00:53:04]

I think the team wants to give it a chance more than those two guys want to give it a chance. I agree that they they want to give it a chance.

[00:53:10]

I've talked to both of them in recent months for stories that I've reported and like maybe their B.S. and me. But I buy when I'm when I'm here. I don't have a problem with the team.

[00:53:19]

They run against him saying, let's see what we got here, one more chance with a healthy wall.

[00:53:23]

And Beal I don't, I just, I don't know, they want to do it in time. Casey if Golden State got the third pick. You wouldn't trade bill for Wiggins, the third pick in that Minnesota.

[00:53:35]

We just talked about how shitty so sorry, I don't have a lot of sense of how bad the top prospects are. No, I can't do that if I'm the Wizards. Bradley Beal is only twenty six years old and he's turned into an all NBA caliber player. I want to keep that guy. That's the guy I want to build around here.

[00:53:52]

I have a couple of people. I, I, if I was the GM, I would be the I'm going down in flames of this guy and if he leaves me at the altar I'm getting fired anyway. But I'll definitely get fired if I trade him for 50 cents on the dollar. So now if Ben Simmons is on the table, I think that's a different that's why I wish this draft were better.

[00:54:09]

I wish Golden State got the number one pick and that there was a maybe a Karl Anthony Towns type at one and you go, all right, contract. Because the thing is you can't do Draymond to Philly, but having Ben Simmons would mess up Jeremy.

[00:54:24]

But I just I wish I could remember how forever and Roger remembers this every time there was some guy that would want to see leave the team.

[00:54:31]

We spent five years going, I'd love to see him on Phoenix.

[00:54:35]

It was just, it was just every time I feel like there's these bigs I just want to see run with Golden State and whatever version we see of him coming up.

[00:54:44]

Roger win. What year did the trade stuff start with that team? That was the year you made the Shaq Marion trade. That was when you guys were in the hole. Yeah. What are they going to do? Who's going by that? Do you remember being hyper aware that that was a conversation with all basketball people? Know, what I do remember is right before that domino fell, I was sitting with Leandro Barbosa pregame watching a telecast of a of a Heat game, and they pan to Shaq up in the stands and and Elby said, like, you know, in his Brazilian accent, like who who trades for him now, man?

[00:55:20]

And I was like, Elby, I could not tell you who would trade for Shaq at this point. I don't know what they'd have to give up.

[00:55:26]

I know who it. And like two weeks later, Shaq was there and then, you know, like we talked about, that was the dominant. But I listen, we also had this conversation, Logan and I, about it goes into tampering a little bit. Everyone wanted to play in Phoenix at that time. Like I when I was in Utah halfway through that season, I was letting people know, look, I want to play in Phoenix. If I if I can play in Phoenix, I'd like to play there.

[00:55:51]

So I wasn't really acutely aware of it, but I mean, the trade rumors. But I knew everyone wanted to play there because it was just the style that that, you know, was like pick up. Do you think Houston has that now? Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people have that now, right, like a lot of people play more of a wide open style. So I don't think it's unique to Houston. But I do I do think a lot of guys could see themselves if they're really, you know, gifted on the ball or like me.

[00:56:21]

Houston would appeal to me a lot now because I know I could just sit in the corner and shoot threes. Right.

[00:56:25]

So if you really loved it, I'd love to come back. And if you if you call my mother the ringer.

[00:56:35]

Yeah, I think part of the Phoenix thing was just this magical training staff we always heard of when they when they fixed Grant Hill, it was like it was like the greatest achievement of the two thousands. Yeah. That guy was done. He'd lost like three years to injuries. And then all of a sudden he was, you know, reinventing himself as kind of Pippin Lite for a couple of years. But, yeah, that was I wonder what other teams are like that can't say what other teams are like that, that the players in the league are like, oh, man, I want to be on that team.

[00:57:03]

I think it's like Roger said, a lot of teams are playing that style. Now, this is a lot of a lot of ball movement.

[00:57:09]

Why did you say Boston? I say you have just to say Boston. I gave you the bait. There you go on me. You could bring it up. All right. So here's what we do next. Probably the lottery ads, because this Borke game is about to end. The Golden State's in the pole position. The lowest Golden State can go is five. They have a 48 percent chance of being fifth. Cleveland is second. We should probably talk about them for a second.

[00:57:38]

The hell do you do if you're Cleveland? What do you need? You need everything and nothing. You have guards. You have you have the the weird German love backcourt, which our front court, which I guess they're going to keep maybe. But like, what would you do if if they asked you, hey, Roger, what do I do with Cleveland, man?

[00:58:00]

I figure out how you want to play, like because the way you're setting it up looks like you're throwing it back to like ninety six. And I mean, I don't, I don't you know, I don't know that that's going to work in the NBA. I just there were Phoenix was for me three years ago. Where. Kobe is my guy, but like, what are you doing? What's the what's the end game here? Do we have a blueprint?

[00:58:23]

Like can you tell me what the vision is and how you're going to get me there? And I don't know, because there's what is in the draft that's going to help them. Like you just named and we talked about a bunch of guys that. I mean, I don't think that really helped Cleveland, right? What would you do, Rosillo? Well, first of all, I wouldn't make any positional mistakes in the draft, I wouldn't go.

[00:58:47]

Well, I can't take a guard because I really like Sexton and Garland, you know, I think it's too early to write off Garland, who I did like a lot because of his.

[00:58:58]

You know, we had a very limited, I think, four game sample of him at Vandy. But as far as he's kind of in out start, stop dribble and then the three point shooting numbers, I thought there was something there. And I kind of go, well, look, I think most of these backcourts now you're better off with two scores, especially if one guy small because they trap them, they just kick it to somebody else. You can see the times when you really extend and try to trap lower and say, OK, well, now McCollum's going four on three.

[00:59:20]

So is that a great situation? I don't think you have to worry about playoff stuff like that right now if you're Cleveland.

[00:59:25]

But, you know, love is twenty eight point nine million two years from now.

[00:59:30]

That contract was stupid. That contract was, hey, we're mad that LeBron left and now we're going to buy into one of our guys and look at our positive headlines. And it was it was it was stupid.

[00:59:43]

I would he was this day, it's like, yeah, he wants to stay because you're overpaying in. Drummond is a twenty eight point seventy five dollars million option. I mean, you've got to be kidding me. And he can't he has a hard time sitting on the floor in today's game.

[00:59:56]

So I don't I think I would I would also tell you that Cleveland's probably one of the more owner influence teams as far as some of the stuff that they do. Most of these owners call the shots more than I think a lot of us even realize it. It's always good to remind ourselves of it, but they have terrible contracts across the board. I mean, Larry Nance, Junior, you guys remember him? He still owed another twenty million the next two years.

[01:00:19]

So, yeah, that's that's another type of contract where you get in trouble, where you're paying like the Larry Nance junior type. Pretty good. This is pretty good this year.

[01:00:32]

Cleveland's improving paper here is pretty solid individually as defense played some three for them with all their bigs.

[01:00:39]

You know, I like this. I like correction on Larry. I like it, too. I like this. That's good. I like that Larry Nance defense. They just the lottery started and they just showed the board. It looks like Golden State put the Steph Curry card for four the winners.

[01:00:55]

And from the 86 draft, Minnesota is going to be the third team with the with the most ping pong balls. To me, it's a little more clear what they need.

[01:01:10]

Right. They just need whoever the best swing is that I mean. Or point guard like they kind of can't lose in this draft, there's multiple guys that would probably play for them, I would assume, right, Cassie?

[01:01:21]

Yeah, I think Minnesota right here, they they went in either direction. They go you can pair another guard with D'Angelo Russell if you want to. He can play off the ball or he can be the guy. Handle it for you. So whether it's a while Melo or Anthony Edwards or whoever it might be up top, you can feel good about that potential fit there. Or maybe you compare big with towns, considering he's such a potent three point shooter.

[01:01:43]

So for Minnesota, I mean, regardless of what position they go here or what the philosophy is, if they nail this, suddenly they have a pretty appealing young Big Three with Russell Cat and whoever the pick might be.

[01:01:56]

Yeah, I don't. That's a tough one. Because I don't know what they do with that sexting Garland thing, and you get in a situation where you're like, well, we can't take another guy and we have these two guys, but maybe the guy who's on the board is actually better than either the guys they have. Atlanta is for Lainez. I was surprised they were this high because I I think I had the impression in my head that things were going a little bit better for them maybe than that record.

[01:02:25]

But, you know, they at least had the foundation, the at trade as a generational disaster they'll never recover from.

[01:02:30]

But pandemic was good for them nationally. What you're telling us. Well, it did it did move the lack of focus off. But what would you do for them? Rajha your Atlanta. What do you need? I need some vets in there. I need I need to get some good, solid guys that can help that young core, like, understand not unlike what we talked about in Philadelphia with all that Luzhin. Like, we need some people in the building to know what it's like to win that have been in the foxholes, in the battles.

[01:02:57]

And so, honestly, I don't know what in the draft is really going to help me further. You know, Atlanta's winning percentage next year, you're going to be like retreading the same path you were on this year, which was were too young to win. So I don't know what it looks like for them package and stuff to figure out how to go out and get a substantial vet like someone who could help. But I would be looking to do that if I was Atlanta enough with the accumulation of really young talent.

[01:03:22]

Let's try to start winning. Like, let me get somebody in here who can help with that now.

[01:03:26]

Yeah, I was wondering because it seems like Buddy Hield is a guy and, you know, he's not super young, but he's still in his mid 20s at this point. But Buddy Hield seems like a guy who's probably going to be available in the off season.

[01:03:39]

And I was wondering like if I'm Atlanta, I think I want more shooting. I want to be like that where the crazy shooting team and he seem like somebody, but I don't know, like what is Buddy Hill's value KSC compared to a top five pick in this draft, probably a bit lower because of the fact that he's going to be getting paid, you know, around twenty million dollars and you don't have as much long term security.

[01:04:03]

But with Buddy Hield, that would be a really, really intriguing fit next to Trae Young. Right with their shooting ability there. I mean but he can do a little bit on the ball with you too. I feel like with Atlanta, you know the idea of bringing in veterans I think is smart for them because Trae Young has already become the level of player where he's ready to win, you know, individually as a player. And normally when it comes to team building, you don't want to do anything is short sighted or stupid that hurts you long term.

[01:04:29]

But with Atlanta or even, you know, Dallas, with Loka or some of these young teams, I feel like it's like in the NFL with a good young quarterback. You want to take advantage of that when they're on their rookie deal and try to add as much talent as you can before they come up with their next team. And you don't have as much flexibility with Trae. I mean, the level of player he is, even though you said it's a disastrous deal for them to get rid of Lukáš, I mean, that very well may be the case considering Loukia legend is on that track.

[01:04:55]

But Trey is a great player himself too, in his own right. It's that's it's a tough it's perpetually a tough one for them for as long as Luka is playing professional basketball.

[01:05:07]

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[01:06:29]

Rosillo, would you rather have the fourth pick in this draft or Buddy Hield I'll take Buddy. I mean you got to pay somebody anyway and I get the point of how much it can mess you up.

[01:06:41]

But you know, look man, I like the transactions where it's not about hope sometimes and if it's a player I like I go OK, who cares about waiting on cap space. Are you telling me I can trade for this guy who I kind of like and he may not be as good as is closing my eyes and swing as hard as I can.

[01:06:58]

And, you know, if it were a different draft, I think it would be it would be probably a different answer, you know, if there was four or five guys I liked in this. And really the reason why this draft is so frustrating is that you plan for years to land somewhere where you get your chance at a star. I mean, that's the whole job. Can you find a way to get your hands on one of these stars?

[01:07:17]

And that's why you'll see people draft certain times. They go, yeah, we knew this is way bigger risk, but we were due to try to do this the same time when Milwaukee was like, yeah, we weren't really sure about Giannis. We go to see the best guy of the group. Now that still star potential. It's what Denver did with Michael Porter Junior and it's certainly working for Milwaukee. It man I worked at the same level for Denver and it doesn't feel like you have any of those options here.

[01:07:39]

So if you're giving me somebody like Buddy who can shoot in space the floor. But I think the biggest thing for Atlanta is as good as Trae has become as an offensive player, he's got to be better than the worst defensive player in the league. If he's going to play this many minutes. And I don't know how you hide it other than hoping you have what a nice two way player like. Do you think Buddy's good enough defensively to make up for all the stuff?

[01:08:02]

Or I mean, maybe Raja, you could speak to this just how often you guys search out those switches to try to abuse somebody. You don't do it every single play, but is there a way to hide Trae enough to start winning some more games defensively? Not it, not. If you have another guard you need to pair him with the like. They did it with Allen Iverson a lot like they paired him with the defensive to. Yeah.

[01:08:24]

Eric Snow Star. Yeah. Or a defensive one. Right. Like they were looking at. Yeah. So you're looking for, you're looking for that. I look Buddy Hield, I want to take anything away from his defense. He's serviceable but I don't know what if he's good enough. I think that's the right answer man. Yeah. What Trey's doing I like, I think Buddy Hield fits with him offensively. I have concerns and like I say Allen Iverson because I almost feel like the way Trae Young plays you kind of have to really commit like that's the way you're playing it, like he's got to have the ball in his hands and it's got to be high pick and roll like you got to play like that.

[01:09:00]

So you've got to build to play like that because that's what you're that's what you've decided you're going to do.

[01:09:05]

Right. And maybe, you know, to be fair to Cam Redish and in The Hunter and, you know, we probably I think we'd all sit here and agree that it's still a very to be nice, like, I don't know.

[01:09:17]

But we've got to give him more than a year to see if somebody's one of these guys develops into somebody that can maybe guard some smaller players, because they're certainly you would think with the way Hunter was in Virginia and the athleticism of Redish, that there's at least something to build on there. Even if, you know, as rookies, it was very inconsistent.

[01:09:33]

But run by a second year player with Trey, I hope he's willing to sacrifice and share the ball more often, because if he does, that opens up what they can do on the offensive end. Trae Young this year only shot one hundred and three three pointers off the catch and at 47 percent of them I mean he is a knock down shooter off the catch the things you could do with him off handoffs and screens. It's pretty exciting if he's willing to sacrifice, but that's the big question.

[01:09:58]

A lot of guys don't want to. So, yeah, we got to go and say, Cleveland, Minnesota, Atlanta, Detroit has the fifth most ping pong balls, I don't think we need to even have a Detroit conversation. Talk to a friend.

[01:10:11]

I was going over the lottery real quick and he was like worst roster in the league in blocks bruto.

[01:10:17]

I mean, by far, if you're if you're the GM of that team, you're just looking in a mirror going, what did I do to myself?

[01:10:22]

Knicks at six new new administration for them? I don't know. I guess if you were ranking their best assets. The assistant coach, I guess Barret's first, but they don't really have the moves, like if they want to make a big splash and be like Oh Embiid might be on the table. Here's a bunch of stuff. They don't even really have the bunch of stuff so God only knows with them. I just want to talk about Chicago really quickly.

[01:10:48]

They're they're seventh in this mix. They just had a coaching trainwreck. There's some good stuff written about that this week. I don't think they were run particularly well by particularly well. I mean they were run fucking terribly and I like some of their pieces. Like I like Carter, I like Markkanen. I think marketing was in a worst case scenario. If I was a GM, I would be trying to cherry pick him right now because I don't.

[01:11:12]

I think there's a whole different world in which that guy like really an asset if he's playing on the right team. Roger, if you if you had the Chicago GM job. Are you keeping the team you have are you blowing it up a little bit? Keep in the team I have for now, I need so right Ryan was talking about having, like, real frank conversations with your coach, like we got to get in a room and really hash this out.

[01:11:40]

Right. With stylistically, how are we going to play? What are your what are your plans for Lauri Markkanen and what are your plans for Carter? How are you going to use Zach Levine. So he's not just going like crazy and shooting us while he's going to win a game, but we were shot out of everything like what are we going to do there? And if any piece doesn't fit with his vision, like I wouldn't be afraid to move something, but I don't think I'd move off of it just to move off of it.

[01:12:06]

Like, I I'd want to give that a year with some stability just to see what I actually had. Rosillo, would you try to cherry pick Carter Markkanen? Who do you like more. I love your marketing call. Best thing you've said in an hour. Thanks Stephanie. Because they're Latorre.

[01:12:21]

I know you do. Warm up is closer.

[01:12:23]

We get to the ball but I take a knee like work.

[01:12:25]

But I, I think Mark it had some moments before the injuries and then, you know, it's tough on these young rosters where you go, hey, we're rebuilding, OK?

[01:12:34]

Everybody's young and it's like, OK, cool. One through 12 is all first, second or third year players. And the third guys are pissed off at the first year, guys, because they're taking their minutes and they think they're due for a contract that they probably don't deserve because we've been this bad and we're still rebuilding. Like, what do we actually have?

[01:12:48]

But I thought Markkanen had moments where you go, whoa, this might be the part of the Jimmy Butler trade where it completely works out. And now Kobe. We had moments last year and I would just move on from Zach Lavine. Mark, it's one of those guys who's going to end up on, like Dallas say, you know, some good team that will be like, oh, we figured out all the ways to use him in a long white Dallas.

[01:13:11]

Austin. Yeah. Casey, what do you think?

[01:13:14]

Who would you pick? I mean, with marketing Carter for that team, they're keepers to me for now at least. See how I can work that out. Marketing can do more off the dribble than he was able to show under Boyland and Carter with the injuries he had over his first two seasons. I don't feel like he's gotten a fair opportunity to do what he can do or what he has been able to show, what he can be on defense, either, for that matter, as a real anchor and with some versatility.

[01:13:38]

I think that's such a good job. I was really jealous of the dude with a lot of letters in both of his names or terrorism or terrorists. How do you say his last name? They came in, they came in, I was jealous of that dude, because you have a great fan base that, you know, has a lot of good memories and even up until a few years ago had teams and players that they really liked your huge market.

[01:14:07]

You have money to spend, allegedly. Who knows if the owners can actually spend it. But, you know, the pieces are there.

[01:14:13]

You're the third biggest city in America. Compare and contrast, Ransdorf and Robert Sarver.

[01:14:21]

OK, I've got no experience with Reinsdorf. I look, if I started with my Barbara Starr, I almost told Robert Sarver story the other day it's an interaction with my wife after she had a DNC like she was our first pregnancy, like I had to leave the all star weekend, like come home and check on her. And like, I'm not going to repeat, like, what he said to her, but it was just one of those things where you're like, you know, if you can't if you can't figure out something to say in a situation like that, it's just like, hey, you know, sorry to hear about it, keep it moving.

[01:14:59]

If you can offend her in that situation, like you probably don't have a great touch.

[01:15:04]

It doesn't seem like it's getting better with him, even though despite the team, you know, I've never seen anybody celebrate eight in the bubble that ultimately led to nothing. But they had reason to celebrate because it was the first time they felt like, oh, man, we actually might have the foundation or something. Oh, the latter is about to happen as as we watch these these first for the Celtics from the Memphis Grizzlies. So there you go.

[01:15:32]

The Celtics are going to have the 14th pick. Back to back years of thinking they were going to get a top five pick from Sacramento or Memphis and they turned out to be, what, Kansi 14 and 14. Yeah, great, Bob, before we get the rest of Latorre, no one expected me to do this at thousand twenty, taught us anything, it's that things don't always go as planned. State Farm. You can be ready for the unplanned moments in your life like life.

[01:16:00]

The NBA draft is filled of surprises and unexpected moments. Rajab's not even drafted, right? Not even drafted.

[01:16:09]

No, that was was that expected or unexpected?

[01:16:12]

It was expected that there was a chance. I went to Atlanta with their last pick, but it was expected.

[01:16:16]

Well, there's a lot of unexpected moments, too. I was doing the draft on Anthony Benek. I take it I just had a seizure on air with State Farm. You get a teammate who can help you navigate the unexpected events in your life and savings with surprising great rates when you want the real deal like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right. So we went Celltex. It's all Chalke so far elcock. Celltex, New Orleans, Sacramento.

[01:16:44]

Spurs, Phoenix Suns, oh, so everything's Chuck, wait, somebody jumped the net, no. Yep, Charlotte jumped the Knicks. So the Knick early connects.

[01:16:53]

The Knicks ended up off.

[01:16:56]

Yeah, they ended up eighth and they were they were spaced.

[01:16:59]

Two teams jump because Detroit was fifth. So did Washington jump? No, no, no. Nine. You did this last year and it just turned to a train wreck. I did. I'm sorry. Now, I don't know religion in this room, so I can't see it at the moment now Shorris seven, Atlanta, Charlotte and Chicago jumped a while.

[01:17:19]

Cleveland five. Wow, Jami Gertz. So Chicago, that's. I kind of like their team, I like they could get the top three, which they just did, that's pretty good. So we have, it looks like.

[01:17:33]

It looks like it's Golden State, Chicago and in Charlotte, in Charlotte, yeah.

[01:17:41]

So you think this was the last payment for the last dance? You do the doc, here's a check for 10 mil and you get the number one pick in the draft, Curry's rocking like he's got a Qamar or SWAT look going on you.

[01:17:58]

I really like it. Yeah, he looks awesome. He looks like he's going to be in action movie. Oh, it's the top four picks revealed.

[01:18:04]

So Golden State, Cleveland. Minnesota, Chicago. Golden State, Minnesota, Charlotte, Chicago, the top four. That's a fun top four.

[01:18:18]

So that means Cleveland Falls, the five, Atlanta Falls or six, Detroit seven, New York to eight. And then the rest is chock yet.

[01:18:24]

So New York still only had the sixth Beth's odds to get to number one. But it's just, you know, it's just unbelievable. Before the lottery last year, you're like, all right, Kyrie Durant and Zain, how are they fit?

[01:18:37]

And Knicks team, she's like, or or can you see quickly who's who in Chicago is the most interesting team in the top four to me, who would be the most fun guy for them to get. I think it's like we talked about earlier where the Cleveland depends on how you want to play, but it's got to be lamella if you're talking fun. Straight up fun Flamel. So you put La Melo and Kobe right together. I'm not saying it's a winning combination combination.

[01:19:12]

You know what I mean, though, is Zach Lavine and Romello. That might be the only way that you could break La Melo in where you go.

[01:19:20]

Hey, you see all the stuff you do, right? That's as annoyed as you are when you watch Zach do stuff. That's how the rest of the team feels about you, your rookie year. So what you're doing is I learned it by watching you, Dad.

[01:19:33]

It's like Galaxy Brain Team building right here.

[01:19:36]

There you go. So those two together could be the only thing that gets Rosillo through another year.

[01:19:41]

The pandemic, being able to criticize the Melo Zakharova as a backcourt, that would send you into an absolute frenzy, maybe some of the worst shot selection of all time. Lamella and Trae Young would be fun taking the fight to the death.

[01:19:54]

Zach did get better than his did is the ones that really bothered me. Were those t wolves pull ups from thirty feet with twenty one seconds left in the shot clock.

[01:20:04]

Those those are the ones kind of like when Marcus Smart feels like our time to get this team out of it. Marcus had some tough ones. These first two games.

[01:20:11]

Yes he has. It reminded me again but he's, he's been better with it.

[01:20:15]

So you know, it's funny you want to enable him and you want him to be full Marcus Smart at all times. You want him to you know, what to do is embrace his inner Marcus Smart.

[01:20:23]

But it's like the amount of times that I'm sure Roger can speak to this. You would waste a post possession on a big you couldn't finish just to make him feel good about all the screens. He was going to set the rest tonight. That's what you do with Marcus. You let him take those three or four. I just don't like it when it's with less than two minutes left in a close game, that's all. I'm not Bill, though, you know who was great with that, Mike D'Antoni.

[01:20:44]

He was not going to tell you bad shot. He just wasn't going to do it because he was like you ever, because you just have to be free to be you. Right. Like whether your value was on the defensive end or rebounding or even scoring, like going to let you shoot. But because I want you to feel good about that. Yeah.

[01:20:59]

When Stephens expresses mild upset ness at omakase three, you know, it was like an absolute travesty of a three because I think he subscribes to that theory. He wants Marcus to to cook and do his thing. Kansi most fun team to win the lottery right now.

[01:21:15]

Golden State not even close Golden State for all the reasons we talked about earlier with the fact they're already going to be back in championship contention with all the things that they could do with trade potential there or just taking a young guy and haven't turn him into something special and having him on a rookie deal with staff and Klay and Draymond and Wiggins, it's Golden State if you're picking the finest team for the number one pick.

[01:21:39]

And most intriguing from a competition standpoint in the West, question for the group was Charlotte too good where you don't want to take a rookie to upset what they could build on from last year?

[01:21:50]

Yeah, you know what? Infringe on Gribbs. They were fun.

[01:21:56]

They competed like crazy. And I thought that team had a chance to win like twelve games.

[01:22:02]

So I like some of the guys that team. I do too. They break. Got that. We had them on the pot. PJ Washington. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean Graham Graham was supposed to take a back seat to Rozier and Graham I thought was kind of the guy for them.

[01:22:16]

And you know, even though Bridges probably isn't as good as maybe we thought we first saw him at Michigan State, I still like his attitude. All right. So Golden State, Minnesota, Chicago, Charlotte, Chicago got four. That's still nice, though, so they moved up four spots. Charlotte, third. Wow, holy shit, Golden State's going to win the lottery, this is unbelievable. Thank God we don't have an actual awesome superstar gold state second.

[01:22:47]

Minnesota, you know what this smells like, so Minnesota is number one, you know, this smells like to me a little present, a little present for the new owner that's about to take over Minnesota and throw a couple hundred extra million. Here's the here's your present even number impact conspiracy.

[01:23:02]

D'Angelo sitting here celebrating, you're like, yeah, but you're going to be playing off the ball with lamella. Are you excited about that?

[01:23:10]

Kansi Minnesota on the clock because your prediction, James, wisemen go to bigs filled with some skill. You like that, Roger? Yeah, I'm with that, I like it. You know, like I love you, like the way you like the wisemen, towns, Twin Towers. Hmm. So he can't talk himself into it? No, and I'm the one who has I think I have wisemen one, I still like to do a little bit more work on everybody.

[01:23:38]

That's kind of funny. I get on kenosis case for having him seventh and now Minnesota wins the lottery like no one is.

[01:23:44]

Sure.

[01:23:44]

You know, I wouldn't rule out Edwards because I think Edwards is going to blow people away with his body, his Zoome whatever.

[01:23:53]

Yeah on Zoome with a filter especially incredible Zoome guy so far.

[01:23:57]

Kind of like after reading is a big room anyway.

[01:24:01]

Zoome guy could could Russell and Edwards. Is that a matchup that makes sense to you guys. Rogers in charge like bullish right now. No, I think that's better. I think is better than the Melo and and Russell for sure. If Edwards starts defending and he can actually hit shots, then that could be a great combination. Edwards is probably the ideal. If you're talking about what he can be in a best case scenario with his body, he's going to already get an NBA ready body, but he doesn't have an NBA ready brain on the defensive end or as a shooter with a shot selection either.

[01:24:34]

But Edwards ideally. But I do wonder if maybe they zig when everybody zagging and go with two bigs with cat and wise. And that's really intriguing to me.

[01:24:44]

And Charlotte's at three. And they have territories here for 20 million a year. Dave Graham, who is most improved. Candidate of the year, dude, they kind of need everything and nothing, it's one of those teams I'm not even going to predict what they're going to do. But Chicago at four. There, I mean. According to your draft guide. It would seem like you just kind of want to be in the top five and then all hell might break loose after, but even if they got Vassall for Chicago, that would be a good one for them, I would say.

[01:25:19]

I wonder if Golden State just takes him. That's like exactly what they need. They need a wing guy who's can play 30 minutes game guard people, not expensive. It just seems like a goal.

[01:25:31]

And state, it's going to be fascinating because now that we actually know the order, I mean, you talk to people who have the cell rank, 16th or 17th, you talk to people who have a ranked 5th. So that's true for Weizman. Lobello rankings are everywhere, all over the place. So we're talking about like wisemen Edwards and Ball as the likely guys for the top three. But I do wonder if maybe one of those guys are two of them end up possibly falling.

[01:25:56]

And we get some surprises in the top three of the guys we're really not focusing on here, especially a team like Golden State who might be more more likely to draft for need to your point. Yeah, the lines, the Wiseman thought, the Minnesota I mean, because you can't I don't know if Culver plays into the equation here and then they think like, OK, it's Culver and Russell, a great fit.

[01:26:21]

Probably not.

[01:26:21]

I mean, whatever, man. It's about putting as many scores out there as you possibly can. So if they feel like, hey, Edwards fits in this and there, that's a small forward, small guard point guard and we go with that. But would Weismann make more sense because they don't have to commit to him as much offensively? I mean, it's going to come down to just like, hey, I like this guy better than that guy.

[01:26:39]

I'm not going to get too worked up about it. But if Weismann were to go one, I think that really kind of impacts what Golden State is going to do. But I don't know what the trade market is going to be like. I don't know Philadelphia. I would imagine they're going to try it again with the coach. I don't know what the Pacers are going to look like next year.

[01:26:53]

You hear some rumors about Sabonis wanting out. I think the Atlanta Hawks would probably move some of the younger pieces around, as Roger was talking about, for some depth there, maybe some veteran guys. But, you know, Golden State might get stuck with with a guard if Weismann goes one when?

[01:27:11]

Well, if Kasey is right on killing Hayes, that's a good consolation prize for them. But I still think I think they go for Vissel because of because of just I know how they curse.

[01:27:24]

Talked about it on my podcast, like he's envious of the teams like the Celtics that just have multiple wings, the ability to switch in like he's pretty open, like we think that's where basketball is going. So my guess would be they would have somebody that could play into that over who could we see a trade down.

[01:27:40]

You know, we've seen three consecutive years of trade as the top five picks, Foles for Tatum, Luka for Trae Young, then the DeAndre Hunter for multiple first last year. I feel like this is another year, especially if you're talking about one with Minnesota or two with Golden State, that I look at those teams and maybe I'm like, oh, you know, Chicago, you want to trade up here, Cleveland, you want to get wisemen, let's make a deal.

[01:28:02]

I feel the same thing with him is that Phil could use the one.

[01:28:05]

Minnesota's got top three protected pick next year, goes to Golden State. We've seen this because the Celtics were in this situation two years in a row. We're the team that knows they're probably losing their pick. They kind of go all in and they'll make a couple moves to try to get in the middle of the pack. So maybe that is something they would do. You try to trade down, pick up another asset, take a salary. I think they have cap space this year.

[01:28:27]

And basically there's drafts like that. The eighth pick could be better than the first pick this year for that type of draft next year.

[01:28:36]

We should, by the way, just mention of the here, because I just don't think we've talked about them enough. Sometimes some teams just like them enough to have him in the conversation with this top group. And at six, nine, I. I got to tell you, like, he's it's not Luca ish, because I actually think he is a bit of a quicker first step. But, you know, I like Luca drives and he just keeps driving on everybody the whole night.

[01:28:59]

You're like, all right.

[01:29:00]

I guess it kind of works like I think Danny has that same kind of thing and he might end up being bigger. The shooting numbers weren't great. You like those to be a little bit better. But I think there's there's a physical part of his game. The drives are consistent. I've seen him post and then kind of get shut off, kick it out and then get deeper and repost. And I was like, oh, my God, this is 30 year old shit.

[01:29:21]

And he's he's reposting after a kick out and getting better position and feeling. I just feel like he's at least worth mentioning with some of these other names because I think there's a high end for him. Cossey, where we could see him going at least higher than we've mentioned, at least tonight I'm with you. One hundred percent of the, you know, only 19 years old with his versatility on the offensive. And he can run a little bit of offense for you.

[01:29:45]

He's so smart off the ball on defense. He always seems to be in the passing lanes. He's a smart player. I mean, he checks a lot of those boxes that Roger was saying that he likes to see and prospects and young players that you want to have the question with idea is the fact that he shot low thirty percent throughout his career overseas, around 50 percent from the free throw line. And his shot looks good. It seems like he has good touch around the rim on layups and floaters, but for some reason, the shot just hasn't developed from the perimeter, from the line.

[01:30:14]

And and that's the big question for me. I mean, can he answer that question for teams ahead of the draft? Because if that shot's ends up developing for him, I mean, there's no doubt he can end up becoming the best player. The draft. Yeah, you just described, like the Golden State, the draft need until you get to the no shooting or there could be a teach him how to shoot.

[01:30:35]

Raja, I'm going to leave you with this. No, Casey has this guy ranked 15th. I'm just going to give you some information you have to decide in or out right now. He's from Serbia. Alexi Puch Osofsky. Castrates a lanky seven footer, moves like a wing, passes like a guard, needs to groaners thin frame to thrive in the NBA. Shades of Detlef Schrempf, Lamar Odom, Track and Bender.

[01:31:03]

I can give you is I'm going to give you these stats. Seven feet tall, two hundred and one pounds out.

[01:31:10]

A long, long wingspan.

[01:31:16]

Wingspan, come on. Seventy three wings. But I to Chris Bird in our text. Can't see him. I can't see. What are you doing skinny guys. No. Get this guy out of your top.

[01:31:25]

Fifty seven feet. Two one. That's light.

[01:31:30]

That's like, I mean I look I've never seen him so I like all jokes aside but the NBA you're talking length and versatility, right. Like that's what we're talking about now. So if you, if you're skilled and he could play. But if you're seven foot two hundred and one pounds, I don't know how much more weight you're putting on. It just sounds like you're really, really thin. He is lean, that's for damn sure. KFC isn't old enough to remember Brad Sellers in the Bulls.

[01:31:54]

I sent him a card of Brad Sellers, but that's to me, that was when I was just out on the skinny seven footers like these guys are out of my life. Hey, this was fun. Thanks to State Farm. Thanks to Rajab's. Thanks, Kevin O'Connor. Thanks to Rosillo. You can hear Raja on Mondays and regular NBA Asia with Logan Murdoch. You can your KFC on Tuesdays and Thursday nights and bring our ambition. Rosillo will be doing our thing on on Sunday night.

[01:32:20]

Well, it could be a what the hell is wrong with the Lakers podcast too. Does see you guys soon. Thank you. All right, bring your principality on in one second. First, I wanted to mention the rituals we put up to this week, Caddyshack, 40 year anniversary, and then pump up the volume, the greatest movie we've ever done on the watch box that is not available for streaming. Hopefully that podcast will change that reality.

[01:32:44]

Check out both of those. And we have 40 year old Virgin coming on Monday. Stay tuned for that. Wanted to mention Miller during this time and social services and connecting with friends over beer, maybe it looks a little different. Maybe it looks like that lottery show, we just had four different people in his room just looking at each other.

[01:33:01]

But, hey, that's fine.

[01:33:02]

As the original light Miller Lite has always been there to bring people together through Miller time. And in a world where you can always be with your people, Miller time might be a moment on a zoom call a quick porch beer with your neighbors, maybe masking up for a socially distant hangout outside. Whether you're toasting to friends, near, far great taste is always close by.

[01:33:20]

It's been great taste of my life since I was in college, as Joe has mentioned a couple of weeks ago, probably the best golf course beer I have at number one. So this house right now enjoying a Miller Lite with friends that might look different for everyone. But we know that staying connected is just as important, what you do with your family, your roommates, your partners, maybe you're doing a digitally. It's always a good excuse to have more time from online happy hours to socially distance picnics and every 500 piece puzzle in between, we're enjoying new ways of spending time with their friends.

[01:33:53]

Miller Lite, great taste with only 96 calories and three point two carbs. You can have the original LaPier delivered, forgot to mention this by going to Miller Lite that come forward flashbacks, find the delivery options near you, celebrate responsibly. Miller Brewing Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Ninety six calories and three point two carbs per 12 ounces. Without further ado, neut princi out of she.

[01:34:17]

All right.

[01:34:18]

This is not a week on on the ringer because we did the watchbox pump up the volume. We talked about North and one of the great one of the great characters ever. And now Norm Pinciotti from The Ringer is going to talk NFL with us.

[01:34:31]

How are you? I'm doing pretty well, even though apparently I've not seen that movie, but apparently I have very big shoes to fill. It's it's tough.

[01:34:39]

I was telling you the pantheon of Noris. So Nora Ephron. Yeah.

[01:34:43]

I used to tell people at bars that I was named after Nora Ephron, which I was not.

[01:34:48]

But that was a lie I liked to tell in college. Were they impressed or unimpressed?

[01:34:55]

I mean, neither. Its like a very niche.

[01:34:58]

It was a good way for me to know if I was going to get along with someone. Yeah, because. Yeah. Nora Ephron. Right.

[01:35:05]

Let's talk NFL first. So I've been following the Pats. I don't know if you know this, but I like the Patriots.

[01:35:12]

There's for some reason they're pretending there's a QB battle with Cam Newton and Jared Stidham and Brian Hoyer. And then the reports every day is like, oh, Cam Newton is way better than these other guys. Why are they doing this? Why can't they just give him the job?

[01:35:26]

So. I think just for for it's more fun this way, right, like make a little suspense, but no, it's just ridiculous. And I think the thing that I think is silly about it is that it's probably going to go on for all of camp like one. We really only have a couple of weeks. And two, there's going to be this thing. This is my theory. This isn't like inside info, but.

[01:35:48]

All of Camp Stidham and Hoyer, because they know the system a little bit better, they've been around the block once. They're going to look a little bit more competent. Yeah, and everybody's going to be like, oh, I don't know, Newton doesn't know the system, he doesn't know the Patriots, he doesn't know it's Bill Belichick really going to have a quarterback who can't change the play at the line of scrimmage. You can't audible who doesn't know well enough.

[01:36:12]

And then they're going to have to have a starting quarterback and it's going to be Cam Newton. And we're all going to feel really silly because only one of these people actually knows how to be a high level NFL quarterback. And it's Cam Newton.

[01:36:21]

Well, also, Belichick has more to prove than anybody. Totally.

[01:36:26]

It sounds like he wants to mess around. He would love to go twelve and four or however many games wind up playing this year. What do you think the total number of games will be this year? I think we'll get to sixteen.

[01:36:36]

I kind of do. I'm starting to I don't know if I like Stockholm syndrome, but I'm starting to feel like they can do it. They'll be fine. And meanwhile, it's like any time anything starts to go wrong, like Matt Stafford as a false positive. And they're like, oh, well, that was annoying. So let's change the protocol. And it's mean. I get it. That was a that wasn't fun if you're Matt Stafford. But there's part of me that does feel like no, guys, this is going to be annoying.

[01:37:02]

And the fact that you had to deal with an inconvenience means that it's actually kind of working. So we can't just make these little adjustments when things start to go wrong. So I don't know. But I'm starting to feel like, you know, they're talking about a playoff bubble. I'm picturing a month somewhere in Florida with me and Kevin Clark just getting really sick of each other.

[01:37:25]

And a month we take two days to get sick of Kevin Clark.

[01:37:30]

The I I have not let my guard down yet. And here's how I know it, because I haven't done any fantasy football homework yet other than listen to our excellent fantasy football show a couple of times.

[01:37:43]

I have not crossed that line or I'm like, all right, I'm actually going to do my whole thing. I'm going to spend a week, I'm going to figure out the over unders. I'm going to figure out my bad. I'm going to figure out my fantasy football. I've been holding it off like it's a term paper in college because I just want to make sure we're going to have a season. But now it's like we're heading into the last ten days of August here.

[01:38:05]

There's no preseason, so everything's out of whack. So it's like all the little mental checkpoints you have as football gets closer and closer and you get the Hall of Fame game and then the first couple of shitty weeks of preseason and somebody gets hurt. Everybody complains about whether they're saying we're missing all these checkpoints except for hard knocks. Hard knocks is the only thing that has made this feel like this is about to be real. But how much longer can I wait?

[01:38:29]

The guy in the next week, I have to break down and officially admit this is happening. Right. Yeah, I think so. It's funny, it's like hard knocks, like they used to use sundials to know what time it is now. We just like we have a hard knock face calendar. Yeah, totally.

[01:38:44]

You've got to do it. I think you can wait until 10 days, 10 days, 15 days. That that's kind of your range. The thing that's interesting about it, though, is that, I mean, I think you can get away with that for fantasy purposes. I do think one of the most interesting things about this season for the teams is going to be who does the the team building and the planning version of that and who doesn't? Because I've been paying a lot of attention to the Saints won super relevant team, super great roster.

[01:39:17]

Drew Brees, Sean Payton, no brainer. But the thing that's interesting about them, and I don't know if it has anything to do with the fact that Sean Payton had covered in March, but.

[01:39:27]

He's been really aggressive about being like, I don't care that we're not allowed to force the players to stay in a hotel this year, I'm going to get a hotel and have as many of them as well. Do it. Do it. Yeah, I don't care that we haven't figured out if we're even going to make it to the playoffs. I'm going to suggest that we do a playoff bubble. He's very like he doesn't seem to need.

[01:39:48]

All these perfect answers, which we're just not going to get to come up with a plan to do something that he thinks is going to help, and I think that's you know, you think about the teams like the Seahawks taking a big swing and making a trade for someone that can help their secondary.

[01:40:05]

And Jamal Adams, I think those teams are going to be in a much better place this year than the teams that are kind of like, oh, what's going on? I'm I'm I don't have complete information. So let's wait and see. Yeah, because there's no like you're not going to know, like, you are not going to know when you draft your fantasy team. If there's going to be a full season, you're not going to know if you should pick guys that have an earlier, you know, hard games early in the schedule or late.

[01:40:32]

And I think there's some real value in just kind of going for it, because unless the seasons like an abject disaster, those are the teams that are going to have a plan and come out of this with a plan.

[01:40:46]

Well, I was talking to your Boston neighbor, my dad, and trying to figure out like, well, first of all, if he could ever come out here again.

[01:40:56]

But if he did, would there be a fun weekend and come out the U.S. Open for golf?

[01:41:02]

It culminates Sunday, September 17th, which will also be will be in the NBA conference finals at that point. Right. We also have a Sunday night Patriots Seahawks game. Right. And I'm thinking like no pandemic. This is the dream weekend for my dad to come out. We'll just watch TV all weekend and go nuts for the Boston team and the whole thing. And that was the first time I was like, oh, football. And there's going to be basketball at the same time.

[01:41:33]

And we're going to like I can barely handle all the basketball now. It's four days. I'm trying to watch as much as I possibly can. And we're going to the conference finals and then we're going to have this football wrinkle, not to mention, do you think that they're going to play the Saturday football card? Because it seems like that might be a belated in play, right?

[01:41:50]

It's in play. It's harder than people think it is because the government is involved. Oh, there's some weird laws. I've heard bad things about the government. Yeah. The government gets a little hairy when we deal with those guys.

[01:42:05]

There is I'm not even going to try to to nail this, but there's like an antitrust element. Yeah. When they can do the games.

[01:42:13]

And so it's harder than, you know, the NFL will always go for a money grab, but it's a little bit more complicated than that. Can you talk about. Give us your empty stadium theory. OK, so it's going to be really wild because it seems like they're going to do some form of pumping and sound, which they kind of have to do because it's actually already really easy for defensive players to just watch the TV copy and pick up a lot of the signals because they they make the linemen.

[01:42:43]

And, you know, we've all watched football games. You can hear some of the stuff that they're saying. And if you're Von Miller, you actually understand what it means.

[01:42:50]

Well, especially with Tom Brady, that I always felt like that was a huge disadvantage because the Pats were on TV all the time and you could hear half of his calls at the line.

[01:42:58]

Rita, Rita, Rita. Yeah, all that stuff. Yeah. The thing that's interesting is that. NFL stadiums actually really differ in where the speakers are around them, so if you have most of the dome stadiums have, you know, it's coming from the roof, most of the open air, once it's all the speakers are sort of interspersed all the way around it. Some of them are just on one side.

[01:43:28]

And that has that makes a huge difference in what it sounds like. If you pump noise, whether it's, you know, you're doing a Led Zeppelin concert or.

[01:43:39]

Doing an NFL game into those speakers. So I just think there's going to be one I would mark in your calendar probably weeks two and three, some a plus coach griping, I would expect. Oh, yeah, because they're going to be all upset about their signals and then it's going to be this whole new layer of which stadiums are good to plan.

[01:44:08]

Just a wrinkle depending on where teams are, because the sound is going to travel in these really, really, really different ways based on the configuration of the stadium. One of the teams that will be really interesting for it, the Forty Niners. There's only a couple stadiums where all of the sound comes from one side of the stadium and they're one of them. So beyond just, you know, we're going to hear guys swearing and stuff. It could actually be like a real competitive advantage or disadvantage to some people.

[01:44:38]

So do you think they're going to have to litigate exactly how far you can take the noise depending on the stadium? And the follow up question that is this sounds like a new way for Bill Belichick to lose a draft pick. I'm just going to start preparing emotionally. We've kind of we already lost our fourth round pick. He's going to do something to screw this up. That's illegal hubbub.

[01:44:57]

So the good news is that Gillette is one of the stadiums where where the speakers are really evenly spaced out. So great. That's good. That's that's that's bad news for monkey business, which tends to be good news for the Patriots. I think they're just going to have to live with it.

[01:45:15]

Yeah, but, you know, that's always that's easier said than done. Well, there's some teams that are going to take a huge hit because we've seen this in the NBA. The biggest thing we've learned in round one is it's really changed kind of what we were used to with a structure of a series where. Home team game one, you got the crowd, especially the high seeds, they always win game one and this time around the Bucs lost and the Lakers lost.

[01:45:39]

They were the one seeds. And it was like, oh, they just lost that advantage. Then you also see Philly's down to nothing. Normally, they would be coming back to Philly for game three. The crowd would try to rally them back. Now it's there in a bubble. It's going to be the same situation as the game before. And I wonder, with football, you would think Seattle and Kansas City, Indianapolis, maybe like five teams, that the home thing was a huge, huge advantage for them.

[01:46:06]

I don't know how you replicate that, which is fake sound. And then on the flip side. Places that didn't have a great advantage with crowd noise and stuff like the Chargers now can just pump in whatever the fuck they want for the first time, they can have fake fans. That'll be better than the fans that. Yeah, yeah.

[01:46:26]

In Seattle, I feel like has got to have it the worst. Just because they already have there is had to travel disadvantage sometimes when they have to go west to east. But then they had such an advantage at home. So you take away the the home field, the 12 man. And then you still have you know, they're still going to have to travel and do the bad body clock situation, so I think it'll be different. I mean.

[01:46:51]

I always think the travel thing is the bigger deal than just the crowd, but yeah, change some stuff. Yeah, I mean, that'll be for the Seahawks of. They have to either I don't know, I guess teams are going to travel probably the same, right. Or if you think by the time we get to the playoffs there's a bubble, maybe then travel's gone and that's easier for certain teams. I don't know.

[01:47:13]

It's a great town. It will. Right. And that's the thing is, is. They're just going to have to say, OK, when there's some competitive imbalance, which again is just not in the DNA of a lot of these people that are going to have to, like, take a deep breath and say, OK, you know, maybe it's not fair, maybe I don't like it, but this is how we're going to have to do it to to get it done.

[01:47:39]

So it's going to be a great season for gripes.

[01:47:43]

My predictions. Well, speaking of grapes, we're going to get some media grapes. We're going to get some reporters upset that they don't have the same access. And we're just starting to feel that this week with people are complaining about I think it was the Packers.

[01:47:57]

They were telling reporters not to say who is first string. Second string. Are you excited for the reporter gripes about lack of access, all of those different things? So as a as a former Patriots beat writer, I got to side with my brethren here.

[01:48:12]

I figured I thought that was always the case. I thought that was just a rule that everybody broke.

[01:48:18]

Oh, wow. OK, if you read the back, there's you know, there's a sheet that they hand out and it's got all sorts of rules. And I used to get that thing every year. And, you know, with my sincere apologies to Patriots PR who does a very good job, I would always look at that thing and go, OK, well, they can get thanks anyway. Nice does access.

[01:48:40]

How much does it actually matter for covering an NFL team, the league, the whole thing? You know, I think that the the access to people at big events is more important than the every single day thing, but you do you build up a certain kind of, you know, does it make Bill Belichick the answer two percent better to people if he sees them in the second row at his press conferences every single morning?

[01:49:11]

Like, yeah, maybe. I don't know where I totally fall in that, because I think sometimes you can get a lot out of it and other times it just makes people sort of susceptible to groupthink and everybody swims in the same direction.

[01:49:26]

But. Relationships are important, and sometimes it gives you a foundation of, you know, stuff to talk to people about when you're in Indy at the combine or you're seeing people Super Bowl week.

[01:49:40]

I mean, I always found that stuff much more important and even training camp stuff that Clark is through, training camp tours can sidle up to people and do the whole thing. And then now that's gone.

[01:49:52]

Yeah. So it's kind of it's been interesting because the people that you know, the people that we already know, they're sitting at home, too. So what I found the last few months is that some people are really accessible, but to actually work because what else are they going to do besides take my phone call or whatever?

[01:50:11]

But. It is if you really want to make a new contact or like, oh, that person's cool, that person's got an interesting story, I kind of want to get to know them. That's the part that I think we haven't quite figured out yet.

[01:50:26]

I'm going to combine to your favorite passions, football and pop music with the following question if Aaron Rodgers was a pop star. Which pop star would it be and why? This is literally OK. So, Aaron Rodgers, it it's not because she's my favorite. Aaron Rodgers is Taylor Swift.

[01:50:49]

I figured that's that's what I was going for with the answer.

[01:50:51]

OK, run. So I have some friends who I ran into on the street in Boston a few weeks ago. They were walking their dog and my friend and her boyfriend and her boyfriend, says, Nora. A few days ago I made a list of which NFL players were which Taylor Swift songs. But then I deleted it because I didn't think you'd want to see it. And I've never been more angry at a person in my entire life.

[01:51:19]

And I forced these people to just, like, stand on the corner of Commonwealth Avenue with me for like half an hour, going no forever and always this Aaron Rodgers.

[01:51:28]

It's totally Aaron Rodgers.

[01:51:30]

But the thing is, is that the more you think about it, every single one is Aaron Rodgers, because there's that combination of bravado and vulnerability, which is just such a slam dunk Rodgers combo that I mean, I'd always so when I was covering the Patriots, it was always like my deepest desire that Taylor Swift would start dating a patriot. Yeah, she lives she's got a place in Rhode Island. It always felt like it was in play. Never happened.

[01:51:57]

Rogers would be the next best thing, although if you want to talk about just like a combination of that kind of energy, that could not possibly end well, like he would win a Super Bowl, she would win a Grammy, but it would take so much messiness in the meantime that it's best that we just avoid it. But it's totally it's Aaron Rodgers.

[01:52:20]

There are a lot of there are a lot of similarities even down to whenever they're dating somebody, how it gets dissected and how it gets introduced to the public and all that.

[01:52:28]

It's almost like they have the same same kind of advisor for how to tell people who they're dating.

[01:52:34]

And then people are always like, really, you're dating that person?

[01:52:37]

And then how it evolves totally.

[01:52:40]

It's like you can't you can't totally typecast it, which always makes no like there's an eyebrow raise that happens. There are a lot of. A lot of sort of flirting with drama, but that, oh, I don't care about this, this isn't me. It's totally it's like the most slam dunk comparison ever.

[01:53:01]

Were you excited that Taylor was one of the only winners of 12 20 so far? I'm trying not to gloat about this bill.

[01:53:08]

So it's her juice world who's dead? The two biggest music winners we've had so far. Can you talk about what what it's like to be in your mid 20s and love music but not be able to go to see live music? Because this is kind of your I don't want to spoil the rest of your life for you, but you're never going to care more than you do right now about going to see this stuff every year, two percent less. You want to leave the house, go and deal with the crowd.

[01:53:37]

All that. This is this is it. This is your prime right now. And it's not happening. You can't see anything.

[01:53:46]

Wow. I feel great. I yeah, I was. So it's funny. Speaking of, you know, the love of my life, Taylor Swift, whole big concert festival love fest plan this summer. And the two places that she was going to do shows in the US were Gillette Stadium in Foxborough, Massachusetts, a place I know very well, and in Los Angeles. And I was going to go to both. It was going to be great, um, first time that she'd planned to do kind of like a festival style thing instead of, you know.

[01:54:23]

Traipse all across the country kind of tour. I'm very sad that it's not happening. I think I've attempted to fill that that hole by just I spend a lot of time watching old Taylor Swift and and others concert videos like on YouTube. Yeah. So it really is, though. I mean, there is like so one of her first big stadium shows was actually that it was the Speak Now tour. And it's it's a little bit of a famous show because.

[01:55:02]

Now, looking back, there are all these famous Taylor Swift concerts where just like a downpour opened up, which is kind of funny because the pouring rain is. Such a recurring trope in her songs that there's nothing more fitting than just the skies opening up on top of a Taylor Swift concert, and it seems so she's making this happen.

[01:55:26]

Does she? What does she do? She calls God. I think she has her own weather patterns. Got it. That that would be my feeling. There's a there's a Taylor lyric that's and it rains in your bedroom. So apparently she can also make it rain inside there. I didn't know that. Yeah, no. It's like a little known fact. But first time this happened was at the show at Gillette. And I was watching a video of this the other day.

[01:55:53]

And it's it really is incredible because it starts to pour. And it's one of the first times that she's ever done a football stadium. And, you know, she's like 19 or something and is looking around and you can sort of see her as she's doing the song, a song called Long Live, which is like a very.

[01:56:15]

It's like Taylor doing Springsteen, it's like anthemic and it's, you know, the crowd super into it and you can see her looking around and realizing that people aren't going to leave.

[01:56:26]

Oh, and this is totally it's like lost to history, except for like really grainy YouTube footage. But it is the coolest thing because she's so young and you can just see on her face. Oh, my gosh, they're actually going to stay and see me keep doing this and it is genuinely so cool to watch. So I think I've been filling the the the losing lover fest void by just like watching that over and over again. And, you know, she's done the Netflix stuff and that all helps.

[01:56:56]

But yeah, it would be nice to have some shows where you talk about the infomercial she had on Netflix.

[01:57:03]

I'm talking about they did a concert. The Reputation Tour also had its own Netflix special.

[01:57:09]

But I, I was fascinated by the documental. So mean there is a couple of pieces there, I'm like, oh, man, we're getting somewhere. And then it was I know that there is going to close now, but that the take away the the stealth take away. From that documentary was like, this is a person who just really, really wants our affection. It's really important. And when it got flipped on her a couple of times, those were the most honest parts of the whole documentary, like when she didn't get nominated for a Grammy and you could see her kind of processing it in her crazy Taylor brain.

[01:57:49]

And then within 10 seconds, she's like, all right, I just got to make a better album. And she was on it was like Belichick was like on Cincinnati. She was. But for ten seconds she was completely devastated. And then she snapped out of it. And I look, I don't know if they rehearsed that or whether how authentic that was, whether that was actually what happened.

[01:58:08]

But to me, that was the most fascinating part for sure. Yeah. And I was that's I mean, I have a list of questions that I would love to ask her if I could ever, like, give her truth serum. And that's absolutely one of them is is does she think that reputation, which is the album that she learned, didn't get nominated? Was a failure because commercially it was not at her normal level of success. Critically, it ended up doing pretty well.

[01:58:36]

I really like that album. I think it's cool. I get that it's not for everybody. It's not something you turn on in the middle of the afternoon when you're, you know, trying to get some work done or whatever. But it's experimental. It's really interesting. She tries on a lot of styles. Not all of them fit, but she just does stuff. And it's actually been interesting to me to see how people have responded to the new album folklore because.

[01:59:04]

I think there's a little bit of unpacking to do about our collective relationship with genre. Just because of the seriousness that we confer on anything that's kind of like indie vibes, yeah, people woke up that morning and they saw Greyscale photograph on Instagram and lower case track titles and, you know, the National and Bonnie there and I think decided, oh, this is going to be Taylor Swift doing sophisticated music. And I really like the album. I think it's really good, but I don't think that's right.

[01:59:42]

I think she's made more interesting and sophisticated choices on songs, you know. Like, I knew you were trouble, which like in you know, it was not the first big mainstream pop song to incorporate dubstep by any means, but it was in a really big place and it was still pretty early in that being what we heard on the radio. Yeah.

[02:00:07]

And stuff like that that, you know, it's it's poppy. It's girly. It's silly. It's campy. I think there's a little bit of a weird thing that happens where where it feels like that can't be sophisticated by definition, but something like this, where it's it's derived from folk music and it's Singer-Songwriter. It has to be.

[02:00:29]

And that's always been a little bit strange to me because, again, I just think there are some there are some really considered and interesting choices on those songs that are are silly or campy or just fall in a different you know, they're for a different purpose. They're for a party. They're not for an afternoon drive. But I don't to me, that doesn't match up. That doesn't mean that they're less serious. So that that's been an interesting journey, just seeing how people reacted to folklore, because I really like it, but I just don't think it's the most sophisticated music she's ever made.

[02:01:02]

But it had a great photo, the Springstein thing. That's it's interesting you brought him up because, I mean, I think he was the best at this specific thing, which was at least for the first 20 years where he'd put an album out. And there was always a specific reason he did it and you got it right away. And it always had a vibe. And like when he put out Nebraska, it was like, oh, my God, it was so depressing.

[02:01:27]

And it just all the lyrics and all that. But it was very intentional because the next album that he put out was Born in the USA, which is this big, huge patriotic album. And then it goes the other way with Tunnel of Love, which was the next album, which was basically about him falling in love with somebody and getting his heart broken.

[02:01:44]

And the three albums are so different. But, you know, it was intentional. And it does seem like she has a little bit of that where each album she's doing, there's a specific reason she wants to do it. Now, I never know with her how calculated all of it is, because I don't think with Springsteen, I don't think he was thinking of it from a marketing. Perception standpoint, it was just whatever kind of mood he was in and with her, it seems like a combo of mood, plus what she's probably learned from Madonna and some of these other people who have to constantly reinvent themselves.

[02:02:16]

So she's like trying to tweak the public character and whatever point of of her career she's at musically with the choice.

[02:02:26]

But I think she's navigated that as well as probably anybody in the Internet era. She's always been able to stay interesting, which most people can't do it. They can't do it for more than five years. Yeah, I mean, this is this is always what it you know, what it comes down to for me with Taylor is that this is her eighth album. Yeah, I think they've all been really good. And there is not a lot of people in my lifetime that have done that like eight huge albums that all made a big impact.

[02:02:58]

All did different things, all have songs that people still remember and still play like that. Some people don't even get data. Some people don't get to four albums, right? Yeah, she's impressive, I got to say, it's been interesting watching my daughter's relationship with her, too, because my daughter obviously loves this stuff and she's been out like two different times over the last five years.

[02:03:23]

But then back in, which I think that's a lot of people's experience. But you mentioned the YouTube thing. I do think that's something with like your generation and below where with concerts and stuff really for the last 14 years. So it's probably one generation above you, maybe everyone. Thirty five and under were they're able to see their favorite bands, all this awesome footage of them performing like when I was in college. When the band was in town, you went to see it, if you didn't see it, maybe they played on a late night show.

[02:03:56]

Maybe they played on one one hundred twenty minutes on MTV or like one of those type of things, but for the most part we didn't really get to see them perform at all. And that was such a huge appeal of going to the concert was like, oh, wow, we get to see these these people play. And now it's like there's so much footage.

[02:04:15]

I can't even imagine how many Taylor Swift songs are probably on YouTube. Right.

[02:04:18]

There's probably tens of thousands you can just digest. So I think that's different. I don't know if that's better or worse. Yeah, there's no mystery. Yeah, it's all accessible and it's interesting because I think there's a lot of. There's bands that were either like a little bit before my time, like I I love the the chicks formerly known as the Dixie Chicks, and I was I was too young for them the the prime of the first time around.

[02:04:52]

But, you know, there's a great documentary about them. Yeah. And you can feel like you were there and that was kind of you know, I already listened. I listened to the albums, but I didn't have the. Where does this group fit kind of in in culture, reference points with them until the documentary, even like I love Oasis, which is totally weird, like I'm not that well, first of all, that's not weird at all.

[02:05:22]

They they had really good songs, like they were really good songwriters. I'm not surprised you like them. There's like there are so.

[02:05:29]

Right. And the reason that I feel that way is because there's a good oasis. Doc, you can see how people respond to them. You can see how wacky they are. You can see them fighting and you can see them performing. And I do think that, you know. I don't think that we're going to see really anybody who's reached a certain level not think about. How do I get this on video, how do I get this on some sort of platform so that people can consume it in that way?

[02:05:58]

Because even though yeah, like people my age, probably most of us go to a lot of concerts, have some form of opportunity to, you know, in normal times see a band or a singer that we love when they come into town. But it's getting even easier, right? Because if you're in a place where Netflix wants that, then you can put it there and everybody can see it.

[02:06:25]

You know who is this was as a football player. Trying to think, Antonio Brown, that's terrible. No, like super talented own worst enemy couldn't make it out of their own way.

[02:06:39]

The relationship of those two brothers, they just couldn't get past it like they it was so volatile. Yeah, it prevented them from having this, you know, twenty five year career because ultimately they were great songwriters and they were great together. And it just couldn't last, they just couldn't pull it off like Antonio Brown. I mean, for a variety of reasons, it's not going to happen. But this was a guy who is on pace to be the third best receiver of all time.

[02:07:11]

It was Jerry Rice, it was Moss, and then it was going to be Antonio Brown. And he's not that old. And he's done. He's out. He has too many baggage. Too many things have happened. Oasis was done within, I don't know, six years. They should have been around for 20.

[02:07:26]

It's a bummer. Similar Twitter habits to. It's similar like just people in their lives being like, oh, my God. But I mean, the Gallagher brothers are all the time. Believe me, it was just as crazy in the 90s watching it happen to be like, oh, no, these guys. There's an interesting Go Go's documentary on Showtime that you should check out. Oh, the music, music, documentaries. Yeah, they're the you know, obviously we're working on one for HBO right now, a series.

[02:07:56]

But I think in general, like the The Bar for Music Docs is starting to climb a little bit. And there's we're hitting a point where I think most people who did anything at least have one. At this point there's mostly bad, but then there will be some good ones out there, too.

[02:08:12]

So that's the thing is that there is I think there was a whole wave of just let's get something out, always super infomercial. Like, you know, there's something about, yeah, that's most Backstreet Boys or whatever. And that happened really quickly. But I hope that people start kind of revisiting those and doing them for real, because there's a whole I think there's a whole way of of of, you know, the pop stuff that I grew up with, which is sort of late boy bands, Britney era into the Avril Lavigne, Ashlee Simpson, kind of like female driven pop that there is a lot there.

[02:08:57]

And I think at the time it was just as just such like a sort of US Weekly era. Who are they dating? What's going on, what's the drama, who's having a falling out, who's dating Wilmer Valderrama this week that no one really ever asked the questions of like, OK, where are these people being placed within pop music? Like, who are the influences?

[02:09:19]

What's what's the goal here? Like what what? You know, there were people sitting in rooms thinking about what they wanted out of those careers for those people. And those people themselves had their own goals and their own musical interests and on things that they wanted to accomplish. And I just think it's super. I mean, I think it's starting to happen, but it's totally wide open. There's so many forces in play to prevent somebody from doing a documentary, which is something we've been doing for the last couple of years.

[02:09:50]

But, you know, you have the company that owns the music. Sometimes it's a different person that owns some of the IP, but then you have the actual artist and the people protecting them. So, you know, like the in an unbelievable documentary would be Britney Spears. Right. You could do a whole documentary built around Britney Spears and Justin Timberlake and her at the peak. And then when it unravels and it would be an unbelievable two hours of somebody, it correctly guess what?

[02:10:20]

It will never happen. Nobody will ever see that documentary because he's not going to be in it. He's not getting interviewed for it. She's not getting interviewed, period. And then the people around her will be like, yeah, we're not doing this.

[02:10:31]

So it's just this idea that's just kind of over here and in the ether that will just never happen.

[02:10:37]

And meanwhile, would be amazing. I wonder if maybe people do books, maybe that's a little easier or maybe it'll be us doing an audio podcast about it.

[02:10:46]

Who knows someday. I know. This is a pleasure. Well, I hope your first best podcast experience. Well, we can hear you on Sunday nights with Clark and then popping up a couple other times on a couple of different Behringer feeds right there. And plus, we can read you on the website Ringa dot com. Absolutely. Bingo. All right.

[02:11:06]

Good to see you. Thank you. All right, thanks to Spotify, thanks to Fandor, thanks to simply say, remember, they have everything you need to protect your home with none of the drawbacks of traditional home security. You can set it up yourself in under an hour. No technician required no contract, no push the sales guys, no hidden fees, no fine print. All of it starts at fifty dollars a month. Had to simply sitcom's that get a free HD camera for my listeners.

[02:11:29]

Simple dotcom simple set for to us. See you this weekend. We'll be back Sunday night and to let.