Hey, I'm Robert Vinlo, and I'm from New York Times Games, and I'm here talking to people about Wurtle and the Wurtle Archive. Do you all play Wurtle? Yeah. I have something exciting to show you. Okay. It's the Wurtle Archive. Oh. If I miss it, I can go back. A hundred %.

Oh, that's sick.

Now you can play every Wurtle that has ever existed. There's like a thousand puzzles. Oh my God, I love it. Amazing. New York Times game subscribers can now access the entire Wurtle archive. Find out more at nytimes. Com/games. Hey, it's Michael. For an upcoming episode of The Daily, we want to hear from those of you who work for the federal government or recently lost your job inside the federal government. We want to know what your work and your workplace What does it feel like right now. Has the work changed? Has the culture changed? What about it feels different? Is it big things, small things? How do you feel about these changes? And how do your colleagues feel about them? Basically, what's it like? Details are really helpful. When was the moment that you realized things were changing? Where were you? What happened? How did you react? How did you feel? We understand that a lot of people are nervous about going on the record. We can keep names anonymous, and we can limit identifying information, but we are a podcast, so people will hear your voice. Just to be clear, we won't disclose your information to anyone.

If you want to share your experience, even just a few lines, record a voice memo and email it to us at thedaily@nytimes. Com. That's thedaily@nytimes. Com with the subject line, Federal Worker Experience. Or you can reach out through the New York Times Anonymous Tip Form at nytimes. Com/tips. If you use that method, please mention The Daily. If possible, please let us know which agency you work for. Okay, now, here's this week's episode of The Interview.

From the New York Times, this is The Interview. I'm David Markezi. So many of Denzel Washington's greatest performances have been defined by a riveting sense of authority, an absence of any pandering or need to be liked. There's something deep down inside his characters that feels unassailable, a little A little anigmatic, and theirs alone. The same steely qualities that have helped Washington become a legend, also, as I learned firsthand, make for an unusual and unusually complicated conversationalist. The first of our two discussions was done remotely. He was at a photo studio in Los Angeles as the fires were still raging there, and I was home in New Jersey. This discussion felt as if it were being conducted entirely on his terms. Or let me put it like this, I didn't feel like we ever figured out how to connect. The second time we talked, a little over a week later, things were different. I met him in person at a space in Manhattan where he was rehearsing for a rare Broadway appearance. He's playing Othello in a new production that co-stars Jake Gilenhall Ezeago, and is directed by the Tony Award winner, Kenny Leon. I can't really say why with any certainty, but things just felt easier with him this time.

What I do know, though, is that after it was all over, I was left with an experience just as memorable as of his performances. Here's my conversation with Denzel Washington. Hello, I'm David.

How are you, David Denzel?

Nice to meet you.

Pleasure.

Just to start, I saw that right at the end of last year, you were baptized and earned your minister's license?

I got baptized, and I have to now take courses to obtain a license. But I did get baptized, but I'm not an ordained minister.

Can you tell me about the decision to go through that process at this point in your life?

I went for a ride one day, and I decided to go up to Harlem. I was in Manhattan. I decided to get my car and drive up to Harlem. And riding around, thinking of the places where my mother lived. I stopped in front of the church that my mother grew up in, and the door was cracked. So I went in, and they were celebrating the young students, members of the church that were going to college. I got involved in that One thing led to another, and whatever it was, weeks later, months later, I got baptized.

Your father was a preacher, is that right?

Yes.

Do you feel like you're following in a family tradition in some sense or connecting with him?

It was prophesied in my youth that I would travel the world and preach or speak to millions of people. I used to think that I was doing that through my work. Now, I'm trying to be a bit more specific about speaking about my faith.

I've seen you refer to the prophecy. Can you tell folks the story?

Well, a woman was sitting in my mother's beauty shop in March 1975. The reason I was in there was because I'd flunked out of college.

This is Mount Vernon, New York, right?

Yeah, I was up in Mount Vernon, and I was told to take a semester off from school to think about what I wanted to do. Every time I looked up in the mirror, I saw this woman looking at me, and she said she was having a prophecy. She said I would travel the world and preach to millions people. She didn't say anything about me being an actor or getting back in school, but I have traveled the world, and I am speaking more and more.

Was your gift for acting and the career that you've had, do you feel like any message was being delivered through that, or was acting totally... Did it turn out that it was totally separate from the- No, I wouldn't say it's either or.

I separate one, nor do I categorize. But it's definitely given me the platform to speak.

Do you think there might come a time when you move to speaking mostly through a ministry and not through acting?

I don't know. I don't know.

This is just a bit of a shot in the dark that it's based on just some reading I was doing that I think sparked some connections for me. But I was just reading, it was a book by James Baldwin called The Devil Finds Work. In there, he makes connections between the church and theater. Does that comparison ring true for you? Do you see similarities between the church and theater?

The universal stems from the specific, so you got to be more specific. In what way?

He says both are about people experiencing an event together, communally creating the event as it happens, when all these people are together in the moment experiencing the same thing. It sounds like James Waldwin is saying there is an energy and a spirit that is created that for him was similar between the church and the theater. I can agree with that.

I agree with that.

The reason, of course, I ask about theater is because you're going back to the theater to do Othello. Can you tell me about the rewards for you of doing Shakespeare?

It's 48 years between... I played Othello at 22, and I'm going back at 70. The challenge of that. I love the theater. I started in the theater. I learned to act on stage. As an actor, I think that still gives me the greatest joy is acting on stage as opposed to acting in movies.

That's a thing that I've heard actors say a fair bit that there is an energy or a joy that comes from doing theatrical-In immediacy. Yeah. I'm wondering if you can help someone like me who has no experience acting understand the emotional difference of performing in the different mediums.

Film is a director's medium. No matter what you do as an actor, the director/editor decides whether it's in the movie or not. Theater is an actor's medium. Once the curtain goes up, it's between us and the audience. They tell you how they feel that night.

You've been acting for a pretty long time now. A long time. How has your relationship to acting changed?

The lines are more frightening now. No. I I like to think I know a lot more at 70 years old than I knew at 22. Enjoy the ride. I enjoy it. I appreciate it more, that's for sure.

What do you appreciate about it?

Just being alive. That alone. Somebody said to considering how... I shouldn't even say it. Say it. What do you say? Considering how long you're dead, you're here relatively short period of time. For me, that means take full advantage of it and don't take moments for granted.

I was wondering, I also watched the commencement speech you gave at Penn. It was Probably, I don't know, 10 years ago, something like that. You talk to the students about the necessity of you have to be willing to fail, which is another way of saying you have to be willing to take risks. Are there ways in which doing Othello or even just doing theater feels like a risk for you?

In light of all that's going on in our world, in light of all that's going on in our state, California, in our city, specifically Basically, it's just a play. I'm grateful for the opportunity, but when put in perspective, it's just a play.

Yeah. What has your experience been with the fires out there? Is it if they come near you or- No, just as a spectator and just being amazed, first of all, just the scope and size and devastation And then hearing all about a lot of people in our industry who've been affected, Pacific Balisades, and just unbelievable. I mean, it's going to change that city for decades.

Yeah, it has changed the city already. How so? Well, it just will never be the same. The scars, the stories, the testimonies that thousands of people have now, the loss of life and of property and memories. It is an equal opportunity destroyer. From riches to poorest, it's a sad thing.

Does it make you to live somewhere else?

What do you mean live somewhere else? Do you mean like, run?

Well, it's just the reality of the danger in California. It's scary.

No, it doesn't make me want to live somewhere else.

Let me shift gears for a second. I want to ask you about family. Did having children change your perspective on the work at all?

Yeah, it changed my perspective. Like, shoot, they got to go where to school? It costs how much? How much to clothes costs? Yeah, it changed everything.

A thing I'm always curious about with actors and just artists generally is when they realize it is also a business and a money-making enterprise. It's not just this pure thing where you follow your artistic bliss all the time. It's what you're describing a little bit. At some point, you thought, Well, I got to take money-making jobs. Does that affect how you approach the work itself?

When I learned about my favorite uncle, my least favorite uncle, my uncle Sam, that was the eye-opener. I was like, What? He takes what? You mean from goal? How much? What did he do? That's the reality of it. A dollar is not a dollar. It's about 40 cents. At the time, agent, lawyer, business manager, uncle Sam, everybody else gets finished with The dollar is about 38 cents, and that's what it is. You got to cobble those 38 cents together to make a dollar, a real dollar.

But does it affect the work? If you know that something is a money job, basically, do you go about doing that job any different?

You're asking me, did I ever take a job for money? No, I'm asking because- Because I was about to answer it. Okay, yeah. I've taken every job for money. There's no job I've taken where I went, You know what? You guys just keep the money. I'm just so happy to be. I'm just so glad to be an actor. I don't even want the money. My kids, we'll work it out. We'll homeschool them.

You're breaking my heart. I think you're There's got to be a difference in the calculus when you say yes to Mississippi Masala or even Malcolm X, as opposed to virtuosity or ricochet, action movies.

Yeah, probably. Especially virtuosity. I had some bills to pay. Ricochet was more like venturing down that road for the first time.

The action movie road.

Yeah, the action movie road, which I didn't really know. So virtuosity definitely had something to do with tuition, I'm sure.

Going back to the subject of your children, they all work in the business, right? Was that something that you felt like you had to navigate with them or talk with them? I imagine they got jobs before I knew they were in the business.

John David was reading for Ballers, and I didn't even know about it because he was working with his mom. Paulette didn't tell me. So he got the job before I knew about it.

Why didn't they tell you?

Because I probably would have told everybody or blown it or done something because I talked too much.

Your wife, Paulette, is an actress. Yes.

And singer and concert pianist, child prodigy. Van Cleibern. You're familiar with the Van Cleibern Competition?

Yeah, the piano competition. Yeah.

My wife was a Van Cleibern competitor. Juilliard, North Carolina School of the Arts, the whole... I married up.

What have you learned about being an artist from her?

That it's an art. That it's an art. It Acting just chose me and I got going and all good. But she's an artist. I never looked at myself that way. I just learned a lot about it. The discipline of it, the appreciation of it from her.

Do you still not look at yourself as an artist?

I try not to look at myself, period. Look at myself as what? I got no time for that. I'm not much for reflection.

Can I ask you about the piece?

I don't have any money.

That was my next question. Yeah, I know.

Go ahead. You're going to ask me about what?

The first-person piece you did for Esquire last year, tied to Gladiator 2. You talked... It was a, almost like a memoiristic piece. You talked about your whole life and your career. I think that was the first place, at least that I've seen, where you really talked about drinking. In there, you said there was this long period. I think you pegged it as 1999 to 2014, when When you put the beverage down, you were bitter. Bitter about what?

I was bitter when I put it down or I was bitter when I picked it up.

I'd be interested to hear what you say now.

I was probably bitter when I picked it up. Not when I put it down. I wasn't bitter when I put it down.

Yeah. But what were you bitter about?

What? Pick something. I don't know. Any excuse will do, and no excuse is good enough.

Do you feel like you have insight into what the drinking was about?

Who the man did? We don't have that much time, brother. We don't have that much time.

Is it right that you used to carry around your acceptance letter from the American Conservatory Theater?

Now, I kept a letter from my English teacher.

Why was it something that you kept?

He just wanted to get all in my business because it made me feel good. It was a letter of recommendation. That's what it was.

I'm just trying to fish around for things that might be engaging. I don't mean to fish around. I'm not trying to get all up in your business.

But you are all up in my business, man. Yeah. I apologize. I don't like it, man. I'm just I'm joking. I'm joking. Oh, thank God. That was a joke. You look so serious. That was a joke. I know how to get you now. You're easy.

I'm too easy is the problem. I was just thinking, can I be honest with you? Go ahead, sure. I just want to be more honest.

Might as well.

I don't know where to go conversationally with you. I feel like I'm just jumping around and I'm not connecting, and I don't know what I'm supposed to... If there's a different- Would you Maybe I should ask you a question.

Sure. Why do you feel that way?

Can I give you two answers to that?

Okay, I'll have two answers, yes.

Well, the first answer is why I feel that way is because the answers have been short, and often people are a little more expansive.

I think, well, if that's always- Okay, I'll give you an expansive answer. Ask me a question, and I'm going to give you an expansive answer. Well, Go ahead.

All right. So not too long ago, you finished filming a film with Spike Lee. Is that right?

Yes. That was your answer.

You tricked me again.

No, I did finish what was financially good.

I think it's your first time- Hi, hello. Yes. Your first time working with him since Inside Man, which is almost 20 years ago. How has your relationship with him changed over time? What was different about it?

That's a good question. Finally. No, because I don't know that it didn't feel like 20 years. We had such great success 20 years ago. I guess he kicked me to the curb and started working with my son. Actually, when I come to think of it. Maybe, yeah, he kicked me to the curb and started working with my son. No, it felt like we picked up where we left off. It I mean, Spike is Spike.

Meaning?

Spike is consistently Spike. I love that about him, and I love working with him, and I'd work with him again. I just like the way his brain works.

Can I tell you the second reason why I'm having a hard time today?

Why?

I like to ask philosophical questions about why people do what they do and the meaning of it.

It's nothing wrong with that.

I enjoy it. It seems like when I've asked you those types of questions, it just hasn't seemed interesting to you. I think as a result, I feel like I've been flailing a little just trying to say, What about this? What about that?

Well, here's your opportunity to get back on track with your next question.

All right, I'll try again. I'll try again. Okay. It's not going to work.

Yes, it will. How are you going to say it's not going to work before before you even try?

Okay, I'll try.

It's not going to work. No, go ahead.

Now you're just liking making me squirm, but that's fine. No, go ahead. That's fine.

What's the question?

I'm always curious about the interplay between the life and the work. I just rewatched Flight, which that's my favorite performance of yours. Oh, wow. Interesting. Yeah. In that one, you play an airline captain named Whipp Whittaker who- alcohol. Struggling with alcohol, managed to save a flight in semi-miraculous fashion. The thing that I was thinking about in watching that one was how it fit in with your life at the time, because it was in that timeline, I think, when you were drinking. I did wonder, did playing that character show you anything about your own situation or or... Yeah, I'll stop there.

Did it show me anything about my own situation? Not that I recall. I mean, first of all, I didn't drink and work. Never have. I'd work and then drink, maybe when I'm finished the movie or whatever. So I wasn't... Honestly, I don't even remember whether I was drinking those evenings or not. I don't really recall, to be honest with you. But what was the question you said? Did it affect But you said did it what? Yeah.

Did you learn anything about yourself from doing a role like that?

I think when you're in the middle of it, you're not so self-reflective because you're still working out the character. You haven't shot the last scene. You don't know how it ends in a sense, not making light of it, but not when you're in the middle of it so much. I think that's with any character.

You're saying you gained some understanding maybe after the fact, not when you're doing it?

Well, yeah, if you're thinking about it, which I probably wasn't.

Yeah. Morty, what kinds of things do you think I should- Ask me?

I want to know more about you.

Okay. We can switch roles. I would love to do that.

What do you need to work on more than anything else? If you said to yourself, I wish I was better at this.

What would that be? Aside from interviewing Denzel Washington- No, come on.

Don't deflect. We're talking about you now.

I'll tell you. The thing that I need to work on more than anything else is I have an assertiveness problem and a problem with conflict.

You mean you're being assertive or you're too assertive?

With being assertive.

You're not assertive enough.

I'm not assertive enough. I have a problem with conflict in a way that because I try and avoid it, the problems end up rather than getting solved, they just linger.

That had something to do with your dad or what?

See, I should be taking lessons from you. Would you answer these types of questions if I asked you them?

Ask me.

What do you need to work on the most?

A fellow.

No, you're deflecting. You said, I can't deflect. That's right. So you don't deflect.

Okay. No, good point. I don't know. What do I need to work on the most? Even my answer sounds like a deflection. I was going to mention my faith, but that sounds like deflection. I don't know. Maybe that's a good thing. I can't think of something I need to really work on.

I think that means I mean, nobody's perfect. Maybe you're not.

Nobody's perfect. I didn't say I was perfect.

Not thinking hard enough.

Yeah, maybe I'm not thinking hard enough. Relationships, you can always do better there. How? Okay, I'm a talker, so I got to work on listening.

It doesn't feel like you're a talker.

I guess because I'm listening today. It's a role I'm playing.

Wait, ask me another one.

Tell me the second thing that you love, not the first thing, the second thing you love the most.

Well, two things. Can I say two?

All right, go ahead.

This is going to sound so corny. The second one is not as corny, but the first one that came to mind was laughing.

Oh, that's That's a good thing. Great. That's a great thing.

Then the second thing is intellectual stimulation. I hate being bored.

I like both of those answers. I'm running with that. Laughter and intellectual stimulation.

Stimulation.

Stimulation. When I say stimulation- Stimulation. Yeah, intellectual stimulation. That's what... Obviously, I need more intellectual stimulation.

Okay, your turn.

The thing that The thing you love second most, I think, was the question. I think the opportunity to lift others up.

How have you done that?

Every opportunity in which way I can. Sometimes with a dime, sometimes with a dollar, sometimes with a good word. I love helping people. I love seeing people do well. So any opportunity I get to do that is really selfish because it makes me feel good.

Can I do my version of the kinds of questions you've been asking me? Okay. How do you think evil works in the world?

It's an opportunity for good to take advantage of it. Evil is short term. Evil always has an end. Evil is always revisited on the evil, period. That's all I got to say about it. It's always revisited on the evil.

Where do you think evil comes from?

We're the only animal on the planet that God has blessed with free will. You don't believe me, run from a lion and see if the lion goes, I think he's a nice guy. He does good interviews. We're going to let him live today. Now, he's going to chase you down. He's going to eat you.

The last question for this time. What should I go away and think about in preparation for when we talk again?

Man goes down to the ocean and tries to fit all the knowledge of the ocean into his little brain instead of just jumping in the water and enjoying himself. Sometimes you just have to have faith in things bigger than our ability to understand them. Now, you call it what you want. Some call it God. God, you call it what you want. But sometimes you just have to jump in the water and enjoy yourself and not try to figure it out.

All right. I think that is something for me to think about for next time.

For next time. Bring your baitersuit. We're jumping in the water together next time.

After the break, Denzel and I sit down in person, and he digs a little deeper into this moment in his career.

But The day you didn't get a nomination for an Oscar, you're working on Othello on Broadway. Are you kidding me? I'm so upset. Hi, my name is Sandra E. Garcia, and I'm a reporter at the New York Times. I write for The Style Desk, where we try to understand our complicated world by keeping up with culture. We want to bring you clarity and let you know why things are trending. Like with story about knotless braids. I went to different salons in Brooklyn and Manhattan where the style is overbooked. We want to take you to the forefront of cultural shifts so that when you do see the former first lady, Michelle Obama, wearing her hair differently, you know why. And that's what we do. We add another layer to a moment in culture. Our subscribers make this coverage possible so the New York Times can continue to highlight the stories that go beyond breaking news. Help us keep a pulse on culture by subscribing at nytimes. Com/s Thank you for giving me another run of this.

I appreciate it. Thank you. We're in this rehearsal space where you're working on Othello, how are the rehearsals going so far?

It's going well. In fact, we have our first day today, which is day four of rehearsal, where we'll start just starting to stand it up his feet. Just starting today will be the first day of blocking.

How much of our conversation from last week do you remember? Do you remember any? None. None. Okay. All right, good. That's helpful for me because I really felt like I was flailing. But at the end of our conversation, I had asked you if there was anything that maybe I could reflect on before we spoke again. You told me this very short little parable about a man standing at the edge of the water.

Man goes down to the ocean. I forgot where I got that. I might have been some yogi. I don't know where I got it from, but the way I interpret it over the years, the way I've come to understand it, is that jumping in the water is faith. Just jump in. You can't figure it all out.

Yeah. But the way I was thinking about that parable was that I felt like in our first conversation, I was too stuck in my own head wrapped up in expectations of how the conversation was supposed to go rather than just being with you in the moment and meeting you where you were. But my question also is, where did you learn that lesson that sometimes you just got to jump in the water rather than think about the water?

I've tried everything else. I've tried everything else. I was reading Matthew today, and it talks about the mustard seed. If you put it in rocky soil, it won't grow and all those things. It talks about faith, that you have to have faith that it will grow. It talked about this. You can't even figure out how it grows, or why it grows, or where the sun comes from. Here's what I mean. Man tries to reduce everything down to his understanding, which is the ultimate in ego, which is if I don't understand it, it doesn't exist. So people don't understand God. So some say, Therefore, he doesn't exist, or they say, I'm God, because that's what they need. Well, I'm like, How's that working out? If that works for you, then okay. I was watching something interesting last night. I'm jumping all over the place.

Yeah, go for it. I'll give you an extra couple of five minutes. It's already going better the last time.

I was watching this thing about Herod.

Oh, King Herod.

Oh, this long special. I was like, Man, he was a mess. See, he thought he could think his way to heaven. So he kept building things on higher and higher places, and he's going to be up here looking down on everybody. And obviously, he was a genius, but I guess he died in the worst way. I don't know. I don't remember.

You also spoke last time about the value for you of helping people. Does acting help people?

At this point, everything I'm doing is through the lens of what God thinks, not what they think. I I would say, I think that's a hole. You go down that hole, you'll never come out of that. I hope they enjoy the show, but I can't. I don't know what you need. We I'm going to do a poll before the screening or before the play starts. It's some interesting themes of jealousy and envy and pain and death. And Kenny, brilliant director, he's putting what he calls the near future. So it's now, let's say, or near now. So all of those things, jealousy, envy, all of that, it takes on a whole new thing with the information age.

What's your favorite line from Othello?

I don't know.

I got two. You want to hear them? Okay.

First is Othello's- Are they from him?

One's from Othello, one's Iago. Othello is who can control his fate. Then my favorite line of all of Shakespeare is Iago's line, I am not what I am.

I am not what I am. He said it yesterday. He's a complicated guy. He's going to be brilliant in this.

Who Jake Jelenhalls is playing Iago. Yeah, because he's crazy.

He's nuts. I love him. He's complicated, but he's already got a handle on it. I can see how far ahead people are than me. I'm not worried about that because I don't like to learn the lines too soon. I was telling a young actor, I'm like, Why don't you like to learn them too soon? I said, Because then I'm the voice I'm listening to, delivering the cues to myself. I want to hear it from you, and that's going to affect how I say what I say. So for me, that works. And to be quite honest, because I played it before, I still remember it, but it's not word for word. I'm seeing where I miss a word here, a word there. So it's not like I got a... Like I learned the first scene last night, in about an hour and a after I ran a little bit with the kid this morning before I saw you. I'm like, okay, I'll be all right.

You just said Jake Jelenhall was complicated. Do you think-In a good way. In a good way.

Oh, yeah, in a great way.

Are you complicated?

I'm sure, yeah. I hope so. I mean, Trying to finn the herd. Keep it simple. My mother used to say that, Keep it simple. That's hard to do. I'd like to tell you that this morning I woke up and started thinking about God. I woke up and started thinking about Othello. But then I said, But that's okay. You're excited. It's an interesting place for me to visit now, 48 years after I visited it the first time on the way to work. We were going down ninth Avenue, and we passed Fordham University. And I said, the first day of rehearsal, Tuesday, I said, Wow, 48 years ago, I was doing a thulal right there at 22. And now I'm heading over here to 40, whatever it is, fifth Street. To do a Thulo again. Ain't life interesting? And I'm only two blocks away from where we live now. And we overlooked the park. I remember saying to my mother, I said, Wow, all these years, and I only moved two blocks. She said, Yeah, but you went up 14 stories as only your mother.

You said everything now is about seeing it through the lens of what God God thinks.

Or at least through the lens of faith, yeah.

How does acting fit into that?

That's why you pray every day. I'm like, Okay, Lord, I'm here. I think this is what you wanted me to do. Now, I'm not sure why, but one can say, Coincidence and serendipity and all those things. I bit my tongue almost half off about a few months ago, and it's affecting my speech. It forces me to slow down. As they say, bite your tongue. Othello says, rude am I in my speech? I said, You mean I bit my tongue so I could bear for it? Well, the fact of the matter is that is what it is, and I got to go forward with it. I have to use it. I have a line. I'm just starting to learn, Wither will you that I go to answer this your charge? Wither will you that... You see what I'm saying? It's hard. It's hard. Because my tongue is... Yeah, my tongue is... And I got some temporary tooth put in because my tooth fell out of my head. So everything is thicker. It's affected everything. And I'm thinking that's a bad thing. So I don't think it's ever going to heal. It's like I got a little flap in there now.

But you just got to use it.

You just got to use it. Jump in the water and enjoy yourself. Instead of worrying about drowning.

Yeah. I've really been thinking a lot lately about David Lynch, who just died.

He was velvet. What about- The movie, man. That was a great movie. I loved it. I was like, This guy's nuts.

But the thing that... One of the reasons... I mean, I loved his movies, but one of the reasons that he was really meaningful to me and why I've been thinking about him so much is that probably about 15 or so years ago, maybe in a little long, I was really low. They were just really struggling. I thought, I got to change something. My life it go on like this. Because I liked his movies, I was in a bookstore and I saw that David Lynch had this book called Catching the Big Fish. It was about creativity. In there, he has a bit where he's talking about why he meditates. He said, one of the benefits of meditation is that it helps you become more you. Then I started meditating about 15 or so years ago, maybe even longer, and it's completely changed my life. Just seeing that one little sentence in that one book I picked up one day by David to change my life. Have you ever had an experience like that where just from afar someone changed your life?

Prophecy. Changed my life completely. Now, I wasn't ready. Going back to Matthew, it must have been seed planting I forgot. There's rocky soil, and there's the other one where it talks about the cares of the world come and take it away from you. So she planted the seed, but But I wasn't ready for it. I didn't understand it. It's been a 50-year journey from then. I was 20 then, I'm 70 now. I'm on that 50-year journey to understanding.

Did an artist ever change your life?

An artist? Yes. So my English teacher, Bob Stone, who was in the fellow with Paul Robeson, Robinson Stone, you can look him up. He wrote a recommendation letter for me for the American Conservatory Theater, which I still have. And what he wrote was just so... He basically said to them, If you don't have the ability to give this young talent what he needs, then don't accept him, which was like, Wow. It was like reverse psychiat. I was like, whoa. But yeah, he was artistically, especially early on, the most important person because he been there. He understood the game. He helped me get introduced me to first agents and all while I was still in college.

Then isn't the funny twist of that story that didn't you drop out of ACT after a couple of months?

No, I stayed for a year. For a Sure. Okay. Politics. I could see what was going on. Wait, what was going on? I don't need to bother with that, but just politics. But more importantly, I had already signed with William Morris. I had already done a TV movie where I met my wife. I didn't need to stay. I don't say I outgrew it. I got enough, and the agents would call them. I'm like, I can go back to work. I don't need to stay because you would have to stay another two years to get a master's. I'm already signed with William Morris and getting work. So I left after a year.

This is a base question, but did you find that you cared at all about not getting an Oscar nomination for Gladiator 2? Did it matter?

I was sitting there smiling, going, Look at you. But the day you didn't get a nomination for an Oscar, you're working on Othello on Broadway. Are you kidding me? I'm so upset. I'm happy for all that did, and I'm happy with what I'm doing. Listen, I've been around too long, and I got, I don't want to say other fish to fry, but there's a reality at this age. Going back to what I was saying in the My understanding of wisdom is understanding. I'm getting wiser, working on talking less, and learning to understand more. That's exciting.

Is there anything you want people to take away from this interview?

Believe in something greater than yourself. Believe. It's a complicated world. There's too much information coming at us from too many places, good and bad, for us to think that we can reduce it all to our level of understanding with our little brain. We are being forced to have faith. However you interpret that, we are being forced by our circumstances. Look at the world. What does it give you every day? Fires, death, murder, politics, dictators, this, that, division, separation. I'm right, you're wrong. Look at the world we've created for ourselves. That's all I got to say.

Mr. Washington, thank you for taking all the time to talk with me. This was a challenge, and I appreciate you making it a challenge. It was good for me. It was good for me.

Tell me again the name of the David Lynch book.

Oh, yeah. Catching the Big Fish. Catching the Big Fish. I'll email- Give me a copy of it. I'll send you a copy.

A hard copy. I'm still analog. I read a book. Can you read a book from a phone? Never. Never, right?

All right, get to work. Yeah.

All God bless you guys. Enjoy your day.

That's Denzel Washington. Othello begins previews later this month. This conversation was produced by Wyatt Orm. It was edited by Annabelle Bacon, mixing by Affim Shapiro. Original music by Dan Powell, Alicia Baetoub, and Marion Lozano. Photography by Devon Yalkin. Our senior Booker is Priya Matthew, and Seth Kelly is our senior producer. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Special thanks to Rory Walsh, Ronan Borelli, Jeffrey Miranda, nick Pitman, Maddie Macielo, Jake Silverstein, Paula Schumann, and Sam Dolnik. If you like what you're hearing, follow or subscribe to the interview wherever you get your podcasts. To read or listen to any of our conversations, you can always go to nytimes. Com/theinterview, and you can email us anytime at theinterview@nytimes. Com. Next week, Lulu Talks with Senator Ruben Gallegos. Ego. I'm David Marquezi, and this is the interview from the New York Times.