Transcribe your podcast
[00:00:00]

This is the down labor part, sure, we've still got Sparkasse. John, I see you have a Grateful Dead hat on, you did it. I am. Yes. Yes, I am. A massive debt wall that we are kindred spirits, my friend. We are. We are. We are. All right.

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So Jake Sherman is the founder of Punchbowl News and also NBC News MSNBC contributor. He's the author of The Hill to Die On. It's the New York Times bestseller. Thank you, Jake, for being on with us. You're in Washington. I can't even imagine what that was like yesterday. So please tell us what it was like to be there.

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Yeah, listen, I'm in the Capitol right now, actually, as we speak. And it was it was pretty surreal.

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So I've been coming up to the Capitol for the last 11 years. I've been a reporter. I was at Politico for 11 years, just went out on my own, which you guys know something about. And I started my own publication with a couple of colleagues. And this is our first week, actually, this is our launch week. And Democrats took control of the Senate. And obviously we had this this insurrection yesterday. So let's not call it anything besides what it is.

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It's a mob. It's an insurrection. It's a it's a complete disaster. And I was sitting here right at this desk and we started we were watching on the TVs here, watching the crowd outside get closer and closer and listen. The Capitol Police force is one of the largest police forces in the country, if not the largest. And so we always kind of take it for granted and say, listen, we're going to be fine. This is the most secure building in the world.

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But once they breach those those barricades outside the Capitol, we knew we were in trouble. And listen, we were sitting ducks. I mean, we weren't evacuated from this room that I'm in right now until about five o'clock yesterday. And we were we were extricated, so to speak, by obviously by police officers. We saw SWAT teams that are outside of our door. We had we had people banging down our door upstairs. There's an upstairs level to our to our press gallery here.

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And it was scary. It was really scary because there was nothing we could do, nothing we could do, nothing we could say. I mean, people were people were armed. A woman was shot. I mean, I'm just right here. I'm probably five hundred feet from the House floor, from the House chamber. And we heard gunshots. We heard bangs. We assumed they were gunshots because we knew that shots were fired. So, listen, I am I'm grateful to be OK.

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I'm thankful to be OK. But like, we have a job to do in the Capitol where we we cover Congress, we cover politics, we cover government.

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And here we are, Jake. We just got done talking to John Amaechi and Stan Van Gundy. And I will remind the audience and apologies that we're just sort of pumping all this stuff out because we literally are only going to be here today. And we believe that this topic is going to be here for a long time. And so we wanted to give you two days worth of shows in one day. And so this is somebody who is there in an uncomfortable position.

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And I'm curious, how did we get here? How did we get it? So take it's so hard to answer. How the hell did we get here? I don't know the answer.

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I don't know if we've we fully understand that. I mean, listen, so the president has said for a very long time that the election system in this country is is rigged, is not appropriate, is is fraudulent. And he has suggested I mean, I can say this for you. I'm a non partisan. I'm I got to get Republicans and Democrats to talk to me or else I don't get paid and I don't have a job. So it's not good for me to be on either side of the equation here.

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But the president lied to his supporters. The he suggested that the Congress would do something that it cannot and should not do. So they lost two elections in Georgia because the president undermined the faith and in the in the election system. And then he told the supporters to come to Washington and pressure Congress to overturn the election. And and they couldn't do that. So he told these protesters who were outside of the White House at a rally he was hosting, that they should march to the capital.

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And and Rudy Giuliani suggested they should take up arms or something like that or battle to win. And and that's those are words that his his his supporters take seriously. And and I don't know I don't know. He deserves blame. Like, let's not let's not mince words here. The president is to blame for people coming to the capital and tearing the place apart and end the bargain for a lot of Republicans and I'm writing about this now is up, right?

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The bargain was we put up with the nonsense and we get good policy out of it. And and that that is up. That whole thing is up. And the leadership, the Republican leadership is going to need to find its bearings. The people who are the top people in the Congress are going to need to figure out what the hell they're going to do in the post Trump era, because few people are going to want to be associated with him in the real world after this because he fomented a a protest, a mob, not a protest that that.

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Cost someone their lives, their life, and that was an insurrection in the capital, are we going to make it 30 more days? Should we be concerned that he might make some bad decisions here in the final couple of weeks?

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Well, I think it's fair to say that he's unchained, right? I mean, there's not much Congress can do at this point. The Congress I mean, the famous last words again. But like, I don't think Congress is going to impeach him. I think that I think that the Twenty Fifth Amendment idea, this idea that his own cabinet would remove him was really a situation reserved for people who were it wasn't like a punishment. It wasn't designed as a punishment.

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It was designed if someone was otherwise incapacitated or couldn't discharge the duties of the office, I don't think that will happen. I mean, it could I guess I've learned not to rule anything out or predict anything. But I think it's fair to say that we could be that he could do some things that will upset people. There's no question about it. I mean, there are 13 days left in this presidency. A week is a month in and hours a day is as as as my favorite my other favorite band, Phish always says so.

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I mean, he could do anything. I mean, and I don't think there's any way to control him at this point. But he I mean, he's not doesn't appear to be on speaking terms with the vice president. The Congress is it doesn't really want anything to do with them. So, yes, you have the right and you should be concerned. Jake, what did you make?

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Again, you are somebody who aspires to objectivity, but what did you make specifically seeing after everything you've seen with Black Lives Matter, with the differences in police being let you know, police letting people in versus if that had been Black Lives Matter, we would have seen black bodies with rubber bullets or worse bullets just rolling down the stairways of the state capitol. What did you see yesterday that most alarmed you about how it is and where it is that we have arrived?

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Yeah, so, I mean, I everything I mean, I just took a walk around the Capitol. I'll tell you this. I just about two floors down from where I'm sitting right now is a door called the document door in the Capitol. It's on the east front of the Capitol. You might or might not remember and your listeners might or might not remember. Nineteen ninety eight, two police officers were shot and killed there by somebody. And it's it's a door, right.

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That leads almost directly to the speaker of the House, his office. And on that door, someone wrote in Murder the media murder of the media. And that is really scary. That's really scary for me. I have a wife and two kids. My you know, I live in a house. I don't have security like these guys do, like a lot of members of Congress do. I'm just a dude, you know, I'm just a guy who reports on the news.

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I mean, the fact that people that this movement that that follows the president wants to murder reporters is is scary Jake.

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Jake, we're a sports we're a sports show. We've been a sports show. I just physically got done writing a check for our security to get some Navy SEALs in here so that we have security like and we're in sports. We're not where you are. We're not anywhere where bullets have been flying. Yeah, but, Dan, I would say this.

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The the the worlds of the world of sport and politics has collided in this Donald Trump era. I mean, it really has in a way, the Black Lives Matter movement. Even even yesterday, I saw the Heat in the Celtics, I think put out a joint statement or maybe that was about that was about the Kenosha, Wisconsin. Yeah, about I don't know. But I mean, the point stands, we are in an era where all of these things have melded together because this president is so divisive and is so lets the country down the middle.

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But I mean, listen, there's no question about it. I mean, there were a bunch of people, white people who were storming the door of the House chamber. Police had their weapons drawn. And and there was not much there wasn't, I think only one one shot fired. I don't Jake.

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How is that possible? How is it possible that there were so few arrests? How is it possible that it seemed the state militia was basically letting people in? What is one to surmise outside of the state militia? Are these people?

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You know, I don't I don't want to get ahead of any reporting or anything like that. There's going to be serious questions from the at the Capitol Police about how they let this happen and why there weren't more arrests. Why there the National Guard wasn't here. This wasn't a secret. This was on the front page of The New York Times that there was going to be a big protest today and they were not ready for it. And they were and frankly, they were letting people in and out of the building.

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People were not getting arrested.

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And you just wonder if if this if the situation was a bit different, if the result would have been different, because I've seen people who make an illegal U-turn by the capital and end up getting shot at or you think you were also there for the photo op, were you not, when he held the the Bible upside down and they had to clear just because Black Lives Matter was out there, because the other side was out there, they end up he takes that, you know, that that unctuous bar guy who was just doing his bidding is ever at every turn all of this evil that they're fomenting all over the.

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The vision you saw, weren't you there the day that for a photo op? They they did more to defend a photo op than they did the state capitol being like, what the you know, that it's crazy.

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It's absolutely crazy. I mean, the place was during the Black Lives Matter protest. The city was completely militarized. I mean, in a way that that yesterday it was not. And and I'm still kind of digesting this in real time, that this place that is like my second home was infiltrated and there was no one here to protect us. And there we were just we were sitting ducks. And you're absolutely right. It's embarrassing. It's embarrassing for our country.

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And and you wonder where we go from here, Dan, right. I mean, we're about to have a new president in 13 days. And you kind of wonder what he could do to put this back together, because there is the big make no mistake, there are between 60 and 100 Republicans in the House of Representatives who still follow Trump anywhere he goes and are going to continue to follow him anywhere he goes. And the top of the party is not willing to disavow him and has not disavowed him.

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So, I mean, I don't know I don't know how we get out of this as a country. And he's going to still have followers. He's going to be sitting there in Palm Beach and he's going to be tweeting and he's going to be going to being still controlling a lot of people's messages.

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Well, he might not be tweeting because the news is just breaking now, Jake, that not only has Twitter suspended him, but Instagram, Facebook. Zuckerberg says they're no longer going to have Trump be able to access his accounts here because of how clearly he's stoking violence and because of how clearly even the Republican Party has realized this is an attack on freedom in a way that's a lot more overt than the attack of freedom that we already got this summer with people shooting rubber bullets into random porches because Black Lives Matter was too much a problem.

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But this isn't too much of a problem. So you make what of the news that now too late? Like everyone's realizing it, Jake, the Republican like McConnell and Pence finally decided to take off their masks and lead last night because everyone realized that at the same time, oh, shit, freedom's under attack. And then they decided to leave. But this is too late over there and it's too late with Zuckerberg to this was already allowed to happen.

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So what do you make of that news?

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I think it's I mean, listen, A, it's probably too late. And B, what is he going to he's going to find another platform. And and it's just it just throws and I'm not I'm not accusing Facebook, Twitter or anything like. But it just for his supporters will throw fuel on the fire. Are they going to ban him for good? Because temporary bans don't mean a damn thing if he's able to get back on the platform and speak to his 58 or 60 million viewers, listeners, supporters, whatever they are.

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I don't mean that. Then this ban, it is what it is. I mean, I don't know, it would be useless. So I don't know what to make of it. I don't know what to think about it. I do I don't know how we're going to move past it as we move past him as a country and as a party. Because at this point, it's not partisan. Dan, like when when support when his when he tells his supporters to march to the Capitol and take over the nation's capital, that is not a partisan issue.

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That is an insurrection. That is a coup. You talk about a coup. You talk about all this stuff. You talk about the president says there was a coup against him. No, he fomented a coup against the nation's legislature. So that is scary. That is dangerous stuff. And I don't know how we unring that bell.

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It was. Jake, nice to meet you. It was nice to hear Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham finally hit the right notes and obviously fewer people in the Senate only because there's only because they're scared shitless.

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Understood. It was good to see fewer people ended up objecting to it. Obviously, large disconnect between the Senate and the House of Representatives, gerrymandering a reason for it. But you had over a hundred representatives stand with terrorists the day of a terrorist attack in that very building. How do they rebound from that? Well, listen, I you know, most people go home, most members of Congress go home to their states or to their districts to to electorates, to to supporters that are firm, that are firmly for the president and firmly against the president.

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That's the way our nation is divided at this point. There are very few districts, 20 or so of four hundred and thirty five, maybe 50, that are evenly divided. So people are speaking our narrowcasting right. The districts are either for Trump or they're against Trump. There is no balance. And that's a larger discussion that has to do with gerrymandering and money and politics and all of that stuff. So these people, members of Congress, Republican and Democrat, are incentivized to go toward the polls, to go toward the extremes.

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And it will take decades to to to undo that, decades to get that back. And it will take the courage of elected leaders like Mitch McConnell, like Kevin McCarthy, like Republicans in the House, other Republicans in the House of Representatives and the Senate to say we are done with this kind of divisive garbage politics that pits people against each other and that foments revolutions, foments violent revolution, violent, Jake, they they squeezed everything they possibly could until the Frankenstein monster made of all of the parts from, you know, the corpse made from all of the parts that you find in the graveyard.

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And now they're surprised it turned on them. It took them being scared to realize that the rest of us were like, what the hell is that?

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Yeah, that's true. I mean, listen, members of Congress live in a bubble. They are they don't pay their bills. They have members. They have their staff do everything for them. They're shuttled in and out of the in and out of the Capitol by staff. They have police guards around them, you know. So listen, they have they they live a very sheltered existence. And and there's no way of getting around that. And they don't always understand because they have these super partisan districts.

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They don't always understand what people are thinking and the people are scared. And it happened with Black Lives Matter and happened with the with the Muslim ban and happened with all sorts of immigration policy over the last four years. And they are very insulated from all of that.

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Jake, did you see anything in the aftermath that encouraged you?

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You'd have to look pretty hard to find encouragement this morning. You know, last night, Kevin McCarthy, the House Republican leader, went to the floor and kind of equated this to the riots over the summer over Black Lives Matter and things of that nature. And he didn't really call Trump out by name. And he actually said on TV last night that maybe this was the far left that fomented this. This I mean, think of how crazy that is.

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Maybe this is the far left. I mean, so let me get this straight. The far left colluded with Donald Trump and said they knew that he was going to tell them to march to the capital. And they dressed up as Donald Trump supporters marched to the Capitol and pretended to be Donald Trump supporters. I mean, people's brains have gone to garbage in this country. They read this garbage on the Internet. They watch garbage on TV. They don't know real from fake.

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They don't know right from wrong. They don't know anything. And it's scary. It's the information, the information crap trap that we deal with is just is disgusting.

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Well, Gates on the floor was tapping into these conspiracy theories and facial recognition was recognizing Lisey's and Tifa operatives. I mean, a broomstick could run in his district and win as a Republican. It's one of the most Republican districts in the entire United States. And you have someone speaking directly to terrorists the day of an attack. I am just beyond myself as to how the day that you were under siege, you could be not just placating to them, but ripping them up further.

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Well, I've written a series of stories on Medicaids. I think he's I've laid out a pretty convincing case when I was a politico that he's corrupt and that he's that he's a misspent government money. And so I have I think he's I don't want to say corrupt, but he's misused government money in ways that are not proper. But yet it's disgusting. And and, you know, this is what the incentive structure is. You say crazy stuff like that.

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And then you go on TV and you talk about it and then you raise money off of it. Then you get in the president's good graces and that it's it's a vicious cycle like that. And that's what the incentive structure is in D.C. right now for the conservative right. And they're not conservative. Nothing about Donald Trump is specifically conservative on any policy, his manner, his fiscal policy, his social policy. Nothing is conservative but the Trump aligned. Right.

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That's what the incentive structure is.

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Jake, do you have a theory for me as someone who has been around this for a bit here on how it is and what it is that America has to be and have in its history for this particular ego monster narcissist who doesn't have really very much grace as it comes to misusing funds and not paying taxes and. Just basically being generally being a criminal or looking through a lot of allegations like a criminal who has to have the most power in the United States, how that person who has gone bankrupt several times, several times mismanaging his money, that the one thing he's supposed to be good at, which is be a businessman, how did that person tap into so much aggrieved, white, uneducated poverty to make those people feel like he is aligned with them as he lies to them, as he, you know, gets banned by everything that represents freedom in this country?

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And now as he attacks our entire government system because he's been spending a lot of time just desecrating the constitution, the office, not respecting anything, breaking every one of the norms of the office, how is this person able to connect with people he would never want to spend five minutes with at Mar a Lago Unmoral? What is the name of that? Mar a Lago? Mar a Lago?

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Yeah, not that great. I've been there once before with a source, but I will say this. If somebody told you you could drink a bottle of bourbon every day and become, you know, have six pack abs and look like, you know, a bathing suit model than you would do it, right? I mean, I would do it. I like drinking a bottle bourbon. But anyway. But you know what I mean. Like he says, what people want to hear, regardless of whether it's true, and they see him as a powerful figure and somebody who's not lying to them while he is lying to them.

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I mean, politicians suck, right? I mean, they tell you things that they want you to believe to get your vote. And then they and then later on they abandon you, because that's just the way politics is. It's not great. It's a it's a power game. It's a very dirty business, not corrupt, but hard and dirty and difficult. And and Donald Trump said what people want to hear. And there is a huge chunk of this country, a humongous chunk of this country that feels left behind for very many reasons.

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The information revolution passed them by the. Factories have shut down, the upper Midwest has been left behind. I mean, there's a whole host of reasons why people feel disenfranchised and disaffected by the political class. And Donald Trump told them, if you get me in there, everything will be all right. Look how rich I am. I understand you. I get you, and I will tell you the way things are and no one else is. And the people bought into that and people saw the helicopter, they saw the gold plane and they saw all that stuff.

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And they thought, well, like, this guy gets it. He get he's rich, he's smart. And they bought into it. And and and listen, again, the bargain for a lot of Republicans was we'll put up with a lot of shit because you'll know what I'm you know, on the other end, I'll give you tax cuts. I'll give you conservative judges. I'll give you you know, I'll give you all this stuff. And and frankly, they put up with it.

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So anyway. That's it, that's the reason, that's the reason in a nutshell. And so where does this end? Do you have any idea of 13 days old? Well, I mean, you keep saying that, but but Stan Van Gundy and John Amaechi think that this is the start of a civil war, that there's going to be more of this, that that I was encouraged by the response last night, because I assume that now the next time, they will all realize that freedom is under siege here.

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And while we might be headed toward a place of domestic terrorism, I've got to think that that last yesterday got their attention in terms of, oh, wait a minute, both parties need to work to get this president up out of here, because what he's doing runs against everything that you know, everything that both parties can't agree on. Much of anything, Jake, but they can agree on. This is a threat to freedom.

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Yeah, I. I have I've held my fire on saying that, but I think that's right. I mean, he's he he said go to the Capitol. He was asked to rebuke these people and he said they're great people. I love them, but go home. I mean, Ivanka Trump said these are American patriots. And I said I said, what are you, American patriots? I'm sitting here in the capital under siege. These aren't riots.

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There's nothing that they're doing that is patriotic. It takes courage and it takes courage for these people to stand up these people, meaning the Republican leadership to stand up and say, stop, we are not with this guy and they won't do it because their base is going to punish them for doing it. So I don't know how we get out of this vortex. I don't listen. I don't I'm not an alarmist. I don't think there's going to be a civil war.

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I also didn't think this would happen yesterday. So I so I've been wrong. I've been I've been I'm not a good predictor. I'm a bad sports. Better. I'm I'm a bad I got a bad crystal ball, so I didn't one of you didn't want to to got.

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So you guys thought you'd be great at picking football. Well just because the delivery is so good that I just figure that he even if he doesn't know what he's talking about, he's the kind of guy that sounds like he knows exactly what it is he's talking about.

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If you guys want to have me back to pick football, I would I'm happy to do it. I would do it all the time. I you know, I was hoping Aaron Rodgers would be on here so we could do the Jake from State Farm thing, because that's what I get all the time.

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But but anyway, listen, I don't know how we get out of this. And I don't know I don't know what. I just don't know. I don't know. I have a tough time with it. I really have a tough time with it. But listen, we're going into an era where one party is going to control all of Washington. And Joe Biden has a very, very unique opportunity here. And the opportunity is for him to if he governs from the middle, if he governs and puts these House Republicans in a tough position, that they could either oppose him or look or or be with him and with Donald Trump on the outs, I just think that's going to be a really tough position for Republicans.

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And I think Joe Biden has a really unique opportunity here to bring the country together.

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Jake, this is what I do whenever I get stressed. I put the JFK, Philadelphia, Grateful Dead. Nineteen eighty nine. There you go with a loser. And I'm good to go. Eighty nine or seventy four. Eighty nine. I think it's seven.

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Seven. Eighty nine. It was my second show, The Loser. The Ramble On Rose Brand. No one better basketball is history of a little disappointed. You're a fish fan. I feel like fish. Copy the dead, you know.

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Well, listen, Brent is the greatest the actually the late the late 80s era Grateful Dead is the greatest error of the Grateful Dead. Brent is magical. And I during quarantine, I bought myself a keyboard and I took a bunch of videos of myself playing Brent riffs like I know, I know you rider. And my son's name is Rider. I named him after I know you Rider. So I have I mean, grateful that are in my blood, like in my bone.

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So we have to chat offline about that and I'll send you some, I'll send you some good shows.

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I'll thinking you and I a couple of deadheads cut it up on stupidity. That's what, that's what I'm feelin in man. OK, good. But hold on.

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Jake, do you know the story of Strugatsky? I don't know whether you are are you a Game of Thrones guy?

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I'm not. No, I never got into it. So have you seen and company have you gone to see them? Oh yeah, many times.

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And actually I don't have you. I've seen I've seen them a bunch of times. I'm buddies with Matt Bush, who is their manager, who if you don't know I you should know. But yeah, I've seen dead a company bunch that Stewart gets on stage with them somehow.

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I don't know. I don't know who he knows over there. Do you know Matt also. I know Red. That's who I. That's what I do. Yeah. Yeah. Listen, I love death and co when I see them I see them every time I can, but I missed him the summer bad and I missed, I missed fishing. Listen, I'll take you to a fish show and you'll, and you'll get down man.

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We'll do a home at home. All right. For show on a dead show on me.

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Did. Totally, totally, you're right. Why, why, why, why the whitest dad was talking about George R.R. Martin, who created Game of Thrones, I spent a weekend in Mexico on a beach listening to the dead and avoiding George R.R. Martin, because after 24 hours, it dawned on me all he wanted for me was baseball takes and he wanted sports opinions.

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He was trying to give them these tokens that are super valuable to stewards, took one and threw it.

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It's funny, whenever I go to dead shows and I get to see where we're in those guys, they always ask me about politics. The first time I met Bob where he said, so let me get this straight. You get to tweet about the Grateful Dead and about politics. I said, yeah, that's a I guess that's actually what I do.

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I do you use I said, Jake, do you use acid? Because I do not use acid. I just leave it at that. All right, let's leave it and drop acid.

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You don't use that, Jake. I'll tell you if you want to see dead fish in a whole new level. I suggested Tabac just a Tabata.

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This is the phrase to gods. We're all scared. Let's go ahead and do it. Let's make his dreams come true here on a very serious day. Jake Sherman, congratulations. You are our celebrity prognosticator.

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You know, it is time for a celebrity prognosticator. Let's win some money.

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We didn't ask.

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I guess he offered cold to bills, bills minus six and a half. Who you got? Bills, Rams and Seahawks. Seahawks minus three and a half. Who got rabs bucks at Washington. Washington. Washington is under siege right now. Yes, Washington State.

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Tom Brady's going to take care. All this right now. Plus eight and a half is Washington. You got Washington. I got the Ravens and Titans, Tatum Titans plus three and a half. Who you got?

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I have to take the Titans. Bears at Saints who you got Saints minus ten Bears, Browns and Steelers.

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Steelers minus six who you got Steelers good contributions. You got Ohio State and Alabama. Alabama minus eight. We're giving you some college football too acidic OHIP.

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Oh, I got to take it out. OK, no need to spell that. That's douchy. Douchy on steroids. I told you to be good. All right, you guys all your guys are coming up in a dead show because, you know, you are exceptionally, exceptionally Caucasian human beings.

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Why, why, why, why, why, why? Thank you, Jake enjoyed the movie The Maiden Voyage, even though America has totally gone to shit. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Stay safe, Jake. Thanks.