Editor's Note: This transcript was automatically transcribed, so mistakes are inevitable. You can contribute by proofreading the transcript or highlighting the mistakes. Sign up to be amongst the first contributors.
You got your diehard batteries, the like the rare breed of athlete that always plays with a lot of power, but you could also depend on to be on the field game after game. Yes, me. That's the type of performance you want under your hood. So head to advance auto parts where you can get the reliability, durability and power of die with free testing and installation from advanced team members, adventure auto and advanced auto parts and participate in Carquest locations.
See stores for details.
So yesterday was a weird day to witness a difficult day, a historic day, a heartbreaking day as basketball and basketball players, again taking the lead on their social justice causes, basically disrupt the one sense of normalcy, the one sports purity that we have had outside of hockey, which kept on playing. And they were not allowed to live in the bubble anymore because of everything happening in an upside down America. I will give you my opinions and thoughts on the idea, the audacity.
Of white people in this moment around this movement, telling these guys to just shut up and dribble instead of doing what they're doing because they're cutting off the nose to spite their face, they're not distracting us. This is a favorite of mine with sports fans and customers who got, hey, entertain us, distract us. And if you don't, you're selfish. You're the one who's selfish. If you don't entertain us and distract us because you have the principle of your beliefs and are willing to cost yourself money for something you believe in in a way that most people usually aren't in their areas of employment, having no idea they're being selfish.
That's the thing that happens all the time in the disconnect. But before you hear from me or our show or any one around here on this, I wanted to go to the show's attorney, a guy that we've enjoyed since the O.J. Simpson documentary, because he's a great storyteller. But really, the reason that I wanted to go to Carl Douglas, as we often do, is because he's been at the head of this civil rights fight across decades with the most famous and powerful black law firm fighting this stuff since before Rodney King.
And so I wanted to get the perspective of someone who's not me or us. I want someone who can speak about these things with history as perspective, with emotion, as perspective, and someone who has seen a whole lot not change as he's fought for decades for change when it comes to police brutality. So let's get to Carl Douglas. Good morning. How are you? Thank you for dropping in from the beyond.
We'll start right there. Carl, so you've seen what these basketball players have done. You see this moment in America. The streets had quieted for a little while. You saw the machine trying to get back to where it was some sense of normalcy and now upheaval again. And this is feeling again, like the George Floyd moment with sports leading the way on this.
Yeah, Dan, this is really a remarkable time in our history. I have to go back to that iconic picture of Jim Brown and Cassius Clay, Muhammad Ali and Lew Alcindor, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, for me to remember such an iconic occasion when the world stopped because sports told it to stop. This is really an awakening, I think, and it may well lead to a tidal shift, because in this time of despair, when these athletes have nothing to do during the day but to think about what's going on in the world, they're alone with their phones and their computers and they're allowed to think to each other about the world and they are deciding to let their voices be heard.
And I think that's terribly exciting.
What do you say to the people who are like, just shut up and dribble, distract us? You're not doing anything. The people that you're trying to reach, you're not reaching them anyway because they're not watching your game. So they're not going to not watch. The more they don't care about your activism, just play games.
There's going to be naysayers. If anything, this is really, I think, a product of the Internet. Because through Twitter, everyone now has a voice and everyone's voice can be heard and America seemed to stop yesterday and to listen. I was really impressed by Doc Rivers, this discussion of life as he knows it. Yesterday, Doc Rivers, his father was a police officer. Doc Rivers White is white, but he came from the humanity of his life to say enough is enough.
And his words resonated so clearly with those athletes. I think that led to all of those sports leagues shutting down at least yesterday. And I think many would do so today as well.
You see a lot of rinse repeat when it comes to this stuff. Usually after someone is shot seven times in the back, whether there's a video or not, what we end up getting is a. We look through that person's criminal past as if it has anything to do with that moment, and there's some smearing involved by both the police and media, and then you get the authorities saying things like there was a knife in the car so that we can do the gymnastics that need to be done in order to rationalize seven bullets to the back.
So as you see some of these details come forward, like there was a knife in the car, according to authorities. And I have to say, according to authorities, because I don't always believe those authorities, but according to authorities, there was a knife in the car. What do you do in the glove compartment, passenger side? What do you do with that information? Well, you got to understand, first of all, because I've been in this field for 40 years, that initially the focus is on what happened and then soon thereafter the focus is going to shift to the person that have involved his lifestyle, his background.
You saw some of that even already yesterday.
The law is throughout this country that you can't just shoot someone because you think you are free or because you think they may have a weapon. The facts have to be objectively reasonable. And in the minds of the officers at the moment, he uses force. The mere fact that a knife was ultimately discovered in that car, does that mean that that officer was privileged to use force and that it was eminently reasonable and that he had avoided all other means of de-escalation before those shots were fired?
But officers are given more obligations than just that. You can't just say I was afraid. And so I shot somebody because I was afraid. It has to be objectively reasonable. I could have a gun pointed at you and then dropped. I've got to put my hand. You can't shoot me then. But I was afraid. In this case, the man's back was to turn to the officer. The officer was holding onto his shirt so he had some control over him.
You would never know those were bad tactics, even individually. So his lawyers are going to have one claim that he shot him wrongly, but also the tactics that he used put him in that position where he felt he had the need to use force. So there's going to be two different parallel tracks of responsibility. Either has the action intentionally because he was afraid of that man, led him to fire at that man. And second, because of his poor training and his his actions in negligently put himself into that space that led to his need, he felt to use force that helped either one is unreasonable, I think, under the facts that are presented.
And I think any fair minded jury should agree with that as well.
Explain to me what it is that you saw in the way things escalated yesterday, because I thought as heartbreaking as the video was to go viral, seven shots in the back, a life that's going to be at the very best, simply paralyzed shot in front of loved ones. That was heartbreaking and bad enough. But I thought what really escalated things to a place that I felt like last night or soon we might end up in another Ferguson situation. Is that juxtaposed against a 17 year old armed with a weapon bigger than him, crossing state lines allegedly to protect property and walking past police officers after having killed with his hands up and the police officers drove right past him?
I thought the timing of that with the NBA cancellation was not coincidental. I thought that it escalated things to a place where it couldn't simply be just another video of just another black man. That juxtaposition was kind of inescapable.
And I'm not one to cry. Woe is me. I'm black proudly. I was born black. I'll die black. Things are based differently in America. And that scene, I think, will clearly reflect the reality of our country. If no other scene ever would imagine, if you will. There's the video shooting showing someone who is violently attacking others with the rifle. And as he is walking toward police officers, his hands are raised up with the rifle strapped around him, I dare say anyone on this listening to my words would agree.
If that person had been African-American or Lotronex, they would have been ordered by the cops on those two backpacks that he passed to get on the ground, drop that weapon. It was ironic because all that they were care about was perhaps getting in the way of the car by walking in the street. So even though his hands were up, even though others were shouting, he's the one that shot them, but he's the shooter. The office get out of the way because you're interfering with my efforts to go to the scene of something else.
It was incredible. There was an earlier scene that was also shown last night on CNN. That other militia men, white guys with these long arms, we're talking to the police and those Bearcats, the cops, we're talking about how thankful they were that these militia were out here and indeed they were even throwing the militia man bottles of water. Here we have some water guys. And from inside that tank, white bear cat, they were throwing bottles of water.
It looked like to me, and I may be wrong. It looked to me that some of the people that were there, the militia guys, included that 17 year old with his hat on and that big ass gun strapped around his chest. That was an amazing thing to me, and I wonder if those cops and those Barakaat, those big armored vehicles recognize that guy from earlier that day as one of the people that he was throwing water to that would never have happened.
Were those black men there carrying guns anywhere in this world? I dare say.
Roy, what do you have for Carl Douglas?
Are you going to compare and contrast the situation with the players being in isolation in a bubble to the jurors in the O.J. trial where they are in isolation, but the players can actually watch the news.
They can actually follow along with what's going on in the outside world as opposed to the jurors in the O.J. trial where they can't. So what kind of mindset do the players have compared to the O.J. draws and what kind of decisions that they make?
That's the interesting question, Roy, because there was that concept called the Stockholm Syndrome that we were definitely concerned about with the O.J. trial. And that syndrome says that captive prisoners at some point gain an affinity and a connection to their captors. There was a day when we were concerned that some of the jurors in the O.J. trial were being targeted by the deputies and we would, at certain deputies, removed as the escorts for the jury and the jurors. A predominantly black jury protested, wearing all black one day come into court.
That was remarkable to us that there be that connection between the jurors and these cops that we were complaining about. Similarly, it is a it is a unique environment, I suggest being in this bubble. These are young brothers primarily that are accustomed to having everything they want at their disposal. I suspect these rooms and the suites are sensory overload with speakers and big screen televisions and the playing basketball and NBA 2k, too, and simply watching the news or they're on Instagram or they're on Twitter probably 16, 17 hours out of the day.
There's only so much fishing you can do when the bubble. Everything is amplified. Paul George, who's for the Clippers, I used to like him before he joined the Clippers. He talked about it. He talked about how the pressure of the moment is amplified. I suspect that is why there was such diversity in the protest in May after George Floyd's horrific killing, because even white folks were home with nothing else to do but to watch the television and they were energized.
And I have an idea rudeboy about what these NBA players might think about doing so that their protests can have meaning and I can feel them basketball. Why doesn't everyone plan to use a portion of their playoff receipts and give it donate it to take up Blake's family? Or donated to the efforts to reform police abuse nationwide. Or donate it to some organization like LeBron James is new Volt organization, then you can have resonance with your words that would be powerful, that would be a meaningful resolution to your anger, because George Jacob Blake's four boys would be able to feel the love that you speak of.
It could be two, maybe three years before the Jacob Blake scenario is ultimately resolved with being on television. There's going to be processes and delays and trials, perhaps criminally, perhaps before there's any real civil resolution. So players, why don't you use some of your playoff funds and donate it to his four children and donate it to the struggle for equality in America? That would resonate. And you could make actions really make a difference.
So, Carl, you would advise them to stay in the bubble? That would be your advice if you were if you were the adviser for the NBA playoffs or for the NBA playoff players, the next move you would advise them to make is what?
And that's a great question to gosh, because I thought about this last night. And ironically, the head of the players association, Michele Roberts, is my girl from law school. I've known her more than forty three years. I had dinner with her shortly after she was appointed and I begged her for a job. But what I think I would do is. Make a public statement. Coupled with tangible action, I think. If you dedicate this playoff run.
Two victims of police abuse and then follow through those words with action by actually donating a portion or LeBron can donate all of his championship earnings or Jimmy Butler can donate half of his sixth place earnings. To the struggle, that might be a real, tangible way to put the money where your mouth is, you always got to follow the money you got. But if these guys are not on television playing basketball, they're going to have a far lesser impact.
So if I were my buddy Michelle Roberts, I would listen to all the conversation, but I would make it clear that there is a much stronger voice in the bubble. No one's listening to Trevor Ariza right now outside the bubble. No one's listening to Avery Bradley right now outside the bubble, but ground zero for sports, particularly given how successful the NBA has been. That, I think, would be a great way to reward the challenges of just surviving this experience and then using your your skill set for the sincere betterment of one family at a time, Duga, you can't change America, but you can make it better one person at a time.
You've crossed the line, my friend. And Mike Ryan is now going to hammer you for it because you dared to say Jimmy Butler in the sixth place, money of the Miami Heat. You've enraged him. And now Mike is here to take some of the difficult fifth place, fifth place with a first round sweep. This is a bit of an uncomfortable question because I'm uncomfortable asking it. And let me preface it by saying I believe that one doesn't have anything to do with the other.
But you've done tremendous work in fighting social injustice, amazing work. However, how do you reconcile your incredible work with the public, overwhelming public data that is out there saying that believes you helped get a double murderer off despite the not guilty? How do you reconcile that? I slept well last night, waking up at five forty five to get here on time and said, this is America, black people convict black people every day in Los Angeles. Give me a break.
In fact, it is so unusual that someone presumed guilty is not convicted that it's newsworthy. I dare say if O.J. Simpson had been accused of killing his first wife, a black woman, we would not even be having this conversation because you would not even have had the connection with that case to even remember it. Twenty five years later. Twenty four and seven months later. October is the 25th anniversary, so regrettably, my brother, as much as I love you, you are a victim of the brainwashing.
And because you're a member of this racist society and you cannot be immune. It is unfortunate that even you, as fair minded as you, as you pride yourself to be, have been swept up in this racial hurricaine. That is that I think golf our entire nation. But there is a future because there was racism before O.J. Simpson. Give me a break. They'll be racism after O.J. Simpson. However, O.J. Simpson, at least, was an occasion for white America for at least one moment to get a sense of what black and brown America have been feeling with our justice system for more than 40 years.
The system works more times than not. The guilty person is convicted. And if it doesn't happen to everyone's satisfaction, it is cataclysmic news. I think that's a good thing. My grandma is not a bad thing at all and I don't think I am is going to get out of this back and read.
You better back off, man. I got my you call him brother and he wanted to say you're my brother. And the whole thing got everyone got agitated. Everyone needs to settle down. I'm never going to just pose what is an overwhelmingly popular take because Carl Douglas has rehearsed that one. And I just ended up being part of a racist system. So I'm going to back away slinking away now. Very smart, Carl. Find it no better. It sounds like you just want to watch the remainder of the NBA playoffs.
You want more hoops, Carl? Two guys, I am a basketball freak, I'm a sports freak, I'm a competition freak, I watch CNN, ESPN and the Food Network. However, first and foremost, I am a Super Bowl libertarian. I am a lawyer trying to exact change stream and like a spam and man up the screen. But I understand what's important. I understand the value of images. This is a life where images matter. And so with.
The second story. On CNN was about the shut down, this is with a hurricane going on, this is with riots going on in Wisconsin, but the story is about the shutdown because that is go to the quick of what makes us uncomfortable. If I tell my staff all the time, protests have to be uncomfortable for them to be affected. You got to be that pebble in the shoe for you to stop and take that you are an America today.
Yesterday they stopped to think about what was going on, and that's a good thing, even though I love boys and particularly basketball. Yesterday on the four year anniversary of Colin Kaepernick trying to warn us about all this stuff peacefully and the protest was rejected as the wrong kind of protest, now it is escalated because he was ignored for four years to the protest is about the same thing. But now it feels like it's echoing in a way that Colin Kaepernick has to be looking at and be like, wow, I can't believe that this is where we've gotten when I told you four years ago, peacefully and you objected to my protest.
But Chris has an important question here for you, Carol, based on something you just dropped on us. It always gets Chris's attention when you mention anything related to this. So go ahead, Chris. As Carl Douglas, what you have for him?
I'm just wondering what your favorite Food Network show is.
Great question, man. Chopped one. So good. So good. OK, and then the triple D.. All the on Fridays, every Friday I take the new show, I probably have 15 Triple D on tape. So in any moment I want to listen to God talk about the I'm a cook man. So this is my show. I say you've been the flavor town. So you've been there.
I'm not. Yeah, I'm not a big one on the grocery games. I don't like cooking with canned spaghetti, but shocked. I didn't. If you saw my fridge Rayder, I could get you three three leftovers and make a meal out of it.
Man, we got to get you on Celebrity Chopped.
I bet. I would love that. I would love. All right.
Let's see what we can do about that.
Roy, what do you have for Carl Douglas?
Carl, the National Hockey League yesterday had a, quote unquote, moment of reflection as opposed to the other leagues where they have actually had boycotts. What do you think about the NHL is barely doing anything to promote racial justice?
Roy, you got to remember something that what money talks. You're about the only black person I know that follows the natural. I know you're so right about this. It's shocking. It's shocking. Every time he does that, I tell him it's shocking every time he does it. He had a very important one. Roy Moore, NHL Zeil, give it to us.
Well, you got to keep in mind that there are barely 30 minorities, 30 minority players in the National Hockey League right now.
And a majority of those people had to actually form a diversity alliance, which apparently is not being listened to right now.
And I mean, that's the reason that there may have been a Black Lives Matter on the screen, but that's the reason it's not affecting their bottom line. You got to think about it, man. The polls in Minnesota, the national polls have gotten closer together between Biden and Trump since George Floyds BET. That's stunning. Seventy percent of Americans now think what these protesters have talked about enough we've heard enough of the back to life guys that's done stunning. There's a whole lot of space rEU between the left coast and the right coast.
Everyone in the middle, man, you'd be surprised at how much of America is of hearing about cops killing black people because most of America can't connect to cops killing black people. That's why in L.A., I welcome the pictures of white women getting shot by rubber bullets and the face. Because only when there's white women who get shot by rubber bullets in the face can somebody watching a hockey game relate. Because their mama is white, their sister is white, their daughter is white, you get a video rEU of white women getting shot by a cop and I bet you don't have someone one in the National Hockey League wanting to say something about that.
You get 40 years of cops shooting unarmed white people, white women. And you may then have America be outraged about that, heck, half of the baseball league played yesterday as well. That's the same thing. There is a direct correlation, I will say, to the connection of the league and their response to what's going on in America, a direct connection, I will say. And it's no coincidence. And don't get me wrong, white people, I'm not criticizing I criticize them.
Colin Kaepernick, because he didn't vote. And you can say anything to me about the struggle if you're not there whacking down the tree. You're not to knock that tree down just by one whack. But you got to whack and whack and whack and whack, and that's what we're doing America now, two guys, we're whacking down the tree at lack of it all of a sudden. But if you keep whacking and whacking and whack it with hope, with God's grace, I'm convinced that tree of racism will that some time fall.
Can you help me understand, Carl, as someone and I don't know whether you've developed any kind of immunity to this, but when you see these videos across time, Rodney King, all of these videos that you have seen, because you've told us very eloquently that police brutality hasn't stopped, it's just being televised now. We're catching it on video. When have you most had your heartbroken watching one of these things? When have you, you know, over four decades just been moved to tears because you're like, I can't believe the lack of humanity in this.
It is regrettable, Dan, that I continue to be one of.
When I saw the video several years ago, a philanderer could feel that was being broadcast on Facebook like I was shocked. And then I see the video of George Floyd in all the calm and humanity. And I'm shocked again. You really set into my space when you read and your show started a month ago just from a picture that had the narration line by line by line by line. I was walking to the bathroom, and at the time when I heard you start reading it and I had to stop.
And just listen, because it was repetitive. And it was a narration and the first person and that was the tragic. When I saw Jacob Blake yesterday and I learned that three of his kids were in the car, I was distressed once again and I am sage enough to realize that I'm going to be shocked. Some more listeners have to be attuned enough to understand this is not going to go away. There is going to be more deaths. There's going to be more stacking.
And I hope we don't become numb to it that the visual doesn't strike us at our core as it is right now. That's my concern. On the one hand, seeing all of this said, look, America, welcome to my world. This is not a surprise. And then I'm fearful at the same time that America may become numb to these to these visions and to the horror of it. But it really is something that they have to confront because that's the only way it's ever going to change.
Carl, I'd be interested in how you would prosecute this case.
You first have to understand that the video doesn't tell the whole story, but the video tells a lot of the story. And the prosecution of this case is pretty straight forward. You tell the story from the eyes of the victim, why he came to the scene initially, what he saw, what he was confronted with. You make sure that the jurors understand what the rules are to being a police officer. Every occupation has rules. And because police enjoy so much unanimous support from America, just watch the Republican convention.
If you have any doubt that you have to attack and you have to speak to those jurors who are rule based, when you understand that the rules are that no one, no police officer is allowed to use deadly force unless it is imminent, unless they have exhausted reasonable alternatives, then you you talk about how those rules have been violated. Flip it around, I'm a lawyer, let me tell you how I would defend the case, this man didn't follow my advice.
He had this crazed look in his eyes. I had screamed to him repeatedly to stop, don't go in the car. I didn't know what he was reaching for, but by his conduct, I thought that rage and I left. I had no other alternative after seeing that rage than defending myself and defending my partner. That's what they're going to say and it'll be left to a jury to decide. And then Jacob Blake and his family are going to be awarded upwards of five to perhaps as much as ten million dollars, irrespective of what happened to the officer and irrespective of what happens anywhere else.
This case, because it's on video, because that is the source of such public attention, is going to ultimately be settled by a payment of five million dollars or more because George because Jacob Blake is now paralyzed. The value of that case has tripled then had he died from those same wounds, and that's a tremendous indictment on another level as well.
Can you explain to us some of the numbers involved with making the argument, you know, threatened rage filled eyes? I that usually wins as a defense, does it not? Like almost always that wins. The police officer felt threatened and almost always that results in the jury. Maybe there are civil suits, but that rarely ends up in convictions of officers.
Right. Well, first of all, the predicate that needs to be corrected. Police officers are so rarely ever charged with a crime.
And you got to understand what the local district attorney said at the press conference yesterday. The attorney general, the prosecutor for the state of Wisconsin is going to lead the investigation. And then his investigation will be collected and given to the district attorney and the county where Connoted is located. And that district attorney then is going to decide whether or not the facts are sufficient. That would, in his mind, lead a jury to convict, that's a lot of discretion that they're going to be left with now on the.
So I don't think, particularly when you understand that they've already begun the humanizing Jacob. They mentioned that there was a knife, a weapon in the car. Now, I dare say if Jacob Blake told the cops that there was a knife in the car, that to me is further evidence that he never intended to use that night. I mean, that's preposterous. The cops had their guns out on him when he got up from the other side of the car and began walking around the car.
It's so ironic that he wasn't like showing anger as he was walking or rushing to get to some weapon. And there's no way you could persuade me, knowing that there were two officers within arm's reach of him, that he ever had the audacity to think he could reach into that car, pick up a knife, open that night and turn around and do reasonable damage to those officers before he got shot. So I don't buy that narrative, but that's going to be the narrative that's going to be promoted.
The fact that they say that there was a weapon in the car is going to be an excuse, if you will, if there is a decision against filing charges, because in essence, you have the fox guarding the henhouse. Outside of Jacob Blake, the Kenosha district attorney, and the cop worked together on every other case, you heard the audacity of the comment of that police officer talking about people that got shot. All he could say was, well, gee whiz, they shouldn't have broken curfew, that was appalling.
It was that was so I could not I could not believe I could not believe how tone deaf that was the culture that I'm talking about, man.
That's the mindset that why no single case is going to make it better. That's why no amount of money by itself is going to change. I wish it wasn't that way, but I've been in this game too long to know that no one circumstance change. You got to chop that tree down one at a time.
Roy, what do you have here? Close us out with Carl Douglas.
You mentioned that the family could receive up to five to ten million dollars in settlement money, and that seems substantially low to me. What exactly goes into coming up with the figures for a possible settlement in a case like this? As I tell my wife, I tell every client, Roy, and math two plus two is in sports, two plus two is four, but in law, two plus two is somewhere between three and five in law is it depends.
If it's a conservative area, Kenosha, Wisconsin, so it depends there's the very strong law enforcement community there, so it depends if Jacob Blake would never walk again. That might be more money at the pit if Jacob Blake were making seventy five thousand dollars a year before this and now he can't work anymore. It depends if his eight year old son now needs five years of therapy, because every time he has to wheel his daddy down the walk, it reminds him of that tragedy.
It depends. At twenty nine year old Jacob Blake is going to need millions and millions of dollars in future medical care. He's going to have to have a walkway on his steps at his house for the rest of his life. He's never going to be able to live on upstairs apartment, so they're gonna have to move. He's going to be on welfare, I'm sure, because disability is never going to be enough to live with. I don't know how much it's going to cost.
It may be twenty, twenty three for all I know, before those decisions are made. The whole county up was up connoisseurship may be broke by then because of covid. So it depends. But certainly it's going to be a significant number and each of those children are going to have a significant change, not because they hit the lottery, but because what happened to them and what happened to their father. It is so life altering that no amount of money is going to make it go away.
Roy, I daresay if you ask Jacob Blake. Or his mom or his daddy, if he'd rather have gone back to Saturday and be playing with his kid or take 10 million dollars, I dare say he'd have his life back because no amount of money is going to compensate him adequately, fairly or fully or everything he's going to go through for the rest of his life. Karl, thank you for being on with us, we always appreciate both the time and the illumination.
It is always interesting talking to you. Thank you for making the time this morning, sir.
Dan, it's always a pleasure. You guys have the most unique platform in America. No, where can I be asked about George Floyd, O.J. Simpson and Triple D.. That's I love. That's right.
We've got to get him on that show. We got to get him on the Food Network. Thank you, Carl. We appreciate it.
Also, take it back. Take it back. The sixth place. He'd take it back, Jimmy, but it's going to make the second round.
I'm sorry. They need a big band. No one's getting out of the second round. It would appear that no one is.
See you later, Carl. Good talking to you. OK, thank you, Carl.