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Hi, this is Hillary Clinton, host of the new podcast, You and Me both, there's a lot to be anxious and worried about right now, and it's made so much worse by the fact that we can't be together. So I find myself on the phone a lot, talking with friends, experts, really anyone who can help make some sense of these challenging times. These conversations have been a lifeline for me.

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And now I hope they will be for you to please listen to you and me both on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Bridget, and this is the deciding decade. One thing I've found in life is the way that huge transformation can happen, even in moments in your life when you thought you had the big things established. I was already mayor of my hometown when I experienced a life changing deployment to Afghanistan as a reservist.

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And it was in the wake of that experience that I made the decision that it was time to come out. I was already in my 30s when I confronted the fact that I was too old not to know what it felt like to be in love and that men finally being ready to date who I wanted to date, learn how to open up trust and be comfortable with myself in new ways. Nothing about that was simple. Now we're in a moment in our country where it's becoming more and more common to see people sharing extraordinary turns in their personal journeys.

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I know personally how difficult that could be, but I also know how rewarding it could be in my own journey. It was the road that led to my now husband, Chaston. I think a version of this is going to have to happen across the country in order for this deciding decade to go, well, navigating what's ahead for us is going to take a new level of self-knowledge for all of us. It's going to mean being ready for transformation sometimes when we didn't expect it.

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And my guest today has an amazing story about that kind of self-knowledge and about the kind of courage we're going to need more than ever wherever we can find it. Many people have been falling in love with Glenanne Doyle's story, especially since the release of her remarkable book, Untamed. She has written with honesty, clarity and humor about her experiences as a parent, author and activist, overcoming addiction and eating disorders and coming to terms with the truth that with a husband and three children, she had fallen in love with her now wife.

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She's also helped raise millions of dollars for families in need to her nonprofit together Riseup. She's been an inspiration to so many encouraging people to, as she says, quit fearing themselves and start trusting themselves and to live out their truths, something that certainly resonates with me. I know so many are grateful for your leadership and I'm grateful for your time, Glenn, and thanks for joining us. Oh, Pete, this is such a treat. My entire family, my mom is cannot believe that I'm speaking to you right now.

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Oh, I'm going to call her right after this and tell her everything. So I'm going to make sure to tell her I said I will.

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The style in Untamed. One of the things that I think makes it so readable is that there are these very short episodes, but they add up into a big and powerful story. These things you describe breaking out of and becoming more of yourself as you conquer addiction, as you fall in love with your wife, Abby, you don't describe the world you're coming out of as being sort of obviously and compellingly awful, even though it turns out it's not where you need to be.

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So I wonder that tension, especially for people who may read this book and think, you know, that same thing, that you're kind of bathed in this existence that maybe feels fine from minute to minute, but from hour to hour.

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But it's not where you need to be when you sit bathed in it. It made me think of, you know, how they've done that experiment where there's a water and there's a frog in the water. And if they if the water's boiling, the frog will save itself and get out.

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But if the temperature's just turned up slightly a little bit each day, the frog will die because it's like that life, a good enough life, you know, where everybody's telling you to be grateful you have more than other people. I mean, this was my life. I was in a broken marriage to a good man. That's the slow water temperature turning up.

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That's like, you know, he's a good person and you should be grateful. And you have you have a good life and you have these three beautiful children and you have a career. And we were recovering forever from infidelity, OK? And I have seen some people recover from that beautifully. My experience was that I was doing all of the things I was supposed to do to forgive, and he was doing all the things he was supposed to do to get me to forgive.

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We were in therapy. We were doing all of the things. I was just waiting for forgiveness to fall down on my head as a reward for all of my suffering.

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Like I was just like a dormant volcano with lipstick on. I was smiling and like, oh, this is OK.

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We have this little family that I was pissed off all the time and the pissed off edness came up the most when there was any sort of like when we were supposed to be trusting each other again, when there was intimacy or any of that, that was supposed to make me feel like I could trust again. It just I just was angry.

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Did you experience that as of being pissed off at something in particular or that general pissed off? I mean, one thing that, you know, sometimes chaston, I'll say, what's a matter? And I'll be like, nothing. What do you mean, what's the matter? What's the matter? What's the matter?

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Like, can you talk about the relationship to the general, to the specific and how you see it and who helps you see it? Yeah.

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OK, so if you want to talk about the general and the specific, let's go to the cheetah.

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So years ago I'm at the Safari Park with my kids and my kiddos wanted to go see the cheetah run just like the big event for the day. So we're sitting there watching and the zookeeper comes out and the zookeeper is holding the leash of a black Labrador retriever. So the zookeeper says, hi, everybody.

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Do you all think that this is Tabitha, the cheetah, and all the kids go now?

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And she says, you're right. This is Mini Tabatha's best friend. And we raised Mini alongside Tabitha to tame Tabitha. So Tabitha, the cheetah, is right there in that cage and she and us are going to watch you do the cheetah run and the Tabitha is going to do it. So we all stand there. And she did laugh lines up on the starting line in this little jeep, takes off with this many takes off, chases the pink bunny crosses the finish line and everybody claps.

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And then Tabitha stock certificate.

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She's gorgeous and huge and her muscles are rippling beneath her skin.

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And then this majestic creature lines up on a starting line in the jeep, takes off, and this gorgeous animal chases this dirty pink bunny down this well-worn path. And with all the board spectators clap and the zookeeper throws Tabitha this Kozko steak or something. Right. And Tabitha lays down in gnaws on it. And while all these people are clapping, I'm just like full body goosebumps.

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Kind of nauseous, actually, because I was like, oh, my God, that is my life.

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Well, like, if a wild, majestic animal like a cheetah can be conditioned, can be tamed into forgetting how wild and forgetting who she is and so can a woman and so can a human being. OK, is Tabitha was born into the zoo like she never knew in her material life anything different. So general wisdom would say she thinks she's a lab. She's fine. Good for her. She's safe, she's whatever.

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But what we know is that these animals, even the ones that are born into captivity, they have an instinct that they were born for something else. Something in them knows they shouldn't be pissed off.

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And this is what you're saying, right? This general feeling of like, wait a minute, I know all I can see in my life are these cages and these store bought stakes in these labs. But like, I just have this weird feeling inside of me that I was made to run on open land and like hunt and kill and sleep under stars. However, that must be crazy because it's all I can see.

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And so the gaslighting of Tabitha, Tabitha, the gaslighting of all of us was supposed to be grateful for the good enough life.

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I was suppose, to be grateful for this relationship that I had because it was good enough, even though there was a wildness and restlessness inside of me. That was my wild. That was like I think it was supposed to be more beautiful than this.

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So this brings us to, I think, one of the central themes of the book, certainly something I've been thinking a lot about, which is trust, because the question then becomes, how do you decide whether to trust that voice that's describing something you've never even seen? And how do you weigh that against trusting all the voices telling you, you know, as you say, you should be grateful, like you're good where you are. Don't burn this down.

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Don't blow this up. You had a lot to lose coming out with the changes that you made in your life. How do you reach that level of trust? And what or who exactly is it that you're trusting when you take that leap?

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OK, so I think the way that I would describe that trust is the word faith. But when I say faith, I don't mean a bunch of dogma, OK? I don't mean like a bunch of rules that were made up by powerful white men in a million years ago to control people. One of my favorite definitions of faith is the unseen order of things. So like there's the scene order of things. That's the material world. That's what we see on the news.

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That's the injustice. That's the war. That's the imbalance of power is all of it. So it would make sense, actually, that we would all just be like, that's the way it is. But we're not like that. There's something inside of us that rejects it.

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And all of us have conscious, like regardless of what religious background you were you were raised with, regardless if there's something inside of us that when we see that order of things, we go, oh, that's not it. There's something off there. Right. And that thing inside of us that's insisting that's rejecting it is the unseen order of things. So to me, this would be what the Christians called the Kingdom of heaven or we'd call enlightenment or nirvana or we call atheists to call love.

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The thing is the same, right. And that's why we said the kingdom of heaven is not out there. It's in here. My faith tradition would say our job is to bring heaven to earth. So to me, that means our job is to bring the unseen order of things into the visible order of things. So you could also call this thing inside of us imagination.

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It's the part of us that says I have a different idea of the way that things ought to be and how do I get that idea from inside here? Outside here, which is what you're doing in politics, which is what activists are doing. It's like having faith in that because it's so important, especially for marginalized groups, to depend on the unseen order of things, because if we only look at what's already been created. We will have no hope.

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We will continue to rebuild and recreate what was builded it and created without us in mind, right. Which is why Dr. King said I have a dream because he had never seen in the visible order of things this unseen order that he was convinced he was born to bring to Earth. Right. Gloria Steinem says dreaming is a form of planning. Consider real these ideas and imaginations we have unfolding inside of us.

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Instead of thinking that their pipe dreams, we have to consider that perhaps there are marching orders.

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Hey, it's Bobby Bones, executive producer of Make It Up as we Go, the brand new podcast from Audio Up and I Heart Radio brought to you exclusively by Unilever's Noor and Magnum Brands. The story follows a songwriter's journey as well as the songs themselves and how they make it to country radio from executive producer Miranda Lambert and creators Scarlett Burg and Jared Goosestep, a story inspired by the competitive world of Nashville writing rooms featuring original music by Scarlett Burke, director and executive producer, featuring some of the biggest names in country, including The Cool Guy and Everything Now Nowadays.

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Now it's feeling like one day on Saturday might make it up as we go only on the podcast network in association with audio of media created by Scarlett Burke and Jared Goosestep. If I understand how these things relate. You talk about imagination as a way to kind of have access to that kind of bigger, I guess, realm, you might say, where we belong. You also have, I think, a really powerful vocabulary for talking about God or what some call God.

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You use the word knowing with a capital K.. If I could play back to you a little bit of how you describe this, an untamed you say, why do we worry about what to call the knowing instead of sharing with each other how to call the knowing? You go on. You say some call the knowing God or wisdom or intuition or source or deepest self. It doesn't matter what we call or knowing what matters if we want to live.

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Our singular shooting star of a life is that we call it. So what would you say to those who are struggling to figure out how to call it?

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I think that experience is with God, with the divine, with the truest, deepest self might be as individual as every individual. This is this is just a terrible plan.

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I would have done it differently so that we could help each other more.

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You know, without sounding judgmental of whenever I say without sounding judgmental, I'm about to say something terrible is what I have experienced.

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Is that inside of fundamentalist fundamentalism in any form, whether it's religion or political or whatever, is this need for leaders to separate followers from their deepest self?

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The way I experienced that inside of fundamentalist Christianity was this campaign to make sure that I never trusted myself.

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We learned that with the heart is wicked. That might be how you feel, but the heart is wicked.

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That might lead not into thine own understanding. Exactly. Exactly. So so I can't trust my heart because my heart is weak and I can't trust my mind because I can't live on my own understanding.

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Well, what can I trust. Oh you. OK, so. So the argument is don't trust yourself. Trust God. OK, but the people who are saying that what they really mean is don't trust yourself, trust us.

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Which is different than God. Right.

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That reminds me of a pattern I've been thinking about with conspiracy theories and conspiracy thinking, because one of the things I've noticed, especially if something is really weird and disturbing groups out there, is that they actually, even though their language is you can't trust anybody, everything's deep state and there's a system, it's calling all the shots.

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Be wary. Right.

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They're also saying, listen to me, I'm telling you the truth. No one else wants to tell you. You won't see this in the media. This is the thing they don't want you to know. And I realize that when somebody in that way says, trust no one, they're really saying, trust me. They're they're offering me a kind of the only word I can use for it is membership. And I wonder if actually that that search for belonging that I think is a struggle in so many ways for all of us is actually, ironically, part of the appeal to these groups that are an expression of mistrust or distrust is that they're asking you to trust them.

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But there's also this misplaced trust, right, that we're often called to, I believe is happening with the president, certainly happening with some of these efforts. And as you're saying, has happened in a troubling pattern with a lot of fundamentalist movements, too.

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I don't see much difference in any of it. I think it's all religious in terms of, you know, we just are so desperate for somewhere to belong. It's like that the dilemma of being human, which it almost feels like we want to be individuals, but we want to belong. And that's what I wanted so much, is church after church after church is I wanted to belong. I wanted a group. I wanted people. And I was willing to pretend for a while.

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I was just willing to fine. I'll just pretend I don't have that thought. I do not believe that. I'll say that. I'll do I'll do this just in exchange for some people to belong to. Right. And it is easier. I have because I have been part of these groups. I know that it's almost like the less individualistic you are, the easier it is to belong to these groups and the. Well, it's like it's my progressive Christians are progressive groups have so much less solidarity.

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We, the conservatives have nailed this.

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Right? It's like they are just moving like a school of freaking mess in everything. It's like it disturbs me on a deep level and also impresses me and no one's allowed to raise their hand and think differently. I know I've been a part of those groups.

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And so it becomes very easy to vote in blocks, to think in blocks to the right. And then you've got these progressives, which now on the part of these groups, Jesus, you can't keep us. We're like Doree from Nimo.

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We're like over there. What about. The questions are eternal, the like different perspectives, like we can't agree on anything, which is part of the beauty of it.

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So that brings me to the family that we're part of, the LGBTQ community, which is, I think, an example of a family that has a lot of belonging and also a lot of jostling and can actually be kind of challenging in the way people treat each other sometimes. One thing you and I have in common is coming out a little bit later in life. You know, I felt very strange as a I'm a grown ass man. I'm in a position of responsibility.

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I've been to war and back and now I've got to start from scratch on dating and I got to go out and tell the world who I am. And there was a part of me that, of course, was probably the part of me that had kept me tamed, if you will, for a very long time, which is a part of me that was fearful of being harmed or attacked for being gay, growing up in Indiana, serving in the military, joining under don't ask, don't tell.

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It was it was actually during the time I was figuring out exactly how to come out, that here in Indiana there was the religious freedom, so-called religious freedom bill under Mike Pence. That was horrible in the way that it marked out. Our state is one of the most anti LGBTQ places in the country. But it was also remarkable in that a lot of people I saw a lot of people find their way a little closer to acceptance. And often it was not the way I would put acceptance.

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It was not exactly what I was hoping people would would say. But you could tell for them it was movement, somebody who had been conservative. Some would have been brought up to reject gayness. And you write a little bit about an encounter. I just want to find the page, because I think it's so interesting. You talk about being at a town hall type event in the Midwest, and I'll just read a little bit of it. A woman with short gray hair and gentle, serious face, deep wrinkles slowly stood.

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She wore a sweatshirt with an American flag and with Grandma Puffy painted on to it. Her hands shook a little as she held them like I loved her instantly. And then she talks about this experience of her nephews coming out as this transgender is now her niece. Another family member turns out to be gay and she says, I don't mean any offense. It's just why is everybody so gay all of a sudden?

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And you write about her with a lot of compassion. So I wonder just more broadly, how do we think about the people that maybe aren't quite where we want them to be, but also are clearly wanting to move into a place of acceptance or growth? And does that have any lessons for some of the different political contests that are going on right now where it feels like sometimes America's being sliced up in some people's view and good Americans and evil Americans? And I'm thinking if we can't reach just about every American, we're never going to make it?

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I, I think that's the thing I miss the most right now about free covid life is those kinds of gatherings, because that's what I spent my whole job doing, is just gathering people in one space and being like, OK, here's the place. Bring all your questions.

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You scared to ask me? Meeting or church? Bring them here, ask them, because I think, like, I just really I know what's happening on Twitter. I know what's happening online, but it's just not my experience with actual human beings.

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And actually, it's so much harder to to demonize each other up close. And so my experience is more that people are curious and confused and people are afraid of sales. People are afraid of what that woman actually thought is. What a lot of people think right now is that there's something in the air. It's making everyone gay all of a sudden.

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Right. And if this is contagious, like I was like one by one, everybody's going to go, what's next?

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It's like it's this like fear, which, by the way, is the energy that make America great again, taps into that. All that is it's directional right now. Everything's directional.

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Like if you think things are like, where's this guy wanted to go backwards to? So the idea is to for me is to talk to people in a way that is actually what is true about like the fact that gayness is not contagious.

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It's just. But freedom is contagious. Right. So what is happening is that people are not getting gay or people are getting freer to express their queerness. Right.

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Because some brave person somewhere along the line was like, actually, I don't think that this is my jam.

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I know this is the only thing that's been presented to me, but I'm not feeling that love the. Like to with this particular group of humans, but this particular group of human right, and then that person was somebody else was like, oh my God, me too. Somebody else is like, oh, my God, I thought it was just me. But we do.

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And so it's like this chain reaction of freedom. People have always been 50 Shades of gay. Right.

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Like this is they were just slowly dying inside because they didn't have the freedom to express it, just that shift for people.

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It's like nothing's changing at all. People are just having to change themselves less.

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Right. So I don't know. I just feel like those actual conversations are so are so important to have just these all these honest questions and curiosities become prejudices.

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And that turns into like blocks of fear that people just move into resistance mode.

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You could not have known. When you wrote the book, how much racial justice would be at the forefront of the country's consciousness and conscience after the murder of George Floyd and everything that's taking place in the summer, 20 20, but you write in a way that I think really anticipates a lot of the conversations that were happening. And I think it's a really remarkable piece of writing that white people who don't want to think that we're mixed up in any way in racism really ought to spend some time with especially interesting because you relate it to experiences of addiction and illness.

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You talk about detoxing from racism, and it really resonates with me because I've found that part of what's making this a real struggle among white people, which is, of course, where the change has to happen, is among white people, is this inability to acknowledge that any of us might have imbibed any racism from our surroundings, because that would mean that we're bad. And in particular, I spoke to our police department in the wake of a police killing here in South Bend and talked about systemic racism.

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And I could tell that I just immediately lost most of the white officers I was speaking to because they felt that I was telling them that they were bad. But you say in America, there are not two kinds of people, racists and non racists. There are three kinds of people, those poisoned by racism and actively choosing to spread those poisoned by racism and actively trying to detox and those poisoned by racism who deny its very existence inside them. And I feel like that breaks us out of this idea that the only people who are involved in racism or have any responsibility when it comes to racism are the Confederate flag waving, militant, consciously racist racists.

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And actually, there's a much wider group of people who, as though overcoming an illness, need to change. You also say we must decide that admitting to being poisoned by racism is not a moral failing. But denying we have poison in us certainly is. So I'd love to know how you reached this understanding. And also, has your understanding changed between when this book was published earlier this year and now when there have been so many new and and different conversations, hopefully better and more powerful conversations than America was having in the past about systemic racism?

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Well, years and years ago, I was sitting on my couch with my two daughters and two girls and a boy until they tell me different. And we were looking at a book with pictures of the of civil rights marches in it. And they were asking questions. And my youngest daughter pointed to a white woman in the sea of marchers and her face lit up and she said, Mommy, would we have been marching with them?

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And I fixed my face to say, yes, of course we would have. Right. And then my older daughter said, oh, no, we wouldn't have been marching with them then. I mean, we're not marching with them now.

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And it was a moment of, well, I would call sobriety. It was a sobering moment. It was a moment where I just realized, oh, wait, I am not the person that I thought I was like for some reason, I thought that I was a person who would have been marching with Martin Luther King Jr.. Like, what makes me think that about my life right now? Like what is so radical about my life right now that makes me think I would have been that radical then?

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Right. So because, of course, all of us white people support Martin Luther King Jr. now because it's so much easier to love a dead civil rights activist than it is to live a life civil rights activist, because the dead one is no threat to our privilege and comfort right now. Right.

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But only 30 percent is that right, of white people supported Martin Luther King Jr. then raised the question right now, it's not like if we want to know if we would have supported Martin Luther King Jr., then we don't ask ourselves, do we support him now? We say, do I support calling happened? Or if you want to say how how would I have felt about the Freedom Riders, then you don't say, how do I feel about them?

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Now you say, how do I feel that Black Lives Matter now? So just that moment with my girls just sent me on this reading frenzy and I found the letters from the Birmingham jail. And I read when Martin Luther King Jr. wrote that the greatest threat to freedom is not the Ku Klux Klan. It's the white moderate. Right. Who is more committed to order than to justice. And that is when I first had language for what I was right.

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Was is a white moderate. What what did I think? I don't know that I was a civil rights activist because I was a nice white lady. That's what I found about myself.

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Right. For me, perspective change usually just starts with tons and tons of reading.

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And he says, my life is just reading, interrupted by reality every once in a while. And when I started. Reading a different version of American history than the one the whitewash, when I had been presented, it just all started crumbling in front of me.

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The difference is now in how I would write it. I think that I probably would have focused a lot more on whiteness and what whiteness has done. I think I just figured out in the last few months that there's just like some kind of deal with the devil that white women make early on. And it's not conscious. It's just somewhere along the line. We learn that, OK, we will accept our proximity to power and all the comfort and safety and belonging that that will get us.

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But in exchange, first of all, we'll never ask for any real power.

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We will stay quiet and grateful and accommodating. We will accept things like the protection and safety that the police offers us. But we will never look over there and ask what the police are doing to them. We will go into our kids elementary schools and we will demand nine iPads for every one of our kids. But we will not turn our heads and ask why the school down the road doesn't have clean water. We will over and over again, except our relative comfort and safety.

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And the cost of that will be our full humanity and we will just become less and less human. And I think that's what my black activist friends are trying to get at. It's the idea of don't come here to save us.

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You people need to save yourself. You have lost your humanity, right?

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White supremacy has cost you your souls.

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It's compelling to hear you describe this in a way that we've heard a lot about what needs to change among white people. But the power dynamics you're describing explain how it may also be different for white women than it is for white men who have our own task of introspection, but also redemption and change. And it sounds like the biggest thing you're describing that needs to happen is a kind of a readiness to sacrifice certain things that have gone with the old arrangements in order to get to a better place.

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But that better place is better for everybody. Yeah, or is it I mean, here's one of the questions, right? Are we talking about a zero sum game or are we really talking about a future where everyone is better off?

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I think I believe fully that it's a future where everyone's better off because the same situation that we could say for white men like the humanity that they have lost, I mean, the conversations that I'm having with white men right now, I think it's because now that I'm married to a woman, the tension is gone or something. I have no idea what's happening with me and men right now.

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But they're telling me stuff just like me. And I think that men are so freaking trapped like somebody is right. Untamed for men. Like, they just they are not allowed to be human in any way. Right. The the misogyny that's tied into you are not allowed to be merciful. I like to listen. You're not allowed to be curious. You're not allowed to be vulnerable. You're not allowed to be human. We will shame you if you are the toxic masculinity.

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It's not just killing the entire world. It is killing individual men.

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And this conquering power attitude has a cost to it.

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Yeah, and it's everywhere you describe, even all the way down to the shampoo. Right. And you notice your teenage sons shampoo bottle is pretty aggro compared to your daughters. Oh, I mean, I picked up the bottle.

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It's like Dropkick dirt slam dunk. You know, it embarrassing. Like it's just like is he preparing for what is he doing in the shower? Like we're shaming the community before they even frickin put on their underwear in the morning. Right.

[00:33:12]

So, no, I believe that it is not a zero sum game. Everybody needs freedom from this. Like the victims are the perpetrators. The perpetrators are the victims. There's no such thing as one way liberation. So we're just in terms of a nation, we're just talking about a larger macro situation there. But I'm a white woman, so I'm focused on what is my piece in this. And I think that there's something in it that's like we have just misaligned ourselves, like we have aligned ourselves with the wrong side.

[00:33:41]

It's like my goal is how do I betray white supremacy in this moment?

[00:33:49]

How do I take all of my training and turn on my trainers?

[00:33:52]

Because in the beginning, that's what's going to take and white women are like the center of it. If we start defecting and moving over, the whole system breaks down and something powerful is happening.

[00:34:03]

When we've reached the point that it's no longer the white nationalists who are the only people interested in whiteness, I almost wonder sometimes if those who deceive themselves saying that they don't see color the most danger. This thing is not just that they see color in people of color, but the one area where it really it's true that they don't see colors in themselves because you don't have to think about being white.

[00:34:26]

And if you're white is the default and even that is so frickin racist, we actually think, well, I've told people all the time who don't know they are a race like who don't even think of white as a race because it's so if everybody else has a race, we're just not we're neutral.

[00:34:40]

We're the standard. It's all fascinating.

[00:34:43]

One last question I want to put to you. Your youngest is 12, is that right? Yeah. So you one things we like to talk about on this podcast is, is to really envision the future. How do you think her future will look different from your past? What do you think are the biggest differences and what are some of the things you think will be similar?

[00:35:03]

Well, Pete, I don't know if you've noticed this in your life, but I have noticed that we tend to pendulum parent, which to me means like everything you thought your parents did wrong, you just go to the other side completely and screw them completely.

[00:35:17]

OK, so like, I didn't feel like I had enough room in my family to express my feelings. So I have trained my children to share every feeling and Pete, sometimes when my 12 year old you just mentioned is on her third hour of describing her sadness, I just want to look at her and say, dear God, I have done you wrong. Like, why didn't I teach you to suffer silently?

[00:35:41]

So. So this is one way their lives will be different. They are so comfortable being fully human and bringing me all their stuff. I mean, one thing I am so in love with is it was such a tricky decision to regardless of how you think about sexuality, it was a choice to decide to be open to this new love with Abby, of course. And I had to like really I had to get a divorce. I had to go through some things that caused my children a lot of pain.

[00:36:13]

And that was the most difficult thing I've ever done in my life.

[00:36:16]

And there was a lot of, oh, God, is this right? Is this.

[00:36:22]

And so. A year after I got married, our son sat us down and said, I need to tell you something. And he told us that he's gay. My baby, the one that I got sober when I was pregnant with him and I didn't know, which is a whole nother story. I cannot believe that you can be staring at your child and obsessing about him every day of every minute of every day and be gay and still be so clueless.

[00:36:50]

But that's fine. Tells you something, doesn't it? Yeah, that's for a different day.

[00:36:54]

And a week later, he told his dad and so his dad called us and Abby and I pulled over the car and we were like, oh God.

[00:37:01]

Like what? I was just going to go.

[00:37:03]

And the first thing I said was, you know, I just keep sitting here thinking, what if you hadn't have been true to yourself, then maybe our kid wouldn't have been true to himself and wouldn't have been brave enough to tell us who he is. And that was, first of all, such a freaking generous like response from Craig, from my ex-husband. Just that's just his heart is amazing. But also it just made me think that'll be a difference.

[00:37:32]

Right.

[00:37:33]

The difference will be because we have hurt them, because I have brought things to them that have said to them, even though this makes you very uncomfortable, even though this is going to hurt you, it is that important to be true to yourself. So I'm going to tell you something that's going to make you sad and it's going to make you rearrange your thoughts and your family. And I'm going to do it anyway. I think that they're going to do that.

[00:38:01]

They're going to know that they have the right to disturb our expectations, to disappoint us, to challenge us, and that they can do all of that because it's a family value that everybody gets to be who they are.

[00:38:26]

What a fascinating moving conversation with Glenn and Doyle. I love that we were able to explore in depth some of the values and topics so important in our moment, questions of belonging and trust, ideas that have shaped my life and work and shaped hers in both similar and very different ways. I'm grateful for her openness and her kindness toward others, for her honesty, which has unlocked honesty in so many others about their own lives. And I think the truth yields further truths.

[00:38:55]

And she's an example of that. And as we think about the decade ahead, it's my hope that next generation leaders take a page from her book, Lean into their power, untamed themselves and unapologetically fight for what they want. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Hey, guys, it is Bobby Bones I want to tell you about make it up as we go.

[00:39:40]

One of the coolest podcasts coming out this year brought to you exclusively by Unilever's Noor and Magnum Brands and featuring original music by Scarlett Burke, creator, director and executive producer and cocreator Jarrett Goosestep. This is an incredible inside look to the behind the scenes of Nashville writing rooms and features superb acting by Billy Bob Thornton, myself and Miranda Lambert. There's a killer soundtrack that you can stream alongside original episodes which drop every week only on the podcast network in association with audio.

[00:40:04]

What media? Hey, guys, it is Bobby Bones I want to tell you about make it up as we go. One of the coolest podcasts coming out this year brought to you exclusively by Unilever's Noor and Magnum Brands and featuring original music by Scarlett Burke, creator, director and executive producer and cocreator Jerry Goosestep. This is an incredible inside look to the behind the scenes of Nashville writing rooms and features superb acting by Billy Bob Thornton, myself and Miranda Lambert.

[00:40:27]

There's a killer soundtrack that you can stream alongside original episodes which drop every week only on the podcast network in association with audio. What media?