I've proven how helpful EMDR can be for PTSD and depression. Why and how? Well, trauma is a real living, and whatever your feeling is real, as opposed to feeling like a memory. But in our research, you discover that if you move your eyes back and forth, as you recall a traumatic experience, your brain is able to say, This is what happened to me in the past. 78% of the people we studied who had adult loss at the time were completely cured.

Can you do it on me? I could.

What did you see?

Bessel Van der Kolk has been described as maybe the most influential psychiatrist of the 21st century. For over 40 years, his clinical research has revolutionized how we understand trauma and its impact on our brain and body.

Your early childhood experiences create who you are.

How many of the people that you treated in your practice have childhood trauma?

About 90%, and it's very difficult to change.

Are they changeable?

Yes, that is the great news. But the problem is the focus is not on helping people. The focus is on running successful financial organizations. Even though I was the first person who studied yoga for a PTSD, which was very effective. Then there's psychodvahman and neurofeedback, where our results were stunning. People are so conformist, we already know the answers, let's not explore anything new. But let's do the science and see how that works and for whom.

What about psychedelic therapy? It's very effective. Have you ever done a psychedelic drug? Yeah, of course. What did you learn?

That my quest for understanding trauma had to do with my own childhood trauma. All the pain is suffering.

Earlier on, I asked if people could heal from their trauma. Have you healed from yours? The Diary of a CEO is independently fact-checked. For any studies or science mentioned in this episode, please check the show notes. Quick one before we get back to this episode, just give me 30 seconds of your time. Two things I wanted to say. The first thing is a huge thank you for listening and tuning into the show week after week. It means the world to all of us, and this really is a dream that we absolutely never had and couldn't have imagined getting to this place. But secondly, it's a dream where we feel like we're only just getting started. If you enjoy what we do here, please join 24% of people that listen to this podcast regularly and follow us on this app. Here's a promise I'm going to make to you. I'm going to do everything in my power to make this show as good as I can now and into the future. We're going to deliver the guests that you want me to speak to, and we're going to continue to keep doing all of the things you love about this show.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Back to the episode. Dr. Bessel Vandercox. You've been described as may be the most influential psychiatrist of the 21st century by the Financial Times. What is the mission you've spent your life pursuing?

I have been interested in how people survive extreme situations, how people can overcome the history of people doing terrible things to each other, and how we can create a better world in that regard, actually. The mission has been rather social, but the investigation has been very much based on what we're learning about brain science, what we're learning about psychological functioning, et cetera.

This word trauma seems to be central to your work. When I looked before this conversation at the rise in the use of this word online and people searching this word, it's pretty staggering what I found. There's this graph that shows a huge jump in people using the word trauma. What is your view on the subject matter of trauma, specifically how we've misunderstood what it is?

Well, there has to be an evolution, which is quite striking. When I first started When you study trauma. I was on the research floor at Harvard, and my colleagues said, Why are you studying trauma? When you croke, nobody will ever talk about trauma again. It's a completely alien subject. Now everybody talks. Everything is a trauma. From being nonexistent has become a total explanatory mode. We have gone as we always do from one extreme to the other. My primary interest these days is not so much into trauma. Trauma started it. But somewhere along the line, I got to realize that trauma is to a large degree a breakdown of connection between human beings and the finicity between other beings. These days, I'm much more focused on how we can help people establish a relationship to themselves and to the people around them.

When people are suffering from some psychological disorder, whether it's depression, anxiety, PTSD, what is it that you disagree with with the traditional view of how to treat them?

People are being taught methods that they say can cure people in eight sessions, which they can't. And so there's still what people learn in school these days, although no good clinician I know actually practices that, is to help people thinking out, to straighten out people's thinking and to make them not think these crazy thoughts. And there really is no evidence that we can do that.

Is that cognitive behavioral therapy?

Yeah, cognitive restructuring thing. Or you get people better by blasting them with trauma, and then before the long, they get desensitized with trauma. I think both of these methods are just... They don't get it. That completely doesn't get the issue at hand, actually.

Why?

I cannot talk you into being a reasonable person. People are not reasonable people. And trauma is as unreasonable as it can be. That's really at the core. If you understand trauma, is that your brain and perceptual system gets rewired, So you see things almost entirely through the past experience rather than current experience.

Okay. So if I'm traumatized, talking about my trauma doesn't necessarily What affects my trauma?

Trauma is a speechless experience. We did the first neuroimaging study about people reliving their trauma, and we saw that the entire cognitive part of their brain disappears. That when you're in your trauma, you're just one ball of emotion and there's no thinking. So you're confused, you're befuddled. It is, as Shakespeare says, you suffer from speechless terror. You become dumbfounded. So the whole traumatic experience is just beyond relief. And so you stay in a state of confusion and agitation. And then finding language for yourself at this point is terribly important to help you to begin to organize your relationship to yourself. It's not enough, but language and defining your inner experience is terribly important.

The word trauma, as you say, has been thrown around a lot, and it's become a bit of a cultural joke to some people when you say something When you say something happens to you, you go, Oh, I feel triggered. I'm traumatized, et cetera. What actually does count as trauma?

Trauma really is an overwhelming experience of, Oh, my God. When Something happens and you're completely helpless and there's nothing in you that knows how to deal with it.

People talk a lot about small tea trauma and big tea trauma.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of that.

Okay, so explain why not.

You need to be more accurate. But the small tea trauma is a very real trauma when your environment around you doesn't acknowledge your existence. Most people, for example, after natural disasters, do very well because people get together after natural disasters. I've seen it. We have a cabin in northern Vermont. We've had terrible floods. The neighbors get together, they help each other, and you get a sense of cohesion, actually, and a sense of meaning. We're doing this together. The small tea traumas have to do with not acknowledging what's going on with you, saying to kids, Stop crying or I'll give you something to cry about. No, you don't matter. No, Oh, actually, your dad is drunk because you are such a difficult kid that your father was doing okay until you came into this family and you were too much for him and you caused him to be the person that he is. I think that people mean small tea trauma. It's a relational trauma, which is a very big deal for most of the people I get to see in my practice. Most people come in not because of big tea traumas. It is because nobody saw me, nobody heard me.

I was relevant. We always had to take care of my mom or my dad, but there was no room for us.

If you get fired from your job and it's a traumatic event for you because you get, I don't know, you lose your friends, you lose the job, your parents are embarrassed about you. Can that become trauma, something like that?

Yes, you could, depending on how you define it. For some people, it doesn't, for some people it doesn't. It depends, again, on the context. For some people, you get fired, you go like, Well, I didn't like those assholes anyway, or I ask this because I'm wondering if there's a lot of people listening now that I'm trying to understand if their small experience, which other people think is trivial, actually could have resulted in some deeper trauma response. Absolutely. At At the end, the issue is the perception.Your perception.Your perception. The issue is not the event itself. You and I may have the same event happening. For me, it reminds me about my brother torturing me, or it reminds me about my mom being sick and not paying attention to me or whatever. For me, it becomes a very big deal. For you, it goes like, Yeah, but I have so many talents. Why not try something else?

Can you give me an overview of the work you've done in your life that have fed into all of the knowledge and information that you have, just for anyone that might not know who you are, what is that body of work?

I had a very good psychiatric training in one of the Harvard hospitals. Then I went in the last state mental hospital in Boston, which was also interesting. It was a sanctuary for very disturbed people. That institution gets closed. I go work at the Veterans Administration I went to the hospital. I met these guys who were people who I looked up to. They were good athletes, competent people, helicopter pilots all my age. These guys had broken apart, and they had fallen apart They got, Oh. They reminded me of some of my relatives who I grew up with, who also had been concentration of survivors and Japanese camp survivors, and then I learned much else after that. But that really opened up my eyes to that people can be broken by life experiences. That really intrigued me tremendously.

This is central to your story is this early experience. You said earlier that you were born in 1943.

1943. Very important When you're born, it has a huge influence on who you become. My early days, imprint is of my father at some point was detained by the Germans. He was not in concentration camp, but he was supposed to go off there. My mom is by herself, raising small kids in hiding right next to the place where the Nazis are launching their rockers to go to London. So half of the rockers fell into our backyard. And I have no conscience There's imprint of that. But I grew up like a kid growing up in Ukraine today. And a lot of kids my age died. I was a very sickly child. It was a lot of hunger and misery. Half my generation died of starvation. I grew up with an incredible pre-conscious imprint of what kids in Ukraine and Gaza are going through right now. That must have left a trace in my curiosity and my being, including a trace of having a body that was very sickly.

You were born in 1943 in Nazi occupied- Netherlands. Netherlands. Okay. You're the middle children of five. That's right. You were very sick as a child. What were your parents like in terms of love, affection, all those kinds of things?

My mother was more or less broken by the pandemic of 1919, in which her father developed Parkinsonism and became one of those all for a sex type people. My mother was a very frozen person, which had a very impact on me. My father was very conscientious, loving.

You described your mother as being a frozen person. Yeah. It had an impact on you?

Yeah. Having a frozen mother has an impact.

What was that impact?

The impact is that if you have a mother who is not available to love you and care for you, that comes part of your perception of the world. That means that there's a lot of work to be done about learning about affection and intimacy and closeness and vulnerability and all those things.

Your mother would faint whenever Bessel would ask her what her life was like when she was a little girl?

No, I asked her only once. I was already a junior professor at Harvard. I had two kids, and my parents came to visit me. Here's an example of my parents I had. I left at age 18 for the US because I wanted some distance between me and my parents. Then, 15 years later, quite a few years later, I He wrote to my parents, It's customary for parents to come and visit their children sometimes. We should be interested in coming to visit me. That never crossed their mind. And so they came. We actually had a very pleasant time, very civilized. And so on the last day, my parents were visiting us. I said to my parents, You probably don't really know what I do for a living, but a lot of my work has to do with incest. And I wonder, where does that come from? I turned towards my mom and I said, I wonder if something happened to you that I've picked up, that you were sexually abused. My mom fainted, fell off her chair, and my father said, Look what you did to your mother. My dad and wife and her, my father carried my mother into her bed.

I don't know if my mother was sexually abused. She just fainted when I asked her the question. But that's how it goes. You barely get a straight answer to any of these things.

You said that child abuse and neglect is the single most preventable cause of mental illness, the single most common cause of drug and alcohol abuse, and a significant contributor to leading causes of death, such as diabetes, heart disease, cancer, stroke, and suicide. That's true. In your book, you said that eradicating child abuse in America would reduce the overall rate of depression by more than half, alcoholism by two-thirds, and suicide, drug use, and domestic violence by three quarters.

That doesn't come from me. There's data from this very big CDC study run by Vincent Folletti. So this is data on 25,000 people.

People have got increasingly interested in their early childhood experiences as a lens to understand who they are as adults. Is that overblown or is it important to understand?

It's not overblown to be curious about how you became who you became and what the internal ingredients of your cake are. I think that's very good for people to be aware of how they have become the creatures who they are. I think being curious about yourself is very necessary also in order to be curious of other people.

When you said about your mother and the incest thing, you'd realized as an adult, much of your work focused on incest. Then you turned to your mother and asked her if there was an experience she had had and she fainted. Do you believe that there's a part of you that knew?

No, but I don't know if my mother was incested. I know that my mother was very uptight about sex, and I wonder what happened to her. Her fainting in response to that means that I triggered something, but I don't know what I triggered. I would not jump to conclusions that my mother was an incident victim. Something happened to her, but I don't know what it is.

Okay, but the indicator was that she was always uptight about sex.

It It wasn't that you-Un unbelievably up tight about sex. Terrified about sex.

How many of the people that you treated in your practice could you trace their adult dysfunction back to an early childhood experience?

Pretty much 90%, let's say.

90%?

But that's me. People with autism or people with OCD don't come to see me. I have a very narrow filter, in a way, of who comes to see me.

What's the crux of what happened to them as a child, if you had to simplify it?

The crux is not being acknowledged and honored for who they were as kids. That's the big thing is they were unseen and people did terrible things to them, and nobody seemed to bother to protect them.

When you say terrible things.

Terrible things is being beaten up, being sexually molested, having their bones broken.

What if it was just words?

Also words. One of my patients Mother cat, all the time, Oh, you'll never have friends. If people really get to know you, they will all reject you because you're such a terrible person. That's pretty good.

Who said that?

Well, mother of 100 people, I'm free. But It would not be an unusual thing to say. People do terrible things to kids.

Intentionally and unintentionally?Automatically.Automatically? Yeah. Is that hurt people, hurting people? Yeah.

You see it in supermarkets and parking lots and stuff like that.

What do you see?

You see people abusing their kids, seeing terrible things to their kids.

I guess it's difficult for parents because they sometimes think, Well, I've got to raise a child that's not dysfunctional, so I've I have to punish them and I've got to have to discipline them as a way to make sure that they grew up to be healthy and well-rounded.

Yeah. That's an interesting cultural issue. That is how my parents and grandparents parents generation saw their kids. And then people who grew up in Northern Europe completely changed their attitude. Now you go to jail if you hit your kids in Sweden, for example. I think me in Holland also, not in the US. So people have really changed their mind. But in the US, when they talk about the downside of physical punishment of their kids, often that's particularly black people will say, I want to raise my children knowing about right and wrong. And the Bible says, I need to punish my children, and that's what I'm doing, and you should not subvert the teachings of my church. They don't argue with that because, at least not straight on.

I grew up in a household where I was punished physically in pretty significant ways, ways that I probably can share because it's just quite significant.

Quite horrendous. Yeah. They are horrendous stories, actually.

I was born in Africa, so I've got an African mother and an English father. It's funny because I look back on it and I go, and this is just me rationalizing in hindsight, I go, I'm happy that I had a home where there was discipline because if I didn't have that home, then I wouldn't maybe have left the city. We're one of the few families that actually left the city, the fairly small town, relatively small town, to some of the towns I live in now, and went and did a lot of things with my life. I didn't get caught up in drugs like some of my friends. I wasn't dysfunctional. And my mother couldn't read or write as well. So I feel somewhat thankful. But I'm rationalizing in hindsight because it somewhat ended up okay in certain measures of my life. In other areas of my life, there's dysfunction.

Your perception may change. Really? My perception about my life and who I became has changed quite a bit over time as layers come open. But what you talk about that things were predictable is very important. My parents also were predictable, which is enormously helpful for at least for you to anticipate, to know what you are supposed to do, et cetera. Chaos is a terrible thing.

I think that point is really interesting because although there I was physically punished a lot, it was predictable. I knew that. I understood why I was being punished. I was playing football in the house and broke ordinance or something like that. It was never unpredictable.

But Something comes to my mind as you're talking is that same visit that my parents finally came. I had a three-year-old daughter at that time. We were staying in the house and put my parents on the first floor right next to the main bathroom. Then my three-year-old daughter went to that bathroom that was next to my parents' bedroom. My mother came out and yelled at me, said, How dare she use our bathroom. You should punish her. I almost did I had an immediate impulse. I said, I should punish my three-year-old. I started to walk to her and said, Oh, my God, I'm about... I feel like crying. Oh, my God, I feel I'm about to be an It's what my parents did to me. I made a decision, No, mom, she is allowed to use this bathroom. I said, The limit on my mom, which is a transformative experience for me to actually realize that I'm about to repeat what it done to me, which people do routinely. I was about to meet my daughter, and I said, Love the end of the story.

It still causes you a lot of emotion.

It's actually, I'm surprised how much emotion comes I'm not talking about it yet.

Why do you think so much emotion comes up when you talk about that?

Good question. It's the same question. Because it allowed me to have a life. Much of life is automatic, but you can make a choice to do things differently. You start owning yourself. That's the moment I started to own. I'm responsible for my kids. I'm going to follow what I think is right. It's really a moment of liberation, but also a moment of separation. I will not be like you.

It's tremendously hard to do that because it's going against your- I think that's a big thing for all of us because we want to belong, we want to be a member of a tribe.

If If you do things differently, you lose your tribe and you become a lonely traveler. This is incredibly complex because people want to be part of a tribe. We cannot do without your tribe. The act of actually leaving your tribe is a very, very major pilgrimish make.

There's parts of me that manifest sometimes, and I understand that this is the behavior that I learned. I think there's a part of me that's worried, actually, because I grew up in a home where physical discipline was the response to most forms of unwanted behavior, that I'm worried that if I become a dad, that will be my natural-Probably will be. Yeah, I don't want it to be.

But you don't have to follow it.

Yeah.

Your kid will drive you crazy because kids do. At that point, I think having kids has found a great learning experience in life. None of us knows what we're doing, and the other kids teach us how to be a very important teacher for how do you deal with this. It was very challenging.

What did you learn from your children?

I learned a lot from my kids. For one thing, my first born was just easy and loving and luminous and pretty and girly. She now is gender-ambiguous and just divorced her husband to be with a woman. That was completely transformed in her case. To see go through that journey with her like, Wow, wow, wow, wow. My son was a neuro-etypical child, very out of control much at the time. Many physical reactions, very bright but reactive, staying in bed, only playing computer games. He has grown up to be one of the most loving, thoughtful adult parents you can hope to meet. So both my kids have become very different people who I thought they were, but I have a very good relationship with both of them, even though I really don't quite understand either of them.

When we see dysfunctional behavior in children, I think one of the natural reactions is to give them some medication or to attach some label to them and say that they're broken in this way. How do you feel about that?

Well, that is what saved my son, because I am a psychiatrist, and I know about how these labels are little crutches that never quite captured what somebody is suffering from. People started wanting to put my son on medications. But I was a psychopharmacologist. I really studied drugs, what they can and cannot do, and it was very clear that they were not helping him. I didn't have to submit to authority as most parents would do and say, Oh, my doctor says this and this and this. I say, I'm a doctor. I know about brains and I know about kids. I don't know what the hell is going on with my kids, but he doesn't have bipolar disorder, and he is not going to respond to Lycium. Both my kids were major inspirations for really exploring what was good for them, and particularly I'm particularly grateful for my son who was such a really, very scary kid in many ways. My wife, whom I'm now divorced from, she was really great also in terms of exploring what might be helpful. But the medical to also be aware of is the issue of privilege, that I made enough money that we could spend a lot of time trying to find things that would help my son.

If we had lived in a housing project, I saw it would have been a terrible misfit. But because we were able to give him so much support and care by exploration, that he actually found a way of reanimishing his mental state.

I mean, just on that point, there's a stat I read that children from low-income families are four times more likely, as the privately insured, to receive antipsychotic medicines. That's right.

That's true.

400% more likely to receive antipsychotic medications if you're right.

Yeah, and that's a very big issue. It's not really my area of expertise, but giving drugs to kids is potentially very dangerous. Is because you interfere with natural processes of brain growth.

Brain growth? Yeah.

If you give people medication that changes certain chemicals in their brain at the development of phase, it may actually change the way that their brain for it and may not allow, as it happened with my son, who was able to compensate for many things, and his brain was able to learn how to react differently. If you suppress all of that, your brain may not learn these adaptations.

You think we should be looking at the social conditions before we look at- Social conditions, physical conditions, movement, touch, synchrony, music.

In our world, we got stuck in... Western people are allowed to do things. They can do one thing, is they can, what I call take a swig. If you feel bad, you take alcohol, and that makes you feel better. That's part of our respected tradition is taking a chemical to change the way you feel. Anybody who says you should take that chemical, nobody ever say, you're crazy. The other thing that Western people are very good is yacking. Let's talk, talk, talk, talk, talk arrived and miserable and coming back from this cultural revolution, and nobody could talk about anything. No, nothing happened on the mile. No, nothing happened. No, gentlemen's Square didn't happen. It didn't happen. China was filled with every park, then as now, is filled with people doing Qigong and Taiji. I go down into the park and do Qigong with the Chinese. What's that? Qigong is the Chinese- It's like a dancing. Chinese movement stuff. I do that with it and I go like, Oh, my God, that's how they survive by making these Qigong and Taiji movements, which if you use it in Boston, people say you're crazy. But in China, you cannot talk.

You can come that body down by the way you move. I became very interested in how cultures around the world actually have very different ways of helping people to regulate their physiology and their synchronicity.

I want to talk about all of that, specifically this of movement and the role it plays in healing. Just to close off on the part about childhood trauma, why is it so important for a child to grow up with a secure attachment to a caregiver?

You become how people see you.

You become how people see you. Yeah.

If you're a kid and most people, most kids, their parents find me cute or if it needs to be grandparent, they say, Oh, you're cute. You're lovely. You're so sweet. And no kid is able to say, I'm just average. Look at the billion kids in the world. I'm not any cute as anybody else. No. When the kids get told you're really cute, that is your reality. If the kids get told you're really ugly and nasty and mean, that becomes your identity. So you really become how people treat you early on in your life. That's a very big legacy that I, as a therapist, deal with, is these imprints of early experience, which are very difficult to change.

Imprints of early experience, are they changeable?

Yes, that is the great news. And also the amazing news that even though we know how to do some of that, we're not going there.

You can heal from your childhood trauma? Absolutely. Everyone?

That's my assumption when I see people.

In your experience, you've dealt with patients your whole life, your whole professional life. How many of those patients do you think were healable?

I really think that if given a chance and given the resources, you can pretty much do something for everybody. One of the other- But the problem is Again, we go back to where we started before the microphone was on, is that our focus these days is on productivity and behavioral change and not in how do we find out how to help you. All the things that I describe in my book, almost most of the things that I describe in my book as being helpful, and that was 10 years ago, I know some other things since that time, are unconventional methods that do not get practice in mainstream psychology psychiatry because they need to be productive and they need to be cheap. Whether you get better or not doesn't matter who you're cheap. It's the main motivation. I think at the profit point is killing good practice.

Your book was very interesting because when I read the cover and then I watched a video you'd made talking about the six treatments and stuff that exist within the body, things like yoga, you talk about theater and acting and how that helps you to get out of your trauma. The body keeps the score. This was a pretty radical approach to thinking through trauma.

It became a meme, which is an interesting thing to see.

Well, I use it in my everyday language with my partner. I've heard people say, The body keeps this goal, the body keeps this goal, when we're talking about how our body is holding on to those traumatic memories, traumatic things that have happened to us. For someone who has never read your book and doesn't even understand the base premise here, what is the base premise of the title there?

It's really that trauma is a visceral experience.

What does the visceral mean?

In your body, heartbreak and gut wrench. You stiffen up You, Samantha, you lose your power. You tighten up. That's really where trauma is lived.

I see it as two approaches. You can either go, let's try and change the mind, which will then change the body downstream, or you can Let's change the body, which will then change the mind. But you could.

But I do a lot of CBT with my wife, let's say. I point out her irrational behavior, and that she should really see things from a different angle, and that she should really see things correctly. And I really have much success with that. And I'm a bit surprised that psychology does things that most spouses have failed in using very well.

This somatic approach, I've only recently had this term from my partner, and she said it's amazing. She told me to speak to you on this podcast because she says you'll really help to change her opinion on this. What is this somatic approach to healing?

This somatic approach is to really experience what your body feels and also allowing your body to do things that it has been afraid to do and to explore how your body moves to the world in some ways.

Why are women just seem to be so much better at this stuff than men? Because are they doing like pilates? I'm not sure. Pilates, yoga, these are all things, dancing. These are things typically women do more than men. It seems women are just more in touch with it.

Yeah. I think it's an intriguing question because it's not exclusively women. Of course, men have always done it in armies and basic training and the military. What's intriguing to me is that when When people join a military, they oftentimes are not very well put together people, and they go through basic training, and they really march together, they sing with people, and they climb barricades, and they go through composite physical experience with other People at the end of 12, it makes they feel competent and they feel connected, and they have found a band of brothers. How did they do it? Not by yaking, but by having very deep shared physical experiences.

One of the One of the interesting things that you write about, which I found particularly interesting because I saw little flashes of myself in the words, is you said, I found that the more traumas your patients have in their backgrounds, the more creative and successful they often become Often.

Often. Often. We don't know how often that is, but I get to meet quite a few.

It's the people who have had to struggle, who often see new possibilities and have no choice but to discover new That's true.

That's true. But those are the people who managed to get into my practice. The people who don't find their solutions, don't have the wear-resil and the capacity to make it into therapy with me.

They might be outside with a drug addiction.

Getting drugs, lying on the streets, et cetera. And to a large degree, I see it as an issue of accident. This past year, I visited a program in Los Angeles called Homeboy Industries. It's a program for formerly incarcerated, largely Latin men who had no fathers, who had been criminals. It's a spectacular program where they honor, they say, What do you need? How we can be to care? How can we make a safe place for you? I saw a real treatment there, St. Quentin Hospital, St. Quentin Prison, famous in California, is now trauma-based. They use my book as a poor text there. And they're transforming people's lives by acknowledging the reality of what they dealt with, helping people to be part of the healing system, working in groups, working with movement. Like in St. Quintin, they have hula dancing classes. I go like, yeah. Moving together with other people gives you a sense of connection, sense of pleasure. I They're really beginning to understand you can do it. At the Harvard Hospital, you wouldn't do the hula with people. You wouldn't dance with people.

I think there's a bit of a joke in the investment community that says, You'll get better returns if you invest in someone, an entrepreneur or founder that is a little bit traumatized. I actually think, I don't want to misquote her, but I had Barbara Cochrane, who's a shark on Shark Tank in the USA, here on the show. One of the things she said to me was, with all of her investments, the ones that tend to do the best are those that have a little bit of a trauma in their past. She says, Because when they call me with a problem, they call me with the solution attached. Versus people who have never had trauma, they call me and just tell me the problem. So they'll call me and say, Listen, Barbara, this has happened, and this is what we're going to do about it. And that was her. She said it in a slightly humorous way, but I wondered if you thought there was any truth in this idea that- Yeah, I think that's, again, a selection bias of people she worked But I know certainly plenty of people have had plenty of people working for me who really get paralyzed in the face of challenges and who don't have a solution and become very dependent on getting a thing of action.

So I think she has a bit of an unusual sample, actually.

Because I wondered if you've had an anomalous early upbringing, does that make you an anomalous adult? Does it increase the probability that you become an anomalous, slightly different? Absolutely. Okay. And that can go everywhere. You develop a mind and brain to fit with that particular situation.

And if that particular situation doesn't help, you need to find new solutions. And so trauma and abuse really forces you to try to find other solutions, but many of them are not successful.

Is trauma a story in your brain?

No, trauma is a perception in your brain.

A perception, what's the difference?

So the issue is something happens and your brain and mind takes it in and then makes an adaptation to that particular event. That depends on how old you are in a circumstance, and it's very different for different people.

Give me an example of a perception.

If you would beat me up right now, I'd go, this guy is crazy, and I can call people and ruin your reputation, et cetera. If I'm three years old and you start hitting me as a kid, I I don't know what the hell to do about it. I'll likely think I did something wrong that I caused the guy to beat me up, and I'm a terrible person. No wonder that he beat me up because I'm a horrible creature. That's what almost everybody who I know who was beaten as a child has the internal understanding of it. Not when you're eight years old or 15 years old, but when you're very young, that becomes your experience.

Because you're still forming your perception of the world. Yeah.

Your brain creates a map of the world in very deep ways. And so your experiences form an internal wasser of the world that makes you expect certain things at certain times. If I walk into a I see a woman, I see a person who looks like my old uncle who he has to play with, I start to link up to you because you're on that deep level, it might be of that very nice uncle that I once had. I don't know that, but my brain is set to interpret the world in a particular way. One of the things most profound research experience I had was purely accidental. We started to do Rorschach tests on people. What's that? Inkblot tests. So you show some formless ink picture, and we showed it to people. And we saw that people had completely different interpretations of what they projected on that inkblot test. And that really brought home to me that we all are living in different worlds. And like a lot of the Vietnam veterans I saw, saw bloody corpses or mutilated bodies in those cards. People had never been in combat, didn't see that. Vape victims saw torn vaginas and torn bodies.

Other people didn't see this. Once that becomes lodged into your perceptional system, you continue to interpret the world in that particular way, having to do with what you have the answer in the past.

An inkblock test for anyone that doesn't know is basically just a piece of paper with random ink space. That's all it is.

But it's been analyzed on about 100,000 people over the years. There are certain patterns you can detect in it.

I've never done an inkblock test. I feel like I should do one.

I learned as much from my inkblock test as I learned from my brain imaging. But the brain imaging is respectable and the mind has disappeared. But for example, in our psychedelic research, I still very much hope to do inkblot test because as Michael Pollens says, how to change your minds. But we're not measuring how people change their minds.

How many people do you think... I mean, this is maybe a ridiculous question, but how many people, what percentage of people do you think have trauma in some form? How you define it?

The figures are a quarter of people get physically abused, one of five people got sexually abused, one of eight kids with the satisfaction as being their parents, et cetera. If I sit in a room, it's not a binary issue. It's not either you were traumatized, you didn't get traumatized. But When I talk to a room of professionals, which I do a lot, I assume that at least half the group viscerally knows what trauma means.

What is trauma doing to my brain? You said you've done a lot of neuroimaging scans. If I was traumatized and you scanned my brain, is there something you could see?

Not necessarily. I can see how your brain may be different from other people's brains. I may take a particular population, you can average it out, and you can say, Oh, there's a little more activation of the periacrytotra to gray, a little bit less of the bright insulin. So you see certain patterns of connectivity in the brain. But to some degree, I think we learn a lot about the brain, but we don't know much about the brain. I think people tend to overstate how much the brain pictures can teach us. I love the Hubel's telescope or the Webb telescope. Our brain is like a universe, and our technology is very inadequate to really know about all the unbelievably complex connection the brain has. But we have learned a few things in the last 20 years.

How does trauma affect the brain?

The fact of your brain that you tend to... There's one part of your brain that I call the cockroach center of your brain, the periacrys of gray, that lights up. It's underneath the amygdala. Everybody knows the word amygdala. These days. The part of your brain that tells you that you're in danger. When you're traumatized, you're likely that that little part of your brain, way back in your brainstem, is firing all the time. All the time, you I'm in danger, I'm in danger, I'm in danger. That's where it starts, in a very elementary sensory level. You don't know what the danger is, but you just feel that you should be scared. Then there's certain other parts of your brain, for example, your insula, which makes the connection with your physical sensations and your body awareness that for many people get shut down. Because basically, experience of trauma is a visceral experience of heartbreak and gut revenge. If you have a lot of that, you can learn to shut that part of your brain down so you don't feel your body so much anymore. You don't feel your body so much. They don't feel very alive either, but you don't feel so scared all the time.

But it's likely that you will want to take some drugs to make yourself feel alive sometimes. Stuff like that.

So So the part of my brain, you said just around the amygdala. Below them. Below the amygdala. People that are traumatized, they have some dysfunction in that, typically.

Dysfunction is that it keeps firing.

Keeps firing.

How does that make you feel? On the amygdala, there's a constant sense of subliminal dread.

Is that anxiety?

Anxiety is already too high of a mental functioning. It's more elementary. It's like your dog shaking. My daughter has adopted a dog. She was at time. And two years later, the dog still walks to my house.

You've adopted a dog and it shakes in your house still?

Yeah, but still never quite comfortable. And that's how many times you meet her, never quite comfortable.

So when someone says they're triggered?

No, trigger is in the higher level thing.

Okay.

Then the next level is indeed the trigger that is in part mediated by the amygdala. If your amygdala is your smoke detector, that tends to become hypersensitive so that minor things get blown up. A minor thing that you may say to me, I take as the most insulting thing in the world. And so you're constantly triggered by things and that makes you feel like you are doing terrible things to me. It's not like I'm hypersensitive, and when you have an off day, that is your issue and not my issue. No, when you have an off day, I feel your off day, and we start getting into trouble together.

I've got a picture here of what the brain looks like when the brain's smoke detector goes off. Is that what it looks like on the brain?

That is one particular guy, and nobody is exactly the same as everybody else.

Can you explain this to me?

But basically, what you see here is this is a guy who is reliving a terrible car accident he was involved in. What you see here is that the right posterior part of the brain, this temporal parietal junction on the right side of the brain fires, and that's the feeling part of your brain. So you go, Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I'm terrified. But there's no cognition Basically, the left side of the brain shuts down. So when you're in your trauma, you're not a reasonable person. You actually become a little bit of a blabbering idiot. All of us, when we really are angry, upset, are not very articulate, but we have a lot of feelings. And then the piece that I show this is that as this guy is reliving his trauma, these two parts of your brain go offline. This is the dorsal We found the cortex. That's the part of the brain that's the timekeeper of your brain. If something unpleasant happens between us, let's say, I'll go, Oh, it's not a half hour and I'll be okay. So let me just put up with this. But when you get traumatized, the timekeeper disappears, and this is all there is.

You lose your sense of perspective, and that is what happens in your trauma. You don't know the difference between the past and the present because the timekeeper of your brain goes offline and whatever your feeling is real as opposed to feeling like a memory.

Do you get it? Yeah. For people that can't see it in this brain scan, what I'm basically seeing is the right side is extremely It's activated. The left side looks like it's off. Off, yeah. Then there's these two blank empty spaces that aren't activated called the dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex.

Dorsal lateral prefrontal cortex. That's part of the system in the brain that give you a sense of time.

Okay.

As long as you have a sense, it's like little babies, a sense of time. Whatever happens, it happens totally. Then you see a child slowly grow and they get a sense of perspective. It's happening by now, but tomorrow it will It's very different.

Okay, so that's when... I mean, presumably that's when you get anxiety, right? When you start thinking about the future.

It is about having the perspective of this is happening right now. Right now, I'm really scared, but the moment I go home, the moment I call my friend, I'll feel better. You need to have that capacity for perspective, and that perspective goes offline when you're in your trauma and you become a trauma-dispers.

This particular person, this brain scan that I have here, this One guy was in a car accident, and the triggered brain that I'm looking at here is he was basically put in an fMRI scanner, and he was intentionally triggered to see what would happen in his brain. Exactly. So he was shown maybe a car accident or something? No, no.

Specifically, his car accident.Oh.

You showed him a picture of his car.What.

Did you see? What did you hear? What did you smell? What were you thinking? Very specific sensory details. Okay, so you asked-Not somebody else's sensory.

Your sensory Yes. The right side of his brain was illuminated?

Yeah, his light side of his brain became very active, but got inactivated was that timekeeper of his brain. So he could not lie there and say, Oh, I'm remembering what happened to me yesterday. He's reliving what happened yesterday.

Instantly.

You feel like it's happening right now. That's the nature of trauma. Trauma is not a memory, it's a reliving.

Are you consciously reliving it or is your subconscious reliving it?

You feel like it's happening right now.

With all forms of trauma.

It's happening right now, but my feeling is happening right now. In my body. You don't know that the feeling is actually long to the time that your dad used to beat you. It is now, I feel the same way because I disagree with you.

I've been triggered in the past and I felt that instant fight or flight response because something's happened or ever, and it's instantaneous. So although I don't feel like I'm back there, my body does feel like it's back there. That's right.

People are confused about it. They say, Oh, you relive the past. No, actually, you're not aware that you relived the past because the past is the present. So you don't think, Oh, this reminds me about the time that my dad used to beat me when I was four years old. No, it feels like you are beating me right now.

And is there a way for this particular gentleman here who's been through that car crash to ever stop this triggering?

Yeah, he's done quite well. He's done quite well? He did EMDR, actually. High Movement Descentralization.

And what was his results?

He's an all right guy. He's functioning. He's fine. He's no longer a traumatized person.

What's the most radical improvement you've seen in your clinical practice?

Really people really coming to life. People just saying it's over.

Give me the most The best example.

A good example is the videotape I showed you people yesterday of a woman, again, terrible car accident, freezing upset, flicked out. And then three sessions later, we got to talk I said, Yeah, this shitty thing happened to me. I was in this car accident and jolted for it and my head was full. And boy, it was terrible back then. But I have a granddaughter and I drive my car to my granddaughter, and I'm fine.

Three sessions it took. Three sessions, yeah.

And we saw it in psychedelic therapy all the time.

What did you do in those three sessions?

Wiggle your fingers in front of people's eyes. I mean, for me, EMDR was really the gateway drug. Sorry. I've written three books about PTSD. I actually wrote the very first book in which the word PTSD exists in 84 or something. But they didn't know how to treat it. So I'm a world-renowned expert, but I have no idea how to treat it because people keep reliving that trauma, and they don't know how to stop that. Somebody starts telling me about EMDR, and I don't believe a word of it. They say, Yes, you move your fingers in front of people's eyes. You move your eye from side to side as you relive the trauma. I go, That's crazy. Everybody who hears it, that's crazy. Then people start doing it and they show me how it works. I go like, Wow, People indeed had a certain subsample of people we studied, indeed, after a few sessions of EMDR, go like, Yeah, that really sucked. But it's over. It belongs to the past. It's not happening right now.

You're telling me that wiggling your fingers in front of people's eyes can help heal their trauma?

Well, then, of course, we had to do a little research, which took us 15 years to get enough funding to do it, to see what happens when you move your eyes back and forth. And then we discover that if you move your eyes back and forth, as you recall a traumatic experience, if you activate certain pathways between the temporal-partial junction, which is your sense of self and your insula, which is your sense of your body, So your brain is able to say, Oh, yeah, this is what happened to me, but it happened to me in the past. So these are pathways that makes it possible for your brain to make that distinction.

And in the In the research that's been done on this, what did the outcome, what was the conclusion in terms of its efficacy?

In terms of in our research, 78% of the people who had Adult onset trauma, so being assaulted or raped by a stranger, 78% of them were completely cured. But that's not the majority of people we see, because most people we see have early childhood trauma, which is much more complicated as a treatment.

Early childhood trauma is much more stubborn and resistant to this treatment.

Yeah, because your early childhood experiences create who you are. If you go to a fancy college when you're 18, you do become identified with that college, but it doesn't radically change you into a new person. It becomes part of your identity. But if you grow up in a certain family early on in your life, you actually become that. The imprint is very deep early on.

It's called eye movement desensitation and reprocessing treatment. I was just looking up some stats about it. It says it's been extensively studied with evidence supporting its efficacy across various conditions. With PTSD, a 2014 meta-analysis of 26 randomized control trials found that EMDR significantly reduced PTSD symptoms with a large effect size. Depression, a 2024 systemic review and meta-analysis encompassing 25 studies and more than a thousand participants reported that it alleviated depressive symptoms. The same 2014 meta-analysis noted that EMDR led to significant reductions in anxiety symptoms among PTSD patients with a large effect. Finally, a 2024 systemic review and individual participation data meta-analysis concluded that EMDR is as effective as other psychological treatments for PTSD, achieving comparable symptom reduction and remission rates. Can you show me how it works? Can you do it on me?

I could. It's going to be... Can I move my chair?

Of course you can. You're going to come closer.

Can you bring to mind really about an unpleasant experience you have had not too long ago? Yeah. Can Can you bring to mind what you saw at that point?

Yeah.

Can you remember what the voice sounded like at that point? Or whatever it was? Any sounds come to mind?

Yeah.

Do you remember what your body felt like back then?

Yeah.

Can you remember what you were thinking or bring to mind what you were thinking?

Yeah. Okay.

How vivid is your feeling right now by collecting it?

Like a 6, 7 out of 10. Okay. Sorry.

So stay there. Now follow my finger with your eyes. Look at me right now. Deep breath. What comes to your mind right now as we're doing this?

I feel calm. Yeah, I just don't feel calm. Okay.

When you go back to what you were just feeling, what's it like now?

It's hard to recall why I was bothered. It's the best way to describe it.

That is the weird stuff.

Why is that? Why is that?

See, that is what's so great about this work. We don't know the linearity. We don't know where the hell the emotional imprint is gone now, but it is. Of course, if you bring up something much worse than what you're going to, it takes it much longer and a lot of other stuff comes up. But somehow EM EMDR seems to do, it creates new associative processes in the brain. Let's say for some people that EMDR me, something really very nasty had happened to me, and I I started off being very upset. Then during the EMDR, I don't know if this happened to you, I had images of sitting in my dining room table as a kid and had images of playing in a playground in primary school. It started already, don't come in my mind. And then we stopped it and indeed, so that really sucks. Time to go on. An important part of this, you did not tell me what you were going through. No. Because I'm suspicious of language Because language is always an interactive process. If I would ask you to tell me what happened, you will filter yourself because certain things may be embarrassing or you don't want me to know about it.

We circumvent this whole verbal process of your making meaning out of it, and we organize some core ways in which your brain is perceiving this. You saw a little bit of this in a minor way For me, when I first saw this, I was blown away by it and thought, I need to study this. When they quote the studies, the main study was done by me. Nih funded it, but I was also the last time that somebody could fund It was for EMDR.Breathwork?Yeah..

What role did... Bathwork has become a really big topic. My partner runs a business called Barna Bathwork, #ad. She takes women away, she does these breathwork, retreats all around the world, has astudio, et cetera. What do you think of breathwork as a way to-It makes perfect sense. Why?

For one thing, it's been used since time immoral in certain cultures. People always discover it. In India, people know it. Northern Europe, nobody knows about breathwork. These are culturally dependent things. I think the closest may know it. I don't know. Go out and see if Sure. People are so conformist to be approved of by their teachers and their peers. When people do something innovative, they tend to very quickly be Or they're cookie, they're crazy. I really got into bodywork. I've not done breathwork myself, but I hear about it from people, so it's perfectly legitimate to me. But when I We do something new, I was the first person who studied yoga for PTSD, and people go like, putting your butt in the air and twisting your spine and press up for trauma. I said, Well, let's find out. We did the study, and it turned I thought that yoga was very effective for treatment of PTSD. But the overwhelming reaction of my academic colleagues was, Oh, there he goes again. He's gone off to deep bend. Now yoga is pretty well accepted as it could be.

You can use yoga to treat trauma?

No, you don't treat trauma. You yoga to treat your relationship to your body. It's not the same thing, but trauma really It starts your relationship to your body. What our research also shows is that when you start doing yoga, certain brain areas that tend to get dampened by trauma come to life.

What did you find in those studies? I've I've got one particular screenshot here.

Yeah, that's a little story.

Explain here what's going on.

This is a tiny study. What you see here is that after doing yoga, your insula gets more activated. Your insular is the place in your brain that makes you know what your body feels. When it rains and you have no raincoat on, you go, I better get an umbrella. You need to know what your body experiences It needs and it dissipated. That dimension of self-experience tend to get very damaged by trauma. The reason for that is it's an adaptive thing because trauma is so relived in visceral experiences. Darwin said, heart-breaking gut vent is the visual sensations. If you're constantly heart-broken and gut-venged, you try to put that down. You lose contact with your body as a defensive maneuver of feeling overwhelmed by these physical sensations.

I want to make sure I understand this. The insular part of the brain is the part that links what we do with how we feel?

How we viscerally feel, yeah. What's happening in our bodies.

Okay. It links how we're feeling in our bodies to...

To what we know about ourselves.

The stories we have in our head about ourselves. That's what the insular does, and trauma interrupts that, which causes what dysfunction on a day-to-day basis.

You are out of structure, you feel numbed out. Or disconnected. You don't feel alive, you don't feel connected, you can't feel pleasure.

Or you feel hypersensitive.

And you feel hypersensitive.

Because you talk about the two responses being disconnection or hypersensitivity.

There's always these two quantitative things that coexist, remembering too much and remembering too little, feeling too much and feeling too little. There is no happy medium You go from one extreme to another. You're agitated and non-doubt at the same time. I bet you know what it's like because we all have been there. We feel agitated, and at the same time, we feel completely nothing at all. There's almost no mind there. I think it's a very uncommon human experience.

And the insula is playing a role.

The insula plays a big role on that and many other brain structures.

If I start doing yoga, what What is that then doing to that hypersensitivity disconnection?

Yoga makes it possible for you to reconnect your senses in a way, to feel what you feel and to make it safe what you feel. So as we go to a yoga studio with a teacher with a nice voice who really helps you to not take a deep breath, stretch out your arms, feel that warrior three pose, and then you start feeling it. And for many people doing yoga can be actually quite agitating, scary, actually, in a way. For traumatized people, we see it all the time, is that something gets triggered and you start getting upset just doing a simple down dog, let's say, or certainly the yoga pose that all sexual abuse victims have great trouble with is the happy baby pose. Happy baby pose is when you put your feet in the air, you lie in your back, you hold your toes, and you spread your Your legs bite, so your pelvis is up against the air. For most of us, that's a very pleasant post, makes you relax. If you're a sexual abuse survivor, that's going to trigger a lot of stuff.

Really?

Yeah. You have to be very careful doing this.

Because it's- It's triggering.

Because these positions may be triggering, you may hold your body in a frozen position in order not to trigger those feelings of sexual abuse.

I was just thinking as you're speaking about a friend of mine who tends to go through life where they crumpled up body. And they're low self-esteem, they're quite low confidence. I don't know if they're traumatized in any way. Can't pass judgment on that. But they started doing yoga, and it really has helped their mental health in a profound way. I'm just wondering what you think the link is between someone who, I'm just telling you on the surface, is crumpled up through their life. Absolutely.

I told you I was I was a sickly child. I was really sickly until I had asthma, I was 13. I think the most helpful thing I ever did was Rolfing. Rolfing is a very intense form of massage, where they tear your muscles from your fascia, and I came to live in a new body. I no longer lived frozen in that body of this little child who almost died. Had a profound effect to me as much as anything I've ever done.

Why and how?

Because you get stuck in habits. In a way, trauma becomes a habit. My habit is that when I see a strong guy in a room, I get scared. Hypothetical situation. You have habitual responses. Part of what you do therapy for is to get to realize your habitual responses and become curious about it. Whenever a person like that comes in the room, I freeze and I sound like idiot. And your therapist says, So what happens in your body? And how long have you felt this way? Did you feel this way when you were six or three or eight? And then at some point, people get a narrative that may begin to explain it. And that narrative may say, Oh, I was bullied by somebody. And that feeling comes back when I meet somebody who reminds me of my bully. And then you go like, Have you ever tried martial arts? See what it would be like for you to actually learn to use your body to fight somebody. That's, for example, a treatment that I have never studied, but I was amazed how many of my close colleagues who are very much into trauma tell me at some point, Oh, and now I have to go to my martial arts class.

Nobody sees that as a legitimate way of dealing with what they're dealing with. But I think people are doing their martial arts because they have memories of being victimized. It gives them a visceral experience of my body can defend itself. I can use my body to take care I've got to be aware of myself. And that's not the intellectual process. That's not the intellectual process, that's the visceral experience.

People often describe meeting somebody and their body just being off. So they say, I met this person and my body was just... I just felt something in my body that they can't consciously articulate, but they just feel it in their body, this person's a bit off. What do you think they're describing there?

I think they're describing two things. We pick up each other's energy. There's such a thing as the mirror neuron system which hasn't received much attention in the past few years, but I think it's a very important invention that I pick up your energy. And if, let's say, you're depressed, but have a job to do some, to talk with me today, it's very likely that I, on some level, will pick up your depression, and it will affect our conversation. I'm not saying that I do, that's a hypothetical. But we pick up each other's energy. We may be somebody who is very angry, but who's trying to behave themselves very well, but you may pick up that anger. That's really a very complicated stuff in psychotherapy. Am I picking up your energy or am I picking up my energy? If I feel uncomfortable in your presence, is that because you're triggering something in me about my past or am I picking something up about you? That is the complexity of our interactions.

From an evolutionary standpoint, as you were speaking, I was thinking, where has this come from, this ability to subconsciously just get a read for someone and then form a pattern of, okay, this type of person helped me in the past, and 20 years later, I meet someone in the street and I immediately feel the same. Is that just a survival thing?

I think that makes perfect sense to me because we are primates. Something that came up in your interview with Trevor, the deep degree to which we're interconnected creatures, that we really don't exist as individuals. So we are meant to live troops. We're meant to be with other people. And so What is safe with other people becomes a critical issue of our survival. The reason that humans have survived is not because of your individual gifts of mind, it's because we can band together and build buildings and airplanes and all that stuff. It's all communal things. It's not central in our science anymore today, but it's at the core, if you understand human beings, we are a collective bunch of creatures who collectively It creates something. Knowing how to do that and how to adjust to each other is at the core of who we are.

Are we losing that a little bit? People are getting lonelier and lonelier and more individualistic.

Huge, huge issue. Screens as virtual realities is our biggest challenge, I think. Yeah.

Why?

Because screens give you a virtual reality of pleasure, et cetera, et cetera, but it's not real and it It's not a product of your efforts of doing something. You get a cheap reward, but ordinarily it takes a lot of activity. You get your little dopamine brush and it feels like you had to experience, but you don't learn how to get along with other people. You don't learn that visceral reaction of pleasure of we are friends.

What role does community and social connection play in trauma?

Everything. Critical. That's another thing that is troublesome about the development of our field, namely in our generation, trauma started with experiences like mine, working with combat veterans. I'm not a combat veteran. I was a conscientious objector during the Vietnam War. I don't know anything about the US Marine Corps. I couldn't have told people what it was like, but they were in groups. They talked to each other, and they learned about what it was like to be a combat veteran from each other. The moment they made this connection with each other, they were becoming a band of brothers. That's how people survive trauma by bonding with other people.

It seems that women are better at forming those connections than men.

Yeah, I think so. Although, no, that's not entirely true. I learned a lot about love from my combat veterans. To some degree, I think most human beings don't know what love is until you know what it's like to be in combat together with other people. Creates an enormously deep, deep bond between people. So I know something about male love more from with combat versus anything else. When you're in great danger, guys are there for each other. They really protect each other. They really look after each other.

What is it about that environment that forms what you're describing there as real love?

It's danger. The natural instinct when you are in danger, you and I become much better friends than we are. If something bad happened to us right now, we start clinging to each other.

Is that because we would probably need each other?

You need each other, yeah. You need each other, and you're countering each other, and you have each other's back, and you're saying to me, I have your back. Us making a commitment to each other is a very profound human experience. You don't get that from a screen.

Well, also in an individualistic society, you're almost trained to not need anyone else but yourself.

Well, but I have friends who went to Eton. Actually, the definition for me of many Englishmen is, your mother hates I sent you off to boarding school when you're six years old and never looks after you anymore. And what helped my friends who went to the public schools in England was sports. Enormously powerful. People felt really close to each other, moving together, throwing balls together, fighting in the field. That's additionally has been the way that guys get close together. That may ring a bell with you somewhere.

Of course, yeah. I was thinking back to playing football growing up and just you're one unit effectively. If there's a problem in this part of the pitch, then it's my problem too. If you're in trouble, I'm there to help you.

I bet you still make easy contact with your friends who you played football with 20 years ago, not 30 years ago.

It's really interesting because as you were talking, I was wondering how we can bring that back into our lives in the modern world. Yeah. In a modern world where we live on screens and Exactly. White walls alone. The studies say that the average... I think it said something like the average American has an average of zero people that they feel they could turn to at a time of crisis, which is down from three, I think two decades. Is that right? I'll have a look. I'll have a look at the stats. I'll pull up the stats. But the general idea of us being lonelier than ever before and How do we, in a society that's designed to be lonely, how do I, on an individual level, fix that?

I think that's the big challenge, actually. We have a foundation now, and the main thing that we're interested in is in finding funding for projects like that of how do you help people to connect to each other, be in sync with each other. We're very much into people making music together, making theater together, creating projects together. That is who we are. That is our glory as human beings. It's this collaborative, active, physical creation of things. That has not been part of mental health. We talk and we give pills, but we don't really connect people on a very deep level.

Are you optimistic about this?

Not after the last election, no.

Really?

I'm very desperate after the election.

You're very desperate after the last election. Why?

Because the last election was based on othering. You are different, projection, you're evil. These immigrants come and kill us, and they project their own discomfort with themselves on people from different religions and different skin colors, et cetera. It's all projection of people's own discomfort with themselves. And there's no honesty about the The problem is inside of me and not you.

So I take it you're not a fan of Trump?

Let's leave it at that. No, I think you're an obvious psychopath who doesn't give a shit about anybody else.

Are you able to point to anything good about him? When I've had people on this show that are pro-Trump, I ask them the same questions. I say, Can you point about anything bad about him? Because he's got a family Anybody who goes to China and says, I've been received better than anybody else in Chinese history, is it full?

The guy has gone bankrupt any number of times. He says terrible things to other people. He insults other people all the time. I'm sure there's something good about him. Ivanka seems to have loved him at some point. He's a terrible person.

Going back When you look at this point of trauma, you said that there's three broad ways to reverse the damage of trauma. If I came to you and I was a traumatized person, whatever that trauma might be, what would step one be if I came to you for support with my trauma?

Step one is tell me about yourself. Who are you? What do you value? What is working? What do you want to work? And what gets in the way? At start off, really, language is terribly important. I don't make a list of how screwed up you are. I help to create the DSM at some point in a very minor role, but the DSM is not a good way of starting off. Namely, how sick are you? I want to know who you are, what is working, what isn't working, what has helped you, what hasn't helped you, what gets in the way. We create a map together of who you are and to some degree, who you are in a relationship with me. I would check a lot with people about, Is this helping you? I don't prescribe. At some point, I may say, Well, have you thought about doing some martial arts. We should be interested in going to a yoga studio. But by and large, I give very little advice. But I help people to discover what is going on and where that leads them in a way.

Then once you've done that, so you find out that I had some early traumatic experience, how would you know, what treatment would you give me?

That is not a tricky thing. That is something In my book, I tried to do that and I failed. In my new book, I'm not doing very much better. I would see how agitated you get, how much you stay in focus. If I would see that whenever a particular subject comes up, I see you're getting agitated or shut down, I would focus on that particular experience. If I would see that you are chronically agitated, unable to focus, I would say, Let's just do something. You should do something that's helped to calm your body, your brain down. I'd say when you're overall overwhelmed, let's start with yoga or Qigong or whatever makes sense to you in terms of how to move your body. I probably do neurofeedback.

What's neurofeedback?

Neurofeedback is you hook your skull up to electrodes that can harvest the underlying brain waves so you can project your brain activity on a computer screen, and then you can play computer games with your own brain waves to organize your brain waves in a way that you can be more focused and pay more attention.

I've got a Graphs are put on the screen for anybody watching, and it shows five different types of brain waves. Gamma brain waves, which are very close brain waves, beta less close, alpha less close, beta less close, and then delta, which is when you're just sleep and dreaming, the waves are very, very far apart, almost flat. So looking at these different types of brain waves, if we just categorize them from one being when the brain waves are really tight and close to five, which is Delta when they're really far apart, is one Gamma, is that anxiety or something?

No, anxiety is very focused thinking.

Okay, fine.

But it depends on where it is. The back of your brain is supposed to have these slow waves because your back of the brain is dealing with the house It's keeping me off your body. The back of your brain tells you you have to breathe a little bit more, you have to go to the bathroom, you have to eat. So a bodily regulation, very large part of your brain is about your body regulation, which got messed It's messed up in a major way by trauma. For example, when you close your eyes, the back of your brain is supposed to develop nice slow waves to tell you, I'm feeling peaceful. When you're traumatized, when they ask you to close your eyes, it is very likely that the back of your brain will get agitated and create much faster waves than you should. You get a sense of agitation the moment you close your eyes, which scores very detrimental to your health. So my job then becomes how to train your brain so that when you close your eyes, your back of your brain becomes very calm, for example. Again, this is not about trauma, it's about brain organization.

Trauma leads to brain organization, but you don't treat the trauma, you treat the brain organization.

For the average person that comes to you, what do you typically end up telling them to do? That the average person- Some people these days, I say, I think it would be very good for you to have a psychedelic experience. A psychedelic experience? Yeah. You found yourself telling people that more and more recently?

Well, because I have done the research now and our results were really quite stunning, much better than I ever expected, actually. But I may tell you, no, you're not ready for a psychedelic. I think you should really do some neurofeedback and some body practices to live more in your body before we start blowing your mind open.

When you say body practices, we'll get on to psychedelics, but body practices, these are the things you're talking about, like the yoga, the martial arts.

Massages.

Massages. Any massage?

Well, I happen to know some very good body people who... If you have been beaten up or molested, human touch tends to become very complicated. You may not feel comforted by human touch. Other humans may not have a calming effect on your body, which is really what we're supposed to have in each other. So learning to live in a body that can be touched is quite important.

Is touch healing?

Oh, Absolutely. You don't have kids yet? No. Well, you have a girlfriend. You know. Yeah, it's true. Touch is an elemental human comfort thing.

You describe these three broadways of reversing trauma, the top-down approach, which is, I guess, talk therapy. Yeah.

It's understanding inside, et cetera.

Are you a fan of that?

No, basically, I'm such a cerebral person, so I'm very suspicious of that piece. That's explaining things, understanding things. It's not my greatest handicap. I tend to downplay that, the importance of that.

Number two is taking medications, which is to shut down the body's alarms, the signals, essentially. Are you a fan How did you start with that?

Well, I started life off as a psychopharmacologist. I did the first studies ever on Prozac and Zoro for PTSD. They're not bad. They can be helpful to people.

The third approach, the bottom-up which is allowing the body to have experiences that contradict the helplessness or rage or trauma. This is really what you focus on, which are called somatic therapies, which target the body rather than the mind.

Well, it's a very important piece, and I very much think that's a very big missing piece in the therapy, mental health, and medical field in general, to give people experiences of connection and pleasure. That's terribly important. But when I wrote this book before I got into psychedelic therapies, I would add another dimension of experiences that really blow your mind, that really allow you to have an alternate reality experience also.

In terms of energy, there are so many reasons why I'm a big matcha fan, if you don't already know by now, and so much so that I actually invested in the UK's leading matcha company called Perfect Ted. One of my favorite Perfect Ted products is these delicious matcha pouches that come in every flavor from salted to caramel, to peach flavor to mint flavor to berry flavor. One of my favorites is this vanilla flavor, which I'm going to make in just two seconds. You just take this mixer here, get a little bit of the powder, pop it on top of the shaker like that, put the lid on. Shake, shake, shake. Delicious. If you haven't tried this yet, you can find Perfect Ted at Tesco and Holland Barrett Stores or online, where you can get 40% off with my code, Diary 40. Head to perfected. Com and put in code, Diary 40 to try this delicious multi-flavioured matcha now. Highly recommend. If you do it, please tag me, send me a message online. Can the gym help?

Yeah. But that tends to become a very solitary experience also. You're sitting in a little treadmill watching Fox News is not my ideal trauma treatment.

Because I go to the gym, I lift weights, so I'm wondering if that's going to help me.

But that's interesting. One of my close colleagues, former friend, is a weightlifter, and she really is very committed to lifting weights can be extremely helpful for trauma. When she says that, I'm sure that's true for her, and I wonder for how many other people that's true. The trouble is that in their current system, you're not going to get the money to study weight lifting for trauma. Even though you say it's helpful for you, my friend Mariah says it's helpful, I go like, interesting. Let's see for how many people it's helpful.

Yeah, one of the ways I think about it is actually a lot of the people that I've interviewed that are weightlifters are bullied kids. I think about Mike, who I had in the show, Chris E. Chelle, who I had in the show, both of them speak to... Even Elaine Norton, actually, I think he speaks to some early trauma as well. They're kids that were bullied in some form or had a traumatic early upbringing, and they are just massive now. I wonder if some people on the surface go or even Leverking, actually, you're that way because you're learning to defend yourself and to build your self-esteem, but there's something- That gesture is not the right gesture.

Like, Oh, you're just doing that because. As if you're being dismissive instead of saying, good for you, you're doing that because you felt so helpless and you want to build up your bulk. Interesting. My association is that I testified on behalf of many people who were abused by Catholic priests. Almost to a person, they had become weightlifters and bodybuilders. Really? Clearly for the reason that you also mentioned, they were just trying to bulk up to feel a sense of agency and power, and it didn't work well enough for them. So that alone wasn't enough. I think they also needed to make the connection with their helplessness.

Psychedelic therapy? Yeah. What's your view on psychedelic therapy?

There's my own personal background. Of course, I'm a child of the '60s, so I knew about LSD. And I think LSD, for me at that time, I became a good medical student and came with the culture, stopped taking drugs. But my memory of taking LSD was very positive in that at that time, I got to see that I'm a very small part of a very large universe and that whatever constructs I make in my mind are just very small constructs of a much larger reality. Over time, quite a few of my friends have become very very good scientists. They say the same thing about their early LSD experiences of really truly having opened up their minds to many possibilities. But then the culture changed and they became illegal, criminalized, and people stopped doing that. Then Rick Doblin and Michael Mithoffer started to open up the world of psychedelics, and they asked me about it 50 years ago or something. I said, I think it's a great idea because when you are traumatized, you live in a very constricted world. Basically, the trauma dominates your perceptions and regularly interferes with your exploring larger realities. And I think in theory, having a psychedelic experience, a mind-open experience, would be very helpful, but I discourage them from doing it because I thought it was too...

You'll never get by the regulatory practices. Then they wasted enough money and asked me if I wanted to run the Boston side of a very large study, which was eager to do, where we compared very good psychotherapy by people who I largely had trained with psychotherapy plus MDMA, and the results were stunning. You describe? Stunning. I thought the therapy would be very helpful in many of these cards, and it turned out the therapy didn't make that much of a difference. A little bit, but the MDMA vastly changed the situation. I wrote up that paper, but I'm actually astounded by how little that paper gets quoted. I mainly focus on the so-called secondary data of the study, which was how trauma change your experience of yourself. What we saw is that people became much more aware of themselves. People had compassion for themselves. So People all the time went into their traumatic experience and had this sense of time of, Oh, my God, this happened to me. That was so awful. It happened to me personally also, actually, on psychedelics, of things coming up that you were unaware of, were so vivid deep down inside. And I'm feeling, Oh, this poor kid.

Look what he went through. He was so little, he was so small. He couldn't defend himself. And so you get this very a deep sense of self-compassion instead of the usual response of self-hatred and self-blame. Then the next thing that we saw happen all the time is, and I was such a beautiful kid, and I had this alcoholic, violent father. I'm not talking about myself, but good. My poor dad, he never got to really enjoy this beautiful kid that he had. They have compassion for the perpetrator. It's an extraordinary Compassion, opening drug, which is what we have been looking for in so many areas in life.

You call psychedelics a true revolution?

Yeah, it is.

You say it's a particular revolution because we don't know how it works. I was looking at some stats.

We don't know how I see where it should know.

We just have a bunch of hypotheses. I was looking at some stats that say MDMA therapy assisted, which is an important point.

That's what we did.

Assisted with a therapist there or someone who's a practitioner there. A phase 3 clinical trial reported that 67% of participants who received MDMA-assisted therapy no longer met the PTSD criteria compared to 30 odd % in the placebo group, which is a pretty drastic change.

That is the main paper on which I'm also an author. It gets quoted. But I think it's more important not that the PTSD did so well, but people's relationship to themselves changed. My other paper describes that actually, but it doesn't get quoted as much. People can focus on the PTSD. The real issue is, do you love yourself? Is your heart open? Are you open to new experiences? Not that we have this little list of symptoms in the PTSD scale, but are you a human being who embraces himself as a human being?

It's a really interesting study around treatment-resistant depression as well. One with psilocybin, which is what people know as magic mushrooms. A treatment-resistant depression study in 2021 showed that a single dose of psilocybin led to a significant reduction in depression with effects lasting up to six weeks for many participants. 30% of participants were in remission after three weeks. A study by Johns Hopkins University showed that 71% of participants experienced a more than 50% reduction in symptoms after two psilocybin sessions with 54% achieving remission four weeks after the treatment. The last study that I'll share is a follow-up study found that nearly 60% of participants maintained reductions in depression symptoms one year after treatment. But these compounds aren't even legal in America and the UK yet.

That's right. But ketamine is.

Ketamine is.

We do a fair amount of ketamine as a therapy these days. I'm intrigued that ketamine It seems to have similar effects to psilocybin and MDMA, even though they're completely different chemical substances.

Have you ever done a psychedelic drug?

Yeah, of course. As part of my being PI of this MDMA study, I had to do MDMA. But for example, I thought MDMA was ecstasy and put you in a place of pleasure. As part of my job, I had to take MDMA myself, and I was ready for my magical experience. I'd never done it before. Instead, I'd always pooh-pooh the issue of vicarious trauma. No, it didn't really hurt me all that much to see all this trauma in the world. While I was having my MDMA experiences, all the trauma-test people pain that I had experienced over the time came back, I lied there for eight hours in agony, going, Oh my God, oh my God. And I got in touch with that hearing all these trauma stories did have had a profound effect on me. I was really changed by that M&A experience. I became a much sadder but somewhat wiser man.

You became a sadder man.

Absolutely. I really felt all the pain much more deeply. I was able to ball it off onto that point and the ball came down, and it was quite painful. But what helped me is my guide, Michael Mithoffer, when I told him how I felt like a failure having had such a painful experience, he I said, Yeah, I know. I used to be an emergency room physician, and one of my psychedelic experiences, all the patients who died in my hands came to visit me. That was helpful for me because it made me feel like I had a connection with another human being. That context is terribly important. That's really what much the issues are about right now. I think we may very well use that. That is that clearly, you need to do psychedelics in very safe conditions with a lot of support. That the set and setting of psychedelics, which Dylan Hopkins study also took very good care of all the studies you mentioned, did it, is that the context is terribly important. While you're in these experiences, the environment needs to be completely supportive and safe and be there for you. What our profit-driven world is looking for is to give people psychedelics, give them one pill and go off by yourself and then deal with it.

The majority of the people in our study said to us, the study was over, I couldn't have done this if you guys hadn't been here with me.

Did that experience with psychedelics, the MDMA, experience you had, change you?

Yeah, I think it did. It made me a much more humble person and much more compassionate to people in general. Just one dose Well, I've had some other experiences. Also, I've had a number of other really painful experiences in the psychedelics. It made me much more... People say, Oh, how's your life going? I became much more aware to what degree my quest for understanding trauma had to do with me. And I learned more so after age 70, actually. Really? Yeah.

Earlier on, I asked if people could heal from their trauma. Yeah. Have you healed from yours?

No, healing is a complex word. I would say, yes, I'm doing well. As do many people I've worked with. But I think the willpower of my book is that it's a very It's a helpful book. Every chapter tells stories about people who are better and as much science as I've been able to do, I've proven how helpful EMDR can be. I've proven how well yoga can be. I've proven how well neurofeedback can do. That's really has been my mission is to not only be an advocate, but really say, let's do the science and see how it works and from home.

Of all the things that you've tried in your life to help you with your own personal trauma, what are the things that have personally helped you the most?

There's another thing that's really helped me, and that got me into theater, is the issue of psychodrama.

Psychodrama?

Yeah. The chap's in the book, and I've never done the science behind it, but I still love doing it. And that is when you act out things in three-dimensional space, it becomes a completely different phenomenon. If I tell you, Let's put your family in this room, Yeah. I say, Where would you choose somebody to play the role of your dad? Where would you put your dad? You know where you would put your dad.

I'd put my dad in this room right now. I'd put himRight there.

Yeah. Not there, but there. Yeah. That's what the hell is happening here. You know precisely where you want him. If somebody would play that role for you, the feelings of which your dad would come up, maybe even in your imagination to some degree right now, if you imagine your dad there, what's the first thing that comes to your mind?

Well, I put my dad at the head of the table that we're at because he was always at the head of the table in my household. He was always the one when we at a table who was in charge of us eating his thing.

What reaction would you have as you seeing him here?

It's complicated because-Exactly. It's complicated because one of the reactions is like, One of the reactions I had is when he sits there, he's in charge. But now as an adult, I have this other feeling which is like, No, I'm in charge now because I'm the head of the table. I'm the head of my house all the time. It's just this authority thing of That would come up.

It doesn't come up abstractly, but concretely, when he's sitting there, it comes up. He may say, Actually, Dad, I'm the boss now. Or, I hate that you're being the boss, or something Some feeling comes up. My freedom. What is striking is that for everybody, when they put that virtual person in the room, the feelings towards that person become very vivid. The overlap is quite different from what the story does people tell, actually. That brings up the three-dimensional And often times people have had harsh and neglectful fathers. And then what I say at some point after you do things with him, I may even say, you want to hit your dad, Possibly, I might actually do that, actually. Have you hit your dad, put a pillow in front of him, but to feel it, oh, my God, if I could have done that, it would be so great or how guilty I feel. So We do something virtually, which you could never do in your words. Then I would say, We could like to pick somebody in this room to play the role of the dad that you always wanted.

The dad you always wanted.

Then you choose somebody, and I encourage you to see how you would like that person to hold you. When you have that, you usually have a very deep emotional release and say, Oh my God, if my dad would have helped me like that when I was three years older, five years older, eight years older, and I needed it, my life would have been completely different. You make a virtual, new reality that is physical and visceral with other people. The memory of what it feels like can be very profound.

You're doing this with a group of people?

I do this about four times a year with a group of people. It's my favorite clinical activity because I'm always just so astounded by what comes out of it.

It's almost role-playing, your past and- It's role-playing, but you really, because you work in three-dimensional space, it feels much more real.

But therapists, usually, they have this hope that if I'm respectful and caring towards you, I'll give you a reparative emotional experience that will give you the the feeling of what it would have been like if you had gotten that in the past. And what my old teacher said, it's a mismatch. I, as an 18-year-old guy, cannot give you, as a 30-something-year-old guy, the feeling of what it would have been like if your mom would have loved you at age three. We cannot do that. But in these theatrical enterprises in three-dimensional space, very physical, you do get an imprint of, Oh, that is what it felt like that's what I was missing. It's a very powerful way of creating a virtual reality.

The subject matter of ADHD has become very popular in culture. In 2022, approximately 11% of children aged 3 to 17 had been diagnosed with ADHD up from 9%, roughly in 2016. In the UK, between 2000 and 2018, ADHD diagnosis in adults rose 25 Hold what? With a 20-fold increase in medication prescriptions among men aged 18 to 29. And that's from the NHR. In Australia, over the past decade, ADHD medication has surged nearly 300% with more than a 50% increase among adults and a significant rise among women. What is going on here?

I really see that somewhat differently from the way you guys talked about it before. And that is all these things are on a continuum. You don't have PTSD or you don't have ADHD or you don't have ADHD. These are no binary issues. There's a capacity to focus, to pay attention, to be flexible in your attention is a dimensional issue. A dimensional issue. Some people have it better more than others. Some people cannot sit still at all, and other people can sit still under certain conditions. Other people got... It's not like you have ADHD You may have some issues staying focused or staying still or paying attention. That may be very many underlying issues. Maybe that your mom took some toxins while you were... She is pregnant with you. It's possible that it is in your genes. Just about every traumatized kid I've ever seen met criteria for ADHD because trauma really messes up your capacity to focus and concentrate. This is not an entity. It is a fictitious entity. It's not like cancer of the gall bladder. It's not having osteocytoma in your brain. These mental phenomena are networks of complicated ways of organizing your mind, and our diagnosis system just sucks.

When I spoke to Gabor Mathe, do you know Gabor Mathe? Yeah, sure. He was describing what ADHD was to me, and he said he reviews it a response to early childhood stress and trauma rather than purely genetic or neurological.

Well, but I wouldn't say that. I'd say it could be genetic, it could be toxic, it could be trauma. This is the surface behavior of not being able to focus and concentrate. My son certainly had met criteria with ADHD. My son, other than that he disappointed me, was not a particularly traumatized kid. No, he really had real issues, organically-based, but that he outgrew also at some point. So these things are not stable. These are configurations that you can grow with over time. And they're multifactorial. They're surface phenomena.

Because I was diagnosed with ADHD, but the way other people that have ADHD have just drastically different symptoms to me, drastically different. We're not the same people at all. We're not even close to the same ballpark. For example, I'm really good at focusing on something for quite a long time if I'm interested, whereas I often hear people with certain types of ADHD be very unfocused on things. Absolutely. I have struggled with understanding what it means to be diagnosed with ADHD when there can be so many types. Yeah, that's right. It almost makes me feel that the label, the singular label, which we share, although there's all these subtypes, isn't necessarily helping me to understand myself in any way. Yeah.

I would really... Everybody who is serious about this stuff knows that our diagnostic system totally sucks. Really? Yeah. But it's a total artifact of us sitting in a room 40 years a go making up a little list of diagnosis. There's no scientific validity to this. Actually, PTSD is one of the more scientifically reliable diagnosis of all the diagnosis. They're just very primitive ways of categorizing human mind. We know so much more and we should move beyond that. Everybody who knows something about science knows that we should move beyond it, but we are not. Why? I think we're not doing it because our focus is not on helping people. Our focus is on funding success successful financial organizations. I teach neurofeedback, and there's a chapter on neurofeedback there, and there's serious research on neurofeedback, and we do neurofeedback trainings. The head of an insurance A big company took a training with me in neurofeedback, and he pulled me aside and said, Bessel, of course, as a head of insurance company, I'm not interested in getting people better. I'm interested in having as many subscribers to my band as I can. If we really went back to being real doctors, we said, How do I get you better?

What is wrong with you? We know so much about neuroscience these days, about how the brain organizes the information, that it's time to actually update ourselves to 2024 and start thinking about networks in the brain and what part of the brain is connected with what and mental functioning at different ages and what kids understand at age three, which is different from age five. Think in terms of how well is your brain able to filter out irrelevant information? How well is your brain able to be still and quiet, and how well are you able to take on the task and complete it?

How do I not raise a traumatized kid, Russell? Because I'm going to have kids probably quite soon, hopefully. I don't want to raise traumatized kids.

Be sure to listen to people in your environment. Don't raise them by yourself. I think raising a kid by yourself, you It's the full brunt of your own pathology. It's very important for a kid to be raised by a number of people. The kid gets to see, Oh, my dad is a little bit reactive, but my neighbor across the street is much calmer. The kid gets to see multiple perspectives as all of us idealize African villages as people having many different parents who look after you. It takes a village. It takes a village. I think kids need to be really part of a larger environment where they can see their parents as safe people, but also the floor of people. The more nuclear you get, the harder it gets to keep your pathology out of your kid's life, actually. So community is everything, also in terms of raising a child.

Is Is there anything that you think is healing towards trauma, childhood trauma, all forms of trauma that we haven't talked about?

Well, the critical issue is that trauma is about being helpless and not nobody coming to your rescue. It's very important to have the experience that if you really cannot do something or you're scared, that somebody comes to your help at this point. Then you get an imprint that even when I feel really bad, That somebody will come and be there for me. That is what many people miss. When you have a drunken parent. We see this all the time in our practice. People have a violent parent, usually the father, but It's a long way. Then mom or dad, in my case, more my dad than my mom, turns a blind eye and doesn't say, I'll take care of you, even though the other parent is hurting you. The betrayal of a parent to let the other parent do terrible things to them and not really say, No, you cannot do this to my kid, is a huge thing for many people.

It's interesting. Yeah.

Having bystanders who do not come to your help, very big deal.

The way to recover from that is to contract it with adult information.

Yeah, it's a life experience to where people come to your help. I think being part of a sports team, being part of a theater group, being part of a musical group, where people really feel now it's your turn to come in I think the issue of rhythmicity and synchronicity is really at the core of our internal sense of safety and belonging.

That's all. We have a closing tradition on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next not knowing who they're leaving it for. The question that's been left for you is, what do you believe is the question that the audience have just heard this conversation are screaming down the camera?

The question is, where do I get to help I need? I think that's really the big thing because it is so hard. It is such an exploration. Almost everybody who I know who have found a way of getting better has been an explorer. And quite an accidental explorer. Then I found this Kavadi teacher, and then I found this yoga teacher, and then I found this psychodramatist. But it's very largely accidental that I think the mainstream is not on the wide road. So you have to discover what works for you. That's a very tough one because you'll feel stupid It's an ignorance. If something is not helping you, it is very hard for yourself. It's not helping me because this person is not helping me, rather than blaming yourself, there must be something wrong with me that is not helpful for you. Making that distinction is a very tough one. I know it from my experience. I've been in treatments for long periods of time, despite all my qualifications, where it took me a long time to go like, I'm wasting my time and my money. If you don't have my education and background, it's even harder to say, I'm wasting my time and my money.

It's interesting. As you're speaking, I was reflecting on the things that... I was thinking a lot about this idea of community, and you're talking about how being in sports teams helps. I was thinking about in my adult life, in some of my most difficult times when things were difficult and I went and played football or some sports with a group of people, I just felt radically better. I think actually I put it down to, oh, well, because I did some exercise, but I actually think there's something deeper. Oh, no.

It's that connection. Passing that ball, somebody catching it. I made the difference. Playing music. My little piece of music that I made. Made in a better place. Being a theater group, being a cook. There's many dimensions along which you can do that.

Many of us, especially, I think, adult men don't have these things. We go to watch Manchester United play or something like that. To football ground. But maybe we need to fill our lives with more of these things.

Yeah, we do, I think. We should say it to ourselves because I need to do more of that also.

We just assume that society is designed in such a way where it'll give us what we need. But in fact, if you think about the loneliness stats and the way things, even like the pub is less pubs on the high street shutting down across the UK and less community centers.

The church is- A good example is I grew up singing all the time and people around me made me sing in vehicles. And then we got iPods. Aren't we lucky we get iPods? And then before so long, you stop singing and you start listening to your iPod. So technology has been an unbelievable blessing and what a curse it has been for us. Yeah.

Dr. Bessel van der Kull.Thank you so much for the work that you do. As I said to you before we started recording, you have so many extremely passionate followers, advocates, fans, because your work has made them completely rethink and understand their lived experience and also given them a much more optimistic, hopeful cure or treatment for their lived experience. One of which is my partner, who, when she's been telling me for three years to get you on this show and was so extremely excited. I think it's the happiest I've made her in the last three years when I said that you'd agreed to come on, genuinely. But that for me is such a personal and local sign of evidence of the impact you have on people. It is That's tremendous. So thank you on behalf of all of those people for the work that you do. And please do keep on doing it because it's opening all of our eyes.

And you too.Thank you.I.

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