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You're welcome back. It's part two of our first remote road show in partnership with Cadbury FC. We're going to be doing quite a few of these with Cadbury's over the next while. You can check out the come for updates on promotions and giveaways we have to keep on giving. Still with us to talk about the goalkeeping position, which has changed more than most over the last couple of decades. Here's a quote from you, Packie talking to Michael Walker a while back.
You were talking about the back for changing. I mean, this is for viewers of a certain age to the back pass, really changing. You said to Michael Walker, I was horrified in a way it killed my career, which is it was interesting. You're doing something for twenty years and then someone tells you you can't do that anymore. That was an amazing quote. It horrified me in a way. In a way, it killed my career.
Was the the back pass through changes bodies that feel?
Yeah, well, listen, I was so delighted. I was getting to the end of my career. It was 1983 when the pass back Nelkin. And believe it or not, and some people say that I was a result of this aspect of this short shoulder because McCarthy could not get back to me and with no good, no good milk, try to waste it a little bit of time, especially in the heat and that. And then they changed the rule after that.
And but it came in in 1993 and I was thirty three years old and already so I was I was never really asked to pass the ball out. I was about ticking. I was a big catch and it was about making saves cross. There's all of those type of things and it came in so. So yeah, I had to adopt very quickly, you know. And I always think back on the great goalkeepers role models that I had read Clemens at Jenning's and Joe Corrigan we mentioned earlier and so on.
And how did we get on with the post back in their lives? Like Peter Shelton was a fantastic goalkeeper, World-Class goalkeeper, one of the best. But he couldn't kick the ball that far and they couldn't kick it over, really altered the halfway line. And I always wondered if that was was that real command, then would he be able to adapt and change changes in Jennings? I'm sure because he could do anything like he was, that he was my hero and not.
But I definitely was a big, big culture shock. And the other thing that at that particular time, no coach, no coach looked at it and said, well, this is how we have to get the other players out field to give opportunity to the goalkeeper every pass by. KAMPIA Everybody ran up the pitch. Everybody saw all you could see was numbers on players backs and you had to deal with it. What are you had the first time to get touch and then had it, but there was no can.
A passing year was almost a give it to me, take a touch and kick it up, pitch around to play if you're under pressure. There was no building of the game from the back. So so that was that. So it came in very, very suddenly and very quickly. I always remember a game against Spain down in Spain and Jack Johnson obviously was the manager. And it was one of those nights where they were kept knocking the ball back to me.
And I almost had every ball. You know, when you're playing golf and you have a one eye or a two iron and you actually smacked the ball and it's one of them days you woke up, I had ball. Every ball came back to me. I had the first time and I smacked it and I went straight up to John Aldridge are up to twenty Casspi in the reverse play And I came off the pitch afterwards And just who are hitting the ball.
Well there's one for you and there was no thought process whatsoever in it. I was just kind of hit that ball first time and can I make a connection. And that's really what it was about. It's only probably even in the last what would you say maybe the last ten to fifteen years that people really have been thinking about building it properly even in the early days? I'm sure he had probably the same problems that I had, you know.
Yeah, well, you mentioned the names and numbers I used to get the ball back to it. First came out. It was like nobody wanted the ball back off me. It was kind of like. Got no solution. Just go back to keep our word getting off the pitch. So your job, Joe, was declared as far as you could. I would love to play with the two center house splitting the wingbacks hire. The number six is dropping in to play out and have all these options on the ball.
And it was it was the opposite for me. But I think it definitely helped the game.
As you say, package is wasting time and stuff. Remember, they all saw the pictures and the guys pick. And it's funny when you see Goalkeeper's picking the ball up now, you know, young kids were waiting to study or whatever. What was he picking the ball or was that not a free kick? You know, they don't know any different. The kids know they they're grown up playing with a ball defeat to the keepers and stuff. And I think it's more of the game on in a good way.
Actually, it's kept the game, especially if you're just wasting time with Harvey. And but everybody has to be nearly as good with these with his feet as he does with his aunt.
I mean, your job is to keep the ball in the net, but you look at probably the best examples. Ederson and Manchester City. For me, he's just a phenomenal goalkeeper. Very good. With his hands, with his feet, you will not see a better probably player or passer of the ball and and world football. You know, if you ever get a chance to go watch one city and get there early and watch the goalkeeper, one of Ederson is just absolutely phenomenal with the ball at his feet.
That's the that's the top. You know, we're all probably striving to get there and work with the goalkeeper as a and of course, to try and improve their their kicking and stuff. And you think we do lots of stuff with our hands and training. But then when it comes to a match day, you've probably got the exact stats when we 70 percent with your feet and 30 percent with your hands. And also you have to take that on when you're planning a session.
You have to think of the of the of the kids and the goalkeepers. They have to improve and have to be so much better with the ball at their feet, have to be comfortable, have to use the goalkeeper as a as basically a player when you have possession. So the game has moved on a lot.
Yeah. The other big interesting you go back to my day was the the pictures. You know, I look back at some of the pictures, my God, the ball was moving and what you had to do is almost keep your eye in the ball to try to be able to take that ball and have your head that first time especially, you had to almost keep your eye so you couldn't actually see get your head up to see. No players can actually have their head up almost to the last second and know what was happening with the opposition and how they're closing down and so on.
So that's it. That's been a big, big change. The balls also, by the way, even the balls I remember being up in Scotland in the makeable used to be horrible, which is to get all the water in. And there was no almost plastic skin. And no, the balls are completely different also. So so there's been a lot of advances and change, but the big, big change didn't to the big change has been in coach and Joe, there's no question about that.
And what we've been trying to do over and she's been on the coast and Northern Ireland, which I run into, is trying to get the goalkeeper coach now to not just be a technical coach or be worked on the physical, but work now in the technical side. That means then that he has to have so much different relationship with the head coach and assistant coach and so on, and try to think about the technique and say the game. Yes, the most important thing, the most important thing is still keeping the body in that.
Absolutely. That's no. You know, but the other part of it, because of the stats that she talked about, 70 percent with your feet when you're in touch with the ball, is that means then that you have to adapt your training accordingly. And and that's been the biggest and the big lesson that we all have to adapt to change. The funny thing the funny thing for me, if I go back to my early coaching days, I begin to come the goalkeeper coach, Celtic Ireland.
We weren't doing any of that type of work. We definitely had to do a little bit more on on passing and so on. But no real tactical work. There was very much isolated work and I only worked with Shane, Allen, Kelly and Dean and so on, and maybe watch what Mick McCarthy was doing or Tommy Boy just saw. But six months later, I got a job reading with Tommy as assistant manager. And because my title changed as a goalkeeper coach to an assistant coach, I now could take the players, I could take the back for, I could take the midfielders, I could be the goalkeepers, and I could put on sessions and start that whole process of learning how to become a coach.
And that was my learning, I suppose, from a perspective as a young man. And I got that opportunity. Moscow goalkeeper coaches go straight from playing into court, Cuban coaches, and they don't get that opportunity. And that's why the educational side now is very, very important to them. And I know she's been through and he may want to say something on on his experience of going on the course and then getting the job. Now, what Koku does with you in relation to a Dutch coach, I'm not sure what you're expected.
Mm hmm. Yeah. Packinghouse, as I said, done the course up in Belfast. And, you know, it wasn't about cuts of all Olga. It wasn't about, you know, seven misconceives. And it's about the near of taking the gloves off as a coach and actually to looking at the opposition look and how they press a goalkeeper, how you would set up as a team. What do you want from a goalkeeper in your back for and different things and cockies really good.
In that sense. He's really open to everything he does. He shares everything for me from a learning point of view, as fantastic as well. And last couple of days of just saying David Marshall actually Derby and last year Wiggins's a week and of course and probably didn't look to play at that much from the back, or he probably was a bit more direct, whereas we we proper like one player from the back, I want to keep possession of the ball and so I'm going to have to adapt.
David, in the sense of a not that he's not comfortable, but his feet have looked at him carefully. Obviously when when you recruitment a softball. You know, I spoke to Phillip yesterday about next week doing sessions with the back for and maybe a couple of midfielders and stuff and just getting three or four strikers to be closing them down and just have that sort of calmness when the ball comes back to him and just building it up, that sort of.
Just as we mentioned before, but the work, the belief and how we want to play and a different manager, a different system and a different club that Davis Jordan, so he has to adapt to that as well. And my job with the managers is to if they get that message through to him and obviously the professional defenders in front of him as well.
And it's such an interesting area at the moment in football because security teams and their high pressin is better than ever and more organized than ever and more deadly than ever. Like we saw Real Madrid come on down against Manchester City. There are countless examples. So at the level you're at, there must be a risk assessment here. Like why, why? Why are we taking this chance? How do you come to the conclusion that we are much better off taking the chance of playing it for the back?
And obviously, if we if we get caught in possession discussing our own goal, we're in big trouble. What's the logic? Or is it just more of a philosophy? I don't know. Can you come up with this risk and reward? You think if you have the ball, keep the ball? We could pass through the different thirds of the pitch that you always give and keep the ball rather than an old school lunch up to the bigman and hopefully that you get the nocturnes or whatever it is.
I think the game has moved on so much. I think you've got to get the balance right, because recently we've all seen by Munich dismantle Barcelona and they're very good with the baldish feet as well. But in the first half it kept playing and playing and playing as if they didn't have a plan B Dabi a team. High pressure doesn't really cause all the high pressure. And we try Mr. Press, you know, not to create the space for a striker, the number nine knockout and then maybe a winger's come in and your your midfielders back it up because it was nearly of suicide for the alternate one is what's watching Sustagen.
And no one or anyone or anyone said like, hang on a minute there.
This is a paramedic was was getting so many chances on the goal. It was it was just it was ridiculous. So they're stagnant and experienced goalkeepers. They all failed at some point in the first divestures. Right. I'm going to try to play a bit longer up the Suarez or try and drop it on the message or whatever. He just he just kept persisting with both the play. And that's that's not right either. So you have to get the balance right by the opposition set up against you, of course.
But as a darbee, we want to keep the ball as much as we can. But at the same time, the gaffer will say, right, if it's if it's risky, I was too too much of a high pressure in the opposition. They we're going to mess that up.
How can I come and go? Because I've done a lot of analysis now on the Champions League and Europa League. And to be honest, I think you're absolutely right that the teams probably overdo it. It's all about getting the opportunity for the goalkeeper. And she's absolutely right in this one. Also is that, you know, John coaches, our coaches take all get to build the game from the back. What does that mean if the opportunity is there?
Yes, she can play it the and a half way or maybe a midfielders. But if the press comes in from really high, then the spaces are higher up the pitch. So you've got to be able to have that ability as a goalkeeper to see that. And also the players have got to give you the opportunity to to exploit that space high up the pitch. So it's when you work on the pitch as a coach now, you've got to work with the whole team and you've got to work with the other coaches to create those opportunities.
If you look at probably before and was probably the best goalkeeper for a goalkeeper who can he's No. Forty two still, by the way, on the bench at Juventus. But he had to adapt his game over the years, but he got the players in front of them playing three the back and the two centre has almost went to the baseline to create even more space and more opportunity for him. And if you look now at Inter Milan, they're doing exactly the same.
Go down on one side with the on the touchline. What that means, then, is that those players are pressing. They've got to go even ten, 15 yards higher to make contact with the ball. That creates even more space, higher up the pitch. And the goalkeeper has got to be able to make decisions now. And how do you make decisions? You can make decisions if you're just doing passing individual work just on the pitch, fine.
You'll do your technique work, but you've got to be able to make those decisions within game related practice. And that's the big, big change from our late Navroz goalkeeper coaches. For me, yes, we'll work individually, there's no question about that. But we have got to go into the training sessions, what the other players association says and so on. That's been a bit evolution. That has been a big, big change and probably over the last maybe, say, six years that that knowledge and in some countries it's still a big challenge because the the head coaches who are older don't really believe that that that that is happening.
But that's what's going on. And your question about why do you do it is about trying to keep possession of the ball, but trying then to go from transition to defend straight into transition, to attack very, very quickly. And you can do that with one pass or three or four passes, depending on the situation.
Say, what about concentration as a goalkeeper? Because unlike the outfield players who are pretty much engaged the whole time, there probably are moments where as a goalkeeper, you can afford to. Switch off, nobody's going to necessarily notice if you're stood there with your hands on your hips and the balls and the other half, I mean, you can think what's for dinner tonight and the world probably won't end. So I would suspect, you know, people have ups and downs in life, personal things going on.
Who knows what's going on. You might have things in your mind. Did you try and stay regimented, focused on the game and where the ball was at all times? Or was it was it even a good thing to switch off during a game for a minute?
Yeah, it just reminded me of four o'clock jewelries. I do a couple of years ago. This was just followed behind the goal it and the young kid and goal lost concentration and the ball was coming in and the Dodgers comes and pushes him over the ball and they knock on the replay that Igbos leave it like it was just raging.
They started I thought, if you remember, seen up all the concentration, you switched off and forgot what you share with your dad behind the goal when you were young was she was behind the direction.
Yeah, my dad was was mad man behind the goal when I was a kid.
Oh, I don't like rage at me. Like every two seconds it was like but it was just is obviously passion and want me to do well and stuff, you know. But he was always he's always barking orders by asking me about a good advice when I was a kid as well. You should always say with the balls up the other side of the you say like to keep your concentration levels high. I would say sort of walk around the box or just on the edge of the box, but follow the play, you know, walk.
Just keep walking and keep keep your main focus because you say it's easy.
Sometimes they'll take it over the crowd or Scholten or start reading advertising blitz, flicking up on the side of the pitch or whatever it might be. You know, next thing, the ball's in your box and or maybe out of position or something, you know. So that's probably think for young kids as well. You have to try and stay really focused. Remember, Pakistan is like after games as well.
Sometimes if you just shook and with sweat, I'm like putty didn't make any sense on the body, just like I don't maybe make it up.
And he said, yeah, but it's the concentration levels of a goalkeeper. And I got to that level as well with the concentration with so much and so the big games that yeah, sometimes you wouldn't make us safe in a game. We would have very little to do, but you'd still be drenched because of the focus and the concentration of us have to be really so high at the level we both played it because the other guys got I played well today.
Zero. Yeah, I was good.
Joe, I think the other big change is that you have to be composed to not you know, you have to you have to be ready before that ball comes back to you. And you have got to be in a sense of composure, you know. And my dad was about almost adrenaline rush to keep him because we're looking for Cross' Goalkeeper's uncomfort crossette, but we the comedic among them and catches against big guys and that and you're almost building yourself up to have that physical contact.
Now, is it about just almost Cowman calming yourself down and keep thinking keep living the game as we talk about of being composed when the ball comes to, you know, Packy, was there ever time I asked this environment of David to hire and what a strange two years he's having?
Was there ever a time where you lost confidence? Absolutely. Absolutely. I lost confidence in the World Cup in 94, and I don't know why I listen. I do know why. Now, looking back on it and it was down to really about I was kind of a dependent personality also. I'm very much an organized type person. I like to have my my my boots ready. I like to have my gloves ready. And before I like to have the strap on on the I like I like to be in my own time and I love all of that type of stuff and see what not when you get to that point.
And that's going well and you're in control. But when you lose control of that and maybe an associate in America, I thought that's what can upset me because we couldn't train for the full hour that we normally train for. We couldn't train properly to intensity that we train because of the heat was uncredible. We didn't have a goalkeeper coach that could talk it through and tell you that you were OK. You didn't have a psychologist. Jerry Payton was no longer there as more of a confidant.
It was Allen and Allen was younger than me. So so I didn't have that sort of almost environment around me to even though I was thirty four years old, I was almost up. So confidence sort of almost went down very, very quickly at me. And I'm not saying that's what caused me making the big mistake the Americans think, but I just didn't feel one hundred percent. And just times in their career I remember actually playing with Celtic and probably around about nineteen eighty four, eighty five they behave as a manager.
I felt absolutely brilliant, brilliant in training, felt unbeatable at times and training. And you get those periods and then other times. I couldn't make a save that can wait. So at the main, this probably is much more important than maybe anything else. And and if that sort of goes especially for Goalkeeper's point of view, then certainly it can affect you big, big time. I don't know if you've had those times in your career or so on that that probably really affected you, but it's not an easy area to get control of.
And when you're standing as a coach trying to talk to young people, how do you actually get inside? Their main goal setting is a big thing that we talk about also and goalkeeping coach and creating your own goals and setting about and come up with positive programs. But the goalkeeper coach has to buy into all that. That's not an easy area. And that's maybe where the psychologists come into it a little. But I don't know. You made it more experience.
I think I was sort of a 23 24 and I was program worst critics or made a mistake. I was so hard on myself. I was, you know, couldn't get it over, not couldn't get over, but kept thinking about what the game was going on and stuff. And that's the worst thing you can have as a goalkeeper. You make a mistake and you're thinking about how to manage to do that or whatever the game, you still get 70 or 80 minutes to play in the game.
And also, I remember play Blackburn away once and I think I came across an adopted our children and the guy who shot and EcoStar adjustment in the lane, our center half and he said that he's on. So after about five minutes is a penalty, which in my head is my fault because we've got a less away from home, so we'll not end up losing something like five. I think, Joe, we got battered up against against Blackburn, but for the rest of the game, I was kind of thinking about that mistake.
And I was like, oh, I think I might have been windfall for at least one or maybe two more goals in that game. And I was like, there must be something I can do to to, you know, just take it on board myself that there must be somebody who can help me, because back then it was maybe seen as a weakness. You know, if you or if you need the psychologist or he needed someone to talk to, I mean, just just get on with it.
Like, you know, there's that sort of mentality or, you know, get yourself dust yourself down. You'll be fine, but. I just took it on myself. Think there must be somebody who can help me and I went to see the physio Newcastle at the time, Derek Radovic is still there, actually. And he he suggested this guy in Cardiff who was a sports psychologist, who actually was a goalkeeper as well. And he's and he's sort of on his team and he's younger and stuff.
He also understood the position, you know, as you say, to as long periods in the game. You could make a mistake and you might not touch the ball again for 20 minutes. So it's like you have to have sort of things to tidy at all. Mistake management, call it what you want, but things triggers you have to do in a game. If you make a mistake, the park at the one site, maybe reopen it after the game when the game's over and deal with it that way.
And but I felt that from then onwards, working with Richard Nolan, the guy's name was was was fantastic for me personally, had helped me to go on to, I think, another level and helped to improve. And as Pikelny says, I think what goes on between your ears is so important and sometimes overlooked by by different people. And I think it's it's a huge part of the game. I think.
I think. Can I ask you sorry if if you if you can see the go and you're watching the opposition celebrating and the ball has gone up and tape off is about to happen and you're still with your hands on your hips. That was me. And I know that was me and everyone knows that was me. When you got to grips with your routine of dealing with the mistake, what was then going on in your head? What was the the the the mark that you used to get kicked in again for the rest of the game?
Well, the first thing was body language. I think probably that they're Blackburn. If you look at my body language, I would have been that you shake my head. But the next thing you got to show to the world and people, you know, there's cameras all over the place as they walk around tall and go just bring it on the next thing in your pocket, the one side straightaway. And body language is a massive thing. I think in any sport in this city, surely you're not affected, even though you might be a little bit affected.
You just go sort of tunnel vision, focus on the game at hand. And with the different things we do, it would take a long time to explain it all. But, you know, little things. But the mistake and the bag and setting it up, we'll revisit it after the game. Lots of different things, how to deal with, you know, mistake management stuff. But it was key to focus on the next sort of thing.
You're going to get involved next involvement in the game the next time the ball's going to come. You're not thinking about that mistake. Mm.
I would I would suspect putting it in the bag and tying the bag, saying I will deal with that later is important because the perfectionist and he was going to want to examine the mistake. So you always have to tell yourself, look, don't worry, we'll analyze this to death. We absolutely will. But now is not the time is the point. Yeah, well, some mistakes you can look back at and think, well, should have done this, should it or not.
You know, from a pure technical point of view, know, if you remember the goal at Coventry and Dublin sneak behind me. It was it was it was probably replayed about a million times at this stage. But that's something to look back on. And I've sort of been shoved down my throat quite a few times. But, you know, I'd never want to throw the ball that after that incident. I've also learned from it. I've never threw the ball over locker room looking behind me.
I'm quite obsessed with it because I went for a cross and I took a cross and there was I don't even know. And he sort of sat in the advertising board and and it was when the new six second rule came in as well, that first season, sort of like looking for share to move, obviously didn't move that much. So I was like, OK, what do you do? So I've put the ball down and the dogs jumped off the advertising board, sneaked up Bahamian and stuck it in the net.
And then if I deliver the only Irishman not in over doubleness so far for the rest of my career, but but again, you analyse that you made a mistake. If you've got a pocket, they wouldn't say Joe and think the rest of the game will enough off. I think, Rob, he's got a screamer to get us to draw that then and sort of spare me blushes a little bit.
Not as great as he or she is talking about that whole, you know, the model that he has and so on and going through that process of having a psychologist there and just giving you a process to think about these little things, some process work for for certain people in different ways. And I think that's a big change also has come into it in our day. We didn't have and she was absolutely right. If you made a mistake and it was a sign of weakness, if you went to somebody and you went to talk to somebody about it or so on, so forth, so.
So now now that's very much evident in the game that the psychologists have a role to play. Now they can overdo it. I remember Dean Kelly also.
He had a little use of a little note, and I don't know what he wrote on it, but he's behind the goal, you know, whether that was his comfort blanket or whatever. But he used to have a little thing in the goal, had things written on it. So everybody has their own way of dealing with things. But it's a process. And if you can get it, fantastic. I didn't have that maybe opportunity to to almost go through that, thinking it out because psychologists were there.
And if you went to a psychologist, forget it. Forget it. You know, you're almost actually had to go the opposite way. You almost have to say, I'm going to be just brave here and almost tell people we made a mistake, false. And I'm the guy. And you cannot put on this bravado just to say that you were above it all or otherwise you would just crumble and many people didn't crumble.
Yeah, I'm sure they did say there was one last aspect I want to ask you about. You mentioned there even Jerry Payton being a confidant and really missing him at USA. Ninety four and goalkeepers are slightly strange, unlike your players, in that they are often training and spending a lot of time directly with their rival. You are included in Kyrie, you're in the bunch, but equally one of you gets to play the others who don't. How did you find that in your career generally?
Was there a good relationship with, say, you and the number two and the goalkeeping group or could it be slightly tricky terrain to be spending all that time with somebody you're reviling with for competent for the number one jersey?
Yeah, well, if I was not all the time playing, but a good majority, the time when I was in the squad I played. So it was probably easier for me to deal with. But I did obviously go to the eurozone in recent years that I didn't play. Don Randall played and I felt that was more of a. A sort of support network for Darren to to to be at his best. We had a great tournament actually in France, but it was a different sort of aspect.
That was later in my career. I was only praying and I wasn't playing that. I don't know how I would have reacted. But to be fair to did Kelly and Alan Kelly and the people you mentioned, you know, they were always great support for me and trade. And we would help each other in trade and we would keep each other going and always wish us well before the game. We wanted the best for for the country. We wanted the best for, you know, when you couldn't play at a club level.
Think of Steve Harper's at Newcastle. Long number of years was good friends of mine, but we're still vying for that number one jersey. But we kept pushing me and we kept helping each other and train as much as we could. And that's just we talked before about the union, the goalkeeper's union. We you know, it is it is a fact. We do. We are sort of what are we want to it a strange breed of things.
But we do stick together as well. We know the position. We know the pressure that comes with the position playing a goal. You know, if you make a mistake nine times out of ten, it's going to be a goal. And the word the word eyes are focused on you.
So there is a lot of pressure with playing and goals, but they should not road and use that as a positive. Always felt the pressure, as I said to the start, was was was something you wanted to have got into a game and tension and nerves and whatever. It's all a sort of concoction of to get the best out of it. And that was part and parcel of playing at the top level.
Joe, I think also on that point, I think most goalkeepers realised that I'm in the position today and the other guys are helping me. It could be them the next day. You know, even if you're a backup, you say, well, I need help, maybe next or next month if I'm in that position so we can have that bond together from that perspective. Also, when there's rivalry there, it's the kind of our respective rivalry. And I think that works really well.
Now, you'll get the odd one or two that maybe I don't know. I think Ian's Lehmann then. Was it Neuer or not the name of the nominees?
I think it was late.
And when you think it still didn't get on, it didn't get on that very well. And that's you know, you will have the exception. But in general terms, I think goalkeepers always and we go together to go when we go out in the turn we go together and have a few beers, you know, and that's that's the other thing. You know, the forwards are the ones who's out on the dance floor and all that. We're in the bar having a chat with the business end.
Yeah. Yeah. More refined bunch and a big couple of months coming up for Irish football. Share your thoughts on Stephen Kenny coming to the job. I asked this because Jason McTear, by his own admission and made all sorts of headlines when he was talking in the last couple of days and he was saying, you know, he was referencing back to Brian Carey's time. And he was wondering about, I suppose, to put it bluntly, is there a certain snobbishness, snobbishness in the dressing room when a manager come in from League of Ireland or under-age steps up into the international job?
Stephen Kenny is doing that now. What's your sense of all that Urofsky in addressing when Brian Care was there? And you'd have a bit of a sense of the dressing room now. I can understand a little bit, I think, Joe, but I'm quite excited about Stephen Kenny being the manager. I know he likes to talk about buildup up the back, and he does like the possession. The ball likes to keep pull the ball. He likes to, you know, have a more possession best sort of game.
And I think it's going to be interesting to see, you know, for the players to adapt. But I do think we have the players who can adapt because I usually think at times on the role of manager out in the Trapattoni McCarthy, all the managers work with Brian Care, whatever we were at times. But to direct in my life and in the way that we talk about the game moving on and stuff, and I think it's going quite well, hopefully, and be quite refreshing to think that, you know, we have got good enough players to keep possession of the ball and try and build through the different things.
And yes, at times you have to we'll have to kick it long. But I think it's going to be interesting to see how Stephen does Nazis' coaches. I know he's got them dolphin and confounders as well, who, you know, young coaches and know the game pretty well as well. So it's going to be an interesting mix. I think the angle Jason's coming up was more the I suppose not managing big personalities. And money's not a big club.
And the pressure that comes with that Steven Stevens interview with he won't get a bigger job than us is the biggest job, even if he moves on to a club football after, you know, this is the this is the pinnacle of his career as a manager and and I suppose rightly so, the manager is a phenomenal thing. So we as a nation, we have to get behind them, no matter who the manager been been before. I play for it.
And we were always huge supporters of the manager. And and I think that's key, you know, that we get behind Steven and his team and hopefully they can they can qualify because I'd have to say said you'd be disappointed if given the job he has done.
Admittedly, we Dundalk talk and that might be looked down upon by certain players, but a brilliant job within European football where they've played an excellent brand of football and even the job is done with the under twenty one. The place has been phenomenal, like our twenty ones are playing some fantastic football and getting results. You know, he's made all those transitions out brilliantly. I you think no one in that dressing room has a right to be in any way feeling?
Well, this is somehow an inferior CV to one I should be working with.
No, definitely not. And I'll tell you the same to pull an Irish jersey. I don't know. You could have Mike Bastard in charge or whatever football manager. You just you just just just want some sort of organization. But as I say, for me personally, from a culture point of view, it'll be interesting to see us play. And I try and keep the ball and keep possession of the ball. And the pressure will that as well, Joe, because in a sense, the fans will maybe, maybe need a level of education in the sense as well that we're changing the style of play a little bit and and how we want to, as I say, keep the ball bottled up in the back.
And and I suppose fans, all fans want to do is get as qualified.
I suppose they don't care how we get there by a long ball or keeping the ball or possession ball. We talk about just getting the balance. But I'm really intrigued by how it's all going to sort of pan out and how Stephen sets his team up. And yeah, and hopefully I think the challenged up to his style of play.
Yeah, I think the challenge for Stephen will be the transition period of getting those younger group of players. Maybe some of them are not playing in the first teams. You know, they're not getting a run of games maybe to make that big step into the international. But there's a big difference between club and intermeshed, even on the twenty one getting up. The senior team is she she will know that. Sure. And getting that sort of transition between the group that he had or McCard, the the older of you experience and bringing in the young ones and getting that right, because at the end of the day it's about winning, you know, the rest he's taking on the qualification that from that that could go and go in the right direction, which would be fantastic.
That gives him a little bit of time to make sure she sees that whole adaptability to the way that he wants to play and so on. But if it doesn't go, then the pressure is on right away and then you go into your qualification games. And unfortunately, at any international level, your qualification now is almost a must to stay in a job. But that's that's the challenge for any young manager. Yeah. Know, and I hope it goes really well for Stephen and we wish him well as share regencies.
Every manager takes on that. Do you want them to do the very best work? Because we're a supporters and we want to be out there supporting them in the big tournaments. But you've got to get that qualification and that's the challenge. And, you know, he's got to bates' the cherry know the qualification process and then the next one and see how it goes. But yeah, we want to see him play. And she is right. And the way that probably the game has moved, all we want to see, can they actually change a little bit and play.
But you've got to get results. What that to impacting you were part of the brain care.
Did you feel that he suffered from a lack of respect for the dressing room because of his CV at that stage? I didn't think so because he had you know, he had he had all of that young group that he had great results. What brand? Brazzi and Nikaido brain is different kind of character than probably most moderately so intense in the game. He had Christian, who was a great coach, around about a great professional also, and he filled a gap.
Bill O'Reilly was there obviously as confident, as tall as friend and that. But I didn't I didn't really think that that there was maybe any disrespect for Brian. Brian was unfortunate to me, but to that he was only in the job two years. You know, almost any any international manager must be given that for me, at least four years now, maybe into your second block of two years. You know, the second blow that if things aren't going well, then they make change, but at least give them four years to see what he can do.
Can you change the squadron? Can you adapt to the way that he's thinking and so on, maybe get older guys out of the system that he feels isn't going to do it and then change one. But four years is a, you know, a generous period. But two years is really, really difficult. So I feel really sorry for right from that perspective. It wasn't given that extra couple of years to seek to actually move it on again and get that, as I say, qualifications.
The key thing, you know, to be one of the games, I'm sure it's interesting you made the point that you thought we were a bit more direct under a couple of managers across maybe a decade or so than we might have been otherwise. So you definitely feel we had the players to play a better brand of football, because I suspect if you were to talk to Trap in his private moments, he'd say, now, you know, I did what I did with them.
That's that's the level they were not having to share.
Trapattoni obviously phenomenal manager around the world and.
Yeah, and Fantastics achieved with Ireland as well. I'm sure he'd argue, look, I did not do all right with them.
Yeah. Yeah, true. The technical sort of stuff. I got some troubles to the ball and kick it straight down the middle of the pitch. Had to strike or else hit the center of two winger's on two midfielders. Back it up and we'll get the second bolt. And I always felt that we were we were better than we had better players than to at least try and play a little bit when we could. But I was just as I said, everyone's different here.
Look at our team. I think maybe you're not good enough. Maybe ask me just thinking we are good enough. Maybe we weren't good enough. And he obviously a great manager in his career. We thought this is a better way to play. We'll get results, but. I just feel that a lot of players, you know, we've got players with a lot of players and you play for Ireland, the current players I'm talking about, you know, a lot of the club football they play, they play with the possession base football, they play with balls at the bar and stuff.
And then I always felt would go out and stuff. It was we didn't see too much that we didn't see, you know, playing out too much. We maybe started playing a little bit more this time around, I suppose, and a bit more organized maybe than previously. But I've just intrigued to see how it's going to work out.
How can these players adapt to this? And playing for your country and having the, you know, the the bravery to play it on the pressure? Because it's you know, it's it's it's it's high stakes as parking says, qualifications, all of matters. But, you know, Stephen Kenny will be vigilant to them. This is how he wants to play. This is what we want to do and know. And if the players buy into it, which I'm sure they will, then it'll be it'll be really hopefully successful times ahead.
I agree you I think it's one of the reasons a lot of people are quite excited is that maybe for the first time we're going to have a manager coming on board who is just unequivocal about the fact that he wants the team to play possession football. It's not a sports. Maybe this is how we're going to play and we're finally going to see how that works for an Irish team. Well, you know, listen, I don't know how Stephen's going to think when he gets into those first couple of games, he might say, OK, great, but I need to win games here.
I might have to change and adopt a little bit from that philosophy. Philosophy is one thing, but we all have a philosophy. Let's not play with Celtic Football Club. And we had a philosophy of play in the game out. And so I went to Russian football. It's slightly different because we had to win games and over a very short period. So everything is you have a philosophy, but you have to adapt to the players that you have and won games.
And Stephen might start off that way and he may have to change a little, but that's up to him and the staff to come up with a way of winning games, because ultimately that's international football. I'll tell you what's really important is to make a connection between what the international teams are doing and the young players they are. And she talked about and the senior players have a kind of almost a bit of a continuity from way that are taught and the way that they play into the senior team.
I think that's probably been missing a little bit, that connection. Now, Steve is going to this international director of football. I don't know what that means. I don't really know how it differs from the high performance director. All of that's kind of I don't know how it works, but there's been fantastic work done. What the call the brains of Tom dad, Jimmy Crawford's now going to number twenty one level. Those guys down there have done a tremendous job with a lot of young there's a lot of good young talent coming through.
Stephen's now the beneficiary of a little bit he was he had the middle of the twenty one level. So they know his style, but I keep going back to it. He will have to adapt to get results. Senior international football is completely different and underage, but having a connection to it and making sure that we have a philosophy going forward, a strategy to say that these young players are going to get the opportunity. That's all the business of the FBI now.
And please don't underestimate how important international underage people is. And that's where the money has to be spent because our young players don't get the opportunity at the big clubs to play in European football too often. And they have to learn what differences European football and what it means then to play international at the high level. And making those connecting your laptop for me is the way ahead of that strategy. Yeah, well, I guess we're going to see how it all plays out.
Very lastly, Shea, are you hoping to get into coaching head coach managerial role, or will it be goalkeeping coaching or have you figured all that out yet?
Hmm, good question, Joe. Good question. To finish up at the minute, my Headspaces signed a three year contract with the third year.
That contract, only the first year, obviously worked on the Frank Lampard and Jodie Morris this season, obviously with Philip Cockier last season, whatever it is. You know, with the Dutch guys in different styles, different, you know, managers and and I'm going to see this right, if I then make a decision maybe in the summertime, um. I feel like I've got more to offer, I feel like I could do a package, sort of got the initiative as an assistant manager, as you mentioned, that reading, I do feel that I could maybe step up.
I feel like it would be a step up to be an assistant, perhaps somewhere or a first time coach, maybe to to coach more players and try and sort of go down that route. That's me, sort of. Sort of burning desire on the back of my head, be it right or wrong, Joe, I don't know what I meant, but that's you know, I'm learning every day. As I say, I've got a great manager.
And Philip Cockies, as I say, very open and very honest with everything helps, you know, anything. Any questions I've got on how the game should be played or anything? He's he's very open and for me is learning every single day. So, yeah, part of me wants to be down the road, hopefully maybe a culture or a manager one day perhaps.
Do you want to get gray hair very quickly? That's what you get when you go into management.
That's my hair short at the sidelines is very great to say. So I'll keep it really short kind of spirit that well, not a focus on the hair, the season. What do I have a lot of focus. What do what do goalkeepers know about and feel play. I'm sure that's the feeling in the game, as I say right away.
Sorry, Joe. I'm going to put there who won the Europa League this year.
Julian love attacking goalkeeper himself. Yeah, he'll keep himself there. One game rules versus rules, rules, two goalkeepers ex goalkeepers up against each other. And that was that. A quarterfinal. Not says it all for me.
That says it all I do. You come up against that perception. Say a little bit goalkeeper.
Probably a little bit. Gioia I think a little bit. Right. Because I said a couple of times to if you have a few players, different things that you should have done, sometimes take it on board. But the take time, one of the block and go. He's a goalkeeping coach. What does he know about my positional sense as a right winger, a left winger? However, I spoke to at the time, it was kind of like, so you have to get over that sort of hurdle?
Yeah, I think we're part of a coaching team. Yeah, my my head is head of the goalkeeping department. But at the same time, you know, we talk about all the games have played in the experiences we've had with all these different managers and coaches for your career. I think if any coaches anything, dear, I think it would be naive of a player not to take it on board because genuine you're trying to help the guy out and trying to improve his game.
So there is probably a little bit of a stigma when you've got the the title of goalkeeping coach.
But, you know, as I said, if I moved on from that, perhaps maybe a first team coach, an assistant or whatever, then perhaps I was yeah, there was a discussion around that at UEFA level when we were putting coaching courses together, but maybe even changing the title a little bit to be a coach with specialization for goalkeeping. But what we had, what we did do, and she knows this, is that all goalkeeper coaches at the highest level that needs not just have a GOKMEN coaching certificate, they also have to have their own field badges so that they know and they get back.
That is for for for being a coach and understanding the game was always about building credibility among the other field staff.
Yeah, yeah, I can imagine. Listen, fellas, it's been fantastic. We've touched on a whole bunch of things here on our first remote road show in partnership with FC, you can check out Carbury FC dot com for updates on promotions and giveaways. We've got more shows coming up with Carbury over the wire. But to our two goalkeepers, the two boys from going to go, don't go. It was great. I didn't fully realize how kind of close relationship you had from such a long way back.
So it's been brilliant to listen to some of the stories this evening. Packie Bonner, Shay given. Thanks very much, fellas. The Off the Ball podcast on OTB Sports Radio, Ireland's first and only sports radio station, that was an OTB podcast, Network Presentations.
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