Hello, friends, welcome to the show. This episode, the podcast is brought to you by on it on it is a total human optimization company. We specialize in things that help improve your performance, whether it's physical performance through strength and conditioning, equipment, supplements or.

Bodyweight workouts, the ONet six body weight at home workout program, everyone stuck at home right now. Right? It's a lot of people that are stuck at home and you're trying to figure out how to get a workout in because the gym is closed. We got a solution for you on its chief fitness officer, John Wolf. And his group of world class instructors have designed some fucking fantastic fitness programs. And one of them is the on it six body weight at home workout program.

And it's now available for your PlayStation four, who you can stream workouts directly from your TV through the little star app on your PlayStation four today. And John Wolf was talking about on his chief fitness instructor is a fantastic instructor. He is absolutely one of the best minds that I've ever encountered when it comes to just a depth of knowledge on strength and conditioning and fitness and just overall wellness.

The program focuses on improving your strength, your conditioning and your overall fitness and well-being. And much research has shown that when a person is vigorously active and in shape, they maintain a stronger immune system in addition to greater mental acuity and physical endurance. Working out from home has never been more convenient, and there's no need for any fitness contraptions or purchasing more equipment that you don't have. Just streamed the program from your PlayStation four through the little star app today.

Start today and you could be looking and feeling your best in just six short weeks.

Were also brought to you by Trager Grills, my absolute all time favorite way to cook. There are so convenient and so simple and easy to use, but yet so well engineered and so perfectly designed. I love these things. First of all, if you don't know what a trigger is, it's a pellet grill and what a pellet grill is. It's a real simple way to cook, and that is just wood and fire. But the way it works is if you buy lumber from a heart, you know, hardwood, lumber, like, OK, well, they take the sawdust from that and they compress it using the natural sugars of the wood.

And that's how they create these little pellets. So there's no chemicals or nothing. You pour these pellets into the hopper in the trigger grill. It feeds it through a worm, drive into a heating element, catches fire. And that's what heats and flavors your food. You get that delicious smoky flavor from cherry or oak or apple or whatever kind of pellets you're into. You could try them and mix them and figure out what you're into. But it also works.

The Trager Grill works through their application. Their wildfire application is fantastic. It allows you to raise or lower the temperature of the grill. It plugs in through the meat thermometer, tells you what the temperature of the food you're cooking is.

And it has fifteen hundred plus recipes on the app and you can actually use the application to control the cooking cycle.

So the recipe calls for you to cook at one temperature for X amount of minutes and then lower it or raise it. Well, that's all done through the application. It's a brilliant app and it gives you a bunch of really cool recipes that are delicious and gives you fun, different ways to cook food. And you could do anything with a trigger grill. You can bake, you can grill, you can barbecue, you could smoke. It has a super smoke option where you can from a hundred and sixty five degrees, up to two hundred twenty five degrees.

It'll cook and accentuate that smoky flavor.

I love them. I mean I can't say enough good things about them. You can buy them online or they're available in ten thousand plus stores nationwide.

My absolute favorite way to cook Trager Grills Visit Trager Grills Dotcom Logo.

We're also brought to you by Boutcher Box. Butcher Box makes it easy to get high quality, humanely raised meat that you can trust. They deliver one hundred percent grass fed grass, Finnish beef free range organic chicken, heritage breed pork and wild caught seafood directly to your door. They're a fantastic company and they're very focused on taking care of their members. So for a while now, because of covid-19 in the food shortages, they have not been accepting new members.

They actually started a wait list for new butcher box members, allowing them to focus on quality, safety and service for their current members. Well, last month, as things improve, they've begun to gradually welcome new members off the wait, and they will continue to do so as they safely increase their inventory levels. So for now, they're still asking new members to sign up for the wait list until they're able to welcome the new folks to the table.

I am a giant fan of their food, particularly their grass fed grass, Finnish beef. I love their grass fed grass, Finnish ribis. Those are absolutely my favorite. And they're very, very reasonably priced. You're not going to get these kind of prices at a local supermarket, especially if you live in a big city that's expensive and the quality is as good as any. Where are you going to find anywhere? They have awesome flexibility, their box options and delivery.

Frequencies will fit your needs and you can cancel at any time with no penalty, and they're going to deliver this food directly to your doorstep with free shipping. It's an awesome company. And they work with farmers and fishers who meet the highest standards for quality. You can enjoy high quality meat delivered right to your door and you'll have more time to cook these amazing meals together. Butcher block ships, your order frozen for freshness and packaged in eco friendly, 100 percent recyclable boxes, butcher boxes gradually welcoming new customers.

But only if you're on the wait list. Reserve your spot today at Butcher Box Dotcom Rogan and you will get an email when they're ready to take your order. That's Boutcher Box Dotcom Rogen to reserve your spot. We're also brought to you by Express VPN. Express VPN is a virtual private network company that protects your Internet privacy, which is a very important if you're a person like me who likes to Google shit that you probably don't want anybody knowing you're looking at.

Well, a lot of you're probably thinking, why don't you just use incognito mode? Well, let me tell you something. Incognito mode does not hide your activity. It doesn't matter what mode you use or how many times you clear your browsing history. Your Internet service provider can see every single website you've ever visited you. That's why even when I'm not at home, I don't go online unless I use Express VPN. It doesn't matter if you get your Internet from Verizon or Comcast or wherever the fuck you get it.

ISPs in the US can legally sell your information to ad companies and Express VPN is an app that reroutes your Internet connection through their secure servers so your ISP can't see the sites that you visit. Express VPN also keeps all of your information secure by encrypting one hundred percent of your data with the most powerful encryption available.

Most of the time I don't even realize I have expressed VPN on. It runs seamlessly in the background and it's so easy to use. All you have to do is tap one button and you're protected. Express VPN is available on all your devices, phones, computers, even your smart TV, so there's no excuse for you to not be using it. Protect your online activity today with Express VPN, visit, express VPN, Dotcom Rogan. It's rated the number one VPN by PSINet and Wired.

You can get an extra three months for free on a one year package that's Express VPN Express s VPN Dotcom Rogan. Go there and learn more my friends.

We got through that. I know that was long but it's worth it for this.

My guest today is James Lindsay. He's been on the podcast before with Peter Bogosian. They wrote a bunch of really ridiculous hoax academic papers that were accepted and even praised just to show how really silly.

Some of the stuff that's being taught at universities is today and and he wrote a book with Helen Pluck Rose, and it's called Cynical Theories. I really enjoy his Twitter feed and I really enjoy talking to him. And today was a blast.

Please give it up for James Lindsey government podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience, trained by Joe Rogan podcast by night all day.

You can ride an elephant. I wrote an elephant in Thailand. It was actually they were actually healthy, happy elephants that were well taken care of because it's an elephant rescue.

So they're free, they're free elephants. They wander around and they literally came out of the mist in the jungle like like a movie. It was crazy. And they're treated really, really well.

So I didn't like the writing apart and I thought that was kind of fucked up. But they don't give a fuck, man.

You you are literally like a hat to them. Yeah, they're huge. Yeah. Strong.

But they came over and the whole idea was you pay for this experience with the elephants and in that they rehabilitate these elephants and they released many of them back to the wild. That's good stuff because they can they don't need to be trained to be able to just eat vegetables and let the vegetation, they just do it. So they came over and you were introduced to the elephant that you're going to take care of for the day and then you start feeding it sugarcane and they love you.

So you're feeding them and you touch them.

They're super gentle, like the most gentle creatures. And then you actually clean them off, you wash them off.

And, you know, so there's like this grooming thing. And then when you go to get on them, they know you're trying to get on.

So they actually lift their leg up like this so that you could step away and then you step on them and you climb on top of them. It's difficult, like it's hard to ride them, but they literally don't give a fuck if you're on them because you're so light to them and then they make their way through the jungle.

But it was pretty cool. That's not smart. Yeah, it was pretty cool. It's pretty cool.

It was it's humbling, you know, but that's that's the only way I'd want to be around them other than in the wild. I get bummed out at zoos.

I do too. That's I mean, that's my story. Right. So I've been yelled at for that. That's like the story of Twenty Twenty is getting yelled at for everything. But I wrote it when I was a kid. You could ride elephants at the zoo.

And so I don't know, people got mad at you for that. I mean I told the story about how many people like lost their minds on me because I guess it's not OK now. It was like cost of dollars. They weren't rehabilitating elephants or doing anything good with it. I was like seven notes. I don't really remember it, but it's like times have changed.

He's mad at you for something you did when you were little, which is funny. That's one of the things that's going on now as people are retroactively getting canceled for things, you know, like they did in their kids.

Yeah, it's ridiculous. I mean, it's like everything's a permanent stain on on you. There's no growth. You can't become a better person.

What do you think that is like? What's what's what is the desire that people have to do that?

Like, where's that coming from? Well, you know, there's there's two ways we could talk about it. We can talk about the psychological side of it, which is like us moral purity thing that's going bonkers. Or we could talk about it in terms of the the idea is the theory that's fueling this. And that's all about the has this idea that that comes from French philosophy. The words and ideas and thoughts and patterns have traces that don't ever really go away.

And so if something, you know, used to be associated with something bad and we still use the word, or even if you pretend that it was the case and you still use the word, then it carries a negative trace. So the moral panic and the psychology side of it's fueled by this kind of like stupid idea that words always have to mean kind of what they meant in the first place.

Are people aware of that, though? Is it I mean, is this just conveniently connected to it or conveniently similar when you think that people are actually aware of this concept?

I don't think they I don't think most people do it like they're just so you know, we're generally talking about this whatever woak thing that's happening. Right. And so you're going to think of WOAK kind of like kind of like a church, right?

Like I grew up Catholic. So it's like you got cultural Catholics, like they kind of go to church and maybe they go to confession sometimes and they don't really do. They do it, but they don't really do it. And then you have like the hardcores like I had a friend in high school that, like, took notes at church. Oh, right.

I'm like serial killer. Yeah. It's like you do what you take notes and then, you know, you've got the pastor and he obviously studies that are the priest in a Catholic context and they study it and then you get the theologians that really study it. And so the stuff I'm talking about is like theology level, like that's like the scholars. And then your average person just wants to feel like a good person.

So you've got like the WOAK academics, like the seriously the wog people that are teaching it to kids. Yeah. That really teach it as like critical theory. Like critical race theory. That's right. Yeah.

So those those are the ones that are probably aware of all the nonsense they're making, the nonsense.

I think they pick some of it up from culture, you know, from activist groups or whatever, but then they refine it and turn it into something, you know, has this really weird feeling to it. Like you get the impression that it's like they're wrestling with their inner demons and they're like writing it down.

Yeah. It's like like this book now. White Fragility, right. Robyn Tangelos book White Fragility. It's that's the one that Matt Taibbi destroyed.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank God for Matt Taibbi. Yeah. Thank the baby Jesus and Odan. That's right.

It's so good though, because he's right. He's actually right about it, so. If you read the book, there's all these weird vignettes that she tells these stories, she's like, oh, I went to this potluck for work and I'm walking around. I walk up and I see there's two parties. You were at the park and there's two groups of people. One of them's all black and one of them's not. And I had this moment of panic that I might have to be in the all black group.

And it's like, lady, what's going on, you know? And then it's like all white people are racist is like our conclusion from this.

And it's like me, it's you. She says she had this panic that she was going to have to party at the park with black people now. And she was worried that she was racist because of that. And therefore, all white people are racists.

See, that's what I'm thinking is going on. Right. So I'm thinking I've thought this for a number of years is that a lot of this stuff where you get these, like, WOAK activists doing their blogs or the scholars writing the stuff down is that they're looking at their own lives. So you have these people that are like they're walking down the street, you know, maybe whatever. They walk into the hotel, they walk to the restaurant and they're like, I saw a black guy.

And then it's like, I'm not supposed to notice that. And then they start having, like, this thing in their head. And then they go write an angry blog about how terrible racism is because they're wrestling with it themselves like Sigmund Freud. Right. He had that whole idea that everybody wants to have sex with their mothers.

And like your psychology is all how you resolve that problem.

And it's like maybe you just wanted to have sex with your mother, Sigmund Freud, you know, and now everybody's a racist is kind of the the vibe of the new thing. And it's like this weird religious kind of thing happening around it.

That's really the thing that gets me is how similar this is to religious or religious, not just religious ideology, like how rigid it is, but also indoctrination, like religious cults, how they indoctrinate people. And one of my friends, Kurt Metzger, really funny guy who was a Jehovah's Witness when he was younger. And so he's really, really, really sensitive to this stuff.

It's like I know where this is going, you know, like this is the same thing that I got when I was in the Jehovah's Witness, this cult shit.

Yeah.

It's it's these rigid ideologies that cannot be challenged. You can't in any way veer from the course. That's right.

And they set you up. Right. So every single single one of these things sets you up. So, for example, one of my favorite examples that these kind of like setup's right. Historically in the book I talk about historically, you know, the black feminist came along and they're like, oh, feminisms to white feminism isn't paying attention to black feminist issues of black women's issues. And so then these feminists were like, oh, we have to fix that.

You know, they start writing about black issues to the best of their ability. And then three years later, the lady writes a paper saying, oh, you're just sticking black things in and it's fake and you're tokenized it and you're fetishizing it. And it's like, so you can't do it.

Right. There's that is called the indoctrination. Yeah. So it's like you and I could be, you know, talking about something like this and you could say something like, don't you think it's a little bit racist? And then the next step is like, what are you going to say. You're going to say yes or no. If you say yes and now you've owned it, right now you're like racist. And so I'm like, well, do you interrogate your racism?

Like, do you spend time working on that? And you see you're dragging people into it. Yeah. And if you say no, I can say, well, one of the symptoms of participation in systemic racism is an inability to see it if you're white and it's invisible to you.

And so maybe you need to look harder when it seems like you're going a little defensive who you know, and you start to panic and then you start panicking.

And when you start to panic, when you start to stress out there, like literally this lady emailed me the other day, this this Indian woman, I get a lot of it. I get insane. Number of emails about people.

India. No, no, I'm from Canada, but an insane number of emails from people who are in different different like levels of stress with different things that are happening in their lives around this WOAK explosion that's happened, you know, in the last month or so.

So this lady is like, I had to go through a brown fragility training at work.

What Brown fragilities. So it's not even black now. It's working their way down to brown people. Brown people have forgotten these poor people.

So people who racially were sort of like Switzerland, like Indians, like in India, like no one ever thought they were racist.

Right. You never you never hear about racist Indians. Right. Maybe Russell Peters would joke around about it. Right. You know. You know Russell the comedian.

Yeah. Yeah. And now you hear about it. And what they're doing is that they had that what happened was they explained to the ladies or not the lady. There's like the whole group. It was done in a room, you know, in front of a bunch of people. And they explained brown people in general, like it's some kind of block of brownness or whatever. Brown people have anti black racism, too, and that upholds white supremacy.

Oh, my God. And then they started just doing this. And it's almost like cold reading, right? Yeah.

You know, like that Edwards guy, whatever that guy's name. Yeah. That show.

And so it's like they cold read and they wait for somebody to start looking like they're getting the swear or something happened.

And then they say, now what we need to do now that we've introduced this idea of your brand fragilities, we need to. You're anti blackness is going to interrogate the feelings that came up, and then they go one by one through the room and made every single one of them confess their feelings, like who's not going to participate?

And here's that double bind because it gets to you. Right. And so what do you say?

You say, well, I don't really know what you're talking about. Well, they're going to say you're hearing voices. Yeah, exactly.

And then if you confess to it, then then you're falling in. This is straight up cult indoctrination stuff.

You really is like those people in Game of Thrones.

You remember those those people that almost like took over the crown and kidnapped Searcy, that it is like that sort of pattern, for whatever reason, just seems to reoccur with humans, you know?

And I think it comes down to our natural religious impulses that I think I mean, you know pretty well from my background, you know, I don't believe in God. I'm an atheist. How dare you? Well, you know, we get along. And so it's like I still do think that we have certain impulses underneath that lead people to build religious structures around themselves and have religious, you know, thoughts and feelings and want to have spiritual development and all of this.

And so religions can kind of do one of two things. You know, I used to be kind of hard ass about religion and stuff like, you know, angry atheist kind of picture. But I thought about it more. And what, you're not allowed to think about things and change your mind now. But I did. And what I realized is that some religions look up. They're like looking at God and they're afraid of sin, but they're paying attention to God.

They're thinking about renewal. They're thinking about redemption. They're thinking about forgiveness. And in some religions look down and all they do is look at the sin and they focus on the sin. And that's where the witch hunts came from. That was when the Calvinists got like, you know, fire and brimstone. Jonathan Edwards screaming, you know, sinners in the hands of an angry God. You're hanging on a spider's thread above the fires of hell. And God knock you into it because everybody's full of sin.

Next thing you know, they're killing witches.

So it's like you start focus.

If you look up, you know, then religion can be great. It can actually lead people to spiritual development, community, so on. But if you're looking down, you're going to start obsessing about everybody. If you're obsessing about sin, you're going to start obsessing about everybody else's sin to.

Yes, because you're going to want to like there's this feeling with, again, reading Robin Tangelos. Why fragility is this feeling like.

That she doesn't want to feel alone like she has these struggles and she doesn't want to be alone. So she's a white lady. Oh, yeah. Robyn Tangelos, a white lady who goes in and for like twelve thousand dollars a pop, does these corporate seminars. Once you get 12 grand for two hours and teaches, she goes and tells white people that they're racist and then like interrogates their feelings when they when they get defensive about it.

Oh, my goodness. It's like the biggest corporate corporate training hustle ever. And her idea of fragility, you can't disagree with it. There's no way to disagree. I've absolutely, like, rammed it on some people on Twitter or these folks that come and try to trash me. And I just say, you know, that looks a little bit like white fragility. And I give some reason that's kind of out of the literature. And then they are like, I can't have white fragility, you know, I'm whatever.

And it's like, oh, that's definitely you're getting defensive. Defensive is one of the symptoms of white fragility. You just want to deny your complicity in the system of racism that you benefit from.

And then it's just like you can't get away from it because that kind of language, like what you just said, it's like like that's like checkmate.

It's it's like it's like the kind of stuff like. So the other day. Right. Stephen King got dragged into this with the whole trans thing. Yeah.

How did he get dragged into that. What happened. So he he's long time been a supporter of J.K. Rowling and J.K. Rowling has decided that she's had enough of this, you know, trans rights thing going after the the women's issues. Mm hmm. And so at first, Stephen King stood up for and and she put out a tweet saying, you know, you're such a good friend, blah, blah, blah. And then somebody came after him and he's like, trans women are women.

And it's like, you know, he just caved, just immediately caved.

And it's like all work and no play makes Steve a dull boy, you know?

So he caves and then you get this sense that it's like something out of one of the novels he would have wrote. Right. Like, all of a sudden it's like needful things is like the whole town's going crazy because a demon possession and you have to get the stuff that all trans women are trans women.

That's that's what they are. I don't see that as being difficult.

As a matter of fact, it's difficult. And I don't think there's anything wrong with it. And I that's what I think they're equal to all of us and we're fine.

And look, what's the problem? I got dragged into that. If you know, because of mixed martial arts fighter, there's a woman, in fact. Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

And I was like, this is my hill. I will die on this. Oh, yeah. I mean, crazy, brutal. Yeah. Watching the fights were brutal and not skill wise either was just raw, stripped down. And if you had someone who was taking steroids for 30 years and then they got off steroids for two, you would absolutely think that person had a massive advantage for being on steroids all those years. That's right. If there were a woman.

That's right. Particularly in a man. Yes. As well. But particularly if you're a woman and you're on steroids for thirty years and you get off, that's what being a man is. It's not just being on steroids for thirty years and then transitioning to no steroids. It's also having the physical structure of a man, the differences in the hips, the shoulders, the size of the hands.

There's a lot going on. There is a lot going on. This is an area of my own as I have very few areas of expertise. But beating the fuck out of people is one of my areas of expertise. I'm a professional commentator. So when I see that, I mean, I used to teach martial arts for a living. I understand it. I understand fighting more than probably I understand most things. You're crazy if you think there's not a difference between female and male bodies.

I mean, the data are unequivocal about that.

Yeah, but it was one of those things where I like I was like, OK, this is one of the rare places where I really if I go down on this one like this is not this is not you. I can't see trans women just dominating in women's M.A. It's crazy. No, I hear you.

I do not mind that they choose to fight trans women if they know in advance. Sure. The Fallon Fox issue was she had fought twice as a woman without letting anyone know that she used to be a man for thirty years.

And I was like, you're crazy. You can't just do that. If someone wants to fight a trans woman and they're cool with it, like there's a woman who fought in the UFC. Your name is Ashley Evan Smith. And she wanted to actually beating found their way to the UFC, but she's just far more skillful.

Very skillful. Yeah. Yeah, that's all that was right. She's a real UFC caliber fighter. That's why she was like like if I had to choose between like Fallon Fox fought Amanda Nunez's like the greatest woman of all time men.

It is killer. Sure. Killer, absolutely. But it doesn't mean that she's a woman, you know, just because that just because Amanda Nunez I mean, it is a probably fucked me up doesn't mean that, you know, that I'm a woman. You know, if this Fallon Fox guy gets or woman rather gets beat up by Amanda Nunez, I really didn't mean to miss Jenner there. But if she gets beat up by Amanda Nunez, it doesn't invalidate her as a trans woman.

It doesn't. It just says you're not biologically a woman. Right. And this is what sports are about. It's about things like this. I had a conversation with a guy on this podcast about that. He was like, I don't think that there's that big a difference in biological sex. I said, OK, so you cool with men competing in women's sports, as men just say he didn't know where to go. I mean, that's the thing, right?

So, like, if we look at psychological profiles, for example, and sometimes there are you know, the data are always hard to pass with things like this. But there are very slight differences in the two, you know, the male distribution and the female distribution of all the people.

What does it look like? They overlap really close. And there's little variations when you look at upper body strength and you look at grip strength, there's they don't they almost don't overlap.

Like there were very the very top strongest women just barely cross over the weakest men in terms of grip strength and raw upper body strength. Yeah, that's why women, you know, it's such a big deal when a woman gets to wear like 10 pull ups or something like this, like everybody should throw a party for that. It's nothing wrong with them. It's nothing to do with their their effort or ability or anything. It's literally it's a harder climb to get there except those cross fit.

Ladies, Jesus Christ was watching this documentary on these crosthwaite ladies.

This one lady had her abs were like, if someone took turtle shells and just shoved them under her skin, they were so thick. Everything about her was so thick.

I mean I mean, you think what is cross fit. Right? Cross fit was like competitive exercise. I mean, that's the whole point of it is like how do we turn exercise itself into a sport.

Some of those gals are pretty. They are they're super strong. I'm friends with actually some some some rather top athletes and, you know, men and women both that have been pretty significant and cross fit and in other things. And you can get really strong. You can get really strong.

But again, you can't get as strong as a man. That's why there's men and women's divisions even in Crosthwaite, even those Christly cross fit women who are monsters, they can't compete with the male cross fit athlete.

Exactly. Yeah. And that's the thing is you're always when you're looking at competitive people, you're always in that, like, tail end of good at this, you know, like the people who are already really developed really good at it.

And as far as like trans women are trans women. I feel like we should be using language in a way that increases clarity rather than decreases clarity. So like you said, I mean, it's exactly like you said, there's literally nothing wrong in the world with being a trans woman. Nothing. Nothing. If you want to be the trans woman, I'm happy for you. I'll respect your pronouns, the whole thing.

You know, I'm with you as long as you don't make them up. Well, I'm not there's a degree.

I mean, there is a thing there where, you know, you're forcing somebody to to try to do something. I say she I'll see her. I'll say, yeah, I'm with you, but you can't make up new ones.

Well, the world's confusing enough as it is.

And and so we should be trying to strive for more clarity, not less.

So a trans woman is a trans woman, and that allows for us to acknowledge what's actually going on in all regards. Yeah. As opposed to saying trans women or women. Woman is a it's a broader category and it therefore confuses the situation. And I, I think that there's almost like a lot of manufactured drama, not just in that issue, but in all of this where these definitions are getting blurred out.

So I mean, that's what I do all the time now. The last years, like all I've been doing is researching how they misuse words and writing, not trans people specifically, but this whole WOAK ideology or social justice scholarship.

And I've been writing an encyclopedia on my website about that. And it's just like I've been writing my own encyclopedia. And it's it's a monumental task, but it actually is really helping. People are emailing me every day and said, you know, I can't make sense of this until until I read your stuff. Oh, wow. And so it's like I have called it translations for the from the location, like going off of a token. He's got, you know, Elvish.

Yeah. And so I call the translations from the Lokesh. It's on my my website, new discourses and it's got like a hundred and something done now a hundred something terms. So it's like you know, they say the word folks.

Why do they say folks. Why do they say folks.

I say folks all the time. Well I do too. I'm from the south particularly. They have to write. I can't get it's like the way it sounds. Well it's good but these folks are crazy.

Well they're saying that, but they say white folks, black folks, queer folks, lesbian folks. And it's like there's this identity, folks. Right. And so the purpose of the encyclopedia was to dig into this terminology and make it clear, again, more clarity, not less so the people can understand where it's coming from. So the reason they say, folks, is the same reason the Germans have folks in the 1930s. As it turns out, it's it's an idea of a group culture.

OK, so it's the idea of moving a culture into, you know, it's identifying a group of people and saying that it has that they are a folk, that they have a culture.

And of course, we're most familiar with that, you know, as they say in the original German, because somebody picked it up and yelled at a lot.

There's also this issue that if a culture has been maligned, right, if they are marginalized like trans people, then people who are not trans people are automatically thought of as in some way negative or bigoted or right.

If you're a straight white male, for instance. Right. Like you're automatically a piece of shit. That's right. That's that's what this is doing.

WOAK Olympics. And I don't think, like we said earlier, like a lot of the guys taking notes at church, they know that you put everybody below. That doesn't really get it.

They think this is just about helping people and being fair. That's what we would like. Right. And this actually comes from a place like that's kind of what this book is about, is that I've traced that for like it goes back to actually, I don't I don't want to mislead people and say, oh, this is Marxism. You know, you have to whisper Marxism.

But it is Marx who took the idea and he cooked up this idea called conflict theory. He actually took it from other German philosophers and made this. You can't even say what he changed. He changed Hegel's idea of let's call it, you can even say this anywhere, the master slave dialectic, because those master and slave have traces. The you know, even though that's what it was called, you can't talk about it. So Marx took the idea of the master slave dialectic, which was that people who have Hegel wrote that people have power and then there are people who don't have power.

The person that's being oppressed by the power understands the oppression, whereas the person who's doing the oppression can't write simple enough. Marx cooked this up into this idea called conflict theory that says, oh, different groups in society, and he mostly meant rich people versus poor people have are are completely separate from one another. And there's no idea that they help each other like that. The rich building like Amazon.com and making a super successful business that makes it easier to move products into, you know, generates more income for the site.

There's no positive some story. According to Marx, it's all conflict. And so what Marx's idea was, is that the oppressor class is always the enemy of the underclass. And this has actually traced down through history. It was economics then. And then there's this philosophical school started in in Germany, first move. Columbia University during the World War Two, it's called the Frankfurt School of Critical Theory, and they moved it into ideology and culture.

And so the dominant culture, whoever, you know, has the most status and power, the elites, which at the time was genuinely like white straight men. For the most part, those people basically brainwash the underclass into not realizing that they should rise up against. So you have this whole dynamic of conflict where the oppressor class doesn't realize what it's like to be oppressed. The oppressed class constantly can't get away from it. That's where you see this phrase.

Now, people are being killed in the street every day, which isn't even true, but it doesn't matter because it's a matter of feeling. And then the underclass always has to be at war to try to overturn the power above them, which is called hegemony, which comes from this guy, Antonio Antonio Gramsci, who is an Italian philosopher who came up with the idea of a long march through the institutions, which I think we're now seeing for sure happening, like take over the institutions from within with this stuff.

So this stuff all has like I mean, we don't have to be dorks, but I mean, I can do that on my own. But this is a very long history. This isn't like it didn't just pop up in 2014 when when Michael Brown got shot.

Do you think when things happened like the George Ford murder, that it just it opens up a door and this stuff comes through and then the vibration changes like it? It moves to a higher frequency because it's more common?

That's right. That's right. And I mean, there's a lot going on here, too, right.

So the George Ford case is actually fairly straightforward because, I mean, eight minutes and 46 seconds is fucked up. There's nothing else to say about it.

I mean, 20 seconds is fucked up. I know. Especially if you've got the guy, three guys and. Yeah. How hard is it to put cuffs on?

George Floyd was a big fella, big, strong fella. But there's no reason, not just put a knee on the man's back. Exactly.

And how long do cuffs take? Right. The guy's cuffed. You just get him in the fucking car. Yeah. Just let him do what he's going to do in the back of the car.

I guess they had some sort of animosity, personal animosity towards him, which, you know, I would wonder if that would move it to first degree murder.

I have no idea. But but what we have now is this culture where video goes viral. Right.

And this is a striking thing. So it's really more prominent in I mean, it's pretty clear you could see the video with George Floyd.

But if you back up to Michael Brown, it's more complicated than Ferguson because, you know, the short video that went viral in the first place was, you know, a few, not very many seconds clip of this black guy getting shot by unarmed black guy getting shot by a cop. But it doesn't tell the preceding story, which has now come to light, that involved, you know, him trying to take the cop's gun and like wrestling with him and charging at him.

So it is a more complicated story.

True, though. Do we know that for a fact? I'm not scared of that narrative because, you know, I don't.

But I'd heard that narrative. But I'm like, I would hate to get behind that. Sure, sure. Sure. And that's actually my point.

That's actually my point. So I was sent a video. I'm going to skip tracks to a different video because I want to make a point that we live in a we live in a mediated world now. Right. A mediated epistemology is what I would call it, the media itself, social media. So all of us participating are able to spin narratives around like a 30 second video. So the other day, this guy sends me a video on Twitter and I watch it and it's some black guy with a microphone and, you know, like in a radio studio.

And he's like going and he's like, you know, these white people and Takeno Morning and he's like yelling.

He's like, they're going to rise up, you know? And it's obvious what you're watching. You're like, man, this guy is like. These riots are out of control, and so I wanted to share it, but it was sent to me on Twitter and I couldn't figure out how. So I looked it up on YouTube. And so I had like a 40 second clip sent to me. And I'm like, yeah, about this riot. And I want to show somebody.

And so I go and I find it on YouTube and I watch it. And it's the same thing in 40 seconds and it ends. But the video that I watched it several minutes and then the next thing the guy says is this president is divisive.

This president is the problem is so divisive. He's got a whole division and it's like, holy shit, he's actually talking about Trump.

And then I kept watching and he's like, President Obama has got to go at the end. And so it depends on which part of that clip you see. The story changes completely.

I watched the 40 seconds and I was like, holy shit, this is the riots.

And then, oh, my God, it's about Trump.

And then, boom, now it's this dude railing about Obama several years ago. And the video was sent to me because it was going crazy with the implication that it was about the riots, but it was about Obama. That's crazy.

So this is like the deal, right? We you what we're seeing isn't always the whole story.

Right. And there's live in this clip culture now, which is a real problem. Right.

And we piece together the story we believe based on, you know, our prior assumptions about it, like the Covington case, exactly where the kid was just standing there in the Native American guy came up to him with the drum and he was smiling, the Native Americans face, and they got a photo of it. And it really looks like this kid's a prick and that he's taunting these Native Americans tribes peacefully banging on their drums.

That's exactly right. So we live in the situation now where the I don't want to say the media like it's a entity, because actually, in a sense, we are all participating these clips, you know, that people are loading up on Twitter. That whole context isn't there. And you said, you know, does it just jack everything up to a higher frequency?

And absolutely it does, because everybody can take that clip and then just upload their story of what they want to have to be true into that clip. And it becomes like it's like I mean, we're already talking about religion. It's like a miracle. Like, you know, back in 2000, 3000 years ago, you know, some something weird happened. And then, you know, people one person tells another and another and another. And it's like and I swear, you know, an angel came down from the sky and touched it and he was healed and he could walk again.

You know, it's so it's like a miracle story, but mediated through partially informative video, it's almost like, you know, everybody's scared that deep faith is coming where they can basically put your face on whatever porn star or saying some horrible thing that you never said or whatever.

That's just coming. Right. It's it is the precursor to that because you can cut that clip just right. And then all of a sudden it means one thing. And if you cut it just another way, it means something exactly the opposite or totally different and different groups that want to push a narrative which is like everybody latches on to it and runs with it. And this, of course, causes crazy polarization. Yeah, right. So that same clip I saw, I don't know that it would be a good example, but, you know, you could take it as the riots and, you know, get that black guy sick of the riots.

And so the right wing's all over it, like, look at this guy, you know, and then, boom, this president so divisive and now it's the left's story. And you cut it right there. And the next thing you know, it's President Obama, you know, and all of a sudden it's his switch. It switches sides again. And it's also and it's also history. Yeah. And then even the thing I watch that was longer was four and a half minutes.

And then the whole thing is like an hour.

So what really what was really the whole got the whole point.

And so we're getting away from being able to understand because, you know, our attention spans are so short. You live in Twitter. It's like you have the attention span of like a goldfish man. You can't pay attention to anything. We're marinating in dopamine all the time. Brain doesn't work. Right? So you don't have time to, like, pass anything together. You see this thing, you're pissed off, you know, snarky comment.

Don't you think that also just the format of Twitter itself is just I think it's detrimental to people's mental health, big time communicating through these small little sentences and and little paragraphs of 280 words. Let's write characters, right? Yeah. Yeah. So it's like thirty.

Yeah, yeah. And so this I actually called Twitter a deconstruction machine, which is straight out of this, again, the same critical postmodern philosophy stuff that I kind of keep circling around. Deconstruction is the idea that it's the same thing as the media mediated ideas, that we're going to take a thing apart, make it look absurd, or we're going to show show it in a particular light and then, you know, pull it apart into it. You don't really trust its validity anymore.

And that's specifically its purpose, is to make it so you don't trust the validity of the thing anymore. And so anything you put on Twitter, once you get an account of a certain size, at least anything like I have an account that's big enough now. So I experienced this regularly. It's a 100 percent chance that some jackass is going to say something that just messes with your head and or somebody's going to take it out of context or they're going to tell you what they thought you mean.

And now that's the thing. You mean are they going to screenshot it? It's going to go around and they're going to like it's like I mean, you're famous enough for it obviously happens to you all the time. I'm sure it's like they take something that you say, you know, on a podcast or you put on Twitter or your shows or whatever, and they clip it up.

And then there's like, you know, who Joe Rogan is. But then there's like this new Joe Rogan that they created that's out in the universe. Right? So they take you apart. They deconstruct you, the real Joe Rogan and your real intentions and your real meaning. And then they put it out into the world. And then there's this new Joe Rogan that does horrible thing or the new job, and maybe that's a saint.

Well, I always tell people to like if you have an issue with some of the things that I say, guess what? I have an issue with some of the things I say.

And if you were here with me when I say things and you disagreed, I'd listen to your point. I'm not an idealist or an ideologue when it comes to ideas that comes to concepts. I'm not married to anything that I say. Right.

So we need to be able to talk about it. Right.

You say a thing and then I'm like, but I think part of the problem is they can't talk about. No, they they have to tweet about it. So because they're not in the room and they don't have your attention, so then they get angry.

And that's part of the problem with podcasts as well as like right right now you and I are having a conversation, but millions of people are listening to this conversation.

There's a lot of them that wish they could chime in and they don't get to that's what they do, is they get angry and they put some stuff on Twitter. I understand the motivation. I understand the thought process behind it. I really do. But I personally can't engage because it's just too unhealthy.

Right, exactly. So, yeah, I think social media is Twitter in particular among social media. I don't I don't interact on Facebook anymore, so I don't really I don't use Facebook.

Lots of messages. I use it just posts from my Instagram to Facebook, but I don't look at it at all.

Yeah. Yeah, it's just too weird. It's weird. Zuckerberg gives me the creeps. Yeah. I mean I like the way he drinks water. I haven't even seen it. I want to know this. All I know is that when Zuckerberg sits down and he opens his laptop, he's got his little camera covered up.

And I'm like, what's up with this? You know something.

Yeah, he knows he's got a fucking strap on a dress and, you know, all kinds of weird shit.

So, yeah, I don't I don't I don't do that. But I Twitter. Twitter, choose your mind up, man.

It's made to be bad. It's it's really a bad place. And I really feel bad because I feel like I've kind of like uploaded myself into the matrix of Twitter.

You're on it every day though. I go to your page. So you're arguing with me.

Sometimes it's funny, sometimes it's bad. Are you do you get uncomfortable with it? Like, is it those things where I did in the past. So you're getting better at being hard. Yeah, I mean, you have to you have to harden up.

You have to realize that it actually doesn't matter that, you know, it's kind of like I made the analogy actually a while back that it's like, do I mean, I've never done a stage show, so don't I've given talks, but I haven't done like a stage show.

But you get a heckler in the audience, but really you have like 70000 of them.

And when you're doing the show, you know, as a comedian, you either interact with the heckler a little bit or you try to flip it on them or whatever, or you, you know, try to ignore it as long as it's like not too obtrusive. And you kind of have to have that same mindset. You have to think of Twitter as being on stage. Right. And that the audience, though, like when you do a real show, the audience isn't supposed to yell at you all the time.

But on Twitter, everything you say, they're going to yell at you. So you have to just like tune it out. I've actually found in the past I've been trying to figure it out over the last couple of years.

I found that if I look at my feed that I've you know, I follow these people and I look at what they tweet, whatever. And if I look at my direct messages that people send me whatever. But if I look at people replying to me and whether I got likes or read tweets, if I pay any attention to that, it drives me nuts. So when I stop paying attention to that, like, I only look at it at like, you know, all right, I got half an hour.

I'm going to stick around with it and just have a good time or whatever.

Fine, because it's in a controlled dose. But if you get hooked into that man, you get pulled into the cycle and it's like it's bad.

Well, there's a lot of people that are doing it, too. Like I know people that are mentally unwell that are on Twitter 12 hours a day and they're just constantly arguing with people. And I could just imagine them nervous and sweating and freaking out, reading the replies and seeing if it's going their way or people are piling onto them and then they freak out.

You know, I think this is actually a big part of how the WOAK thing mainstreamed was the Internet at first. You got to think when the Internet first came out, you know, the kids aren't old enough to even know this. But, you know, we know this. When the Internet first came out, who was on the Internet all the time? Who were the first two online people?

Shut ins. Yeah, people who were socially awkward, who if they went out with their friends, it didn't really work out great.

A lot of times they said awkward stuff. It got shut down. It wasn't fun for them. So it gave them a social outlet where where, you know, they could fit in. And I think that this actually has contributed like Internet social media culture is so strongly built by people. Who are that way now and be by people who are that way when these things were getting set up, that it's all kind of built around, you know, maybe people with personality disorders, people are just socially awkward, people who don't want to interact with human beings.

And the normal way, just the whole structure of it, though, even if you're normally like a personable human, when you're typing things out and just sending it out there and, you know, you've got an egg for an avatar and someone reads it, you're completely anonymous. And it's just a bizarre way to interact. It's so weird.

It's so it's unnatural and like how quick you'll just get rid of people like that guy said that guy and I I've been interacting for like two years, you know, here and there.

I don't really know him. He's some dude. And then he made one comment. I'm like, gone, you know, that's it to cut out of my life.

Think of like that's going to translate.

You know, you get in the habit or somebody pisses you off and you cut them out of your life because on Twitter, that's what you would do. Yeah. You Facebook, you like unfriend somebody or whatever.

Yeah.

And like, I actually have felt that impulse in real life, like, you know, I'm hanging out with somebody and he says, I'm Dick had a comment and I'm like, yeah, where's my block button?

How do I remove this person from my life?

Like right now there's no room for nuance and there's no room for zero, like you said earlier, for growth, for someone to to learn, live and learn and get better at it.

And that's what galls me about this WOAK stuff, because they're like this is about healing and it's like it's not it's like it's like the least healing thing I've ever heard. It's like make everybody walk on eggshells, think they're going to get canceled, get, you know, hot takes dropped on.

That's another thing with social media to raise hot takes. What's going to go viral is like that dude totally dunking on that other dude.

Right. Right. And it's not the nuanced analysis. It's not the guy who knows what he's talking about or is thoughtful. He's just getting tore up in his mentions and freaking out and sweating about it.

Yeah, it's it's fast food information, but hot takes our critical theory. Hmm. Hot takes a critical theory. As a comic, you'll get it because like there's that there are different kinds of comedy, right? There's like narrative comedy and you're telling a story and it's a funny story and it works. But then you have the kind of and you can do it's good and bad. Right. There's a good way in a bad way. But you get on stage, you can be that guy who just kind of like you trying to blow people's mind.

But you just kind of like criticizing something. I don't want to put down Jerry Seinfeld because I think he's brilliant. He's on my favorites of all time. But, you know, what's the deal with, you know something?

He just says something kind of stupid afterwards or, you know, Gallagher was big with that, with, like, the stupid words. You know, it's like how now, Bo, you know, English is stupid. You know, that that's actually critical theory. You don't actually have to know what. Made the thing work, but you can just tell this kind of like dunking joke on it that kind of gets Yuk's or whatever, and then in comedy, fine, you know, we know a good comic from a bad comic.

We laugh. That's the point is to make something funny and everybody bombs. But when you start doing that with, like people's lives and social philosophy and calling them, calling them things like racist and sexist that can can ruin their lives. And it's a totally different ballgame. Right. So it's like looking for that place to just be critical because it becomes a problem.

Do you think it's also just because it can be done, like if you gave people a keyboard and if you told them, look, every time you press that button, a rocket is going to fly out of the sky and slam into a part of the planet?

Yeah, yeah. People would hit that button. Oh, man.

There would be people like if you just knew and they don't even have to be there when it hits because you're essentially like if you say something mean to someone online and it really gets them, and especially if you're anonymous, you're sending an emotional bomb their way.

Exactly.

And I mean, I know a lot of 15 year old guys because I hung out with several of them at times.

I probably was one who would basically have like two little like like xylophone hemorrhages, like. Oh, yeah.

The whole time. Oh my gosh. Like, they go horrible when I was 15. Yeah. I don't know what I would do. And that's one of the things that I try to tell people when they're interacting with folks on Twitter and getting heated. I'm like, that could be a 15 year old kid laughing his ass off that he got you to respond to him.

Yeah. And the bigger you are, the funnier it is. Yes. Yeah. And like, yeah, it's it's just absolutely not a good place. It's such not a good place, but there's some good to it.

Right. There's of course, first of all, if you follow a lot of people, you can get a lot of interesting information, fast breaking news. I swear it knows the news before it happens. Well, I got all my news about Chaz.

Is it Chaz or is it chop now? Well, it's over now is what it is. I just saw that this morning.

Yeah. Apparently the cops went in and it took an hour and it was over and they cleaned it up. Well, they're cleaning it up.

I mean, it's it was a wreck, but it was Chaz and it became Chope.

So Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone is Chaz and then Chope.

They I think they derive directly from the French Revolution like they're going to get guillotines like these badasses are going to get guillotines.

Well, they put a builtin outside of Jeff Bezos, as I saw that. What did he do? I don't know, other than make a lot of money, probably. Yes, that it is. But it took. Yeah, I mean, he's not a bad guy, is he? I don't know. I mean, he's not known as a bad guy. It's not like he's not doing terrible things. I don't think he is he's not paying people enough or something that covid he gave everybody a two dollar an hour raise, like across the board, like right away.

Did he. Yeah. Well, why are they why do they have a guillotine outside his house just because he represents capitalism?

Yeah, probably, yeah. They don't like capitalism. Yeah. Which sucks. Again, that's a critical thing. Like yeah there's, there's OK. So there's a difference between building a thing and tearing anything down. It's easy to tear.

I wrote a poem about this maybe like a lot of people did.

I think when we were in school, I don't know, maybe even you read it, I can't quote it. There's this poem talking about there's the builder or something and it's like or maybe it's the demo guy, but it's like this poem about how easy it is to just knock the bricks down and knock the building down. And it's like this took builders like six months to build and it took me a day to knock it down or whatever.

It's easy to tear things down and it's easy to do like this kind of hot take complaining thing to tear people down or tear ideas down. But it's hard to understand a thing and it's hard to build a thing. Yeah, right. And so that's kind of how we ended up here in the long run. Again, I go back to that Frankfurt school to kind of root this in deep philosophy and history. They came up with this idea, critical theory that we've talked about now and then this other idea, traditional theory, and they just use them together.

Critical theory was how you complain that things aren't Marxist enough, more or less. And then people blame me for saying that. But it is actually general generally true.

Traditional theory was understanding things, its philosophy, its science, it's figuring out how to, you know, make airplanes work and figure out how to get the air traffic control so they don't crash into each other. The whole complicated mess.

And one of these, you're supposed to use them together. But one of these things is a lot easier, right? So what happens when you start kind of getting a lot of half assed PhDs in the academic world who need something to do? You think they're going to do the hard thing versus the easy thing? And everybody who did I mean, I majored in math. I'm going to be my little elitist, you know, dorky thing here. Everybody who majored in something hard watched people bounce off of their hard major into the easier majors in life so they could still just get a degree.

So you start like they call this overproduction, a cultural overproduction or cultural elite overproduction. You start putting too many people into degree programs that that they're not you know, they're not going to graduate with an engineering degree.

It's working hard. And so what they end up doing is they get these degrees and things that are easy. Well, complaining is easy. Tearing down is easy, building up, it's hard.

So there's this bias that's happened over the last hundred years in academia towar d this easier thing, criticism and away from the harder thing, which is understanding and developing, you know, fundamental research and so on. And it's basically taken over academia now. And that's how I think that's actually a lot of how we got here. Is it the easy thing is the easy thing and complaining is cheap.

Is there pushback against that idea? Which part about whether or not these people initially started in difficult studies and then move their way into like these? So, yeah.

So it's off social. It's sort of really I mean. Well, that just happens. I mean, my my best friend in college was, you know, he was going to be a mechanical engineer and then calculus just took care of that. He was not going to be a mechanical engineer anymore because he couldn't pass calculus. So I mean, but he did graduate college with another degree. So there is this kind of chopping down to easier degrees. Right.

But as far as like this anti intellectual ism trend that I was describing, this actually did it. It was recognized along the way.

So this is one of the guys in the Frankfurt school. His name was Herbert Markkula. This is the guy who laid out the idea of repressive tolerance that you have to violently fight against ideas that might cause intolerance to rise up. He did that in 1965, what happened in 1967 and 1968, you know, riots following his ideas. Exactly. And so Marquesa was on TV in like 77 right before he died. He died, I think, in the early 80s or late 70s.

And he complained about his own movement that he started that had got completely anti intellectual. They weren't doing the hard work. They weren't doing the right stuff. They were just doing the easy stuff. And he actually complained on TV that this had happened, that there had been a sliding away from the serious work and toward the easier complaining stuff. And so, yeah, I think that it's it's historically justifiable that that's exactly what happened.

Of course, you know, I was here before and we talked about those fake papers that Peter and Helots tell everybody, but those are just because it's an amazing source of enjoyment and entertainment for folks that are looking for something to read. Right.

So so we don't lose the point real quick. We did in less than like 10 months, the almost equivalent of a whole academic career in this stuff. And we're amateurs.

So as a joke, as a joke, passed off as real and then actually applauded. That's right. So we wrote 20 fake academic papers in these exact fields, critical race theory.

So we should tell Peter Josiane did it with you and tell him his pluck.

Rose Pluckers pluck Rose. Yeah, most English, the second most English name. She wrote cynical theories with you.

Yeah. So, yeah, that's a very English name. It is a very English name. So we we wrote these papers to try to show that this scholarship is bogus. Right.

And so we spent just under a year writing crazy stuff. Please tell people that dog park won love.

So if a dog park dog park paper was actually, I think, kind of the masterpiece of the thing. So we we wrote this paper where we claim that we were a feminist researcher who spent a thousand hours in Portland, Oregon, dog parks over the course of one year, never in the heavy rain. We put that in the paper, never in the heavy rain like that, some relevant detail or something.

So a thousand hours over a year is already ridiculous.

That's like six hours a day every day. So it's time. I know.

And what what we said she did was she she watched dog humping incidents and tried to determine when they counted as dog rapes and when they didn't.

And what the name of the paper, though. Oh, it was was it queer, performative, itte and.

Well, how's it go? Because they had all the buzzwords, right? Yeah. Hetero normative was in there. Yeah, that's right. That's right.

I'm queer, performative and urban dog parks. And in Portland, Oregon, rape culture and queer performative culture. Yeah.

So so we had the we said that she she watched these dogfights and dog rapes and all this stuff and we put this crazy stuff in there. Like sometimes they try to break up a dog fight by doing jumping jacks by the dog or singing songs and just ridiculous. And the dogs are pooping on each other. We put that in the paper and then we said when there was a dog humping that she would go up and she would inspect the dog's genitals and she inspected ten thousand dog's genitals and then interrogated the owners about their sexual orientations.

What she wanted to find out was if straight men would discourage gay dog humping versus straight dog humping. And that was different for women and gay men. And then the we said we're going to pass that data through black feminist criminology, which makes no sense.

And then that we said that the conclusion was that dog parks are petri dishes of canine rape culture and that they are rape condoning spaces just like Human Nightclub's. So human nightclub's are automatically now rape condoning spaces. And so the conclusion was that we now have to train men the way that we train dogs with like leashes and shock collars and things in order to in order to get rape culture to go away.

And they give this an award.

And so it's like this. The bullshit level is just insane, is the award, so they had a thing, it was their anniversary. The Journal is the number one feminist geography journal in the world. And there was a 25th anniversary. It's the name of the journal Gender, Place and Culture. And it's the leading feminist geography journal in the world, and they had their twenty fifth years there in their 25th anniversary. And so what they wanted to do was highlight one paper per issue the entire year as being exemplary scholarship and feminist geography.

And ours was chosen.

I can tell you, man, it was the craziest thing ever. I remember. I'm almost positive it was May 7th of twenty eighteen. I got the email and it's like I can remember is just like go in the house.

I was out doing yard work or something and I come in and I check my email and I just remember like.

Gaping at the screen, I'm like, this can't be this can't be happening because I thought I just saw the Ed and I'm like, Oh no, they figured it out right. And we're going to give it an award. And so I end up I grab because because we're making a documentary about it.

Right. So we got a filmmaker, Mike Pnina. He's the one to do that three part documentary of Evergreen that showed everybody how I mean, that's where everybody's evergreen now. And so Mike is like anything that happens, film it. So I grab my GoPro and I have this footage. It's like Sideways because I didn't even, like, think about it. And I'm just like running outside trying to find my wife. I'm like, you are going to believe this.

You aren't gonna believe this. Oh, my gosh.

You know, is it really freakin crazy?

You know, like it's almost like it's almost like the world slid off of its foundation a little bit when they give that paper an award. For me, it was just so weird.

Well, you nailed it. We really nailed it. You came so close to reality, but yet still lived in the world of parody. That's right. But you said all the things that you need is it just shows that there's such a high tolerance for bullshit. That's right. In those air quotes disciplines.

Right. And those air quotes disciplines are now being like mainlined into like every university, every school, every corporate boardroom. How did that happen?

I mean, we were talking about, you know, the raising the frequency thing when these events happen. But mostly it's that they took over our colleges of education about 1980. And so they've been slowly turning teachers to the project. And then in 2000, two and three, there are a couple of Supreme Court cases that that were talking about affirmative action. And they said, if you want to do affirmative action, you can do it if it increases diversity and equity and inclusion.

So they started to build these offices in the university and those university offices started to like dictate what you could and couldn't say. You could get in trouble or brought up to hearings. Even if you don't even if the hearing finds you innocent, you start to waste your time going through that humiliating hearing. And they're bringing up stuff and all your you know, how do you imagine you're like in a department, right. And you get hauled before the diversity office.

What are all your colleagues thinking about?

You know, like what did he do? Right. Right.

So all of a sudden it starts just pushing everybody to not criticize this stuff.

Right. Self-censorship, exactly.

The fear, silencing people, getting them to silence themselves, actually. And so then they take that that lack of criticism and then they can just go crazy with their stuff. It's like critical race theory specifically.

People email me all the time and say, where are the scholarly criticisms of critical race theory?

And I actually write back like you're not allowed to do that, like the most recent ones. And law journals like substantive ones are from the 1990s. So there's nobody criticizing this stuff. Oh, wow. So when you aren't criticizing it, I mean, scholarship depends on people shooting down your bad ideas here. You know, in South Park talks about them smelling their own farts or whatever, smelling each other's farts. It literally it's like it's that that's what's happening.

Yeah. Nobody's ever telling them that they're wrong. Nobody's ever allowed. And you can't criticize it.

Why? Because if you criticize critical research, you must be racist.

Now, what was the response to you guys getting an award for that once you revealed that this was all horseshit?

Oh, she wasn't happy. The editor of that journal was not happy. She felt like betrayed, like, you know, she was.

She was. She was. But she felt, you know, like I had been so nice. I was so kind to her and she was very kind to me. I have to be she was she was a very nice person. Most of these people that's a very important. But these aren't mostly nice people. There are some hustlers and they take advantage of that situation. Yeah, because that's what this is really wide open to.

So she was a nice person, but she's living in that world and she thought that all that stuff made sense. Yeah. Yeah, she I mean, that's the thing is I think that stuff's all real. Like, yeah. It's like they've kind of gone into this mass delusion where where everything's power dynamics and the power dynamics define how everybody experiences life.

And do you remember when Jordan Peterson was on television, on the CBC and he was talking to some professor, I think may or may not have been transgender, who was saying that there's no such thing as biological sex? And I can unpack for you if you'd like, and then keeps going as if it's just like you made a statement that there's no such thing as biological sex. Right?

Yeah, that's I mean, that's a pedigree in the academic literature going back to actually at least the early 1990s.

I had an argument with a professor about it on the show is like it's not there's no I guess there's no difference between males and females. I guess if you buy a male puppy and they give you a female, do you complain what happened?

That it was a he he didn't know what to say.

He was just he you could tell when he was saying the things he was saying that he was knowing that he was going to get support from the people that he works with.

Exactly. It's just this thing that you do where you've indoctrinated yourself into this world or you've been indoctrinated and now you have to sort of keep up that nonsense.

Do you hit it exactly then earlier? Because I don't know if you've ever, like, let the Jehovah's Witness in and talk to him, but if you get them, do what they have to go off script. Sometimes would be like two of them, like look at each other and they kind of mumble for a minute and then we'll have to go back and consult about that and we'll come back and talk.

It's like if they don't if they're not on the script, they don't know what to do. So you catch them in this thing.

And that's actually the thing is it's crazy. The stuff is taken over right now. Mostly it's not because they're just calling people racist and everybody's good intentions are being played upon.

But if you give it the slightest pushback, they don't know what to do except to tell you, because in their world you can say there's no such thing as biological sex, right? Yeah. I have a friend who works at a very large newspaper and.

They said they can't say that there are two genders, like if you say there are two genders, you will literally get thrown out of the office and they're like, we're not exaggerating.

I mean, yeah, I just I have a friend that works in journalism who is gay and has a gay sensitivity reader to make sure that.

His writing is sensitive enough, he's gay, he's gay, and he has a gay sensitivity reader to make sure his writing is gay enough.

Can I just check with himself? You would think so. Yeah, I would imagine. You would think so. Douglas Murray put it put something up on his Twitter because someone is describing a gay person as a cis gendered, non hetero normative, like something really crazy. And he said, I think there's another word for that.

Right. It's okay. Is a gay person. Yeah, that's right. It was like this like super complicated nonsense expression.

Right.

And it meant gay, a gay person that we're like, again, there's a good comedy and bad comedy is where George Carlin had that awesome classic bit, where he talked about adding syllables and hyphens, you know, is like World War One.

It was shellshock and now it's post-traumatic stress disorder. Eight syllables, one hyphen count. Yeah.

So it's like there's this weird language thing happening there with all these like like he called it desensitising or sterilizing language and that's what's happening. So it takes all that meaning away. So nobody knows what it means except for the guy preaching it. So the guy doing the diversity training. I watch the diversity training somebody sent me from their job the other day and this woman's like just droning on. It felt like you're just getting, you know, Imagineer to the job.

You're like, you have to do this for work. You don't want to do it. And you're just watching this webinar and this lady just ramrodding, like, 12 syllable words that she's like, OK, so we have to talk about micro aggressions. And there are different kinds of micro aggressions or micro assaults or micro.

And it's just like, what the hell is this? Microsoft micro insults. And then Mike gets a Microsoft a micro assault is when you don't you do it on purpose, like.

But what is a micro assault?

So a micro assault would be, you know, making a small but, you know, racially salient comment and the presence of a person of that race.

Oh, so it's not even not necessarily racist. No, it's not an assault. No, these people violence is all words and discursive.

So a micro assault can just be an insult.

And they're all insults micro. Everything has to just be like words or standing in the wrong place. Oh, boy.

Jamie just pulled it up here. A Microsoft is an explicit racial.

Derogations characterize what is that? Look at that expression, a micro assault is an explicit racial derogations.

So you've put somebody down on purpose. I know, but that's a weird way of describing an explicit racial derogations, plural.

Oh, yeah. And who is singular? Yeah, that's right. Yeah.

And Ed derogations plural, characterized primarily by verbal or nonverbal attacks meant to hurt the intended victim through name calling. There's your hyphen. Avoidant behavior or purposeful discriminatory actions.

The camera on that's broken all the pieces. It's a mess.

And that's Kizu Eddo Rezende Kazoo Eddo. Nice.

I mean I think it didn't even bother like editing that motherfucker that there's so many of these things that are like for education that are like this and it's like they say stuff like themself and it's just like this is supposed to be for education, it's barely literate.

What is going on? Well that's a problem when using Vaine in them as well. Right. Using they in them pronouns which are really supposed to I mean, for the most part indicate multiple people. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Let's say they you know, so this guy well you could say they thought or they thought they would get away with it.

I mean you could say it, you could say. Right. But it's hard to use it that way all the time. Right.

It's hard to use it intentionally. Yeah. It's it comes up naturally sometimes and then it's fine. But it's hard to use intentionally.

Yeah. If a person wanted to go to the store, they could go. Right. And so there's something like kind of totalitarian about making people do things like that that are difficult, like jumping through these little hoops and holding them to massive account. Yes. And it's like I mean, even like the Black Lives Matter thing, like Black Lives Matter as a sentence is obvious, forcing somebody to say an obvious thing.

That's a great name because you can't argue with it. You also can't argue. Yeah, because what does it matter? And of course, it's I mean, it's so complicated because it's like if somebody asked me, they said, OK, do you support Black Lives Matter, James?

Do you support Black Lives Matter? And of course, they're going try to catch me on this. And it's like, which one is at least five? I support one of them and I think the other four nuts. Right, so there's Black Lives Matter, all lowercase letters as a sentence. You can't disagree with it because it's obvious that black lives actually matter and you shouldn't be forced to say obvious things.

But what that what is that? That's a that's a call, right? They're saying, hey, look, white people, people of other races, we have a different experience of the society and it's bad. Yeah. And we need you to hear us and we want you to care. And we want there to be action taken that we can work on together to figure out and who couldn't support that movement.

I think everybody in the world supports that. Right.

But then you have the official one and their websites full of like literally neo Marxist stuff and they're like weird like queer feminist something or another. Like, seriously, it's all on their about page on the Black Lives on her website. And it's like there's a lot of baggage, man.

I don't know if I'm for that. And then you have like the training video comes out with one saying you we're trained Marxists and they are they're trained activists. You don't actually have to go along with all of that to agree with the sentence. Right. Then you have this thing with with white people. There's like a Black Lives Matter movement. That's white people that are like Washington, black people's feet and like calling them and apologizing, like freaking them out.

And I mean, this is actually horrible, too, but it's amazing.

Could you imagine what it's like being like somebody calls you like all your all your white friends start calling you and they're like, by the way, I've always kind of been racist, like you had a relationship with that person and now it's so awkward.

My favorite one was the white actors that all got together in that black and white film.

No kidding. That was. Oh, my gosh. Stupid. Oh, it was ones there that I really enjoyed every I know where the problem is.

These motherfuckers haven't worked in months and they want attention. That's right. They wanted attention and they weren't getting it.

So I can I know I know how to really choose this up in my favor. Me, me, me, me, me. It's so dumb. It's so dumb.

Aaron, Paul. He broke my heart. Oh, I saw him in there.

Yeah, I the Breaking Bad guy. He's a man. I love that dude. And then I was like, bro, I wish I would to talk to you before that. I know I can tell you how this goes.

I can tell you what happens next is a good man because guys like me, I get to watch it.

That's right. We tell you we're going to make fun of it a lot. A lot. That's right.

The fuck out. It was so funny. So then there's two more. We'll drop them, whatever these.

So like what? But I wanted to get back to this.

You don't mind when that piece came out and you got the award and then they found out. Yeah. Like what was that. You said she was pissed off.

I mean, it was just I got this email from her that was like short, but it was like I am really hurt that you were deceptive to me.

You know, it's kind of like that. And I felt bad, actually. Like I don't I'm not I didn't do it to, like, be mean to people. Right. You did it to prove a point. Like, I actually, you know, the saying, you know, you play the ball, don't play the man, right?

Yes. So I guess I said it backwards. If it's a saying is don't play them, I play the ball.

This was about ideas for me. Like that project was about the ideas. It was about the scholarship. It wasn't about the people.

And I felt like it was really unfortunate that there were people implicated in it. I actually did feel bad for them. In almost every case. There are a couple of them that actually right. Pissed me off with some of the stuff they wrote to me. But so I didn't feel bad about them so much. But that's a human failing. I you know, I'm not a perfect person.

When they pissed you off because they would they write, oh, this one woman we wrote a paper about masculinity and Hooters and we said that the only reason guys go there is I mean, besides the obvious, wanting to ogle chicks.

But the main reason was that they could order like double meaning on the word order. Right. Order their food.

They can order pretty young women around that have to do what they say.

And, you know, they can patriarchal order, taking their orders, what is a pun? And this one woman wrote like this long review of it and she was like, this paper. It was remember, it was submitted to a journal called Men in Masculinities. It was a paper that was supposed to study the masculinity. And she wrote back, this paper talks about men instead of women and it victim blaming and blah, blah, blah, blah, and like, oh, you can go to hell, you know, basically, like, come on.

I was aggravated also because my paper didn't get in because of that was like it's like why would a paper about men and masculinity have to be about the women?

Oh, because feminism. That's why of course. And it's like that's so annoying that it's so that that aggravated me. Most of the rest of them were actually like really nice people.

So I think your feeling is that there there's really nice people that get bamboozled into really bad ideas.

And then when you snuck in these hoax papers that you're essentially speaking their lingo and they don't even know that they have a link.

That's right. And so I actually think that what we're looking at with this WOAK movement and, you know, we've kind of compared it to cult, we've kind of compared to I actually think it's evil. And the reason is because exactly what you just said, it plays on people's best nature. It takes good people and twists them. Its purpose, hmm, and that's horrible, like the whole game is to try to make you a nicer, more caring person so it takes your care and turns it into something literally totalitarian.

You're not allowed to disagree with it. Anything you say, you get branded with these horrible, you know, stigmas. They try to cancel people. And it's like it's literally trying to use people's best, fairest, most just and caring instincts to make them program into this way of thinking.

There's also this thing that's going on, particularly with people in their cars when they have marches that they just decide to start smashing people's cars and doing things to people's cars, whether it's because the people don't agree with what they're saying or they choose someone or they don't like the look of that person, but they feel justified in violently attacking them in their car. Right. Because they are there to do a good thing.

That's right. Yeah. Whenever somebody is going to punish people and think it's the moral thing to do, that's where you've got some danger going on. Yeah. And the reason they do that, by the way, is because they think everything happening is violence. Like why does antifa by the way, it's the fourth Black Lives Matter movement. Is these antifa agitators starting the riots?

Why do they feel justified in throwing a brick through a Starbucks? Why do they feel justified in starting yelling about targets? Why does this keep happening?

And the reason this is going to sound absolutely insane, but it's actually true is that they believe that something like Starbucks is a big corporation and when it comes into a neighborhood, it starts taking resources, capitalist resources, money from that neighborhood and then dumping it into corporation.

And they see it as a form of violence against the neighborhood.

So they're justified in using violence to disrupt that by throwing a brick through the window, even though it's probably some franchise owners just trying to make a buck, trying to have a job that runs it.

That's crazy. Yeah, I mean, it is that that's actually what the theoretical justification is with with regard to to that aspect of the theater.

These people were actually doing this, know this, that that's why they're doing it. Or I mean, is this written anywhere? Oh yeah.

The Antifa books are crazy. They talk about collection of capital, the, you know, any kind of racist or sexist or whatever language as they want to determine it being a form of violence. They call these things like epistemic violence and some of the literature. They call it discursive violence. And some of the literature sometimes they just call it violence and queer theory. You know, calling somebody saying you're a man or a woman is called a violence of categorization.

So there's all these different types of violence and they're sort of marinating in this idea that these things that are happening the way people talk, micro assault is of violence.

And I mean, I even saw a thing somebody sent me today from some university, Indiana, maybe, where the person saying that, you know, we're tearing down these physical monuments, but maybe we need to think about discursive so verbal monuments.

And then in the middle of this, which is otherwise cracked was, you know, not violent. He actually says something to the effect of that. We really need to be prepared to do violence against this violence.

And so they're marinating in these kinds of thoughts, so you get these like like with Antifa, what are these dudes? These dudes are like hopped up, mostly young men trying to put out. I mean, there's some women in there, too, of course, but there's a lot of young men who are like doing they're young male rage and they're pissed off at society. And they've read all these books saying how America sucks and how it hurts. You know, all these poor people, it hurts, you know, minorities and so on.

A lot of people are feeling the sting, frankly, because the whatever the Republican policies since Reagan have really kind of like put some squeeze on people.

Well, it's really amplified now because of covid, because they locked. Oh, yeah, exactly.

And people are out of their minds and living on Twitter and they're living on Twitter and also they're broke and exactly. You know, you feel justified to loot.

They feel justified and rob and they don't even have to really intellectualize it are really when the rationalizing this, they don't have to really make cogent points. They just have to have like some iconic enemy in their head. Right.

We really should. Your target getting set on fire when Target got deemed essential and the people started making a big deal about Target's essential, why is Target essential?

Because you need to buy toilet paper. You fuck. Jesus Christ.

What's weird is, I mean, it's just weird how quickly it happened and it clearly exacerbated by the lockdown. That's right. It's one of the most amazing, like combination of events that happens in a perfect storm order. Right.

And so it's OK. I'm not. Let me start. Right. And this is already bad, but I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I don't actually buy into conspiracies. But we are in a situation because of a lot of political currents for the last 50 years, where there's a lot of billionaire philanthropist groups. Right. That generate a lot of money. They run a lot of think tanks. They run a lot of like policy forums and organizations and everyone's threes and so on and so forth to study things and do these things.

The rapidity with which the materials like the the like Instagram already tracks that you could read and the little videos, the speed and the educational curricula and the guides for. Here's a bunch of resources for for how to remake your business.

This stuff came out fast. So what I think is actually going on is a political operative types wait for I mean, saying never let a good crisis go to waste. Right?

So they wait for a precipitating event and then they've been making easy digest materials for a long time and paying people like, you know, hey, come work for our forum. What we really need to do is look at how we can get books for, like antiracist toddler books, you know, antiracist kids. And so they get people writing these books and I think they're doing it. It's not like some, you know, boardroom nasty stuff. And then these materials are just ready to go out fast.

And so this we had, as you said, a perfect storm, covid pissing like cowards, pissing everybody off. The media has everybody pissed off. Trump has everybody pissed off. It's like impossible to watch any of this. And I'll be just pissed off. I have to be careful because I actually start to get frustrated and emotional about it.

I the amount of being lied to, it's just so obvious, you know, to a lot of the news right now at these protests, especially in riots, is just galling.

Well, the article that I showed you that shows that the covid kick up the uptake in cases had nothing to do with Black Lives Matter, but probably had to do with people staying inside.

Yeah, it's it's like gaslighting, man. But that's the craziest gaslighting ever. Like. So why are you making everybody stay inside then? Because that means the disease is going to get even worse. Right.

Like if we're being forced to lock in and shut down and shut and stay home, that's going to make the disease worse, according to your article.

Which way does it go? And nobody knows. And then you live in this like I don't know what what's true about covid at all now? It's like you were allowed to go out in groups less than ten, but not if you were protesting, then they could be up to a thousand or so.

I mean, it's going to be multiple thousands. Like what in the world is going on once you're protesting? And if long is it's a good cause everybody could die.

Yeah, exactly. It's fine. It's because racism is the real virus is what they actually said.

Well, that's a real virus, too. But that covid shit's real. Trust me. It's it's I know I know multiple people that have it right now.

I also know people who have had it and a couple who do. It's not good. Not good. Not good. Yeah. Like yeah. Even young people. Yeah. Like they're still going to those like friends are still going to the hospital because they don't quite know what's wrong with them after having had vitamin D kids take a shitload of it.

Very important. Get out in the sun. Let's took like fifty thousand I knew before I flew out here. Yes. Good move. Yeah. No I take 5000 IU every day. So without fail. Yeah. And I take zinc and I take magnesium and I take 4000 milligrams of vitamin C and I take a I do a ten thousand milligram vitamin C IV every week. Yeah.

I'm not fucking around sitting around and I still get nervous. Well you don't get the coffee. I'm scared. Devon's serious.

It's serious and people are scared. And, you know, you can channel that fear, you can channel that anger, I know, and I'm healthy, right? Imagine if I was obese or had diabetes or. Oh, you can't live with that. Yeah. So fat shaming. Yeah. Yeah. Fat shaming.

Yeah.

Obesity is not allowed to be talked about as a medical relevant condition that is called medicalizing obesity.

I love Jon Stewart to death. He's amazing. But we did a podcast the other day and he actually said you can be overweight and be healthy. And I had to stop him. I said, no, you can't.

That's not true. You that's literally it shows that you have an issue that's like that's a sign of non health.

Yeah. Of not being healthy. It's a tax on your body for sure. Your body works harder. But he's just so nice that he wanted to say it because it's a thing that people like to say. And he wanted he wanted those people to like him.

Well, just come after him. It's exactly what we were saying. It's using that that impulse to be kind, that impulse to be nice and funny and into something and that narrative that that there's nothing to do with health.

Like they actually it's trademarked and everything. Health at every size is a movement. Actually, there was a blog I used to follow. That's where I first learned about it. There it was called Dances With Fat. And as this woman is very overweight who danced around and she's a good dancer, actually, she really was. And then she tried to run a marathon and she couldn't run the marathon because she well, she finished the marathon, but there was a time limit and she finished after the time limit.

So it didn't count.

So she lost her marbles about it and said, you know, the time limits are oppressive and fat, exclusionary and all this like nine hours or something. And then so she then created another blog called Iron Fat where she was going to run. She was going to an Ironman, but fat while fat to prove that has nothing to do with health.

Well, the swimming part, she got down because she she could take your time because she's floating. Oh, that's harsh. That's true. Fat people float actually in cold water.

They lose a lot of weight, too. I don't know if you know that people who swim the English Channel actually have to gain weight so they can swim off other cold water.

You actually do almost twenty pounds.

Oh, makes sense. Yeah. Because it's massive caloric requirement to keep your body warm in the freezing water.

Is it was that Phelps, the Olympic swimmer. Oh yeah. That's where he was eating like 15000 calories a day and staying cut, ripped giant pizzas and shit.

Yes, but he's swimming in sixty eight degree water. Seventy two degree water for four hours a day or something.

Makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. That they have this whole thing that dancing. That is a well yeah.

That iron fat lady, they had this whole thing that you can't associate obesity and health at all. You it's not allowed, it's considered, it's considered a medicalising narrative. And if we were to come up with let's say that like you invented tomorrow, Joe Rogan's, you know, you get a supplement company and Joe Rogan's weight loss pill, but not like some bullshit. Imagine it really worked, right?

So everybody who takes his pill within the course of a month would get to their their ideal body weight right by pill magic. Just imagine they would actually in fat studies, which is a real critical fat studies. It's a real thing. We wrote we wrote a paper about that, too.

They would call that a fat genocide because you're getting rid of all the fat people, but you're not.

But every one of you get rid of them. They are they are healthier, but they can always choose to be fat again. So that's the problem with this shit. It plays on people's best instincts while giving the worst possible reading of everything. Right. Like they literally would.

And it takes away personal accountability as well. Right.

They actually say that in disability studies about people who are deaf, if they invented surgery or whatever, that fixed deafness or an implant that could fix deafness for everybody. They say it's a deaf genocide because there'd be no deaf people left.

They really say that. Yeah. Oh, my God, that's so silly. And so, I mean, you can see it's just like it's so silly.

Restoring a sense is a genocide on people who are handicapped.

As somebody who's lost senses, I can tell you you want them back or you want them to have them. If you don't.

You were saying when you had your head injury that you couldn't taste anything. Yeah.

So I hit my head really bad in January 2011 and cracked my skull and I had to do it.

Pull ups pull up bar came apart. Oh my God. I was doing those bad ass ones.

We pull up and then touch your feet. Oh, so I was horizontal, seven feet off the ground in the pull up bar came apart and oh my back of the head on concrete. Oh my God dude. Oh was bad man. It was bad.

Like my ears were ringing for like a month. Oh I'll tell you this because you fight so you'll understand.

I hit my head the back of my head so hard that I deviated septum. Oh my God, nothing hit my nose. But my my nostrils aren't the same as they were before. Oh God. So I woke up the next morning. I mean, I didn't go to sleep for a long time because I was like, I'm OK. I've got a concussion, I'm fucked. And so then I get up eventually the next morning after I decide I can sleep because my pupils aren't doing any of the things and.

I drink my coffee, I'm like, man, my coffee tastes really weird, I'm really knocked silly. And then I realized sometime during the day I couldn't smell anything and I couldn't face anything. And so then I went through this process for like two years of growing those senses back.

I actually think you learn to smell and taste things. I think that's why kids hate vegetables is like they haven't learned how to process the taste yet. Wow.

And stuff tasted really weird. I had phases where, like my coffee and garlic and, you know, like grape juice would all taste exactly the same.

I know fighter. And he's had a long career and after one of his fights, he lost his sense of smell. It happens. Yeah, he was saying that what drove him crazy was he couldn't smell his daughter's hair like you would hug his daughter. Yeah, he couldn't.

It's so weird. Everything's just neutral. It's so weird. It's really it's depressing. I was like putting like Vicks Vapor rub, like right under my nose. Me and I couldn't smell it.

I would just kind of burn on the skin. And what were doctors saying as far as the recovery?

They said sometimes it recovers and sometimes it doesn't. It's about five percent of back of the head concussions and mine came back.

And I think it's mostly back to normal. I mean, I learned the hard way about a year ago that I still couldn't smell spoiled milk. Oh, you can't.

I can't now, because this is why I think you learn it, because.

So now you can if if you can't smell when I when I for me, my experience was that if I couldn't smell or taste something and I just kept forcing myself to have it before long, I could. And then it would start to taste normal really. But anything that I avoided. So would I ever drink spoiled milk? Well, my experience spoiled milk. So all of a sudden they came home from a trip like last year and I'm like, you know, busted open the cream for my coffee.

And I poured it in and I'm like, this is a sour coffee. Like, it was like a new coffee. So I thought I was maybe just like really acidic. I like this is really kind of gross. And I walked by my wife and she's like, oh, poor that.

Huh? You know, what is the smell?

She could smell it out of my coffee and then I couldn't smell it. But then I started to I actually it's kind of gross, but I actually bought a bottle of milk and just let it go bad just so you could practice my practice smelling.

Now I can smell it. Oh, you're practicing the smell.

It would come back. Yeah. And so the doctor said when I hit my head, though, is it the two things are happening. One happens in the brain and I don't know what's going on. And the other is that the nerve fibers through the Floyd Bone in your nose either can stretch or tear. And those have to if they do, they go dormant and they have to wake back up over time.

So I got lucky, I suppose, because mine seems to be more or less back to normal.

But a year ago, well, it was obviously still thing.

So you still have an issue. So anything that I haven't encountered, I probably won't smell correctly. What about farts and what kind of farts you smell? And it's a pretty regular fart. I think I got those covered at this point. I have a lot of practice those too. Yeah, because some farts are different.

Yes. Right. Well yeah. But what about gas is you know, that was the thing.

I couldn't smell like I couldn't smell smoke for a long time. That's scary. That was actually probably scary. Oh man. When you realize you can't smell smoke, it's scary. Yeah.

Because it's like how you know, if your house is on fire, it's like I wouldn't I didn't want my wife to leave in, like, you know, go on a trip for like a week because it's like something kind of fire, a cooking gas.

I couldn't smell that either. I can't now. I couldn't smell it. It's terrifying.

Come home. You don't even know when your house is filled with gas. Yeah. Have you ever seen what happens to a house when they have a gas explosion?

Yeah, actually, somebody emailed me and said that that's what they're afraid of in Minneapolis with all these riots that they broke out as they were about, they were pretty sure some of the fires are going to hit the gas lines and would have been like in Boston a couple of years ago when the gas line was leaking. And fifty houses. I know a Boston firefighter who told me what it was like to be a firefighter in that mess.

He's driving to a call and then, you know, people run out in the street and stop, you know, stop the fire truck. And they're like, you know, they're yelling and there's a fire we can't stop. And they're like, there's a fire here. And they play like crap. You know, they start trying to do something about the fire there and then the house over there, boom. You know, flames everywhere, walls blow down and stuff.

Yeah. And it was just like at that point, they were like, is this a terrorist attack? What's going on? People are freaking out. But that's what people in Minneapolis just lived through, apparently, too.

Yeah, like you can't have mayhem. It's not good for sleep, it's not good for it's not good for it's not good for anything. Yeah, I was going to say Jerry Seinfeld, that thing, it's not good for business is not good for anybody. Yeah, for Seinfeld.

I saw a video once of a house that it was after the fact this house had a slow gas leak and then it blew up. And I mean, there was nothing left. That's bad. It was crazy. It's like it was splinters. It's bad. Yeah. Yeah, it's exactly right.

Splinter's. Yeah. So, yeah, it was pretty scary. You couldn't smell gas, couldn't smell gasoline. If you're pumping gasoline, you can smell it. And then I had this the house right here. Watch this.

Holy cow. Yeah, Borro, do that again. Rewind that again. So this is some oil or gas leak in that house. Let's see what happens. Bonuses, why stuff has to work.

Yeah, well, again, it goes back to what you're saying, how easy it is to tear something down, how hard it is to build it. That's right. All these people that are tearing down these businesses and looting, then they haven't built anything. I mean, I think about it all the time.

It's like there's almost like this weird belief that everything just happens by magic or something like you can just go, like, fire everybody who knows what they're doing and replace them with people who don't know what they're doing and then want to be just diversity. And I'm not going to say they're not competent, but they do want to focus on diversity or whatever the issue of the day is.

So you can a fire like the super competent guy and then replace him with somebody who at least is going to dedicate some of their time to the diversity initiatives. What's going to happen is eventually stuff becomes less competitive, stuff becomes less efficient. I really feel it when I fly, man. And it's not the thing you think. I don't think all the planes are dropping out of the sky. I start thinking about the air traffic control like, that's complicated, man.

And if you don't have people that are at the top of their game programming, that stuff in those towers looking at that stuff. But it's everything. We actually have a society when when you have an advanced society like we have, you actually have to have people who know what's going on. And we're focusing on the job to get it done, to build things. And it can't all be for I mean, we of course, we have to pay attention to the human resources issue.

But this stuff is all about turning everything into the human resources issue. And then with, like scholarship, I don't even know what to say because they're saying we need to do research justice. And so that means take research. Justice is what they call it.

So there you have to take. Yeah. So you have to like cite more black scholars and women scholars and indigenous scholars. And so you don't cite white people or men, so you can even out their citation scores so they get more promotions and then you have to you have to take academic departments and you have to start hiring more of and I don't mean you have to hire identities.

You have to hire people who think that way because otherwise they don't qualify. And then. You start getting rid of the people who don't think that way, so you're actually concentrating even in like I mean, somebody just sent me something about chemistry. The field of chemistry is like going like for WOAK and it's like, what the hell does that have to do with chemistry?

How can chemistry go? WOAK chemistry is so I mean, that is like one of the more solid disciplines really.

You'll hardly believe it. But the truth is that they woke theory actually believes this. It actually believes that science reason, so on. Evidence, civility, meeting schedules, that's all manifestations of one way of knowing things about the world that happens to be made by white people who are Westerners and men, and that it encodes white supremacy and that we have to open up to other ways of knowing.

I read an article, I'm a mathematician and I read an article recently about how that has to happen in math. So math we have to get away from it, says the idea that math is objective, that it tells you something objective about the world.

And we have to start opening our minds up to other types of mathematics that maybe see things differently and that we should teach that.

Who wrote that? Oh, what's his name? I don't know. There's a there's another one that's very similar. That's by a Chinese scholar turned on or on 10. I get it backwards sometimes that came out in January or something that was saying the same thing that we need to start questioning whether there's objectivity in math. We need to question what math about. And then I see this curriculum. Last fall, it was in put into the Seattle schools.

And you can look that up on Seattle like government education website. And they're like, we need to question we need to look at how how we need to make math class be like asking kids how how have you seen math be used to uphold oppression?

How have you seen math be used to break down oppression? And then how can we turn math to a more collectivist endeavor instead of intellectual individual endeavor? And it's like this is what they're teaching in schools at this point.

So there's a their belief is that objective objectivity, like actual knowledge is not possible and that every culture has its own access to it. And those cultures, like we talk about conflict theory, are in conflict with one another. So science is something that was cooked up by white Western men and it doesn't let other ways of knowing they call it in specifically so that white westermann content can keep the power of getting to define what scientifically true and what's not.

Jesus Christ, no. How do you argue against that? It's so crazy that it's it's like there's no room for logic or reason.

Well, I mean, it's worse than that because logic and reason become part of the problem. The white man's tools, the master's tools, they call it.

Oh, the master. Did you hear that? In Texas, there's at least one real estate group that's no longer using the term master bedroom.

I was going to bring that up earlier when we were talking about how, you know, words have a trace. And it's like that's a key example because the trace is bullshit. You know, where the phrase master bedroom started? No. 1926 Sears catalog. Oh, slavery ended in 1863, 1926 Sears catalog. It was never used with anything to do with slavery. It's just that people imagined that it might have something to slavery because you can't touch the word math or master.

I'm sorry. Right. What about master locks?

Oh, it'll it'll come to it. It'll come to it to change. All of the tech stuff is they've got like master slave switches or whatever they call them and systems all that. I mean I'm getting emails from corporation motherboards. Oh yeah. All that stuff, all that stuff.

It's all got to get changed. Oh yeah.

You can of master and slave you assholes. And here's why.

Because they actually believe that if they change that, they believe that language creates oppression.

That's when I said tearing down discursive monuments. That's actually what the guy was talking about. So if you change the language like magic spells, then oppression will go away, too.

If we have no politically incorrect language, oppression can't possibly happen.

That's literally some Orwell stuff, right? Yeah. I mean in nineteen eighty four was like they'd made newspeak so that people wouldn't be able to have thoughts. Yes.

I mean how brilliant was Orwell.

Pretty brilliant but yeah. I mean amazing that he saw all of this kind of coming but maybe he didn't, maybe he just made it in the like he took it to some ridiculous place that he never really thought people would go.

Right. I mean, there's been a bunch of people who did that.

Of course, you know, Aldous Huxley talked about it and brave new world. But in a very famously now people are getting aware of was a Kurt Vonnegut, the Harrison Bergeron. So this is a perfect equity society. So people who are smarter had to, like, have headphones. And that played annoying sounds.

They couldn't think.

And if they were pretty, they had to wear like a mask so that they wouldn't be as attractive. And they try to make everybody perfectly equal.

And it's like almost prophetic, you know, um, God, that's the problem.

Right. So this idea of, like, the idea should be that we're that we have equality.

Equality of outcome cannot be guaranteed, but they want to force it. But if you were going to guarantee equality of outcome, right. It would obviously be that you wanted to bring everybody up but their content when that doesn't work, to just chop people down. And that's why it's screwed up. Right. Yeah, so now we can't use science because science doesn't use emotions, you can't use chemistry, you can't use chemistry because it doesn't have enough gay people working.

And it was actually the real argument that I saw.

But how do you. So is it your obligation to convince gay people that chemistry is interesting for them to pursue as a career?

It's yeah.

I guess what you have to prove. I mean, higher education will come in.

So there's no obligation to prove that there's been some sort of suppression of gay people. You could just say, like as a fact, there's less gay people that are involved in this, so must be suppressed.

Yeah, that's the systemic racism idea. Systemic, you know, homophobia here.

That's the idea of when they say systemic, that's what they mean. They say we're going to look at the end is anything different than it must have been discrimination somewhere in the system. It's like, you know, all the atheist movement stuff back in the day that the God of the gaps, you know, it's like where did life come from? If, you know, like a religious person to be like if you're an atheist, explain where life came from.

And if you don't know, then it must be God. And now it's like if there's different outcomes, explain where it came from. It must be racist, you know, racism or sexism.

What's interesting is that this equality language never makes its way into blue collar jobs like nobody's clamoring for female garbage men. Yeah, garbage folk.

It's only for for high status jobs, especially ones that work in cultural production. Right. So you have faith, you have education, you have journalism, you have media in general.

It's in scientists and so on. People who get to control knowledge, ideas and so on, because, again, they live in this world where they believe that if they can engineer how people think by what ideas are valid and invalid, then they can make their their utopia.

So it's I mean, like the idea of inclusion, right. So inclusion, like, that's good. We want to include people. We don't want people to feel like left out. We don't feel people feel uncomfortable or like they can't be there.

But when you cook the books and decide that anything that disagrees with you makes you feel unwelcome, now all of a sudden nobody's allowed to disagree with you. Right. And that's actually what happens. And then when you have this idea and you see this in these videos of these universities where you'll have some little students stand up and say, well, this center has too many white people in it taking up space, and that makes us feel uncomfortable because we're used to, you know, having our space taken up and we have no space of our own, you know, in like the most egalitarian, the whole campus.

You can be anywhere you want, but they need like it even justify segregation. You can't have white people around black people too much because that makes them feel unsafe. And then the galling part is that, you know, they call that desegregation.

They call it desegregating the space gaslighting.

It's so gaslighting got anti-racism is like, let's focus on race all the time.

Let's read racism into every interaction. That's anti-racist process. Yeah, it's backwards. It's backwards land.

Well, that's one of the problems with some ideas that promote air quotes. Feminism is that they treat women as if they they can't see things the way that men do.

So they need extra attention, extra help or extra assistance.

My favorite one would like that. Kind of like navel gazing, critical approach. So let me preface just because we have to in this day and age, James, do you support feminism? Which one? Same as Black Lives Matter. Which one do you mean? So that said, one of my favorite patterns is thing happens to everybody. And then feminists think it's oppression against women. Feminists blame patriarchy. So it's like, you know, people interrupt and it's like people interrupt women.

And so that's patriarchy and it's like it actually happens to everybody. Man, my favorite is mansplaining. Mansplaining. Oh, yeah. We're doing that now. Yeah. My favorite is Man Spreading, as you well know, famously a man spreader. I have my profile on Twitter. Is men spreading to the maximum.

Is that what you're doing in your profile? You're. Oh yeah. It's actually funny.

I was doing the thing in London last October. We're doing some talks and I was actually explaining I had one video I did where I didn't even realize that I was man spreading like out of control. I mean, it was like embarrassingly bad. I looked at it.

The first one was a live video. But man, spreading only matters if you're on a subway or bus and someone's next to you and you're amazing.

But that's what the problem is with it. Right.

But they see the action at all, like you got to train it out of people. So anyway, in London, I was very I was actually distractedly mindful not to man spread. Instead, I was telling the story to the crowd and I man spread to demonstrate what I meant by Mansbach.

I just did it again. And somebody snapped a picture of it while I was doing it and sent it to me. And I'm like, that's my profile picture.

So I'm like, and, you know, like a jacket and a tie and I'm man spreading like laughing or whatever.

I feel like I read this. I don't know if I did or not that men are natural. The way their legs sit in their hips, it's natural for their legs display out.

Yeah. Whereas with women their hips are built differently.

That's probably true. Well can you find that out. We also have. How you would Google that? Yeah, but I mean, I think you do. I know I do. OK, definitely just how dare you. But you can't. I'd rather stand up. I mean, if I'm jamming people in like that, I don't mind standing. Yeah, totally. I hear you. Yeah. Unless unless it's a long ass flight but or a long ass train ride.

But I can keep my legs, you know.

I hear you. I'm totally with you. But I think it's a natural thing.

I think it makes sense spread out and like I mean you're fit. I'm fit. I actually have bizarrely large legs. And so it's actually very difficult for me to squeeze my legs.

Here goes the overall width of the pelvis is relatively greater in females in the angle of the femoral neck is more acute. That's right. These factors could play a role in making a position of sitting with the knees close together. Less comfortable in men are high, you fuks. I suspect most men would suggest the reason for adopting the more spread posture in sitting would be the avoidance of testicular compression from the thigh muscles.

The pelvic rotation goes some way to improve compression in both aspects. It's funny the way they say it that way. That's right.

They have to say testicular compression because it's from masculine science, masculinised, white Western science making this claim and it's from the independent.

Yeah, but when you have big legs, man, it's like yes. It's like, you know, if I know I'm going to have to walk a long distance, I have to wear the right underwear.

I'm going to shave it on my thighs. Yes.

Big thighs. So there's a problem behind me.

It's like I need those like a Chuck Norris drop crotch jeans that he had those when he uses kicks.

Do those. Do you remember those? I had a pair of those. Hell yeah. Chuck Norris action action jeans. That's right. Yes.

I had those hats right back. What were you in karate. You know, you don't take one do it right.

Yeah, I do like sport karate back then. So yeah. Those those were the pants to have.

That's right. Everybody, everybody had that stuff. Yeah. Those the people with large thighs man. That's what Boxer briefs are invented for. That's right. I can't wear regular shorts. Like if I just wear shorts and boxer briefs it'll chew my legs up.

That's right. I work out. It kills me. Yeah. Yeah. And large ladies have that issue too. Right.

They're overweight and fat. Studies would say that that is a problem of body blue printing. And it's actually a sign that fat phobic society hasn't designed all clothing around that problem. They didn't design clothing with those in mind.

Another one of my favorite papers, he said, was Fat Body. That's what it is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Fat, body-building, fat bodybuilding. So it turns out Peter has a friend named Richard Baldwin and you should pull Richard Baldwin up. Richard Baldwin is a real professional bodybuilder. He was like, what was it, Mr. Olympia, 1978 or something. Right. And he's also a history professor. So dude's jacked even seventy something. He's jacked.

And so he said we could use his identity to do our papers.

That's him is in the 70s. Yeah, that that's him now.

He's got one in a black T-shirt or it's like he's 71 years old and it's just the that's back in the upper upper.

Yeah. The one, the one where he's doing the most muscular pose right there.

Bam he's still like that. And Jesus Christ.

So he let us use his identity that that's him older.

He's still jacked. I mean he's 65 there.

He's in fact we were like we got to write bodybuilding themed papers because we have a bodybuilder. And so we claim that his is there is the black related images down there is wearing the black t shirt. I actually Photoshopped a copy of that that specific image of fat bodybuilder on the t shirt.

I used to have that picture.

That's him, like when he was letting us use his identity. So there is in the 70s, I think he's like seventy one there. That's insane. Yeah.

Look at those arms. Wow. And yes, we wrote this paper, Fat Body-building, saying that bodybuilders are abnormally large, fat people are abnormally large, muscle and fat are just two types of tissue and it's only fat phobic science that distinguishes their worth and fat phobic society that says one means more than the other. So we even had lines like, you know, you have to build a political there's some quote. It's not it wasn't our line. We quoted somebody.

It says, It takes time to build a fat body. It takes even more time to build a politicized fat body. So that was the theme of the paper. And so we said that there should be, in fact, that professional bodybuilding is a sport needs to add another category. There are four categories for each of men and women that they compete in. Yeah, apparently something like bikini and I don't know what they are, whatever they are.

Yeah. Something they're for.

And I don't remember what they are, but they need to add a fifth one in four fat bodybuilding where people of any body shape and size can come in and it can't be competitive because that would be fat shaming.

And so it has to be just a political performative display rooted in Judith Butler's politics of parody.

Oh my God.

Which we got that idea from reading an actual fat scholar, maybe the leading fat scholar, Charlotte Cooper and Charlotte Coopers is like, totally not drawback. In the U.K., but they hate the Olympics, as you might imagine, it's the maximally fat, fat phobic environment except sumo in the Olympics.

Is it? I think it is. Wow.

No, but they protested the 2000 and there she is in London. So they protested the 2012 games, summer games. And what they did is they held in a park like Fati Olympics as well.

They literally called it they literally call it that.

And it was like them playing dizzy bat and like yelling about and holding up protest signs about how the Olympics sucks. And so we're like, what in the hell is this?

And so then we decided to write this fat body-building paper based off of the idea of politics, of parody, of like making a joke out of the thing. So we're going to make a joke at a bodybuilding. We said the competitors can wear the fat shin.

That's their word, not ours of their choice, which is clothing designed for fat people, fat chin, which is so it's really hard. It's really hard to to talk about, to explain, to criticize the fat study stuff without like it's just so preposterous.

How do you walk the line of, like, tipping them off?

Because it seems like I mean, some of your stuff is so loony that I just sort of like, how do they not know they're being fucked with because they're too serious about they take themselves too seriously.

So I'll give you an example with that exact paper right at the end. You know, it was a big sci fi guy, so he's on to Star Trek.

So we called the last section was Fat Body-building, the final frontier for Fat.

They went berserk about this. They were like, you cannot call it that for two reasons. You can't use the word final because it would imply there is an end to fat activism, which can never end. Oh, my God. And you can't use the word frontier because it reminds you of genocide's.

The frontier like the frontier of the American West, that said, it evokes imagery of the American genocide. So you can't say the final frontier because frontier, the word oh isn't God.

And it was final frontier. But that's Star Trek. I know. How are you doing that?

There's so like I mean, smelling their own farts, man, smelling their own farts all day long. It's so, so frickin bad that I can't I can't.

I like as you're saying, as I know you're telling the truth, but I, I can't imagine that this is this is literally commonplace.

I mean, it's it's so hard not to laugh. I mean, like so we talk about health at every size, you know, who made up health at every size.

Who. Linda Bacon. That's her name.

She's not real. It's like and it's like it's just her name.

It just happens to be crazy, though.

What a great name. It just shows you that the like when Andrew Weiner kept Senate his dick to girls.

Oh, no. Come on, man. This is too on the nose.

Cheesus When I was in grad school, actually we had to learn about. So there's this thing in probability theory. It's named after a mathematician whose last name is Weiner. And so it's actually called the Weiner measure.

And so we had this Chinese teacher, he was talking about the Weiner measure and we're all laughing. And he had no idea why we were laughing because his English wasn't great.

Oh, so awkward. Oh, boy.

But no, it's really weird when stuff like that happens, you know. So you have the fat scholar. Yeah.

Linda Bacon Lindow formerly Trans When Trans Trans Now Lindow.

Let's see health at every size. Oh my God. So she wasn't happy enough with body positivity. She had to go trans. It became real popular.

Looks like she lost the weight too.

That's bad. Christ. Yeah. Why don't you lose the weight. I don't know.

But we could write her career now every size body positivity it every size. Body liberation advocate.

Yeah. Liberation is what this is actually the thing. Speaker, author and scientist.

I'm going to call shenanigans on that last. I got a PhD. Yeah. What's the Ph.D. in. I don't know, but it's not math.

Lindow.

I didn't, I didn't mean the dead namer. I didn't know it had changed. Well you didn't mean it. I could be ruined for that. It's dead naming her right. The thing is, is formally Linda.

It does. I mean, they did named her technique in the book.

Technically, I think we have to update her book now.

Yeah. What which which one is it? It says Lindow Questionmark. Linda would like a seven article. That's insane. My name. My gender. Oh yes.

Um so she she like formally.

Linda is a part of her website. Linda Bacon. OK, so this is straight out of queer theory, so queer theory actually says that it's politically actionable to make things confusing on purpose. So it doesn't make sense, really. I mean, yeah, it's like they literally I can I if I open the book, I can quote it.

They say that it's politically actionable to use intentional confusion, like to to put contradictions.

And in particular, Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick holds up, hold up. Look at how this starts off.

It's hard to be yourself and feel belonging in a culture that it's hostile to your existence for.

But first of all, feel belonging. It's a very strange way to put it. It's hard to be yourself and feel belonging that you belong or, yes, in a culture that is hostile to your existence, which.

But that's that's a loaded sentences.

Yes. Oh, my God. So much. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean. Let's see, there's probably some really good stuff that flourish in a welcoming world, a welcoming part, that's where I said they twist this stuff and it's something crazy, man.

So you get this real sense, though, in fat studies and in disability studies that there's like it's they want to be coddled.

How is she doing fat studies when she's all skinny now? I mean, that's easy now.

Yeah, that's problematic is so but that's a good thing. It's every size. Dr. Bacon's mission. Hold on. That's OK to say there to galvanize a body positivity movement which celebrates the influence of our multiple intersecting identities to provide the critical thought, inspiring vision and practical strategies you need to celebrate. I feel like we're making this person, but we should.

I told you. But that word critical. That doesn't mean critical thinking. Right. I mean, complaining about in a specific way to try to achieve liberation and liberation is the thing that's the critical theory of the Frankfurt school that we're talking about all along.

So what is this person's what was what was the issue that you had with their teaching?

Well, I mean, they're saying this person is like the body positivity person. So the body positivity movement is just all about I was actually just bringing up the person's name. Being bacon and fat studies is kind of funny, but that's rude of me.

But it's crazy that it's not.

But the point is that that the the body positivity movement is why they deny science.

Right. So if, like a doctor says, we're worried about your weight, you know, you need to do something about it that actually is not body positivity anymore, that's that's now telling them that they are wrong for who they are.

So this is like coddling aspect to it. And then this is actually moved into even more. They go even further like people with letters. I don't need a person with letters after my name to tell me who I am. So with like mental illness, they like a lot of them self diagnose and they say that somebody with letters after their names shouldn't determine who they are and. There's this woman that we talk about in the book, Linda Zwi Brown, I'm sure that's her real initials, like she didn't cook that up.

She's got like 12 of the things, but she's self-diagnosis herself is autistic and she has this thing. We quoted it in here and she says that. She I guess there's a there's a stim, they call them for autistic people called flapping and she doesn't flap like it's not one of the things because she maybe isn't even autistic. Who knows? Because she won't get diagnosed. And then she when she says she's in public, she flaps on purpose like she acts it.

She pretends it so that people will recognize her as autistic because the identity is what's so important, because the identity becomes, oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness.

Read the whole freakin book again yesterday. But the thing about Bob's body positivity is I want people to feel good. I do want to feel good.

But I also want them to be actually aware of what the consequences of eating bad food is like. If you care about someone, you want them to know what the consequences of their actions like.

It's one of the weird addictions, food addictions, one of the weird addictions where you you're supposed to not judge the person by it. And you're also supposed to not offer up any suggestions on how they can fix that, because then you are not just judging that person, you're condemning them and their choices. And so it it is an addiction. Right.

And there's an issue because wellness means more than your feelings. Yes.

And it's actually really I mean, it's like, you know, with addiction medicine, they talk about enablers.

Right. But also with addiction. They talk about hitting rock bottom. Like, what does that mean? You have to you have to fail.

You have to get to a point where you're so sick of the way you're living that you will make the necessary adjustments to become a healthier person, whether it's gambling. When you lose all your money or drug addiction, you almost overdose and die. Right? Exactly. Yeah, that's rock bottom. And for a fat person, it's really got to be that it's going to be like, you know, a heart attack scare or something.

Right. Or a doctor telling you or, you know, you've got a problem. It should wait.

And then that's not allowed like right here. She actually says, once I started to get into the territory of diagnosis, once I started playing around with the problem of diagnostic thinking when it is only left a trained diagnosticians that allowed me to challenge how all of us must contend with thinking diagnostically. And so it says right before that, in fact, I don't believe in giving power to the medical industrial complex and its monopoly over getting to define and determine who counts and who does not count as autistic.

That's how these like doctors aren't allowed.

And then she's right here.

How do they decide whether or not someone's autistic is not like. I have no idea. You could check to see if they're diabetic.

You know, I have no idea what the process is, but I assume that the people who are the doctors that study it do know if they did.

And we're finding this out. Oh, no. But yeah, here's the flapping thing.

So what is flapping? I don't know. I I'm assuming it's like actually moving your arms. A little penguin maybe. Yeah. Here we go, Janise on the fucking ball.

As always, when a person with autism engages in self stimulatory behaviors such as rocking, pacing, aligning or spinning objects or hand flapping people around him or her, you asshole. Yeah, maybe confused, offended or even frightened, also known as stimming. These behaviors are often characterized by rigid, repetitive movements and or vocal sounds. Right.

So Lydia Xolair Brown writes, I as an autistic person who doesn't instinctually ornately flap my hands or arms. It was never a stem that I developed independently, well, deliberately and frequently choose to flap, especially in public in order to call attention to myself so that other people, whether autistic or not, might identify me as autistic. That's like stuff that's a scholar.

I mean, we should actually talk about frequent auto ethnography, man. It's like it's a diary entry that pretends to be sociology.

It's so strange. It's. OK, I get it. OK. OK, so, I mean, this is how is that going to help disabled people? It's not enough to say what is disability studies for. Right. Right. How's it going to help anybody?

Then acting your act like what if I what if I decided I self diagnose myself even though I'm a comedian, I say a lot of words I probably shouldn't say in polite company, but I say them all the time. What if I self-diagnosis myself as having Tourette's and so that when I'm out in public I just go, can't can't I just I go and I just like force myself to do it so that people recognize that I have Tourette's.

Well, you know, they were accused of Southpark episode of threats to my thinking is it must be so they like put them in hospital.

Or if you could come up with a funny premise, South Park or is an episode on it, I wonder what would happen.

Actually, I mean, I'm pretty good at figuring out what theory would do it if somebody genuinely did have Tourette's and then part of their tick worked out to be that they said racial slurs.

Oh my God. Like, is that like this? Is that like subconscious racism baked into him? Like, what would happen? I don't actually know what would happen in that. Yeah.

Jesus Christ. Yeah, it'd be baked in. There's like systemic racism. There's like no resolution. Cartman's Torres Kamen pretends to have Tourette's syndrome so that he could say whatever he was getting in trouble. I think I remember this now.

It eventually leads to trouble and he ends up saying things he would never say. Episode's title is a play on the title of Jean-Luc Godard 1963 film Le Petite Soldat. That's funny that Soldotna so day. I don't speak French. I don't know.

You know, I just I remembered something of this the other day that was twenty seven dude guy there. So ahead of the curve or so tapped into this stuff.

Well if anybody is going to attack WOAK culture successfully it will be Southpark.

It will be comedians in general. Yes.

But South Park in particular because they have these characters that they could speak through. These characters don't really resemble people. So you can murder them. I could kill them off every episode. Yeah. Kenny. Yeah. And they, they have this amazing leeway. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

I mean that's what it's going to have to be. It's going to have to be. I mean so that's what I tried to do. I'm trying to lay down the tracks so that people feel like they can actually get into this.

Well I think through what you and Peter and Helen have done through these hoax studies, you've at least highlighted to many people that not only is this a real problem, but it's really hilarious how right far they're willing to go and accept what kind of nonsense you guys are pushing.

Exactly. And like now it's like taking over everything. So it's like, well, yeah, right. What do you do? What do you do?

Because it seems like is there going to be a peak and we're going to hit peak woak. So it's going to slide to normalcy.

I don't know societally, but I actually wrote an article I put on new discourses the other day that I said that we people need to be having conversations right now because I'm like kind of getting disowned by friends and family a little bit.

And the question that I think people need to be asking is, where's the line? Like, because the way people reason is that they'll let themselves slide and then justify it.

They call it post hoc rationalization. That's John Hite's term, and they'll let themselves slide and then justify it.

But if they state their principles up front, because I don't think a lot of people have actually done that and say, OK, I've already defended riots, but let's say that they fire.

You know, all of the department heads or whatever at a university, or they fire this or they burn that down or whatever it is, everybody should have a line that says, OK, wait, this is too far.

And I think individuals need to start figuring out what theirs were so they can tell the story if they've already had it, like you and I have already had that.

And then other people who haven't like we need to be talking to our friends and say, you know, I get that you think the WOAK movement's important and that is doing good things. And, you know, there's some crazy stuff going on and I'm stressed about it. Where do you where do you feel like the line is? Where do you where do you draw the line and say it's gone too far and you don't even it's not about getting the answer.

It's actually about getting them to think about it.

What's happened so quickly? Very quick. And the changes are so radical and what's acceptable and not acceptable and what people are willing to do to people that don't toe the line.

And it's insane like I mean, utter destruction of life. And people who I mean, you're seeing immigrant stories. I'm getting emails from people whose like marriages, like interracial marriages are breaking up. And how do I save my husband?

Well, the All Lives Matter firing thing is just one of the craziest ones. Like you can't say like if someone says, what do you feel about Black Lives Matter? And then you say all lives matter, you get fired from your job.

But, you know, it's it's one of those things where you're being like, obviously all lives matter, obviously.

Right.

But also, obviously, black lives matter.

So why are you so compelled to follow the narrative that if you say something that's obviously true, instead of following the narrative, you get fired.

So because of that, people are willfully self censoring and they're changing their perspective on things because they don't want to be canceled and they want to be fired. Right.

So the question for me is like, how much of that do you have to see before you start saying something has gone awry? Yeah, something's off. This isn't normal, right? This isn't how we do business. You know, I keep finding myself saying, you know you know, I'm on the left.

Really, I don't I don't really get on with conservative stuff. And I'm not really, like, patriotic, like, you know, it gets and I keep seeing myself as like the United States of America. Why is this happening here? You know, it's happening everywhere, though.

It is everywhere. At least it speaks English and I think Spanish now.

Yeah. Yeah. Where does this go? You're a smart guy. Where does this go? We're in a mess, we're a highly nonlinear situation. That's my mistake. So it's actually clear because it depends on a lot of factors, like if we have another police brutality incident against black people in the near term, that's going to be a mess.

Yeah, to me, a huge mess.

It's so hard to tell because it's like Trump is the irritant that's driving like Trump derangement thing is part of what's happening is driven like properly. People are actually driven crazy by this. So what happens with the election tells us a lot. I tend to be optimistic in the sense that this movement is so internally contradictory. So you got, like I mentioned, the trans and queer stuff that's on the Black Lives Matter official about page. So there's another hashtag that's trans black, you know, Black Lives Matter.

And so it's like, is there an all black lives matter?

You know, is that OK to say because it's the same dynamic, but all of a sudden you can't say all lives matter and answer to Black Lives Matter?

What can you say? All Black lives matter and reinserted black trans lives matter. And so it's like it's internally contradictory. Right. And then people are actually kind of catching on that something is not fair, like the white fragility game is just bullshit. You just can't get around it.

The systemic thing is, is something feels unfair about it. And everybody being complicit in racism seems a bit much. So there's all these kind of internal contradictions and there's going to be these inside fights. And so it's hard to say that it's going to take over. On the other hand, we're in the closest thing that we've seen in a long time to the Chinese Cultural Revolution. But they did struggle sessions at these council sessions. They made people do tearful apology and make these they weren't videos.

It was like China in the 60s. But they, you know, put them on public stool and public yelled at him and humiliated him and made aware that was, you know, done or whatever. And that's what these cancel sessions, these they're actually the same thing as struggle sessions are just happening on social media.

It's also signaling to all the other people that haven't been in trouble that this will happen to you. Right. If you do not comply.

And there's some psychological stuff, you know, they say, you know, is there a fate worse than death? There's some psychological stuff that's floating around out there that says that being completely ostracized from your group and being unable to feel like a good person in your society is so psychologically damaging that it might actually be worse, worse than death. And so that's what people are faced with and they're so afraid of it, which is so bad because it's just so transparently bogus and they can't defend itself.

All it does is call names.

So it's hard to say where it'll go. I actually think it will. I my prognosis is that it will break itself. Pretty good, so it will just be the backlash to it, which can be reasonable and liberal people are going to wake up and they're going to have petcoke and they're not going to have more woak and it will chew itself up from the inside with these fights between us. Here's an example of a fight. Here's exemplified 16 19 project from The New York Times.

Nicole Jones writes this, you know, kind of fake history of the United States saying that we're all about slavery. Slavery is everything to do with the United States in every regard from the beginning and still.

And then what are they doing now? Right. So there's this huge, intense fight between the black population and the indigenous population for most racially oppressed. And they both have a pretty good claim on it. Right. So that genocide thing was pretty, pretty big and then slavery was pretty big and it's complicated.

So they're going to they're fighting for status. So you had the indigenous side of that assert that black people in North America are settlers of color, which is a problem. And then you've had Nicole Hannah Jones try to point out that lots of Native Americans held black slaves, which so there were slave owners, which is a problem. So they're fighting over that infighting for status, for the ultimate victim status. And then they've got like that trans things coming.

I saw a video of some black woman the other day yelling about what is this black power fist on the trans flag about? That's not you know, that's not what this is about black people. And so we have white people, trans white people put in there.

And I thought it was really clever that trans people jumped in and had that black Trans Lives Matter rally. Right.

Because it was like the you might be the only people that can get away with this right now, this thing. No one else can happen on that. But black trans lives matter.

And there was like hundreds of thousands of people because everybody felt like you had to just keep keep protesting.

Yeah, exactly. So I think it's going to chew itself up inside. But everything that took over is going with it. Like the I don't know how long it can take the university to not be kind of like I don't know about that anymore.

Well, yeah. When do they say anything like that, particularly if they get so much massive pushback from the people that they're, you know, they're teaching.

Right. I mean, the number of people right now that are saying they want deferrals partly because of the covid and online classes, they don't want to go back to college. And this stuff's blown out in every college presidents, like we're going to be a full anti-racist thing. The other thing nobody's factoring in yet is the other backlash, which is going to be law.

OK. Niagara Falls of lawsuits is coming because a bunch of people are so here's like imagine you run a business, you do run a business. So all of a sudden, you know, this event happens. Everybody's supposed to have their statement. There's tons of social pressure to make your statement. If you don't make a statement, it's compelled, you know, say, oh, your business didn't say something about Black Lives Matter. So you have to say something one way or the other.

So everybody's making a statement.

Everybody's trying to do the thing and they don't know what to do. So I hear from a lot of people that email me about at their job, whether they talk to their boss and the boss is like, well, we have to do something. And there's this, you know, there's this program, this anti-racism program. So we have to do something. And that's the thing. And we'll just take it up. And a lot of people are successfully pushing back on that and saying, look, there are other ways we can actually do other diversity programs.

And this one and when they realize that, you know, a lot of bosses are saying, oh, yeah, maybe we should think a little harder about this. So everybody's acting really fast and there's a clear moral panic going on. So people are making bad decisions and they're opening themselves up to a lot of future litigation. Like if you're actually having an official statement or policy of your company that says something like that, you believe that all white people are complicit in racism or racists, then you've now called all your white employees racist.

That's not good. That's probably discriminatory.

But do you think you can actually sue someone for that? My point isn't whether or not you can. My point is that a lot of people are going to try.

But I think that the courts are even siding towards being more woak because it's society's cultural shift. Some yes, that direction, some yes and some no.

And that's there's a point to that. But on the other hand, for example, if you look at the title nine cases where those mostly boys, but it wasn't always boys got totally railroaded and kangaroo courts, they got accused of sexual misconduct, the university ends up expelling them or whatever, you know, the girl with a mattress or whatever happened.

And then they're suing in civil court and they're almost all winning.

Is that did that kid, the mattress boy, did he sue.

I don't know if he did specifically or not, but I do know that there have been a number of civil suits. That lady was bringing her mattress on the stage when she accepted her her diploma.

I mean, it's performance art. Yeah, it's just performance art. It's it's really like we can't run the world on performance art, though.

Yeah. What's really strange, too, is that if you accuse someone of something and it turns out that not be true, you don't really get in trouble for that, that that's thing.

That's a real problem.

That's a thing because there's no actual repercussions for being deceptive and ruining someone's life. I have a friend who was accused of sexual assault by a woman, and it was proven that he didn't do it and nothing ever happened to her, that she made some stuff up about him. And so we got laws against revenge porn.

Right. You can't, like, film your girlfriend or whatever, and then you break up and then you put it on her and put her on the Internet to put her on blast or embarrass her or whatever. That's against the law. Now, we made laws about that. I mean, this doxxing stuff are these videos where they're filming people and accusing her of being a racist and it blows up their lives like there may have to be legislation built around that.

So the question becomes, will the political will be there? That depends on the people and it depends on the politicians. I know your lovely state here of California, just the state legislature just voted to take the anti-discrimination language out of the state constitution, which I think is a bold move. Um, I think the people get to decide on that in the end and maybe November.

But what is the anti-discrimination language in the Constitution that they're removing?

Yeah, you're going to pull that one up. That's like Article 31 or something like that. It is unbelievable that they voted to put this up to be pulled out of the Constitution. What what was there?

It's like you can't discriminate or favor by race, gender, sex, sexual orientation and so on and so forth. Why would they remove that?

Because equity requires discrimination. If you listen to this guy that's blasting all over Ibram Kendy, the How to be anti-racist even has a sentence in the book where he says that you have to evaluate everything according to whether it has racist or anti-racist outcomes. So if you have discrimination policy that says you cannot discriminate and then that makes it so you don't have equity, then that's actually a racist policy. So they're actually advocates.

I mean, equity report, you're getting discrimination. Correct. But it'll be positive to discriminate. Well, it might actually discriminate against white males. It'll be discrimination for at first discrimination for minorities. So the equivalent of affirmative action and reparations.

And then they'll add in possibly discrimination against if they aren't achieving what they're trying to say.

Is this clear that this is their motivations?

Is I mean, they don't lie about it. They just say it all the time, is that if it's if you don't have equal outcomes, then the system must be I mean, you can say, oh, this is like putting like, you know, wallpaper over a hole in your wall.

If the system has unequal outcomes, it must. May be discrimination, so you're just going to going to change the policies to make up for it and I mean, they say it explicitly and you see this, that there have been actually there's a lawsuit, at least one lawsuit, one in New York City, where they were openly discriminating against Asian students like they were they were discriminating against Asians to make because they're you know, they're academically kicking all the ass.

And so they were making it more difficult for they would have to have had a higher GPA to get in. Yeah.

Where is going what's going on with that? Harvard. There's a lawsuit with Harvard with that. Right. I don't know where where it's out, though. Yeah, that is that's troubling.

This is troubling stuff. And I mean, I would say California does this. I don't know what happens because it's in violation of the federal laws.

So, I mean, it's directly against Title seven.

Who's pushing for that? Who I mean, all of these kind of like hustlers that are getting all famous are pushing for it.

But then again, as your state legislature actually voted amongst themselves to put it up to a vote, all the more reason to to move to Texas or something like it's so spooky.

It's like, where do they think this shit goes? It's like there's no map of the territory. There's no like if we do this, then, you know, we're going to have this kind of success in the future because, you know, we'll we'll discriminate to the point we reach some sort of homeostasis. I mean, some equality. There's some there are some scary judge ruled for Harvard.

Wow. Their Web says the ruling was last October, I think. Interesting. The politically motivated lawsuit brought by Edward Blum, the organization he created, Students for the Fair Admissions, wants to remove the consideration of race in college and university admissions.

What's at stake? The ability of colleges and universities across the country to create the diverse communities essential to their educational missions and the success of their students. So the problem was that so many of these Asian kids were doing so well that they had a disproportionate number of Asian students and they wanted to balance it out better.

They want more blacks and Latinos specifically. They usually say, at least in New York City, they they actually say it. But it's blacks and Latinos. They say it over and over and over again. The Asians and whites and Jews are filling all the spots and more blacks and Latinos aren't. So what you're actually looking at is they're trying to move to a space where they can put racial quotas in.

That's so crazy and it hurts people. Right. So if you take a like with Harvard, Harvard's hard it's a hard school. So if you take somebody who's academically not prepared for Harvard and you stick them in Harvard, they're going to underperform. Right.

And then if you stuck them in a school that they actually are, you know, that matches their their capabilities, then they're going to excel. That's how it works. You can't like if you if we went out to the gym, we put some weights on there.

Right. And you're like, right. Going to bench 400 pounds. I'm like, no, I'm not. But it's like, you know, you wanted to coach me. You would say, all right, we found out you can do like 190 or whatever. So we're going to push yourself and try 195. You know, within that little bit of a range, you can call somebody to excel. And then within however many months or years, I'm benching three, 400 pounds.

You can't just put people in hard mode and then watch them succeed. And then again, I get these emails from people are telling me their story is I get this one from this black guy who said that he never had any of his work corrected. And how does he know in his master's program?

How does he that how does he know when his master's program?

So he started deliberately putting mistakes in to see if they'd correct it. And they wouldn't they didn't correct it like he was putting mistakes in on purpose.

Right.

So he's getting A's all these papers that he was writing that were just junk and now he can't get a job because his skills never developed to the point where they're actually competitive. So it's like trying to help people by the wrong means, hurts them.

Well, they don't care about the end result, right. They don't care about you getting a job. They really just care about you graduating and looking good on there.

It's like I said, it's like putting wallpaper over a hole in the wall and considering it fixed. It's like, oh, we're just going to fix the numbers on the back end and problem solved, you know?

But if Harvard really wanted to make things equal, they would try to figure out why they're not. Based on, you know, what, if they have only X amount of white people in X amount of Asian Y Y, are there less of this race now than the other? Exactly. And let's let's put some study into what can be done and use all these brilliant minds to figure out what can be done to make this better.

So that's the difference between critical theory and traditional theory. So you're saying we should do traditional theory, which every reasonable person in the world now knows and they don't want to.

Let me give you an idea like this systemic thing makes that impossible. So imagine I'll give you an analogy that helps you understand what systemic, say, racism, systemic, what this idea really means. So imagine like you and I go out for a walk down the sidewalk, right. And for whatever reason, you step on, you know, the back end of a broken bottle and you trip and you bump into me and you knock me into the road when you trip.

And I happen to get hit by a car and I die. OK, so whose fault was that? Obviously, usually we'd probably say like no fault or whatever, but if you start looking at it the way that these scholars do and this is actually tracking the same argument that's in the book Being White, Being Good by Barbara Applebaum about white complicity, what happens is you could say, well, you it's your fault for tripping and it's my fault for deciding to walk on the street side versus the the inside and walking right next to you instead of fighting in front of you.

It's the person who drove the car's fault for, you know, maybe they were speeding. Maybe maybe they happened to have chose to go at that time. Maybe the doctor called and they had to run out of the house. So the doctors now got some complicity in the situation.

The kid who broke the bottle last night after he had a couple of beers, well, it's his fault. So he's complicit. But then if you go all the way to this systemic understanding where you're just looking at the back and the wallpaper over the hole in the wall, it would be saying, well, we live in a culture where people drive cars and drink beer. We live in a culture that supports cars and beer. Everybody that supports car culture, everybody supports the economy, that allows people to afford cars.

Everybody who supports the culture that would allow beer to exist is also somehow complicit. That's actually the same argument that the White Complicity and Racism book makes everybody car. Culture is to blame for me getting hit by that car. And so you can see it makes it impossible to figure out where moral responsibility actually lies because it puts it on everybody and it makes it impossible to see what the actual causes are. Another story I had from similar to this was from University of Michigan.

There's this program called Stride, and it's supposed to fix for these disparities. So I'm talking to somebody and he's talking about hiring, academic hiring.

And he says, OK, the way the Stride Stride program looks at it, for whatever reason, men have twice as many of this as women, whatever the thing is. And so Stride says, OK, so if a woman applies, you count the number. If a man and a woman apply, you count the number the man has, you double the number the women have. And I said, hang on a second. Wait a minute. Do you know why that number is different?

He said, no, nobody knows why it's different. It just is. So we're just gonna double. And I said, but some of that might be discrimination and some of it might not. And I would agree with you that we should consider making up for the part that is discrimination. So maybe it's half of that is discrimination. And so you add of something, but you don't double it because some of it might be something different and you don't know.

And he was like, well, what else could it be? Right. So this systemic thinking prevents you from being able to start thinking of what the real causes, the real problems are. So it's again, it's fixing your hole in your wall by just like let's just put up some wallpaper, you know, but systemic thinking right now, it's very popular.

It's so hot. It's everything. Yes. They love saying it, too.

It sounds good and it's religious. I mean, it's a spiritual thing, right? Yeah. There's a system. It works in mysterious ways.

And it does in a lot of ways it works.

I mean, this comes back to if we look at the book, Michelle Fusco's philosophy, power and politics work through everybody constantly, by the way that we speak about things or the way we think about things. So you have this kind of like vague, mystical sense of how society works is that it's operating through everybody and everybody's complicit and tied into it.

Well, I don't have a problem with them being wrong. We have a problem, but I do have a problem that this stuff can't be questioned. Right. And that if you even bring it up, you get insulted and you know, you're probably going to get attacked now.

That's right. You know what else I have a problem with is that they come in and they sell you something like anti-racism or diversity or inclusion or equity, and they don't tell you really what it means. It just sounds good. Right. And so that's why I'm writing that encyclopedia. My opinion, you know, I am a firm believer that people should be able to believe what they want.

They should be able to within injuring people or whatever, you know, do what they want. You should really we should have freedom, a lot of freedom. And so I think that people, though, should be able to know what they're signing up for. And this language is so tricky. They've really engineered the language to be so tricky that people think, oh, anti-racism, that sounds really good. So let's do it. And it actually, like the definition of it is a lifelong commitment to self reflection, self critique and social activism.

It's ongoing and no one has ever done. That's actually the definition.

Isn't that kind of what's wrong with a lot of this bullshit is that we're monkeying around with definitions and language. We're changing, we're changing language. We're screwing with what things actually mean to the point where everything gets very vague and confusing and to challenge it. Right. You're ostracized. That's right.

Everything like when you hear like like antifa talk about fascism and everybody's a fascist, everybody's a Nazi. Now what they actually like, if you dig in and figure out what the word fascism means, it actually means a functioning society. Because it has to have like police has to have order, it has to have, you know, an economy that functions, it means not anarchy, because anything that could lead to a total fascist state equals fascism in the present.

According to the way you think about it. That comes again from that Herbert Marcuse, a guy who wrote this, they wrote it explicitly in repressive tolerance in 1965. We live in a perpetual state of emergency now that fascism has entered the world. So everything that can produce fascism is fascism.

Sure. And it's like the I'm sorry, man, that's that's fucking lunatic. It's just not real.

Yeah, but how does this get corrected if you can't criticize it? That's the real issue, right. If it's if it's happening at the university level, but it's not being questioned at the university level. So there's no real debate.

So how does this ever get corrected? It seems like it has to get out into the world. And then by then the fire is so big there's not enough hoses to put it out. That's right.

That's actually kind of the way this has worked, is that they've got so many people thinking this way, it's hard to put the fires out, but. The answer is not going to be very palatable. The name calling has to lose its credit, not all the way to some degree. So like you and I were talking about earlier, was it feminism? Was it Black Lives Matter? If somebody calls me a racist, if somebody calls me a racist, I don't freak out.

I stay home and I say, what do you mean by that? Right, and so they say, oh, well, systems, blah, blah, blah, no, I'm not. I'm I mean, their definitions that say things like there's there's only racist antiracist, there's no such thing is not racist. Like, screw you, I'm not racist. Just that is crazy. Just move on like.

So when did Antiracist rear its head? That seems a fairly new expression, but it's getting tossed around like a beach ball at a concert.

It became big just in the last few years off of a couple of these authors like Ibram, Kendy and Robin D'Angelo, who dedicate a lot of their work to it. Daniela's book that's relevant was 2018. And Kendis was I think I think I have to check 2019 for his How to be an antiracist. Yeah.

This is the same lady that wrote The White Fragility. That is white fragility I'm talking about. That is that is from a I mean she has other twenty eighteen, she has other books that are even crazier, like what does it mean to be white.

Oh so she's a hustler. She's a big time hustler.

She has this paper I actually found somebody sent it to me the other day.

This is a real paper and it's called something about the racial cray cray white neurosis and the racial craker from twenty thirteen like you can find if you Google that name, the racial racial cray cray people.

Nobody believes it's the most one of the most insane things I've ever read. It's got these sections like in the paper, you know, introduction or whatever. And then at the beginning of each one, it's like they just make something up, like this weird rant.

And then it ends in a poem and it says that that white people in white supremacy cause a racial cray cray and white people and then white racial craker causes other people to have to live with racial crookery.

So they get racial crookery, too. I'm not making that up. That's that's real.

White supremacy is another one that's getting chucked around quite a bit. It's because they've changed the definition. Yeah. You know what? You know what? Some things. So I'm going to point out, this is actually from a legislative body sorry, an administrative body set up by the state legislature of Washington in January called the Equity Tax Task Force. And you know, what they said was white supremacy coming through their mouths as they they said it, keeping a meeting agenda, staying on a schedule.

There's a two thousand seventeen paper by Alison Bailey that talks about those specific things, those specific things.

Keeping a meeting schedule. Yes, a schedule, an agenda.

So there's actually something that I read a year or so ago because of the schedule thing that wearing a wristwatch, because that means you care about time and being on time is white supremacy.

White supremacy is believing that the society that white people created, which means science, reason, logic, civility, rule of law, democracy, that that's good.

That's the definition of white supremacy.

So somebody called me a white supremacist once.

You know that that all white society isn't Egyptian as well.

I mean I mean, not the way they think about it. All they care about is the way that the white Western men following the Enlightenment started to use this to oppress people. Oh, God, that's a watch.

Is white supremacy watches or white supremacy. So this Alison Bailey woman has this paper where she literally the point of the paper is to say anything that disagrees as a man or anything that disagrees with somebody just trying to keep their privilege as because of privilege, preserving epistemic pushback. That's a real term. And so in the paper, though, she says that the master's tools and philosophy, which are that slavery, right.

That's white supremacy, the master's tools that maintain white supremacy are like philosophical soundness, epistemic adequacy, which means knowing what you're talking about, science or reason like that's what they think white supremacy is sciences, white supremacy.

That's why you have to now have to redo chemistry and make chemistry, OK, because this is being taught in schools.

So people are paying money to learn this. Correct.

And that legislative entity in Washington, their equity task force, they defined equity.

Like when I say equity, you probably you know, what do you think? You think something like equality, something different, a little bit something. But you have that vague sense of equality. They said it equals disrupt plus dismantle.

Tear down the system, and then they also said the point of this body is to set this up, that was their official definition, by the way. And the point of this body is to establish this administrative entity for 50 years for the state of Washington.

Jim, you hurt my head. Dude, I'm telling you, I'm like I've been like, I'll tell you the truth.

Since these riots broke out, I've actually been much calmer for about the last six to eight months. I've been literally having my right eyelid twitch, like constantly all the time, even had it twitching in my sleep to wear the muscle that causes your eyelids to, like, flutter got cramps.

That sucked. What do you mean?

That's from it was from knowing that this shit was happening and nobody having any way to see it. And I was trying to write this website as fast as I could. I wrote like 200000 words on new discourses from Christmas to like the riots broke out.

I was like, I'm trying to tell the world about this. At least more people are listening. That's what I'm very hopeful about.

It was a thing that you were talking about a few years ago. And people are like, why are you wasting your time on this nonsense? This will never be a factor in the real world.

Incorrect, incorrect. Incorrect. Yeah, that's why we started writing this book.

It was to explain that to people because we were getting gas lit. I mean, we were getting told by philosophers that we just didn't know what we were talking about. And then Helen wasn't going to have that.

And she was like, I'll just write a book and tell them Helen's our machine gunner, man.

I need to meet her. She said she can't come over here from the UK, right? Not now. Not with these viruses and stuff.

Back then she couldn't when we did our first podcast, either she could if like, you know, the virus and health and stuff can get associated, I hope it clears up.

She's the most perfectly principled and clear person I think I've ever worked with. She's a marvel. That's a hell of a statement.

Yeah, well, she said that I'm the least sexist person she's ever worked with, which I think is also. Wow, pretty good.

Congratulations you do. To purge your obvious innate. I just treat people's ideas as ideas. So the reason she said that was because I didn't like there's a thing called benevolent sexism where you're too nice to women and I just don't do it.

Oh, benevolent sexism, interestingly. Hold doors open and shit like that. Correct. You piece of shit. She could hold the door open herself. Yeah, well, I mean, what about if you hold doors open for men only? I mean then you seem like a sexist too. That's right. Double-Blind. You're damned if you do. You're double fucked. They're right. That's right. So you have to see like you have to see see race.

But if you see race, you're racist.

Right? Because if you say I'm only holding doors open for men, they've got a piece of shit sexist to you. I don't know. I'm not a sexist. So I don't hold doors open for women cause they could do it themselves.

So here's Helen's example of a perfect double bind. But it's race. It's not sex, but it could work exactly the same, she says. Imagine that you have a store and a shop keepers there and a black customer and a white customer both in store at the same time. And the shopkeeper, like, goes up to help one person first.

So if they go and this is what critical race theory. This is how to analyze what happens if she if the shopkeeper goes to the white person first, it would say that's clear racism, white favoritism and make the black person wait. But if the went to the black person first, I would say it's clear racism because you wanted to get the black person out of the store faster.

Oh, boy. That's literally how critical race theory.

What would operate with that?

Because if you do well, one of the tenants of critical race theory is that racism is ordinary, not aberrational in the United States society. And it is not the question is, no longer did racism take place. For that is to be assumed, but rather how did racism manifest in that situation? So, I mean, that's that that quoted Robert D'Angelo for that. So the belief is that racism is in literally every every interaction and it's up to the critical race theorists.

That's the writer's job, is to find it even if you have to make it up like master bedroom. God, I think the master bedroom thing was voluntary. I think someone just in that business was said we probably shouldn't.

It blew up on Twitter about a month ago because I live on Twitter, as you know, of like basically like Niota into the Twitter Matrix and took days off.

Uh, yeah.

No, I mean, not really lately, because it's like if my eyelids are twitching because the world's going to end, man, what are you going to do?

But if you know you know, like Mike, the filmmaker came to visit and like we went hiking and stuff and it was days off, you know, we were talking about this stuff, but we were out in the woods and, you know, doing normal stuff. I try to get out. I mean, with a pandemic, it didn't I don't really. But I try to get out. Like, usually I get my trip to China every year and two weeks and it's just, you know, no work.

So some but not much, especially right now, man.

It's like it's not good to be like one of the few people who's actually like, I'm watching the train, like, wrecking. And everybody's like, what's happening?

You know, that's the thing is that you're willing to call it for what it is, which is a very dangerous game right now. That's right.

It's a very dangerous game because most people don't want to hear that.

I can do it because I actually know what I'm talking about. So when they come back at me, I quote their own literature at them. And usually they don't know their literature as well as I do because I've read all this crap. I read a lot of it over and over again. I've read Daniela's book twice.

I've read, you know, it's a heavy burden you've got in your head.

Oh, dude, it's not it's not a good place. I mean, I keep trying to tell people, people like, oh, you're a grifter, you're trying to know. It's actually I want to make myself irrelevant by making this go away and then I want to retire.

That's it, that's all I want in life, that grifter term gets used really inappropriately all the time. Anybody doesn't disagree with someone who is a grifter, particularly if you disagree with someone who has a right wing philosophy or excuse me, a left wing philosophy.

You don't know how to make money to be a grifter. I made zero dollars for the vast majority of the time. I make a little on Patreon now, so I can't say it any more. But I made zero dollars for the majority of the time that I've done this.

And people are calling me a grifter because I was getting Twitter followers like Twitter followers are somehow like value or something. There is some value to it. I mean, you can monetize a little bit or you can like, you know, I guess I could put my dark plans and I don't I don't even know what dark plans.

No, my whole thing is like I don't want to tell people what to do right. Like all these people come to me.

That's what I don't want people telling you what to do and see that they're doing this.

Correct. And so it's like people come to me, they're like, how do I live? And I'm like, man, I will tell you the truth. I actually think I have a pretty good handle on how I live.

But I don't know your circumstances. I don't know how I don't know your story, so I don't know how to tell you what to say. I know some principles are some are good. I'm real big on authenticity, real big on authenticity. I actually should write something about authenticity that is clear and accessible for people. I think people should be authentic. I think you should take the time to learn who you are.

Hmm. Take the time. It's not easy. It's not easy. And it's best done through struggle.

That's right. In it is.

It is. You have to go wrestle up against some stuff. You have to be told where you're failing. You have to be told where you saw it.

Yeah. You have to have a discipline. Right. Usually there's something about doing a thing that lets you know who you are.

I mean, it's not for everybody, so I can't say it. But the martial arts have been great for that. For me to have them for you. Yeah, it works for a lot of people. Some people.

I mean, you don't have to do that, though, right? In yoga, anything find find a discipline. And it's really special when you push yourself, you find out, you find out where you're going to quit, you find out your shortcomings, you find out where you're you're you know, where your demons are, where the skeletons are in your head. That's right.

And, you know, ideally, it needs to be something that bounces off a reality. Yeah, right. You can't like if it's just going in reading and writing stuff, that's how you like, you can go pretty far out into la la land. Right. So you need to bounce, bounce it off reality. I used to say it philosophers need I used to work a lot in my garden and I would say that I suck at gardening by the way.

But philosophers need to get their hands on the soil because you can't lie about it. You feel it, you smell it. It's heavy. I'm from Tennessee, so it's like sticky clay. You can't get it off you.

And it's like in the earth smell is that it's like wet and it's like it's real and you're sweating and it's like, you know, you can't reality won't lie to you.

Right. And that's where this is. So like my my answer to this problem is we need to remember the objective principles work and that we need to defer to reality, not lying to us because we can lie to ourselves all day. We can lie to ourselves and say that Fallon Fox is exactly the same as the people she's whose heads she literally beat in and then went on Twitter and bragged about how it was fun to crack that person's skull.

Yeah, like that. She derived enjoyment from that. You can you can you can go on that. You go on Tumblr, Twitter and deconstruct your identity and become a completely different person. But reality doesn't lie to you. It never lies to you. Right. The only thing that lies is your lived experience, your interpretation of your lived experience of reality. So I think that people need to do that, you know, do something hard, try to build a thing.

And when it falls down, because it will try again. Like I tried getting into blacksmithing for a little while. A year or so ago, I made a couple little knives, like really little knives, because I only had a little tiny forge. So they're like really little, like embarrassingly little. But I was just fooling around, you know. But the steel doesn't lie, right? And when you drop the steel like I did one time and it's yellow, whatever it touches, catches on fire, that doesn't lie either.

Right. So it's like you have to I think people need more reality, like they need to unplug.

Yeah. Isn't that is a that's a problem with just thinking. Right. Just thinking and then also expanding, expounding upon those thoughts in front of other people that are also just thinking and you're all doing it together like you need some sort of a tangible physical discipline to go along with that. Right. That's sort of temper's you.

That's I think that's exactly right. And something that's, you know, a long practice that makes like yoga or martial arts or running to, like, get good at it. That's really great because, you know, you're going to have pitfalls and you're going to learn to struggle and overcome. You're going to develop a little bit of stoicism is going to come with just to get through.

Yeah, you have to. Yeah, you have to. Because, I mean, you know, I've had matches before where I went on and I was all hot shot or whatever back when I used to do sport core audience.

Somebody just kicked me in the side of the head and I was like unconscious. And that's just the end of that, you know?

And it's like you got to reassess your cockiness real fast. Yes.

Once you get your your your head kicked so hard, you get knocked out like I need even see the kick.

I just woke up. Later, you know, so it's like. Something like that, where you're going to have these pitfalls, or like I had when I was learning the martial arts, I train now, I had a really long period of time where what we called it was a knowledge use gap, like I could do the forms or whatever, or I could practice the techniques and I could do them what looked to be accurate when I try to do them on a person that didn't work.

Right, until it works on a person, it doesn't work, right? Right, I even said this on Twitter this morning is I think we need to have an ethic and the like.

Our culture needs to start remembering an ethic that your education, whether it's, you know, school or whether it's, you know, training or whatever it is, is worth what you can build with it. It's not worth anything more than what you can build. So if you go to like trade school and you end up building some great business empire, your education was good. And if you go to university and get a Ph.D. and do a couple of postdocs and all you can do is whine and complain and you can't do anything productive, your education wasn't good.

And it doesn't see you immediately move like these weird elite credentialling things from that, it's what can you do with it that proves whether or not it was good in the world?

I think we need to kind of remember it's like a pragmatic thing, right?

What can you do with this? Right. And some people that can only teach the same thing that they learned. Right. And that becomes a problem because then you're so indoctrinated in the system and you just sort of perpetuating the same shit that got you to where you are and just keep making it more and more significant, more and more important in terms of the way you describe it to people.

Right.

So we look at this this stuff that they're trying to do with, like education. One of the big movements now is to take tests out of our schools.

Yeah, what's that about? Well, they don't want to they don't want to test. They can show that their stuff failed. Mm. Right.

They say that's not what they say, but that's what it is.

They also don't want competition between students. Exactly. They don't. They want to. They want to. In particular the test scores don't come out equal across all identity groups.

Therefore the test must be racist. Racist towards Asians apparently.

Yeah, yeah. They're the master race when it comes to school. You know, we all got to practice Remender.

And if this keeps up, are you do you have hope? I always have hope. I am.

I mean, I am actually naively optimistic.

Generally. I don't really you know, it's more like this. It's not even that. Oh, no. I don't have time for people who are pessimistic whiners. Even if this is the fucking end of the world, I'm not going to act like it is. I'm not giving up. If these people guillotine me in the end, I'm fine. But I'm not I see no value in saying, oh, it's hopeless. Right. So I'm an atheist.

We talked about that. And I would have actually said that last year if I was writing my memoir was finding faith and have faith in God.

Didn't happen. Sorry, Christian friends, it just didn't happen.

But there there is the ability to have faith in that if you do the work and that if you get yourself organized and you put your effort in on a program that can actually achieve a result, that you can again, like judges is a really great example.

I mean, everybody changes who gets humbled, humbled. But the deal is if you go to a qualified jujitsu instructor, whether it's a crazy whether it's, you know, one of these other, there's lots of them now that are really good.

They have a program that you can have faith in because it reliably produces black belts who can basically kill everybody. Right. And so you can have faith like you're going to go and four years you're going to suck. You're going to get choked out.

You're going to get you're you know, you're going to get beat by you're going to be a purple belt and get choked by a white belt who got a good move on you.

At some point, you're going to have a bad day afterwards. It's going to come up sometimes or some, you know, tricky kid knows some wrestling is going to throw you and you're like, how did this happen? It's going to happen.

And but if you have faith in that system, then you can also get there so that qualified faith is there. And so I actually think that the principles we've laid down, for example, in our country work this. Let's defer to the evidence.

Let's defer to a rule of law knowing that we have a democratic process where we can remake the law as we need to, hopefully incrementally and not through some stupid revolution, and then that can work. So I have to be hopeful because I know the thing can work if we're willing to kind of stand up for it and remember it.

I'm hoping that with all this looting and the chaos and the smashing things and the riots and the people like we were talking earlier before the show about this guy, who is that a he was at a protest in Provo, Utah, and he was just trying to honk the horn to get through and they shot into his car.

That's madness. It's crazy. It's man, it's crazy.

And I'm hoping that this stuff is going to alarm people to the point where they start recognizing where this is going. That's what I'm saying with his OK.

Yeah.

Tearing down like if that's been like for me so much. I mean, I was already past peak woak, but like a real moment of wake up call like this, you know, there have been moments where this stuff has flared up in the past and you're like, oh, it's going to die down. Commonness, not this time.

And what it was, was watching the media lie, watching the media defend stuff that's just not defensible.

Right. And it's like, OK, so this is a thing I don't actually expect your average citizen to like. I don't expect people to know a damn thing. It's hard. Life's hard. You go work your ass off, you come home, you don't time to learn everything in the universe.

But if you have a few of a job and like media or if you're in the government or you're like a college, I expect something out of you, you know, and I think we all have a right to expect something out of you. So when you have some guy on the media yelling that, where does it say anywhere for a protest to have to be peaceful? It's in the First Amendment. You know, you actually should probably know that I expect something out of you.

So we've got to there's there's actually a crisis, we could call it, of expertise if you want. But there's a crisis of being able to recognize. That people, you know. Are being held to an expectation of quality, and I think the Internet has facilitated it. I think that the incentives around like hotcakes go viral, whereas nuanced analysis doesn't go viral.

That heartache on where does it say that protests have to be peaceful like Jesus Christ, man, what are you talking about? And who are you pandering to with this?

Exactly. That's what I'm talking about. Like, it's so but that's the way he said it was so disingenuous, like, oh, I know.

You could tell he was just saying it for the reaction, saying it for the fact that at this time, people are there's a lot of people that are interested in stirring shit up and getting getting real change.

And they think that through these violent protests, as long as it's not affecting them personally through these violent protests, some good will result. Right. But it's not that's that's not the only way to do it. It's also not in the Constitution. That's right.

And I mean, I hear I mean, I remember, you know, Martin Luther King wrote the thing and he said that the riots are the voice of the utterly voiceless, the frustrated of the unheard of, the unheard.

That's right. And I get that man. I you know, he also said he also said that you don't want to I don't want to misquote him.

So we should probably get the exact quote. But there's more to that quote. Right. It stops. It doesn't stop there.

Right, exactly. And I understand like, well, the covid the whole thing. I understand that massive frustration and I understand it. But I expect my journalists. I expect my politicians. I expect my university presidents to be able to make clear.

Statements that side with civil society, and you can even say, I recognize that outburst.

The problem is the outbursts, anger that they will experience from people that disagree with them is so much stronger than the support that they were experienced for people that from people that do agree with them. That's the problem.

Was the full Martin Luther King quote that was at the riot is the voice of the unheard. Is that what it was? There's but there's more to areas where he's talking about I mean, he a very nuanced, yes, very nuanced writer, but he's talking about the dangers of speaking to Martin Luther King.

You know what I actually like? What's my biggest conspiracy theory?

Yes, I think that the movie Black Panther was a hoax on black people. What's the movie? Black Panther. You know, the movie Black Panther. Like the big Marvel.

Oh, that one. Yeah. That was a hoax. I think so.

Oh, come on now. It's a it's a hoax because first of all, they were all in about it, right? They loved it. Absolutely loved it. They're on their own.

So that was a good movie. It was a good movie. I liked it. I actually like that film. How is it a hoax here? It was a hoax on WOAK people specifically because, see, I'm a master at hoaxes of all people, as you will know. Right.

The story. Actually is an allegory for Martin Luther King versus Malcolm X, so King T'Challa is Martin Luther King and Eric the bad guy, the fake Black Panther is Malcolm X, and he gets in power and he starts changing all the rules.

And he's you know, there will not be the fight anymore. I'm just the king and the whole thing. Right. And then what happens is they have the big epic fight at the end in the Martin Luther King side wins. And then there's the morality tale at the end that tells why. So I actually think it was a movie that's an allegory that repudiates radicalism in favor of Martin Luther King's.

Message and the woke people went nuts for it. Did you find the quote, the full quote? I checked with black pants. Oh, sorry. It's a good movie. I enjoyed it there. The part with a car, I love that. There it is.

But in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor I'm not even allowed to say that in this context has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. It has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality and humanity.

And so, in a real sense, our nation summers of riots are caused by our nation's winters' of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention. That's where it gets interesting.

See, I actually agree with that. One of the things I've been saying is for all along is that I'm actually against the social justice movement, the WOAK Social Justice Movement, which is formerly in the literature called critical social justice. I'm against that because I am for social justice, actual actual social justice.

If you want to solve those problems that he's talking about, you actually have to understand them. You don't put wallpaper over the whole right. You actually have to understand them. And if you just wallpaper over it, that's the delay, right?

Yes.

And so you have to understand, like, what are the actual things contributing to these problems, creating these problems? I don't know what the answers are. I don't know what's causing them. Maybe some of it is prejudice, some of it's discrimination, some of it's cultural discrimination, like not valuing each culture, the, you know, cultural values the same way or whatever.

It's also the echoes of the suppressive past.

I mean, how there's that. Yeah, definitely to you don't just come back from that.

Right. But it was the most I mean, slavery, the slavery slavery took place 150 years ago. Right.

That well, even more recently, you know, that they're not wrong to bring up things like redlining and white flight and all these things that economically dispossessed that's within living memory.

Right. That's I mean, like Grand Pappy's and stuff. Ah, yes, that's them. Yes.

You know, so the wealth, when they make the argument about accumulated wealth, what the average accumulated wealth of a white family versus the average wealth of a black family, there's something there.

Right. We should expect that there's something there and we should be trying to understand that and then trying to figure out actual solutions to those problems.

Right.

But like when you take the analysis, say, of the guy who started critical race series names, Derrick Bell, first African-American tenured professor at Harvard, Harvard Law, real pessimistic guy. He actually said that the point he said that Brown versus Board of Education, which desegregated schools, was done so that white people could feel better about themselves and then to open up black people to new problems, like having to face discrimination at schools like real pessimistic. But in 1992.

OK, get your head on 1990 to 1992, he wrote a book called Faces at the Bottom of the Well.

What he said is that black society is the faces, the bottom of the well and whites, even though he says writing the first page, even the poorest, most, you know, downtrodden, awful situation, white person always knows that they can have status by looking down at the face of the well, OK, I was in 1992, I had like I was impoverishing my parents with Michael Jordan.

Yea, right. I'm not looking down to Michael Jordan in 1992. Oprah Winfrey, Fresh Prince of Bel Air, these were like the things, right, Dave Chappelle is even doing.

They're outliers in a sense. If you look at the way the well of culture treats black people in general as an idea.

But that's not what he said.

Right. He said that all of black society is the face at the bottom of the well.

But he doesn't mean like, no, no, no, no leaders in the time that that's how they get you. They do mean what they say. I have to take after reading this stuff for so many years. I have to take them at their word. And the game that they play is to play off of your they can't really mean that instinct.

Hmm. Derrick Bell held the position that that desegregating the schools was bad because it just allowed racism to maintain in another direction.

Derrick Bell introduced a concept called Interest Convergence that says that any time white and any time black people get more rights, it was because it was also in the interest of white people.

So it was actually an act of racism. So if you become anti-racist, this is literal. If you become anti-racist, there's books about this, you become anti racist according to their demands for you to become anti racist.

That was in your best interest to turn you into a good white, a good white progressive or good white liberal. There are entire books. There's a book by Shannon Sullivan, a major scholar called Good White People to just rales on this. Robin D'Angelo says that she thinks that the white progressives and white liberals are the worst form of holding white supremacy, the worst form, because they and then she because they they don't believe that they're as racist as they actually are.

She says, in fact, that she defines a white progressive as somebody who thinks they're less racist or not racist. And that's the worst kind of white supremacist. So there's no escaping racism in her eyes?

None. It's it's not a choice between anti-racism and racism. It's a choice between. Anti-Racism, it's a choice between racists who will admit it and racists who are too fragile to admit it. That's actually her theory. And then because of this this interest convergence thesis of Derrick Bell, which is at the core of critical race theory to this day, anything a white person does, according to the theory, I don't agree with this.

Anything a white person does to help a black person also raises their own moral standing and is therefore in their own interest and was therefore a racist act.

Whoa, whoa. There's no getting out of that one. So it's like, again, this is supposed to cause healing. This is supposed to solve problems. It says that the problem I mean, Derrick Bell explicitly says and faces upon the well that racism is permanent, that it cannot be fixed.

Oh, so. So what the hell are. I'm an optimist. Why are we doing that? Well, that's just one individual.

Right. But did he have a solution that instead of desegregation to make what was his alternative?

Well, is general alternative was to constantly wage a critical war against white people in whiteness forever until the way that they believe that white supremacy and whiteness can be taken out of society is to completely in a full on revolution.

Remake society from the bottom up that's in their literature all over the place, you can't get rid of whiteness and you get rid of all vestiges of white society. And that level of revolution is what's inspiring these freaking riots.

Do they know about him and his work, or is this just a continuation of the day? The people that are involved in like Antifa? Some of them would. He's quite famous.

All of the scholars would, every critical race scholar would. He's the founder of Critical Race Theory. He is the guy Barack Obama talked very positively about him. I was a big fan of Obama, still am a big fan of Obama.

So I'm not, like, cracking on Obama to say that. But he was a big fan of Derrick Bells.

And they I think maybe even Derrick Bell was one of Obama's teachers, but I don't know that for sure in his law work. So, again, I don't know that for sure. But they were definitely friends and he definitely, you know, very publicly had some weird friends. He was friends at one of those guys that was in the Weathermen.

Well, that's right. Yeah. The that that they're not irrelevant to this either still. Yeah. Yeah. But Derrick Bell is central to critical race there. He's not just some guy. Every scholar would know him. Everybody is like the guy who's taking notes at church. He that person knows Derek. Derek Bell's that big of a figure.

Do you see this moving in any one particular direction? Do you see it, Doug, with the retaking of Chaz, do you see things like dying off? Do you see this as being non sustainable?

I don't think it's sustainable. It takes too much energy. What I think it is. OK, so I've described it before pretty publicly as a Trojan horse. So, you know the story of the Trojan horse. So they wheel up the horse and what's inside is assassins. So they bring it in and they open up from the inside, come out, kill the guards, open the gate, and then the army can come through.

This is a Trojan horse full of bureaucrats. So what they do is they go fill in administrations and then they fill in H.R. departments and then they start making policy changes at those levels so that everybody's stuck playing by the rules. And a lot of cases there aren't necessarily that many of them. And you actually can kind of push them out. It's not that many you could actually and a lot of organizations, you will get sued, they will bring a suit and they'll fire you.

I get these emails from from guys who run businesses.

I don't if their guys actually always some of them aren't.

But the CEOs in particular, and they say, well, a lot of times they're just people in the office and you know how they are. And so they come in and they ask for a promotion and, you know, they're going to make trouble if you don't give it to him.

So it's just easier to give it to him and kind of let them. Do the thing and it's like. We really need to stop getting bullied. Do you think that part of this, the movement and why it's so like within Tifa in particular and the looting and all the craziness in the streets because people aren't working. So it's like so many more people that have the time to lose. And so it really refuels. It's like dry wood on a fire.

That's right. I think that's part of it. I mean, I think the conditions at the moment are particularly good for having manifested this to the level that it manifested in reality.

I'm worried it's going to stoke the fire of racism in a lot of people. I mean, the people that were on the fence, there were racists that maybe, maybe could be coaxed over to a more reasonable position will now be upset.

I think they I think that's right. There's a real fear of it if you just tell people that they're racist no matter what. Yes. Some of them are just going to accept it or there's no way out. No, I will tell you, I am friends with people from all over the spectrum. Right. Except WOAK. They've now all written me off and I have some pretty far right wing friends. They are not racists by any normal definition of the word.

But of course, under WOAK they have to be because everybody is they are saying things like the word racist doesn't mean anything to me anymore, but that doesn't mean I'm going to be racist. I'm going to just keep acting the way that I was acting, which is not racist. But I'm not going to if somebody calls me a racist, it doesn't mean anything to me anymore. I'm just going to keep acting the way I was acting. I already wasn't racist.

I'm just going to keep going. And they're basically going to try to just step out of the language game. I don't think most people will do that. But there will be a contingent and this is where your fears are valid, where that's going to happen. But some of them are going to grab onto that identity and they're going to latch onto it. And, of course, what is what does the theory say? Critical research says that everybody's a racist and is just hiding it under a mask.

And so if they start acting racist, they're oh, they were racist all along. And they do this to people in their jobs.

I know people who disagree with stuff who have applied for jobs and there's these professional forums and then people set it up and they say we're going to you know, he's associated with this or associated with that. So we can't hire and make sure he's not going to get an academic job.

And I've actually seen screenshots. People sent me the texts where the point is that we make sure he can't get an academic job.

So he has to take a job with some right wing outlet. Then we call him a conservative and he's done.

Oh, Jesus Christ. Right.

And it's like at some point you just realize, oh, this is bullshit. And then once you realize this bullshit, you're sort of free of it.

Well, what you realize is it actually is a culture war, correct? I actually it is I don't know. One of my more controversial beliefs right now is that we might actually be in a second civil war already. In the sense, though, that it's being fought in information and in culture, not in not in hot war.

Which one's the union? The liberals not left like left and right, Democrat or Republican, but like the people who believe in like what? The Constitution. And I'm not actual free speech.

Yeah. Free discourse. Correct. Yeah, but there's not that many of them. Or if they are, they're being silent.

The I think there are actually a lot of them and they're being silenced. There's a I think the silence is the right word. They're being silenced. Yeah. They're afraid to speak up. And I know because they email me and tell me things like I have a fake account that I follow you on Twitter or I come and look at your Twitter, but I can't follow you. Yeah, I can't like your stuff.

I get offers to write things sometimes and then they get taken back because I'm like too controversial or something where I get really cynical when I see corporations go WOAK and I'm like, you guys aren't doing this because you're trying to kill people.

You're doing this because this is where the profits where the money is. So now we've found my fourth and fifth Black Lives Matter, right? So I said there are five. Yeah, no. Four is the Antifa is number five is the woak woak black lives matter. Sorry, corporate, corporate black lives matter.

Corporate Black Lives Matter is I mean capitalism always wins.

Yeah. It's a but it's, they're going to go where they see the least liability and where they see the most likelihood to, you know, generate profit.

And they're I can't say, I mean I'm not going to say that I don't support capitalism in general, but I don't support the exploitation of a of a of a movement based in pain and fear to to sell t shirts or shoes or whatever else.

Yeah, that's where it gets really weird.

It's like and again, this is the cynical part of me admittedly, but I and I see what they're doing and I don't believe I don't ever any time a corporation is putting out some sort of a message, I think that they're thinking about their bottom line.

And I think there's a good side to that and a bad side. There's a cynical side and there's also the side. That money is one of those neutral things like Michael Jordan has that that documentary just came out recently about him. And one of the things they show in that is where he got pushed into, you know, some make a statement about something or another. And he quoted, I don't remember the exact quote, but it's like conservatives buy shoes, too.

Yes. So it's like there's an equalizer. People are mad at him. They get really mad at him and they're mad at him again for that. But there's an equalizer there, right? Money doesn't care what color you are. Right. And so there's an equalizer.

Right. But corporations are there to make money.

That's the point. And so they're going to go whichever direction seems to work that way. What I would urge any corporation people out there watching right now to consider is that there will be litigation attempted in the other direction. And you may be opening yourself up to liability in the attempt to avoid liability. So, you know, weigh your options more carefully.

Goddammit, James, God dammit. Is there anything else you want to go over before we get out of here? I think we're at like the three hour mark, are we? What could we say that would like.

Absolutely. And both of our careers. So I think you just said it so we can go like Thelma and Louise into the canyon.

I don't think it's going to end our careers because I think one of the things that it's very important for people like you and people like me now is to be that person who points things out that are logical and reasonable. And when you hear your words, you know, well, you're not a bigot. You're not a racist, you're not a sexist, you're not homophobic. You're not transphobia. You're just a person using logic. And you're standing up to this ideology that seems to avoid any and all criticism.

That's right. And it does so like your religion. That's right. And that's what's dangerous about it, is because we have these religious tendencies. We have these fundamentalist ideological tendencies to adopt a particular pattern of thinking and behavior and to stick with it without deviation, because if you do, you'll be ostracized. And that's what you're seeing with world culture.

That's right. So you know the bringing up religion again in forgiveness, too, right? Yes. You learn from your mistakes. This is horrifying me that teenagers are like calling each other out and like these cancel like whatever the hell they're doing. It's. No, you have to be allowed to make mistakes. You have to be allowed to mess up and grow from that and then be acknowledged for having gone through that and grown. That's so important for people to realize it's key to life.

It's not even just key to society's key to life.

That's a beautiful way to end this. Thank you, sir. And your book, Cynical Theories, is available right now. Helen Clark was the second most English woman's name on planet. The other one is her daughter. Lucy. Lucy, pluck rose. That's yeah. That's that's some seriously Harry Potter type shit. And James Lindsay. That's right there. And you can follow James on Twitter. I highly recommend it. He's one of my best followers.

I appreciate you very much. Thanks. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Goodbye, everybody. Thank you to our sponsors. Thank you. To express VPN, protect your online activity today with the VPN rated number one by CNET and Wired this exclusive link Express VPN dot com Rogan. You can get a you can get an extra three months for free on a one year package that's Express VPN, Dotcom, Rogan Xpress VPN, Dotcom, Rogan Express VPN, Dotcom Slash Rogen.

Go there and learn more.

We're also brought to you by Boutcher Box, but your box makes it easy to get high quality, humanely raised meat delivered straight to your door on ice perfectly frozen at the peak of freshness and butcher box is right now gradually welcoming new customers. But only if you're on the wait list. Reserve your spot today at Butcher Box Dotcom Slash Rogen and you will get an email when they're ready to take your order. That's Boutcher box dot com slash Rogen. Go there and reserve your spot.

We're also brought to you by Trager Grills my absolute all time favorite way to cook. I cook on a trigger grill multiple days a week. They have an amazing application that has 1500 plus recipes. You can control your grill from anywhere and they have these fantastic grills available online or in 10000 plus stores nationwide. Visit Trager Grills Dotcom Joe that's TR AEG E R Ghauri LLC. Trager Grills Dotcom logo.

We're also brought to you by on it and the on it six body weight at home program by one of the baddest motherfuckers in fitness on its chief fitness officer, John Wolf and his group of world class instructors working out from home has never been more convenient. There's no need for any fitness contraptions or purchasing more equipment that you don't have. Just streamed the program from your PlayStation four through the little star app today. Start today, and you could be looking and feeling your best in just six short weeks.

That's on it. Dotcom. Oh, and and I t dotcom and check out they're on it. Six Bodyweight at home workout program. They got a bunch of dope programs, all kinds of cool ones, my friends.

That's it. We did. Thank you. Bye.