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He is absolutely the most dialed in of all the people I've ever talked to that support this very controversial idea of the Carnivore diet of eating only meat.

Well, he has the science to back up these ideas, and he went deep into the weeds. I mean, you're going to have to listen to this one over and over again, take notes. But it's very informative and very interesting. And I think there's some real wisdom in here.

Please welcome Paul Saladino government podcast, The Joe Rogan Experience, trained by Joe Rogan podcast by Night All Day.

OK, we'll just keep going the way we're going. Listen, man, I've been telling everybody that I eat mostly meat and they look at me like I'm going to die. And it's kind of funny. And I've had these conversations with people and they're like, oh, well, if you eat too much, Jamie, we get more water. We'll have one water out here.

I've been telling these people like that I eat only meat and they're like, well, you know, if you eat too much meat, it causes colon cancer. Because this because that and one of the things that I say and as a talking point that I actually stole from you, is that most plants are inedible, but almost all animals are edible. And when you say that to them, they look at you like, oh, shit. Like if you just go out and eat like random plants, you'll get sick as fuck.

That's real.

So, like, when I tell people I eat mostly meat, they look at me like like you're doing something really sweet, like Rob Lowe. Start laughing at me. I said, I have like an animal based diet. You know, some people are plant based animal. I love that word. Yeah.

Animal is just steal what they're saying and make it better. But what you said, what I've heard you say that is that's an accurate way of describing it. Most plants are not edible, but almost every animal is edible.

I mean, and I think that if people spend time in the wilderness, regardless of the latitude, they'll start to appreciate this. Yeah.

And I've mostly spent time in in latitudes that are further from the equator than not. But even at the equator, if you go walking around the woods and or the forest or the jungle there and you try to eat leaves or stems or bark, you're going to die, you're going to die really freaking fast.

Well, how about people who collect mushrooms like they make mistakes? You know, it's so easy.

I remember there was a story about a guy in a nursing home and he went out and picked mushrooms for the people, the nursing home, and cooked them up. And they all died because he fucked up. Probably the older guy couldn't see or maybe just forgot what's edible or maybe he was just losing his mind.

But the point is, most of these things you see are not edible.

And if you think about it from the perspective of a plant, it makes more sense. Yeah, we never do that anthropomorphize and we never think about that. But as I was learning about this and thinking about carnivore diets and animal based diets, I had to learn a lot of stuff myself. I mean, I was trained as a physician. I wasn't trained as an anthropologist, and I took psychology in college. But when you look at like the what we know about the timeline of life on Earth, 500 plus million years of plant and animal coevolution.

And there's a lot of people who have speculated this, that essentially plants evolve, animals evolve, animals start eating plants, plants evolve defenses, animals evolve, defenses against the defenses. And there's a whole series of enzymatic systems in our liver, the phase one and phase two detoxification system, they're called Cytochrome P 450 and other reactionary systems that are delivered that are meant to detoxify things. And a lot of people speculate, and I think this is really reasonable that the majority of the reason we have those is so that we could eat plants from time to time so we didn't starve during our evolution.

But there's a there's a real interesting interaction here. This is warfare.

This is this is an arms race that's 400 million years old between plants and animals. And so what was so interesting for me as I got deeper and deeper into this, this idea around, can humans exist, should humans exist, will humans thrive on a completely animal based diet?

You start to realize, wait a minute, why are we imagining that plants are benign, they're beautiful, they're fun to look at, but they are rooted in the ground. They can't run away from us. What's their defense? Well, if you're on the desert, cacti has got a thorn or a rose has a thorn, a spine. But most of them just have plant defense chemicals. And that's not even conjecture. That's just known botanical science, that plants make chemicals broadly called phyto elections that are meant to dissuade animals, insects, fungi from overconsuming them.

I'm going to affect your thyroid. I'm going to affect your your androgens, your sex hormones or whatever. I'm going to make you have diarrhea or nausea or I'm going to kill you.

And we've just been thinking more plants, more plants, more plants when it's like, wait a minute, why are we eating plants in the first place? Yeah, well, here's here's a question, though, is it good to eat some of them because there's this thing and I know you've discussed this as well, the hermetic response, right, where your body responds to these effects that these plants are producing.

And it actually the response by your body is good. The same way the response from a sauna is good. Your body really doesn't belong in 180 degree temperature. But when you put it on an 80 degree temperature, it develops his heat. Headshot proteins is actually good. It's good for you to do that for short periods of time. Is that possible with plants that maybe some like I know Dr. Rhonda Patrick is really into broccoli sprouts and I think for that very particular reason.

Yeah. So this is really interesting. And if you think about it differently, it starts to make more sense, I believe, or there is a whole different paradigm, whole different lens through which we can view this. So as I was writing my book, I came up with these terms, environmental emesis and molecular premises. I'll grab your book, Molecular Hermès. This is broadly termed Zino. Hammie says by some people, Zino is this Latin term that means alien or foreign.

So when you think about these a lot of in common parlance, people lumped together exercise ketosis sunlight, sauna with plant compounds.

But I think that's that's not accurate. I don't think we should be doing that. I think we have environmental hormesis and molecular hormesis and they are different things. So I won't debate the plants can be beneficial as medicine, but to use them as food presupposes that molecular hormesis is good for us. And I'll tell you why I don't think it is. So when you go in the sauna or when you are in ketosis or when you're in the sun or when you exercise, you do generate reactive oxygen species superoxide radicals and they activate a system in your body called the NRF-2 system.

I can pull up a picture of it in a second and that turns on genes that are involved in the antioxidant response to manage these free radicals.

Life is this elegant dance of electron movement and protons to and other functional groups in chemistry. But the movement of electrons is oxidation and reduction, with the loss of electrons being oxidation, the gain of electrons being reduction. And so when we think about oxidative stress, we're talking about molecules pulling electrons from other molecules, creating free radicals, which is broadly means that there are unpaired electrons.

Now, these are very reactive molecules that can then create things like lippitt peroxides or, you know, free radicals within proteins which change the confirmation of the protein. And we know these can be damaging for humans. One of the reasons that cigarette smoking is bad for us, because it creates a ton of free radicals, lots of oxidative stress, but a little bit of oxidative stress or just the right amount.

The Goldilocks amount is necessary for life. We don't want to get rid of all of the oxidative radicals in our body. They're critical signalling molecules at the level of the mitochondria.

So this whole movement toward antioxidants and more antioxidant, you know, chemicals is eventually if we snuff out all of the oxidative radicals or all the reactive oxygen species, the human body will be dead.

We need these for signaling. So a little bit of oxidative stress is good.

Too much stressful creates problems, not enough stressful creates problems. It's definitely a Goldilocks thing.

So when you are in the sauna or you are in the sunlight or you exercise, you will create oxidative stress that oxidative stress turns on NAFTA. This is essentially a transcription factor. The translator locates to the nucleus, turns on genes involved in the antioxidant response, things like glutathione on Ace, Thigo, Redox. In things like this, they manage those free radicals. And that's just it's kind of clean, right? You have an input to the system.

It turns on a gene molecular Hermès. This is a little different. It's like going to the pharmacy and taking a medicine.

But what we never get with plants is the package insert, quote unquote, that comes with medications in the pharmacy.

If you go to the pharmacy and you get a drug, lisinopril, metoprolol, statin drug, even if you get ibuprofen or naproxen, Aleve at the pharmacy on the bottle, there's a list of all the side effects.

When we use exogenous molecules for humans, we know that they don't really play well with our biochemistry. They're going to do one thing which may be an intended effect, but then they're going to have other effects elsewhere, which could be damaging. And invariably we see this with medications we take. We know that beta blockers can affect glucose tolerance and they can affect sympathetic signalling in the human body with the nervous system. And we know that lisinopril and drugs like this, which affect the kidneys, can have problems with electrolyte balance or other things.

They can affect the lungs because they're affecting the way that angiotensin converting enzyme works and they have side effects. And so my concern is that we're conflating the two and we're forgetting about the side effects that are associated with molecular Prometheus. I think that there certainly are studies with molecules like so graphene, which is this ISIS Cioni compound from Brockley that show that it also triggers and RFQ, it triggers this antioxidant response system.

But what we aren't told about much. The other side effects of so forefend the so-called package insert that so forefend has and when you look at that, there's a large amount of evidence that this whole class of molecules, ASIO scientists, actually have many negative effects on the body.

And when you think about it from a plant's perspective, so forefend is pretty clearly a toxin. It's a booby trap.

So one of the things I like to ask people is how much so forefend is in Brockley seats. And the answer is zero until you chew them. There's no so griffin in broccoli or kale or kohlrabi or any of these brassica vegetables to you chew them. And Ronda's talked about how does that work?

There's a precursor molecule called Glueck or Afnan, which is a glucose scintillate and it's like a booby trap. It's like superglue. You get two things combining to get glue. Caravaning is the precursor molecule. There's an enzyme called moroseness in a separate compartment of the cell. When you chew the cell and you break the cell wall, they combine and then outcome so forefend.

So it's a booby trap. It's like if you're going to eat me, I'm going to make this molecule. It's going to affect you. It's going to be a pro Occident, right. Because if you look at the chemistry of so forefend, it actually is a pro Occident, meaning it's pulling electrons from other molecules. It's not actually coming into our body and acting as an antioxidant. It's turning on our antioxidant defense system. But it's also doing other negative things in the human body.

In the case of ISIL scientists, it's actually been shown to damage DNA, which is a process called class to Genesis, and it inhibits iodine absorption to the level of the thyroid.

This is also purifying, also forefend. Yeah, and there are other molecules like this that are also found in these type of foods. The brassica family of foods, things like Goiran or ALIL, ISI, Koscielny, there are ISI oxygenates. So they're widely known to affect iodine chemistry at the level of the thyroid. If you ever seen people with a big NEC's in Africa like the goiters, there's an endemic goitre.

Get this huge neke that's hypothyroidism because they're consuming lots of foods that have nitrogen that are quite allergenic foods, lots of foods that have similarly ASIO, Cioni compounds that are inhibiting the absorption or at least the the utilization of iodine at the level of the thyroid. So there it's working against the thyroid. So the intent of plants is very clear here. It's saying if you eat too much of me, I'm going to affect your thyroid negatively and that's going to affect every other hormonal system in your body.

So, yes, so forefend can be beneficial because it turns on our antioxidant response system, but it also has many side effects which are ignored. And we see this pattern over and over and over. And this is what was fascinating. We see this pattern over and over and over with plant molecules.

And then if you look at these two people might say, well, is the risk worth the benefit?

And I would argue it's not. Or I would argue the benefit is not worth the risk because you can get your NAFTA system turned on without those molecules, because you can do environmental emesis. You can go in the sauna, you can exercise, you can fast, you can be in ketosis. There's really good studies in cold water. Swimmers in Berlin and there show they show that cold water exposure. So they go and they swim in cold water for like an hour and they'll show that they're glutathione level goes down, meaning that they they're oxidise level of glutathione goes up, the reduced level glutathione goes down.

They're using their endogenous antioxidant molecule, one of them, which is glutathione, to mitigate these newly produced oxidative radicals, these free radicals in the human body produced by cold water swimming.

And then the next day they'll see their growth. Ion is a little bit above normal. That's for me. That's environmental emesis.

So my argument is, can we really say that plant molecules give us a net benefit? I don't think we can. There's lots of interesting studies here that would argue that we don't really get a net benefit from plant molecules. It's kind of a redundant effect. We can get this NRF to Systemis antioxidant response system turned on without them. And then we're getting all of the downstream negative side effects of these plant molecules.

Have there been any independent studies that show people taking like broccoli sprouts and then doing it for a prolonged period of time, measuring their system and then doing environmental promises and seeing if they they measure up?

Well, there's actually studies that show they have two groups of people.

And I can pull these up if you want their studies that compare people that are essentially no vegetables or low fruits and vegetables to high fruits and vegetables and then compare them at four, eight or 12 weeks. And at the end, they see no differences in the oxidative stress markers, the inflammatory markers, markers of DNA damage.

So it's pretty shaky ground to say that invariably all the studies of fruits and vegetables show that they provide this benefit in the short term. So forefend can create more antioxidant response and get more good Ethion. But if you take it out a little bit of time, it doesn't look like there's any difference between people who are eating things like broccoli or Jerusalem, artichokes or carrots or cabbage or any other vegetables compared to a group that eats none of them. So there's these fruit and vegetable intervention studies without any differences between these people.

That's bananas, so all the people that are thinking that they're doing a good thing for their system by taking these vegetables and fruits that have this warm, your body has a traumatic response where you can have the exact same response from cold plunge, from sauna, from exercise.

You're turning on the exact same system in your body. But what about the vitamins that you're getting from plants? Right. There are there are there are essential nutrients and vital nutrients that you get from plants. What about those?

So this is really interesting. When you look into it. There are really this is going to sound extreme when I say it, but I'll back it up. There are no nutrients and plants that you cannot get from animal foods in essentially equivalent or more bioequivalent forms.

How come when, like cats eat an animal, they go for the guts first and they'll actually eat the grass that's in the guts of the cow?

I don't know, guts of a ruminant. I don't know why they would do that. I guess it's fermented. I don't know. Hmm. Because if you look at the nutrients in in animal foods, right. There are many nutrients in animal foods that do not occur and plants and we know this V12, but the list is much bigger. Vitamin K to COLENE, carnitine, carnitine, answering taurine. The list is extremely long, but you can't say the same thing about plants.

There are no nutrients that are current plants that you can't get from animal foods, nut vitamin C, you can definitely get vitamin C from Animal Foods and you get it from what you get from liver, liver, heart, muscle.

It all has vitamin C. So in the 1930s, from 1935 to nineteen 42 or 43, they did a series of studies, I think it was in Sheffield, England.

I got the study I can show you, and they had conscientious objector to the war and they had them take different amounts of vitamin C to see how long it would take to get scurvy. And doses as low as 10 milligrams of vitamin C per day could prevent scurvy.

They experimented with conscientious objection. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's kind of creepy.

Ten milligrams a day. There it is. Yeah.

Ten experience carried on Sheffield on conscientious objectors to military service and just go down to the next page.

Jamie, that's kind of creepy. And you'll see the doses.

But yeah, there was. Ten milligrams of vitamin C will prevent scurvy. Right. But obviously, that's not an optimum level for health. Well, we don't know. No. Yeah, because if you look at the if you look at the the amount of vitamin C, they see, they say there that between the 70 milligram group and the 10 milligram group, there was no difference in clinical outcomes.

The prevailing thinking is a 10 milligrams is not enough for optimal health, but we don't actually know there are roles of vitamin C beyond the formation of collagen, which is the main thing that gets broken when we see scurvy, or at least that's the physical manifestations. You get bleeding gums, your teeth fall out. This is all collagen is tissue. The connective tissue in the human body starts to break down because you can't hydroxyl eight prolene residues on the college and molecule.

But when you look at it beyond that, there's actually some pretty good studies. I'll see if I can find one. Definitely got one in here that shows that if you look at people eating, they did another experiment with excess fruits and vegetables and they had one group that had small amounts of fruits and vegetables.

And now we're going to skip up to 70 milligrams. So it's a little bit more than 10. There's no experiments with like long term ten milligrams of vitamin C per day. But there's an experiment that compares 70 milligrams of vitamin C per day from low fruits and vegetables to two hundred and seventy milligrams of fruits and vegetables, 250 milligrams of vitamin C from fruits and vegetables. And there were no clinical differences in those outcomes in those people. So one group has low fruits and vegetables.

One group has high fruits and vegetables. And how long is the study?

I think it was eight weeks.

Is that long enough to see a detrimental effect or a positive net benefit?

Well, I think that if you're thinking about things in terms of oxidative stress, that happens pretty quickly. You would definitely, I think, begin to see increased DNA damage. We measure it with this marker called eight hydroxy to deoxy Guana, seen lipid peroxides, inflammation. I think you would see it. You start to see it pretty quickly. When you get lower levels of vitamin C, the the higher vitamin C group with more fruits and vegetables certainly had a higher level of vitamin C in their blood, but they didn't have any differences in terms of those markers.

So this one is what about the benefits of vitamin C in fighting of colds and infections?

Right. The so the interventional studies with that have generally failed. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, but the consensus wisdom is that, like, if you have a virus, right, take him out, take vitamin C. Yeah, I'll show you this one. So if you go to the vitamin C folder, Jamie, and then you go to the vitamin C from an evolutionary perspective study.

You'll see a list of all the interventional studies with vitamin C. Scroll down to the. Table two. So one more table down. That one, so you'll see these are interventional studies with vitamin C and there's an asked there for the common cold. It's a meta analysis actually, which eleven thousand three hundred and six participants and there was no effect on the incidence of the common cold. So this gets into the interesting conversation about epidemiology. And I know you know about this the way that epidemiology is so misleading for us.

You know, and if you look at the association of vitamin C in the blood, there's an association with better outcomes.

But when we do interventional studies, we don't see it.

And with in this table, you can see no effect on mortality, no effect on the incidence of the common cold, no effect on cardiovascular events, and essentially no decrease in systolic blood pressure with the intervention.

No effect, no incidences, no effect on the incidence of the common cold. But what about once someone has a cold? I don't like when emergency and all these different vitamin C supplements. This is what they're always claiming. Is that taking it while you have the cold is what's going to reduce the duration of the disease. Concluded that vitamin C supplementation has no effect on the incidence of the common cold. However, a modest reduction of symptoms was consistently found in reviewed studies.

Yeah, so maybe so, so good while you have it. Maybe while you have it. So if you have something then jack up the dose. Yeah, vitamin C is a complex one because there are many things which can lower vitamin C as well, so metabolic dysfunction decreases levels of vitamin C in our body. So the playing field is not always level. Right.

OK, so if you have a cold, your vitamin C level is going to be lower. It could be lower. Right.

Or if you have a baseline of unhealth, something that's been super relevant of the current covid conversation. Yeah. Give you a baseline of ill health or baseline of metabolic dysfunction, sometimes synonymous with insulin resistance per A given vitamin C intake. There's lower levels of vitamin C in the body.

So if you look at animal foods, like if you eat nose to tail, if you're eating a couple of ounces of liver per day and some meat per day in other organs, you can get pretty close to 70 milligrams of vitamin C a day, which is basically the RDA. I think the idea might be 70 or 90 milligrams of vitamin D, this expression nose to tail.

A lot of people don't know what we're talking about. What you're talking about is organ meats. Yeah, yeah. Is eating organ meats because most people, when they think of eating animal products, they think of just eating tissue, muscle tissue.

And, you know, it's so funny. I recently was hanging out with Steve Rinella and he was telling me historically the trapper's like these fur trappers, maybe in hundreds. At some point along the way, we lost this ancestral knowledge that eating organs is so important and that all indigenous cultures do it and they savour the organs really above all other things, and they distribute them among the tribe. And these trappers went out and they started to just not they get hard to get sick from just eating the muscle meat and they had to start incorporating organs in their diet.

It was a historical reference. I'm not sure where he read it. But yeah, if you look at the way that indigenous cultures do this and you look at the way that other animals do this as well, they don't waste anything particularly.

We've talked about it many times. The podcast Wolves, the Alpha Wolf will eat the liver and the other wolves have to stand by. And there's a crazy documentary about a guy who lived with wolves. And one of the ways he tricked these walls into thinking that he was the alpha was he would have an animal and he would put a liver in the animal. So they would bring it carcass and he would be growling at them while he ate the liver.

And they were like, wow, I guess this guy is the fucking boss. He's eating the liver.

If you eat liver, you get to be an alpha male or an alpha female. What was was weird that he knew and that this is just the wolves know in their pack mentality that the alpha is the one that gets the most nutritious piece of the animal.

And there are even organs beyond the liver that are uniquely nutritious. The heart is is prized. I mean, the spleen, the pancreas, these are things we don't eat much as westernised humans. But your kidneys are prized. I mean, so there was this really interesting Arctic explorer, Villamor Stephanson. Have you heard of his adventures in the early 19th? Hundreds. I have, yeah. So he wrote The Fat of the Land, not by bread alone.

And he he had quotes. I think I have a quote from him here in the let's see. I think it's in the anthropology.

So he would say that the actually it's in the nose to tail folder, Jamie, if you're looking for that. There's a screenshot there, so he would say that. While meat of any kind is in great demand, it is interesting to note the following are the favorite cuts, the brisket of the beef with the fat and the cartilages. So these indigenous cultures in the in the Arctic would they would favor things with fat and connective tissue, the skin and subcutaneous fat of the warthog, pigskin, hogshead and brains.

And number four is the liver of any animal. Look at that.

Pigskin is never safe for rawhide and leather. It's too valuable as food and is eaten after singeing off the hair in a prolonged boiling plump cow skin is similarly eaten. A lean calfskin will be saved for rawhide and leather. The hogshead brains and fat are both delicacies, the liver of any animal, the hands and feet of monkey because of the fat content.

So they tend to favor the fat and the organs, rather eat monkey hands.

So we really listen to them and never had ever had brain. I've had calves brain. What do you think? When I was a child, I don't remember. It was a long time ago, but my Uncle Vinny used to. They used to I guess it was calves brain or lamb's brain. I don't remember, but I remember they would grill it and I found it so strange that we're eating it.

I wish I could remember if I liked it or not, but I also like I was probably six, you know, and I don't know if I had a sensibility towards different, you know, interesting. Like, I enjoyed liver. Now I actually like it. I enjoy heart.

I eat it. I like some things that other people. I like sea urchin. I like things that people might find weird because of the texture alone. So I don't know if I felt that way when I was a little it.

Liver is amazing. I know you had the guys from Black Reifel on and they were saying that when they were taken the dessicated organ supplements, they had a rush of energy. But I, I kind of have this thing that I like to do with people where I have them eat raw liver. And it's really cool to see how it turns their brain on the baseline. Nutrition depends. You know, we'll determine how much of a buzz they get.

But of course, there's always an issue with vial, with bile, like we slice the liver and squirt the bile on it.

I haven't I'm hopefully going to hunt this year and I want to do that with the gallbladder.

Yeah, but I, I think that it's so interesting to to see that they would savor the things that were salty.

There was a little bit of salt in the gallbladder and yeah, I've heard of indigenous cultures using the gallbladder as a condiment.

I think Rinella did that on one of the shows where he cut raw liver and ate it with the gallbladder. Yeah, yeah. That's that's got to be a strong flavor. I'll report back.

I've eaten a lot of the animal, but I've never eaten the gall, the gall fluid. So I've never eaten the you know, the Nile.

The Comanche used to love to do that with Buffalo Liver. They would take the buffalo liver raw and warm, right from the fresh kill and squirt gall bladder on it.

Yeah. I mean, it can't be I would say can't be that bad. But then you hear about like the people in Iceland, they eat that pickled shark that Anthony Bourdain told me was the single most disgusting thing he's ever eaten in his life. And they love it. It's like a delicacy.

Well, I've eaten warm liver out of a deer, so I hunted in this this Rinella doing it.

Oh, OK. So he is that's the gallbladder he's cutting open or he's tearing open, I should say. He's taken out. Look at that. All the grass and everything in there. Not crazy. It doesn't look appetizing. Not at all. No, is that what that is right there? I mean, if it was his gallbladder, that's the bile, but what's all that grass? I don't know if it's grass or bile, it could be just.

Yeah, let's give them some volume and all their food goes in your crop, which is a little holding tank. Oh, that's a bird down to the gate. This must be all that turkey edible or glamorizes. OK, helps digest. Oh, it's it gives us all the rock.

Yeah. OK, that makes sense. I've had gizzards from chickens before. You know my family. I'm Italian as you all right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, we eat a lot of gizzards when I was a kid. I don't know why. See if you find the edible organs thing, that's that's wild turkey. See if you can find Rinella eats raw liver with bile. Have you ever had have you had raw liver? I have not.

Joe, we could do it. Yeah, I brought some. He did get it. That's right. Yeah. Let's eat it right here. I'll eat some raw liver. James gonna throw up.

Look at them. He start making noises. He started making noises today. You already had milk. What does that have to do with this. Milk's a bad choice. Joe Milk's a bad choice.

I would grab a piece. Anchorman Yeah. OK, here we go. Well, liver. Liver. What kind of loses its cows liver? This is from grass fed grass finished generally raised cows from white oak pastures in Georgia. It's quite chewy.

So what's supposed to be with the action, it doesn't take much different than Kukla, I think that the in the tribe so there's an interesting tribe in Africa called the new air tribe. And liver is so sacred that they couldn't even touch it with human hands. I don't know how they got it from the animal to people's mouths, but they would they would eat a lot of colors, eat it raw.

They'll just cut it up and eat raw.

I think that the idea is you lose a little bit of nutrients when you cook it, not much, but you lose a little bit. So I've always been fascinated by how many of this is such a nutrient rich organ. How much of it can I actually preserve in terms of nutrients and do I feel differently when I eat it raw? And there's you know, there's a lot of interesting nutrients in liver that aren't well represented in the muscle meat, which we were talking about.

So most meats, a great source of B 12 and zinc and iron and other things. But so in the nose to tail folder, Jamie, there's a graphic from my book that compares with this one Huskisson.

Well, look at that.

Yeah, those Koolhaas cave paintings, those I find that so far I've seen those cave cave art, cave paintings.

Price also added the notion that liver is truly a prize food for indigenous people regarding an African tribe known as the. How do you say that new er new er he stated I learned that they have a belief which to them is their religion, namely that every man and woman has a soul which resides in the liver, and that a man's character and physical growth depends upon how well he feels, feeds that soul by eating the livers of animals. The liver is so sacred that it may not be touched by human hands.

Now, if that's the case, how do explain Bert Krischer?

Because that motherfucker's liver is overworked.

Pickled, even, maybe delicious, maybe. Yeah, he probably has like four gras, right, human fuck.

Yeah, I mean, there's liver livers, totally overfed, completely fatty. That's not what you want. That's not alcohol is not good. Well, no, for guavas probably. I don't know that I'd be excited by eating Fogo. They're like overfeeding the the ducks.

Right. It's so good though. It is. It's so good. It's probably it's a it's a disease and liver. We can. Yeah.

And people are like, well you shouldn't do that. Because the weird thing about it is the ducks go to the feeding pipe, they go to it, they want it to happen, like in our eyes, like this forced feeding is a terrible thing, but they actually gravitate towards that pipe. It's a very quick look.

I'm not in favor of doing weird shit to animals like that. I'm not in favor of giving them food they're not supposed to eat. I'm not in favor of overfeeding more force feeding them.

But I just find it odd that they go to that pipe like there's a. You ever seen how they do it?

I wonder what's in it. I wonder what they feed them.

Pretty sure it's grains. Um, I'm pretty sure that's what I like. See if you can find them. Duck's getting fed grains for Foglia. Yeah.

I wonder if they do anything to the grains to make them overeat it because there are lots of studies in rodents. Sometimes you can use rodents that are genetically predisposed to become obese. But if you alter the food and we know this with humans, you can alter food in some ways to make it more palatable and to kind of short circuit this time.

These ducks are not into it. This guy's grabbing them by the neck. But this is a different set up.

This is this is a handmade one, like our handheld one. And they're just pumping it in there.

The video that I saw like this, these are all being force fed. Yeah. Well, I'm sure it's the way I saw it, it was like there was a pipe in the center of the room. Force feeding ducks at Hudson Valley, fog go up that feeding ducks for Gras because this I think this is probably one where the.

Yes, it's it's weird because you're grabbing the duck, they're not going to be into that no matter what you do. And you're making them open their mouth. It just seems gross, yeah. Here's what's weird about it, is that any grosser than things that are legal, you know, because there's a lot of stuff that's legal that we do to animals, like when do we decide what's legal and what's not legal? Because factory farming should be fucking completely illegal and it's legal in California.

You can get factory fed animals and you could buy them left and right when you can't get as far GWA anymore. And I'm like, well, listen, guys, you got you're not making any sense. Like this is one small moment of this ducks' day where they're feeding them and they're shoving a tube in his mouth and overfeeding them.

The life of a pig that you eat for bacon is a terrible, tortured life. And you're OK with that. You're just not OK with this fucking duck getting extra grain pumped down its mouth. Meanwhile, they're just living a normal life other than that.

And feedlots, I mean, I think I agree with you completely. Factory farming is a scourge and it should I don't know why we keep doing it. I think there's a lot of corn and soy subsidies that are supported by it, and it's really unfortunate. But there's a lot of really interesting discussion about the sustainability of grass fed grass finished meat and this regenerative agriculture concept.

But is it sustainable in that scale, though? Like, could you still have Jack in the box if you had grass fed grass finished me? I think we can both agree that grass fed grass finished meat is healthier to consume.

But the disagreement comes like Bourdain again rest his soul would say he prefers grass grain fed cows because he finds the meat to be more delicious and tender.

He liked it better as a chef.

And, you know, that's that's a culinary choice. Like he as an artist, creating food. He preferred an animal that was, you know, like people like you, you know, they like that kind.

I think that's that's a fucking dying animal, man.

I agree with you there. I mean, if you look at the way that cattle are factory farmed, the reason they have all that intramuscular fat is because they are less metabolically healthy than their grass fed grass finished cohort.

The sustainability or the scalability argument is so important to consider.

So when I think about this, I think about it from a couple of perspectives. There's the land use perspective, but there's also just the actual mathematics of it. That 99 ish percentage of cows that we eat that are grain finished had 85 percent of their life on grass.

They don't they're not raised from calves in the factory farm.

So and then I think, wait a minute, we have we're already raising all of our cattle on grass for 85 percent of their lives. We're just sending them to factory farms at the end. And I think it's a consumer driven thing. It's people who want that type of meat or they're not familiar with the gamey flavor or texture or they want it to be intramuscular fat. They want to have more marbling. And then the other the other aspect is, is the actual land use.

And then when you think about how much land is used to grow corn and soy, and then if we get rid of all the corn and soy that goes to animals and feedlots, we can graze cattle there.

And then there's actually I believe it's called the Conservation Reserve Program.

The federal government pays farmers to let their lands lay fallow for decades.

There's hundreds of thousands of acres in the United States that are not being farmed because they were monarchs dropped to basic they were monarch crops so badly that they had no nutrients.

They can't grow plants on it. So when I think what everyone is missing, well, not the people in the regenerative agriculture space, not you. But I think that the mainstream is missing the fact that in order to regenerate land, in order to make land healthy, you put animals on the land. Right. That's why the centre of the country where there were millions of bison and elk and antelope and deer and Pronghorn had the richest soil anywhere until we dropped it.

Right. And then we deplete the nutrients. It's a net negative. So it's just a sink. We're just pulling nutrients out.

But when you talk to the folks at White Oak pastures in Georgia or other regenerative farms and you look at the soil, it's incredible that when animals live on the soil in an ecosystem, it puts nutrients back into the soil.

The soil is like the color of coffee grounds. Right.

So I was in Georgia recently at Bluffton and White Oak doing photographs for a cookbook and writing. And Will Harris, who's a colleague of Joel Salatin. I know you've had Joel in the. Yes, yeah. Love him. Yeah. And so Will has a two jars in his in one of the churches on his property in Bluffton. And one jar is soil from his farm. And it's the color coffee grounds. It's like five percent soil carbon. The other jar is from 25 yards away on his neighbor's pasture.

Growing cotton or soy.

It's it's, it's like it's like the color of this wood table. It's a light brown. They're completely different. And if you look at the soil content of carbon, it's point five percent. So you have 10x the amount of carbon in the soil when it's farmed or generativity. They've been doing repetitive agriculture there for twenty years.

And you can see this steady increase in the amount of soil carbon. I'll pull it up.

There's a graphic from this in my book, which is completely makes sense because manure is fertilizer. Animals eat the grass, they make manure, the manure as fertilizer, worms and bugs live under the manure, there's an entire ecosystem that evolves around these animals living the way they've lived for hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years. It makes sense that it all works together synergistically to feed the soil and to provide nutrients for the very animals in those animals will die on that land.

They will rot and they will provide even more fertilizer. And then other animals will live off of them and live in that area. And they, too, will die. And they will shit all over the place and piss all over the place. They will live will feed the soil. And this is a system and we fucked that system up by growing corn. We fucked that system up by growing, you know, a million acres of soybeans or whatever the fuck we do.

Why are we eating those things? Well, it seems like we thought it was a great idea during World War One and World War Two because they needed food. The reason why all this, like subsidies of farmers happened, it's not that, you know, the agriculture business is evil and the government is in bed with them. What happened was during the the first and Second World War, there was a need for surplus food.

There was a need for food because there was back then is a very real concern for supplies, for troops, for supplies for the United States. What I mean, we were at war. I mean, a crazy war that I don't think today in our 2020 version of war, which always happens in some remote, faraway land, and it's always a domination by the United States. I don't think we really understand the desperate and terrifying times when they were, you know, asking people to donate metal and rubber.

I mean, it was it was a crazy time. And the government stepped in and said, we are going to pay farmers to grow corn. We need food. And so they subsidized these farmers to grow all this food. Now it's become a different animal because now they're subsidizing people to grow corn. That is mostly in a lot of like I have a friend who is a farmer and they grow it for livestock.

They have a huge area that they grow corn. And it's all, by the way, Monsanto corn right there spraying that fucking roundup on it, which is, you know, glyphosate is terrible for you. And I had a podcast about that recently about environmental chemicals and how bad they are for you and then how that stuff actually can be in the meat and can in turn get into your system and provide you with all sorts of problems. And this is why there is there's subsidizing of farmers.

I mean, it's also because we need farmers.

We need to keep them healthy. And this is just not the way to do it, though.

This if we could just get people off the tit of corn, get people off the tit of these mono crop, you know, mono crop agriculture, we would be a healthier country if we can have these giant areas where people can grow all kinds of things like like Polly Face Farms, the way Joel Salatin runs things, he moves all of his animals around. He he lets all of his his pigs. They live like wild pigs. They just eat acorns and nuts and all these different things.

He supplements them sometimes and and he has incredible soil like the other farm. You're describing an incredibly healthy animals.

That's the way it should be. Yeah. And I love that you said that. It's just we have this dependence on soy and corn based economies now. And I love that the regenerative agriculture movement is starting and the people are slowly, slowly. There are more farms that are shifting and shifting and shifting. Before the podcast, I was telling you about a ranch in Fredericksburg called Roehm Ranch.

Yes. And they're they're really cool. They have they raise bison.

And if you look at the ground, so when I was out at Rome, I stood like a couple of feet from a buffalo or a bison. I don't know which.

Is there a fence in between you and the bison? Why are you doing that, man? As you watch videos? It was fun to watch YouTube. It was just this was a universal moment. Well, this is a great video of a bison charging another bison and launching it into the air.

Think about how what is a bison weigh like two thousand pound. It was intense. It was just kind of like this.

We had this bucket that those are amazing and a beautiful animals. They're so amazing. And if you look at the ground at Roehm Ranch, this is Frederiksberg, Texas. This is land that was mono crop. I believe this is land that used to be fertile in southern Texas that was destroyed. OK, and then actually, you know, they're starting to regenerate it. They've been regenerative, I think, for three or five years, and they start to get more grass growing on a piece of soil.

So if you look at a square foot, hold up, scroll that down there, the hunt. How are you gonna that somebody stand right next to they have access out there?

Oh, OK. That's a different. Yeah, yeah. They will not let you stand next to them.

They will let you stand next year. Oh they won't let you stand off the axe but you can sit next to the. No listen I'm saying to access deer.

No. Not let you stand. That's also they have access to your hunters there. Yeah. And so this is only like an hour plus from here. Yeah. Yeah. Oh they have archery hunts.

There are two absolutely hollow. Yeah. It's a great spot.

Mhm. But if you look at the ground. You look at a square foot of the ground at Rome Ranch, you can see that on the pastures that the bison are in, maybe only 30 or 40 percent of that earth is growing grass. But you know that in the future, if you, you know, move it out 20 years like like white oak pastures has done. When I was in Georgia, every inch, every millimeter of that ground is growing grass.

It's like thick grass. Right.

And that's feeding the cattle in a much more rich way. And so that's what we're doing in agriculture is about we should go there.

We should go there, and we should make a video. We should of us go in there and talk to them about throw it up on YouTube. I think that would be really interesting. I'd love to agree. I'm not going to get near the fucking bison, though. You might. I'm going to learn my lesson from other people.

Well, we go out there with like we go out there with Katie and Taylor, who who own the farm and take care of it. And there's people out there who you work with, the bison, and they know which animals are more.

Yeah. See, that's aggressive. I call that man. What if you make a mistake? Oh, I thought it was Mike. That's Bill. Bill's crazy. Don't go near Bill. The head of the buffalo, the head of the bison was the size of my horse.

It was moving, man. I was like, wow.

I like experiences that make me feel small.

Yeah, well, that will do it, man. You know, backcountry skiing or being on the Pacific Crest Trail or any of the stuff.

This whole area used to be overrun with bison, which is really crazy. I mean, this is where the Comanche lived and that was their primary food. Yeah. The Comanche were an animal based culture, which is really interesting.

That book, Empire of the Summer Moon, right? Yes. Yes. Fantastic book.

But they they really didn't eat much else. They did a little bit of berries here and there, but most of what their diet was, was meat. And that they also had there was a benefit to that in terms of the way they travel because they could go without food longer than people that were mostly carbohydrate based. The carbohydrate based guys like the soldiers would crash and the Comanches could keep going because their body would just go into ketosis. They would live off fat.

It was a natural like shift back and forth between eating meat and eating fat and eating organs to not eating for a while.

And so few humans in 2020 have gone for more than 18 hours without eating food. Yeah, very few of us in how many decades we've lived or have utilized the fat burning systems in our body. You know, you can use glucose or fructose or sugars, you can use carbohydrates and you can do glycolysis.

But there's a whole other system where you can either use fat that's coming in or use fat from your body in beta oxidation and ketones move the you know, the fat basically precursor molecules are on your body. And when we get adapted to that, we have this extra and we have two engines.

We're both hybrid and gas. But if we go long enough without ever using the hybrid, you know, fat burning engine, we kind of lose it. But you can get it back pretty quickly.

It's kind of interesting today that there are a lot of people that are interested in intermittent fasting or, you know, having a very specific feeding window and they are seeing benefits of that. And I was reading some article recently that was saying there's it's a study shows that there's no weight loss benefit to intermittent fasting.

And I'm like, who made that fucking study and who were you studying and how is that everybody that I know that's done and has lost weight? Like, what are you talking about? Like how what is that study about? And who why would someone be even interested in promoting that?

So much of what gets done in the nutrition community in research is Buckcherry.

Yeah, a lot of fucking it isn't. And the devil's in the details. Right. Um, what were they feeding them? What was the ratio of oils in the food. What what were they doing. Finnerman fasting. Were they intermittent fasting with junk food. Were they intermittent fasting with standard American diet food? I think it's pretty clear there's a lot of compelling data in both, at least in animal models.

And I believe in human models, too, that having a feeding window and having time when your body shifts from, quote, carbohydrate burning or using the glycogen stored in your liver to making ketones, even on a daily basis, that cycling is beneficial for humans, you're flipping back and forth between anabolic and catabolic pathways.

At a broad level. You're looking at systems like mTOR, the mammalian target of rapamycin kinase there. They're balancing systems. This is a I mean, they're kind of the seesaw. And we know that when you have kind of set a very broad level, when you have more of this ketogenic physiology, when you when you exhaust the glycogen in your liver, you turn on these autophagy mechanisms, you do the cellular housecleaning, and that's beneficial for humans. Our ancestors would certainly have done so.

Please explain that to people. The cellular housecleaning, the that your body actually does get rid of some damage cells, damage cells and damaged proteins within cells and damaged mitochondria.

So within the cell, there are these powerhouse factories which are probably ancient bacteria. You know, billions of years ago that combined with a single celled organism and we became eukaryotic with a membrane bound nucleus and a membrane bound organelles called mitochondria, which produces ATP for the body. And so within the body, there are all these organelles within ourselves and some of them that. The job of that organelle is to basically be the trash compactor, old proteins are Ubiquiti aided in their move to organ, to the organelles that recycle them.

And so you do this cellular housecleaning. But and it seems to happen more when you're in this state of ketosis or when you're not using the glucose from or when you're not in sort of an antibiotic physiology.

And so you can see that with our ancestral their ancestors, we would have switched back and forth.

We would have been successful and hunts every day. We would have had some hunts that were successful in some gathering sessions which were successful and others which weren't.

And when they're not successful, you're you're fasting. And so that's a that's a beneficial thing. I mean, I think that that that intermittent cellular housecleaning is an ancestral pattern that we would do well to to espouse, to mirror.

So your body doesn't have any food to digest. So it's like, let's do some cleaning up. We got a bunch of junk laying around the attic. Let's sweep it up. But if we're doing the standard American thing, which is to eat constantly and snack throughout the day and then can't wait to have dinner and then can we have breakfast and can we have lunch, and your body never really gets a break. It's always digesting. It's always digesting.

I mean, it would be so interesting to look at the the Western population of the American population and see how many of them actually exhaust liver glycogen overnight, how many people actually wake up with ketones in their blood? I think it would be a fraction.

I think the majority of people never get rid of their liver glycogen never actually flip.

And to be fair, I.

I actually don't think we should always be in ketosis either. I think that that can present some challenges to the human physiology and that intermittent, you know, inclusion of carbohydrates can be beneficial for humans. And this is a cycle. It's a circle like many things are in our life and our ancestors, in spite of the fact that they favor meat and organs, they certainly would have had carbohydrate from time to time when they were available. So that's just this balance.

I think that personally, when the people I've worked with and in the reading that I've done everything I've learned, it's it works better to be sickler ketosis rather than persistent ketosis all the time. Though ketogenic physiology, I think is intrinsic to humans. It's beneficial, super healthy, and a lot of people find massive benefits from it.

Well, ketosis, particularly for people that have epilepsy or and for seals that work on those rebreather, you know, they found that being in ketosis can keep them from having seizures. Yeah.

Which is really kind of fascinating. It changes the neurophysiology. Yeah. Yeah. Well, for children, children that have epilepsy, they found a great benefit in being ketosis. It just makes sense that your body would fare best on the things that it evolved with.

The things that it evolved with are mostly animals, fish and fruits.

I agree with you, whatever you can.

You know, obviously you don't get fruit all year round. You get it a specific time when the fruit falls from the tree. But animals were available 365 days a year and that's most likely what a lot of people eat.

And if you look at Hunter-Gatherer tribes, that's what we see there. And it's so interesting to me that they have a preference for animal foods. Yeah, a lot of them will eat tubers occasionally. There's actually a pretty cool study. I think you'll find it in the anthropology folder Jamy or that's termed HODs of Fall-back Foods. It's the fourth one there.

And this is such a cool study. I really want to go spend time with the Hadza next time David Cho did.

I heard him on the podcast.

That is one of the most intense things that I've ever heard described on the podcast when he's talking about them hunting baboons because the area where they live has been so depleted of game, they're reduced to baboon hunting, you know?

And he was like, it's really crazy and really dark when, you know, you see a baboon got hit by an arrow and they grab the arrow, like with their hands, like, yikes.

That that story was poignant for sure. When that's too deep for me, it was intense. But what I heard that conversation with David show, a couple of things stood out for me.

And one of them was that when he asked them what was the best day of your life, they all the people he asked said it was the day that I killed the biggest animal and fed the tribe. Yes. It wasn't the day that I found this huge patch berries or I got a dug the biggest tuber. Right.

It was the day that I killed the biggest animal and fed the tribe. And the other thing that they communicated to him was that the animals that they hunt now are different, that they can't hunt the same animals, which is probably changed their food patterns in modern day. Yeah. And that he even said this on the podcast that they were sort of describing him. There used to be big animals everywhere. And you can imagine what it was like for the Comanche as they came to the plains and they were herds of thousands of buffalo.

Yeah, like there is no scarcity of food. There is a ton of big animals.

And these animals are not even big relative to what might have been here when they were megafauna, you know, tens of thousands of years ago. But you just think about the way that currently living hunter gatherers might have changed their their. Foodstuffs to survive, and if you had woolly mammoth all the time, man, I think you're probably gonna eat some honey if you can find it. But honey and woolly mammoth, it's like a good diet to me.

I mean, that's a huge smorgasbord.

I want to get into the honey thing, but I also want to talk about what is what is it called? I always screw up the word. Is it glucose genesis? Like what is it called when your body converts protein into glycogen, glucose, neo genesis.

Gilgo angiogenesis.

OK, so that is what occurs. If you just eat nothing but meat, you will develop some glucose.

You have to you have to be in ketosis.

Your body will do gluconate agenesis and your body does this without you don't need any carbohydrates, you don't need any carbohydrates to do it.

It will use there are certain amino acids that are glucose allergenic. The backbone of a fat molecule is glycerol. That's gluten allergenic lactate there acetate. There are other molecules that can make glucose.

We have a backup system to make glucose because there are tissues in the body that require glucose.

And this is why if you eat only meat, you will get knocked out of ketosis if you have too much protein.

Yeah, which may not necessarily be a bad thing. It's just it's human physiology.

It's pretty fascinating, though, that your body has it knows how to do that. It doesn't convert it. Yeah. Yeah.

Because you you would die otherwise. Yeah. If we didn't make glucose from protein and glycerol backbones and other substrate we would die.

We need glucose. One of the things that I found when I did a total animal diet for a month is my energy level was really sustained throughout the day.

It was very even and I found it to be very unusual, like there was no difference between me at 11 a.m. versus me at seven p.m. It was a flat line throughout the day. And I cannot say that about any other diet that I've ever been on. There's been these ups and downs, and especially when I'm eating just normal, whatever, whatever I feel like eating cheeseburger, have a bowl, spaghetti, whatever I'm thinking about, you know, whatever I feel like eating when I do that, there's horrible crashes like and the way I feel after meals is so different where I feel after meals.

When I was on the Carnivore diet, which again, admittedly I only did really strictly for a month, like now I'm on the Carnivore diet until I go out to dinner and then I eat whatever the fuck I want.

Like last night I had sushi, but for the most part during that month I had like, real amazing energy and a lot of clarity. And I felt extra aggressive, which was weird. And I don't know if that was just because I felt better. And that's just my nature when I'm not tired but not aggressive in a bad way, but aggressive like I was quicker to, like, mock what fact that I was I had more energy and it was more fun to make fun of things, too.

I had more energy to exercise. I had more more ambition to do things. It was very weird. And I was thinking like there's without a doubt some sort of physiological change to my body that's that's happening while I'm on this. And I lost a lot of weight to a lost twelve pounds in a month, which I thought was pretty extraordinary.

That's a that's a very large amount of weight in a month. And I heard you also say your vitiligo got better. Yes, it did.

That is a mate that's really started filling in, which is really strange because I first got interested in the Kanwar diet because of autoimmunity and and the way that just the hypothesis could some of these plant toxins that we were kind of talking about earlier, could these be triggering immunologic reactions in humans?

And we know they do. Gluten is a plant lectern and certainly Trivers and immunologic reaction in the small intestine. Could that model be at play on a bigger scale for people with vitiligo? I had eczema and asthma, which is an autoimmune condition. What about autoimmune thyroid disease? What about psychiatric illness, which I believe is autoimmune as well?

I think there's probably quite a few of them that are. Now, when you said you had eczema and asthma, was that cured with the Carnivore diet or is it in remission?

Like, I think that's the syntax, right. Course. So I have not had any Flair's of eczema since I've been eating a carnivore or Carnivore ish diet for the last two years, except one time when I reincorporated some plants back in my diet and experiment with squash. So I'll get eczema unlike my wrists. So you got to just from taking squash.

Yeah, the squash.

And it kicked it back in, it kicked it back and you had nothing for two years and then you have squash and then it kicks in. It had a little bit of eczema on my lower back and then you stopped eating.

Squash goes away. Yeah. Wow.

And there are I mean squash is one of the foods that I would think is fairly ancestrally consistent and fairly less offensive to humans, because in the book I don't the book is not meant to convince everyone to stop eating all plants.

The book is really meant to do a couple of things. It's meant to help people understand that animal meat and organs are the foods that we've been eating throughout our evolution there, wrongly vilified today. And we can talk about why the epidemiology and they should be a part of any they're an integral part of any healthy human diet. And then I created a kind of special. From a plant toxicity, thinking about Hunter-Gatherer tribes and which parts of plants they favor and which parts of plants they discard, and then thirdly, I think it's important to understand what we talked about, processed vegetable oils and processed sugars, hugely bad for humans.

But I'm really interested in Carnivore and Carnivore ish type diets so that it can the most number of people can benefit.

Now, what about fruit? What when you say you eat a Carnivore ish diet? I know you incorporate honey, but do you eat any fruit?

I've experimented with it and I saw for about a year and three quarters I had just meat and organs and fat and I was in ketosis all the time, depending on how much protein I had.

And then I had some thoughts about what is what is my blood sugar look like when I do this. I got a CGM. I got one of these continuous glucose monitors and I started I started incorporating carbohydrates first as an experiment.

And what I noticed was that with sort of these less toxic carbohydrates or what what I think of as more ancestrally consistent sources of carbohydrates, I felt even better. The eczema didn't come back with honey. I had occasional fruit. I found that I couldn't overeat fruit. I couldn't if I ate too much fruit, I felt bloated and kind of just party and didn't feel good. Fruit seems to have this built-In mechanism where we can only eat so much of it, honey, is, you know, I can eat a moderate amount and feel just fine.

But the inclusion of those carbohydrates actually made me feel a little better. Slept a little better with long term ketosis for myself. And what I've observed for some people, perhaps not all with long term ketosis electrolyte deficiencies. A lot of times develop. People get cramps, they get palpitations. And we know that when ketogenic physiology happens, our body partitions, electrolytes differently, sodium, you know, sodium, retention in the kidneys different. And then when sodium becomes a little bit funky, our body weight, a little magnesium and potassium.

And so that started to kind of make sense to me. I thought, oh, maybe it doesn't have to be as dogmatic as full meat and organs. Maybe we can, you know, maybe more people would benefit if we think about this more like our ancestors.

Right. More like the Hadza eating berries or Bobe or baobab. And then honey, occasionally. And you can always look at your blood sugar with a CGM or other metrics. What was fascinating, and I actually have my all my blood work, if you want to see it, or any of my continuous glucose monitor readings. But you can see this is all in the lab work or the blood work folder, Jamie.

And they're at the bottom. There's those three images of my blood sugar and there's a few other ones. But you can see that with with honey and and meat and organs don't really have much of a change in the blood sugar at all. It's pretty, pretty mild most of the time, and it stays very consistent.

Honey has a lot of really unique properties to it. Yeah, there's there's a certain honey, I want to say it's from New Zealand. My wife was just talking to me about the Enuka. Yes.

That actually helps people heal better. I think a lot of honeys do that, actually.

Now Manuka has a very good publicist. I haven't seen it. I think it might, I think super expensive. Yeah.

I think a lot of honeys can help with that. But if you look at the literature on honey, there's studies.

So when I first thought about honey, I thought this is going to cause dental cavities. And I'm good friends with a periodontist, incidentally, a periodontist who has an advanced leukemia, who's on a carnivore diet and doing really well. But he was pointing me to a bunch of evidence that honey's been used to treat oral candida to treat it actually can have activity against Karijini bacteria in the mouth. These are to treat oral mucositis. It's incredible. These compounds in honey look very different.

And the associations that we have with sugar and periodontal disease is really just processed. Sugar probably. Mhm.

Yeah. There might be something different about honey. And then if you look in rats again, we're moving to an animal model. When you give rats a lot of fructose, they don't do good. Right. Rats have, nor do we know how to humans nor to humans but moderate amounts.

Humans seem to do OK with like fruit amounts but massive amounts and rats or moderate amounts. And rats do don't do well because rats do their biochemistry a little differently. They convert fructose to fat.

And do they give it to them in fructose corn syrup or do they give it to them and it's in their fusional fruit. It's in their feed. So they they add to the feed, they add fructose and I think might actually be sucrose as glucose and fructose.

Yeah. Which is essentially the same as high fructose corn syrup. But it has to do with what the ratios are of the glucose in the fructose.

And if you look at rats given honey versus rats given sugar, they have different outcomes.

Really. Yeah. Yeah. That's in the honey folder Jamy the honey rats protective.

So there's something about the consumption of honey that's actually net beneficial.

Well, it seems to mitigate the oxidative stress. So if you look at the bottom there, see where it says compared with those fat fructose. Yeah. Interesting. Well, it tastes good, too, honey, is delicious, it doesn't taste like you're doing anything wrong, like when I eat a piece of chocolate cake, it tastes great. It tastes like I'm fucking up, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. I don't know if that's psychological or what, but when I have honey with my tea, like, it's delicious and it feels like I crave it, like I'm enjoying it, like it's doing something for me, I like it.

Hopefully in the future when I get to go spend time with the Hadza, I'll be able to eat it in the combe like they do. But in the in the anthropology folder, Jamie, there's a study that HODs, a fallback foods the Hadza, both the men and the women in the Hadza tribe. Right. Honey is their favorite food. And the men say meat is their second. The women say meat, baobab and berries are all. So if you go down to the third or the fourth page, you'll see this graphic.

Bob Baobab. And what is that, Bobbie? Bobbie. So you see, that's the the black bar is how many people like Honey, right? And the next bar is meat and then baobab berries and tubers.

So both males and females, they don't they don't really like tubers a whole lot.

They'll dig them as a fallback food. And actually the title of this paper is Hodda Fall-back Foods.

But at the end of the paper, they say there's a subserve behavior, that if there's a lot of meat in the camp, the women will stop digging tubers for two to three days. Baobab is this tree in Tanzania that has this fruit. I've never had it, but it has this kind of dry this dry fruit pulp on the outside of the seeds. Maybe you can find a picture of Baobab Jamy, but yeah, that's interesting stuff. But they all love honey in the hands of tribe and the.

That's it. Wow.

Yeah. It's a really cool country. Freaky tree. If I saw that. I believe that's a trap. That's not a real true that one in the upper left hand corner that looks really different.

I'd be like, dude, that is not a tree. Some there's someone in there they're going to grab you when you walk.

But it almost looks like the tree from the tree in The Princess Bride. Yes. Look at this guy. He's climbing into a hole and the had to have this special axe they use. And if they if they see.

Wow, those are crazy. Yeah. Let's see, where does tree look? It's for folks that are just listening. They're really fat and wide.

And then the top of these tiny little branches, Jamie, go to the left side, the left, the other images that you were looking at go drop down into the lower right hand corner.

That one, the bulbous one, looks like an onion. Look at that thing. That is so crazy.

Amazing. Apparently, this tree is common in the fruit are fairly prevalent.

Hmm. Interesting. Baobab, baobab. I think that's how you pronounce it. But if you look at and if you look at tooth decay in the Hadza, there's some interesting findings. The women actually that are in that eat indigenous ancestrally don't really have significant tooth decay.

The men have higher rates of tooth decay and we don't know whether that's because they're eating more honey or because they also smoke tobacco and marijuana and tobacco and marijuana are certainly associated with dental cavities or periodontitis.

So there's been some concern about that. But at least in myself, I haven't seen anything. And I've actually talked to a number of dentists who have said, no, honey is protective in the mouth, which goes against everything we think. But there are studies that look at the mouth of the mouth. So I'm not a dentist, I'm a medical doctor.

But when I've been educated by dentists, tooth decay appears to happen when the of the mouth drops, when we eat sugar or something that's preventable or in the setting, probably a fat soluble vitamin deficiency, the of the mouth drops and the back, the cardiogenic bacteria are able to thrive. Well, if you look at the picture of the mouth when you eat, honey, it drops and then it rebounds more quickly. So it's interesting. Is there something in the honey that prevents that?

It's certainly an ancestrally consistent food.

If you look at where honey is available in the world, it's eaten everywhere it's available.

It just makes sense. I mean, you see animals eat it, you see bears eat. And, of course, you know, the famous for letting bees bite them while they just sting them while they eat their honey. Yeah.

Um, what what's there's things about high fructose corn syrup that makes it particularly damaging to the body. What are those things?

So fructose and glucose are different molecules and fructose and glucose have different biochemistry in glucose biochemistry. There's a stopgap, there's a rate limiting enzyme called phosphor fractalkine, meaning that if you try and overeat glucose, your body is going to put the brakes on it and not do glycolysis, which is the process by which you turn glucose that you're eating into energy. Right.

There's no brake on fructose.

So fructose bypasses Frostproof fructose kinase and can essentially move down the shared glycolic pathway into the formation of the cholesterol, backbone and triglycerides, which are essentially fats without any without any breaks. So the problem is not high fructose corn syrup itself. It's that you can eat it in without without stopping. Right. That you can get massive amounts of it and they're calorically bereft.

So if you were to eat, if you if I were to give you if you look at Isaw caloric studies of fructose.

There's no evidence that they that fructose increases uric acid or blood pressure or waking isso caloric, but when anything with high fructose corn syrup is going to be so enticing, is going to short-circuit your satiety mechanisms so much that you're just going to overeat it in a way that fruit doesn't do right.

Like we said, fruit has this stopgap. It kind of has this brake on it. You're like, oh, I can't eat any more fruit.

That's another thing that I noticed about doing the Carnivore diet for that one month was that satiety. When you're only eating meat, you don't eat as much.

You just don't I mean, it's it's a you could call it it's not just an elimination diet, but it is it's in many ways it's you're reducing calories just because you're just not as hungry and you eat to satisfaction.

But overall, the calorie consumption is much less than if you were eating it along with, like macaroni and cheese or, you know, creamed corn or bread or all these other things you would keep eating.

Like if you have a steak and you only eat this eight ounce rib eye, you will you're only going to eat a certain amount.

I mean, maybe eat the whole thing, but maybe you'll get like three hours away and you'll be like, I'm good. But if you've got mashed potatoes and gravy and bread, you'll just keep fucking eating. And it's weird. It's weird. Your body just wants to stuff more stuff into your mouth.

There are different satiety mechanisms, I think, happening at the level of the hypothalamus in the brain when you're just eating protein and fat versus protein and fat and carbohydrates and there's nuance there as well.

I, I there's some really interesting evidence that polyunsaturated fatty acids probably hijacked the satiety mechanisms as well. And that linoleic acid specifically and other omega six can have negative consequences, the level of the brain. And you don't get that satiety response to turn off. But yeah, I agree with you every once in a while on strict Kanwar diets, people can't eat enough because of this.

Yeah. And they eat and they do benefit from including some carbohydrates in their diet. And I think, you know, our ancestors have done that occasionally.

But again, I do think that for humans to thrive, we should not fear meat and organs. And you make that the center of your diet.

And like you're saying, I think that there is a benefit to a carnival diet, just like you.

How many people are going to eat just meat and organs for their whole life? Some devoted few. And there are definitely going to benefit. But I think that the number is 10 to 20 to 100 acts who might benefit from understanding that meat and organs are valuable, incorrectly vilified, and that there's a spectrum of plant toxicity. And that expands it. Because when I tell people that I eat meat and organs and fat, they look at me really funny.

But if I tell them that occasionally I eat a lot of Choteau or some raspberries or some blueberries or some honey there eyes, kind of the gears start turning, they're like, maybe I could do that.

And it starts to look like.

I would say a reimagined version of a Paleolithic diet, because that's what we're essentially asking, what is the species appropriate human diet? What is the genetic congruence between our environment and our genetics in twenty? I believe we're really still programmed to eat like our ancestors and that we still thrive doing this.

But it can be a little bit more broad for people than just a strict carnivore diet for those that will well espouse that.

You know, if I say, hey, what about avocado? So in the book in Chapter 12, I talk about this spectrum of plant toxicity.

And if you think about it from a plant perspective, there are parts of a plant that it wants you to eat, usually like the fruit and a lot of parts of the plant that it doesn't want you to eat and it doesn't want you to eat its leaves. Why would you want to eat? It leaves. It doesn't want you to eat it. Seeds. Those are the reproductive parts of a plant. Right?

So like you chew the seeds, that's where those you were talking about these negative compounds that only happen when you chew certain things like apple seeds, apple seeds have a Migdal in it's a cyanogen glik aside.

And yes, you can. There's enough. It actually can release cyanide moiety in the human body.

It's frankly, toxic apples do not want you to eat the seed, but they don't mind if you swallow them and ship them out, shoot them out in a nice pile of fertilizer.

Right. Which is how they wind up growing, how they grow.

And it's the same with all the stone fruits, all the stone fruits, peaches, plums, even almonds. They have this cyanogen like a side amygdale and they're toxic like apricot kernels. The FDA, I think, had to step in or the USDA had to step in and have manufacturers remove apricot kernels from trimmings.

There was a big there's a big fervor about the Hunza a couple of years ago, maybe a decade ago. And there was this this widely promulgated false notion that they were having this longevity benefit from this amygdale in in the apricot kernels. And it was really potentially dangerous for humans.

So they ended up with these apricot kernels, the apricot seed in trail mix and the USDA, the FDA, to step in and say, no, no, no, you can't do that.

That has a toxic compound and almonds were very toxic and we kind of bred it out of them.

So a lot of the foods we eat today are sort of we're stripping the toxins away from the plants. But the intentions were clear.

It was one of those goofy vegan doctors who looks like shit was on this podcast. And he was talking about how he got really, really sick because he picked these berries.

Elderberry. Yes, I've seen the video. Yes. Elderberries, completely toxic. Raw. How the fuck are you giving nutrition advice when you don't even know that this is a toxic berry?

And so some berries are toxic. But if you think about fruit, more fruit is edible than not. Right. But yeah, I thought that was hilarious video he's talking about. He's talking about drooling and I want to mention his name.

I'm sure he's a nice person and I think he's doing he's trying to do well. I think he's just trapped in an ideological paradigm. He's like in this he's locked into this world and applauded and that's where he gets his love from. And if you leave that world by God, I've seen people do it and they get attacked in the most vicious and horrific ways when their body is falling apart and they incorporate salmon and also they start getting erections and they start feeling better, people will attack them.

It's like it.

I understand where these people are coming from in terms of them not wanting to do harm. I understand it. I see their perspective. But the vicious ways they attack people that leave that that I'm going to call it a cult because it's kind of like a cult. It's a dietary choice. It's a lifestyle choice. But it's very it's it's an ideology as well.

There's there's parts to it. It's a meme. That poor guy looks like dog shit. He looks so bad. And for him to be espousing this as a method of achieving health and wellness, you know, like, come on, man, do you have a fucking mirror in your house?

I want to do, like, bloated. It's like crazy. It's crazy. Just barrel chest.

He's no muscle at all. Is like sarcopenia arms.

His neck is barely holding his head up. It's so strange. It's like, my God. And there are very healthy vegans by the way.

I mean the ones that do it right. Like my friend Rick Roll. He looks fantastic. He's great. He runs ultramarathons. I have friends that are athletes that are vegans. They figure out how to do it right.

I think some people can pull it off, but some people that are like in the community that are giving advice, like they look like shit, looking horribly with the people, with the vegans that are thriving.

I always wonder how good would you be if you ate meat?

I know. Well, maybe not. I'm wonder. I mean, I think that there are some people whose ancestors developed in certain parts of the world where maybe meat was scarce. I mean, this is a hypothesis. It's just a theory. But I think that it's very likely that there are places that are rich in edible plants and not very rich in wildlife.

It's possible.

So the story that I hear and I've done a podcast with Rich, I'm not friends with them, but I did a podcast on The Minimalists where we had like kind of a friendly debate. How did you guys. Did not go. I didn't listen to that. It was pretty good because the guys, the minimalists are so cool and it was very civil, but I wasn't it wasn't bad. It was OK.

I'd love to talk to you more, but Rich Rich isn't a scientist. He's a very nice guy. He's a super nice guy, but not a scientist.

He's the best version of veganism. I would agree with he's not trying to convert anybody. He's just talking about his own personal experiences. And and they've been net positive for him.

You know, and the story that I've heard and I don't want to put any words in his mouth, but the story that I've heard from him and other vegans is is valid.

But it is often I was eating a diet of junk food. Right. I was it. I was drinking a lot. Yeah. And I did this intentional choice, which is frickin amazing. I would give anybody a high five. I think anyone deserves congratulations for making any intentional choice in their diet. I just want to provide information to help them make the best choice. Right. And so I think that they they've made intentional choices. They've cut out processed seed oils.

They've cut out, you know, processed food and they feel better.

And my question is, have you done the other thing right? Have you eaten meat and organs and have you eaten buffalo?

Yeah, bison that's grazed on, like, really healthy ground with real good ground, raw liver ritual because we don't give them that.

They don't get you high.

I don't think you got me high. It was OK. It was edible. But there was a point in time where if I was queasy when I would, the texture of that, when I was chewing on it, I was if I was of a weaker constitution, we might have had an issue.

But you're stronger now. So check this out. You'll appreciate this in the evolution folder. Jamie, I don't know if the study will be great to pull up, but there's a study in there, the vegetarian ERP brain study. So they've done studies with vegetarians and vegans and omnivores looking at the EEG. So looking at the electroencephalogram and looking at the way the brain responds at neocortical and a more basic level. And so the bottom thing there is kind of a complex statement, but they you see what they say.

The findings suggest that vegetarians aversion toward non vegetarian food prevails at the subjective level, and it's consistent with personal beliefs. But at the neural level, the intrinsic motivational salience of animal food remains. So that means that in the deeper brain, they still crave meat and well, they eat it when they get drunk.

Exactly. There's such a high proportion of them that you eat when they get the number. I think it's 30 to 40 percent. So let's find I love this statistic.

It's a weird statistic, right? Because who's answering these? I always wonder, like, who's who you asking? Like, there's so many people that never get asked. Yeah.

Like how many people that are vegetarians that get drunk and eat meat and you never ask them.

And how many people stay strong and they they stick to their diet when they get drunk.

What is what say we'll see portion of vegetarians, percentage of vegetarians that eat meat when drunk. It's a big number. I think it's I remember reading it in the high 30s.

It's a big number. Yeah, and that's the ones that are willing to admit it, that's the other thing about that thing. It's like he just got it.

Like there was one girl who got in real trouble because someone photographed her eating fish.

Right. Wasn't it like a fish tank or something? Could have been.

I don't know exactly, but I've heard the stories. Yeah. Yeah. 34 percent. 37 to 37 eaten meat when drunk and 34 percent of those admitted to slipping every time they're hammered, just 22 percent answered. They only dropped their standards rarely. Well, that means they all do it then. They're all liars.

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's in our brain. Right. It's in our brain. And I like you. I respect people making an intentional choice.

And I'm certainly a better choice than the standard American diet of absolute sugar and processed vegetable oils.

Yeah, yeah.

It's that's a subject that we should get into processed vegetable oils, that this is a fairly recent thing in terms of the human diet over the past 100 years or so. And there's a direct correlation between incorporating these processed seed oils and terrible health results.

It's a fascinating story, Joe, because if you look at how healthy we are in 2020, it's pretty abysmal. So, Jamie, in the folder, metabolic health care at the bottom, there's a series of graphics that really illustrate this. Well, I think it'll be really cool for everybody to see. So my friend Jeff Knob's, let me borrow these graphics from his blog. So start with the one on the row below that, Jamie. The red one.

It's just the Robleto that's like the. Chronic disease, you don't see the RO. So this is screenshot ten, eighteen, fifty eight. There we go. So if we look at chronic disease prevalence in America, it's clearly rising. It's a scary thought. So what is causing that right has a massive spike.

Look at that. From 1940 to 2020. I mean, it is just like a fuckin skateboard ramp.

It is a skateboard ramp. What is causing that? And, you know, a lot of people the prevailing narrative today is we eat too much and we're too sedentary. And I think that's a gross oversimplification because if you look at the data, we smoke less now.

So in 1955, there were 45 percent of people who smoked, and today there's 14 percent of people that smoke.

We now have essentially the same cancer prevalence that we had, you know, 20 years ago.

More of us exercise in twenty eighteen, 54 percent of people reported exercise relative to 1995, 44 percent and more Americans are, quote, eating healthy. In twenty eighteen. There's 59 percent of Americans adhering to healthier eating. And yet that's crazy if you look at rates of obesity. So this is the screenshot that is 10 1940 Jamy. Look at the percentage of obesity in America.

But that's just nuts that so many more people smoke and yet there's less people smoke. I mean, so many more people smoke in 1940, but yet there was less cancer.

Yeah, look at obesity in this house. That's just obesity. If you look at obesity and overweight, it's over 70 percent. These are just arbitrary.

This is just from the 70s, just the 70s to today. So what is going on? What is going on? We're exercising more smoking less rates of cancer. The same. We drink essentially the same amount of alcohol. And that's where the story gets to be really interesting. And this isn't none of this is causal.

None of this is, you know, interventional studies. These are just kind of detective work. So look at the ten eighteen point forty one Jamii. That's diabetes prevalence. It's tells the exact same story. It's just it's scary. So something is going on and we kind of have to say we kind of have to be as a medical community, we have to be honest and say, look at diabetes that's formally diagnosed diabetes with hemoglobin, A1, see, and fasting glucose like these are people who are very far on the spectrum of metabolic dysfunction.

Again, it's it's skyrocketed. And so what's going on here? And so now, Jim, if you go to ten sixteen point fifty six, that was the first one you brought up. We can look and this is just this is detective work, but we can start to make inferences or guesses, at least based on trends and calories from major food groups. This is actually a pretty cool graphic. So the top line there, the green one is grains.

It goes up a little bit, but since 1995, it's gone down. You can even look at sugars and sweeteners again, they go up a little bit, but in the last 20 years they've gone down and the consumption of meat has gone up. So we'll consider meat as a probable driver. But look at that red line in the middle. We see what that line is. Yeah, that's vegetable oil, man.

And then if you dig into that meat as a driver, this is the 10.1 1834. Jamie, look at the total meat consumption by type that one. So what are we eating more of? It's not red meat, the type that it's getting vilified. We're eating more chicken. So you might say, oh, red meat is driving the problem. No, we're eating less red meat than we did. And clearly, that doesn't really quite a bit quite a bit less red meat.

If you look at the middle between 1970 and 1980, the spike to what we have now in 2020, that's a that's a significant drop. Yeah.

And then if you go back to one of those other ones, Jimmy, the ten point eight point twenty six, you can see Americans are eating less saturated fat, cholesterol and sodium because those are all things that that get vilified. Right. And I don't believe saturated fat is a villain at all.

Saturated fat is incredibly healthy for humans when it's from well sourced animals. But we're eating less saturated fat. That's the blue line or just essentially the exactly the same. So these are not driving it. Red meat is not driving it. Nobody thinks chicken is driving the chronic disease epidemic. And then you look at ten point 19 more eating more plant foods. And I'm not saying that plant foods are driving this, but that doesn't look like we're going in.

You know, like that's certainly not, you know, and the real driver here, I suspect, is the last one, Jamy, 10, 18 oh nine. If you look at the consumption of vegetable oil by by Americans in since 1910, and that is a staggering amount.

You don't want to skateboarded that round. That's Tony for the man. Yeah, that's Tony Hawk. Tony Hawk.

Or look at that man. And you can see soybean is the main one, but canola, sunflower, cottonseed, peanut and other. This is completely, evolutionarily inconsistent. This is completely dis synchronous with our evolution. We would never have been grinding soybeans up into oil. We didn't have the ability to do this.

And then you can get into all of the reasons this might be doing this. But, you know, as I kind of dug into this, it gets a little bit deep in the weeds. But at a molecular level, these polyunsaturated fats, they act differently in our body and we don't fully have this figured out. But at the level of our mitochondria, it does look like these polyunsaturated fats, this linoleic acid rich vegetable oil is signalling things differently.

And I'm I think it's really there's a lot of compelling evidence to suggest that linoleic acid is driving adipocytes hypertrophy, meaning fat cells are getting bigger and there's fat cells can do two things. They can get bigger or they can divide. When fat cells get big and they don't divide, they eventually start leaking out inflammatory mediators, leaking out free fatty acids.

And so what you see is you start to see this interesting set of data that points to the fact that maybe all these excess linoleic acid is driving our fat cells to get really big, but isn't allowing them to divide the way they're supposed to.

You can imagine evolutionarily that as winter is coming, we might have had a few more seeds, which are foods in nature that have linoleic acid, but nothing like our consumption today.

So maybe it was advantageous to get a little bit more linoleic acid when things might be scarce in the winter in northerly climes.

Maybe there's an evolutionary mechanism here, but the potential is that every single day, all of us in the Western world, if we're eating excess vegetable oils, excess polyunsaturated fat, specifically linoleic acid, we are driving a signal to our adipocytes that winter is coming, get fat, stay fat. Well, so it's just this evolutionary inconsistency and it's not rocket science. It's like, wait a minute, just stop eating those oils and really stop consuming animals, fed corn and soy, especially pigs and and and Monegasque animals like chickens.

Ruminants are unique because they have a ruman. Ruminants can take polyunsaturated fat and put and make them into saturated fat. Humans can't do this. Monegasque for animals, humans, chickens, pigs, they can't do that anything.

Any polyunsaturated fat you give a pig is ending up in its fat. Any polyunsaturated fat that you or I eat is ending up in our fat tissue.

We don't we need a small amount, but there's an evolutionary amount that I think has always been seen. If we look at cultures of indigenous people, they all have two to three percent of their calories as linoleic acid.

You look at how much is the source of that? Usually, usually animal fat. There's about one point six to one point eight percent animal fat in a grass fed cow. And to be fair, in a grain fed cow, it's not a whole lot more. There's about two percent linoleic acid in the fat of a ruminant animal, a deer, a cow, a bison. But if you look at chicken, they're up at 23, 24 percent pork, 15 to 16 percent because they're fed corn and soy.

Like you said earlier, if you let a pig like if you're out hunting hogs, that that hog is going to have a fat, you know, maybe five to six percent then. Like acid, and you can totally it totally changes, you know, chicken, the same research has been done showing that chickens in the wild or a wild chicken looks like but like wild, flightless birds. Their fat looks different than when they're fed corn and soy, not surprisingly, because Monegasque gastrique, animals, chickens, turkey, duck, pork, you know, pigs, humans, we store the polyunsaturated fat.

So I think this is a really interesting hypothesis. We don't have enough data to say this. But, man, it's so compelling. And, you know, the other side of the equation is certainly high fructose corn syrup is not helping anything. But I think it's important people understand that that might not be the only villain and that a lot of people might get rid of the sugar, but then continue eating processed food or hummus with canola oil or, you know, chips from the store that are cooked in soybean oil and not understand it.

And this could be driving a lot of the disease that we're seeing in a really subtle way.

It's fascinating because the narrative has always been unsaturated fats or good saturated fats are bad. And a lot of this came from those studies that were sort of. There were kind of hijacked by the sugar industry, and this is this has been proven and this is something that is not that widely known, there's a lot of people aren't aware of it. Still, there was a time where the sugar industry bribed off scientists to pass the blame off on saturated fat for heart disease.

Look it up to me. It's in The New York Times. Look up sugar industry pay, you know, not that much either. It was they paid them like 50 grand. And in that those bribes, they literally ruined the American diet. And because the narrative gets like most people work all day, they have kids, they have hobbies, they have friends. How the sugar industry shifted blame to fat.

Yeah, this is from 2016. This is a funeral. It's not even that old. Well, yeah, not that old that this happened. Yeah. Yeah. They discovered they discovered it but this was the actual studies were from what was the 60s.

I think so yeah. This is the biggie 1967 review of sugar, fat and heart disease. The studies used in the review were hand-picked by the Sugar Group, and the article, which was published in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine, minimized the link between sugar and heart health and cast aspersions on the role of saturated fat. So that scared everybody and got everybody eating margarine. And margin is fucking terrible for you. That's the oil. Yeah. And now people know what's really good for you is grass fed butter.

The grass fed butter is actually not bad for you at all.

Suet? Yeah. Animal fat. Have you had to do it? I haven't. I heard you talk about kidney fat and it's particularly high and it's good.

It's kind of waxy. I think that you'd eat it if you were in the wilderness, but you might not eat at other times. He's growing again. You want some of that raw liver, bro? Jamie, we got some roll over for you said that it was going to give you a thing.

One hundred percent I would regurgitate. I promise you it didn't. It would, though.

But it didn't to me. I could tell I was like, you have a nice little slice just a little time.

Not salt. Well, salt. Oh, Char, OK, we could do that for you.

We could make it happen. You little Trager in here. I brought you guys some desiccated organs to maybe desiccated organs are more Jamie style.

I take those I take pill form. Yeah.

Because I'm not going to get into my diet every single day. So I take a I know you have a company, but I was actually taking a different company stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. Well you know, I thought about that, that a lot of people when I talk about spleen and kidney and pancreas, people do like what I'm never eating. That's right. But I wanted like my mom and my sister to have dessicated organs. And when you put them in a freeze dryer, you can freeze dried it like thirty eight degrees, preserve most of the nutrients, put them in a capsule. It's amazing.

And yours is heart and soil, hardened soil, hardened soil supplements. And I'm sure that is that available on Amazon. It's available, it's available on Amazon or there's a website people can go to for her to go to.

Yeah, I buy everything on Amazon, so. Yeah. Yeah. You're addicted to only clicking one.

I know. I know. Well I'm pretty sure in Austin we'll get you hooked up if you want some joker. Yeah. Yeah. But it's so cool to be able to put organs in there. We start with like liver but we have a beef organs that has pancreas, liver, kidney, heart and spleen. That's really cool. There's unique benefits to all these different organs.

How much is lost in the transition between it being raw and in a natural form and then put into pills?

Not a lot because it's freeze dried. So you think about you still save some if you dehydrated 140, but in a freeze drier, they lower the pressure and then they pull out the water at a low pressure. It's essentially sublimation where you can go from solid to gas without going through liquid.

So you preserve as much as possible, like a pretty good amount stays in there.

So maybe you lose a certain percentage of that and you could make that up with volume.

Probably volume. Yeah, volume. And it's just what's so cool is, you know, when you hear about these desiccated organs, you think that's not going to work. And then you get hundreds of emails from people who are like, I took your organ pills and I feel better.

I'm like, this is for real, you know? Yeah. And it's just so cool.

Like my mom takes it. My dad takes it, my sister takes it. She like opens it in the food for my niece and nephew. She's like puts it in their avocado or applesauce or mix it in the ground beef. And I just think that's cool, you know, and people feel different.

We've got all kinds of different stuff people can check out, but there's different thought about selling it in a spoonbill like powder so you could add it to whatever. People don't want to taste it.

No, no, they don't want to taste. The councils are amazing because you can just take them in their portable. Maybe if people really want the powder, we'd make it. But I think the capsules are better for people and it's portable and it's easy. And you can condense, you know, an ounce of Oregon into, you know, a reasonable amount of pills. It's real food. So there's no additives or preservatives or anything in there. So it doesn't get that.

You have to take six, eight pills, again, an ounce of organs, but that's a good amount of organs.

Is that what you recommend on your on the bottle?

Sixty six day capsules of each. And so if you are really gung ho about organs, like get the fresh stuff if you can, I want people to eat fresh liver and fresh heart and fresh.

I don't know if you want to need it, but. But if you can't do that, I just thought this is a cool thing that I can do that I believe he's shaking his head.

He's just made for me, I think. Yeah, the pills. I'm going to get them for him. I got some for you right now. Jamie, hold on. I'm going to. Is it going to help.

Let me think immediately. Yeah. Jamie, you should try to eat the raw liver just once.

We'll get you a break. It's not that I've not. I've tried it and I know that the response that's going to happen. You've had raw liver before.

I've tried all sorts of like. Weird shit, I worked in a restaurant for 10 years, so I wasn't afraid to try it right. But like once I tried it, I was like, OK, this isn't for me.

And yours are all from grass fed animals.

Yeah, they're all grass fed, grass finished animals from New Zealand. And we're actually working really hard to develop a regenerative chain in the US. Really? Yeah. So that's in the pipeline trying to do that with those folks.

Is it hope ranches that we're saying why don't pastures the one home and what's the one that's in Rome. Rome, right.

Yeah. How many should it take.

Like two or three. Or you want to water bro. I got water over here, ok. Oh, all right. All right. That's a lot. Yeah.

We're going to talk to you in about an hour and 20 minutes, which is exactly how long it takes mushrooms to kick in to six.

Six, OK? Yes, I do eight. You do eight. Do go fucking savage.

Come on, get after it. Now, how much liver do you think I just ate there about amounts. About an ounce. So that's about what you can get in those six days. Yes.

Yeah. If you if it was a pure liver pills. So this one is a beef organismal. So there's a little less it's a little like a fifth of an ounce of every organ because liver, pancreas and spleen.

But what does your diet consist of, like what is a daily daily meal or what would it be a regular basis.

So I eat twice a day. I like to do intermittent fasting, but I like to do it earlier in the day. So I like to eat my dinner quote at three or four o'clock and I eat breakfast at eight or nine. So I've got like an 18 hour eating window of 16, 18 hour eating window most days.

And what do you do it that way? Because I think there's some evidence, or at least I think there's a little bit of evidence, at least in diabetics. And then personally, I've I've experienced better sleep when I finish eating dinner earlier. Melatonin and insulin do have a little bit of a contradictory effect. You know, if you eat late at night, is the insulin spike going to affect your body's ability to release melatonin from the hypothalamus and actually initiate sleep?

It's like, are you supposed to be eating right before you go to sleep? I'm not sure. I just thought, oh, it's easier to sleep if I eat earlier in the day.

What do you do if you're on a dinner date? Oh, in that case, I'll I'll eat later in the day. I'll make an exception. I'll make an exception. But yeah. So when I have total control over my my territory. Yeah. It's morning and night, two meals a day. I don't really find that I need more than that. And you exercise.

So when do you exercise.

I've actually started doing a lot of the paval songline grease the groove stuff. OK, so I've got a little gym outside my house, it's outdoors and I'll just go out probably three or four times a day and do pull ups, do some kettlebell swings at the punching bag for ten or fifteen minutes. Multiple times. If I do multiple, if I do like a big exercise it could be stuck on your thumb there.

Amazing. It's like it's like when you walk out of the bathroom and you have like a tunnel that they've gotten from your bottle. Yeah.

So I do a lot of that stuff too. I enjoy working out that way. I think there's some real benefit to these long part. Like sometimes I'll lift weights for two hours and the reason why I do it is I have these giant gaps in between my sets and then, you know, I drink electrolyte drink, I drink liquid. I've watched some fights and I it's a casual workout and then but I'm still getting a lot of reps in a lot of work done.

But after the the day is done, I feel great. I don't feel completely crushed because I'm not trying to get my endurance in that way. I get my cardio in through other methods. So that is just really just strength training. And I've I've actually gotten some good benefits from doing it that way.

I love the idea that he said when he was on your show, you want to feel better after you workout than when you started.

Yeah, that's kind of cool. And again, it's and it's just really consistent, like. Right.

One hour, unless you were running away from hippopotamus, you know, or a wild cow, which we talked about before the podcast or something like, are you going to like, crush yourself?

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Doing what time it makes sense, I think is like endurance training. Yeah. Some like you have to kind of push your threshold.

Yeah. And when you're hunting. Yeah. Like persistence hunting or anything, you know, I mean David Cho is talking about that. He was just running after the hot zone. He couldn't keep up and they were running and running. Running and you can imagine along, you know, but I also wonder how fast they run. So there's lots to learn there. You know, I don't think they're sprinting or running six minute miles, maybe. But maybe that's kind of like cruising along like ultramarathon pace.

I used to run Ultra's, but not anymore. Did you really? Yeah.

It was intense. When you stop doing that, uh, a number of years ago, it was too much for me.

It was like, this is this is a lot. It was because, you know, you're running an ultra, you're like racing. You're trying to go really hard. I like long distance hiking, though. So when I was younger, I through hike the Pacific Crest Trail, which is one of the coolest things I've ever done. And I love that. I love just like walking thirty miles a day more than I like running thirty miles a day.

Well, it's interesting to me that there are people that thrive doing that, that they can do, like my friend Cameron Haynes, that fucking dude can run a marathon.

It's impressive. He does it all the time. What does this staying fit is in a New Year's resolution for these hunter gatherers? Oh, that's the twenty seventeen.

They did a study where they strapped heart rate monitors on two hundred or so, one hundred ninety eight different Hadza men and women and track. Time to see what their cardiovascular fitness was, probably off the charts, um, their findings here, examination of blood pressure, cholesterol and other biomarkers showed no evidence of risk factors for cardiovascular disease.

Yeah, they're probably super fit.

I mean, it makes sense. It's kind of that low level activity throughout the day, constantly. It just feels good for your brain, too. And I'll be at home work in writing or answering emails or something, and I don't wanna do that for three hours. I want to like, do it for 45 minutes or an hour, get up, do some pull ups, go outside, breathe some air, go see the natural world, go outside barefoot and move around.

This is something that I want to discuss to cardiovascular disease and heart attacks. The difference between the rate of cardiovascular disease and heart attacks today versus like the early 1980s, there's a giant spike, a big change, same as those other graphs we could it would be essentially the same the same reflection on the graph.

It would be an up angle that you would not want to skate, you know, and and again, it's the question of what is driving this? What is driving this? Because we were eating more saturated fat in 1900. We were eating way more saturated fat in 1800 or 1840.

And the only oils we used were animal fats, which are not entirely saturated. There are about half mono and half saturated, half monounsaturated, half saturated with a very small amount of polyunsaturated.

So to say that it's to say that it's saturated fat driving, this doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Again, this is just correlation. But there's there's not even a correlation there. The correlation is with vegetable oil.

And if you get into this research, it's complex, but it's pretty darn striking if you look at linoleic acid.

So and you look at the molecule, it's polyunsaturated, so it's a long chain, carbon and polyunsaturated and means it has double bonds between the carbons and those double bonds can be oxidized. When we talk about oxidation earlier and the formation of a lipid peroxides, well, those molecules, polyunsaturated fats and even monounsaturated fat, any unsaturated point in a carbon skeleton molecule like a chain long chain fatty acid is going to make it susceptible to oxidation and then lipid peroxides, which are lipids that have had an electron stolen from that double bond, then those are more susceptible.

Those are more reactive with other lipids and they create these lipid peroxide reactions. And then you're getting oxidative stress from the lipids. And if you look at. So we should back up for a moment. It goes back to we were talking about earlier the reason, one of the reasons saturated fat has been thought of as bad for so long.

Is because it raises LDL. But if LDL is not Denovo causing atherosclerosis, then we have a whole different equation.

Well, let's let's get into that, because this is one of the big questions that I got when I told people I was going to eat an animal only diet for a month.

What about your cholesterol? What are you going to do about it?

And then I try to tell them that dietary cholesterol does not raise cholesterol and your blood lipids and they just glaze over and they're like, well, here are you taking in a lot of cholesterol? And it's just most people don't have the time to research this or to get into the weeds and to try to shift their perception about what cholesterol is, about the the benefits of cholesterol, the necessity of cholesterol for the human diet, for production of hormones.

So let's get into that LDL and HDL. What is the difference?

So LDL is low density lipoprotein and it's formed from VLDL after it becomes IDL, which is intermediate density lipoprotein.

So when you eat fat in your diet, it it is generally in triglyceride form, which is packaged into molecules called Kylah Microns, which move from the intestines to the liver in the liver cholesterol, which is actually a steroid backbone molecule, is packaged with triglycerides into a VLDL, very low density lipoprotein particle. It's like a bus. It moves triglycerides and cholesterol around the body because they're nutrients, because they're essential for human life, because, like you said, hormones are made from a cholesterol backbone.

And if you did not have cholesterol, you would be very sick and die. There's a genetic condition called Smith Leanly Opeth syndrome, which is a mutation in one of the enzymes that makes cholesterol. It's pretty far down in the pathway. But a lot of these kids die in utero. Those that are born have severe retardation, both mental and physical. They're extremely resistant. They're extremely susceptible to infections. And they have a lot of problems of sleep and diabetes and other issues because they don't make cholesterol.

They have extremely low LDL because they can't make cholesterol in the liver and probably in peripheral tissues either. And so the way we treat these kids is with egg yolks.

We just give them tons and tons of dietary cholesterol and hopes that that will be some sort of a supplement that that they can use to make LDL as their LDL goes up. They do better. They're never going to have a normal life.

But there are so many studies that point to the value of low density lipoprotein. And if we just think about it evolutionarily, why would nature why would evolution have designed a particle that kills us within our body that at the same time defends us from infection?

So there are good studies in animal models that show that if you knock out the LDL receptor in in in mice and rats, the levels of LDL in the blood drop a lot. And those mice and rats are protected against infections so they can infuse bacteria, gram negative bacteria to those rats.

And the higher levels of LDL are protective in those studies. And the same thing has been true in humans. You can look for correlations. This is epidemiology. At some point we should definitely talk about why that's not why epidemiology can be so misleading. But higher levels of cholesterol are correlated with lower admission to the hospital for infectious complications.

And we definitely see in animal models and essentially with humans, with the Smith up its genetic model, that lower levels of cholesterol predisposed to infection because LDL, lower levels of serum cholesterol, meaning low density lipoprotein predisposed to infection because that low density, low protein particle is part of the immune system and so is HDL.

So HDL is high density lipoprotein. It leaves the liver is kind of an empty bus. LDL leaves the liver as VLDL for bus drops off, people along the way becomes a less robust VLDL becomes LDL. HDL is an empty bus that goes along the body, picking things up and then returning to the liver. But HDL and LDL both have roles in the immune system.

So why do we think that a molecule, a lipoprotein particle that serves an indispensable role in human biochemistry or human physiology is killing us?

That's just the first step. Can I stop you there? What is the standard model? What do people believe?

Like you asked a doctor that doesn't have a lot of nutrition training about HDL and LDL, what would they tell you?

At a very high level, they would say HDL is good, LDL is bad. You want less LDL and you want more HDL. Why would they say that?

Because there's something called the lipid hypothesis. And the lipid hypothesis is that essentially in a concentration dependent manner, LDL ends up in the arterial wall.

OK, this is the lipid hypothesis. I disagree with this. I think it's an incomplete hypothesis. And so they would say if you have more LDL, it's just going to kind of leak into your arterial wall because it naturally gets taken up and has more LDL ends up in your artery wall. You get more atherosclerosis and more plaque.

What's the root of this hypothesis?

It's a lot of epidemiology, Mendelian randomisation and genome wide association studies. So this is really interesting. We should dig into this. So if you look at.

If you look at basic epidemiology, so let's just think about epidemiology, you've talked about this on the show before, but I want to define this for people.

Epidemiology is essentially an observational study. There's no experiment done there giving people surveys and they're even following them moving forward prospective or they're looking back at what they've done in the past, a retrospective study. And so epidemiology can generate correlations, but we cannot draw causative inference from that data. We can have a correlation which we then test with an interventional study, LDL kind of test with TAFTA, test with an interventional study. But there are some really cool stuff here that starts to break it down if you look at overall cohorts of people.

So if you look at the Framingham study, for instance, and you look at LDL on the x axis and incidence of cardiovascular disease on the Y axis, actually have two graphs of this that I'll show you that'll make that'll make it really helpful to break it down.

So if you look at those two and you don't do anything to this isn't the lipids and CVD folder, Jamie, you see that S.A.C., LDL only graphic.

So if you look at this, this is the basic data from framing him. OK. This is correlation, this is epidemiology, increasing risk of cardiovascular disease on the on the Y axis, LDL on the x axis. OK, so it's things like this that make people say, oh, yeah, LDL, it's probably causing atherosclerosis, which is the formation of plaque within the arterial wall. But go to the other one, Jamie, S.A.C., LDL, HDL.

So this is the exact same data stratified by a third variable, and this is what is never considered with LDL, in my opinion, the Libyan hypothesis is flawed because it's incomplete. It misses the third variable or fourth variable in this in this stratification. We've looked at HDL. We've looked at the, quote, good cholesterol, which we really don't know a whole lot about, probably on immune participant. But HDL levels do correlate with metabolic health synonymous with insulin resistance.

So what can we say about these people? This is the exact same data that I split into four four lines here. Those with the lowest level of HDL are the most metabolically unhealthy. These are the most obese, the most likely to have coronary, the most likely to have diabetes, the most likely to have insulin resistance.

You can see they have a pretty good risk of relative risk of cardiovascular disease as LDL increases. But look at the bottom. Look at the people who are most insulin sensitive. There's essentially no correlation or the correlation is massively different between people with a high HDL good metabolic health and LDL increasing.

Does that make sense? Soad says increasing LDL is very little increase in the cardiovascular disease risk with high HDL.

Yeah, so as you increase your LDL, as long as you have high HDL, increasing LDL has very little risk, very little cardiac risk.

And we see that over and over and over again.

What if you just have high LDL and low HDL, then you probably have diabetes and in that case you have then you're in trouble.

So the issue is not a LDL, it's low HDL. Well, the issue is low. HDL is reflective of an underlying pathology, which is metabolic dysfunction and or insulin resistance. The issue is insulin resistance, metabolic dysfunction. So we're using HDL level as a proxy for metabolic health here.

What is an optimal ratio of LDL to HDL?

Yes, I actually it's tricky because there's a whole group of people now. Right. So I have a good friend, Dave Feldman, who's doing he's an engineer, super smart guy, doing a lot of really cool work on this. And they're actually about to start a study with lean mass hyper responders within the space, the carnivore ketogenic space.

There are people who begin eating this way and they see their LDL go up significantly. So some people don't see LDL rise. But I did. I have a pretty high quote, LDL.

And so within the space, there's a lot of people with high LDL who look like me, pretty fit, active, don't have chest pain, don't believe I have cardiovascular disease. We can talk about my blood work and what I've done to confirm that.

But there's a whole group of people called lean mass hyper responders.

And Dave's hypothesis, which I agree with completely, is that elevated LDL alone is too simplistic a metric.

Mainstream medicine gets hyper focused on LDL or more specifically, APOE B, which is a proxy again for the number of LDL particles.

That's too simplistic because I think there's context here. And the context is that I don't believe there's sufficient evidence to say that high LDL in somebody that's metabolically healthy is the same as high LDL in somebody that's metabolically unhealthy. There's a third variable. We have to think about multiple variables because there's a context and it makes sense.

Right? There are other things that are like this. Uric acid is a good example, too.

Incidentally, both LDL and uric acid rise when humans fast. So if you stop eating, your LDL is going to go up. And that's been demonstrated multiple times in studies. Fasting raises LDL. They've even shown this in hibernating bears.

Hibernating bears see have a rise in LDL, but they don't develop atherosclerosis over the course of their hibernation period. There's actually a screenshot at the bottom in the lipid CBD folder, Jamie.

And I'll pull up. There's another study here with the Hibernating Bear study. It's pretty fascinating, the Bears Atheros hibernation.

And so we see this over and over in humans, that fasting raises LDL, fasting raises uric acid, but fasting people who fast people who do ketogenic diet, they don't get gout.

They don't get atherosclerosis in quite the same way. Or at least that's the hypothesis. Certainly bears don't. And we have some strange that fasting would raise LDL.

It does until you think about LDL as a nutrient, a nutrient carrier.

Hmm.

So Dave is developing something called a lipid energy model, and I want to give him all credit for this. I've actually got a set of slides that will probably make it clear when I talk about. But Dave's hypothesis is that if you are burning mostly fat as energy and even somebody that eats some carbohydrates can be burning mostly fat as energy, you are going to be moving more LDL in your blood to move that fat around.

And we certainly know that interventions can do that.

And it makes sense when you fast you're depleting the glycogen. Your ketones are going up and you are burning fat. You're not burning as much glucose, you're burning more fat, you're free. Fatty acids are going to go up. Your your LDL is going to go up.

And so you kind of scratch your head there. At least I didn't look at this and thought, are you telling me that in something that would happen routinely for humans fasting like we talked about, intermittent fasting, unsuccessful hunts, that's killing us in a way that's causing atherosclerosis?

That doesn't make any sense and it certainly doesn't happen in bears and other hibernating mammals.

So LDL will rise in response to fasting. LDL seems to rise in response to what we choose to burn as our primary fuel. Now, there's still we're still kind of trying to figure this out. Dave's had he just texted me this morning.

He's like, I've got all this really great data. He's almost ready to share it. It's super interesting stuff.

But the whole idea of what LDL is doing in a human body I think has been misconstrued and misunderstood. Again, the lipid hypothesis would say the more LDL, the more atherosclerosis.

Well, if that's the case, if and it's kind of tied into that model is the notion that LDL must cause atherosclerosis, Denovo or in and of itself, because if more LDL equals atherosclerosis than LDL is causing atherosclerosis, I don't think anyone who subscribes to the lipid energy model is going to debate that.

But if LDL causes atherosclerosis de novo, why don't we get atherosclerosis in veins? Why do we only get atherosclerosis an. Arteries. There's the same amount of LDL throughout our body, veins and arteries are contiguous system. And so why are we developing plaque in arteries but not veins?

And that's why we never see plaque in veins unless they are transplanted into the arterial system. So there's clearly more things going on. And in the case of arteries versus veins, the prevailing hypothesis is that it's endothelial damage. So the inside of a the inside of a blood vessel is the anesthesia and something has to damage the endothelium for this to happen. It seems in higher pressure systems, the arteries seem to damage the endothelium and this network of like a proteins on the surface of the endothelium called like a Calix.

And that doesn't happen in veins there. Lower pressure, at least this is one hypothesis.

But for LDL to cause atherosclerosis in and of itself, it just doesn't seem to be it doesn't seem to work. And studies like that with Framingham make me think there's a third variable. So if you look at the general population, sure, you might see a correlation between LDL and cardiovascular disease.

But if you look at it a little more precisely or a little more carefully, you start to separate out those who are metabolically healthy, which granted is the minority from those who are metabolically unwell. If the majority of people in our society are metabolically unwell, of course, it looks like there's a correlation.

But what about this group over here, you and me, who are metabolically healthy?

If our LDL goes up, is that going to cause atherosclerosis?

I think the evidence for that is paltry at best and it's not there. And I think that we are eating a diet that we believe to be ancestrally consistent.

Why would that kill us? Right. And so one of the things that I've done so I have an elevated LDL, I will freely admit that my HDL is also very high. I have all my labs if you want to see what would happen.

Can I just talk to you? What would happen if you went to a cardiologist like, you know, a cardiologist said, Doc, I'm feeling great, but don't tell him shit. Just say, but I just like to get my blood work done. Get it, get a checkup. Tell me what you think I should do.

They would fall out of their chair when they saw my lipids. They would say that is it or what is the number. It's high.

So and the and so the the LDL has been above 300 for 300 milligrams per deciliter, which is essentially a density measure for all two years that I have done a carnivore diet before that. I don't have familial hypercholesterolemia though, but my LDL is as high as people with homozygous that you say you don't have.

What was that familial hyper cholesterol.

That means it's not your family. It's not genetic. There's a there are there's about 2000 plus genetic polymorphisms that actually result in a high LDL independent of diet. Right. And they change lipid metabolism.

OK, so this is really important. The problem a lot of people are are proponents of the lipid hypothesis, which they look at people with familial hypercholesterolemia, they get accelerated atherosclerosis.

The problem is that in order to get an elevated LDL, you had the disorder, normal lipid metabolism within the framework of healthy, that is non disordered lipid metabolism.

There's no evidence that elevated LDL leads to atherosclerosis. So in my case, my most recent LDL was very high. It was 533 milligrams per deciliter. What's normal? Less than 100 are around 100.

So 100 is preferred or preferred by the mainstream cardiologist.

Right now. I can I can pull the labs. Are there any cardiologists that agree with you? There are.

OK, yeah, I've had a number of them on my podcast. There's definitely cardiologists who do not subscribe to the lipid hypothesis, but certainly the majority do.

And any mainstream doctors who are hearing this are just wanting to throw daggers at me right now.

It seems like there's that's got to be very controversial if you're a cardiologist that follows your line of thinking.

Yeah, I think it is. But I think it's gaining traction because what often happens is people will do that. They'll go into their cardiologist and they'll send the cardiologist, look at them and say, Frank, you look great. You've lost twenty pounds. Your diabetes is better.

I mean, nothing but Marjanovic, right? No, but then they'll say, let's say and they'll say great. And they say, Doc, I feel good. And this is oh wait. But your LDL is too high. You got to change and then they won't, they won't have anything and they'll say Oh I'm eating meat, oh you got to change that. Whatever you did that cured your diabetes cause all this weight loss. I couldn't. That's that's bad for you because your LDL has gone high because we had this myopic, LDL centric perspective that excludes the contextual variables, metabolic dysfunction, metabolic health, insulin sensitivity, insulin resistance.

How did they gain such prevalence? So why is that so? Why is it so universally agreed upon by so many cardiologists?

I think it's because it's hard to say so. Before I went to medical school, I was actually a physician assistant and I worked in cardiology for four years.

And I think it's a lot of what we are taught in medicine is all we know, right? We're taught this is the model.

And if you look at it, there are there is evidence, there is correlational evidence that shows the lower the LDL, the lower the incidence of heart disease. But it misses the context. And if you start to put in the contextual variables, the model breaks down. And so I think it's just it's been parroted over and over and over and the prevailing. Thinking is just this is what it is, this is what it is, but there certainly are cardiologists.

I've had three or four cardiologists on my podcast that don't don't subscribe to this model. And there's a lot of them out there. A lot of my friends and colleagues in the medical world are skeptical of this model.

So I'll finish my story because I talked about my super high LDL before we get to that, these doctors that don't prescribe to that model, it seems to me that if you're going to step outside the mainstream, it's kind of a precarious route.

And would they be hesitant to do so if you're dealing with non metabolically healthy people? So would they make the distinction like, hey, I'm looking at you, Paul, you look very fit. Your you're lean, you exercise, you look you look great. Your LDL is high, your HDL is high, but all the other biomarkers are excellent. Or would they look at a guy who's fat, who doesn't have a good diet, is not metabolically healthy, but also has high LDL?

They treat them? Absolutely. Absolutely.

Because these cardiologists are savvy enough to understand context.

So if if if if you go to a cardiologist and they don't check fasting insulin or hemoglobin, anyone see or put a continuous glucose monitor on you, they're missing the context. And so these are just laboratory markers that give you a sense of your metabolic health. And so, absolutely, these these colleagues of mine would treat the people completely differently because it's context. Right. The way that I've talked about in the past is just this analogy. If you have dry wood for the winter in your garage, it's not just going to spark a fire.

Right. Dry wood can be good. You can build things with it. You can build a house with dry wood. LDL can be good in the absence of metabolic dysfunction, it has all these rules, it's protective in the immune system, it moves nutrients around the body.

So do you think that it is detrimental in the presence of metabolic dysfunction?

It looks that way. Yes. Yes. So it's all about the context. So LDL is getting wrapped in and people have said LDL is not the arsonist. It's the firefighter who shows up to quell the blaze. And that that's kind of a complicated analogy. But you get the idea like a policeman shows up at the scene of a crime. Does that mean he committed the crime?

Because there is evidence that LDL ends up in atherosclerotic plaque?

And so there's both pathology, you know, pathologic evidence and, you know, this epidemiology evidence. But when you bring in the contextual variable, it starts to break down.

What do you think does caused that plaque then?

If it's not LDL, it's it's the fact that in the setting of metabolic dysfunction, the LDL and this is just my hypothesis. Right? I don't think anyone knows this. The LDL perhaps gets retained. So LDL is a lipoprotein. I think it moves in and out of the endothelium into the sub endothelial space freely. And there's something about there's potentially something about the LDL moving into that seven p.m. space, getting retained in that sub endothelial space. So if you were to take a blood vessel and cut it, you know, lengthwise and look down it like a tube, there's multiple layers.

OK, I got more foam here.

So distracting for John. You know, there's multiple layers, right?

The innermost layer, if the blood's here, the innermost layers, the endothelium below that is the Intiman and the the mucosal layer in the Avantika. And just below the endothelium are immune cells called macrophages.

And what appears to happen with atherosclerosis is that the the LDL particles get retained in there for some reason and the macrophages kind of pick them up. They eat them, they end up Saito's them, they phagocytes them. And so they kind of eat these LDL particles potentially, as you know, trying to take care of something that could be problematic. And then they become foam cells. They get full of more and more lipid. And that's the beginning of a fatty streak.

And again, this is very high level basic stuff. It's not it's a little more complex, but there's something going on, I think, at the level of that sub antima, that endothelium suban athelia space, that these macrophages are not responding properly to LDL or the LDL looks damaged. And so now you start to get into ideas of oxidised LDL versus native LDL and what causes LDL to oxidize? Well, there's good evidence that excess linoleic acid in the diet might be doing it, oxidative stress might be doing it, or at the level of the macrophage.

When you have metabolic dysfunction, it's broadly disordered insulin signalling.

Is there a correlation between articular arterial plaque increase and increase in vegetable oils?

Yeah, well, I mean, there's a correlation. Yeah, we could try the same grass. Yeah.

So what you're saying about LDL and HDL, is this something that you have ever debated with a cardiologist that, you know, follows the mainstream ideas of what what is good or bad about HDL and HDL? There's LDL.

There's a family doc who's going to come on my podcast soon that I'm planning to debate about it. I think he's open to the ideas. But, yeah, it would be interesting to debate these guys.

I would like to see someone who hard core disagrees with you on this because I'm too dumb to know who's right.

I think it'd be super fun to talk to those guys and, you know, have all the studies up and stuff. But you can find studies. So there are studies and I've got these on the folder again. I'll put all these studies on the website that people can find all the stuff that they want to dig into it. There are studies that show that the more linoleic acid you eat, the more enriched and linoleic acid your LDL particles become, and then the more oxidised your LDL particles become.

And if you decrease Aldy, if you decrease linoleic acid, there's a decrease in the oxidation of the LDL particles. So there's a lot of kind of pieces that look like the dots are connecting it.

So compelling LDL is not created equal.

All LDL is not created equal and even mainstream lipids, allergist's. So I recently heard a podcast between two folks who are pretty prominent in the lipid community and even they were admitting and their proponents, I believe they are proponents.

I don't put words in their mouth of the Lipitor hypothesis and even they were admitting that the the quality of the LDL particle matters.

And as soon as you introduce quality of the LDL particle, you introduced that third variable and what determines the quality of the LDL particle? Its the context. Its our overall metabolic health as humans.

And we cannot and we should not be looking at lab markers or metrics in isolation as humans, for I know that cardiologists are intelligent and well-meaning, but I fear that within the medical establishment we're just myopically looking at LDL. And I worked in cardiology for four years as a physician assistant before I went back to medical school and the second resident did my residency, you know, and stuff.

So like we're very LDL centric and it's becoming it's becoming more and more ensconced.

Like it's just all about lowering APOE B, which essentially means lowering LDL. And I just don't think that's the right thing for people. If someone is not willing to make dietary lifestyle change, yes, you probably should lower AOB. But if we are telling people the full truth, in my opinion, it is, hey, your lifestyle is causing this.

Do you want to. And here's. You should eat now. The problem there is that the mainstream medical establishment is so hung up on the fact that saturated fat raises LDL that they can't possibly recommend the animal foods that people should be eating. So they don't even know what to tell people. They'll tell people eat more vegetable oil, which is the wrong thing. And there are some really good studies. The Minnesota coronary experiment and the City Diet Heart Study were pretty fantastic studies.

I've got them both in the notes here if you want to see them. Chris Ramsden, who is the investigator on both of those, or at least the second publication about these national hero, in my opinion.

But in the Minnesota corner experiment, they were randomized.

It's a randomized interventional trial and it's a blinded trial where they had one group that was higher saturated fat and one group that was higher polyunsaturated fat. And the polyunsaturated fat diet clearly did worse, clearly did worse. More heart disease, more death, more cancer. That's the other thing about polyunsaturated fat is there are a lot of signals for increased cancer. The city diet heart showed exactly the same thing. More polyunsaturated fat, more death, more cardiovascular disease, more cancer, so it's it's there are some interventional studies that are pretty hard to ignore, just putting them head to head.

And yet, because we are so myopic, because we are so focused on LDL and we don't think about context or metabolic health. How could a physician recommend Talo?

Well, just breaking down all the shit that you've said in this podcast is giving people a headache right now. I guarantee you they're listening to this.

And most folks who would just say to me if I said I'm eating only meat, well, what about your cholesterol?

They really don't know any of this stuff. So it's they have a tiny piece of information in their head. Cholesterol equals bad. You put that in their heart attacks, heart disease. You're going to die. You're going to die. You're eating like that. You're going to die. Well, why do I feel so good?

Why do you care so much on why did you lose weight? Why did you feel like you'll get better? Why would you have energy throughout the day?

It's weird. It's very weird. Back to your lab results. Yeah. Your lab results are very high.

You have high HDL, high LDL and low triglycerides. What about arterial plaque zero one?

So now there are a lot of people who had criticize this finding, but I mean, zero zero and I'll tell you.

So it's with a C.A.C. So it's a coronary artery calcium score. It's a CT scan of the heart. It's not a perfect test, but it's a pretty darn good test. So Dave and his colleagues are doing a study where they're going to do CTA, which is CT coronary angiogram. And I'm going to try and be a part of that study as well. They're going to take people who are lean mass hyper responders. They just got all the funding for it, I think.

And they're going to do CT coronary angiogram one year apart. So what's interesting here, Joe, is that for kids with familial hypercholesterolemia now, again, granted they're disordered lipid metabolism disorder, that sometimes they're not healthy lipid metabolism. Right. So they don't look quite like me. They have a high LDL, but their LDL metabolism doesn't work properly. They develop atherosclerosis within the first few years of their life and they have LDL levels that are equivalent to mine.

Now, I've had an LDL above 300 for more than two years. I also have a family history of early heart disease and a primary relative. My dad had a heart attack when he was 43.

So I'm 43. My dad had a heart attack when he was 43. So I have risk factors for coronary artery disease.

What was your dad's diet like? What was his lifestyle like?

I mean, he was he was an internist, so he was not sleeping well. He was not eating well. He didn't think about this at all. He didn't know.

Right. And that's what's so ironic is my dad is such a role model for me, you know, amazing guy. He was texting me all excited. I was coming on the podcast today, and he's such an amazing guy and he meant so well for his patients. But I just don't think that mainstream medicine thought about this contextual stuff. Is he following your diet? He's not.

But he did wear a CGM. And I think he's going to try and move his diet in the right direction when he sees what his postprandial are after eating blood sugars are.

What kind of diet is young? It's getting better and better.

But that I saw a part of his dietary recall from the folks at Nutrition's, which is the company that does a CGM.

And it was he was eating grass fed meat. He takes the desiccated organ supplements and he's eating some white rice. And I think he had like some banana bread. And the thing I keep trying to get him to stop is eating Lucerna or vegetable oil because he's eating these weight loss shakes that have soybean oil in them.

And, you know, I, I to he hasn't shared with me his CGM.

And I want to be respectful. And if he will share with me his continuous glucose monitoring, we can look at his metabolic health because I'm not going to order blood work for my dad, but I can look at his continuous glucose monitor.

Like this is the kind of stuff that really tells you about your metabolic health. There's no way to lie with a continuous glucose monitor. And so I think that he has some room to improve, but it's slow. He helped me like edit the book. I think he was so proud when I wrote the book and just so excited that I was thinking this way. It was so interesting to have this traditionally trained father, this internist, read my book and go, wow, that's kind of interesting, Paul.

I mean, he's reading the chapter on lipids going, this isn't what I learned. Maybe maybe there's more I should be thinking about. So we've had a lot of conversations. And I mean, one of the reasons the whole reason I think about this stuff, Joe, is because I want people that I care about to be around and I want to be able to share that with other people so that they can experience their life better.

What are you going to tell him about the diarrhea, the disaster fance?

Because there is a diarrhea that you get from the carnivore that I only got for the IV for the first like two weeks or so. But my friend Tom Cigarroa tried it and his words were it's astonishing.

He said there's diarrhea. Is this thing I go do. It's no joke. I took some photos of my toilet bowl and it looks like a goblin threw up in there. I mean, it just just black tar. It was crazy.

Yeah. So what is that?

So there's physiologic changes in the human gut that happen when you stop fiber abruptly.

So we don't know entirely. But I think that the most compelling theory. I've heard or been able to come up with is it has to do with salts and you know, we talked about the bile earlier in the gallbladder and, you know, putting it on liver. So your bile is in your liver, on your right upper quadrant.

And when you eat meat or fat, your bile contracts, there's hormones. Cleese's the Kynan, you release bile. Bile is a combination of cholesterol. Bile, salts, bilirubin and bile salts are supposed to be reabsorbed in your small intestine.

So, you know, you have this stomach, a duodenum, A and ileum, which is your small intestine. Then you have the Yoshiko valve and the large intestine. Large intestine is like the colon. Right. And the colon goes up and over and down.

And so the IFES bile acids end up in the colon. They are cathartic, meaning they will cause diarrhea.

And so I think that for the majority of people, if they are going to do a transition from a five year full diet to a zero five or a lower fiber diet, you want to do it slowly, because I think that in the small intestine, the small intestine needs to catch up and reabsorb these bile acids.

If the bile assets move through the illogical valve into the colon, they'll cause diarrhea.

And so your body takes time.

And so I think what happened in your case, because I was following it closely, I was texting Marc Bell, I was texting Marc Bell. I was like, Joe having diarrhea C I mean, if he just send him this information, maybe it'll help him, you know? So what can you do to mitigate it?

You would you would want to you would want to go slowly on the fiber. So when I work with people and they get the diarrhea, I have Madoc avocado or something with a little bit of fiber to help because the fiber will bind up. The bile lasts a little bit. But in your case, it sounded like what happened was something adjusted and eventually stopped. And my suspicion is that the small intestine eventually catches up and says, hey, there's more bile acids, I'm going to reabsorb them.

They don't end up in the colon.

It was a dangerous two week.

Here's a little bit of avocado. Would have gone a long way, I think, for you. I got through some podcasts where I was like, boy, I barely made it out of there, just like saw some of those where I ran out of the room. I like what, clenching my butt cheeks. Look, I'm trying to make a diamond ran out of the room.

And so, again, that's why I think there's a lot of ways to do this. You know, it's not that I don't think the only way to benefit from the things we're talking about is to go 100 percent carnivore. I think it's you know, oh, I understand that meat and organs are critically important. Understand there's toxicity of plant foods on a spectrum.

And if a little bit of fiber helps you get through that, do that, you know, and if a little bit of fiber doesn't bother you, don't do it.

But for a lot of people, the complete elimination of fiber in their diets really helpful. It's a really amazing thing. How many people say less gas, less bloating, even less constipation when they remove fiber. So but a little bit of fiber can go a long way. -[[[p;'..........

And that sort of transitional disaster pants face the common perception of fiber is that it's essential that it cleans out your body and that to live without fiber, you're going to get constipated, you're going to have all these problems. Why is that not true?

There's also the fiber is such an interesting thing. So it's none of it's true if you actually look at the medical literature. There's no evidence that fiber improves constipation so fiber can give you bigger poops, but there's good meta analysis. There's interventional studies that show that fiber doesn't relieve the other symptoms of constipation, which are pain, difficulty with passage, bleeding, constipation, socks.

Nobody wants that.

But fiber will give you bigger poops that are usually more painful to pass. And fiber also causes a ton of gas and bloating for people. There's a really fascinating study from 2012. It's an interventional study with fiber. And they had three groups of people. I think it's 60 people.

They divide it into three groups of 20, and they all had idiopathic constipation. So the doctor doesn't know why you're backed up. One group fiber is normal, one group, moderate fiber, one group, zero fiber. Which group did the best? Zero fiber. How many people resolved that hepatic constipation? 100 percent.

What, 100 percent geny 100 percent.

It's in the constant zero fiber Jamy. It's in the constipation folder. What is the cause of constipation?

It's complicated. I don't think it's the fiber constipation.

Oh, not the meter. It's the let's see, stopping fiber constipation in the constipation folder.

Yeah. So you see. Stopping or reducing dietary fiber intake reduces constipation, its associated symptoms, that's bananas, so constipation is probably multifactorial.

It probably has to do with this meiosis, the overgrowth of the wrong type of organisms. I think it's potentially inflammatory in the gut. But in in these this interventional study, it completely reversed it in these people.

Well, when I was drinking kale shakes for a while, kale shakes in the morning, and it had a similar effect to the Carnivore diet in the first two weeks.

Like you just, whew, it opened up the canyon and lubed up the old water slide and things are just flying out of me. Maybe not a good thing.

Well, I think it was also I was doing it with MKT Oil, and I was I was adding fruits and all sorts of other stuff to the kale shakes. But I thought I was doing the right thing and I was feeling pretty good while I was doing it. But not absolutely not as good as I did when I went to the Carnivore diet. I just I think I was getting this burst of carbohydrates and sugars and nutrients and and also I was feeling good.

I was thinking because the poop was coming out so easily and quickly, I was like, this got to be good cleaning out the old pipes because that's what you want, right?

You just got to clean up. But I know that's what I was thinking of. My thought process was like all that fibrous plant material, which is great.

But I'm strong. I'm like, yeah, but that's not how it works at all. There's so much interesting stuff about fiber.

But I'll tell you, you know, I was a vegan. I was a raw vegan for seven months when I was a physician assistant. And I want to take this opportunity to apologize to the people I shared an office with because I was such an olfactory nightmare.

Oh, you're so. Oh, it was so bad joke.

Well, you're you're breaking down, fermenting all these things inside your gut, right?

It was just everything. I mean, people couldn't even be around me. You couldn't hold it in.

Oh, I mean, there's only so many farts you can hold in your intestines. Explode bad. That bad. They're that bad.

I mean, I always hoped, you know, that if you just hold your farts and they would come out as burps and it never worked and never worked.

And then when I was a vegan, I lost 25 pounds of muscle mass and all kinds of other.

Twenty five pounds from where you are now. Yeah. Wow. You must have been very, very thin, very skinny.

So I'm 170 to 175 now and I was around 140. So even maybe thirty pounds.

Wow. Thirty pounds of muscle mass. How did you feel. Not great.

And you did it for health because you thought it was a good thing to do. Yeah.

So it was the beginning of my medical career. It was probably fifteen years ago. I hadn't read the literature and the ideas are interesting.

Right. Right. The ideas are interesting. Meat causes problems. This is a pure diet. It's not cooked. It's what our ancestors have eaten. Except these are the far to back ancestors.

Yeah, there's a lot of people that think that going, you know, air quotes, plant based is the move for heart health. Yeah. For for, you know, to to be a healthy person. My friend, Qty Fletcher, he is a power lifter and he had a terrible diet at one point in time and wound up having heart disease and it runs in his family and he had to get a heart transplant. Oh, yeah. And so now he has a heart transplant and he has a new heart and he's exercising again.

And he's gone completely plant based. And he thinks it's a good thing for his health and for his body. And, you know, he used to be a guy with a lot of cheeseburgers and McDonald's shakes and stuff and just wasn't really that healthy. And now just kind of completely changed his diet. And I don't have the knowledge to tell him that that's not the way to make your heart healthy. Well, what would you say to me? I would.

I think that the first thing is I'm glad that he's making an intentional choice with his diet, like you said earlier. What he's doing now is probably better than the standard American diet.

Yes, if you are very careful about supplementation and you think about creatine and carnitine and COLENE and vitamin Katou and V12 and bioavailable proteins, I mean, you could sustain yourself on a vegan diet, in my opinion.

I don't I'm sure he's doing that. He's a very disciplined man. I don't think you're I don't think it's optimal, but I don't I would also encourage him not to ignore the evidence on polyunsaturated fatty acids.

And to be sure that with his transplanted heart that he is that that he's carefully watching it and looking at the right metrics and really looking at the right measures, which may give him some indication of atherosclerosis progression. So if somebody were to do a vegan diet with no vegetable oils, they might be able to do OK given they were getting enough calories, enough protein, enough of these nutrients and were supplementing with the right things.

But I fear that a lot of vegans are going to think canola oil, that's great. That's vegan or soybean oil. That's great.

And or they're going to eat, you know, these plant based garbage burgers which are full of this vegetable oil.

We've got to get to that. Yeah. That we have to get to.

But and it's just not and it's not it's not a precise enough approach. And I hope he's working with a cardiologist. So I would I would respect his choice 100 percent if he's doing good. That's amazing. But there's a lot of nuance there. And there are a lot of nutrients, like I mentioned earlier in the podcast, that are not found in plant foods that are only in animal foods will give him some of these he probably won't take.

Maybe he would maybe he would take the pills. Yeah, but if you could get him to just completely objectively and not disrespect his choice to become plant based, what would you say would be the optimal thing for someone to do, having recovered from heart failure in a heart transplant?

What would what would you recommend this is for Qty or just anyone?

Anyone. Let's just have a listen to this, because I want to send it to him. Right. But anyone in that particular, anyone without any ideology, what would you say would be the optimal thing to eat, eat like your ancestors, eat like the Hadza, you know, not your doctor.

So eat like eat, eat meat and organs as a center of your diet from well raised animals, roam ranch white oak pastures. Polly face farms don't fear the organ meats don't fear red meat. I really think I mean, there's tons of stuff in the book about why this information's bad. Know which plants are the most toxic, eliminate the most toxic plants and eliminate vegetable oils and processed sugars like the plague. And, you know, I think if you do that, you're going to thrive and I think you're going to feel really good.

Now, we're at a crossroads.

You know, like the mainstream medical establishment doesn't agree with this. And I'm fully ready. And I think this is going to become my life's work. You know, it's just it's really exciting to be in this place and say, hey, I think these ideas are wrong and they need to be refined. And I think that more people will benefit if we refine these ideas. I think people are suffering because of incorrect information foist upon us for the last 70 years by the mainstream medical establishment.

Well, it's fascinating when people follow along with the mainstream ideas and like professional athletes, they watch game changers and they go, well, that's it, I'm going to go plant based. And they're getting injured and they're not recovering well.

And they have all these issues like illness dropsonde unstability.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is it's a real concern.

And when you bring it up, people are, oh, here you go again with all your bullshit propaganda and it's been proven. Haven't you watched the documentary? Yeah, I watched it. I watched it. I've talked to experts. I'm not impressed by any of this. You know, I think you can do it. I think you can be healthy and you can live off of you can die the way you said before. But I don't believe it's the optimal way to do it.

I just don't I don't think it is for me. I think people like to think it's the optimal way to do it because it makes them feel better ethically and morally that they don't that they're not responsible for the death of animals, even though they absolutely are.

And I think that's where we need to shift the perspective. I think that vegan diet have become popular because they're a meme, because they've become an identity.

And that identity is something that we all identify with as humans being a kind of person, a kind of person, empathetic person. But the reality is that the actual practice of a vegan diet is nothing like that, nothing like that. There's a there's an Instagram handle. I think it's so true. Carnivore is vegan and it's such and it's not my hand. It's somebody else's hand. That's so true. If we're actually talking about empathy, talk about the least amount of suffering.

You raise one animal in an ecosystem that is cycle. That's the way it's been going for thousands, millions of years, maybe even take out animal ethically by hunting it, maybe even spend time in the wilderness while you're hunting an animal, maybe spend time with people while you're hunting animal. And I'll tell you. So I've hunted twice in my life. Jonathan Hunt this season with a bow, and I've done it twice before the bow. Both times that I killed an animal.

Walking up to that animal was one of the most spiritual experiences of my life. It was just this strike like responsibility, very psychodelic. Be a responsible human.

You took this life right now. I think that as humans, it's OK to to be a part of the cycle of life and death. And we will all die and we will all go back to the Earth at some point. These atoms that I am renting will return to the Earth. And so I think that it's OK to take life respectfully in a hunted way. But if more people did this and this is not necessarily scalable in twenty twenty, but I think if more people did this, it's like a sacrament.

And I don't mean that in any sacrilegious way, but it was just like it was one of the most clarifying things I've ever done to remind me be a good person. Here is the universal bounty to you. And I hope this doesn't sound like woo woo. But it was my personal. It's like here is the universal bounty to you in this moment, like you better be a good person because you are so fortunate to have this nutritious food here.

It's just very striking. I think it would I think it would change. And that's completely different than the vegan ideation that that were being harmful to animals or were being disrespectful. It was like, wow, it was almost like that animal gave me the gift, like be a better human.

While I had this thought before I started hunting that I was either going to become a vegetarian or is going to become a hunter. I had seen a lot of those documentaries in those videos online about factory farming.

And it's it's appalling. It's disgusting. It makes you sad. It makes you sick. And and I was trying to figure out what can I do? Like, would I be capable of killing an animal? I never killed an animal before. And then after I did, I went hunting with Steve Rinella on his television show. I shot a mule deer. We ate it over a fire.

And I said right away, I'm doing this from now on. This is what I'm doing, because it resonated and made sense. It felt good. It was a very difficult thing to do. It took days and days of hiking many, many miles in the mountains to find a mule deer and to shoot it and then to haul it out of there and then to cut it up and eat it and cook it or cook and eat it.

It was it was it was it's it's a weird word, spiritual, but it is a spiritual experience because it connected you with the life that sustains you like you were there. I looked at that animal when I squeeze that trigger off and watched it drop. And then when we were cutting it and hauling it out and eating liver and eating the heart and cooking meat over the fire immediately, it all made sense to me. I was like, OK, this feels so much different than buying meat in a store when I take a piece of elk meat.

I shot an elk last week in Utah. When I take a piece of elk me two weeks ago and I put that on the trigger, I season it, I put it there and I cook it and then I'm eating it. I'm feeding it to my family. I have a connection to that meat. I, I looked in the eyes of that elk. When I release that arrow, I watch it drop 15 seconds later. I felt the relief, I felt the happiness and I felt the gratitude that this this animal is going to be how I get my meat and hundreds of pounds of meat.

I'm going to give it to my friends. I give it to your tribe. Yeah. I love it. I love I love all that about. And the people that I've met through this pursuit have been some of the best people I've ever met in my life, some of the nicest, most disciplined, most warm, friendly, loving people. They're not animal haters. They're not cruel people. They're people who understand where their food comes from. And it's a different connection to food.

The hunters have a different idea of life and death than the average person who's shielded by it, who's using their credit card to pay for supermarket hitmen to make cheeseburgers for them. And that's that's not the way to go. And I know that it's not sustainable for everybody to do it, like you said, in 20/20. But there's a lot of things that everybody, not not everybody becomes a black belt in jujitsu right now. Everybody becomes a race car driver.

Not everybody becomes a doctor. It's fucking hard to do. All right. There's a lot of shit that's hard to do. Like I'm not saying you have to do it, but for a person who chooses to have a connection, it is available for you. But the price of entry is difficult. It's hard to learn how to do it properly. It's really hard to learn how to do it with a bow. It's it requires a lot of physical exertion.

There's a lot of workouts that I do all throughout the year, specifically my cardio workouts that I'm doing so that I have endurance in the mountains. That's why I do, because I've been exhausted trying to make it up a hill, especially my friend Cam Haines hunting with that fucking guy, just trying to follow him, just trying to walk behind him. Forget about running.

I'm doing it because I understand that come the moment of truth, like you have to be at your best and it's not easy. But if you don't want to do that, you can get meat from sustainable farms.

You can get meat from places like Polly Face Farms. Put Your Box, which is a great company. That's one of the sponsors of my podcast. All of their all their meat is grass fed grass finished from sustainable places that are ethically raised animals. You can get that food. You can you can get it the right way. You don't have to hunt it. But if you want to hunt it, that's available to most people are not going to have the time or even the desire to do it.

But it can be done. But I don't like that argument. Or people say, well, it's not sustainable for everybody, but neither is most things that are hard to do.

Most things that are hard to do. You're not going to do you know, most people are not going to win the Crossett games. Does that mean we should stop the Crossfade games? Well, it's not sustainable. Most people can't do it. What does that mean? We should stop marathons because most people are going to run a marathon. There's hard things to do that are very rewarding. And most of those things come with like there's there's a immense satisfaction in completing the.

And this is where hunting is different than any other source of gathering food, because it is it's a discipline.

It's in many ways an athletic pursuit, and then it also sustains you and sustains your family. It's a very different connection with food.

And I think it's a spiritual pursuit. And like you said, every time you eat, you have a story. Yeah. You remember, like, every time you eat that elk, you got the bowl. You're probably going to remember that time in the wilderness.

And think about if that was all the food you ate, every food had a story like that.

How are you going to live your life in a different way? And so one of the things that's been so interesting for me recently is realizing that the Carnivore diet and thinking about animal based diets was just a stepping stone. It was kind of on the entree to think about a broader concept, about the way that we as humans have forgotten that there's this broad amnesia. And I've thought about this and kind of called it the remembering, just this idea that it's about more than the way we eat.

It's about the way we live on the earth. Being in nature and doing things like hunting and getting back to these roots like this to me is what gets me really excited that we're starting to think about the way our ancestors ate and then ancestrally consistent diet. But we also need to think about how the heck did they live? And I've heard you talk about this so many times, but social media is such a double edged sword and it is such a, I think, a destructive thing.

This new documentary out social dilemma like it's amazing. We are not communicating with humans in the same way that we used to. We're not over a fire. You know, you got to cook that first media were Steve Rinella over a fire. That's a frickin human connection. That's real.

I remember him laughing because he said, So what do you think? And I said, I'm doing this. From now on, I go, This is it. I'm a hunter.

And he started laughing because he was it was a satisfaction. It was like, all right, you know, it's like a happy thing where he saw that I was hooked. Welcome to the show.

Was it? Yeah, I was in 100 percent. And I've been in those 2012. I've been in one hundred percent for the last eight years. I think about it all day long, especially now that I've become a bow hunter. Like, it's funny, I was with my friend John Dudley and we were at a UFC fight. John was in the crowd right behind me. It was a big fight about to go on. And I said, this is what I'm thinking.

I was thinking about archery, that's sort of thing. And I was pulling a bow back. And I was when I'm in my like any time since it's boring to me. I think about archery. Someone's talking about something I'm not really interested in. I'll listen. But the back of my head, I'm thinking about center in my pen, center in the bubble, drawn back poem with the scapula getting a surprise release. It's like it's a massive obsession.

And there's that's there's a different spiritual connection to bow hunting, I think, because it is so difficult and it is so physical and it requires this being in the moment in a way that nothing else does, because there's so many moving parts that you have to align correctly in order to to execute.

Oh, it's amazing. It's one of the hardest things I've ever done. And I just got a new release. I just got one of the thumb releases. And so I'm all over the place now. It's super frustrating.

Yeah, but I love I love that pulling with the scapula and I love that surprising release.

And have you ever used a tension base release like a silverback?

This one is a wise choice. So I know what it is. I think it's. Yeah, yeah. The thing about those is you cheat, you hit that button with your thumb. Right. You know, if you had a real good coach. No, I need to talk to John down. You should go with Dudley.

He would put you on a attention base. Really?

Well, people who understand what we're talking about is it's hard in the moment of truth to when you're anticipating the shot to not flinch or move. And with archery, it is so important the shot goes off in a surprise manner.

And I'll say this for most people, because there are a lot of people that are extremely good archers that don't do it this way, but they have practiced their way by pulling the trigger and consciously pulling the trigger, what they call a command release. They practiced it for so long they could pull it off. My friend Cam Haynes is one of those people, my friend Remy Warren. He's another one of those people. There's there's great archers. There's a guy named Tim Gillingham.

He's one of the best archers on Earth. He wins world championships and he pulls the trigger. He has a thumb, a finger trigger, and he pulls it and he beats everybody. And he's very, you know, very well celebrated as one of the best archers in the world. But for the most part, for most people, you're better off having a surprise release. You're better off taking the idea of the shot going off and you just go through the motions of getting to go out, but you really have no idea when it's going to go off.

Yeah, but it's hard to do with something. Yeah, really. A lot of people cheat. They pretend they're doing that like, yeah, I'm getting a surprise release and I'm watching my pitch. You're hitting that shit with your thumb. I know what you're doing.

I think I'm cheating everybody. I need a good coach. I need a good coach. Yeah, I mean, it's hard man. It's hard, but I love how everything kind of drops away.

And I'll tell you, Joe, for people that haven't been hunted, I've actually never killed anyone with a rifle. So I don't know if it's the same way. You can tell me if it is the first time I drew back on an animal, it was like.

It's like I got hit with adrenaline. I mean, you know, like your heart is just pow. It's such like that's a primal instinct. It's like primal. Whoa, there's something cool about that. And it's like everything fades. It's absolute flow state if you can go through the heart pounding. But it's a it's a special experience when you pull back on an animal.

My elk in Utah this year was very unusual in that I had to run to get to the to the waterhole before the elk did. I was in a patch of trees and I was hidden and I heard the elk screaming and we knew there was a waterhole here and he was trotting down and there was no I tried a couple spots, but there was no clean path to shoot through the trees. And I managed to do it quickly and quietly enough so that he didn't see me moving and I was hiding behind trees.

But I knew I had to get all the way to the waterhole before him. So I had to run and I had to jump over logs. So there's these down trees. I'd hop on top of these trees and jump over them. So I ran about, you know, 50, 60 yards until I got to this spot where he was. I really had a sprint. And then I had to calm myself down and I looked at him, arranged him.

I and I was I had the bow in my hands. He looks up at me and I drew back as he was looking at me. And it was because I'm in full camo with gloves, face, mask, head, the whole full set of gear. He was like, what the fuck is that?

And then, you know, I probably had a second before he realized what I was before he was going to bolt. And I release the arrow right at that moment.

So it was intense and it was super adrenaline packed because I knew I had to run to. So there was all this like like he's at the water hole. Irane, Jimmy steps away from the water hole and then he looks up and as he's looking up, I'm just drawn back. And I think I had a second or two before. He was like, oh, that's a fucking person man dressed up like a tree.

But it was so it was so it was it was a moment where if I hadn't prepared properly, I would have never been able to pull it off.

If I wasn't physically in shape, I would never be able to run there. And how my heart rate dropped down if I wasn't confident enough in my shooting that shot so many thousands and thousands and thousands of arrows I wouldn't be able to execute because it was a weird shot, too, was downhill. Fifty two yards. It was a long shot.

There's a lot going on, but I'll never forget that when I eat that food, I think about that animal. Absolutely.

It's like such a cool thing to have the story wrapped up in all of it. It's so rich. It's such a different experience than we get as humans.

Sometimes I think about the irony of twenty, twenty, or even the last century that we have. We've put ourselves in digital worlds to work on computers indoors to make fake numbers in a bank account or green pieces of paper that allow us to go hike and do the things that we were doing in our whole.

I mean, how enjoyable is hiking, how enjoyable is being in the wilderness?

How enjoyable is hunting and just just hiking alone is cleansing, right? Like there's something about being around trees. I don't know what it is. I mean, whether it's the oxygen that you get from them or whether it's just a signal, a signal to your body that this is a natural way to exist, to be in the wilderness, in nature.

It feels good for you like to just be walking through and just seeing it enriches your soul.

There's something about looking at mountains and trees and like a stream that it's this crazy natural beauty, this natural artwork that your your senses react to this and this incredibly pleasing way, like, wow, look, I remember we we came up with this ridge and there's a creek below us.

And this is beautiful Green Hill and there's a mountain behind it. And I heard this bull elk on the hill above a screen.

And I'm looking at this. I'm like, this is gorgeous. It's so pretty. Like everything about it just made my whole body just feel good. Like like a drug. Like a happy drug. Cell phone didn't work. You know, there's no signal out there. It's just peaceful, just peaceful. Just just nature the way it was for who knows how many hundreds of thousands of years for people ever even came here.

I think that's what they're remembering is about and that it's like there's something bigger than us. And I'm not religious, maybe a little spiritual in nature, but I've had the same experiences on a long run or just being in the wilderness.

Like there's something here. There's a connection that we have to this is this wild world that we evolved through that we don't we're just we're like neutered when we're out here with the concrete and we're looking at buildings and it's, you know, the way we live. And it's there's a lot of great benefits to living in cities and all that stuff. But there's something about it.

When you're in a car, you just, you know, sitting at a desk, you're muted, you're muted and neutered both those things. It's like you're not connected to the wild world. I agree with you completely.

And I think that in some ways, I suspect that it's built into our consciousness, just like that ERP study that I showed you with meat. And I think there have been similar e.g. studies with nature scenery that we just ultimately were on a.

And we will try to pretend that we're not and I think that we're trying to become the best animal that we can be the most ethical kind of pathetic animal, but we still I think that we would do well to consider the fact that if we discard everywhere we've come from, we may end up in a position that's pretty miserable for humans.

Yeah, if we discard wilderness, if we discard what I believe are the most ancestrally consistent foods, if we discard the patterns of human interaction, we're just going to go further down.

My fear is that this is inevitable and that what we are going to become is some sort of a symbiotic, kinetic thing where we're part we're going to be a cyborg, we're going to be part electronics, we're going to be more immersed in the electronic world than even we are now. And that this trend of becoming addicted to your phones and constantly online and all these different things that we all see with people, that this is just a step in this inevitable process.

But right now, we're not there. So right now that is not enriching to us. It doesn't feel good. This might be what a person is a thousand years from now. It might be out of our control. We might be just the way of entropy, the way the world works, the way of innovation, the way of just the just the evolution of the the biological thing that is a human being. It might inevitably move in that direction.

But it's not that way right now. And if you live that way right now, you'll be miserable, you'll be depressed, you'll be disconnected. And that's why you see all these people that are living online most of the time on Twitter, just fucking arguing and throwing shit at each other like insane patients.

They're like people in a mental institution and they really are mentally unwell. They're they're in a depressed, crazy, agitated state most of the day arguing with people. And this is, I would imagine, like I don't know what the number is, but maybe 40 percent of all interactions on Twitter are people yelling at each other. It's so scary.

And I've experienced it firsthand because when you start I mean, I'm new to this whole thing, you know, like I went to residency. I didn't expect this to happen. I got interested in stuff. I started talking about my ideas.

And then suddenly you put ideas out there and there are people slinging shit at you all the time, angry, angry and charlatans calling you a clown or an idiot.

It's like, you know, like, why would you do that to me in person? I don't think so. Like, I would love I love debating people.

I love having respectful conversation.

That's what we're about. You know, if I'm wrong, awesome. Because then we understood what's right, not you. That's ultimately and I want to live up to that. You know, I think there's all of us have ego, right?

That's the best version of you, though, right? Like when you were confronted with an idea that's contrary to what you believe, you recognize it and you adjust.

And I've had to you know, when I first started to Kanwar diet, I thought, OK, all carbohydrates are bad. Even in the last year and a half, I've kind of said, you know what, maybe there's some nuance here.

And it's so strange because there's definitely religiosity in the Carnivore community that I don't identify with. And there were people just, you know, hating. Well, there's a lot of people in the Carnivore diet that are basically meat eating vegans.

I know. And it's it's a it's a sad thing. It is weird. Like, they they just have this idea in a way that is it's they they've got an identity, you know, and their identity is meat eating.

And I don't know I don't think that's a good way to sell it.

I don't think it is. I think we've got to move past that and say, you know what, it's about human health. Yeah. It's about people being able to live in the best way possible.

There's a lot of ways to do that. And if these tools are unique, they certainly challenge the mainstream. So I think they're valuable. I think are challenging. The status quo is is indispensable because we have to have the dissenting voices. Sometimes the dissenting voices are wrong and sometimes the dissenting voices are right. But we can't silence the dissenting voices and they're valuable.

And I think it's I love the I love the disruptors. I love disruptive ideas. They challenge us. And but as a society, we rebel against disruptive ideas. I mean, look at the council culture that's happening now. Yeah. And so the Carnivore diet and animal based diets, these are disruptive ideas. And at the same time, I think there could be really helpful. But let's let's understand. Let's find out.

Well, I think when I was younger, I would look at any idea that was contrary to mainstream is likely being incorrect. But then as I've gotten older, I realize, like most people are not really paying that much attention. And then when you find out how little when it comes to nutrition, how little nutrition education doctors receive, so many doctors that are giving you advice like that. Doctors say you don't need to take vitamins, just eat a well-balanced diet.

And I'm like, what are you talking about? First of all, you look like shit, like, tell me what a well-balanced diet is. You have a gut. This is a crazy conversation. You look like your shoulders would rip apart if you tried to pick up a piece of weight.

I think they would herniated disc in their back. A lot of people that are just there's their their physical condition is so poor and yet they're giving advice about sustaining their physical condition. I'm like, come on, man. You know very little about nutrition. This is crazy that you're giving advice and then you start to look at people outside the norm like yourself and you go a. This guy has spent so much time thinking about this stuff, maybe he's got some insight that other people have not acquired.

We hope so. And that's why we have productive, respectful conversations, you know. Yes. And then people can decide because ultimately it's just about everybody understanding what's going to benefit them the most.

So I want to just before we get going, I wanted to talk about the benefits of like what?

When you talk about grass fed grass finished meat, what is the nutritional benefit of that over in terms of, like essential fatty acids and nutrient content over animals that are fed grain?

So if you look at the absolute nutritional content of grass versus green grass finished versus green finished animals, they're pretty similar. OK, what's different about grass fed animals, in my opinion, is what they're not fed, what they're not subjected to. So you remember that the majority of any cows life is spent on a pasture. So most cows are eating grass for the majority of their life. When you bring them to a feedlot, they're Kofoed.

You know, they're clustered animals and they're fed grain so concentrated or cluster of animal feeding operations and they're fed grains and cookies and plastic and waste products. And the grains keys. Yeah, they're fed like waste products. They're fed like cookies and MGIC.

Yeah. Yeah. Why. They've had plastic. I think they're just trying to fatten them up. Sometimes it's just in the field. Yeah. Yeah. There's a reference in my purpose.

I may be mixed in with stuff that used to be able to feed them. Incinerator waste. I think they can't feed them incinerator waste anymore by incinerator waste.

Yeah. Like what are they burning in the incinerator. Either other animals or just waste products.

Yeah.

Oh so they're not I mean they're not even feeding the cows, they're not feeding the cows organic greens first of all.

So the cows are full of legal plastic content in animal feed could harm human health. What small bits of plastic packaging from waste food makes its way into animal feed as a part of the UK's permitted recycling process? Also, it's so they they're not penalised for accidental plastic. So it's it's allowed micro plastic.

It doesn't seem like they're doing it on purpose. Maybe not. Yeah, it's part of it. And so this is what they're showing is that their poop nets, their feed pellets.

So those little pieces of blue and shit, that's plastics.

Oh yeah. Oh, gross. And so you got to figure the grains that are making that are moldy. Right. The Greens are sprayed with glyphosate and atrazine, which is a known zino estrogen. So it's a it's a pesticide that turns male frogs into females. It's feminising look at that six.

And now you're going to the Alex Jones territories. They're making the frogs gay.

It's about 50000 tons of unused food from leaves of loaves of bread to Mars bars.

A save from landfills each year in the U.K. by being turned into animal feed, whoa. So this is what this is what grass finished cows are not fed. So it's you got to figure the fat of a grass fed animal. You got you talked about this with Frank von Hippel Franklin, right? Yes.

You know, the the polycyclic aromatic you know, the persistent organic pollutants, the dioxins. So you've got to imagine that cows eating good grass are going to have less of that in their fat.

Yes, it's in the it's in the soil. So the longer a farm has not been using those, the better. But the cleaner the cow, it's going to have less of that in its fat. Less less of this, less glyphosate, glyphosate, water soluble. So probably in the muscle atrazine is fat soluble, but this is the kind of stuff that's never been really looked at.

So grass feeding is not as much about the increase in nutrient content. Grass fed grass finished or green finished. They're both nutrient rich, but the grass finished is going to have less of the bad stuff in the meat and less of the bad stuff in the fat, in my opinion.

And it's also a thousand times more ethical and part of an ecosystem, which is the only way humans are going to persist on this planet.

What about the essential fatty acid content of grass fed, grass fed beef? Is it similar?

Pretty frickin similar. Really pretty similar. So is the talk of it being more nutritious?

Is it just propaganda or is it just it? I think it's wishful thinking.

I think it's probably wishful thinking. I mean, I think there are there's no shortage of reasons to eat grass fed grass, Finnish meat, but they look different.

That's what kills me. Like when if I buy domestic cattle, if I would buy domestic beef and I buy grass fed beef, it looks closer to like what I get from an elk or a bison. It looks like a wild game. It's red and dark, whereas if I buy grain fed, it's like pinkish maybe.

Yeah. I mean, they might be depleting some nutrients, at least in the studies that I've seen. They're they're comparable.

Comparable. But I mean, maybe it's just the quantity that you're eating, because when I look at it, I'm like, well, something's going on. It's a different color.

Yeah. And you see the same thing in fish too. I mean, certainly you can imagine there's going to be more carotenoids from the grass if the cow is finished on grass versus the grains, which are not going to be. You see that with salmon. You know, they have to give salmon these coloring pills, right. If they're farmers to get them to make the flesh.

Not not you know, not pale. Yeah, not pale. And sometimes you'll see that with grass fed fat, it's more it's more orange because it has more carotenoids. But at a basic level, I mean, I do think there are probably nutritional differences, but there's not good literature to support it at this point. And there is literature to support it with wild game.

In terms of protein content, yeah, it's far more protein rich, like a piece of elk is much more protein rich than a piece of beef. You get like an ounce per ounce. I think it's almost double.

Is that because of the lower fat? Is that because so much more lean? It's a good question. I don't know if the the fat in a beef steak could be that prevalent where it's fifty percent now.

I wouldn't be fifty percent, but I just think it's an athlete.

I think when you're dealing with a cow, you're dealing with something that's kind of just chilling and eating grass. When you're if you eat an elk, you're dealing with something that's running from mountain lions and wolves.

I mean, it's just a different kind of animal.

I mean, I prefer venison and elk when I have it. I love the gamey flavor and everything so.

Well, do you know what you're saying? If you eat liver that it gives you, like, this kind of boost? Yeah, nothing gives me a boost like elk meat.

There's something about that dark red gold, that rich meat that when you eat, it's like you just you feel great.

It just it just like this. It's rewarding to your body. Your body is saying, oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, give me some more of this. This is what we need to recover. This is what we need to rebuild cells is what we need to rebuild tissue.

Would be super interesting to do some studies on that, you know, to take the meat that you've hunted to put it through, like gas chromatography, mass back, do some analyses and look at it compared to like grass fed beef or. Yeah, see if it's like excess carnitine or maybe some more COLENE or carnitine or something. I'm sure there's something in there that makes it special. I mean, it's wild.

Well, acetylcholine is a nootropic and it's one of the ingredients in alpha brain. Is that the same thing as Colene that you're talking about or is at a different kind of Colene?

Colleen is a precursor for acetylcholine, so acetylcholine is a neurotransmitter. And I think Alpha Brain has whooper zeena, which is a nicita cholinesterase inhibitor, and that makes that allows more acetylcholine in the synapse. So if you increase acetylcholine in the synapse, it can be a nootropic. Absolutely. About COLENE is a precursor for acetylcholine and phosphates. It'll COLENE, which is the phospholipid that makes up all the cells of our body and the myelin sheath on neurons.

And again, really, really, really hard to get an optimal amount of COLENE without eating animals.

That's why this won't bring it up. That's why it's there has been studies that have connected eating meat to brain function.

Oh yeah. The creatine too. Yeah. And this is very controversial because people get up in arms about this.

I don't I think it's pretty straightforward, extremely straightforward scientifically, but I don't think it's kind of the plant based folks get very they get their.

And what about this one in a big way, so Jamie, in the folder, nutrients at the there's one called creatine enhanced veggie. There have been interventional studies on vegans and they give them 20 grams of creatine for five days, which is a loading dose, and they get smarter.

And what are they using for the source of creatine? I think they're just giving them synthetic creatine. And how does one make synthetic creatine?

I think there are a couple of different ways to make it.

We'd have to talk to your manufacturer, let's say, consumed either a placebo or 20 grams of creatine supplement for five days. Creatine supplementation did not influence measures of verbal fluency and vigilance.

But in vegetarians, rather than those who consume meat, creatine supplements resulted in better memory. Interesting.

And there's another study in the irresponsive of dietary style supplementation of creatine. Decrease the variability in the responses to a choice reaction time task.

Creatine is a critical nutrient for humans, for the human brain. There's another one also Jamy there. This one's even a little bit better study. It's creatine bpy. Do you see that one? Yeah, so oral creatine, Munno hydrate supplementation improves brain performance, a double blind, placebo controlled crossover trial. I have read that that creatine can be a neutropenic. Do you take it or do you just get it from me?

So, you know, I think that the study pretty clearly showed that if you're eating what I would consider to be an ancestrally appropriate amount of meat, you don't benefit from more. There's a place at which you can saturate your muscles with creatine. It's about five grams a day, which is about the amount of creatine and one pound of meat. A lot of I eat more than one pound of meat per day. But if you're eating one pound of meat per day, you're probably a supplement known to supplement creatine, supplementing it.

Increase your muscle strength, though, because that's what a lot of people do. That's what they do it for.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've done it. Maybe kind of fat like a gain.

Well, it can cause Whuffie you can super supplement and you might be able to retain more water, you know. Yeah. But I think if you're eating a pound of meat per day plus you're probably not going to get a whole lot of performance benefit supplementing with creatine.

But the gaining the water, though, I think was why people like your muscles are getting larger. Because of that. I think they felt stronger.

Right, in people who are creatine deficient. Certainly supplementation is powerful. And again, there's no creatine in plant foods. Right. You can make a small amount of it in your body, but there's a lot of evidence that it's inadequate.

But you would recommend if someone is on a plant based diet, they probably should supplement creatine. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely.

And again, there's so many nutrients like this, creatine, B, 12 niacin that are that are probably essential in the formation of the human brain. You know, we talk about we didn't talk about it today. Maybe we can if we have time or offline. You know, if you look at the way the human brain grew, we got all the time in the world.

This isn't the presidential debates. This is the Joe Rogan experience. Well, it's the Internet. I love it.

You can just go as long as you need to make your point. If you go to the evolution folder, Jamie, there's a brain size change graphic. That's pretty cool. So this is a graphic from my book. And you can look at the the size of the human brain based on the cranial vault size. And this is fascinating. And there's a lot of theories as to why this happened.

But some of the most compelling, in my opinion, are around the advent of hunting in humans. And when you had Bill von Hippel on. So you can see here, this is millions of years on the x axis and the size of the human brain. On the Y axis, you have the primate ancestors, Australopithecus, Homo habilis, Homo erectus, fire and then Neanderthals and then Homo sapiens. So something really clearly this is another this is another Tony Hawk skate ramp.

Right. What the heck happened there? Something happened. I think the most compelling ideas are right there that I labeled in the graph that around two million years ago, we see the occurrence of stone tools, these by facial tools. These are shuli and tools and evidence for hunting cut marks on animals, bones and evidence from mass animal graves.

So this is really cool. I would postulate that humans becoming hunters, becoming hunters made us human.

So, you know, Steve Rinella like doing the happy dance right now, because he's right. I like be hunting animals, made us human by providing indispensable nutrients like creatine that were primarily leasers or allowed our brains to grow in this special way. It's kind of written into who we are.

It's probably a bunch of other coinciding factors, too, right?

Well, I mean, other people hypothesize that people hypothesize fire. The oldest evidence we have for fire is about a million years after you start to see that cranial vault size increase.

So that was because of the increase in the nutrients that were bioavailable because of cooking things over fire, supposedly.

But what's interesting is that nutrients and meat or bioavailable, whether it's raw cooked nutrients in plant foods or at least in tubers, are more bio available when you cook them or at least the calories. Are you ever try to eat a raw sweet potato? I used to do that a lot when I was vegan.

No, not a good thing as a nasty, nasty, not a good thing. I've never tried it.

Have you ever listened to Terence McKenna and his disgusting tape, The Stone?

Yeah. Yeah, fascinating idea. I mean, a crazy. Yeah. Kind of theory. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely possible as well.

His brother Dennis makes a very compelling argument for it as well, because you go his brother Dennis is a scientist and he goes deep into the actual physical changes to the brain and to synapses and to the body's ability to produce language that occur while under the influence of psilocybin. And he thinks you think, well, it could be there. There were happening at the same time. I mean, this is also they think that it might have made people better hunters because psilocybin, particularly in low doses, increases visual acuity and probably makes you more creative to makes you figure out how to hunt better and maybe responsible for the development of tools and other forms of creativity that benefited human beings to evolve and become better hunters.

I've done it once, only once, only once. I want to do it again. But I think about it set in setting and kind of respectfully. The first time I did it was a few years ago and so I'd never done it before in my life. So it's only within the first few years that I tried it last few years. But my experience was profound and I don't doubt any of that is what I experienced. It was clarity. I felt so at home in the natural world.

Yeah, it was incredible. And I was I was out hiking in Seattle where I was doing my residency, and I was with a friend and we were by a lake and it was just me and the wilderness. I was by myself. I was just I had a different connection with trees and plants. And it felt so different. It was just like a door opened to this. This experience was like a whole different unique thing. And I was with a friend.

He had to go back. He was on call and I said, just leave me here. I just want to I never wanted to leave. I felt so at home in the wilderness. And so, you know, I hope that it's probably controversial, maybe not in twenty for a mainstream position to say I've used psilocybin, you know, so it's now being used in trials for PTSD.

And, yeah, I mean, it's incredibly powerful, which actually gets to an important point that I should make about plants, which is that I don't want anyone to think that I'm that I'm against plants as medicine. I think there are many plant compounds that are very valuable for humans, medical marijuana, psilocybin, clearly impactful for humans. But there's a real dividing line between that and using plants as food or using plants to make you better every day. So we should just say that.

But, yeah, I mean, my experience with psilocybin was profound. And I think that it's something that I hope more trials will happen with, with the FDA.

But I was so curious, you know, I was reading about it. I knew they were doing studies at Hopkins and they were doing studies at NYU.

And I thought it's I almost felt irresponsible as a physician, not knowing what this experience was like. I wanted to to to to change to turn off the default mode network. I wanted to see what it was like without ego.

And it was a it was an incredible experience. Having had that experience, I don't doubt it. When I was at White Oak Pastures a couple of weeks ago, I was walking through a pasture with cow pies and they were psilocybin sinuses growing.

And I was like, stone tape. I just make sense that they would try it, right?

I mean, they flip over cow patties. If you watch primates, they do it to get bugs and grubs and it makes sense. They would try the mushrooms if they did try it and started tripping and found it to be incredibly euphoric and enjoyable. I would imagine they would consume it quite a bit with Terence McKenna, as research shows, is that it corresponds with a climate change and the decreasing of the rainforest and it's resending into grasslands and that that would also increase the number of ruminants and these cattle that were these undulates that were leaving these piles of shit and then these mushrooms that grow on them.

I make it totally makes sense. I'd never seen it before. And I was like, that's actually real. Yeah, they do grow.

It's it's a fascinating theory, you know, but who knows? Listen, man, this was an awesome talk. I really appreciate it. Your book, The Carnivore Code is available right now. Is there an audio? There's an audio I read. I read. Thank you. I'm so glad you do the reading because most. People are going to fuck up half of the words in this thing. It's very complicated. You do a fantastic job of breaking this down, though, and the fact that you do this all on memory with no carbohydrates.

It's quite amazing that a little bit of honey today. Well, not a lot, definitely. Definitely in ketosis right now and some grass fed bison.

All right. And Paul Saladino, the Carnivore code. Thank you very much, brother. Thanks for having me on. Brothers in Arms. It was very fun tonight. You by everybody.

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