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Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.


The Joe Rogan experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.


All right, what's happening, baby? Good to see you.


Oh, likewise. It's been a long road for both of us.


It has been a long road, man. Yes. I think I first met you in 1997.


I don't know the dates, but I remember meeting you officially are in my memory in New Orleans or somewhere around there, when I was sitting in an auditorium and you came in and sat down next to me. And at that time, people used to bother me all the time. And so I was getting some fresh air and away from everyone. And you came up and sat down and I was in my head. I was like, Oh, no, I just want some peace. And you rolled up and you were totally cool. I was like, Oh, that guy's cool. We had a good session wrapping.


Yeah, I remember first meeting. When you talk about the early days of the UFC, You are one of the real original legends of MMA. I mean, you were one of the very first guys, and you were one of the very first guys. First of all, you're one of the very first guys, if not the first to wear gloves, which I always thought was very smart. I know Vitor, I think, was one of the first. No. Who was the very first? Was it you?


I don't know. The people out there in the Internet world say this Melton Bowen guy. He was a striker, boxer guy in the early UFC. I did not get the idea from him at all. And who was the other guy with the one glove?


Oh, yeah. He just died recently. Damn it.


I forgot his name. It was back in the days with the Fred Etish. Art Jimerson.


Art Jimerson. Yes.


Fred Etish.


That's right.


Fred Etish. And Harold Howard and all those guys. Yes. And at the time, I had just getting out of jail for beating up a cop's son, and he used his position to his dad, make things go the way for the prosecution, even though he deserved to get beat up, and I obliged him. But I was going back and forth from a halfway house to work from the guy that got me into the show. And we stopped off at a Dix Sporting Goods store, big box sporting goods store like that. I don't think it was Dix, but it was something like that. And they were bag gloves. And I put them on and I go, these would be perfect, but they had a post in them, so you couldn't really wrestle with them. And I was like, I could take the post out. I ended up cutting it off, and it was just a clear plastic thick tube that you could hold on to. So I got rid of that and I go, these are perfect. And I think they were a Harbinger gloves. And I knew Because I've been in hundreds of street fights, altercations.


That's where I came from, although I've wrest since I was eight years old. But I used to beat people up on the street that- That deserved it. Yeah, Absolutely. There's not one guy out there that didn't want to do the same thing to me. I was just better at it. So I knew my hands would get hurt. And I'm like, You can't Can't fight three times in one night without your hands getting busted up. So I cut those out and I go, These are perfect. I could wrestle in them. As I said, I had wrestled my whole life, and they were perfect.


Did you have hand wraps on?


No, no hand wrap.


Just the gloves? Yeah. Did you wrap your wrists or anything? No. Nothing? What was the law back then? What were the rules, rather? What were the rules in for? You were allowed to wear wrestling shoes. You were allowed to hit the nuts back then. In your first fight, you were allowed to pull hair, hit the nuts.


You could do anything. Until I came along. Anyways, I can't even tell you what you couldn't do, but you couldn't bite and you couldn't eye gouge. Those were the only two rules.


I think fishhooking, right?


No, that was me.


Oh, really? You started?


I introduced them to fishhooking. So at the fighters meeting, they have these meetings with all the fighters, and they all sit in there and, I guess, think they're badass, but I guess they are in their own world. So they're all sitting around and Big John McCartney was up there explaining the rules, and I think he is having trouble since there wasn't any. So at the end of that, I him, I said, I had the gloves with me, and I said, Hey, can I wear these? And in his big, bellowing, goofy voice, he goes, Oh, if you want to wear them, go head thinking I was some fool when, in fact, I was thinking everybody else were fools. They've never really been in a fight and your hands get busted up.


Yeah, I thought the first time I saw you wearing them, I'm like, That guy's smart. And when you knocked out, was it John Matua? Matua, yeah. Matua. John Matua. When you knocked him out, I was like, See, you can still generate insane power, but you don't hurt your hands.


Absolutely. And I didn't hurt my hands, although at the end of that fight, not that fight, but you fought three times in one night, and I think I busted up my hand. It didn't break it, but it busted up where I had to go to the hospital and get it X-rayed, and I got to go. I didn't want to go because I was a kid, and no one sends me to the hospital, even myself. My busted up hands now I'll be all right. But my father talked me into going. So I went there, and there all my opponents were all stretched out. And I'm saying, Oh, well, how are you doing? I'm just passing through. So they X-rayed it and said I was all right and went back to the cocktail party and had some fun.


Did you have any injuries during your career?


Oh, sure. I mean, I fought when I needed knee surgery against Feroza Zozo. I couldn't run. I couldn't do anything. And I ended up taking the fight. I told them I didn't want to fight. And then back in those days, they had ways of stacking the cards against you. And so the owner of the show at that time says, Hey, show up. You got a small... You have a boxer your first fight, so that's not going to be a big deal. And he goes, then you got a little guy, like a 200-pound guy that was from Shamrock's camp. Was it a Bolander? Jerry Bolander. Yeah. And you can fight him. And he's nothing because he's 200 pounds. You throw him around like a rag doll. And I'm like, okay. He's talking me into it, realizing he's just trying to sell his show and get it over. And I'm like, yeah, Well, I'm never wanted to say no to a fight. And so I said, Okay, you talk me into it. I'll show up. But I couldn't run. I couldn't do anything. And jog one time around the track of 400, I couldn't do it. So I go and take the boxer, make short work of him because boxing is good if you're going to box and stand up in a ring, but you're not going to go anywhere in a fight just with boxing as a skill.


It might help you throw a punch and that thing. But if your main plan of attack is boxing, you're going to get taken down, and you can't box from your back. So anyways, back to the show, I take short work of him, and I'm like, All right, so I got this little 90 pounder, 190 pounder, and make short work of him. And I think I was supposed to fight Mark Coleman at that time. And I was like, Oh, well, we'll see who's tougher and not get taken down, and we'll just throw punches. And he's not really, at that time, very skilled on his feet. So I had at least a fighter' chance at the whole deal. And so you have these dressing rooms that are screened off. And there's an opponent, or not an opponent, alternate, big guy, going crazy, making all this noise. He sounded like an elephant running around in a cage. I'm going, What the hell is that guy doing? I go, He's not even fighting. He's just an alternate. Well, it turns out it comes for us to go in with Bolander, and what happens? Oh, he pulls out. Why did he pull out?


Oh, he just He couldn't make it. And I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And I just fell off the turnip truck. And next thing I know, I'm fighting this 300-pound plus guy who's all jacked up on God knows what. And going, crazy. Who was it? Feroza. Oh. So I went out there, and this is at the advent of referees. And I don't care about whether you're losing, never have. I'm always down for the fight and the battle of fighting and getting bloody, sweating, getting punched and punching people, man. That's what it's all about for me. And so I'm like, Oh, I'll get in there. And we banged it out and they had three refs and they gave him the fight. I've had people said, If you really watch it, you won that fight. Don't care. They suckered me in with a little guy, and then they throw in a 350-pound dude. Ended up ruining the show because Coleman didn't have anybody to fight. So he went out with Randleman and did a wrestling exhibition. And it was like, Why did you do that? You didn't have to pull Shamrock's guy out. It was behind the scenes things that were all prevalent at that point in time.


Yeah, there was a lot of shenanigans in the early, early days.


Oh, yeah.


But it was so loosely constructed. People have to realize, if you're looking at the UFC now, you're looking at WME-owned UFC, gigantic money, huge fucking special effects with screens. Everything looks The Sound's Amazing. Professional wrestling. Back then, I mean, UFC 12 was the first one that I did, which was Scott Ferozo's debut. We did it in Dotham, Alabama, and it was like a high school auditorium or something. It wasn't a very big place.


I remember the name Dotham. Was that- That was when- They did an interview with me, and it was supposed to be at a different show somewhere, and they got canceled. So they put it up in Dotham.


It was supposed to be Buffalo, but it got banned from New York. So last minute, we had all fly to Albert.


Right. So I was actually on the plane going to Dotham, not Dotham, but to Buffalo. Right. And they said, Hey, there's been a change of plans. You got to go to Dotham. So I went to Dotham, and I was sitting in the two-story hotel, not really a hotel, but like a motel type thing. And I looked out across a parking lot and there was a bar there. What the hell? Why not? So I ended up walking across the street, and I was drinking at the bar with this crazy old country of guy, old school dude. He a peanut farmer or something like that. We got blasted. And he goes, Come on, I'll take you to the arena. And I'm like, okay. So we get in this old pickup truck and turns the key and it sounds like a dragster. And I got Hillbilly Heyman or whatever driving this thing. And we drive to the arena and I'm like, no, no, no. I'm supposed to do an interview. He ends up parking on the island, a grassy island. He drove up the curb. I stumbled in there and David Isaacs is like, Oh, my God, what's going to happen next?


They got banned, and then I showed up out of my mind. I think there might be a clip of me all drunk saying stuff. I don't know.


It's a bunch of those clips, I'm sure.




How old were you with your first UFC fight?


A 30 years old.


And did you have any competitive fights other than wrestling matches? Did you do any amateur fights or anything?


Well- It wasn't around back then, right? No, there was no real fighting. You only did it in the street. And back in those days, I had wrest. And then on my 19th birthday, I was hoping to go on. I had one year of wrestling in junior college, and a dumb drunk friend of mine drove into a light pole on my birthday. That's why my teeth got all knocked out. And And it also put a gash right underneath my knee and mangled my knee on my left knee. And so my wrestling, I came back like halfway, maybe a third of the way into the season. And I just could... I didn't have enough time to get whatever. It's all written meaning, spiritually. And so I didn't perform the way I wanted to perform my sophomore year. I did not continue. No one was interested in me. So the whole time as a young Man, I wanted a box. And my mother said, Absolutely not. Not the CTE. And everybody boxes is stupid. And you're not going to do that. And I'm like, Oh, man. So I didn't have anything to do. I was 18 years old, and I said, You know what?


I wanted a box. And the same guy that was back when Mike Tyson was on fire, and he was the baddest man on the planet. When I was a young man, I go, not on my planet. And so he would obviously kill me in boxing, but there's not a boxing ring on every corner. And so I was all fired up with that. So same guy that I worked for at the clothing company where the cut and sew type thing was for medical clothing. He lived up San Luis, Abisbo, away, and he started boxing. And we were at, just like what you would think, going to a boxing gym and learning how to box. And I go, Man, I want to box. And he said, Well, come on up. And then I'll introduce you to my trainer. And maybe... Anyways, that got the ball started rolling, basically. So went up to San Luis, Abisbo, and there was a boxing gym just outside of there, a Taskadero or something like that. And so I went to the gym, and it's like you see these reels where these guys all... You learn a skill, like boxing. And then somebody that comes in that's a complete novice has no clue of what's going on, and they take advantage of these people.


Oh, you think you tell if you want a box? Well, if you don't know how to box. So that was the vibe when I went into the boxing gym and I go, Hey, yeah, I want to box. Yeah, sure. I'll deal with this. And they goes, Are you sure? I'm like, Yeah. So they go, Well, you want a spa? And they're all snickering. You want to spar? And I'm like, Yeah, isn't that what we're in here for? Isn't that what you do? And they're like, Oh, no, you have to learn. And I'm like, Okay. So they got all like, chuckling, going, Oh, he wants to spar. And so they went and got a mouthpiece from a local, what do you call those stores? Sporting Good store. And it comes back and they were trying to melt it in coffee and all that stuff. So this guy got a name, very big name from the '70s in boxing. And I don't need to talk about... His family has a big name. Can't say his name? I don't know. There's no point in it. Okay. Yeah, it could, but I I was training with this guy, and he did this guy.


I have it on videotape and all that stuff. So it's not like I'm making up stories. I'm the antithesis of trying to get myself over. I try to just go, No, no, no. So I get in there and they're all like, Oh, this is going to be great. And this guy is a heavyweight and he had eight professional fights. And I believe they thought they were going to his name and push him and get him some money somehow. And so I'm like, okay. I put boxing clothes on and hit the bag and played around and sparred with people. But I'm like, okay, this is what we're going to do. We're going to do it.


Let's see.


Yeah. And I knocked the living snot out of him. Really? Yeah. I just said, fuck it. Can you cuss on this or whatever? Yeah, you can cuss. But I said, Okay. I wasn't sparring, like skillfully boxing. I was like, Let's go. And we went.


And you had already had a bunch of street fights. Yes. And you knew You got to hit things. Yes. And power is something you either have or you don't have. And you've always had crazy power. So if someone underestimates you and someone's like, look this guy. So they let their guard down, get a little relaxed, think they're just going to tee off on you.


No, he thought he was going to hand it to me. Yeah. And I was like, all right, you'll see what's going to happen. And I said, this is going to be a street fight. And I knocked a living daylight. Like I said, I have it on videotape. And that guy was filming at the guy from the clothing store. Anyways, he- Sporting history. Yeah. And so he's in the back going, Oh, my God. Oh, I got it. I enlightened him that I didn't need to know the skill of boxing to take out somebody that had eight professional fights in boxing. I pretty much handed it to him.


So what did you do? You didn't box him. You just clenched, got close to him and just started playing the game makers?


No, it was on. I just started throwing. Boom, boom, boom, boom, right down the middle. Let's go.


So did Did you always... You just always had skill with your hands? I mean, that's pretty impressive for an eight-fighting professional boxer.


I put my chin down. I don't tell stories. Like I said, if you want to get a lie detector and a certified guy, I will take it.


Listen, you don't have to tell that to me. I know I've known you forever, so I'll just tell it to anybody else. Tank says it as it is always. You always have. Even when you lost, you were like, That guy fucked me up. That guy kicked my ass. You said you got molested by the lead singer from Queen. Freddie Murphy.


He was slapping me.


When dad Sefard beats you.


He was bitch slapping me. You had the best attitude about both winning and losing.


If you lost, you were very self-deprecating. You always had fun with things.


Yes. That's not the end of the world.


You were a great guy to be around, man, because it was a goddamn party. I don't know if you remember, but we got hammered a couple of times. There was a few different times at different hotels where you and I got drunk and you with your whole crew, they were all a bunch of psychos. It was just being around a lot of pitbulls, like jacked up pitbulls, ready to go. But it was fun, man. You always brought a party. You were having a good fucking time. You were having a good fucking time fighting. That's what made you a legend a lot because everybody thought that the skilled martial artist was always going to beat the fighter, right? But you were a skilled martial artist, but you were more of a fighter, just a dude who fucks people up. For you to just be going out there and knocking people out, you became the biggest star of the UFC, even without winning it. You beat a lot of good guys. But your power and your attitude, like when Matua went out and you did a little fucking dance. Because everybody thought martial arts was supposed to be bow and sensei and spirituality and meditating in the river, and you were out there getting wild.


Matua was metaphorically martial arts in my head. See, all these people are running around and martial arts is martial arts. Don't get me wrong. It works. It's a skill. But fighting is... Chaos. Yeah, but I coined this phrase, I believe. Anyways, fighter fortitude. And that is where it becomes... Fighting is not a skill that you learn and you become tough. Hoi's Gracie is not tough because he knows jiu-jitsu. He's a tough man. And all these guys that fight in the UFC are tough men, not because they know skill. Like these people, I see you getting an arm bar. Who Who cares? Anybody that sings skill is not a fighter. You're a pussy, frankly. You sit around and go, I can do this, and I can do... That doesn't matter. It's how tough you are, your fighter's fortitude. When someone's got a thumb in your eye's socket or taken a big bite out of your back and how you react and what you do from that, that's what fighter's fortitude It's not like, Oh, well, he's got his thumb in my eye. Maybe I could arm bar him or put him in a triangle. That doesn't save you.


Fighting is emotional. It's not about skill. It's what is inside your head, the heart you have, and what you need to do to get things done, to beat the opponent, hopefully, that's thinking the same thing you're thinking. And that is, I'm going to get to this point where I can kill this person or kill him. But basically, fighting is to a point where in the street anyways, and everybody that I beat up was trying to do the same thing to me in the street. They were trying to beat me up and get to the point where they can make the decision of killing me. And that's the whole point of a street fight. And it's not about, Oh, I got better skilled than you. So that's the difference between a street fighter and somebody that goes to the gym and learns how to throw a correct punch or a submission hold that's going to save your ass. You can learn those things. You can't be tough by learning those things. You can become tougher by learning those things. And if you're a tough guy and you learn skills that makes you tougher. Like Hoi's Gracie, he's a tough man.


But that guy's got skills up the yin-yang and jiu-jitsu that makes him even tougher.


But he has the mental fortitude to keep it together in the chaos.


Fighters fortitude.


And some people, even very skillful people, for some reason, don't have that. There's moments we've all seen where you get this guy who's like, especially a lot of guys who are gym heroes. There's a bunch of guys that in the gym, they look sensational. They look like this guy is going to be a world champion. Keep an eye on them. You watch them sparring, you watch them hit in mitts, and you're like, this guy's insane. And then they maybe reach 30% of their potential when they fight. You could See the panic in them?


Because they don't have it in their head.


Yeah, they don't have something, the thing that some guys have, like a Max Holloway has, that he'll fight to the end. To the end. Fighters 4:3. There's zero quit. The quit is not in there. You can go searching around for it forever. You're never going to find it. Then there's some guys, even though they're really talented, you can get to a point where they'll break and they'll just try to survive. There's a difference. It's the great ones, all like Jon Jones, so many of these guys, they find a way to win, and they never give up. No matter how chaotic it gets, no matter how bad they're losing, they find a way. 100 %. Leon Edwards in the fifth round against Kamaro Usman. Perfect example. He's getting taken down and manhandled, and he finally lands a head kick in the fifth round. There you go. And he becomes a hero.


And it's all fighters fortitude. It's about being a tough guy.


Yeah, and you can see it in that fight. Have you seen that Usman Leon Edwards fight? I haven't seen it. It's fucking amazing because his coach is sensational, and his coach is screaming, Don't let him bully you, son. From English, in England, and the rocky music is playing. There's a clip of it online. You get goosebumps every Every time I see it, I get goosebumps. It's like that thing that is the difference between a fighter and just someone who's skilled. That was something that you, I think, introduced more than anybody in the early days of the sport. This is it. You want to see this? Because this is so fucking good, man. Play that. Listen, stop seeing me showing for your fucking stuff. Well, come on, man. What's wrong with you? You're two fucking down. You got to pull this shit out of the fire. Come on, man.


You got it, man.


Come on. You got to That's the running bit. What, the music? I can't even hear it. Yeah, but it's part of the fun thing. That his fucking coach is sensational.


That is not the cloth from which he has caught a goal.


So they're doing it this way to avoid copyright strikes from the UFC. They're just showing photographs of it. But it's the person who never gives up, the person who finds a way, really knows how to actually... It's not just skill. There's another element, and that's what you're talking about.


If you put it to UFC 6, that was the awakening of the guillotine choke, because you had jiu-jitsu, and then wrest came along and started handing it to the submission jiu-jitsu guys. And then UFC 6 came along And they came up with the guillotine. Now, Oleg got the guillotine on me twice, and I fought myself out of it. I've never timed it or whatever, but it was a while. I was losing consciousness. I was seeing black, but I pulled myself out. In fact, he brought up the fishhugs. When I finally, the first time, he got it and I pulled my head out and he was laying there I'm like, What are you going to do now? And then I reached down and fish-hicked him and started banging his head on the floor.


When you look back at yourself then, does that even seem like you?


Yeah. Why not? I mean, of course it is you.


But I mean, the young hulking you, smashing guys. This is also just the one round, correct?


Yes. 17-minute round? Yeah, there's no rounds.


Did they have a time limit on any of the fights?


No. And I would have won that fight if Big John McCartney wouldn't have stuck his melon in between us and break us up. You know, that's how you were talking about how they fix the fights and everything. He broke this fight up. There were no rules not supposed to do. Look, he's breaking us up. Why did he do that?


Why did they do that? Yeah. Where Have a booing?


Yeah, that was all John McCartney. Why did he break us up?


I don't know. What were the rules back then as far as- There were no rules.


All they had to do was give him a track starting gun, and he could stand there and go, boom. And that's all he needed to do.


He just had to start the fight. And so this restart was just completely because of him? Yes. Because of Big John McCarthy?


Yes. He's corrupt and he's a crook. His idea of what he thinks fighting is, and he's a full on Oleg O submission guy because he's all into technique. I don't know this. He's never said it to me, but he's all into skill and everything else. He has no respect for fighters fortitude or anything like that. You don't think he does? No.


I think he does. I think you have a personal dispute with him, but I like Big John.


Well, you might like him, but he leveraged his made-up persona, Big John, to get me kicked out of the show. Him and his wife, they got me literally kicked out of the show.


They got you kicked out of the UFC?


Yeah. Really? Yeah.


What year was this?


Very early.


Why would they want to get you kicked out of the UFC?


Because he does not like me. He's a cop, and he doesn't like the fact that I'm, probably in his eyes, a thug. But the point is, he has a B in his mind. He's never liked me. He was a jiu-jitsu student before he started in the thing. For the Gracies, they didn't have a ref. So Art Davy goes, Hey, what about that big guy, Big John? And then Big John was a cop and everything. And he did background checks on me before I got into the UFC. Like, oh, yeah, no, this guy really has got a record. I've been arrained at least seven times for beating people up. And shit was hitting the fan. It was getting bigger and more and more. You're going to get in trouble pretty soon. Thank God I had a great attorney. He He was a guy that could point out the truth, and people would see that, and the DA would go, Okay, community service. I'd go do that at the boxing gym. Anyway, so John checked into it and he goes, No, this guy really is a street fighting legend like Tank Murdoch. And obviously, the guy's dad was a cop.


And that underlying, it doesn't matter. But he did not like the fact that I came along after the Gracies because he was like a stooge for Gracie jiu-jitsu in the whole nine yards. And when I came along, I said, No, no, no, no, no. Fighting is emotional. It's not a skill. It's not a skills match. It's what you have in your head. And he obviously doesn't have anything in his. But so at Puerto Rico, I used to go around to dojos and go in there after I'd cruise around drinking a twelve-pack in my van. And we'd pull up to dojos and walk in there and go, Who does anybody want to fight? And nobody did. And so I lost my A train of thought on that. But, oh, this is it. Okay, so when I was working out with weights and I wasn't a strong day for me. So you have to know when they said, No, not lifting today. So I felt compunction and I needed to go do something. I said, let's go check this jiu-jitsu place out. They had flyers at the Westminster Boxing Gym where I was boxing after I left that Bakersfield thing.


So we go in there, and all the other kung fu and wing chungs and all that stuff, no one ever wanted to fight me. And I go, Let's Let's go check out this jiu-jitsu thing, see if it's real or not. And this guy is supposed to be a world champion and all this. And since it's out there, I'll say who it was, but was Alon Goes. And so he's supposed to be some world champion, this and that. And at this time, we're totally green. They have really respect for jiu-jitsu or anything like that. And I was with Paul Herrera and Eddie Ries, who are very accomplished wrestlers. And I go, let's go check it out. I'm lifting. Let's go see if this stuff is for real. So we go into the jiu-jitsu thing, and It was a little bit of a drive. We got in there and I said, Hey, we want to roll around with you. See, we check this stuff out. And their Portuguese, Demonstration, demonstration. And I'm like, Oh, what the fuck is this? Anyways, so one of the guys goes in the back. I guess they put cameras up in these little mirrored boxes, the one-way mirror things.


And so Eddie gets up there and he's a little guy. And And so it didn't take him very long to tap him out with an arm thing. And then Paul, who's an all-American from Nebraska, or bigger guy, 190-ish. He gets in there and I'm like, What the hell is going on? Because they're lasting and lasting, and he's on his back. And at that time, I was like, What are you back for? It's stupid. Totally ignorant of what was going on. And I'm like, Holy fuck. He ended up tapping him out. And I'm like, Wow, he made short work of Eddie, and he tapped out Paul, and had respect for Paul for his wrestling abilities and where he'd gone and trained and wrest for her. And I was like, Holy smokes. I'm rather large and very powerful. And how long it goes is not. And so I go, okay. They were starting on their knees and all that stuff. And I'm like, whatever. So I get on them and I had a medical cut and sew place, I had a scrub on. So I'm on top of them and he grabs a nurse's scrub because they don't or anything like that.


And he does like an X on his thing and he starts choking me. And I look at him and I just roll my eyes like, really? I went like that, like fist on both sides of his face. And he's like, oh, Okay. And so we rolled around, rolled around, rolled around. And then he finally got to an arm lock. And like I said, I was doing curves with like 120 pound dumbbells and stuff like that. And So I picked him up, basically. He was like a foot off of the mat, and I raised my right-hand up and made a fist. You want me to fall down? His eyes got huge as the moon. No, no, no, no, no, Oh, and I'm like, okay. So I let him down and let it go. And he was like, oh, I've had enough of this big guy here. And so we left and whatever goes on in somebody's head like, oh, who's that guy? Almost in a narcissistic way. I got him in an arm lock. I would have used him for a It doesn't matter. Pile drives a minute. Yeah, there would have been a whole bunch of bad for him.


Getting scammed. Yeah. So Puerto Rico, I don't know. Paul was fighting in that show. Well, that show, it was David versus Goliath there.


Oh, that's right. That's right. Did he fight Big Daddy?


Yeah. And Big Daddy had a videotape of him, so he knew exactly what to do with that high crotch. That was all stage, not stage, but prepare. And so, along goes comes up afterwards. Oh, this is all the way, a full circle back to John. So Alon Goals comes up after Paul gets elbowed. My big John didn't stop it. Who knows? I know. But anyways, so he starts mouthing off. He must have had too much alcohol or something. And I'm like, who do you think you're talking to? And like, really? You were going to go there? Okay. So he had him and all his friends were behind him. So I popped him and was going after him. And me and Eddie were fighting the whole contingency of Brazilian fighters in the audience. And then we go to the back and old-school warrior. And no one sends you to the hospital. And I'm telling Paul, Hey, fuck that. You're not going to the hospital. You don't do that. And he's like, Huh? And there was a Dr. Istergo and John McCartney and his wife, Elaine, who is Karen. I think her name should be Karen. Elaine McCartney.


Anyways, she comes running up and starts pointing her finger in my face and saying, get the hell out of here, I'll kill you. Just hyperbole in the moment, charged type thing. They try to make a huge move out of that. And then-So that's how you get kicked out. And then John's telling Bob, I'm going to quit, and Elaine's going to quit. And if you don't kick him out, that's why I didn't go to the show. And mind you, I was the personality of that whole show at that time. And I think they went to Detroit or something like that after that words. And He's like, Where's Tank at? Where's the show? And Bob's like, We got to fix this. And so somehow a letter came up of an apology to their leverage of they were going to quit. I'm like, Who cares if they quit? He's a referee. He pulls the trigger on a gun and then he affects fight by breaking people up and giving people chances and everything else, he's a corrupt person. Who cares? But I guess Bob was leaning into the fact like, oh, he's developed a personality for himself. So anyways, we're going to have this letter made, and we'll send it to the Cartonies, and then they can be sued, and then I'll be allowed to come back.


And that was all around the same time with the Ferozo fight, with my knee messed up. And Bob being the slickster that he is.


But don't you think it's also just possible that Jerry Bolander got hurt? Because he fought, too, right? He fought a fight first, right?


It's possible, but I'm a cynic. A little conspiracy A cynic.


I see where you would feel that way. I think in the early days, one of the things that Dana White does a really good job about is he talks to everybody, have conversations with people. Sit people down, talk to them, explain, This is great. This is not so great. This is what we think we could do with you. No, back then, it was chaos.


Yes, absolutely.


It was chaos. And a referee today, they're allowed to stand people up.


But back then, that wasn't- No, I understand completely what you're saying. But back in those days, those guys set up a lot of stuff.


What did they set up?


All right. It won't come to me right off, but I will tell you. Okay.


I don't want to put you on the spot. No. So you think that they had people that they wanted to win, so they made things work a particular way? Absolutely.


Like the Don Fry fight, Him fighting is the people comment, It's not his friend. Mark Hall, that guy went out and did the job for Fry.


It looks like he did.


Well, no, he did.


Yeah, it looks like it when you watched the fight.


Yeah, he did. And they fought before, too. He just went out there and fell down. And then regardless of how easy my fight before is, mentally, it's a whole different ball of wax.


Yeah, it's It's a different ball of wax if one guy goes through a war and one guy goes through a really easy fight.


Emotionally, in your head, you got to get all ramped up to go.


Especially if you had a real close fight, your legs got beat up. There's a lot of things that can happen. One guy can knock a guy. The tournaments are so crazy because one guy, it's almost like it's better than not fighting because he lands one punch, knocks the guy out. Like, oh, my God, I already won. I want to fight. I know I'm performing well. I didn't get hurt at all. And now I'm loose. My brain's loose. And then you could go through three rounds of hell with some fucking psychopath where you're barely surviving both of you. And you get to the final round, or whatever it was back then, it was one round. But you get to the final end of it and you're like, oh, Jesus, I got to do this one more time with a guy who's fresh.


Right. Yeah.


And if you can rig that, and if you want to, you can set a bracket up. I'm not accusing them of doing that, but you could do it.


Same thing with that Anthony Macias guy. That fought Oleg before me. Oleg went out and choked out his first opponent with a guillotine, choked real fast. And then he fought Anthony Messias that winks at him right before the fight.


They wink.


Yeah, you know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah. That obvious? Where do you want me to fall down? I fought the two biggest guys ever fought in the UFC. A 400-pound guy in the 6'5, whatever, 300 or 280, whatever size you want to make. Real fight. It's not some guy that's out there laying down going, Okay.


The early days, it was so loose, and you never knew when it was going to go away because it was already getting suspended from cable. Cable kicked it off. You could only get it off a direct TV back then.


Yeah, with John... Was it McCain?


Yeah. John McCane. Yeah, John McCane. And John McCane, allegedly, was doing something for Bud Light. So he was working with Bud Light, and Bud Light wanted boxing. The whole world was conspiring to keep MMA from flourishing back then. Absolutely. It was a real big deal. They would disparage it every... It's a funny video of Bob Aram talking about it. They're rolling around on the ground like homosexuals.


I saw that, yes. I was laughing about that, too.


It's amazing. It's amazing because he's such an old-school guy. Him saying that, it's just very funny.


Immediately, I was like, What's his angle? Why is he saying that? He's just trying to say- Boxing. Yeah, he's trying to say boxing.


He's just silly because boxing is awesome. I love boxing. Oh, yeah, me too. It doesn't mean the UFC is not better.


Oh, no. It's a skill. Yeah.


Boxing is an amazing skill. It's an amazing skill. And it's a huge part of MMA. I mean, if you can't throw a punch, you really You can't win. But it's a different thing. It's a fighting game, whereas MMA is a fight. Boxing can be a fight, too. But the rules are so specific, so limited.


When I went out and boxed a Taskadero thing, I came back here and went to Westminster Boxing Club, I believe it is. Anyways, I was fortunate. I walked in and Tyrell Biggs was boxing. And his trainer, Matt Curehardt, I walked up and I was a white heavyweight. And every back in those days, I'll train you, I'll train you. And I'm like, okay, he didn't have time for me. So I was like, okay, I'm slowly learning boxing, and his underling was on charge of me. And I go, when we going to fight? And he's like, no, you don't Don't just fight. You got to learn it out of box. I'm like, no, not me. I'm going to fight. He goes, Well, there's a show in six weeks in here. And I go, Perfect. I'll do that then. You can't just do that. And I'm like, No, I can do that. And so this is also on video. I fought some guy that had been boxing for three years, and I knocked the stuffing out of him. His mouthpiece went flying out of mouth. At that time, the guy that ran the gym was named Noe Cruz, and he was the trainer for Carlos Palomino.


Old-school Mexican, 6'2 guy, but knew his boxing skills like no tomorrow. And he went up to Mac and he said, Hey, that guy's got something you can't train. You guys can be in here forever, but I want to train that guy. And Max all, I don't have time for him. I'm with Tyrell. He goes, We'll split him, whatever. So from that point on, after that first fight, I started rolling with Noe, not rolling, but boxing with him. And he's the one that got me to sit down on my punches and all Mexican style hard punches inside to the body, uppercuts, all that stuff. Then he used to swing those big old leather bags hanging from chains. It was like an old warehouse. It had been there probably since the early '60s. He had swing the bag and it come back and I would just turn through and the whole gym would shake and his eyes would get all big and go,. No, he was a great guy.


Do you ever wonder what would have happened if you went and pursued just professional boxing?




If it was a big white heavyweight with knockout power like you, that could have been very marketable.


That was the whole idea, and they were all into that. And I remember because I would show up to the boxing gym with black eyes and cuts on my face after every weekend, pretty much. And in fact, on my trilogy, Street warrior. That's the way he used to call me. Oh, the street warrior. And you go, Oh, what do you do now? And I go, No, if only, if only. You don't understand. If they only had a fighting show with real fighting, not just boxing stuff. And he would just look at me and he has a big smile and he was just shake his head like, You're crazy. And it happened. It was awesome.


How did you find out about it?


Well, I was driving. I used to work at a liquor store when I was going to college and supplied my habit. So I was looking through the Playboys and I saw an advertisement for Ultimate Fighting. I don't know what... It was one where the tooth fell out.


That was the first one? Yeah.


And so I was living with two other guys, pirated cable. He climbed up the telephone pole type thing. And so I invited my dad over and I said, Hey, man, you got to check this ultimate finding. I don't know if it's real or not. I suspect it's not. I think it's probably just an offshoot of professional wrestling. Okay, I'll come over. So he came over and we're sitting there drinking beers, watching the tube. And he came out with that grass skirt type thing. And I'm like, Oh, see. And then I don't know who it was. Was it Gerard Perdeau, whatever?


Yeah, Gerard Perdeau.


Yeah. And he kicked him in the face and his tooth went flying. I go, Oh, yes. This is real.


It's real.


Yeah. I can't believe it, man. This is going to be so awesome.


So how did you contact them? How do you wind up getting in?


I was in jail for beating up this...Cop son.Right. And I got work released from that. Probation. I did three weeks in jail in an honor farm, and then I went to a probation apartment thing, went to work and came back. And that's when my friend, who worked for his dad at the medical clothing company, goes, Hey, You know that guy, chemo, that works at the bar? And I'm like, Eh. He goes, You got to know him. He wears that jean thing. And I'm like, Yeah. And he goes, You know Joe Son? I knew Joe Son from the boxing gym. He goes, They fought in that show. And I'm like, Well, yeah. I go, Why is that guy fighting in that show? Because he would always... I had quite the reputation back in those days. He would come me in the line and go, Mr. Ebitzer, this way, and cut me in front of everybody and walked me in.


Is this Joe's son?


No, that was chemo.


This is chemo.


And I was, Hey, thanks, chemo. That's as much as I knew of him. When he was telling me, You know That guy. And I'm like, Hmm. Anyway, so it was chemo. And he goes, This guy, chemo. If that guy's in it, why can't you be in it? That's when I was saying, Make it happen. And he starts He'd call an Art Davy on the phone. And Art's like, Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he goes, No, you don't understand this guy is the real deal from the streets, man. Everybody knows who he is. And he's like, Yeah, yeah. We hear this story all the time. And he's all not from this guy. And then it was back in the day when he had a table like this with the phone and a speakerphone on it. And so he goes, tell that guy because I was sitting in the He goes, Tell him I got some guy that's like 6'8, 300 pounds that wants to fight him. And we'll see you next week at this time. It was raining, so we ended up going to Art Davy's office in Torrance, right around the corner, I heard from the Gracie Academy, I guess they call it.


And so it was raining, and I had like a... It was back in the days when they had brown paper bags for grocery bags. So I put my high top basketball shoes in there and like, stretchy clothes that you would wear. I had it all folded up. I walked in sitting here like we are now. He's talking and he's like, okay. And this is before they came up with the tank idea. I said, no, I'm a wrestler. So he goes, okay, well, What are we getting back to you? And he goes, oh, by the way, what's in that bag? And I said, Well, you said you had somebody who was like 6, 8, 300 pounds that we wanted to fight. And he goes, What? I go, Yeah, on the phone, you said that. And he goes, You'd fight somebody? And I goes, Yeah, I don't go to jail. And he goes, You're crazy. What? You're just crazy, man. I'm like, No, I'm down for fighting any time you want to do it. And he's like, Oh, he just shook his head and he walked out. Like I said, did we go over the point of going where I got kicked out before even I got in?


No, we didn't talk about that. Oh, so- So they found out about your record before you got in? Is that what it was? No, No, no, no. You did something?


Yes. Okay. No, this is... I don't know. I've never talked about this publicly, I don't think. So this is why I told the central casting Mafia Wanabe guy, that they kicked me out. This is why they kicked me out. So they gave me a one sentence paper that says, David Abbott is going to be in the next show, whatever. And I didn't realize that it had to be six because the Gracies owned, according to my calculations, the first five shows before Bob took over.


Bob Meyerwood.


For six. And so, I lost my train of thought for a second. It'll come back. So he gave me a piece of paper and it says, You're going be in the show, not five, but six. And I'm like, Oh, man. And you're a young man, and your patience is like, I can't wait that long. I need tomorrow. And I was like, whatever. So I go, Okay, let's just work with it. Well, you can train. And so a wrestler that was wrestling. Everybody knows the world and college wrestling. And this guy worked for a volleyball company, clothing company called Club Sportswear. And they used to sponsor volleyball players. And so Eddie knew him. I think they used to live together. Somebody lived with him that knew him. And he called up and said, Hey, Dave's going to be in that UFC show. And so he goes, Okay. And he goes, Well, do you guys want to sponsor him? And I don't know anything about anything sponsor. What whatever. And he goes, Let me ask my boss. And he goes, Yeah, sure. It was new. He goes, Yeah, we'll give him some clothes to wear and all that stuff.


And he goes, Well, he wanted an airplane ticket to go back and watch the show. I think it It was UFC 5 in Charlotte. And so he sends me a ticket, and I'm like, Wow, I'm a kid. In my head, I was a kid, but not chronologically. I was a forever college student. And so I'm flying there and I'm like, man, this is so cool, these people to do this for me. And they gave me bags full of clothes. I was like, Wow, even socks and everything like that. It was like crazy. That's where I was in that time of life. And so we get there and I had a big club bag. And they go, Yeah, just try to get on TV, man, just so we can see our stuff. I get to Charlotte and I walk in and it was like the lobby of a hotel. It was like a two-story hotel, but it was nicer, like a suite hotel. It wasn't dumpy. And everybody in the lobby had their desk out. And at that time, it was martial arts. It was Kang fu Frank over there and whomever. Jujutsu Jeff over there.


They're walking around like their Steven Segal with their chip on their shoulder and their chest out. I'm thinking, I'm like, what the heck is this, man? Are you kidding me? It looked like a swap meet for martial art want tobes. I don't know. And all these people are walking around like, this is before UFC. Even people knew. They're like, wow. I can remember some guys. I was just like, are Are you kidding me? This is like, insane. These people are just playing the role. And so I just walked on by and I was like, wow, I have a room and I went to the room and I'm like, wow, my first time really being somewhere by myself. And I'm fine with being by myself, but I'm like, what the hell am I going to do? So There was a UFC office in the hotel. So that's my first run in with Karen McCartney. And I walked in there and she's like, here are you. Where are you? Where are you at? And I'm like, Wow. And I was like, Hi, whatever. And Dave, the guy that set it up from the clothing company or the medical company, said, Oh, you're going to be all set.


You're going to have backstage passes. And I go, because I want to know what I want to do and the lay of the land. So she's like, Oh, yeah. Whatever. And I'm like, Okay, whatever. She's having a bad day or something. And so I got, What do I do? So I walked down the lobby and I said, hey, man, is there a bar around here? And he goes, oh, yeah, right across the street over there, just down in there in the high the way there. I go, perfect. So I walk over there and everybody's partying. I sit at the bar and everybody's like, oh, what are you here for? I go, that UFC thing they're having at the Coliseum or something like that. Oh, yeah, that fighting thing. Are you a fighter? And I'm like, going on, I'm not technically really a fighter. I go, well, I'm not fighting in this show, but I got a piece of paper saying, a contract saying that I'm going to be in the next one. So you know, you partied with me. I like to have a good time. So it doesn't take long before the whole bar is rocking and rolling around me and we're having fun.


Everybody's like, woohoo, man, tank. And I'm like, cringing, like, tank. And they're like, yeah. And I'm like, oh, yeah, And so we partied it up, had a good time. And so end up going back with these guys to this like a suite hotel. So there was like a living room, and then you had your bedroom type thing. And we're partying it up. And it doesn't take long before security comes and knocks on I was saying, Hey, people are complaining about you guys. God, I'm probably swinging off the couch doing all sorts of crazy stuff. And I'm like, okay, well, it turns out Meyerowitz is right across the hallway. And I think he called So that wasn't a good thing. And I'm like, okay, we'll keep it down. I don't even know who that Bob was. Art Davy was the guy. And so he was purporting himself as. So I'm like, oh, whatever. And so toned it down. So go back the next day, and it all starts up all over again. And I'm like, yeah, let's go. And they're going, Hell, yeah, we're going. We're going to the fight. And I go, Yeah, let's go.


So we end up, I go, I got these backstage passes and stuff, so I don't know if I can sit with you guys. So they got tickets in there in this little cubicle block of seats just up on the first rail. They're sitting there and I go, Okay. And I go, Hey, there's that Art guy. I go, Hey, Art. And he's running around like he's Don King in a tuxedo. And I'm like, Hey, Art, Art, Art. Hey, you got my passes and stuff like that. And he's looking at me. He's giving me the cold shoulder, not even knowing. He sees me, but like, oh, shit, I don't want to talk to that guy. And I'm like, why is he being evasive? And finally, I called him over and I started putting two and two together. Like you said, I'm cynical, a conspiracy theories. He would walk around the hotel like he was King Kong, like I'm the man type thing. Right when I went in to get tickets, and Elaine and them are all in there, he's giving these two young girls these laminates and gave me the quick eye like, what the hell is he looking at?


Like, sketchy look. And when I got to the show, they just gave me paper tickets. And those two girls were running around with the laminates in the office. So I went two and two together. He gave them my laminates, trying to get over with the girls and just gave me some tickets Oh. All right. So now, just add a little alcohol, a little conspiracy thoughts going on in my head, and I'm going, that little worm. I go, oh, I I know what's going on. And so I go-So you were supposed to get laminates? Right. But those girls got the laminates when I went in to get the two.


And those girls that he had just met? Yes.


They were just groupy, ring rats, thing. Anyways. So I'm like, Hey, Art, art, art. He finally walked over. I go, What the fuck, dude? You give me these paper tickets. I go, I can't see anything. I just want to walk around. And in the back of my mind, I wanted to get their clothes on camera. I was going to do like a cameo walk by. I was a kid. Anyways, are young, are ignorant or whatever. Unwise. And so So I'm walking and he's like, Oh, I don't tell you. You give me a shrug. And he walks off in his little tuxedo and I'm steaming. And so that goes down and the first fights go down. And one of the girls, there's a group of maybe 10 people. They go, Hey, Tank, in the Southern thing. She goes, I don't know. I was expecting something else. It's just boring, to be honest with you. And I'm like, I was part of the show. And I'm like, Yeah, I understand. I think Gracie or Oleg or somebody fought and they were doing submission and it was boring. And so I go, Let me tell you something. I promise you, I promise you, it's not going to be anything like this.


It's not going to be laying on the ground rolling around when I fight. I promise you that you have to believe me. And she goes, Well, I hope so because this, I can't get into my accent. She goes, I hope so because this is boring. And I'm like, No, it's not going to be anything like that when I get in there. Trust me. And so that was the tone that was set. And more beers. I was drinking beer at that time. Maybe I was drinking some vodka then. So we get back after the show at the bar, and I remembered everybody's sitting around talking about it. And I went, Hey, you know what? I forgot. There's a cocktail party going on. And I go, What? I go, Yeah, there's a cocktail party going My guy told me about it. I had back passes in the whole nine yards. I go, But there's a cocktail party with everybody there. Anyways, so I go, Let's go. And they're going, Well, we're not. How are we going to get in? I go, You're fucking with me, man. We can get in. Don't worry. So I went over there.


I had an entourage by that time, believe it or not. I wasn't even fight. And we walked in and they had a typical banquet-type stuff with the silverware and the rolled roast beef and rolls. And cocktails. So I was drinking and drinking and drinking. And it didn't take long before I started telling them that they were a bunch of pussies and that they didn't know how to fight. I don't even know what the hell is going on. Wait till I get in there. And Jim Brown, the football player, was an announcement then. And I think he came up in a fatherly way. Like, Hey, calm down. Tell me what to calm down. I'll tell you what to calm down. I didn't have any respect at that time. And so So things went on like that. I ended up taking Jim Brown's... What do you call those things? Like a derby.


His hat off?


Yeah, but what was it? What was it called? I don't know. It's like a hat.


I know what it is.


The word escapes me right now. It was beret. He had a beret that he used to wear all the time. And you took it off his head? I took it off his head and started walking off. And I got about five yards away. And he's all, Hey, hey, hey, young man. And I turned around and I threw it at him. I flung it like a frisbee and I hit him in his chest. He caught it. And he looked at me angrily, angrily. And I was joking around, having fun, that's all. And that might just be the cherry on top, but the whole behavior was that the whole night. And we left because it was closing down, and I had my fill of food, and we went back to my room and restarted the party up again. And then I left and came back, and they never called us back or anything. And I was like, Hey, man, what the hell is going on? And he's like, What did you do there? And I'm like, This is me. And I go, Oh, no. He was shaking his head. And then that's when Art called him and said, Hey, that guy is a maniac.


He's not only allowed to fight in the show, he's not allowed to at the show. No effing way. That guy, he's crazy. I remember my friend hanging the phone up and looking at me and slowly just shaking his head like, You blew it, dude.


So how did you get back in?


I told you from the guy from the bar.


Okay, so they discounted all the things that happened in the past.


That guy made a phone call.


Well, Well, it's a smart thing to do. I mean, regardless if someone's a maniac, it's a maniac sport.


You just got to have better security. Okay. To lead up into meeting that guy that got me in, the professional wrestling guy. Yeah. Okay. So I get this phone call, you're out, boom. And we go to this bar. And it's not a nice... It's a bar that normal people don't go to. And we're in there, and I told Paul and Eddie that I didn't want to go there. I just go, I don't want to trouble. And I was a well-oiled, imprimed machine for beaten ass. And I'm And I had anger issues from being kicked out of my dream. So they talked me into it. And I go, okay, listen, if anybody bothers me, you guys have to take care of business. And no problem. And we were supposed to be in a wrestling room, training and fighting. But the wind got knocked out of our sails, my sail, but they were in there for me. And so we're in there and it's a seedy place, and seedy things happen. This girl starts in with Paul. Paul disables her and she falls on the ground.


Disables her?


Well, he foot-sweoped her because she was clawing. It's a dirty It's a bad place. Anyways, so that Paul didn't beat up her boyfriend, I came up behind him and got double underhooks underneath him from behind and was pulling him back. And all of a sudden, I hear this loud crack and a light flash across my eyes. I'm like, What the fuck happened? It sounded like the jukebox machine got broke, the glass on it. What the hell happened, man? And I let go of Paul, I'm pulling him back, and I turn around, and there's a guy with a broken pool cue standing there. And obviously, I put two and two together. Put two and two together. And his eyes were like, Oh, that didn't go the way I planned because he's still standing here. And I don't know because I was knocked silly, but I heard that he got hurt really bad. And that's why the bartender, our bar owner, wanted to extort money from me from having a tape of me beating up those guys.




He's like, Yeah, that guy came into my bar and I almost killed somebody, and I have it on videotape.


I see.


That's a long roundabout back to the story. Got it.


Yeah. So it was a whole lot of fights and a whole lot of chaos. When you were competing, what training were you doing if you were drinking that much?


Oh, man. See, I really like to address This is it. People don't think that I train. I ran a marathon. You think that you just get up someday and go, I'm going to go run a marathon?


Well, there's no way you didn't train. You look at you, you were very strong. You were obviously Even though you were a big guy, your cardio wasn't that bad. You were definitely doing something. No.


You try fighting three times. On that day, the first UFC 6, I believe I could beat any man on Earth that day. I was in my prime that day. The only reason why I lost is because of big John McCartney and his breaking up the fight. He should have never broke that fight up.


Did they break... So there was no rule at all about standing people up?


No, none.


I personally believe, and I've broken this down too many times to repeat it, but I'm going to anyway. I don't think they should ever stand people up. I think a person could take you down. A person could take you down and keep you down. Tough shit, even if it's boring. The whole idea is like, what's real?


Take it away from me about McCartney affecting fights. The first fight they had, don't quote me on this because I'm not a historian, but I believe it was Boss written in Kevin Randleman. That was the first fight they had with judges. John McCartney got in there and broke that fight up twice so Boss could get back up and come back and fight him.


Were there rules back then about stand-ups?


I don't know. I don't think so. That was an interesting fight.


I think- It was the first It's not going to fight anybody ever won off their back, really.


No, he shouldn't have won. If you watch that fight, and I just watched it recently, Kevin Randleman kicked his ass, beat his ass severely. And John broke it up twice just so he could give Boss an advantage.


A chance to get back up to his feet.


Yeah. And Boss is nothing more than a Chris Pancreas. Pancreas is fake. Listen to Ken Shamrock. He said it's fake. At best, it was predetermined, as Ken said.


I think there were some real fights, and I think this is a true in all Japan. There were some real fights, and there's some fixed fights. When Boss fought Funaki, watch that fight. He beat the fuck out of Funaki. That was a real fight.


Yeah, I have. I don't know if you've seen that one, but that is not fake.


He beats the fuck out of Funaki. I mean, it's one of the worst beating anybody's ever taken in Pancreas. Because Boss had figured out instead of slapping, to throw palms like punches.


Well, I'm not going to get into that.


I know you discredit a lot of people because that's you.


I'm not dissident.


But Boss Roon was a bad man. I think- Would Boss Roon be Tioke Koshaka. Did you ever see that fight?


I don't. It's a skills fight and what have you. I did see the thing- Tioke Koshaka was a very good fighter, and that was not...


I mean, it was a skillful fight, but it was a brutal fight.


But was that Pancreas?


No, that Who was it? It was UFC. Ufc. That was his first fight in the UFC.


I haven't seen it.


He's had two fights in the UFC. I think he had two fights in the UFC.


And in my opinion, I just watched it. He lost a random. So he's one-on-one.


Maybe he had more. Did he have more than two fights in the UFC? I can't think of a third.


I think he might have fought that Indian guy.


Yes, but that was Ruben Villarreal, right? But that wasn't in the UFC. That was in another organization. That was a later fight.


Right. No, I fought that Ruben, whatever guy. That was my last fight. I came off of my hotel bed and walked into the octogen.


Didn't you have a fight with Scott Feroza in a backyard?




That fight's fucking great. We played that fight once on the podcast. We were like, This is so crazy. These guys are so wild. They're just fighting on the lawn.


Yeah. No, they called me up and said, I go, Yeah, I love fight that guy again. And I flew out there and they wanted to do an empty strip club.


How was this organized? How does that take place?


Some guy named Brian Grooms- Just came up with some money and said, Hey, I'll pay you Just to fight on a lawn? Well, he wanted to do it in an abandoned strip club. And I told him, I go, Dude, he's like, I'm having trouble. I go, I'm not going to get arrested. I value my freedom. And he's like, Yeah. I go, I'll fight him anywhere. He goes, Are you doing my backyard? I go, Hell, yeah, I'm doing my backyard. And so we went there. And I don't know what version you saw. He put some edited version out of it. But He ended up going to the hospital again. I sent him to the hospital the first time, and he went again, the second time because of his big mouth.


Well, you were punching him on the top, and he was cheering, like he was having a good time. It was a crazy fight to watch.


Yeah, I don't know if he was cheering.


It was something like he was saying, whoa, this is great.


Yeah, he's trying to act.


Yeah, like he's enjoying it, enjoying getting beat up. Right. Yeah.


Only if a girl is doing it to me.


How many fights do you think you had total in all of MMA and in street fights in your life?


If you had a guess. I have guessed. You know But that's like asking Wilt Chamberlain about how many one-night stands he's had.


Did he say 10,000?


Yeah. So not 10,000. I dabbled around before I got bored and thinking like, wow, last couple of years, at least two times a week, at least. That's 100 a year. That's what I'm saying. Two times a week.


If you looked at a chart of the average person, how many street fights they get in, the two times a week, that is the smallest percentage of the population that's alive.


Yeah, I was into it.


What did you enjoy so much about it? Because here's the thing, you're not a dumb guy. When someone can get to a conversation with you and you want to really start talking about things, you're a very bright guy. But you liked it. Oh, yeah. I love it. It was like your favorite thing.


Well, I broke it down. And recently, not really recently, but towards after my surgery and all these things, you sit around and talk to yourself all day. I come to realize there's a cliché, I'm the bully's bully, that thing. I used to set up textbook narcissists that come in and display their narcissism around people. Like, you ever meet somebody that you're like, Oh, no, those two can't be around each other? Well, I was the guy, and I've never... I'm more of an empath than people know. But my ears would perk up and my eyes would open up when I saw a narciss that would try to belittle, put people down. My brother's five years older than me, and he's very athletic. I come from a football... Dad's a football coach, that thing. And so maybe deep-rooted, I was resentful of him being older and able to push me around or what have And so when I see these narcissists, and I'll be like, why would that guy be doing that? For what? What are you, getting yourself over? And so I would put myself in their vicinity. And sooner or later, if you look at me, even today, when I walk down the street, people give me the eye like, yeah, you want some?


Do they really? Oh, hell, yeah.


How are you looking at them?


Well, you don't want to know.


Like, hey, do you want some? Yeah, exactly. So looking at you back. Yeah.


I just smile. And it's like, Are you kidding me? I feel like Billy Jack. You don't know what you're going to get into. Same, same back in the day. And I would go, No, no, no, no. I wrestled 190 pounds. I wasn't like I was when I was fighting. Once I knew I was fighting, I just ate everything and just got as strong as big as I possibly could. So sooner or later, and I go, No, you're going to slow down there. And you're talking to me, one of those back and forth. And like I say, fighting to me is like walking the dogs. Okay, we can go there if you want to. And Like I said, I've been in a lot of fights and talk about fighters fortitude. Someone's biting my back or sticking their thumb in my eye socket. I was like, all right, just enjoy your time right now because you're going to pay the price. And the more you beat people up in the street and in life, the more jaded and you get used to it. I can remember maybe in high school or something, early high school, you punch somebody and give them a black eye.


It's like, Holy, my God. Wow. You want me to put my hands on you, you're going to pay the price. Especially nowadays, with my health being so fragile, there's a different beating people You know, when I was a youngster, I used to go to all open wrestling rooms all the time. And I remember this old warrior coach. He said, You know, son, human body can take a lot of pain, a lot of beating. And I still remember to this day, and I'm, what, 59 now? And it just resonated in ringing in my ears. When you think you don't think you can hit them again. And the more they are a smart ass and the more they beg for a beating, I give them what they deserve.


Did you always feel that you had an ethic for when you would get in fights?


Absolutely. You'd only get in fights with douchebags. Well, yeah, but They think. They act like, Oh, nothing makes me more upset. It doesn't mean I'm so much now. I'm older now. But you're going to tell me what to do or talk down to me. I used to go, Oh, really? Are we going there?


There's a lot of people out there.


Everybody thinks they're tough.


Well, there's a lot of people out there that are just bluffing, and they talk crazy because they think that people are going to get scared. You see it all the time online. You can watch 100 videos of them doing it to the wrong person. It happens all the time. Do it to the wrong person. Do you ever see the Joe Schilling one?




Is one of the greatest of all time. Joe Schilling, who's the man. He's a world champion kickboxer, fucking great guy. Joe Schilling is a nice guy. He doesn't start shit with anybody. He's walking through a bar, and there's this really aggressive guy who's drunk, and he's talking a lot of shit. Joe Joe is walking by him. The guy moves, and he puts his hands on his shoulders, and he passes by. And the guy talks shit to him as he passes by. And Joe turns around and looks at him. And apparently, the guy had been obnoxious all night, and Joe had been seeing him being obnoxious all night. And Joe looks at him and says, What the fuck did you say? And the guy flinches at him. And Joe just, just two shots and one as he's on the way down, and he's out cold. Watch this video because it's- That's exactly- It's a classic. That's exactly. Look at this guy. This guy actually wound up suing him and losing. The guy sued him and lost. So watch, Joe passes him, and then the guy says something. He turns around, like he flinches on him. Yeah.


Wrong guy. Those videos, people love those videos.


That's the hundreds of people. That's the hundreds of people that I've come across.


Karma. You're like karma's warrior. Going out to the bar, knock down douchebags.


But back in the day before I became tank, oh, my God. All the time. I've never acted that way. I have. Only because I would see them acting that way, I would go and overdo what they were doing.


Just to go them on?




Do you ever wonder what it would be like if you were born in a different timeline and you lived in today's UFC? Do you ever think about it? When you see how big is now and you see the different rules?


Sure. You know, these kids and whatever. I guess they're kids. They're kids to us. Yeah, exactly. They think they put a new spin on the wheel. The wheel has been around for a long time, and you don't understand that just because you learned a leg lock doesn't make you tough. And there's If you have them old bruises out there, they'll take it to you.


Yeah, there certainly are. But it's a different thing now. It's a different thing with the five rounds with the World Championship fight. It's a different thing.


It's more of a skill.


I think it would be The problem is people wouldn't enjoy the entertainment values much because people get tired. You can't really fight for 15 minutes straight. You're going to get exhausted. But you can fight for 15 minutes if you take a break every five minutes.


Oh, there's not Not a problem, I don't think, with rounds. But when somebody, say, McCartney, gets to pick and choose when to break up the fight- Yeah, I don't like that.


I don't like that at all.


It opens the door for corruption.


Even though I'm a hypocrite, so I will say when I'm doing commentary, they should probably break this up because I'm getting bored. But I really do believe that. I think the thing is they're allowed to break them up now. It's part of the rule set inactivity. But I don't think that should be in the rules. I also have another controversial opinion. I think if you take a guy down and you're on top of him at the end of the first round and you're ground and pounding, I think the second round starts in that exact same position. They have cameras. It's super easy to duplicate.


They done that in Japan.


They should do it. They should do that here. Why should you be allowed to start standing up, which is a hugely advantageous position for a striker? Right. Hugely, and you didn't earn it. You did not earn the stand up. If you got taken down and you got controlled, you never escape that. And you might not ever escape it if it wasn't for you being stood up and you starting for the next round. Who knows? So not only do you get to get up, but you get a whole minute to recover, and then you started in an advantageous position for yourself. It's like it's imbalanced. It's imbalanced. Grappling is a huge part of fighting. And if you're not a good wrestler and you're not a good grappler, and some guy can take you down and hold you down for the whole fight, That's the fight. That's how it should be played out. That's reality. The reality is you never earned a standup. If you can't figure out a way to sweep that guy, if you can't figure out a way to get an underhook and get back up to your feet, then you stay down. And that should be what fighting is, even if it's boring, because at least this way it's realistic.


Yeah, absolutely. And like Mark Coleman, ground and pound.


I also think that if you're not touching the cage, as long as you're not touching the cage, needs to head to a ground opponent. I don't think you should be allowed to turtle. I don't think you should be allowed to just turtle and a guy sprawled on you and he's got a hold of your head and arm and he's on top. Why wouldn't he knee you in the head? Of course, he would knee you in the head. That's a very effective technique. That would end fights. That should be legal. As long as you're not touching the cage where you're not stuck somewhere, you got to fucking move. You can't stay there. You can't allow that guy to hold you in that position. If he does, it's just as legitimate as getting a tie clinch and landing standing up. It's the same thing. Stalling. Yeah. Well, you can't be in that. You're not safe there. Also, touching the ground and avoiding knees to the face. Bullshit. You can't do that. They should be able to knee you in the face. You should not touch the ground because if you touch the ground, your face is wide open.


You should be like this, or you should figure out a way to get out of there, or he's going to win, or he got the best position. There's too many rules that make it less about a fight and more about winning with the rule set. The touching the ground thing is so crazy. That guys have a guy clenched up against the cage, and if the guy touches the ground, you can't knee him in the face. That's bananas. It's literally bananas. The guy standing up chooses to touch the ground so that he doesn't get need in the face. That's a crazy playing the game part of the rules that doesn't lend itself to realistic fighting. That's not fighting. That's not an accurate assessment of what would happen in a real fight. If you leave some of the most effective things Other than, of course, eye gouges and nut shots and shit. But if you leave that stuff out, then you're leaving out really effective techniques that would definitely work and probably would end a fight, especially knees to the head to a grounded opponent. Right. Twelve to 6 elbows? What? How the fuck is that still in there?


I think they're taking that out now, right? Isn't that out now? They were just informing me. They're either close to taking that out now. You know where that came from? They were worried that people break bricks and ice on ESPN. So they banned the 12 to 6 elbow. All these years later, 2024, it's still banned. It's fucking crazy. They vote to remove. Nice. Okay. So this is in January. So is it into effect already? Is that it?


This might mean that New Jersey, I don't know if it's countrywide, worldwide.


If it's ABC, I think it is. I think it is because Hunter Campbell is the one who told me about it. It was either him or Craig. Craig Borsari. But do you know the guys that run the UFC now? You ever go?


I haven't been. I've been on a medical hiatus for a long time.


Yeah, tell me about this. Because they told you you were going to drink yourself to death, and they were right.


I did that. You came close. No, I did it.


You came close and you came back.




What happened?


Well, you saw what I used to do. I just got them done.


No, I mean, what happened physically to you?


Like, what surgery did you have? I got a liver transplant and a kidney transplant.


Holy shit.


And I died five times on the table.


Holy shit. Did they do both at the same time?


No. They did the kidney or the liver first and wanted to make sure it took hold. And then months later, they did the kidney.


How old were you when this was going on?


Six years ago. Okay. But I had... So 53. Yeah. I had five strokes, too. So sometimes I struggled Still, it's hard. I was, for a long time, really, really slow. After the strokes? Yeah, it was all on the table. And so, yeah, it was a rough- So do you have to take medication to make sure that your body doesn't reject the organs? Yes.


And does that fuck with your immune system?


Well, it is about the immune system.


But I mean, does it fuck with you? Do you get cold? I always wonder.


No. But you know what happened? I almost died from that, too. I was two days away, according to the doctor. I I got a round worm infection. They think hanging around for a long time. And once I got on anti-rejection medicine, it didn't have any resistance. So it started flourishing, and they didn't know what was going on. And I was like, no, you don't understand. I'm dying, not literally, but from pain. And they're like, we don't know what's wrong with you. Anyways, I couldn't take it anymore. So I ended up doing 30 more days. And this is after a while of being home. And I was actually going to the gym, crawling around on the wrestling mat, doing that stuff. Turns out the doctor saved me, Dr. Toto. He saved me twice. Two different surgery type things. But he did a biopsy of my bowels and stuff and found that I had round worm. He's like, You know where you got this from? I have some guesses.


Where did you get round worm?


Well, I don't know. I went to Costa Rica a few times, but I don't know.


Is it like a tropical worm?


Yeah. Round worm is like an intestinal thing. Okay.


So it's probably from something you ate somewhere. Right. And so now it's just overrunting your body.


Yeah, slowly. And I was in the hospital after... I did four months the first time. The second time, I went to the emergency room, couldn't take anymore, twice. And I was I was there for 30 days on morphine, and it was very painful. So I developed a chant of pain is temporary. Pain is temporary. And oh my God, for a month, they finally did a... And cut me open and did my bowels and found that I had roundarm and two days of medicine and I was better. Wow. Yeah. I imagine people dying from that must not be very nice.


Yeah. I talked to this dude once who told me that 90 % of people that live in tropical climates, 90 %, have some parasite in their body.


Well, it's possible.


I want to hear a nutty one?


This is what I was going to say. Okay, because I didn't say it. So when we went to Japan for the first time, I was there with a Brazilian fighter, and he was eating a lot of food, a lot of food. And Isaac, Bob, all them are like, Jesus Christ, you see how much food that guy eats? And I'm like, Who? I go, Oh, that's a guy. I don't give a rat's ass. What are you going to do? And so I said, Hey, why are you eating so much? He said, Oh, oh. I go, what are you on the gas? What's going on? And he said, Oh. I'm like, Yeah, on the gas, huh? He said, No, no. It's the worm, the worm. Oh, my God. What the hell is he talking about? Some type of Portuguese thing. And he was in front of everybody. And when I was in the hospital, David Isaacs came and saw me quite a bit. And he's like, Don't you remember that time? He was saying, Why are you eating so much the worm, the worm? He goes, It's a round worm. And I'm like, Wow, I never thought of that could be possible.


We were always eating dinners with all the Japanese people and everything.


Well, you could definitely get worms from food. If you get tape worms or round worms, that's a motherfucker.


Yeah, well, Almost killed me. Infectious disease doctor came in with this badge and everything. He goes, you're down to a couple of days left. Jesus Christ.


Especially with the medication you were on, right? The worms are flourishing. So you get rid of that, and they give you medication. And now you have to get a kidney transplant after the liver transplant.


A piece of cake.


That was easy? That was really easy. So the liver one was the bad one?


Yeah, I did over 120 days in ICU. Whoa.


What is that like?


I was laying there and my wife told me, obviously, that they were saying, It's time for you to start thinking about taking them off, unplug me. It's getting to that time. She said, This is like the surgical ICU floor. They could do surgery right there in your room that you're in. And at Cedar Sey, Beverly Hills. Yay. Anyways, she's like the doctor, Dr. Toto, he came to her and said, Hey, it's time for you to really start thinking about, does he want to live like this? I guess she told me I was just laying there with a tracheotomy with my eyes open and nothing moving. And she was there. Anyway, so David Isaacs came there and they were gone. He goes, I'm gone away for the weekend. I'll be back Monday. And so they were talking about it, holding my hands. And David Isaac said, Have you ever seen Awakening? I haven't seen it. It was like awakening. He goes, You had our hands. And he goes, your eyes came open and you started shaking your hands up and down. And so they didn't unplug me. And I'm still here.


Wow. Was that close? And you died five times. Do you have any weird memories of that?


When you have cirrhosis, went to the doctor's hospital and made it out by my house and got a specialty doctor, digestive, whatever, GI doctor. So he put me in touch with Cedar Sinai. You got to have a sponsor, someone to sponsor you to be allowed into the organ system there, transplant dance. And so I went there and it was like a meetings and association type. We're going to take you on. And then they say, okay, we'll see you in two weeks. You cannot drink anymore. Don't not drink. You can't do it. Not even a little bit. Nothing. You're done. Not a problem. And so I'm like, after a year, I'm like, Man, what the hell is going on? I mean, they just go there and they take your blood and go, Okay, see you later. Well, till the last time I went there, and you go in these little rooms, and you got these bed-type chairs, almost like dentists chairs, and they're sitting there, and they walk out, and they take your blood. And then she walks in, the nurses and the doctor or assistants. And all of a sudden, they get this panicked look on their face.


And mind you, I've been doing this for a year, year and a half. And I've met with the doctors, and the guy doctor said to me, he goes, I'll do surgery on you, but not until you lose weight. He gave me 50 pounds to lose. I lost 75. So they knew I was serious about the whole nine yards. And so I was sitting there in the a chair, like I am right now. And usually it's like, Hey, how are you doing? What's going on?


Right. But they were much more serious.


Very serious. And I'm like, Looking at my wife like, What's going on here? She basically died with me during this whole time. I'm like, What's going on? Something's not right. And she's like, I go, Go out there and see what's going on. And she comes back and goes, We're not going home. I'm like, What are you talking about? She goes, Your kidneys aren't working. I'm like, Oh, okay. Anyways, so I'm looking at her like, what the fuck? What's going on? And it was like the most alone I've ever felt in my life except for her. And the doctor and the Everybody are not making eye contact with me, not doing anything. And a girney comes in and they throw me on a girney. And I'm like, Hey, what's going on? And they're like, they don't hear you. They don't see you. You just become like a log. You know what I mean? You're sensory void. You're nonexistent. And I remember being pushed out of the transplant centers across the street, the hallway, underneath tunnel type thing. I remember laying there and the fluorescent lights above me looked like freeway lane lines. And I just remember laying there just going, Oh, man, this is a real deal.


You're dying. Consciously, it was like I died. It was like no one talked to me, no one heard me, no one saw me, except for my wife bouncing back and forth, trying to, Hey, hey, you'll be all right, all right, you'll be all right. And I'm just being pushed down this hallway to the hospital. And I remember getting pushed into this room with all these machines. It looks like the movies. And I'm like, wow. And I remember just laying on the bed there and just going, oh, Oh, oh, oh. And then my wife's comforting me. And I'm like, wow. And to me, that's when I died. And then I woke up with Isaac and my wife there. But I guess I was in that room for six days on the machines, and they were waiting for a transplant to come in. And one came in and told my wife, We got one. And she's like, Oh, thank God. And we're going to do surgery. Well, it turned out somebody else was waiting for one also, and they were a better match. And my wife said, They're a better match. She's an angel. She said, Let them have it.


So the doctor came back in, she said, like six hours later. And he said, All right, we're going to go to surgery. And she's all, I think you're messed up, even though you shouldn't be. But I think you messed up because we gave that other liver to somebody else. Kidney, right? No, liver.




The kidney is later. My kidney stopped working. Okay. So they put me on dialysis, I guess, and waited for six days. And so she's all, No, they gave that liver to the other person that was a better fit. And he's all, This never happens, but we got another one. It just never happened, ever. So they did me. And I was in a cat tonic state for weeks and weeks and weeks. And then they were talking about unplug me the dialysis machines and all that stuff. And he goes, I'm going to go away for the weekend And this is obviously conveyed to me from my wife. And take the weekend to think about what you want to do because this could be the best he gets right here. And she said the whole floor knew that that was talk happened. And she said everybody that she would walk down the floor with, their mood changed. She said it was total darkness. It was like she'd walk down the hall and everybody was usually, Hi, Sally. Hey, how are you doing? And she said they were just like, Oh, poor girl. And then Isaacs came in and she said they were both holding my hands.


And I Woke up.


How has this experience changed your perspective about just life, knowing that it almost went away?


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I'm a totally different person.


Completely. That's what you're telling me when I first saw you today.


Yeah. I used to be like, I hate to say it, narcissistic. Like, I'm going to conquer the world, and now you can't mess with me. And now it doesn't matter. I didn't care. Oh, you have that Good for you. I'm glad for you. Sometimes maybe before all this, I'd be like, Oh, man, how that guy do that? Oh, man, I got to do that. I'm better than that. I can do that. Now it's Good for you, man. Go out and mow down.


Isn't that a way better way to interface with life?




I wish more people could learn that lesson.


It took the hard way for me, but it's so unfortunate.


It's unfortunate that so many people go around angry at other people's lives and thinking that they deserve what that other person has. It's such a waste of time.


100 %.


It's so bad for you, too. You're carrying around just a bunch of extra bullshit for no reason, and you're doing it yourself.


Yes. And with Dana, I was in a dark, dark, dark place. And just there There's some medical things about that when you get ammonia in your blood and it makes you crazy. They had a warning thing around my room. Like, watch out for this guy. I guess I kicked I was a physical therapist in the chest and all that stuff, and I was ripping my cords out of me. But it's called encephalopathy. And I would just... To my poor wife, to people that I've known for years, I was just talking crazy nonsense, almost like Alzheimer's type. And they They would tell my wife, he's got ammonia in his blood and his liver doesn't work and it's poison in his brain and he doesn't know what he's doing. I believe that I left, according to my wife, because she would listen to me on the phone. I'd leave Dana Choice messages.


Dana White? Yeah.


It's not funny. It's funny if you realize how sick I was. I thought I was going to die. I was living the rock and roll lifestyle. I used to joke around rock and rollers couldn't even hang with me. Once I got into WCW, the whole... Those guys live rock and roll lifestyle. It's like an athletic rock and roll lifestyle. And I, as you can imagine, pushed it to the floor and pedaled in the middle, man, I was getting down.


Was there ever a time where you were realizing that if I keep going, when was that? When did it start feeling like that?


I use this... Well, when I was wrestling, it was the rock and roll lifestyle. You fly on a jet, boom, boom, boom, go for an eight-day loop, fly home, do your laundry, do your thing. And that kept me from really taking off crazy. But once WCW got sold and my contract was still valid and I had money coming in a whole bunch of time. So leaving Las Vegas with nick Cage, he's the agent And he gets fired from that show. Or not show, but talent agency. And he's like, Ben Sanderson. And he's like, what am we going to do now? He'll go to Vegas. I was Ben Sanderson after WCW was done, and I wasn't leaving every week to go somewhere new. I was like, what am I going to do now? And I go, I guess I'll just I'm trying to drink myself to death. Not consciously, but- But that's what you were doing. I was getting down.


So that's when the liver started failing?


No. My liver started failing when I went back to the UFC. That's when I held on, man. I pulled in physical feet. But when Dave Dana called me to come back to do my comeback thing. I'm like, Sure. And I got into shape, shape. But he flew me out to Atlantic City, I believe. And he goes, Okay, I need you to be down here tomorrow. We're going to do a shoot this whole nine yards. And I pride myself on being responsible responsible and doing what I'm supposed to do and being there on time. I'm one of those people. So I go to wake up, and this is like, I'm coming back thing. And I was supposed to be at this shoot. I could not. I was like, Could not get out of bed. I was that sick. And I almost missed the whole show just out of just crawling to get there. And I got there halfway through the show, and his agent or his person that worked for him came up to me and goes, Oh, here you are. Where were you? And I'm going, Oh, man, I just didn't feel very good. I was awful, nauseous, sick all the time.


So you think that's when your liver was starting to fail?


Yeah. There's stages, and And that's called a compensated liver, decompensated liver. It was compensated liver. And it's like all the things where your liver stops working and you get sicker and sicker. And that's when you start turning yellow. They would pump my stomach or my cavity, pull out a couple of two liter things all the time. It was just poison just running through your body like encephalopathy, going through your brain. I was a complete crazy. Like, You know, Ben Saunderson is the guy in Leaving Las Vegas. I make him look like a kindergarten. I was that out of control. I was insane. I can look back and just go.


Have you thought about writing book?


I have written a book, and I'm glad you brought that up, man.


Thank you. Is it out?


Yes. It's a trilogy. I wrote a 900-page trilogy. Really? Yeah.


Did you bring it?


Did you bring the book? Yes, I did. It's in my bag over there. It's three of them. The first one's called Bar Brawler, and it's about when... It's 300 plus pages long. It's about how the mid '80s and early '90s, how people used to be and how there's some really graphic fights in it. Some people think It's an autobiography, but it's written as a novel.


Okay. That's a good way to do it.


Yes. And the main character is Walter Fox. And Walter Fox, it's how Walter Fox goes through his life beating people up at bars and all that and ends up fighting in a show called NHB, and they call him Crazy Fox. And it's how Walter Fox, through all these trials and tribulations, ends up as Crazy Fox at the end of it. It's a trilogy, it's 900 pages long plus. Did you write all this by yourself? Yes. Every single page. I didn't have a ghostwriter or anything.


Just sit in front of a laptop? You write it up by hand?


I scribbled it out on a spiral notebook, a bunch of them. And I hunt and packed the whole 900 plus pages. Wow. Three books.


Why didn't you just learn how to type?


Because I'm dumb.


You know, Hunter S. Thompson never really learned type? Hunter S. Thompson was hunting and pecking when he was riding, fear and loathing in Las Vegas.


I'm telling you this, especially if you're a fight fan, it's called Before There Were Rules, and it's awesome. I'm pumping myself up. But if you want to know how a real fighter in my eyes- Before There Were Rules. Yes. That's the third book. The second book is Cage fighter, and the first book is Bar Brawler. And it goes pretty much the whole what we've been discussing. It goes through all of those things.


And where could people get these books?


They're on Amazon. Okay. And some people think it's an autobiography. Like I said, it's- Hey, it's fiction. Exactly right. It's fiction, folks. Was it plausible deniability?


Yeah, exactly. Fiction, folks.


There's a fighting promoter matchmaker, and his name is Big Bart Shady. And of that show, the NHB show, the referee's name is Winchell Duncan, and he's a little guy with a big ego. And so you could draw parallels, but I don't tell you how to think. But it's actually how Walter Fox got all the way through the bar scenes and everything that I discussed. It's how Walter Fox ended up becoming Crazy Fox.


Have Have you done a audiobook for this?




Did you read it? I listened to it. Okay. Somebody else read it.


Somebody else read it? No, it's on AI.


Oh, AI did it?


Yeah, it's pretty good. I was worried about the inflection and everything. It came out really good.


No, they're very sophisticated now. It's pretty incredible what they can do now.


It's awesome.


David, thank you very much for being here, man. You're an American original. You really are. I appreciate. It's It's been cool to know you all these years. You made the UFC a very exciting thing in the early days. You were one of the big reasons for its early success.


Yes, I believe so.


I think so, too. I think everybody thinks so. I appreciate your brother and good health to you. I hope you feel better. Thank you very much. Thank you. Website, anywhere else people can see your stuff?


Oh, yeah. No, just Amazon before there are rules.


Do you have a website?


Yeah. Well, what's it called? Instagram? Instagram?


What's the Instagram?


Tank. Abbott.




Yeah. All right. Anyways, yeah, like I said, I've had five strokes, so it's amazing that I'm even talking. But what was I going to tell you? There's my stroke.


I don't know. We were talking about website, Instagram, buy the books on Amazon, your Instagram, tank. Abbott. Oh, yeah.


Before there are rules. The first word, like I I wrote every single page of this book. The first word is misspelled. So all you narcissists.


Preemptively blocking people getting mad at you for misspelling things?


No, no. I like I put it out there as bait for all those narcissists to tell me how dumb I am.


Well, you could have just corrected it.


I misspell things all the time. No, no.


No? You're just always playing games?




All right. Well, thanks, brother. Thanks for being here, man. It's great to see you again.


It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me.


And again, best of health to you. Thank you. Bye, everybody.