Welcome to the Jordan V Peterson podcast, I'm McKayla Peterson for Episode three of Season four, Douglas Murray came on. Douglas Murray is an author and political commentator. Douglas Murray and Jordan Peterson discuss the collapse of grand narratives on the left and the right alike, the potential for the resultant explanatory and motivational void to be filled by more radical ideological ideas and the dangers posed by the mutual recrimination that all too frequently characterizes relationships across the left right divide. Can you tell those are Dad's words and not mine?

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I have the great good fortune on this January 15th, twenty twenty one of talking to Mr. Douglas Murray, the author of The Madness of Crowds Gender, Race and Identity A and I met a couple of years ago and got along quite remarkably well. I think we did. Douglas was gracious enough to mediate a discussion that I had with Sam Harris in the in what was the Olympic Stadium in London, if I remember correctly.

And we haven't we've talked a little bit since then, but it's been a couple of years.

So I've just been reviewing the madness of crowds this week. Again, I read it when it first came out, but I was looking at it again. I'm looking forward to discussing a whole variety of things with you, some associated with the book and some not.

But let's start with the book, at least some of the themes of the book, if you don't mind. You talked about how you started by talking about the collapse of grand narratives. And that's a theme that's very interesting to me. And I have a hypothesis that I'd like to run by you and see what you think. I I've been talking to a friend of mine here and we've been hypothesizing that maybe there are two large scale grand political narratives with an archetypal or mythological basis, and one would be the promised land.

So that would be the bright future that we're all headed to and different versions of that would be put forth by the right and the left. But the what what the hook is, is that something better awaits us. And there are certain strategies that we could use to attain that. And if that fails, then we have something like the infidel, which is us versus them. And so one of the things that struck me when I was reading your book was that.

It isn't obvious that we have promised land narrative that's functional in the West anymore. Partly, I think perversely, because things have improved so much on the material front that it's not really even obvious how we could. Extend our mastery of the material world to produce a better future. You know, we've plucked all the low hanging fruit and so that for most people I mean, I know inequality exists. I know there's relative poverty, but there's no straightforward solutions for those either or even solutions that necessarily would appeal to the imagination.

And so maybe we're stuck with some variant of the infidel, which is not a very.

Which is certainly not a grand narrative that's designed to bring about peace and know what you think about that. But I'd also like your your take on grand narratives as such and why you think they've collapsed.

Well, first of all, it's really, really good to see you, Jordan. Thank you. Can't tell you what a pleasure it is. And I missed you as as many people have said. It's really wonderful to see you. I appreciate that.

I've missed being around, believe me, and all the things that I was engaged in. Hopefully that'll start up again with this is part of it.

I really hope so. Yes. It's been on my mind for a long time. I've written around this subject a couple of books now, but the reality of the position of Westermann at this point is that he and she lack a grand narrative, lack an overarching explanation of what on earth we're doing here. And I think you and I probably have the same experience that when we were allowed to still congregate in public spaces, whenever you addressed anything around this issue, the whole fell silent.

I've noticed for years that there's all sorts of minutiae that our societies are exceptionally good at talking about, but we've become not only poor to talking about, but apparently uninterested in the most important questions of all, such as what exactly we meant to be doing with our lives, what we meant to be doing with our time.

We all know we've got a finite amount of time. So how should we occupy that time?

Well and well, it's funny because I would say in the past, to some degree, that question was answered for us by deprivation. You know, it was obvious what we were lacking. And so when it's obvious what you're lacking, when you're hungry, when you're truly hungry, there's no question about what you should do. You should eat. And if you're freezing and if you're overheated and all of those things, the desirable future manifests itself automatically in front of you.

And in some sense, we've been deprived of deprivation and are suffering from an enemy of prosperity.

Yes. And and and I think for some people, a form of boredom and and. Yes. And too much time on their hands and much more. There are different ways of circling around the same the same answer to the problem. But it's been very striking to me for a long time that particularly in political terms, the left has been really quite interested in this gap. It's recognized the size of it and has sought to fill it in recent years, as I say, at the beginning of the madness of crowds.

The most obvious way of filling it is with the horrible and dysfunctional and retributive replacement religion, which is identity politics into sectionalism. And all of this, as I point out in some ways, a curiosity, perhaps also an inevitability that let's say the respectable right, at any rate, has been pretty uninterested in answering these questions and hasn't even nodded to their absence. The right has in our lifetimes been very interested in issues of economics. And that's, of course, crucial, as you alluded to earlier.

I mean, if the economics are going well, you know, a lot of other things go well as well. When they go bad, absolutely everything goes bad. So in some ways, it's understandable that the right has been interested in economic questions, but it has left the I didn't, as I said, the sort of respectable bit to the right is basically left identity and meaning questions say, well, you know, find the meaning of things where you will if you come across it.

Great. We couldn't be happier for you, but doesn't seek to address these questions.

Well, maybe it's partly because the collapse of religious belief hasn't been as thorough on the right as it has been on the left. And still, there's still more people who are oriented in the conservative direction who have some at least some vestiges of their traditional religious belief. But, you know. Yes, well, and I would say, too, though, that it isn't the left that's being concerned with our questions of identity. Precisely. I would say more.

This is definitely the case in the United States. I think it's true in Britain and Canada, too, that it's the radical left because the moderate left. I have a friend in L.A. who's been working on messaging for the Democratic Party. He's been doing that pro bono as part of an independent group of Hollywood writers who've produced about a billion dollars worth of advertisements, they've been attempting to craft a centrist Democrat message. And it's quite difficult because. Well, and the reason they've been doing that is because the the radical left has a narrative.

And regardless of what you might think about it, it has motivating power. And in the absence of any other narrative, it tends to dominate. And the problem with generating a centrist narrative is that it tends to be incremental and incremental narratives tend not to have much persuasive power. And so you might say that what's happened is that there's still a subset of people who for whom for one reason or another, and that might be race or gender or sexual identity or any of those things any any minority status that would bring about it a felt sense of alienation that the narrative is clear, which is to either restructure society so that alienation disappears or to.

Well, that is the narrative is to restructure society so that that alienation disappears. And yes, and even though that may not be a narrative that works for everyone, the fact that nobody can construct one that's more compelling leaves a terrible void in the middle. And it isn't obvious at all how that can be solved.

Yes. Well, but also we get back to one of the problems that always exists for people on the right or certainly for small C conservatives, which is that they always end up fighting the next battle. They're going to lose precisely because of this phenomenon that the left and the radical left advances ideas. The right doesn't know. Conservatives don't know how to defend. Things such as precedent, tradition, just doing things the way you've always done them and recognizing that there's a virtue in that.

Well, it isn't it isn't that easy to sell a story that that, well, things are pretty damn good and try not to do anything stupid to muck it up again. The reason for that is that there's no real direction in it.

And that's especially true for people who aren't fully ensconced within the society and feeling that they have an integral role to play. So it doesn't work for conservatism, doesn't work for felt outsiders.

Yes, it looks, among other things, self-satisfied. I think it's one of the reasons why such radical young person rejects the conservative narrative because they say it only works if things are going well for you. I mean, again, I would dispute that. But but it's it's a tendency people have.

The other issue, though, on this is that conservatives in general, it's part of the conservative mind, are resentful of and distrustful of people coming along with grand narratives. This is this is obviously a Burkean insight is why, but takes the view he does the events in France and and writes about in the reflections. It's the most common trend for conservative thought is a suspicion of thought, a suspicion of thinking and a philosophy and of grand ideas precisely because of an innate recognition that such ideas can go so very badly.

Yes, it leaves. And I've always thought that this is a this is a both it's mainly seen as a disadvantage of conservatism. In fact, of course, it can be a very distinct advantage, but it only works as an advantage if things are going very badly wrong in whatever the utopian grand narrative project is that's being proposed know it's only when everything goes badly wrong with the utopianism. The people realize the virtues of the conservative system. It's only after the French Revolution when you when you've got the famines because you've killed all the people who know what to do.

It's only after the Russian Revolution when everyone was starving because the Bolsheviks don't know how to do the most basic things in food production. The people start to realize the virtue of the kind of conservatism that I'm describing. But until that moment of total collapse, utopian radical left is always going to be a distinct advantage. He's got a he's got a sexier product to sell.

Well, the other problem is, of course, and this has to do, I think, with the way people are wired biologically with regards to their emotional responses, is that if everything is going well, everything that's going well is invisible. Yes, because we're thrilled. We're so threats. We habituate to anything that's predictable and we're very sensitive to threat. So even when many things are going well, we're going to pay attention to those things that aren't and we're not going to pay attention to everything that that is working to maintain, say, this amazing infrastructure around us, which a conservative would say, well, it's very unlikely that this degree of stability and wealth can exist, let alone be maintained.

And we should be very careful with it. But but that's that it's a hard to keep the the impulse going for that narrative, because it isn't that isn't how we work emotionally, and partly because it's not efficient to constantly be grateful for things that are predictable. It takes too much mental energy.

Now, that doesn't mean that doesn't mean that the grand narrative that's put forth by the left and you talk about this, particularly in terms of, let's say, identity politics and intersectionality, identity politics seems to be predicated on the idea that certain.

Certain, rather arbitrarily selected features of individuals constitute the core element of their identity. I've never been sure exactly why it's those.

It's the particular elements that are concentrated on race, sexuality, gender, sexual proclivities. Say why those tend to be the hallmark. And maybe it's maybe it's because they're. Do you think it's reasonable to posit that it's because. The leftists look at groups that have, in fact, experienced some degree of prejudice or alienation in the past and and then and then make that make whatever it was that produced the alienation, the central characteristic of their identity.

Yes. And well, there's that. And there's also the other one, which is the illusion that you can do very much about it in our age. And obviously the other issues I write about in matters of crowds. The presumption seems to be in this election seems to be something around the idea of there's something you can do about it. Now, by the way, this is a very confused narrative because it both says there are, as I say in the book, there are hardware issues and software issues and it pretends that the software issues are hardware and the hardware issues can be software.

And he doesn't really know what to do. For instance, it says that sexuality is definitely hardware, whereas sex is software that just doesn't run as a simultaneous program. And it says, well, we don't really know what race is and it gets into a hell of a lot of trouble and dodges it on race. It says that the only the only thing people legitimately born into is an identity is being trans. So all of this is incredibly messily ill thought out.

But I have wondered whether it has something to do with this thing of you can do something about it, because if you selected height, which is obviously one of the other ones you could do, which has a profound impact on people's lives. Yes.

Or attractiveness. Yes. There's just there's just at some point you have to come across the think that there's nothing you can do about it.

And I would have thought that the age would be grown up enough or could be grown up enough to recognize that that is the issue on a set of identity questions as well, that, you know, when a famous pop star says, as he did recently, that he'd like to be a mommy by the age of 35, the age treats him as the people doing the Monty Python's life of Brian and say, well, where's the fetus gestate in a bucket, you know, in a box.

In other words, that the age wouldn't simply keep saying, oh, yes, that's possible.

That's plausible. So it's deeply confused and trying to analyze it is in some way adding, adding confusion to it. I simply I'm simply struck by the fact that there are a number of very major issues that occur in people's lives that are dogged by the age.

I don't know why they've ducked them other than this is this is the best approximation I can do, is that they've chosen the ones they've chosen because they know that they will cause maximal annoyance to conservatives, that they have the best chance of breaking down some of the most reliable structures that we still have in our society and that they baffle and confound.

Well, you know, it could be it could be simpler than that, though, and maybe less in some sense, less conspiratorial is that the identity politics, identity politics coalesces around any group where there's sufficient where there's a sufficient number of people with at least one thing in common who do, in fact, feel alienated and resentful about the general culture for for for for valid and invalid reasons. And so it's a crapshoot in some sense. It doesn't matter if there's consistency in category structure across the different categories of identity politics.

All that matters is that enough people will coalesce around each term. And yes, I think that's reasonable because many, many terms have been generated like ageism, for example, although we haven't seen we haven't seen much of a politics of identity politics emerge around it. And that's probably because it didn't coalesce.

You know, you could think about it as a Darwinian process in some sense, is that there's 100 terms of alienation and 10 of them generate enough social attention to become viable sociological and political phenomena. And they continue to breed. But that's because they breed whenever there's enough people to garner enough attention. Now, the problem I have with that, and this is something else I wanted to talk to you about in detail, is that because I've been thinking about this for a long time is.

The notion of identity that lurks at the bottom of this, because I think part of the problem with the identity politics grand narrative is that. Partly because of its incoherence, it doesn't offer anything that that looks like a real solution so well, and that's partly because of its it had its definition of what constitutes identity seems to me to be almost incomprehensibly shallow, especially for social constructivists. So so the idea I don't think I'm parodying this, the central idea seems to be that identity is something that you define yourself and it's a consequence of your lived experience.

And so no one has any right to state anything about your identity other than you because they don't have access to your own subjective experiences and their look.

I don't I don't want to I wouldn't want to make the claim that there's no there's nothing in that because there is a domain of subjective experience that's unique. And like Paine, for example, and there's no doubt that it's real and and that it's vital and important. But the problem with that seems to me to be is that identity isn't only a consequence of your subjective experience. In fact, it's not even a label for your subjective experience. Identity seems to me to be a handbag of tools that you employ to make your way in the natural and social world.

So it's more like a pragmatic it's something more pragmatic. It's like the role you might play if you were playing a game with other people. And you can pick your role, you can pick your role, but it has to be part of the game. And that means that people have to accept you as a player and that there are certain functions that you have to undertake when you fulfill that role. And that's actually beneficial to you. Right, because partly what you want from an identity is a set of guidelines for how it is that you should act in the world.

And the problem with a lot of these newer categories, and I think Tranz is a good example of that, is that even if the category was accepted as valid on the grounds of its proposed validity, which is the felt sense of being a man, if you're a woman or being a woman, if you're a man, it isn't obvious what that buys you.

You know, when I just interviewed I just interviewed Abigail Schreier, who wrote Irreversible Damage, and she talks about some of the consequences. Now, obviously, her book is quite controversial. In fact, I was terrified to even talk to her. To be honest. She's very brave person. And I've had a fair bit of that beat out of me, I'm afraid.

But it isn't obvious. It's obvious that adopting the identity of trans and then pursuing that down the medical alteration route carries with it some vicious consequences.

Yeah, so let's talk about identity. Yes, I am, I agree it does it provides you it provides you with a path. That's one thing that I've I've noticed I've noticed I noticed when I was interviewing various trans people for the madness of crowds, I noticed that it provides a path of what you're going to do.

And it's and this is was one of the things I noticed sort of early about that question was it seemed to be an explanation of a kind. For instance, you feel slightly alien in the world. And it will be sold off in this manner and there's a place you can go and well, all of us at some level and some people throughout their lives feel great disjunction with the world that we find ourselves in. It isn't at all clear to me that there is any answer whatsoever to that.

No, it's a permanent existential problem. That's man against society, essentially. And we're all crushed and formed by society to our detriment and to our benefit. Yes.

And and not just what society does, but our experience of life with or without society. To the extent that we can study man outside of society is what Kierkegaard and others keep going around what it is that we cannot know what it is we intuit about our condition in the world, which we still can find no way of expressing or finding our way to.

There are great mysteries about ourselves which we intuit and we cannot answer. And obviously it's what philosophy continually returns to. It's what religion attempts to answer. And these are the deep questions of humankind.

It's it's why all of this constantly crosses again.

It goes across, for instance, aesthetics because because our senses, our late friend Roger Scruton, often described better than anyone is our sense of beauty is is so important because it gives us a sense of that thing.

We know and we know we cannot approach something which is telling us something from a realm which we know we cannot access or can never access fully. These are these are central aspects of being a human being.

And and and and one of them, as I say, is the sense which exists in all our lives at some point and for some people semipermanent. That the world this is totally unknowable to them, and therefore they are highly vulnerable to anything that comes along and says this is science.

And I know well, you you point out in your book this is something quite interesting that supports this line of reasoning, which is you you talk about the stripping of a particular identity from someone if they evinced the wrong political platform. So Peter Thiel, for example, can't be gay because he's a Republican and Kanye West can't be black because he came out in favor of Trump. And yes, that does argue the fact that that occurs, that stripping of the identity occurs does indicate that the identity has a function and and and a purpose.

Right.

So it's a way of playing with it has a platform. It has a party manifesto. It's something to sign up to.

Yeah. In the absence of nothing or in the absence of anything else, it might be better than nothing. So the question is how tenable it is.

And and and and that the fundamental flaw that I see in identity politics is that. Even though it's predicated on the idea, at least it's simultaneously predicated on the idea that so that identity is a social construct and that it's a felt sense and it can't be both of those, and it is, in fact, a social construct with biological with biological root.

The fact that it's a social construct means that it's something that is by necessity negotiated with others, not imposed upon them by fiat. And it has to be negotiated with others because otherwise they will play with you. This is one of the reasons why, to an extent, I think I say somewhere in the book that trying to find the exact methodology of the prevailing ideology of our era is to a great extent like trying to find meaning in the entrails of a chicken.

And we do just keep coming across the same set of unexplainable, inexplicable, contradictory, self-contradictory, ill thought out ideas. The most obvious one, I say some ways and no other people have pointed this out now as well as these. You must understand me. Indeed, your primary role in the world almost is to understand me if I'm in the right set of categories and simultaneously you will never understand, right?

Right now, I mean, as I say, I think actually it's it's fairly obvious that if you can never understand where somebody else is coming from, then there's no point in discourse.

There's no point in speaking with other people or reading or of learning.

We just we are in solitude, all in such a Hobbesian state that that's a state of war. Perhaps the conversation ceases, war emerges. Except we can't understand each other. There's no there's no recourse except for force.

And this is why this obviously this is why it worries me so much when I hear this done by particularly by identity politics, people in relation to race and particularly obviously to do with it if you happen to be black is if people say you can never understand my experience, I think. But if if a person who is not black can never understand the person who is, then we are in a hell of a lot of trouble. I step back from that.

We have to work hard at trying to understand each other, including each other's historic pain, including each other's current situations. But we have to keep open the possibility that we can and will try to understand each other and to speak across these alleged vast divides, which I don't think are remotely as big a divide if they are a divide as the various, as I say, people who believe this ethos of our time claim. But but this is the one that worries me most and is profoundly antihuman apart from anything else.

Because if you say Sinon, be a part of one of these groups and then you've got this sort of, as I say, party manifesto set out, it completely ignores what most of us find to be our experience. I think if we're honest as human beings, which is that we like to be able to absorb, we like to be able to understand. We like stories. We like to hear about people who are not like us.

From the very beginning, we read stories about people who have no connection with our wider children across the world, read about princesses and princes and all sorts of other people who are nothing like in the state now because we like to hear other people's stories.

It's not just that they're architects. We want to find out about other people. We just want the experience that we happen to have not being born into that, because that's because that broadens our identities.

Yes, it gives us more tools to to use in the world. And we're we're obviously very good at that. And it is a matter of throwing your hands up in despair. If you say that that's impossible, it's difficult. I mean, we're each a solitude in some sense for multiple reasons, for maybe multiple intersectional reasons, for that matter. But that doesn't mean that communication is impossible or that it should be foregone unless you want the alternative. And the alternative is conflict.

Combat, yes. Yes.

Big. If I can't understand you, you're nothing like me. And there's no way that we can negotiate any peaceful way to occupy the same space. That's right. And so that's our maybe that's the catastrophe you're after, but it's not it's not an optimal outcome.

No. And it's one of the reasons why my ears have been pricked in recent years by a certain retributive, rebarbative, deliberately callous discussion of certain groups of people, certain types of voters and much more, a gleeful, willful desire not to even bother to try to understand their pain, which is, of course, as far as I can see it, nothing more than an expression of assumed generally vengeance. Well, that that brings us to another OK, so let's let's dive into that a bit, obviously, at least to some degree, you're referring to what happened in the United States with regards to Trump voters, and that's basically half the population.

Yeah, well, let's let's start there, because that's a good rat's nest to try to investigate, so.

What I see and have seen happening in the West, but particularly in the United States in recent years, is the beginnings of something that resembles an out of control positive feedback loop and a positive feedback loop. You know this, but I'll just outline it quickly. A positive feedback loop. So loop occurs when the inputs of a system and the outputs are the same. And so you hear this when you hear feedback at a rock concert, when a microphone gets too close to a speaker because the microphone picks up the speaker noise and then transmits it to the speaker and then runs it through the microphone, amplifying it each time until the whole system goes out of control, essentially.

And a lot of forms of psychopathology are positive feedback loops like depression. When you get depressed, your mood goes down and then you start to isolate yourself and and get a strange from the people that you love and your friends. And that makes you more depressed and that makes you more estranged. And then you start not going to work and that alienates you and makes your depression worse and you spin downwards.

And positive feedback loops can erupt in societies, too.

And you get that in societies that are in permanent feuds, which is part of the reason that the state has to exercise a monopoly on violence. It's to stop vengeful retribution from spiraling out of control. It's a real danger.

And what I see happening right now is that the right and the left are engaged in a process of positive feedback where one hits the other and the other hits back slightly harder. And then, well, I don't have to belabor the point. And I think that if you're temperamentally inclined to be on the right, you point to the left and you say, well, they started it. And if you're temperamentally inclined to be on the left, you point to the right and say, well, they started at the end, it's you.

Or and here's how they're contributing to it. And you can point to innumerable examples. And where where it all started is rather arbitrary choice on your part. The question for me is how to dampen it down. And conservatives have a real problem at the moment, I believe, because of what happened with Trump in recent weeks. And so let me tell you what I understand. And you tell me what what you think, OK? I mean, I regarded Trump as a reaction to Clinton essentially, and to her playing identity politics.

And I believe that Trump didn't win so much as Hillary lost and she lost because a sizable proportion of her base, the working class white males, basically, who were traditionally Democrat when push came to shove, choosing between her and Trump chose Trump mostly as an Upshaw's to the Democrats.

And so I don't see Trump. Trump's a symptom, although he's also a causal agent. Now, unfortunately, what's occurred in the last couple of weeks has made things unbelievably complicated because it does look like Trump went down the rabbit hole of the stolen election narrative and has caused a substantial amount of grief and misery as a consequence of that.

And so. Well, so I'd like your opinion about all that and then we can discuss what might be done about that from the conservative perspective or indeed, period.

Yes, I would agree with what you just said. I, I was in the States for months and a bit more before the election, traveling around covering it. And I hadn't been to the US for a couple of years as it happened. I travel a lot, as you know, in normal times. But I hadn't been to the US for a couple of years and I was horrified by the fact just normal discourse seemed to be impossible.

Across political divides, all dinner tables erupted in exactly the fashion that you would expect everyone to stock in their own positive feedback loops. But you did this first, but your site did that. And as you say, you could start from anywhere. But that was that was the nature of it when there was something else, by the way, which was I mean, my first estimation of the critique that the left has of the right is that they hate the right for allowing Trump to happen and that that isn't such a bad reason to dislike the right at the moment.

How do you allow this man out? How do you allow him to win? That seemed to be the criticism. And there is a criticism to make of the American right over that. I think it could have been a hell of a lot worse, but it's a reasonable criticism for the right to contend with the problem.

The right has to contend with the potential power of a kind of mindless populism, just as the left has to contend with the constant potential to be swamped by intellectual like ideology. And so. If the left tends to go out of control in an intellectual direction. An ideological, intellectual direction, and a lot of that is explicit in the Ensay and the identity politics ideology, that's that's that's paramount now and and maybe it was explicit in the form of Marxism earlier.

The right can easily respond to that with a pronounced implicit anti intellectualism. And I think that's exactly what Trump represented mehndi. It's funny because he was a kind of elite.

Obviously, he comes from a wealthy background, but he wasn't markedly part of the insider intellectual elite and he was able to express the frustration of the common person, so to speak, with the idiocy of the intellectuals in the in the manner that he acted essentially, and in whom he had contempt for, I suppose.

And you could blame that on the stupidity of the people who voted for Trump. But you could equally point to the. Red flag that was being waved in front of their face by the identity politics types and again, that's another place where a positive feedback loop can become instantiated, the issue is how to dampen this down.

So one of the other things I noticed was that, of course, on the right, there was a certain type of voter on the right in America who didn't just make peace with Trump, which was something that you could do. I wrote about this a number of times. You could say, well, these are the things he did which are reasonable or, you know, we're in power. So we should try to make sure that we exercise it well and and have whatever impact we can to improve the administration.

There was something else going on, which was people recognizing that Trump hurt their opponents, you know, that he was allowed to run to get it back at the left.

Now, I've heard that everywhere over, you know, like they definitely there was an element of vengefulness. Exactly. It was up yours to the left of kept producing people who have been provoking us and prodding us.

And we on the right in America keep producing sort of, you know. Bird presses of the Bush family or various other dynastic politics that corrupts America, we keep producing them that and we're just not giving anyone of equal vengefulness lowness a willingness to just hit people nastily if they can. Trump was willing to do a lot of that stuff, if not all of it. And a certain type of right wing voter had had enough and was willing to was willing to get the only person willing to play the left on equal terms.

And one other thing from that, of course, he did something that, again, the right has historically not been very good at, which is having a program of his own, not just fighting the next battle. You're going to lose the battle. People tend to think of the battleground of politics as being sort of level. And it is and at times it tilts more one way than the other. At times, historically, it's harder to advocate left wing proposals on certain things, and then it suddenly becomes all downhill.

It becomes easy to do it in the same way the right tends to be at a disadvantage constantly having to push uphill.

And inevitably what it does is it makes a compromise with the latest left wing demand and therefore the left actually accumulates a bit more power, a bit more influence, a bit more furtherance of its ideology. And that that that slightly sloped situation that existed in American politics, in the views of a lot of people on the right for some years, Donald Trump comes along and seems to do that to it. He seems to be willing to say, no, no, no, we're not just going to be on the back foot fighting.

The next thing the left's going to win. We're actually going to do stuff of our own. And that is the dynamic that has been missing in American politics. And I think to that extent, a certain type of right wing voter was willing not just to be to make peace with Trump, but actually willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and indeed to allow him to use the tools of government.

When I channeled my inner red neck, which wasn't that difficult, given that I'm from Alberta, which is a rather conservative and sort of self consciously proud redneck Texas of Canada, I suppose. And I'm not saying that in an entirely disparaging way. There are certain advantages to that. Anyways, when I was channeling my inner redneck, I could certainly come into contact with feelings of exactly that type. It was because I could imagine myself in the building chamber reaching out to put the checkmark next to Hillary's name and saying all to hell with it, which is a hell, which is a hell of a thing to say in the ballot room and putting a check by Trump's name.

You know, when you can do that quite easily, too, when you think, well, it's just your vote. It's one among millions of votes. And what difference does a little impulsiveness on and a little vengefulness on my part make? And Trump was definitely a candidate of resentment, although I think you could say exactly the same thing about Hillary. And the fact that we had candidates of resentment is a bad. That's bad because resentment, resentment is a terrible, terrible motivation.

One of the worst of it has tended to be identified with the left on politics. And I think now it is equally at least able to be identified with the right. But here we come to do what I regard as being the real challenge in terms of the deep underlying question of how we try to improve this in America. The thing that struck me most was this. I and I wrote about this in The Spectator recently. I was very worried by one thing in particular, which is what happens when you don't just have different interpretations of events, but the thing that you've just seen, you disagree on the nature of what it was you saw.

No opinions, nothing, man.

It's disagreement about facts. That's everything. And that's the perception now in in political terms, Democratic terms, this is, of course, an absolute catastrophe, because that's, as I was saying, some friends in Britain recently that the great one of the great things about Democratic politics isn't just that it gives you a winner, it gives you a loser.

In the UK, the by 1997, the conservatives have been in power for 18 years, most of them under Margaret Thatcher and then under a weak successor. And by 1997, the British public have had enough of the conservatives. The best interpretation is that they have become weak and they were very, very weak. They also appeared to be slightly corrupt around the edges. They seemed to be to be all sorts. They seem to be hypocritical on morality issues and much more.

The country had had enough of them and they voted them out in a landslide and for 13 years.

Conservative parties in the wilderness trying to work out how to be appealing to the electorate, and it manages it in the same way by 2010, the Labor Party, the Labor left, have frankly become have become a bore to the public. They've been in office long enough. We've got the successor to Tony Blair, just like we have the successor to Margaret Thatcher.

We're on the weak and falling apart slightly, slightly. I don't use the word in a real sense, but a sort of corrupted part of the political system. It's late in the day and the public vote, the conservatives back into office, albeit only in a coalition of first. But the important thing about this is what does the party do in the interim? In the case of the UK, the left often loses. The 2010 election goes slightly further to the left and then crazily far to the left.

And then last year, in 2010 2020, the British public and its genius totally rejects the far left wing politics of Jeremy Corbyn. And now the Labour Party is in the process of trying to make itself electable again and coming into the centre. Why do I give this the most of your viewers obscure less than in the last few decades of British politics, because the most important thing in a way was not who won, but who lost and what they did when they knew they lost.

Yes. And as you know, psychologically, this is one of the most important lessons Freud writes about this in the essay on Melancholia is that that that you have to be able to recognise that the thing has been lost in order to be able to even love again, you have to bury the fact that has been lost to recognize that it is gone.

And what I am horrified by in American politics is the fact that mourning process is not allowed to occur. They cannot bury the dead.

They cannot grieve for the loss because they don't think they lost half of the other half.

And again, I don't want to make there's a technical problem there, too, which is that the margin of victory wasn't much greater than the margin of error. You know, and that and that's been a problem for multiple elections now, right, four elections in a row, it's been being too close to call. And, you know, there is always a certain amount of corruption. And in any electoral process, maybe it's half a percent or a quarter of a percent in a in a pristine system.

But when your margin of victory is of the same magnitude, then, well, then you can make a plausible case that corruption has has potentially undermined the validity of the process itself.

And, you know, both sides I'm not simply making an equivalence here, but I mean, both sides have tried this in American politics in recent years. It's not like it was obscure Democrats who pretended that Trump was an illegitimate president who had not been legitimately voted in in 2016. It was not obscure figures. It was the woman who was defeated by him at the ballot box who was among the people who played with the idea. First of all, we had the Russians that actually manipulated the ballot machine.

So remember that, you know, they all walk back from it now that they were or they pretend they didn't do it, but they were literally pretending and claiming that the Russians had managed to get access to the voting machines in America in 2016. And then they sort of slowly stepped it back and they had the Russians that sort of financed stuff.

And then it was Russian bots.

But for four years, the Democrats played with that. Trump then totally reprehensibly tapes that even further and says that the election results can't be accepted and he won't even leave office is the first reaction, which obviously is playing with the most dangerous elements of the democratic process. And so so now nine out of 10 Trump voters now still say they believe he won the election. In terms of healing this, the first thing I can come up with on this, the first thing, the most basic thing is that Joe Biden, after coming into office, has to make sure this never happens again.

How does that happen? I'm not an American. I can only make it. What friendly suggestions.

I would just make sure that the next president makes sure this can never happen again, that there is some bipartisan, nonpartisan way in which they agree who wins the election next time round and that four years from now, whoever hypothetically, that's what the Electoral College was supposed to be do.

Absolutely. And I suppose it didn't perform that function, but was still I do think, again, it's a problem of margin of error, a technical problem of margin of error.

You know, you can't you can't expect anything other than for there to be questions about the validity of an election. When it's that close, it's going to happen.

Well, now, you know, you can have these questions, but as long as you respect. The outcome, I mean, you can have very close elections and still accept, yes, in 1997, there was a conservative seat which I think was lost by nine votes and they got a recount after recount.

And eventually actually there was a revote and the conservatives lost by about 20 thousand votes because the voters were so fed up with the conservatives, making them vote again. But the point is, is, is that it was very close, but it would have been respected. It isn't just it isn't just the closeness of the elections in America. I like it obvious, you know?

Well, I'm not trying I'm certainly not trying to justify it either. I'm just saying that this eventuality is much more likely under those circumstances. Absolutely. But this this process that now stuck in if just not agreeing on what they just saw is is is lethal.

So, OK, so let's let's talk about that for a minute, too, because this brings up another technical issue. And the because you you opened the can of worms by stating that people now don't have differences of opinion about the facts. They have different facts. Yes. And the question is, in part, how is it under normal circumstances that people do see the same facts but then have different opinions? It means there's a very deep consensus on top of which there's relatively trivial dispute.

That's a much better situation. But part of the way that people do that is by using well, look look at it this way.

You have five senses, each of which depend on very different physiological mechanism. And that's because you can see things that aren't there and you can hear things that aren't there and you can touch things that aren't there, but you can't see, hear and touch things that aren't there. So you use this multidimensional process of of of triangulating. You actually use Pentangle reading, I suppose, with your five senses and you determine what's real. But even that's not enough.

Then what we do is we seek consensus. We say, OK, well, here's what the phenomenon appears to be to me. What do you see? And then if you see it and someone else sees it, and this would especially be good if we didn't share the same opinions, but we could agree on what we saw, then we think it's real. Now, the technical problem is now, no matter what you believe, you can find a like minded group that's discussing this avidly to to confirm your confirmation bias and what that means.

And I'm seeing this happening. I can't believe how rapidly it's happening. I'm seeing people degenerate into a conspiratorial paranoia and I'm seeing it in family members and in and in friends and like and as well as manifesting itself in broader society. And it's really I think we're driving ourself insane with the net.

Yes, I absolutely agree. I'm very, very worried about where we are. And I'm in political terms, I mean, it's obviously deeper, but in political terms, I'm worried about it because I think the right is about to go off in America, like the left in America has gone off.

Well, that was that was the likely outcome five years ago. It looked to me like that was why I tried to. I was concerned back in 2016 that things were starting to degenerate and that the left would wake up the sleeping right. You know, the radicals on the far end of the spectrum who prefer action to words, let's say, by a large margin and who are truly dangerous, I could see them being prodded into a weakness.

And it was very frightening thing. It still is a very frightening thing.

I mean, one of the things I've thought about a lot in recent years about this is, of course, this is is is not just the possibility of the two sides fighting against each other, but there ends up being no place to trust each other. This is this seems to me in my conversations with people of different political types, what I notice is that there is the most important thing if you're actually going to solve a problem and you know better than anyone how how much the political talk, shall we say, is actually not set up to solve problems.

It's set up for a performative thing. It's set up for people to just play their part and read the script.

And and almost none of our political discussion is actually problem solving oriented. Almost none of it. But when you do when you do get close to solving the problem, it exists and it exists. The possibility only exists if the other person is is able to be trusted by you not to pull some funny stuff when you're not looking.

And I was thinking about this recently, I think, by I in America. And I was talking at one point with Bret Weinstein on his podcast.

And, you know, I completely Bret is Bret is from a very different political tradition from from me. We have very different instincts on an awful lot of things and a lot of very similar things. But when I talk with Bret about problems like and we talked about poverty and homelessness, in fact, I, I completely trust him. And he allows me to concede where I am not willing often to concede because I'm slightly worried that, you know, for instance, let me give the obvious one.

I worry about the inequality discussion like a lot of people on the right, not because I don't believe in equality exists, but I worry that the people have been thinking about it.

Most are the ones with the worst possible answer for inequality.

That's another thing we should discuss, because inequality is a terrible, terrible problem. It's a society devouring problem. The only thing worse than inequality are the purported solutions frequence.

So it's it's a perfect example of it because every political side has a version of this. You know what I think? I think we've talked to this bit in the past. I think one of the reasons that the right finds it so hard to persuade the left to talk about immigration, for instance, is the left just doesn't want to acknowledge that it's that serious debate. It is because it notices the right is the side has been thinking about most and it doesn't trust the opposite.

The right has. So it's definitely something that both sides have.

So how do you solve a problem in this situation, if only by people from across the political divide trusting each other that they don't have something funny they're going to pull when you're not looking or put it another way, they're not going to do something when you're beyond your own competency on the subject you're trying to solve so that that's how you actually solve a problem. And now, of course, as I say, we're not solving any problems at the moment.

And I noticed this. I said that the last couple of years. It's like me. I have soured on our society, particularly whipped up by the wretched social media companies that make them rich, have turned our societies into a great many of our own, which scholars across the land. And it looks one thing dementedly and then it moves on to another big. And the problem about it is it doesn't solve a damn thing. None of the things, none of the things it focuses on and it focuses on, on, on, on.

Oh, what do we have?

We had we had the green issue in January was meant to be a climate emergency of January of last year. Every every democratic government was meant to announce a climate emergency. Then we had the covid emergency. Then we have the BLM emergency has been emergency after emergency and we don't seem to solve them.

In fact, we seem to we seem to make them worse when we address them because we can't agree on the thing that we're meant to be addressing. So, as I say, if if I was to try to try to come up with the things to solve this, it would be that the people from the left and right who could trust each other. But just just one other thing on the thing about that is the reason why I think we haven't been able to do that, particularly in America, is this.

In my view, the American left has an incorrect approximation of the proximity of fascism to the American political system or white nationalism to the center of the political system.

And obviously, Trump has given them a heck of a lot of ammunition, but they were willing to use it anyway. They've been using it for years. They wanted to claim they basically that fascism was very, very close. Now, you see seems like reprehensible scenes at the Capitol the other day. And you see the ammunition that these reprehensible people have just given the left to continue to pretend that the American right, all of the right, CNN presenters and others have said all of the right is now with the Nazis, with the fascists, with the the white supremacists.

And if that's the case, you can't if the American left communicate with anyone on the American right, because when you're not looking at they're going to smuggle fascism in and get you all. And the problem is that an element of the right look, sometimes it's a reasonable critique distrusts the left because it doesn't trust that its social welfare instincts are going to be then subsumed into their socialist instincts, are then going to be subsumed by a deep desire to have communism.

So so the right doesn't trust it.

Now, I think there are elements of the right that have, particularly in a market, deeply overstated the proximity of communism to the American political system. Just to think I'm one of those, though, I don't know why not. Well, I think that's something I worry about, you know, when I'm looking at this positive feedback loop situation arise, you know, I can't help but see similarities in the social identity movement and the Marxist movement. And I mean, you make that case in your book.

So maybe you're one of them, too. You know, some.

And I don't know if this is a situation where, you know, the left purports to see fascism lurking behind every right wing move, and do you think the right is just as culpable with regards to seeing communism behind every left wing move? I mean, I think it's a complicated. Let me let me give you a statistic here.

A friend of mine just told me the other day, you know, there's only two self-described democratic socialists sitting in in the congressional House in the United States. On the Democrat side, there's only two. The rest of them are moderates. And most of the moderates are moderate moderates. You know, now those two attract a disproportionate amount of attention, partly because they're incredibly savvy social media users, whereas the moderates aren't at all and are technologically or blind technologically in that sense.

But, you know, I guess I wonder how much conscience scouring. Everyone is asking themselves that, I suppose, now how much conscience scouring is in order after the events on the Hill last last week or two weeks ago?

Well, I think that would have been. That would have been shocking to a lot of us and and should be and I mean, it's it's obviously a it's a concern, I understand much more in the European context, because I know it much better. I don't know.

I think I think they have a fairly good idea of what's what's hiding in the woodshed in America. Use the cold comfort farm analogy. I think I know that there is something nasty in the woodshed on the right, but I've never believed that it's got any chance of persuading the GOP.

To adopt its platform, if I think there are there are some nasty things in the woodshed, in every society and on the political sides and in the courts, the question of maturity in your political system is the extent to which you keep that woodshed locked.

Right now, it seems to me that in Britain, for instance, as a country I know best I spend more time in than any other country in Britain. I'm fairly confident in our politics that that we have that would shed very closely locked. You know, when when when a maniac killed a Labour MP several years ago, the late Jo Cox, and shouted Britain first.

We had nobody in Britain, nobody on the political right who said, I think we've got to understand the grievances of the attacker.

We had nobody, nobody nobody wants that anywhere near the political system.

So what about the grievances? What do you think's happening in the US on the right with regards to the grievances of the Capitol Hill protesters?

Well, here seems to me to be the problem. But on the political left and I saw this myself, I was I was in Portland and I was in Seattle on my travels before the election. And I saw the immiseration state that antifa BLM have turned those cities into. I was disgusted by what I saw. I was disgusted by the fact that I spent several nights with Antifa in in Portland and seeing them and being mixed up with them undercover, obviously seeing what they were doing to attack federal buildings and so on.

I was just horrified. I've seen quite a lot of the world. I've seen a number of war zones. I've travelled all across Africa and the Middle East, the Far East. I've seen a lot of things. I've never seen a first world city like that. I've never seen that in a democracy, never. And it's horrific. And I was horrified. What's more, by the fact that my left wing friends, with notable exceptions, like Brett, who I mentioned earlier, my left wing friends in America didn't want to hear about it or even concede that I've seen with my own eyes what I'd seen, because they just feared that, see, that's happening when you allow something.

And so they've been willing on the American left for years now to excuse and in many cases at a very senior level actually extol political violence. We have we have CNN presenters and Democrat representatives willing to say things like the protesters, not only, you know, mustn't stop, they shouldn't stop, they should keep going. And these aren't these aren't obscure figures that the people like Kamala Harris, the vice president elect, who were willing to play with encouraging along the protests that were roiling America last night.

And so and so in that in that situation, it wouldn't surprise me for a moment if there were people on the political right willing to say all make all sorts of excuses and say, well, the election is certainly up, but that's where the right will go wrong.

That's where the right will go wrong. And I think it has to be totally clear. And instead of just pointing out a double standard, has to actually do something different and say, you know, we are not going to excuse for a moment people assaulting federal agents and breaking their way into federal buildings and and and causing the death of a policeman.

We on our side will not in any circumstances give cover to people doing that. We will say it's wrong and we will say it's wrong, even if the left keeps on saying that its form of violence isn't wrong. Because the only way out of this is if we show people by demonstrating, by living, by extolling the way out of it, that is the only chance that I can solve.

So let me ask you another question. You know, I can I can two questions.

I guess I can hear the voice of a liberal friend of mine, a good friend of mine in in my head while you're talking and saying it's disingenuous at a time like this, two weeks after the Capitol Hill assault to talk about the antifa movements in Portland and in Seattle because they're of a different magnitude. The what what happened in Washington was on the order of an insurrection. And so that's the first objection. And the second one is that I had a brief discussion with my wife about.

Trump's claim that the election was stolen. And so I've been running this margin of error problem over in my head, say there was he he he was defeated by a small margin, relatively small margin. Now, the compelling piece of evidence that he lost, in my estimation, is the fact that and I believe this is right, that of 90 court challenges that the Trump administration has brought forward, only one has been upheld. And that includes the decisions of the judiciary where the judiciary was fundamentally Republican in its in its.

Yes, in its nomination and in its origin.

And so but and her response was, well, you've been saying for years that the judiciary has become increasingly corrupted by left wing activists, let's say, which is really something that's happened to a large degree in Canada. How do you know that the judiciary itself isn't irredeemably corrupt? And but I mean, I'm just I'm not willing to to go that far. I don't believe for a moment that Republican nominated judiciary members have been corrupted by leftwing propaganda to the point where they overthrew the American election.

But but it's the fact that that idea emerges is a real indication of breakdown in this trust that you've been, you know, in this fundamental level of trust that we've been describing. All right. So I'm going to let you riff on those.

Well, first of all, yes, I believe in order to I have I have endless messages, as I'm sure you do now, from the people on the American right, GOP voters who want to persuade me that the election was stolen and that everybody has let Trump down. And in order to believe that, you have to not only believe that all of those courts were wrong and were corrupted in some way, but, for instance, Vice President Pedants was corrupted and Mitch McConnell was right.

Right, exactly. All the senior people who. So it's worth dwelling.

It's worth dwelling on this for a moment because lots of viewers are going to have this as a question. They're going to be wavering with regard to their attitude towards the election. So what we're saying is that the fundamental here's the reasonable perspective. It was very close. No doubt there were irregularities, however. Yes. When Trump challenged the integrity of the vote, even the judiciary that would have been ideological, ideologically tilted towards him and even nominated by him in some circumstances over ruled his objections in the vast majority of cases.

Plus, you just said you also have to hypothesize that Mike Pence was somehow got to and that all of the right wingers, the Republican people on the right who are who refused to go along with Trump's claim that the election was stolen, all those people were subject to the same corruption.

So the only person that's allowed to be pristine from that perspective is Trump himself. Everywhere else, there's betrayal.

And I would strongly urge people apart from the US to look at the absurdity of that idea that the perfect the only perfect person in the United States is Donald J. Trump. Really, have you never had any doubts about his character? Have you never wondered about his priorities?

Have you never have you never allowed yourself to succumb to the temptation of gleefully using Trump as a weapon against people who have annoyed you in the past? And is your attraction towards Trump not generated in large part by a kind of resentment that you wouldn't be willing to proudly admit publicly?

You have to look and now you're in a situation where you have to think that he's he's the only paragon of virtue. This is not a this is not a road that I would recommend traveling down.

Absolutely. And I worry I worry that, among other things, the opportunity cost to the Democrats of not can not recognize the Democrats had four years where they could have realized that they lost to Trump in spite of the American public knowing who he was. Yes.

Not that they didn't know his character or his flaws, but they knew all of them and they voted for him anyway. That's a hard lesson to learn. And they should have spent four years trying to learn from it. And they didn't. And I.

Well, I don't know. I don't know if they didn't, you know, it. I think this this tangles us back up with the problem that we were discussing to begin with. I've worked reasonably closely with the great Hurwitz's.

Yeah, I did these and I met with you in LA. That's right. That's right. You did. You did that. I forgot about that. And we've talked also about the collapse of the grand narrative. Like it's not easy for the moderates on the Democrat side to get the stage. Partly they don't know how they're they're not social media experts by any stretch of the imagination. And they may have some some of the contempt that is associated with inability, with regard to using the new media forms.

They're not savvy in that regard. And they may have learned, at least in part, but I don't think they know how to control the ideologues on the left. And it's partly because they they don't know how to put forth an alternative narrative.

That is one very straightforward one that the American left could do it could recognize it, could be proud of your country. And feel is, broadly speaking, been a great force for good in the world without being a reprehensible person. Yes, absolutely. That's a very good place to start. I mean, I would say the messages, the messages that have been put out by this particular group and the candidates that they have supported would agree with that statement.

OK, so there but the problem is they could have got the money. They could have worked more on that.

They could have worked to try to make the deplorable feel somewhat alienated. Yes, they heard that they didn't want to make their lives more painful. They wanted to lessen the pain that could have been that could have ichi's.

But but but the point is that now there's the risk of the same opportunity cost on the American right, that they're going to spend four years with this obsession of the election that's just passed, that massive amount of attention of voters and thinkers and outlets and of money and much more is going to be dedicated, first of all, to this attempt to prove everyone other than the Trump family let America down in the last few months.

And secondly, that, of course, it's going to continue to be caught up with the Trump train and that he will haunt not just American politics, but specifically Republican politics.

OK, so let's talk about let's talk about this impeachment move then. So my sense was that. My sense is that in some way, Trump is better ignored than persecuted. Yes, and the reason I believe that is because of this move towards paranoid conspiratorial thinking that I see emerging everywhere.

And the last thing you want to do to people who are becoming paranoid is to persecute them. And absolutely, for the Democrats have if the Democrats are going to prosecute Trump, I shouldn't say persecute. Not in that context anyways. If they're going to prosecute Trump, they need to figure out how to detach the prosecution of Trump from the persecution of people who voted for him. Yes, right. That's a very tricky thing to do. And so I think it would be better to let him go with a whimper than to let him go with a bang.

Well, here's here's one way, by the way. I mean, I know when I was writing about BLM protests last summer, I attended by the way, I make a suggestion here by the American media is much, much more corrupted than the British media. We still have a much wider variety of platforms in the UK to allow people a wider and better array of opinion than the American media, which is almost totally sonke, not completely, but almost tabulates.

In Britain, we don't have quite simple. Why do I say that? Because no editor of mine would allow me to claim that everyone who went on a TLM march looted.

No editor of mine would allow me to write that if I even tried it and I wouldn't, I would immediately have my first edit back saying you can't claim that because everybody who was upset about the death of George Floyd last summer did not go and loot the local Nike store.

Some people did what it was too large a number and there were too many people giving cover for them and and so on. But you can't say they all did. Right? So let's play the same standard. Are you allowed to pretend that everyone who attended the Capitol Hill demonstration the other week was responsible for the most reprehensible people in their actions? No, you shouldn't do that. Are you allowed to pretend that all Republican voters or Trump supporters were responsible for it?

No, you shouldn't be allowed to do that.

I mean, we could try to not unless you want to live with the consequences. Absolutely. We could try to hold people to that standard is a perfectly reasonable it would have been Journalism 101 in America until a few years ago. It's only, as I say, because of the totally corrupted nature of the American media, but that it's possible for that to happen. By the way, can I just give a quick, as it were, a parentheses, all that I was just writing a piece yesterday about Andy Know and his forthcoming book, Unmasked, which I loved and is now the number one best selling book on Amazon, happily and but but I read one of the reports on the I don't get stuck in that type of thing because the left wing, the Democrat friend in your head will be saying he's talking about 84.

Again, I want to get those rights possible. Point to an example of the corruption of the American media. The American media reporting on the anti-war protests outside the bookstore in Portland and other places, trying to force them not to stop. And his book. The reports on that said things like these were unusual fringe publications, but ABC and other networks said things like and you know, who claimed to have been assaulted and hospitalized by Antifa in 2019?

I said, what is this claimed to be? Either the journalists in question was hospitalized or he was not. It's not hard to find that out. It's not hard to satisfy it so that you accurately represent to your readers what happened one day in 2019. You don't need to do these things, signal that you don't agree with the interpretation of the individual in question, which you believe might be attributed to you if you accurately report the facts. It's in these little slippages that the American media has gone so badly wrong and as a result, the American political debate has helped to go so badly.

So let me let me offer something that might be an analog to that maybe. And this might also be viewed by listeners or viewers as concentrating on rearranging the deck chairs when the ship is sinking. But in any case, last week the Biden Harris organization put out a tweet with a little video and it was Joseph Biden discussing what he was going to do to small business owners that had been decimated by this terrible pandemic. And then he listed all the identity politics groups that would be preferentially treated.

Now, he could have I watched that and I thought that was a big mistake. He could have because he's at the height of his ability to set his own agenda and not to pander to the radicals on the left. If he can't do it right now, he's never going to be able to do it. He should have said people have been devastated by this pandemic. Small business owners, we're going to do everything we can to help them, starting with those who have been affected the most, which is a perfectly reasonable place to start.

But he had to list Asians, Latinos, women, people of color.

He may not have listed that particular category, certainly blacks.

Yeah, and it seemed to me to be completely super, super, super superfluous, and yet and one of those small slips of the sort that you're describing that lead to this tip, that you had a positive feedback loop.

I saw that video as well. I was horrified.

I thought you if you're the incoming president, you won the election.

You have the most important opportunity now to help heal America. And you're pulling this well. And you also have something obvious to do in front of you all Biden or Biden has to do. There's nothing he has to do except immunize the population as fast as possible. It's like he's got the clearest mandate of any president that I can remember because the problem is self-evident. It's like the pandemic is terrible. It's it's killing people and it's driving them crazy.

And that's that's absurd. And we should get. This is one of my other big fears that the era of the pandemic, etc. it's the worst possible time to have an overarching conspiracy narrative introduced to the system by the American president. I mean, the outgoing American president. It's a very bad time, that's for sure.

Donald Trump must know this. It's it's one of the fears that conservatives always had about him was that he was going to pull some crap like this at the end.

You know, it was one of the reasons why a lot of good people wouldn't join the administration, why they wanted to keep him a million miles away from him. And this is a very, very dangerous and reprehensible thing for him to have done in recent years.

Yes. Well, you can see his he you can see his essential narcissism manifest itself.

And like it seems to me, quite likely that a large seventy five percent of Trump believes what he's saying can't conceive of the fact that he lost the election. And and I mean, maybe that's not relevant, although I think it's it I'm always trying to understand him from a psychological perspective. But I think his narcissism is so great that he's willing to risk. It appears that he's willing to risk everything in order to. Yes. To maintain his belief in victory.

Yes. Including the Republican, including the conservative voters. And, yes, more importantly, the Republicans. I think it's completely reprehensible. And I know there will be people watching who support Trump. And I still think it's very, very.

Well, look, we we we already we already we already walked through. Why supporting Trump at the moment is something that needs to be rethought. And we should. I want to get back to that just for one moment. Look, the problem is, is that if you want to maintain your support for Trump under the current conditions, that you're going to make yourself a lot more politically radical than you were last week because you have to swallow so much more than you did two weeks ago or three week.

You have to believe that absolutely every institution in American life is totally corrupted and that the only incorrupt, uncorrupted thing is Donald J. Trump.

Right. And both of those, like each of those things, is not true. And the combine the combination of them is even less true.

So so certainly it's very, very important that people realize that Donald Trump was in a in a society that was very close already to conflagration.

And he started playing with the matchbox in a very dangerous way from the moment of the evening of the election when he said that he thought he'd won it already and his insistence that he has won it still to this moment is a deeply corrupting influence on all of American politics.

And it's going to do enormous damage to everyone on the right of politics everywhere in the world for the foreseeable future. So I think it was reprehensible what he did. However, I add this to the fact that we're already in this era. I mean, since since we last spoke, Jordan, if we had when we last spoke, if either of us had said to the other that the citizenry of all of our countries will be confined to our houses throughout 2020 and 2021.

And made not to see our friends and our closest family in many cases and not to be allowed to go to the funerals of loved ones and much, much more, and that just basic things like shopping for essential goods would become problematic if either of us had sent this to the other one when we last spoke, we wouldn't be able to foresee the circumstances in which such a horror show occurred. We've been in the middle of this horror show. We're still in it in our respective countries.

And so, again, we already have a very dangerous situation occurring where we are all even more in our solitudes than the social media systems have already made us. We've already lost almost all of our remaining social antennae. We don't have the ability to feel exactly what it is in a normal situation, like down the pub or talking with friends in a normal situation over a cup of coffee. We've lost all of that in the last segment.

It's a very bad night, nowhere that isn't a catastrophe. And so it's very easy to believe that there's catastrophe everywhere, even when there isn't.

Because because and in this situation, our most important our most important duty, it seems to me, is to hold on as much as we can.

In this very, very choppy time and not fall into conspiratorial thinking or vengefulness or excuse of violence or resentment, resentment, legitimization of excellent political or non-political means and much more that we could point out we could point out, you know, that the Democrats are making a conservative argument with regards to the election.

They're saying, look. The institutions worked. Therefore, were the valid government, but before they can make the claim that they're the valid government, they have to accept the claim that the institutions worked and the conservatives shouldn't object to that because the conservatives believe that the institutions are valid. And so it's up to everyone right now to maintain their faith in the validity of the institutions and to not overreact and to remember that we've all been driven half out of our out of our minds or maybe more by this enforced isolation and the fear that the pandemic has produced and that that's also opened the door to a political catastrophe on the heels of the biological catastrophe.

Yes, everyone needs to breathe deeply and wait for the damn vaccination. It's only going to be a few more months before with any luck before this is brought under control. We don't want to burn down the ship just before it gets into port.

This is this is one of the reasons why I've again, I mean, you get criticism for making this point and largely at the moment from an increasingly conspiratorial inclined. Right. But, you know, I don't believe that the last the last year is simply some kind of training for democratic governments, coincidentally across the entire world to fundamentally reprogram our species or something. Right. That I don't I don't see it. I think there's all sorts of crises. I think that we've made the economies too secondary in a discussion on the public health for my taste.

But again, if we had a mature political discussion in any of our countries, it would it would have involved, as you know, I've discussed this before in Aristotelian terms to do with immigration. But I can do the same thing in relation to the pandemic, which is you have competing virtues of it. Yes, almost. Yes. Seriousness. You has a public health and you have the economy. And for a time in all of our societies, we over prioritise the public health perhaps and under prioritise the economy.

And if you don't have an economy, then at some point you don't have a public health system and you end up in a situation of a country where the poor and dispossessed are much more likely to just die. Right. And so we sacrificed.

We so what we're doing is sacrificing long term public health for short term.

Gains on the hospital front, and that's actually not surprising, like I thanked my lucky stars many times in the last year, that I'm not in a position to be making those decisions because it must be hell. And what we need to all step back and think, look, we might get lucky. There's a dozen vaccines that are that are making their way to market.

Many that have already arrived in a few months is a hell of a long time when you're living through it, but not very long time when you think about it in retrospect. And so if we're smart, we're going to.

And right now, here's an example of where the whole thing can both be mended and can go awry. One thing I've tried to alert some people to in the last year has been are we sure that it's are we sure that, for instance, it's worth our GDP's crashing and and our state borrowing soaring in this fashion for this virus?

The answer might be yes. But if it's yes, then you have to be pretty sure that nothing like it's going to happen again. And I'm not at all sure of that. I'm not at all sure that, among other things, because the country that gave us this virus is led by a communist regime that has done everything it can to cover over how the virus came about. And so he is one of the risks we have in the era.

We're going into the question of how to make sure that nothing like this ever happens again is likely to be subsumed and forgotten about, among other things, because a lot of energy is going to be expended by people in fruitless and conspiratorial pursuits, which will include conspiratorial pursuits against everyone in government, in their respective countries. And we will we will lose the opportunity, for instance, to hold the CCP to account or to make sure that they don't give us another virus like this in a couple of years time.

Because we also know from this this last year that we live in societies which are dominated by risk aversion. And a highly litigious I mean, many of the firms that will not come back will not come back because they were in fear that one employee might get the virus if they returned too early to the office and then sue their employer, for instance. All of these are there, not the deepest problems in the society, but there in terms of the technocracy of a society, they are very serious problems that need addressing.

I agree. I worry that we're going to address none of this because of the energies expended in fruitless directions. I wonder if we could just somehow again come come across ways to solve problems, and that can be done by trust being built across political divides.

Well, so that's that's a big part of this, is that I would say another. If one piece of advice is to understand what you're sacrificing by continuing to support Trump under these conditions, another piece of advice would be to risk trust.

Yes, at the present time, you know, yes, we've been through in the West, we've been through crises of various sorts in the past and managed them quite successfully, all things considered. And you could point to the pandemic response and look at all the things that have been positive about it. The biggest of those being the dozen or so vaccines or more that are in the pipeline and that have been produced with unbelievable speed and and apparent utility. And I'm praying that that's the case.

Knowing full well that, you know, vaccinating 100 million people with a relatively unproven chemical is a dangerous enterprise. But I'm praying that it goes well. And I'm praying as well that that trust I've been thinking increasingly. I wrote about this in my book that's coming out in March about trust as a form of courage. Right. Rather than because naive trust is useless and anybody who's been hit is no longer naive. And so maybe no longer trusting, but you can replace that with a trust that's borne out of courage.

And if you manifest trust, even across a political divide, you call to the best in the person across that divide by saying, look, I'm willing to trust you knowing full well that you're as big a snake as me, so. That's what we need at the moment tonight, and I'm hoping Biden well, I mean, I he has he is a great burden and I hope that he can be pragmatic and concentrate on the real problems and and help us put.

I was looking I was reading your book and I kept thinking, this sounds like the past to me because of the pandemic has switched things around so dramatically. It's like, well, this is so 2018 or or and and maybe it's not maybe it's still valid for today, but maybe the pandemic has changed everything, too. And, you know, we can put some of these. Trivial and adolescent preoccupations behind us and concentrate on the real problems at hand.

So some people listening will have heard me say this before, but when when the pandemic first struck in 2020, I was under the for a moment. I mean, I thought a lot of things, like all of us, one of I thought the secondary thought was, oh, well, the least that we'll see of all the identity politics nonsense. So I thought, well, you know, no one is going to have much time for playing gender games if we're all going to lose a significant swathe of our loved ones.

And I thought for a time I thought I thought, well, now that that'll make this subject to the madness of crowds look like a sort of dated, dated book already. Like, you know what? These books are written just before a catastrophe, which which wipes out the relevance of the book in question. And I sort of had I had that feeling for a few weeks, I thought.

And then I saw the same stuff coming in, the games being played. And then, of course, after the death of George Floyd, I saw one of the subjects I take from the book, Race Just Blow Up. And I say in the updated version, that was that was my experience of it was in a way, I was I was hoping my book was going to be relevant. And then suddenly it seemed to be right over the target again.

And and, you know, and it's it's strange because because I felt I felt already that what I'd seen it just and what I'd warned about had just exploded just after I'd warned about it. And as you know, you've had this experience. I mean, it's very worrying because you see the speed at which things pick up and the and the and the violence just catches faster than you'd ever feared.

That's a characteristic of positive feedback. Loops really spiral out of control unbelievably quickly.

And before we knew it, you know, in Britain. Suddenly, Winston Churchill was a reprehensible figure to ordinary people. Yes, overnight, and I resisted that, as I always do.

I resisted the attempt to smuggle in a new narrative about everything in my society and country, in my country's history, under cover of a terrible policeman's actions in Minnesota. But I think most people felt at that moment that they were on the back foot. If they believed, as I do, that their society had a lot to be said for it rather than this horrible, hostile rewriting that was being attempted on the back on the back of an incident, awful as it was in Minnesota.

And I and I just I but I saw the speed and the recklessness with which people tried to push in a new story.

And then I suppose one of the things I thought about was, well, what are the things that I suggest in the madness of crowds being ways out and are they still working or would they still be relevant in this situation? And perhaps I would say this, but I do find that the answers I give. I mean, they're not the most specific in a way, but I try not to be specific, I tried to give them the deepest, most widely applicable answers I can.

When you talk about you talk about forgiveness. And I figured that would be a good way for us to close out this discussion, you know, and I think that that's you know, I think that that that's a topic upon which much meditation could be expended and we have to live with each other. The left wingers have to live with the Trump voters and the Trump voters have to live with the identity politics types. And we have good, solid institutions.

And I think we need in the next coming months to put out our put out our hands to our to those who oppose us knowing full well that we might be burnt in the attempt but to do it nonetheless and to keep doing it because the all the alternatives are much worse unless you want to see things burn.

And yes, most people. And moderate and reasonable. Yes. And will feel deep embarrassment at some point if they allow their own political side to run to its extremes, they will.

You know, I, I think this about I don't to get stuck in them again very quickly. I think this about about what has happened in recent weeks on the Republican right that will be and should be some embarrassment. That a president, a Republican president, was able to stand in front of a very large crowd, mainly comprising Patrias, and to say words which were if that were not incitement, direct incitement, but were real fighting talk and raise the question of exactly what it is he thought the crowd should do.

You know, and I think he didn't ever want to make that too clear even to himself.

I think I read the speech carefully.

And yes, there is same here. It's it's it's here's what I think. This is what I would suggest you do if you were true patriots.

Right. And I think this is this is a reckless, reckless speech. And I think that people should have the decency on any and all political sides to say that recklessness. You don't have to go all the way to incitement. That reckless speech you've got to be careful with and you've got to try to limit it. And you've got to try to cool it out where you can and not just enjoy it, because at some point it will lead to something which will humiliate you and humiliate your side and much, much more.

It will make you feel shame and you want to try to avoid that. So in the madness of crowds, one of the things, as you say I referred to is, is this and I write a chapter on the importance of forgiveness. And and it's quite easy when you're caught up, as you well know, you're caught up in the sort of Day-To-Day fights that are going on and the endless information and new examples and new lows, but always being hit.

It's quite easy to lose sight of the of the deep underlying answers to some of our present performers. But I'm I'm absolutely persuaded that one of them lies in forgiveness.

And one of the reasons why I go there is obviously we live in this society, in the social media has exacerbated it beyond all previous human belief. We live in societies which are very eager to demonstrate us and them instincts without having to leave your bed. You know, you can shame somebody. You can you can try to destroy them. You can do your bit to pick up on something somebody said or one set and go for them and pummel them and destroy them and everything every future they've got.

You can do that. But you should also know how dangerous it is. And my hope has always been that the more people saw this, the more they would step back from this manner of living. But the thing the thing that struck me and made me write about the forgiveness thing in particular actually was.

Was something that Hannah Arendt perhaps isn't a thinker think I think over highly of actually all sorts of criticisms of her, like a lot of people have. But there's a lecture that Hannah Arendt delivered in the 50s. I happened to read a few years ago and just made an enormous impression on me because Aron says in this lecture, lectures, I think will be highly pertinent to a lot of people listening, which is that it's as we've always as human beings, had a one story in particular, which is how do we act in the world?

How do we act in the world, how do we put one foot in front of the other?

How do we put one word in front of the of another and see the next one and decide what our actions should be day to day, never mind year to year.

And we all have the terror of action and the young people in particular have it because they haven't tried it out enough. They haven't they haven't yet made their mistakes. And you've got to make your mistakes in order for anything else to lose some of the terror of the question of action in the world. But Hannah Arendt said something so interesting in this lecture.

She says she says, As human beings, we only ever really found one mechanism. To make the horror of acting in the world less horrific, and that was the mechanism that we know is forgiveness, which in in religious terms you can add to is also the possibility of redemption, which perhaps in a highly secular society, we ought to also think about more not just forgiveness, but redemption. And and I see that this is therefore something that we should all be trying to exercise in our lives, because we sure as hell know that we as individuals do not want to ourselves be treated without ever having forgiveness demonstrated to us by other people towards us.

We don't want to live in a situation where when we want slip, if we want where the wrong thing or make the wrong move or or make the wrong move on someone else or say the wrong thing. We don't want to live in the world where we at any moment can destroy ourselves.

Catastrophically and understandably, we don't want to live in that world ourselves. So why would we expect other people to live in that world or to want to live in that world? And the mechanism, therefore, that we all have to in our political and nonpolitical lives, because politics isn't done well, isn't everything. But in our political and non-political lives, we have to work at finding ways to forgive. And and there's a lot to say about this.

But this is this is seems to me to be one of the absolute keys in our time that we all need to work on.

How can I forgive a person who has done no wrong to me? How can I allow somebody else who may have made a mistake to to live again, for it to live again?

It's not it's not the same thing as you well know.

I mean, it's not the same thing as being willfully naive.

It's not about just giving people a second. It's the nature of the apology matters deeply as well. Of course, the nature of the seeking for redemption or seeking forgiveness matters. You know, we know that you can't just sort of say, oh, well, yeah, sorry about that and move on, that it has to be deep and deeply meant.

But when and when a feeling of that is deeply meant and is deeply offered, it should not be retributive and deliberately, willfully smashed the way in order to win a short term political or other point.

And so I think that's a good I think that's an excellent place to to end the conversation and for everyone who's listening to consider deeply in the upcoming months. Now we want to extend an intelligent and compassionate hand across the political divide and hope that. We don't rock the boat any further than nature has already decided to rocket and maybe will make it through this dire time and put things back together. And for all the right wingers who've been tossed out of power in the United States is you'll get your opportunity again soon enough.

And in the meantime, you better wish your new president well. Good talking to you, Douglas. And very nice to see EFIC to see I can't tell you what. A pleasure to see you, John. Thanks very much. I hope we talk again soon. I really hope so.