I woke up one day or series of days and didn't really think that my future is going to be better than my past, and that's a really scary place to be. And I think that leads to a lot of mental health issues and devastating situations for people. And it wasn't that I didn't like my life or my situation or my business or I wasn't proud of what we accomplished at times. But I realized that if we anyone in me specific in this situation, if we are looking to external accomplishments, external praise, anything, anything even your kids love for your sense of peace and joy, ultimately you will realize that it doesn't work.

And that is a really scary place to land. And that's where I landed. The things that were holding me back was not paying attention to the little things in my life, the internal things. I was so externally focused that I wasn't really taking care of myself. And so I've really committed even more so to journaling and the power of prayer and the power of meditating on and asking for clarity and messages from whatever you believe in. And it has continued to play a huge role in my life.

That's Blake Mycoskie and this is Episode five, 61 of the Retro Podcast. The Rich Roll podcast. Hey, everybody, welcome to the podcast. First up, I want to thank everybody who has ordered voicing change. My new book, The Early Response, has been overwhelmingly awesome. Thank you so much. To learn more and pick up your copy. Is it rich roll dot com slash B.S.. We're selling it exclusively through our site, not on Amazon, and we are shipping globally.

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I get tons of emails about nutrition, way too many to answer. And the plant power meal planner is really our response, our best effort to make healthy plant based eating, simple, delicious, affordable and most of all, convenient. So again, meals rich roll dotcom. OK, so today's guest is somebody I've been wanting to convene with for many moons. His name is Blake Mycoskie and he is quite the change maker, the man most famously known as the founder of the wildly successful shoe company Thom's, which not only was a company that pioneered the one for one business model where they donate a pair of their ubiquitous shoes to a person in need.

Ninety five million to date for every pair purchased, but also really sparked a generation of conscious consumers and ultimately helped redefine how corporate America thinks about and practices conscious capitalism.

But Blake's story neither begins nor ends with Toms, a seeker and serial entrepreneur, if there ever was one. Blake's latest venture is called Made For. And it's this really cool ten month program that applies key principles of modern neuroscience, psychology and physiology to make your brain and your body better. It's basically an at home spiritual quest guided by the best and the brightest thought researchers out there, including podcast faith and neuroplasticity overlord Dr. Andrew Huberman. As always, a few more things to mention about Blake and the epic conversation to come.

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To learn more, visit track Smith dotcom rich role and enter my code rich role at checkout. OK Blake, this one is so good, but it's much more than the story of an incredible career. It's about what it means to be a seeker, the power of bringing a spiritual perspective to not just business, but to life, to service, and a relentless commitment to persistent personal growth. It's a conversation about Toms, of course, but it's more about the kind of person that imagines toms.

It's about intuition, the stewardship required to scale an idea into a global phenomenon and the commitment to service that led to made for. It's also a conversation about breaking the addiction to external validation. It's about navigating the world through a spiritual lens. It's about not being afraid to ask questions and more importantly, the courage to face the answers. Without a doubt, Blake is indeed a very special human. It was an honor to finally spend some time with him and a delight to share this experience, chock full of sage business and life advice with you guys for those feeling stagnant or stuck.

My hope is that Blake's words catalyze change and help you find a little bit more inner peace. And lastly, if this one leaves you intrigued to learn more about made for Blake has generously gifted all of you guys twenty percent off the made for program. Just use the code rich role and get made for dotcom. I'm not an affiliate. I'm just spreading the good news. And with that I give you Blake Mycoskie. Right on, man, you're here in the flesh.

We've been trying to make this happen. I can't remember when we first started going back and forth on email, but it was probably like two years ago or something like this for a really long time.

I'm glad we could do it face to face. I appreciate you coming out here to make this happen. So many cool things to talk about with you. I'm actually like, what? What's the weigh in with this guy? Because there's so many.

But maybe one one way we can kick it off is to talk about this mutual acquaintance that we have.

Yeah, yeah.

I explain to people who April is, man, that is a hard, hard bill. April's a shaman and she has an amazing gift of taking people on Vision Quest. I went to the Medicine Wheel, which is kind of equivalent of America's Stonehenge, with her on top of a mountain in Wyoming for four days a year and a half ago. And it radically altered many aspects of my life. Yeah, and since then, I check in with her about every six months.

And for guidance on different things and her ability to connect and communicate with supernatural aspects of this human experiences is something that seems like impossible. But but she's always so accurate.

Yeah, I consider myself a pretty rational individual who also has a spiritual bent. Like I'm open. Yeah. And I've gone and done sessions with her and have never left one of those sessions without feeling completely rocked by her insight, all of which ultimately are proven true in the short term or in the long term.

Yeah, like all our kids have done sessions with her.

My wife goes to see her like all the time and it's amazing. Yeah. You know, and I don't know what it is.

I've stopped, you know, trying to answer that question.

But for me, it's while the way I've tried to explain to people who think that anything in this realm is is is very hard to believe. And that is like I have, you know, not legally adopted, but basically adopted Ethiopian son. Twenty four years old. And I met him when he was 14, living in rural Ethiopia. And I agreed to take him on and have supported him ever since. And he spends holidays with us. And and so for all practical purposes, I'm his second father.

And, you know, he and I always talk about how it's just incredible. Like, we don't pause and think about the fact that I can take a picture of myself or what I'm doing that day and push a button. And almost instantaneously, he's in rural Ethiopia on his iPhone. He gets that picture so that data travels through air, across continents, across oceans, and then, you know, lands on his phone. And so when I think of APR's gifts and people who had these gifts, it's you know, they have the receptor that we don't have that is, you know, catching information that is traveling through.

Right. That's the way I look at it, like a transistor radio. She has a dial. I don't have she can tap into a certain frequency. Exactly. Now, escape's.

So it's not that crazy to think about when you think about how the picture is Ethiopia.

What is what is an insight that she provided you with that that, you know, rock to you?

You know, there was a really amazing experience that happened where I had a vision when I had the wheel with her of a person from my past and a and a message to help this person out and help them out in a pretty significant financial way and doing it anonymously. And I called my business manager who thought I was completely crazy and said, this is what I want to do. I don't want everybody back to me and just wanted to happen. I had this vision.

It was it's something that really important to me based on some things in the past. And I had not seen this person in ten years and I did it and no link back to me. Nothing but this person I could have run into in the ten years because we have similar circles of RIM, but really for ten years had not written to this person. And then on a very, very important day spiritually in my life. Months later, I when when when seeing this person would have meant something to me.

And I don't want to give away this person's identity. I went to a yoga class at a studio in a city that I've never been at because I was there randomly and. Every single mat and the whole place was full except one mat when I got there late and I went and I sat down on the mat and this person was sitting next to me and I just looked at him and it was just I literally I don't think The Truman Show I looked up in and I was ready for the majority of the world to part the sky to part and someone say, cut.

He did it like he passed the test. And I mean, to this day, I get goosebumps telling the story.

Well, that's a very specific example of of what I think is a recurring theme of your life. Like this kind of shit is happening to you all the time. Like you, there is something about who you are, your presence, your disposition, your worldview, your energy that does work like this beacon of attraction. Not to get too secretive about the whole thing, but I think there is you know, I am a believer in that.

And I think that you're somebody who navigates the world from that kind of perspective of attraction like this.

Knowingness like this is going to work out like, oh, I'm supposed, you know, I really want to connect with that person.

I don't need to make it happen. Like, it will just it's going to transpire because this is the energy that I'm emitting from my dome, right?

Yeah, no. And that's played out in your life like a lot of times, different ways with my journaling practice.

That's something that over the years has really kind of really confirm this belief of that we can manifest manifest the life and the opportunities, because I've been journaling since I was 15. I do it every single day. It's like the one thing I actually more consistent journaling than brushing my teeth or taking a shower, like, you know, like, I, I just it's something I've always done. And a couple of years back, as part of a film project, I had to go back and read a bunch of my journals.

And I have like a big fire sale full of hundreds and hundreds of journals. And it was amazing to read what I was writing about at age 15, 16. It all came true by age 20 when I was writing about an age 20. All happened in my 30s, like and it wasn't like in some of it was almost in the form of prayer some people would characterize. But really it was just this is what I want in my life.

This is what I want to bring into my life. This is what I think I can do if given these opportunities to be responsible and to use my life for the highest service. And every single thing continues to happen.

So when you when you reflect upon that, you know, what do you make of that?

Like what what was the the I think it's kind of what you're saying.

I think there's something that we can't scientifically prove that that we have the capacity as humans to really if we put enough vision and interest in an outcome happening, if our intentions are good, I think and if it's going to work for the greater good of humanity, I think a lot of it can happen. And so it's not like it's a wish list. You write it down, it happens tomorrow. But the themes of all of it have happened in a lot of it in great specificity of what was written.

And so I've I've really committed even more so to journaling and the power of prayer and the power of really meditating on and asking for clarity and messages from whatever you believe in. Yeah. And it has continued to play a huge role in my life.

Well, there is something powerful about taking a thought that's occurring to you. And when you write it down, it becomes just a little bit more real. Yeah. And when you revisit that or you repeat it, it becomes a little bit more entrenched and then it finds its way into your kind of daily awareness and then it gets spoken about.

And before you know it, there's a, you know, a material representation of that idea, even if just a kernel to build upon.

Yeah, that's how all dreams are created.

Constructed, right. Absolutely. So when you when you journal, is it take a certain is there a form to that like is it it doesn't sound like it's the artist's way kind of morning pages. It's more intentional.

No, it's definitely not mourning pages. And I like that practice and I have done that at times when I've wanted to kind of create some more creativity flow in my life. But but really, for me, it's a little bit of reflecting on, you know, what's happened in the last day, week or know this experience today and what I learned from it and and kind of, you know, as if I was writing to a future self that wanted to learn from the experience.

Right. And then a lot of it is is and what am I you know, what am I wanting to bring into my life? So it is a little bit and the vision manifesting, you know, and this is what I want. You know, to bring into my life with my son this week, you know, I have my son this week and, you know, he's going to be I really want to bring into giving him experience to go boogie boarding and help him with his fear of the ocean.

And this is what I'm planning on, is almost like a game plan for my life. And and so for me, I think that also helps me. I think it's like I have less stress or anxiety with how I'm going to spend my time, because I kind of map it out in the journal and or what experiences I want to have. And then, you know, it also gives me a thing to go back and look at later if I need to.

If I was going through a hard time or having a challenging experience and really kind of see how that was affecting me. And oftentimes I find that what I felt like was really challenging, then turned out not to be so much. And then that helps me kind of deal with challenging situations in real time with more confidence, because it's kind of like that saying this child to pass. Right. You know, it's like you kind of realize like, you know, one of my favorite quotes of all time is from this poem, If by Rudyard Kipling.

And it says, If you can meet triumph and disaster and treat those two impostors just the same. And I feel like my journal has taught me that over and over again, it's like nothing's as good as it was when I was writing it down. And nothing is as challenging as it was when I was writing it down. Right.

And academically or intellectually, we know that to be true.

But when it gets tested in the real world, right when you're flying high and selling your company or you're at your low point, you know, it's pretty hard. So, yeah, like I put those in the ocean. Yeah, totally. There's a lot of. Talk these days about practices like journaling and mindfulness meditation, all these self care practices that have really become, you know, mainstream in a way that they never have been before.

So what was it about you at at 15, you know, in nineteen eighty nine or ninety or whatever it was when they began this process? I mean, there wasn't a lot of talk about it then, like what was going on with the 15 year old Blake that thought like I'm going to start journaling.

Yeah, I think I don't really know because my parents, neither of my parents were journal or so. I don't really I think most of the things that I did in my life at an early age resulted. I read a lot and I'm sure I read a book of someone you could have been through school or whatever that taught there was successful that talked about journaling being an important part of their process for me. Also, I was a really competitive tennis player and part of my early journaling was really from kind of a mental, you know, mental practice of like really journaling about my practices are matches that I won or lost or why I think I lost them.

And so it a little bit more of an athletic bent originally when I read those journals, a lot of it around my tennis and my desire to win and my frustration matches that I lost and, you know, in these types of things. But I really don't know where. What was the catalyst? I just know that something that kind of I've always done.

Yeah, one of the things that that I related to a lot about you growing up was your passion for tennis.

I was a swimmer. I mean, I'm older than you. But this story is somewhat similar in that we both had this passion for this sport.

We weren't the most talented, but we both figured out that we could bridge that talent deficit gap by working harder than the other guy to get to that place that we wanted to get to and how that, you know, informed you as an entrepreneur and perhaps continues to inform you today.

Yeah, I know. I mean, I think there's a real blessing, even though it didn't feel like it when I was the last man on the team every year, I think there was a blessing in having the only way to have any level of success was just to outwork everyone. You know, I think it's why my favorite movie of all time is Rudy. Yeah. You know, like I was so connected with that character of wanting to be on the Notre Dame football team so bad that he would do anything, because that was really the mentality that I had a tennis player, which has been probably the greatest gift as an entrepreneur, because being an entrepreneur is also and often an individual sport.

And and you have to, you know, work extremely hard. It can be extremely lonely. And, you know, the there's no certainty of the results. Same with tennis or swimming for you. So I think I a lot of what I learned and I think was my destiny was to learn that through tennis so that it could be applied to my entrepreneurial career. And and I think that was incredible preparation for.

Well, you strike me as somebody who who, you know, has always followed his curiosity, who's unafraid to fail, who, you know, kind of looks at the world with wide eyes and a very optimistic way and says there's a thing like, I could do that right now.

Most kids, you know, are not like that or they don't they don't filter the world that way.

So I'm curious about how that was instilled in you. Do you think that was hardwired into you just from birth? Did that come from your parents? I mean, you know, your dad was a doctor. Yeah.

Your mom cookbook author like Big Time Cookbook.

They sold like a million million copies of this, you know, butter cookbook or whatever. Yeah.

You know, who is the who is the mentor in the house that was, you know, instilling that in you?

Well, I think, you know. Have you spent any time with the Enneagram yet? Yeah. So I went pretty deep in the Enneagram about two years ago. And I'm a seven enthusiast and I feel like soccer. Yeah. So I mean, that's it's so amazing that Enneagram is like so dead on and so convicting when you think of the areas in my life that challenge me the most and how it's so just like prescriptive and reading some of the great work about the Enneagram.

But I bring it up because it really has convinced me that there's nine types that we really do arrive here with an operating system.

And, you know, if we want to get really spiritual about it, like maybe we even choose that operating system and maybe become multiple times and you get to become nine times and to try all the operating systems, I don't know. But I feel like I was hard wired as a seven since the beginning. And then I think then it's up to our parents to provide the software. So if the hardware was my personality type that I do believe is hard wired in, I don't think that came from my parents because my brother and sister have.

Totally different hardware. Yeah, you know, but this software is what our parents teach us. Our friends are places where you grow up and that is what kind of creates the uniqueness of each human. So that's the way that I kind of look at nature versus nurture is hard. Where we come in with in software, we get and hopefully we get to continue to update our software as we go. Right.

Well, your your hustle game was right out of the gate. There was no, you know, putting a clamp down on that. Right. Like from teaching tennis lessons in the neighborhood to the laundry delivery service company that you created in college. Like it's just been one successive business adventure after the other. I mean, I think a lot of people look at you and they think of Tom's obviously your biggest success, but that was the product of, you know, four or five businesses that preceded it.

Sure. And know and what I'm working on now made for like, it's totally accumulation of everything I learned from Tom's plus other businesses. So one thing that I think is interesting about my entrepreneurial life, and I say this because I've read so many books of entrepreneurs, I didn't graduate from college, but I literally don't know another human that's read more biographies of entrepreneurs. And I have like I just devoured them in my 20s because that was my that was the way I learned.

And so most entrepreneurs, especially, that they've started multiple businesses. There's usually a pretty clear link between the businesses. You know, you look at my career, I was in the laundry business, the outdoor advertising business, the online driver's education business, the television network business, you know, the shoe philanthropy business. And now in the space with made for to help people live their best lives and reach the highest state of well-being. And so there's really no direct links between them.

But what there is, if you and I really spent time thinking about this, is there is a cumulative of like I learned this, so this allowed me to apply it to this and I learned this and it made me apply it to this. And so, you know, now definitely with having this mission of trying to help people with their mental health and their personal wellbeing is a derivative of what I saw with Toms and what I experienced in that.

You know, a lot of people in developing countries, while they have very little material wealth, they have a lot better mental health than we have here in the United States. And so what are we missing that people in Uganda or Ethiopia or Venezuela, you know, in very rural areas are getting so right? And that's what was kind of the question that led to to really going down this path and working with scientists and really trying to understand that which led to the made for company.

So all my businesses, I think, even though they're not related, per say, they all have like this kind of ark of of curiosity and and personal experience. Right.

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I'm more interested. And not that that's not it. It's super fascinating. And perhaps we can recount some aspects of the Times story. But I'm interested in that inflection point. When you're at the peak of your powers with Thom's and you have this kind of emotional realization that all these things that you've done in some part to be, you know, a happy person.

Right.

Like you're doing it of service, you're running a business, you're employing all these people.

But it's also very much an aspect of, you know, these cultural drivers, these messages that we've been told our whole life, like if you want to be happy, will you be financially successful and you serve others and all these things and you kind of met your maker without a little bit in terms of, you know, really taking stock and inventory in an honest way with how you're feeling about yourself. So let's talk about that a little bit.

Yeah, I mean. It's looking back on now, it's it's such a blessing, even though it felt so challenging at the time, because I'm an achiever and I set my goals and write in my journal and say this is what I want to accomplish. And when you accomplish it, you expect to get a certain feeling. And I think most people in their life spend most of their life having these external goals and external accomplishments or family situations or whatnot that we have been told by society and the will result in happiness.

And maybe because I started early in my entrepreneurial life and I grew up fast, I achieved, you know, pretty much everything that I set out to achieve, you know, before I was 40. And that to everyone in myself at the time thought like a huge blessing.

But what it what I found was, is that I woke up one day or series of days and didn't really think that my future is going to be better than my past. And that's a really scary place to be. And I think that leads to a lot of mental health issues and devastating situations for people. And it wasn't that I didn't like my my life or my situation or my business or I wasn't proud of what we accomplished at times. But I realized that if we had anyone in me specific in this situation, if we are looking to external accomplishments, external praise, anything, anything even your kids love for your sense of peace and joy, ultimately you will realize that it doesn't work.

And that is a really scary place to end. And that's that's where I landed. I had accomplished everything. I'd been on the covers of every magazine I'd helped, you know, at that point. Eighty million children get shoes. I had made hundreds of millions of dollars. I mean, I literally had kids. I had everything that I possibly could have been told was the key to not just a happy life, but actually a meaningful life.

Like I you know, it wasn't like I, you know, just chased after, like the these hedonistic right. Pleasure.

And it wasn't just a company that was profit above everything else. Like there's such a built in massive service aspect of what you were doing. You really buffer you against you. But actually, I think in some way made it worse.

Well, the guilt machine because but well, feeling that way that but also there was nowhere to go. So if you think about it, if you had a traditional business man or woman and they built a huge company, made a bunch of money hallis, and they realized that it's really not what it's cracked up to be now, it can be a philanthropist like in the next 20 years doing that, but already done that. Right. And I realized it wasn't any better than, you know.

And so so I reached a point where and there's this this this amazing teacher who I love named Sadhguru. I don't know if you know you, but we got to spend some time together. We have a very shared passion for golf and we've got together. And he's stayed at my house in Wyoming. And and and he said in the in the yoga sutras, there's this one book and I forget which one it is. But the very first line is and now yoga and what that meant to him, as he explained, because he knows quite a bit about my life story is.

That moment was when my yoga really started. It was I had to accomplish all those things, I had to do all of that in my life to realize that the joy in the peace and the sense of connection to the great mystery that I've been searching for would never be found in those external things. And that's when I could start my yoga practice. Yeah.

And to to reframe it as an opportunity and ultimately to have to basically experience all of that on the grandest level in order to understand fully that it isn't the solution.

Right.

Because anybody who's listening or watching, myself included, know there's a little bit of that. But there's also like, yeah, maybe he says that. But, you know, that's not going to be the way it is for me. Right. And it's like it doesn't matter how many successful people you sit across from me and tell me, you know, their version of that exact same story. It always holds true. Right.

And yet it's so difficult to wrap the human mind around that. Like, how could that possibly be true?

Because it's so contrary to everything that we've been hardwired to believe since as long as we can remember.

Totally. I mean, I actually had a very prophetic conversation where I was told this was going to happen and it was by Ted Turner. So I looked up to Ted Turner a lot as an entrepreneur. As I said, I read all every biography and there's a few great ones on Ted Turner and Ted Turner had some similarities with me. You know, he started an outdoor advertising company before starting CNN, started a network. I lived on a sailboat for six years.

Ted Turner was a huge sailor, won America's Cup start, started a cable TV channel, started CNN.

So I was asked to interview Ted Turner maybe seven or eight years ago at the UN. And I got to spend the morning with Ted Turner. And he was a real hero to me. So I guess is a really special experience. And so I spent, you know, just months preparing for this interview and read every book again. And, you know, I was really excited to do this interview with Ted right before we went on stage. We're having this conversation.

And Ted said to me, he said, you know, we're talking about life. And he said, you know, in life and in business, especially in business, you know, it's like this ladder inside, like the corporate ladder. I hear about it. It's like this ladder of like believing that if you climb up this ladder, that at the top there's something magical and something that's going to give you everything that you've ever wanted. And as you start to climb the ladder, you see this beautiful bag on the top of the ladder and you can only think what's in the bag when you get to the top.

And he said, I spent so much of my life climbing that ladder to get a peek into that bag. And he says, and I've seen inside the bag. And of course, at this age I was like, maybe I was thirty eight, 40 years ago. I said, what's in the bag? I guess I'll tell you what's in the bag. The bag is empty.

And even though I've told you you still need to climb the ladder, look for yourself.

Yeah, he knows well enough to know that. Just telling you that ain't going to do it. And I never forget that conversation with Ted. I mean, it was one of the most beautiful life like to watch the movie of our lives. It will definitely be in the highlight reel of my life because he told me he said he saw me, he saw himself probably in me and saw exactly the path I was on and wanted to tell me, but also wanted to tell me that I still had to go down the road.

So.

So was there a specific moment where it dawned upon you or was it a kind of a slow realization, slow realization?

Did you pick up the phone and call Ted? I've arrived right now. It is indeed not a novel.

It's not for no. It was really more of a slow process. And I think that in in a lot of life transformations, I think happens, you know, kind of over time, you know, I think things just start losing their luster. You start losing a little bit excitement or energy around things. You start realizing there's some things up a little bit more shallow than you than you realize before. And and over the cumulative effect, you start just to energetically wake up and not have that same passion and enthusiasm and optimism that you've built your life around and that that can be a pretty scary place.

So, yeah, it was it was over time, over about a two year period of time for me.

Well, the thing that you have, though, that I think separates you from from other people who who've been in that place is. This seeker disposition, like your you know, from reading, you know, business, entrepreneurial and self-help books, as a young person like you strike me as somebody who's always looking to grow all the time. Right. Spiritually, emotionally, mentally, like there's a firm commitment there.

Right. No matter what. Like you're always exploring these different and new modalities. And I and I have to suspect that that's been a saving grace. Like to keep you on this, you know, journey of self-improvement no matter what, because it's rare.

It would.

The typical arc for somebody like yourself, like setting aside the one for one model of Tom's, would be, you know, make all your bank. Yeah.

You have this existential crisis, but you ultimately never really reckon with it or grapple with it. You just end up playing a bunch of golf and giving a bunch of money away.

Yeah, I mean, that's really and there's there's there's no judgment in that. And oftentimes people might have their external goals, whether they're financial or otherwise met later in life in their 60s or 70s, and then they can kind of coast on the golf course or wherever their hobby of choice is into old age and enjoy being grandparents and all these other things that are out there that satisfy them. But when it happens to you at age 40, you're in a different position.

And so I think I am very grateful that I had this secret disposition that I'm insanely curious. And I really believe that you can kind of work through any situation that you're that you're in. And so it really led me to go down the path of, OK, there are a lot of people in the world that are thriving and what are they doing that I'm not doing because I did everything that society told me to do. I did everything that my parents told me to do.

Like, I think I've really gotten a plus on on all these things. And I feel like this, but not everyone feels like this. And there's some people that have gone through what I've gone through and are thriving. And there's some people that haven't had to reach any of those external accomplishments and they're thriving. So what who are these people and what are they doing that I'm not doing? And that led me down, you know, working with, you know, many different scientists that study human behaviour, top universities in the country.

It led me to seeking out people like Sadhguru and other spiritual teachers like Rob Bell. Like I mean, it really led me down a path of really talking to the widest net of people, from scientists to shamans to, you know, going down to South America and having plant medicine journeys. I mean, I was willing to try anything but what I found and it's no, it's I don't I think it's it's no surprise that it ultimately led to something that then led to another entrepreneurial venture.

And, you know, life is like the obvious. I mean, that's what's going to happen. I feel like I'm so predictable at this point. But but it did because what happened, I realized, was the the the things that were holding me back was not paying attention to the little things in my life, the internal things. I was so externally focused that I wasn't really taking care of myself, not just in some of the traditional self care ways.

You know, we we we kind of spoke about the beginning, but some very specific practices that there have been, you know, kind of double placebo studies at university show have a benefit on how, you know, people's energy levels are, how their sleep is or their kind of mental outlook of the future being better than the past. And so what I found was even though I tried so many different things and met with so many different people, the the what made the biggest difference was actually working on the simplest things and just like really dialing in some simple things, like the power of my breath or spending time in nature and why that's important for my brain or how your mindset can change through neuroplasticity.

And that's those little simple things that I worked on is what had the biggest effect. And over time is that really started to kind of give me and ground me in feeling like I was more in control with how I woke up and felt every day. That's what led to and I think it were the disposition of that had caused me to start times like, OK, how can I help as many people learn this, too? Because there are a lot of people, I mean, out there suffering.

I mean, you can read any headline in the news now and you see that we have more people on antidepressants than ever in the history of America. You know, more people taking sleep aids just to get a night's sleep. I mean, we are as a society suffering and having experienced some of that suffering really motivated me.

Who want to do something to help people not have that suffering, who has done this? Yeah, 100 percent.

I mean, we're not in a great place with mental health, physical health across the board. Here we are the day after the election. The anxiety rates are like, you know, off the charts at historic levels, of course.

And I want to get into all these modalities. But I think I thought that I had was. Beneath the success and the admitted drive for external validation, that's that's been a hallmark of you in the past, there has to still be this undercurrent of humility in order to be that seeker, because you're not going to seek out Rob Bell or Sadhguru. You're not going to be on the on the on the path to, you know, sitting at the feet of wise people to hear what they have to say.

Unless you enter that equation from a place of humility, this place of like I have more to learn. Like these people seem to know something that I don't like. Let me allow myself to be open to what they have to say.

Yeah, I think maybe that's know maybe comes back from being an athlete and always like having so much respect for your coaches, you know, and like really at an early age, seeing that, you know, no matter what, if you're the best player in the world, you know, when I was growing up, who is Andre Agassi? You know, he's still head coach. Yeah. You know, like a coaches.

I've had a life coach for 14 years, and it's weird that most people don't like. We understand that, like, how are you going to be a great athlete if you don't have a coach? But we don't think of that in any other context of life.

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, I don't think therapist and life coaches get near the respect or the are held up with enough importance in our society, because I think being a human, we need coaches and they take many different forms and everyone can choose their own based on their spiritual beliefs or their, you know, their life situations.

But for me, I've always been oriented and part of the seeker mentality of like who who knows who's experiences, who knows this, who could coach me on this? Who could give me a perspective I don't have. And and I'm really grateful that I've had that mentality.

And I think it you know, it does the word humility is one that I think is always an interesting one, because people who say they're humble or like an oxymoron, you're saying you're performing on some level and that's coming from a place of ego.

Yeah. So I think I always but I do think it's fair in this situation to say that, at least from a disposition, is I approach my challenges with humility based on the fact that I know there is someone who has studied this situation or been in this situation and can provide some real value. Right. And I'm really grateful for all the people that have been, you know, mentors and coaches and therapists and people who have helped me on this journey, because being human is not easy.

Certainly is not one of the modalities that I know you're passionate about. And I know you talked with Tim Ferriss about this recently. Is the Hofman process. Yes. And I do want to get into this a little bit. Do you know what I know about it? I've never done it myself. Do you know Neil Strauss? Yes.

So Neil's constantly telling me I have to do the Dorfmann process and I know that I would glean so much. But he's like, when are you going to go?

People want to go apeshit. After our medicine, we look, you gave a gift to me. I was like, I'm going to give the gift to Hofman to you and do it right. So if the shamans going, you know, clearly everyone there's some gold there. Yeah. Right. No, it's it's I say to people, it's like I think it's like the idea if if we got a heart going back to the the analogy of we come in with an operating system, we get software like I think Hofmann is like getting all the bugs out of your software.

Like every software program is going to have glitches and bugs. And and we all have parents and we all have life experiences and we all have our own versions of traumas and things that, you know, really create patterns in our lives. And Hoffman is an unbelievable experience. And user experience is a process, but it really is an experience for, you know, seven days where you really start to understand why the heck you are the way you are and no judgment, good or bad.

But knowing why and which of your patterns and which of your, you know, ways of being or responses that are so automatic at this stage and hardwired into your brain, which of them are serving you and which of them aren't. And then they have incredible ways to rewire yourself, to let go of the things that aren't serving you. My favorite Hoffman story is and I don't think I've shared this, is is that I lost twenty pounds after Hoffman. Uh huh.

Now, I wasn't, like, heavily overweight. I was like, I'm like one sixty five now is like one eighty five. And that was kind of a normal weight. And uh, and I literally was carrying twenty pounds of stress. Twenty pounds of unknown, you know, things that I had never worked through from my childhood, you know. And and so Hoffman would never say that they were not a weight loss, not a thing but by by having.

Hormone's dysregulated, it's it's keeping you heavier than you normally would. Yeah, I mean, I don't know the science behind that, but it's like it's just there's the correlation is exactly to that timetable.

And I bring that up just because it's like Hoffman has kind of a magical effect on pretty much everyone I know that's ever gone. And people do become almost evangelical about it that have gone like that scene with Neil. Yeah, because it's just so liberating. I mean, it's just like you want every human to be able to live with this awareness and this freedom that you get through, understanding how you got to where you are. But a lot of it is, correct me if I'm wrong, about like early imprinting, like in your youth.

Right. And and the kind of messages that you're receiving as a young person from your parents and how those, you know, really become part of that. You know, it's somewhere in between software and hardware. Yeah, right. Because it becomes so entrenched in you that it really is your hardware at some point.

At some point, yeah. I mean, because I would say the thing is, is they talk about this thing called the negative love syndrome. And so basically they say is children from like age.

You know, basically up until age 12 is, you know, you all you need to survive and all you want is love or attention from your parents.

And so every thing that you do or learn to do is either doing something that's mirroring your parents behaviors and patterns to get their love or is the exact opposite of your parents to get their attention.

And so you can literally trace back all of it to help you understand these patterns that are basically becoming your software. And you can trace back to which parent or caretaker, if you had a grandmother or someone who was really involved and you can actually trace back to them either doing the same thing or the exact opposite thing. Right. And it's fascinating because then once you start to see your personality and your life experiences, a collection of these patterns, then you realize how unconscious you are and how you're living your life.

And and that is can be frightening, but also incredibly enlightening to people, because then you have the choice to choose do you want to continue to live in this unconscious way and just responding to things based on what you pattern, right. As a kid, or do you want to use these practices to disrupt those patterns and then choose a different path? And yeah, it's so in your case.

So what was what would be an example of an epiphany that you've had as a result of undergoing this?

I mean, one of the ones that's the most silly and kind of embarrassing, which I think is why I like to share it is my mom.

I was the first child and I was also the first grandchild. And my mom was a housewife before she wrote her cookbooks. And, you know, when I came around, I was her pride and joy. I mean, I was like literally the center of attention. Like, no one's been the center of attention because my grandma was the first grandkid. I was the first child I was. I mean, I was. And so my mom's whole sense of self for a number of years really revolved around this baby and then this young kid.

And I felt that in a big way. And it continued on even once I had brothers and sisters. And so my earliest experiences with women specifically in my mom was I feel really good.

We're on the center of attention. And so it's it's you start looking at some of my life choices and they've all been to get more attention, you know, and I mean, even even some of the really pure philanthropic stuff is like, well, that gets more positive attention. Right.

And and so it's amazing you become an actor, but you did do the reality TV, I guess, in certain respects. You did in some ways. Right.

But but what but was this is the fascinating thing is, OK, it's one thing to say, OK, like I understand where my deep need and comfort for attention is, but where is that holding me back? Where is that causing me to not feel authentic in my life and then creating some some negative emotions in my life? And so it wasn't like looking back at like, oh, some of the career choices. Those are so obvious. Now, if I'm someone who is starving for attention all the time.

But then it was something like really simple. And this is why I was in a meditation. Hoffman I realized I love to go snowboarding. And I realized that on ski lifts, you know, you have three or four people in the lift. You have fifteen minutes on the lift that my need for attention was so great.

This is embarrassing, but it's funny is that I would always manipulate the conversation on a ski lift to ultimately. So someone had to ask me what I did for a living so I can say I started Tom so they can tell me.

Great, I was asking you to do the same damn conversation, and it was so embarrassing to realize that my little boy and me still needed the attention so much, no matter how much success, doesn't matter how many magazine covers you.

We know now from Nebraska to say, so what do you do to be in Jackson Hole?

Oh, I you know, and so once I realized that it was so liberating because I stopped doing it, I was like, I don't need it.

It's not it's not serving me anymore. This is like limiting me from really learning about this person that could be like the most fascinating person in the world. Have a great message for me because I'm so focused on needing my own attention and it's created so much more.

Real intimacy in meeting with strangers is creating more comfort at parties like I don't like. I actually play a game with myself now where I tried like a new environment, see if I can get through the entire night with no one knowing anything about my professional life. You know, they learn things about me, about my kids. They learn things about my hobbies. But it really was I mean, that's a long, drawn out way to say one thing I learned.

But that's the level of kind of the root of things you get to. And then when you realize them and you kind of can laugh at them and look at them without any judgment, which is what happened really like you do, then you can be free from them.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's the most powerful aspect of the story you just told. Like, it's as funny as it is, the way in which you can kind of own it completely without that pang of shame or embarrassment. There is a freedom in that like you can. And that's I think that that's totally related to like the weight loss thing.

You're shedding that burden on yourself. So you're able to carry yourself in a lighter way, a more clear eyed way where you can be present with people and not be in that like need neediness kind of dynamic that basically is completely, you know, perverse and not authentic to who you truly are, like that inner child within it.

When you walked up today, your T-shirt for those who can't see you, that's true thought. And it was so, like divine that you were in that T-shirt because it is so much. I think part of this journey for me has being to look at myself and look at everything with no judgment so that I can live not just the most truthful life, but like truth to myself. And that's when I feel like we really get this sense of just lightness.

When there's there is no everything happens for a reason and you make decisions, good or bad, judged by society. But it's it's I don't believe that there's that any of it has come from a bad place. But I think when you do this inner work and things like Hofman, you start to put the pieces together and then, oh, like, I could beat myself up for being, like, always having to be the center of attention. And what a horrible characteristic that is.

And no one wants to be around someone like that. Or I can be like, no, I'm just a little boy who that's all they knew growing up. And so when they got out to be a big boy, they just had to keep playing the same role. But I don't have to do that.

Yeah, it's also not about vilifying your parents. Totally not. You know what I mean? Like, my mom was right. So but that that's been like a thing with me or like I have fear of of engaging with that process because I don't want to cast aspersions on my parents. But ultimately, that blinds me from the relief that I could receive by working through these things. Right. I mean, I'm a I'm a product of of of twelve step like, you know, I've been sober a long time.

So my entry point to any kind of tools whatsoever is the process of like, you know, performing the inventory. Yeah. Which reveals, you know, it's similar in that it reveals these character traits that you have that that, you know, tend to recur in your life and lead you down dark pathways. And there's a self-awareness that comes with that. And then you get into the immense process. But there's so much work that still remains to be done.

You know, I'll never forget sitting across from I had Cabramatta on the podcast. You know, I knew he would do this and I allowed him to do it. But for him to, like, kind of flip it and just start he starting asking me questions about my parents. And it's like, you know, to him it's crystal clear, like why I'm behaving the way I'm sure.

And it's like there's so much to learn and to be gained by by not being afraid of of, you know, availing yourself of all these interesting modalities. So I think, you know, at some point I will do the Hoffman process.

And it's not like you're not going to reveal what actually happens. It's like you go to this place and you undergo this experience that is very, you know, tactile.

It's not about reading a book or a work or like experience. That's a fun experience.

I mean, like there are challenging times, but there's some really fun times, too, that, you know, us as adults don't get the opportunity to engage. In and modalities in ways you do that, and so it's very I always say it's very experienced and I do think there are many of my friends who have hesitated. Most of them have all gone now because I'm quite persuasive in that regard. But some of them were the ones that had great relationships with their parents, like, oh, I don't want to go and vilify my parents.

And like, look, I had an amazing childhood. I'm still incredibly close to my parents.

And like everything that I learned, that I learned from them of patterns that I didn't want to keep anymore, many of them came from just, you know, the way that they loved me. There was nothing wrong with it. It just has there's a cause and effect for every way. Right. And I think what I've also found it to be incredibly helpful and and I go back to probably more than ever is how I parent my kids, because I'm realizing how good or how involved or how I'm trying to do.

There are responses that I'm creating, even if they're unintended and I never going to be perfect. Now, I have a spot for all my kids that age 21 to go to hospital or prepaid. So, you know, but and I probably the week after their hofmannsthal learn more about myself than I've ever learned. But but yeah. Like, it's a really great tool to have that awareness of how there are unintended consequences even for the right motivation. Right.

Well, let's talk about made for sure.

So you have this. Occurrence in your life where you're feeling depressed and not sure what the next thing is, you're grappling with, you know, meaning in your life, how does that ultimately translate into this new venture?

Well, it's fun because, you know, I as I've said and when we started our conversation talking about a shaman, so I think this is like the perfect segue into how this happened.

You know, I my first response to dealing with my depression and and kind of, you know, lack of positive outlook for the first time in my life, which was, you know, really intense for me because I'm such a positive person, was to go the super spiritual, super supernatural way.

So it was shamans and plant medicine journeys. It was, you know, the passan meditation retreats. I mean, it was that and there was a lot of insights and stuff that I gained from all of that experiences.

But I met a guy who was now my business partner. It made for his name is Pat Dossett, and we met through mutual friends and he was a Navy SEAL for nine years.

And he thinks probably like you would stereotypically think Navy SEALs think he's very methodical. Science only know fufu, no fads, no bullshit. I mean, this guy is like it's a shaman free zone. This guy got to use a workshop in a room with that. And I met him and we were on a surf trip together and we were talking about how I was going through was doing and and what his personal interests are. And and he's sure that, you know, if I asked this question to him and several others because I was also thinking in this way, I was like, if you guys didn't have to work for money and you can do anything you want to do with your life, what would you do, like anything?

And Pat gave an answer that was very much in line with kind of what I was seeking. And that is, you know, I would help everyday people live their best lives by getting access to the information in the science that very few people get except Navy SEALs and top performers. And I thought, wow, that's that's amazing. Like, I had kind of one of the that's kind of something I would love to understand as well. And so over a series of surf sessions and lunches on the boat, we talked about that there is an incredible growing body of knowledge in the scientific community of, you know, practices and habits that everyday people could to partake in and make a real difference in their lives.

And Pat, you know, was very interested in taking an approach that was very different than mine was was really interviewing scientists and getting them to share what they've learned and what they've been able to prove in terms of human behavior.

And so I said, I think this sounds great. So I was like Pat like Pat was working for Google at the time, is like, if you, you know, would be open to leaving Google and pursuing this full time, I would fund it almost like a research project and some of it for my own benefit because of the place that I was in. And we agreed to start working on it as a project. That's another thing. A lot of businesses I mean, Thom's was in a business.

It was a project for a while. And so it made for was a project and and, you know, shortly into starting to kind of kick the tires about, OK, what are some of the practices that are most prevalent in high performers and people who are living in a high state of well-being? He met Andrew Duberman, who I just had on the show. Yeah. And so and he met Andrew at Hofman.

Oh, wow. That's unbelievable. I didn't know that because that's crazy. Yeah.

So Pat went to Hoffman after I talked so great about it. And then if you've been to Hoffman, you can go back on the graduation night for any class. And we had a friend graduating and so Pat went to support him and Andrew was graduating and they sat next to dinner. Wow. So that's how that amazing. And so Andrew has a lab at Stanford that is a and he's a neuroscientist for people who didn't hear that podcast that you had him on.

And Pat started telling Andrew about what we're doing and Andrew just lit up.

Andrew is like, this is exactly what we need. Like we would a scientist get so frustrated that we spend all of our lives, you know, proving things that could really benefit humanity. But we don't have a delivery mechanism that gets out there unless we write a book or write a paper or this or that. And Pat and I were much more interested in teaching people in a experiential way versus writing a book or hosting a podcast or whatever we could do at that point.

And so Andrew signed on to join us and he said, OK, let's identify originally we're going for 12, going back to 12 steps or 12 habits of 12 months of the year. We're looking for 12 things that could transform someone's life, 12 either habits or daily practices that have been proven by the scientific community to make a demonstrative difference and working with. Andrew and him introducing us to other scientists and specialties, everything from sleeping to nutrition to, you know, breath techniques, we found that we can only find 10 things.

So we ultimately create a program it's called Made For. That is a 10 month program where each month we send you a kit and in that kit comes in, you're in the mail. You can have everything you need to learn the new habit or practice for 30 days. And and the the the kind of thinking behind teaching people this way versus, you know, using a digital app or a website or any other modality was what we recognized was in this time period in our life, we are so digitally distracted.

We have so much information. It's not that we don't have the information, but we very we find it very hard to carve out the space to really experience deep learning. And in order for deep learning to happen, you need to have something you do consistently without distraction. And so the made for program is completely analog. There's no digital app or application, and it requires, you know, a little bit of effort, you know, 10, 15 minutes a day for 30 days to learn or to experience this this habit or practice that can make a difference in your life.

And so we have a different scientists in different kind of university or lab partnered with each of the months. And and and it was, you know, basically a derivative of the ten things that I found made the biggest difference for me. Yeah, I love that it's analog. Not that there aren't powerful digital tools that are available to people, but when you kind of canvas that space, I mean, we're in the age of like people trying to connect with their wellness in a meaningful way.

And there are a lot of very, you know, well developed helpful apps out there. But they tend to pick a lane like this is mindfulness. This is meditation. This is, you know, sleep. This is a fitness tracker. But there isn't anything that looks at this holistically and even more specifically from the perspective of how you actually change a habit. Right.

Like if you can be on all these apps. But if you're. Lacking tools for how to actually make a habit stick, you're not going to reap the benefits of any of it, right. And so I think it's really smart and interesting that you would go the neuroplasticity route and really analyze, like, how do you actually get somebody to adopt a new habit with staying power? And that comes through tiny actions taken consistently, you know, that have staying power only through repetition.

Right. And breaking things down into their smallest little pieces seems to be the consensus about how we do this. You're either an all in person, you know, kind of that way.

But most people are not that way, you know.

So if you read, you know, Charles Duhigg or James Clear's book Atomic Habits, like they all kind of say the same thing, which is like you got to start with these tiny little things. And the problem is it's not sexy. It's not like I'm going to run an ultra marathon in a week.

You know, it's really like these tiny little things that no one gives a shit about and don't look good on Instagram.

Totally. And that's why as a business, it can be quite challenging because we and especially with having a business partner like Pat who's like no bullshit, like all of our marketing and all of our explanations of what we're going to help you with sounds really boring because it's like we're going to drink water. You're going to drink every two hours or something like that. Yeah, like I mean, we're going to talk about hydration. But the interesting thing about the water is, is the first step in getting people to really make a sustained change is convincing them that they're the type of person that can make a sustained change, even if they have the desire.

They're all the mindset that most of us have, especially if we're adults. You know, age over twenty five years old is I am the way that I am. And I've tried everything or, you know, this doesn't stick. And so we actually start with hydration because a, it's one of the most important, you know, aspects of how our bodies operate. And there's incredible amount of science behind, you know, the negative effects of even a small amount of dehydration, which a huge amount of Americans are experiencing every day.

So we start with something that we know is going to have a physiological impact almost immediately, unless you already have an incredible hydration practice, which most people don't, even if they think they do. And the second thing is it's so simple.

Like we have a very special water bottle that you get in your kit. It keeps track of how much water you drink throughout the day. It has a tactile kind of reward system with these like prayer beads. We move every time you finish a bottle. So you get that dopamine hit. You're like a final game of fine, but. Yeah. And so but what the beautiful thing about that is, is it something so simple? But almost everyone immediately experiences two things.

One, they experience the physiological benefit of being hydrated. But the more important thing they experience is I actually stuck to something for thirty days. I accomplished something. It was simple. It was water. But I can't wait to see what month two is because I have positive momentum. And I my mindset is now not one of a fixed mindset, but of a growth mindset. And Carol Dweck, great book, right?

Yeah. So the story changes from you don't understand. Like, I don't do that kind of stuff. I'm not the kind of person that does these things. I don't like that to a value shift where by undergoing, you know, the first of ten of these, you start to tweak the brain into believing like I'm the kind of person who makes positive changes in my life. And the cascading, like downstream impact of that is the most powerful thing of all.

It's less about the water and more about like that shift in self-awareness and that change in the story.

You tell yourself about who you are and what you're capable of for for people who have seen the movie Karate Kid, this is my favorite analogy is, you know, when Mr. Miyagi is teaching, you know, Ralph the cry chop, he has him washing his car's wax on, wax on, wax off. And Ralph is so frustrated like this is boring and on doing this there. And then there's that great moment in the movie when he immediately sees that the wax on is the the great blocking of the karate chop.

And that is a lot of what we have found with these practices and made for us. These are basic, simple things that we're going to have someone do. And the reason they're basic and simple because they're easy to stick to. So we set you up for success by not asking you to do Herculean things each month. There are things that you know anyone can do regardless of the time that they have available. We are very busy. And so the nice thing about these is, you understand, because in the kit also comes a 15 20 minute read on the science behind why you're doing what you're doing.

So you understand where you're going and what what the benefits will be by accomplishing the challenge that month. But some of them are a little bit like the waxing on wax off. You're like, oh, I'm drinking water, I'm drinking water. And then at the end, by some promise that we give you, we realize. What I really was doing was changing the neuroplasticity in my mind to tell myself that I can stick to something for, you know, every day.

And so in the next challenge comes, I'm gonna be more likely to accomplish it, even if it seems a little harder in the beginning, because I've built this this change in my growth mindset. And so ultimately, the the biggest reward of starting made for for me and I think Pat would try to say the same.

And Andrew would be, as we get the most amazing testimonials from people that have had transformations that have nothing to do with our program like we don't have.

I mean, you know, like that is the thing that's so cool is that people say, I've always wanted to do this in my life and now I just did it or I had this really challenging relationship with my mother in law that I've been avoiding for 20 years. And I fixed it. Or and people have lost weight. And weight loss isn't part of our program. It's you know, it's amazing. The what I say is what has happened is when people do these other things and they optimize their sleep through the program or, you know, they heal relationships or have a gratitude practice the all these things that we've all kind of heard of.

But when they do them in this systematic way, what they ultimately do is change their mindset. And whatever they do with changing their mindset just always astonishes me because I'm like, we never thought about that when we were designed this program. And that's what's been the most rewarding is we had these great Zoome calls with members and we just chat and they're going through it. It reminds me of the early days of Toms being on the ground, giving shoes and seeing the joy in these kids faces, because, you know, someone who's gone through a hard time and has faced something challenging, whether it was depression for me or the loss of a loved one or loss of a job, and then being able to grab on to something like the made for program and make a change, like there's just nothing better.

Like it's the coolest thing to hear these experiences that our members have had. And it's pretty new, right. Like you wrote last pretty recently. So you're in kind of like a beta test mode with like a smaller group of people or what do you. Well, we couple thousand people doing us.

Yeah. So we started actually. So almost I guess it was two years ago or a year and a half ago we finished the program and we did a formal beta beta test of a thousand people and they were friends, family. We did some, you know, kind of random advertising on Facebook to get some diversity and the and the beta group. And we had a thousand people do the beta group and we refine the program a lot. During that time.

We officially launched the public on March 4th, like a few days before covid hit. And it was it was a fascinating time to launch. I mean, it was it was really hard from a business perspective because we had all this media and stuff planned to share what we were doing, which all of that got squashed for several months because the news cycle so focused on covid.

But what was great about it was, I think, the thousand people that signed up those two months that did get the information through Instagram or whatever, we had means of reaching people. They have been come our greatest advocates because during a time of covid, when there's so much uncertainty, so much, you know, feeling of loss, so much change, so much fear, they were able to ground themselves each month and whatever they were learning, they're made for us.

And so we've actually seen kind of opposite of our projections where it started off slow and then it just had this hockey stick growth. And I think we have five thousand people going through the program right now. And and it's all been through this kind of people sharing their experiences, almost all referrals in that regard. And and it's been really cool to see that it has been something that people have really benefited during this challenging time of covid.

So what is the process of of bringing someone like Andrew Kuperman and and like what what kind of impact does he have? Like, it's one thing to say, OK, we want to take these people through a 30 day challenge and there's nothing unique or new about that. So where does the neuroscience come into play in terms of, you know, I would suspect like when your game of buying the drinking, like those are all little little tweaks that I can see that being a herberman touch.

Right. This is this is the thing that differentiates it and makes it compelling to the to the reptilian brain. Yes.

So I think a big part of what Pat and Andrew specifically really connected on was really Andrew's understanding of how the brain works and how habits are formed from a neuroscience perspective. And so things like moving the bead every time you drink the water, not only is your body feeling better because it's hydrate, but but Andrew was, you know, was able to show us how, like game of buying in that way creates this. Dopamine is so amazing because it seems so silly.

It seems so dumb, right. Yeah. Yeah. But like, our brains really love it.

We're simple, simple folks. You know, other things are, you know, like, you know, in the month about sleep. You know, one of the absolute worst things for sleep has nothing to do with how you go to sleep, really, but how you wake up, and that is people using their phone for their alarm clock. Because what happens is, even if you say I only use my phone for my alarm clock, what really happens?

And they have lots of studies to show this, is that when someone wakes up and they push the button for alarm, they see a notification, they see a text, they see an email pop up from their boss immediately. Their cortisol level just spikes.

And so any opportunity for them to enter the day with calmness and encourage and engage in a mindfulness practice, whatever that is, is gone. If and so really understanding things like why that cortisol spike happens when you see something that is stressing and then how to intervene. And so one of the things that you get in the sleep month is we give you an old fashioned alarm clock and we say for 30 days, try not putting your phone in your bed and see a do you fall asleep better because you're not looking at stressful things are going the Internet or last night looking at the election polls all night long, and then B, when you wake up, you don't have that initial strike of cortisol because you're not seeing something stressful.

Right. And so it's things like that that you start hacking when you have someone like Andrew who looks at what is actually happening with all of these little mundane behaviors that we humans do. And there's a lot more going on than we realize. Right?

Well, hydration and sleep, you know, it's easy to kind of grok what the tasks are going to be.

But among these 10 habits, you also have vision, clarity, nature, breath, movement. Like what are those look like?

Yeah, what is what does clarity look like or vision? Yeah.

So so that's really about and that, you know, in some ways goes back to the over decade that I've worked with this life coach out of Vancouver, Dave Phillips. You know, Dave really helps mainly works with CEOs and entrepreneurs, but he helps all people that he works with. Really understand how your your vision for your life and the level of specificity you have with it has such an effect on how you spend your life and how you spend your life, affects your levels of stress and feelings of happiness or whatnot.

And so I spoke at the earlier part about how, like I really feel that I manifest a lot of my life through my journals. But if you take that to a step further, is when you look at what your goals of your life is and have clarity around that, then you also recognize these are my goals. This is what I want to accomplish. This is what I want to experience. Well, then I got to serve these roles.

So maybe my goals are, you know, this, but my roles are. I'm a dad, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm an athlete. And then if I want to achieve these goals through these roles, I have to there's tasks that I have to do. I have to spend time with my kids that pick them up from school. I have to be there for family dinner. So then those start to inform your calendar and our calendars, our most sacred thing in terms of really being the predictor of a lot of our well-being.

And so in this month, we really work with Dave in a process that he's developed to help you really understand, you know, how are you really spending your time and is that really benefiting you in the way that you think it is? And it really is by looking at different aspects of, you know, having these having these, you know, clear goals, having these clear kind of, you know, kind of vision and mission statements in your life that really can be your North Star and guide you so that you can make better decisions that that are not just reactive decisions on what the day brings you, but are ultimately connected to a vision and having this clarity around what that vision is.

Yeah, it's interesting. The clarity piece is tough, though. Like to bring it back to the Hofman example. Yeah. If your behavior is being motivated or triggered by subconscious impulses that you're not consciously aware of, then your instincts and your intuition about what you should and should not be doing are tainted. Right? Like it becomes a bigger puzzle to, you know, the thing to unpack, to really get to the bottom of that and to get to a place where you have enough clarity, where you can trust those instincts, or that you can say with assurance that these are truly my values and this is what's driving me and this is where I want to head.

Otherwise, maybe, you know, that thing that you think you want to do isn't really the thing that you want to do.

Yeah, it's interesting. This is not part of Hofman or made for, but it's something that I would say is one of the realizations, biggest realizations I've had about myself and I think just humans in general. And that is even without the hyphen. Process, even without great coaches, just the act of slowing down has a incredible effect of cutting through what is subconscious first, what is really in your in your kind of your best interest or your highest truth.

And so part of a program like made for is really getting people to slow down enough to really think about things that they don't typically think about in some ways.

And so, yes, in a perfect situation, you can go deep into your inner child and your and your and your subconscious and unconscious behaviors through a process like Hofman or something else.

But even without that, just the act of doing a exercise that causes you to slow down and really think about what's important to you. Just the slowing down aspect can have great, great benefits. And I've found that my mantra right now is just to slow down and everything I do, because when I slow down, when I'm with my kids, I really see the incredible beauty and mystery of a five year old and a three year old. And when I slow down, you know, when I'm at a dinner party with friends, I really get to feel and experience what someone's going through, positive or negatively.

And it's just so easy to our brains are so good at it, thinking they know what the next thing is, that we can move so quickly through life and through decisions and and whatnot. And so I think having clarity is one of the real keys is just to do whatever practice it is, but to slow down long enough to really think about it.

One of the things that I think seems to be a huge priority for you or a strong value is surrounding yourself with high vibration people. Right. Like if you if you canvas your life and I did a deep dive, like you always make a point to make sure that you're, you know, dropping in on interesting communities. You know, I know you're part of the summit community, right? Like just, you know, where can I find really interesting people who will push me and broaden my worldview and expand my aperture so I can remove those blind spots or solicit the support or be a support system to other people.

So I think it would be interesting to talk a little bit about the importance of of community and finding the right community that supports you and that you can support.

Well, and I think it's also one of the things that seeking out different communities that are different than you, you know, and really trying to I mean, that's you brought up some summit. I think one of the things that I like about summit or a TED conference or TED videos or whatnot is like there's people that have totally different backgrounds, total different educational experiences, total different motivations in life that I can that I can be inspired by and learn from.

And so, you know, I think that's one of the hardest things about this. This time in our history of covid is it's been really hard to foster that. And most of it has been through, you know, Zoome and being very intentional about trying to connect with people and keep community. But but for me.

Going back to realizing that life's joy and satisfaction does not come from external accomplishments. Where I landed is I need to develop the tools and habits to regulate what's going internally, and so that led to made for. But also what I learned is and I already had experiences, but I think I even ratcheted even higher on the level importance is it's all about the relationships that you have. And, you know, I think people who are most fulfilled on their deathbed or those who really invested time and really not a lot, you don't have to have lots of friends, but really deep relationships.

And so, you know, one of the connections that led Pat and I together and continues to benefit both of us deeply is we have a group of guys that have been getting together now for 14 years, once a year, sometimes twice a year from from our different parts of our lives. But we all feel kind of share in the same values. And we also love to do some of the same activities, mainly surfing. And and this group of guys are all doing different things, all live in different parts of the country, all, you know, some variations of ages.

You know, some kids have already gone to college and are long gone and some are having babies next month, you know, or in four months because Pat's having another baby.

And and so for me, that has been one of the most beneficial things in my life, to have a group of of an especially as a as a man, because I think it's even less regular for men versus women in this case to have a community or a group of people that you can kind of bring anything to and that will always kind of speak their truth to you with anything that's going on in your life. And and so while I have been very fortunate to be part of amazing communities like some in series or in TED community or these kind of more public facing communities, I think the thing that I benefit the most from in my life has been intimate friendships.

And this one group of guys that I'm so close with, that's interesting.

Yeah, it has been it has been hard in this time right now to stay connected to those relationships. And, you know, I miss it. You know, I'm a you know, I'm a much more introverted person than you, but I've noticed, like, how much I'm thirsty and hungry for being just with other people. Yeah.

Like, this is like my this is like my social outlet.

I don't I mean, no. And I heard that veganism first. I was so excited because I've done so many Zumba calls with friends with made for members. I mean, like and it's great. I mean, I'm that's if there's anything I have really taken away from this in terms of is that if you if you bring the highest level of intention to a video call, you can really connect. Yeah.

Like I mean, you can you can see not all the physiological things you get from being in person aren't happening, but it's a lot I think it's a lot more effective than we thought before. covid like I kind of dismiss video calls, like I'll just call you on the phone. But now, like, if I have a friend, I haven't seen him in a while. And, like, we're FaceTime me because looking in your eyes and seeing you in real time, it does make a difference.

Yeah.

When you look out at the landscape right now, you know, I think this relates to what you're doing with made for. There's a lot of acrimony, there's a lot of division, there's a lot of, you know, heated debate.

At least at the moment, people are suffering.

There are lots of people who are feeling overlooked, disenfranchised, and this gets translated into a level of vitriol that I don't remember in my lifetime. So how do you think about, you know, our current cultural moment and how that relates to your relationship with self-improvement and, you know, mental, emotional and spiritual well-being?

You know, one of the things that I. Really hoped was going to come out of the covid experience, and I'm not as satisfied with what I've seen is what I hoped, but I think there's still directionally where we have to go as a human society, as is is it there's so much more that is in common with us that's really than what divides us.

Like, if you really just if you just did a piece of paper and you said a man in any of these issues or any of these situations like we are.

All as vulnerable, as much more vulnerable than we realized when we see something like covid and it affects the person in the high rise in Manhattan as much as someone in the township in South Africa and.

I think there's been a lot of great rhetoric over the years and musicians and and great writing about we really are all one, but I really think the movement that really has to happen is for us to really spend more time looking at the similarities and the beauty of this similarities. And I definitely feel like that is been been connected to my mental health journey and realizing I'm not so special after all. Like, this is not this is not I'm not the only person that's experienced this.

There are actually millions of people that are feeling this way or having trouble in this regard and. My desire now is to is to help them, and because that's just kind of what I like to do, but I think where we are right now, the anything that can help people see the similarities and the connections over the differences and the divisions is something that we have to move towards.

And I don't have the answer prescription, but that's just like in my gut, it just like when I look around and I slow down, really when I slow down, I really look at the specifics of what is happening.

I'm like, we're just we're losing the narrative because we're so focused on the negative or the division of the differences when there's so many positives and similarities there. And and I wish I had a better answer to how we get there, but I feel like that's where we have to go.

It's certainly the only way forward. But how to get there is is really a tricky problem to solve.

I mean, you would think that when covid was visited upon us as a collective, that that would be a unifying event. And that's what I thought. And what we saw was exactly the opposite. And that's dispiriting. You know, it's a bummer that something that we could have rallied behind and come together around has really created an even deeper divide. And it's easy to lose hope about the future as we see that that gap continue to expand.

And I think it's being exacerbated by these digital tools that have been weaponized to pit each other against each other. It's like I don't have in my daily life. I'm not having strife and conflict like I see on social media.

So I know in my heart that we do have, you know, this great shared, you know, unifying, you know, threads and themes and things that we care about with our fellow human beings. But that's not what we see when we look at our screens every day.

And the impact of that, I think, is not to be overstated at this point.

And figuring out how to rectify that is, well, no small problem is the word weaponized. And I think that is a very fair description of how these how how this how these apps and sites and targeting and all the stuff that I don't understand exactly how they do it, but I know the effects of what's happening. And it has pitted people against each other in ways that I don't think they ever would have been and without these these tools. And so I think one of the things that's important is for people to try to develop some real.

You know, just awareness around how the thing that seemingly innocent are affecting us in such a powerful way. Yeah, and to be more aware and mindful of just how powerful they are and to the to the neuroplasticity point, the extent to which they really are manipulating our emotional state. And and I think that requires appreciating just how easily manipulated we are. Like, we don't like to believe that we are, but we clearly are. And we're seeing that getting played out right now.

Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about this. I don't know what you would call it. It's not really a blog like this.

Next step saying that you post the published recently, because I think there's a lot of people watching and listening who who, you know, aspire to make their imprint in the world and want to do something interesting that has that has meaning. But they're much further earlier along the path than you. And you kind of created this multiple I don't know what what you would call it, a series.

We were trying to lampposts in my post. Yeah. It's like it's not enough content to be called a digital book. And we realize that, you know, we wanted I wanted to share just basically the lessons that I learned over the last ten years of Toms and in the last two years of building made for with entrepreneurs and people who want to make a difference in the world. And I was trying to think of a medium that I really enjoy. And I live I do love to write.

And I wrote a book in 2010 and that was a great experience. But I didn't want to go through the whole process of writing a book again because it took two years of my life and I just didn't have that energy right then. And I also feel that, you know, everyone is consuming everything digitally. So. So, yeah. So it's kind of like a it's like a it's like a mini book or digital series of lessons that has, you know, pictures and videos and anecdotes from my life experiences or Thom's and then most recently made four.

And it was really fun. Like I think that like in one of the things that I try to characterize most of my work projects around now is, is it fun? And it was fun to kind of go back over memory lane and to really kind of sit with, OK, how did I actually start like doing that? And, you know, why was that so effective at times? And how could someone who's starting a business out of their garage today or wants to create a new new nonprofit, like how can they benefit from the lessons that I learned?

And so I wrote this series of lessons that call Next Steps. And it was really about looking over the past 15 years to kind of in some ways for myself to think about, like, OK, what do I want to bring into the future? And it's been really fun because it's been I I published it about a week or two ago and and I've gotten so many great interactions and conversations with people online because of it. Yeah.

So it's sort of, you know, basically guideposts. Yeah. Go with your go with your gut. Yeah.

This is how you trust your intuition. Why giving is good.

Like they're basically principle based. Yeah. Totally based on principles through a lot of funny stories that happened in the early days of Thom's and and most recently being an entrepreneur again with made for.

What's your relationship with Thom's now.

So it's such a I describe it this way is I feel like Thom's is.

My child is in college and I say that because, you know, whenever I call and have a great conversation with the CEO at Thom's or someone at Thom's, like, there always seem to be really happy to hear from me. And we have a great conversation. But I don't show up in the dorm room and I'm not just show it up as a proud dad and, you know, your laundry cleaned, your laundry picked up and done.

Exactly. So I'm there. I always am happy when they give me a call and I'm more than happy to give, you know, my perspective on something that they're making decision on. But I'm definitely not showing up in the dorm room. And then also, it's kind of like in college, they have parents weekend, right. And so once at one time, your parents come out and they get to experience everything. That's kind of the same thing.

Like, I put a dog and pony show. I have lakes come in. Yeah. And so they're ready.

Let's see what's what's happening. But, you know, it's Thom's like many businesses and in you know, in retail and the consumer space have been hit hard by covid. Yeah. You know, there's some things have been real blessing's. I mean, the online business has continued to grow dramatically. But but I think there's a you know, it's a long road ahead as we see all the retail to try to figure out what the future looks like. How many retail outlets are there now?

I mean, you know, in terms of the I mean, I think at one point, you know, in terms of number of outlets that we sold, it was like 8000 or 10000. You know, we never really got deep into our own retail. I think we had 15 stores when I stopped being involved. But mainly it's through your wholesale partners who have their own challenges, you know, you know, like a Nordstrom's or whatnot. And and then, you know, we always had a strong online business because the business was really started in my garage and selling online.

But that has even become more important because so many people are shopping at home now.

So to date, how many shoes have been donated? So we're almost that. I mean, we're so close. I mean, it's like ninety eight or ninety nine million. Right. So we're really close to that hundred million mark. And I think this will probably bring you back to the celebration. Right. That's crazy. Yeah.

It's and also then you got into prescription eyewear. There's all these other kind of giving.

Yeah.

Arms to Thom's these days that have broadened that which it's just been really I mean, I think as an entrepreneur, those are my greatest memories of my, you know, Toms, you know, journey is not just in the shoes that we gave, but then being like, oh, we can, you know, help people get cataract surgeries, you know, and in fifteen minutes take someone who's blind and within 48 hours giving their sight back through a surgery that we can pay for by selling a pair of sunglasses on.

Abbot Kinney, you know, so I think. The thing I'm most proud of within the walls of Tom's, but then even with Tom's influence on other businesses, is Benge that how so many entrepreneurs, businesses see that you can be a profitable business but also have a really meaningful impact on the world?

Yeah, I mean, that's the real legacy of this whole thing. Like, not only did you pioneer this like one for one model, it really reconfigured the capitalistic landscape to establish and demonstrate that you can create a very profitable company at scale and still make the giving component of it very, very real and meaningful. Not just mean not you know, it's so heavily integrated that they're not separate at all. And that that really the ripple effect of that.

I mean, you just see it everywhere you look now.

Well, I think what's happened is, is this society is in consumers have changed their expectations of businesses. So before and it's you know, it's not just Tom's. There's been a lot of amazing companies that have kind of been birthed around the same time or shortly thereafter that have really helped change where the customer expects from a company. And so ultimately a company is going to behave in the way that gets more customers. Yeah, so and that's just the economic law there.

And so what used to be OK, and that was companies, you know, having a CSR department and writing a check to a non-profit that was really meaningless, you know, in terms of the scale of their business was, you know, inconsequential, but looked good in a photograph in their annual report to. Now, customers want to really know how is this being sourced? You know, what are your labor practices? What are you doing with your profits?

What percentage of my purchase is actually going to do something besides just go to the bottom line like the customers become much more demanding? Yeah. And I think that's good for society. The expectation of transparency and and the expectation that there is something more meaningful than just the balance sheet, the P&L statement of this company. But does is there a Warby Parker without a Thom's like you set in? I mean, you weren't the first to do this, but you were the first to do it.

It's such a massive scale. Right. And that's made a huge impact.

And I look at I look at that impact in the same way that I look at what Scott Harrison did in the inverse situation of creating a giving model that that was like an aspirational brand, like bringing the best of what, you know, a capitalist culture could could offer the non-profit sector and merging those worlds and what he's been able to create and the the legacy of that on just the giving ecosystem at large.

Oh, yeah. I mean, it's changed the way that the charities operate, the way they communicate, the way they market in such a profound way. And it's been such a joy. I've been part of Charity Water since day one. Scott's one of my great great. The greatest is it's super cool.

But when you look now, there's also like the kind of dark underbelly of all of this is that is the greenwashing that you see also where there's a lot of lip service to this that isn't meaningful or substantial in any way. And it's very easy for a company to say we give away one percent or we do this and they're really doing it from, you know, a marketing. It's a positioning and marketing decision and not really, you know, part of the ethos of or the mission of the company.

Yeah, that's the thing. And I speak at universities or lecture at different things. I always say is like, you know, I think the customer demands transparency and authenticity and you're better off to have no giving program and just be we sell this, we make money. You have a great product. If you like our product, buy it versus trying to sprinkle on some type of feel good message, because I think people just see through that and I think it backfires.

And I think that's been one of the harder parts about having this legacy is I have seen so many things that I just cringed at, especially more with bigger businesses that have tried to, you know, add this on because someone in marketing read and write a case study about TOMS and business school. And so, you know, but what I always say is, as long as the collective direction is to a higher consciousness and how we operate our businesses, then I feel that what we started in motion, you know, 14 years ago now is going to continue to have positive effects like it has to be directionally going that way.

And and I think that really goes back to like, how conscious are we being consumers and as entrepreneurs or people who work at companies?

Well, there's a strain of economic economics oriented people who cast aspersions on the conscious capitalism model like this bullshit.

It's lip service. But I don't believe that to be true.

I think you know what you've created in. There's other examples out there establish not only its viability, but it's almost de rigueur if you want to be competitive in today's world. I think so.

I mean, John Mackey, founder of Foods, you know, he's been on the show.

I did his conference, met all the I've met a lot of these people that are doing and I think he and through his books and you just came out with a new one, you know, prove that this is good business. And I think that's what's so important is and I think that's why we've seen a shift in why more and more companies have have adopted this way of thinking is, you know, there are a lot of stakeholders that you need to pay attention to in order to, you know, maximize your profits.

And it's not just the investor or the financier. It's the employees. It's you who helps make these products. Like everyone has to be healthy for the business to be healthy.

Right. Knowing everything that you know now and all these experiences that you've had, what is the advice that you would give to the young upstart Blake, who's now hustling billboards in Nashville or starting his laundry business? Wow. I mean, you've done pretty good.

Was there anything you'd change or where did you see yourself going astray, maybe on the external validation piece?

Well, yeah, this is where it's interesting. It's going to all come back to the inner journey that I've been on that we've spoken about throughout the show here. And that is. Through a plant medicine journey I had through some work at Hofman, I have a consistent theme that has that has been revealed to me and if I could have and if I could have understood this at an earlier age, I think. I just would I would have I would have struggled less internally, and that is.

I'm good enough, you know, I'm fine, I don't I don't need to be any more perfect, I, I everything that I've done and that I do is my best effort and my best effort is is enough. And I think a lot of people have this inner critic and it can be a great driver for success and an accomplishment. But it also, you know, comes with a lot of collateral damage. And I think I've carried around a lot of stress and a lot of weight internally.

And I've enjoyed things probably far less than I could have if I just would have known that no matter what I do, it's exactly what I'm destined to do. And it's good enough.

Isn't there that fear, though, that if you felt like you were good enough when you were young, that you never would have done the things that you did?

I don't know. I mean, that's definitely a fair assessment of that. And I definitely there were some times and through this inner work that I've done where I'm like, well, if I hadn't have been so competitive and I haven't been, then I wouldn't have had this drive. But it all comes, you know, it all comes with a price. And I wouldn't change the way my life is unfolded for one minute, nor can I. But I do feel that there is a peace.

And a calmness that I have today that I wish I would have had. Earlier in my life, that's a good place to end it. So much respect for for everything that you've built and the service to the world.

But I think more than that, just respect and appreciation for the person that you are. Like you carry yourself with a great deal of presence and equanimity. And it's a tribute to all the work that you've done. Like I can feel it sitting across from you like you're you're here, you're who you are, you feel like integrated. You're authentically yourself. And that's a reflection of all of these things that you that you've done and a tribute to to that work.

And I think ultimately it's only going to benefit everything that you put your energy into. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it. Man has been great.

Made for get made for dotcom is the website recorrect. Get made for it and you're easy to find on the Internet. Just at Blake Mycoskie.

If people want to find the kind of mini book series thing. Is that, that's on your website.

Yeah it's on Blake Mycoskie Dotcom. Cool. Yeah. Right on that go. All right. Thanks dude. Let's do this again sometime. OK, right now I want to interview and don't feel so good, right? I told you, he is a unique and beautiful human that Blake Mycoskie, if you dug Blake and what he's all about, I suggest that you check out the show now.

It's on the episode page at Ritual dot com where you will find links and resources to everything we discussed today. Give him a follow on the social's app, Blake Mycoskie on Instagram and Twitter and check out the made for a program at Get Made for Dotcom. If you find yourself intrigued, use the code rich roll out, get made for dotcom to get twenty percent off the made for program. It's a special gift from Blake and no, I am not an affiliate.

Just sharing his very generous offer.

Reminder that my new book, Voicing Change is available exclusively through my website and we are shipping globally inspiration and timeless wisdom from the podcast, all wrapped in a beautiful coffee table style book.

Really proud of this.

I pick up your copy today, available only at Rich Roll Dotcom Slash v.C. We've got another roll on AMA coming up later this week, so please give me a call at four two four, two, three, five, four, six, two six and leave a message with your question.

We might just answer it on air. If you'd like to support the work we do here on the show, subscribe rate and comment on it on Apple podcast, Spotify and YouTube. Make sure you hit that subscribe button, share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media and you can support us on Patriota ritual dot com slash donate. Today's episode was produced and engineered by Jason Camilo. The video version was shot and edited by Blake Curtis.

Graphic elements were created by Jessica Miranda. Portraits courtesy of Ashley Rogers and Sponsor Relationships are managed by David Corn. Theme music as always, by my step sons, Tyler and Trapper and my nephew Harry Mathis. Thanks. I love you guys.

See you back here Thursday with another roll on. Until then, peace plants service that that.