I didn't have the luxury being black, gay immigrant parents to not try to reach out to those who are different from me. I didn't have that luxury. The only way I've succeeded and find a healthy boundary is by saying, I got to meet you where you're at because that person was never going to meet me. And so it's always been my burden, but always has been my greatest triumph of being able to say, I know I can meet you where you're at.

And I think, you know, like as a society, we need to get rid of culture and switch it with council culture. I think that we have gotten to a place where it's easy to jump on the bandwagon council someone. But then what we forget is that once you've cancelled them, they get further pushed into a group of people who believe and feel the same way they feel. It's very rare where someone has been canceled actually changes privately or publicly.

All they do is they revert back to a group that believes what they believe. And I think that's part of the problem, giving people opportunities to grow and learn instead of constantly, as I think so important. But to do that, you have to have a group of people who understand the importance of empathetic listening, because when you can let someone communicate, when we can communicate together, when you communicate to yourself, honestly, world opened up. Hey, friends, this is Gromo from Netflix Queer Eye.

And I'm on the Ritual podcast, and I'm very excited about this. The Rich Roll podcast. Welcome to the podcast, Chromeo from Queer Eye is indeed here. We made it happen. It is glorious and coming up in a few. But before we dive in, yet another reminder that we are running a steep, limited New Year's discount on the planet. Our meal planner now through January 31st. It's twenty dollars off an annual membership when you visit meals rich WorldCom and use promo code power 20 at checkout with thousands of plant based recipes at your fingertips, integrated with grocery lists and delivery and tons of awesome features.

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OK, for the few unfamiliar, Chromeo is the culture expert on the hit Netflix show Queer Eye. I fell head over heels for this man bingeing all five seasons of Queer Eye with my family during the early months of this pandemic. And what I take away from it is this unbelievable ability that this human being has to help such a wide diversity of people confront and work through their pain and ultimately transform their lives. And I think it's a gift that he has a profound one at that.

A couple of months ago, during an episode of On, I was waxing poetic about Queer Eye, Shower and Kurama with Love. And amazingly, he happened to catch the show he deemed me, which blew my mind.

And so here we are, got to love the universe. So let's do it. This is me and the lovely and gorgeous Chromeo Brown. Well, welcome to my home, I'm so delighted to have you here. It's been a little bit in the making to get you here, but yeah, so excited, everybody. I mean, I've been doing this for eight years. I've never seen my family more excited.

You know, the whole turn out here to welcome you.

And you asked you asked a minute ago, like, I thought we were going to do that in the black box room where we have been recording historically. We've always done the podcast here. We have another room on the other side. But when covid hit, we moved it out to a neutral space just for safety reasons.

But with you, it's like I can't record a podcast with Chromeo, like he has to come to the house.

That's the whole thing. I appreciate you do. Your house is gorgeous. I appreciate that. And we and we find out we're neighbors. We're neat. Yeah, I can't believe that. That's the mindblower. And we've got the doors open and I've never sat so far away from a podcast just before. So we've taken we've undertaken safety protocols. Make sure we're safe.

I know you've been tested a lot, as have I, so we can kind of breathe, relax and enjoy each other's company.

Man, you reached out to me, which blew my mind because I had mentioned in a podcast with my buddy Adam that our whole family had him had been enjoying Queer Eye. And I was late to the party. Like my relationship with Queer, I was the original cast in series. Yeah. So the new one launched in twenty eighteen, right. Yep. It's been five seasons.

The joke is whenever there's a Republican in office, Queer Eye needs to come back. So ratings go up. Yeah exactly.

And I had never watched, you know, your version, the new iteration of the show until the beginning of the pandemic. And we just latched on to it as a family and it's like the one show that we can all like. If you met my whole family, lots of ages, you know, going on here, and we would just look forward to it every night. We went through all five seasons and it was just it was just absolutely delightful.

And I was like, I can't believe I didn't know about this show. And I was raving about it on the podcast. And I couldn't believe it when you reached out to me, because, of course, I'd want to talk to you. You're my guy.

Well, the love is mutual. Obviously, me reaching out to you is because I was like super fan. Yeah. I just love the way you have conversations, the way you engage your guests. And, you know, I always even though I'm on this show, I don't have this Hollywood mentality yet and I hope to never get that Hollywood mentality. So I'm always like, hey, you really cool. Do you think I'm cool too? I feel like I feel like a seventh grader all the time, you know, I do too.

It's funny. Yeah. And I'll never forget Jiah, our youngest, who you met, who's a huge fan of you in the show. I was like giant chromeo me you to come on the show. And she just looked at me confused.

She's like, what could he possibly want to talk to you about? You know, Gyoo. Your dad is cool. Your dad is really cool. Yeah.

You're doing me a solid and the eyes of my daughter and being here also is the one that helped direct me. That was Mathes. I was the one with the Redish. Yes.

Yeah, she's thirteen anyway. Happy to be here today with you came. And you know, I want to kind of unpack the show and your personal story, but. In thinking about how to approach this with you, you know, I was thinking about like what makes Queerer so magical and I think what it is, in my mind, at least, I'm interested in what you think. To me, it's like this antidote to our very kind of acrimonious, divided culture at the moment, because it's so infused with hope and love and compassion and understanding.

It's devoid of all the judgment that seems to be the touchstone of all other forms of media that are popular or that we're consuming right now. Yeah, and I can only presume that that was very intentional from the get go.

Yeah, it was. We I have told this once before that I one of the reasons I believe that the five of us got the job is because when they got down to the final casting where they brought like 60 to 70 guys to like do chemistry tests to see which five. So people of different categories and they just start putting you together. One of the things where within the first hour myself, Bobby and 10 connected, then it was Anthony within an hour and a half and then Jonathan within two hours was because they would take you in this room and they would ask you questions and people will come out and say, what did they ask you?

And we were the only five that were willing to tell what was being asked in the room. Other people were, you know, were like, I'm not telling you, you're my competition, but we just didn't feel like we were thinking to ourselves. Well, I was personally and now talking to the guys and I still get these little goosebumps. We were thinking, well, if the show is to to make people better, the best people should get it.

But you should be wanting to make people better. And if you can't do it in a casting, then how are you authentically going to do it out here? Because, you know, like every round someone would get cut and you never know who's going to be. So if I'm getting cut and I could have maybe helped you a little bit along your way, then, you know, why not? And the casting director said it was so apparent because they were listening in on everything that we would come out and we would be like, yeah, here's what happened.

Oh, here's some advice for you. Here's how you could do it. And I think that was part of on top of the chemistry, on top of all of us being great at what we do, I think it was them seeing like these people actually living this idea of not dividing, not judging. Right. Not hurting others. Like they really just want to help because they're doing it in the casting. The universe is abundant. Yeah. As opposed to a zero sum game situation lately.

And the casting was like a year and a half for this show. Right. Some crazy long period of time.

Like for some mine was my my casting was only two weeks. So I had actually Jonathan had been in for a year and a half. I think Tanne been in for a year and a half. I came in two weeks before they were doing that chemistry test. I found about found out about the show through watching Watch What Happens live with Andy Cohen. Carson Kressley, who's in the cast, was on and he was saying they're rebooting the show. And I called my agent and my agent got on this, told me, no, you already have a job because I was filming a show for MTV, said, we're not going to put you up for it.

And I got that phone. I was like, I'm not accepting this now. This is not a no that I'm OK with. And I called him back and kept saying, we need to keep working, we need to figure this out and not in a, you know, egotistical or mean way. It was just like sometimes you have to follow and trust your instincts. Yeah. And I think that the universe will or people in your circles will sometimes make you doubt what you know to be true.

And I knew that whether I got the show or not, I needed to be exposed to this opportunity and to these people. And I kept saying, you got to you got to for a week. And finally, my agent found someone who he knew and casting from a long time ago. And they were like, well, give him ten minutes on. This is before zoom, almost zoom Skype. Yeah. And we're like, we can Skype him and see if he's even worthy to come to the chemistry test.

Wow.

And because it had already been going on for so long, Artemy went on late into the game. Yeah. And they said after the ten minutes they were like, we'll bring you in. Wow. And when I asked why was it. And they were like, well you were the first person who talked about the culture category from a mental health standpoint. Everyone else was artists, you know, musicians, you know, playwrights. You were the first one that said mental health need to be the component of the show that was missing.

Right. And they were like we were interested and curious of what you want to do with it. And obviously it worked. Yeah, it worked that term. Culture, though, is a legacy of the original show. Yeah. I think I said in the other podcast, I was like, I'm confused, like, because it's not like you're what you do is so much broader culture just seems a misnomer to characterize your function and you know, on the program.

Yeah, I agree with you. And it was a struggle for me, season one, because people especially season one, people. Like, we don't know what he does, because there was the shows being established, so it was like he's having long conversations, what is his thing? Especially when you have people who do physical attributes, like you see a home, you see someone's hair, you see what's on their plate. You see they're fashion, you know, having a long conversation.

People were like, I don't get it, you know? And when you don't have a title that clearly helps people understand that he's working on the mental and emotional state, it was hard, but I had to release my ego and say, you know, if people don't get what I'm doing, as long as the person we're helping, that's all that matters. And people finally figured it out. They're like, oh, yeah, he's the guy.

And I think it's because of the crying. Like, every time I get on screen, the person would start crying. They're like, OK, we can we we understand what's going on here. Yeah. And so. Well, I'm crying. My family's crying. We're all crying. You know, I was like, oh my God, you know, this is going to be such an emotional journey week in, week out.

Like you just crush it like there's no, like, missteps.

Was there ever an episode where you spent a week with somebody and you're like, this isn't working?

Yeah, twice. I always joke to people, if you go back and watch the episodes, if Jonathan doesn't twirl up the room, you can tell because he's probably the one that's going to always share through his body language what we're all feeling collectively. If he didn't watch a lot of room, it most likely means that we were just ready to go and then like two days in and just pull up the stakes and like, we're done with this.

Yeah, there's two people for sure that I know. And and it pisses me off if I can be very honest with you, like when I think back about those people. So I keep up with all the individuals we've ever helped, especially with my role of. Yeah, that was a big question that I had. Yeah, I think it's important. You can't I don't think it's healthy to open people up and not give them an opportunity to still do to speak to you, to talk about whatever you talk to them about, give them that sort of aftercare.

And the show does provide aftercare as well. So it's not all on me. That's good to know. Yeah. So we we make sure that they're good. But there are some individuals that the two that I'm thinking of that made me so mad because we have so many people who apply and who would love this opportunity. And when you get someone who slipped through the cracks somehow and then comes here and doesn't take full advantage of five experts in their field, take advantage of a crew of 70 people, take advantage of all this this exposure that you could get afterwards.

And they're just like, I don't you know, it just it just upsets me. Like, you know, a few things really, really upset me. But that's when the one.

Yeah, well, they're they're I mean, they're not ready. They're I mean, that's a fear response, isn't it?

Oh, completely a fair response. But you know what the show is.

So who doesn't want me to come in and, like, completely redo the house by snapping his finger? That's the thing. And what we realize and they are casting department is great. They've started get savvy on that. Is it just because they want the free house makeover? Right. And I think that's the key where these two individuals were like, yeah, come into my house and they played the game with the other categories. But, you know, now we're that's like the last thing, you know, that they find out that they might get.

Yeah, well, all of you guys could be experts in your respective fields, but the chemistry that you guys have together is clearly the gold. I mean, it's unbelievable the way that you guys gel together. Yeah. So taking it back to that casting experience was the casting director like, OK, you go in and you do your audition and then you come out and then they're watching, like how everybody's interacting with each other because that's key. Like, if you don't have that, the show is not going to work.

Yeah, they're what they were watching both inside the room and outside the room to see. And like I said, it took us an hour and a half on the first day for the five of us to come together. And the ironic part is the five of us didn't know if we were competing against each other, if we were in the same category now. So we were hanging and didn't know because it wasn't until the second day that they gave everyone stickers that said, like your culture, your food.

So I didn't know what category anyone could be in and they didn't know what category I was in. And I think that helped that we organically found each other. We or we awesomely we're not in the same category. We were also diverse. And it was like sort of like I think things just work out the way that they need to because, you know, and then once we got into the room, they would bring other people in and you would you know, eventually it just was the five guys in there.

And then they had this other another five five squad who was, I guess, their other choice, which were all phenomenal people. But I still remember on that last night, I was like they were like, well, we'll tell which one of you groups are going to make it. I looked at the other group and I was like, You are great, but I'm sorry you're not getting this. I was like, sorry, you're not getting us at all.

Like, Yeah, or guys. And, you know, I still keep up with. Oh, good.

Now it's got to be a little disorienting with the success of the show, though. I mean, you guys just. Emmy nomination, you know, laughs It's like a cultural phenomenon. Yeah, it's how that on TV for a while doing all kinds of different stuff. But nothing at this scale. No, no, no.

Yeah. When I after college, I did the real world and then stopped doing anything because I, you know, went on my journey of sobriety and take care of my kids and then came back out here to establish a real career in television. So for years I was doing like digital shows for the Oprah Winfrey Network. I worked at Huff Post Live and things of that nature. And so this was my real first job ever, even though those were all jobs.

And it is overwhelming and it's humbling because, again, I promise you, if you meet any of us, none of us have gotten that celebrity bug. You know, like you meet people in this town, you're like you're like, come on now. Like you're still a human being. I know how you put on your pants. I know how you brush your teeth. Like, let's treat each other as if we're all the same just because we have a little bit more money.

If you have a little bit more success, we have to remember those things are fleeting and the five of us remember that. And so luckily, we have each other to ground each other, which is nice.

That's beautiful. I mean, that's that's literally just walking the talk of the show. I know what I mean. We try.

Yeah, well, you've done the work, you know. I mean, your background is is pretty extraordinary and the obstacles that you've had to face and overcome to get to this place. So let's like take it back there for a minute. Sure. Growing up in the south. Yeah. Yeah. Growing up in the south, immigrant parents in Florida, Texas and Florida, my parents are Jamaican and Cuban. So that, you know, being a little gay black boy to immigrant parents growing up in Texas and Florida had its moments.

Let's say the you know, the least, you know, you could feel the you could feel and you could see the racism, the homophobia. And I was just the direct target because one of the things that I always say, my father would always he have this map like old school map like that MapQuest or, you know, ways. And he would go through it and he would basically redline the school districts and see what apartment complex we could live in so that we could go to the school that was best funded.

And unfortunately, the way our system is worked out, mostly the best funded schools are in predominately white neighborhoods. And so I was always that one apartment complex that was right on the outskirts of these one million, two million, three million dollar homes. And then I walk to the school and I'm one of three African-Americans or one of five children of color, one of two kids who had immigrant parents. I was the only one in high school that had, you know, decided to let people into their life about my sexuality.

So it cause this extreme conflict consistently. It was like my existence was always in conflict with where I was. And as a child, you don't understand why your your life is conflict and why you are the reason for conflict. And as I got older, I started to realize that this was the biggest blessing, all these different identities and managing them, because now I use those conflicts as tools to help other people navigate their own. I use those conflicts to be more empathetic, to, like, understand where people are coming from versus it could have made the opposite in writing like victim.

Yeah, f the world. Well, your dad's intention feels like it came from a good place, like he's trying to find the best course.

It's great that, you know, it's like a byproduct of that is everything that you have to go through. Zafir Yeah. And you know, as dads, we I appreciate it. So I don't talk about then the bad thing. The one thing I do talk about and the reason I bring that story out specifically is because that's still the problem. Today we have an underfunded education system and it only gets worse as you get into low income neighborhoods. And I think sometimes we have to really take a look and say what is wrong with as a society when kids are not our priority?

That's the biggest thing. Like when we saw with the gun violence because, you know, that was my high school, Marjory Stoneman Douglas, right. Where, you know, the the high school students were. Yeah, Parkland. I always think if those kids dying can't get us to get some comprehensive gun legislation, if kids not being able to eat in school and passing out can't get us to start feeding kids if like what, who are we as a society if we won't even take care of our children?

And that that's one of the thing that blows my mind. And I'm sure as you as a well, as a parent, it's like there's no way one of your kid's friends would come in here and say, I'm hungry or I don't have a book to read. And you'd be like, sorry, go home. You would feed them and give them a book. And, you know, it just blows my mind.

Yeah, it was it was your high school, the same high schools. I mean, part was at a different high school.

No, the same high that we saw in Douglas. Yeah. That was my high school. You went back and visited. Yeah. Yeah. This happened. Yeah I did. And I started working with the school because a lot of the kids were going through trauma and so they called on alumni. But the thing for me about that incident, which a lot of people don't know, is that one of the teachers, he was protecting, the students and he got killed, was actually my high school.

We went to high school together. We graduated the same time. And so when I watched it on the news, not only was I like feeling this anxiety of being a father with my kids, going to school, also watching my my high school be shot up and the kids and, you know, seeing their fear and hitting home there. But then a day later to see someone I actually graduated from. And I remember when he sent the Facebook message to say he was going back there to teach, you know, now dead like it made me feel like I was 16 again because I'm, like, too close to home, you know.

Wow. And with conflicting emotions probably about that time in your life and that experience.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So when did you know the sexual identity aspect of of growing up, you know, come to be a thing? I mean, you can't you sort of came to terms with that around 16 or so, 15, 15.

Yeah, it came across very quickly. I mean, you know, Zack Morris on Saved by the Bell helped out a lot. You know, I kind of figured it out very quickly, like, oh, I like boys. And so I think the journey to accepting love myself was a difficult one, because my father was Jamaican, is Jamaican and the music and the culture previously they've gotten a lot better. Subscribe to a lot of homophobic ways. And so there was a song called Boomi by by an artist called Buju Bonton.

And the song went like this boom, bye bye in a batebi, which means homosexual's head. You're not supposed to promote these nasty men. You have to kill them dead. And that song would be playing at family functions consistently and had a great beat and people are dancing to it in the whole song is about killing any gay men on site that are. And this was like No. One on the radio and no. Like 10 on the radio here in the States.

So I want you to imagine a popular song that's promoting Killing Gay Men and Imes five, seven, eight, nine. And these songs are playing. And so it made me feel fearful for my own life. It made me feel, you know, unsure about the love that my parents really have. Because if you could sing that song, unknowing that I was gay, then do you really love me once I say this to you, are you going to try to kill me?

You know, those are the type of things you play in your head. Horrible. Yeah. Yeah. You know, but I think about that, you know, we still haven't gotten to a place with some rap pop, you know, some rock lyrics. You know, they still promote this and people don't realize that, you know, you saying no homo has a connotation to someone who could be who identifies by the LGBTQ community and who's having self-esteem issues.

And every time you say no homo, how does that affect their self-esteem? Because you're saying that if I do something, no homo means it's not. Yeah, it's bad. So, like, I'm not bad. That's bad. I'm not bad. And so I think it's just about being clear about what are you subscribing to? And like, really watching your language because language has power of how it affects people's moods, self esteem, growth, everything.

Yeah. Wow, that's heavy.

And you're are you where are you out with your dad these days.

We have a we have we have like you're good. I'm good. Like, you know, you stay there. I try. The problem is that even my father now I've we had many years that we didn't talk at all. But then like as I got older, I did try to reach out and he just could not he just still to this day, cannot reconcile his religion with his relationship with his son. And I think that's a problem. When you can't reconcile your religion with your relationships, then there's an issue there, because for me, the religion is teaching you to have healthy relationships through love.

But somehow the Bible is then teaching a different version of what could be coming out of other people's mouths. There was supposed to be. And so he just never been able to reconcile it. And so I had to come to a place and say, you know what, since you can't reconcile that decision, I have to make a decision for myself. I have to love me more than I love you. I have to trust me more than I trust you.

I have to be there for myself more than you could ever be there for me. And then that was sort of the the first step in taking away the pressure of feeling like I have to have this relationship. My father, just because he has the title father. Right.

Right. That's the thing.

I mean, I feel like. Most people have some version of issues, yet their parents, and it's the rare case that somebody can really process it and heal from it and get to the other side of it where they're not carrying around this burdensome, you know, resentment and anger and, you know, constantly looking in the rearview mirror, like analyzing what that experience was like. Like that takes a lot of work and most people just compartmentalize it and move on.

Well, one of the things that I used to tell myself and I try to help, especially when I worked in social services, I would tell kids as sort of a something to springboard them to a happier, healthier life, is that whatever situation happened didn't happen to you. It happened for you. And I think that language right there, it didn't happen to me. It happened for me is such a beautiful way of helping you to understand that. Yes, you had an experience that was traumatic.

But what could you learn from this experience? How can you grow? How can you be healthy or how can you be the best version of yourself? How can you start to heal? Because when you say it happened to me, you live in this place of letting the trauma overtake you. It's always like this is this happened to me. I wasn't good enough. I wasn't strong enough to handle this. What did I do to make this allow this to happen?

Why wasn't I loved enough? You start to do all these whys instead of saying this happened for me so that I could understand that I could be stronger, that I could love myself. And so when I think about the relationship that I have, my father and uncles who couldn't reconcile their religion with their relationship with me because of my sexuality, I said, you know what, that happened for me so that I could be here today. Stronger, loving myself, more versed.

It happened to me.

Yeah. It's it's easier to be on the other side of it, though, and look at it that way. Like like intellectually. Yeah, of course. But when you're in it, you're, when you're mired in it, it's very hard to like see your way through and to really grab onto that, oh, 100 percent.

That's why I think that they should teach meditation. I think one of the things that I think that they should have not taken out of school was quiet time. I think, you know, they got it right in kindergarten and pre-K when you have quiet time, because what would happen is that it would allow all the kids to settle their their nerves, to take a moment, to reflect, to recharge. And I think we get into this as a culture, a society.

It's like you have to go, go, go, go, go. And you don't look at social media, everything, and people don't slow down. And I think that if we had an opportunity for people to take a step back, especially in dramatic moments through and organize, you know, through school, where they're like, let's stop so you can process what's going on, I think it would allow people to then get to that intellectual place at a younger age versus being older because no one allowed me to stop.

So I felt like I had to continue to run. I felt like I continue. I had to fight because of the fact that I was like, if I stop, they win. When actually if I would have stopped sooner, I would have healed quicker. I would have won because I would had more understanding that this is your shit. This is not my shit, you know what I mean? So that's yeah. I talk about education a lot in kids.

Yeah.

Well, I mean there's so there's so many things, you know, with both parents. I mean there's some things that I wish we could change about the educational system.

And right now in the midst of this pandemic, when everyone's at home and on Zoome, I mean, you know, prior to this, the incidence of of mental health issues among teens was extraordinary. Now it's spiking like crazy depression, anxiety, stress, all the like. And there's no. Kind of institutional programming around well-being in the educational system, whether it's private or public, like my great desire, this, you know, I'll be, you know, projecting my own experience.

But, you know, I want my children, my daughters to emerge from their educations, feeling, you know, a sense of empowerment and self-esteem and agency over their lives and a feeling of capability that they can manage the world like all of these life skills that are so much more important than memorization or, you know, whatever being tested this week. Agreed. We just completely turn a blind eye to this fundamental aspect of, you know, how to live successfully and be happy and productive and fulfilled.

Yeah, and I think that's part of the reason why, you know, are are, you know, as American culture, like we are not number one anymore. You know what I mean? Because we are missing such a key fundamental piece here of like people need education. They do need the memorization, they need to do all those things. But that's 25 percent of what has made me successful in my life. You know, like the skills I learned in school, obviously.

Yes, I have them, but it's through the life experiences and it's through, like you just said, having agency over myself and over my emotions and being able to communicate and being able to take care of my mental health and being able to do all these things that schools don't talk about the life skills. You know, it's like the fulfillment you get from balancing a checkbook or knowing your credit's good. Like, you know, people just need it, like little things.

I think that we've missed the boat on that. And I think that we need to go back to a place where we start to evaluate how we really grooming the our generations to to succeed. Right. And right now, I think we're grooming them not in the best way like they are. Luckily, some of our kids have us at home where we're like, no, we want to be empowered. We want you to use your voice. We want you to understand how the world really works.

But there's other kids who feel like if I don't get an A here, then I'm not worthy. And that's not I don't think that's healthy. Yeah, I don't think so either. Yeah. We'll be right back. But first, I'm proud to support and be supported by just egg, a better egg for you and the planet made entirely from plants, just egg is protein packed, but with less saturated fat and zero cholesterol, which is kind of a big deal considering that just two chicken eggs exceeds your recommended daily cholesterol intake by one hundred and twenty four percent.

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All right, let's get back into it. As you're talking, I'm thinking about, you know, the many times throughout the show, there's always the the situation where you go on a walk or you're driving in a car with, you know, this week's person. And the heart to heart is have it's come in, you know, it's come and you have this unbelievable facility for not just being able to kind of extract out the most important aspects of what's dysfunctional about this person and how to help them see their way forward.

But an extraordinary ability to communicate it in a very clear and digestible way, like it's very concise and it's done with compassion and without judgment. So the person is able to really kind of take it in. And I would imagine for a lot of people who, you know, the millions of people that are tuning into this show, like most of them, maybe have never had any experience with therapy or mental health, like you're their first introduction to some of these ideas that have been certainly life changing in your own life.

And, yeah, and for all the people that that you touch. Yeah, it is.

And it's it's pretty amazing to think that I am their first introduction and I take that responsibility very seriously. And also the rest of the guys, we all take that responsibility because even though that's my main focus, you know, one of the things I do love about the rest of the cast, especially Jonathan, he and I connect deep on this, is that we both are very much about like mental health and like the awareness. And we do understand that there's a lot of people who are in countries because we're, you know, Netflix.

So we're global now. Like, you know, I travel now. I was last year, my family, and we were blessed enough to go to Bali for two years. And we're in this jungle and this kid and his mom went up and they're like, Queer Eye. And I'm like, this is you can't like you just can't you intervene. And they're just asking for a hug. And I'm thinking like, I'm in the middle of Bali, in the jungle.

And this this kid knows me because of this show. And what he knows about me is that you're supposed to check in with yourself, to love yourself. You're supposed to. And I was like that just blew my mind. But so I take the responsibility, you know, very it's very important to me. I love it because I hopefully we're giving people and hopefully I'm giving people ways of really checking in with themselves that are not so much over their head.

I think a lot of times these concept can go over people's heads. So I always try to like, break it down, not because I think people need things to be dumbed down to them, but sometimes in our busy lives, you just need something that you're like, oh, I can grab the one thing that I can do. Yeah, I can do this, you know, like not something that's so, so big that you're like, I can't it's going to consume me.

Just you just do this one thing. Here you go. Start with this.

Yeah, well, as they say in the secret halls of recovery, you can't transmit something you haven't got. Right. And that goes back to what you were saying earlier about, you know, is this happening to you or is it happening for you? Like when you can imbue that idea that it's happening for you and avail yourself of the opportunity to, you know, really, like, bear hug it and use it as a modality to heal. Yeah.

As opposed to become a victim. You can emerge stronger from that. And, you know, you've only shared a few of the many things that you've had to do. I mean, you had like you found out you had a son when you were in your early 20s.

And I told you the most your age. You know, it is funny. We were in the car literally three days ago and he was like just sitting there randomly. He was like, when you're 65, I'll be 50. And I was like, like, yeah. And he was like, no one's going to think you're my dad. And I was like, I mean, you know, it happens now. People think we're brothers, you know what I mean?

But, yeah, my the one girl that I had a she was my best friend. We lost our agenda each other. It's you know, it was also the catalyst for me to start letting people into my life in regards to my sexuality. I was it was like, OK, I know this is not for me. And so it was one of those things where I was like, yeah, I guess this is it. And then she moved away, you know, I'm forty.

And so people who are younger might not get this. But if you didn't have someone's address or home phone where I was it, that was it. And so when she moved, it was done. And then years later, there's that stack of papers on my doorstep for child. You didn't know that she got pregnant. She moved away. She moved away. Yeah, it was when she got pregnant. And if I do the math back, I guess it was like May.

And then we were out of school by June. So we went on summer break and then she moved on summer break. So that was. Yeah, that was it. So your son was ten when you were informed, right?

Yeah, ten years old. And it was like, what in the world? And at this point I had been going through I mean, I was it was like party central, you know, I just got the real world. I'm done with college, you know, the real world. Back then it was like, if you want reality television, I don't know if it's same now, but back then it was like you would do these club tours and you would go to tours and they would pay you twenty thousand dollars to party when I would a party for free.

And so it's like I'm twenty three partying, doing all these things. Giving you drugs or just, you know, taking care of you and I just got really unhealthy, really depressed, and it was because I didn't really focus on the trauma from my past. You know, I wasn't looking at what was making me feel like this behavior was OK. Why was it OK for me to destroy myself? Why was it OK? Why was I so OK with hurting me?

And so as my son, I found the paperwork. It was at the same time when I was finally starting to heal and saying, you know what, enough is enough. I don't want to hurt me anymore. You know, the world does enough of hurting me. I don't want to hurt me anymore. And and so I started to heal, get help for my addictions. And then now I was like this kid. And it was the perfect thing.

I tell people all the time he saved my life because I don't know what would have happened if I would have found out at 16 that I was a father. I don't know if I'd be sitting here right now. I don't know. And I don't like to speculate, but I do know that at that moment I needed something ground, you know, life changing to step in and like, really make me commit to who I wanted to be and to stop hurting myself.

Yeah, the universe delivered, delivered right on my door. Timing was perfect. Yeah. All my doorstep. And so I moved back to Texas to get custody of him. It was, you know, crazy moment. I then got custody of his little brother, same mother, different fathers, because he was having some troubles with the state and because of my, you know, work in social services, I was like, I can take him for temporary and temporary, turned into, you know, he's twenty now, right?

He was eight at the time. And so but it helped me to understand, like, oh, you can be better not only for yourself, but for them.

So you're like twenty six, twenty seven. And you're like, oh my seven. I got a son and I'm adopting this other kid and I'm twenty six single dad of two. Yeah. Leaving L.A. and my fancy TV. Real world life. Yeah.

Moving back to Texas. It wasn't that fancy, wasn't that fantasy for most people. A grand to go party. That's pretty. But then this is a funny party. I would get twenty nine to go party and then maybe three days later I'd be like how do, how's my phone bill getting turned off. And I was realizing because you're twenty three and you don't know how to manage twenty thousand dollars. So it was like hey everybody get in the you know we're all, I'm buying a trip, we're all going Oh you want those shoes.

Sure. Get those shoes, we're all doing it. And then you're like oh because I didn't know you know.

So, so did you just like get struck sober or did you go to like twelve step or treatment or how did you do that?

I did not. I did it on my own, which I regret. I wish that I would have had someone to guide me. But my family, especially in African-American cultures and immigrant cultures, therapy, addiction recovery is not something that they're educated on in a lot of times. And I'm not trying to generalize, but from my experience, the community that I was in of African-American people or immigrants just did not know about therapy, did not know about rehab, didn't have the money or the resources.

And so it's sort of like this thing of like pray on it, you know, like or just like that.

But you study this stuff in college, right? Like you were. Oh, yeah. Like a therapist and a social worker. Like you must have had some. Let me tell you something. This is the thing that's funny. Chris and I, there's a guy here named Chris that I'm dating and he might or might not be sitting right behind me.

Yeah, but we were just having this conversation because it's like sometimes I'm great at helping every other person. But you you don't understand how fast that training goes out of my mind. It is when it comes to me, it's like it just it just goes and anybody who tells you like, oh, no, I've been trained and I know how to just do this is why doctors don't perform on themselves or why lawyers don't represent themselves in court, because you sometimes don't advocate for yourself in the way you need to.

And when, yes, I have the knowledge and I always look back and I'm like, if somebody would have been in front of me, I would've known exactly what to say to that. Right. But when it's you, I was like, I don't know what to do here. Like, Oh, I'm screwed. And so it the knowledge helps to some degree. Once I got to a place where I was kind of better, but for the most part it didn't help at all, you know, because I was like I was in such a destructive path, you know what I mean?

Like, I just could not get out of my own way. I was I was so complacent with hurting me. And I don't mean physically hurting me, but I just realized that every choice I made was always going to lead me to something that put me in a situation that I was uncomfortable with. It put me in relationships that I shouldn't have been in, both friendships and intimate. Every decision I was making was about hurting me, and it was never conscious.

It was like and it wasn't till I got a little bit more sober that I was able to evaluate that, to understand how the drugs and alcohol were triggering that what trauma I was experiencing. You know, it was a lot of that. What why how that I went through.

But at some point, you must have enlisted other people to help guide you through that process. You weren't all doing this in your head, were you?

Kind of. Wow. I wish that I could, you know. I have one sister, her name is Camillia, she and I are the closest of my sisters. She was the only one that was like, come here, but she even had the language. So she was she is a doctor of pharmacy. And so she kind of understood the drugs I was taking. And she would be like she would she would come to me. And these are things that I already know.

What let me let me get like cocaine for sure. Love cocaine like that would be an understatement. I'm not promoting this to anybody watching MDMA, ecstasy, coke, weed. I never did like any heroin, crack or anything like that, you know, but it was a lot of like pills, ecstasy, anything, and then the liquor. And then some nights it'd be all of them because, you know, you would get to the party at 10 or 11 and someone you'd start off with cocaine and then buy one.

Someone gives you a pill and then by you know, you're drinking through that and then you have more coke and then you get more pills. And so she was there to say, hey, this is how your body chemistry is reacting to these drugs, which was also kind of nice for me to hear because it was like, OK, now I'm seeing how it's like playing into my depression, my anxiety. And that that also made me realize, like, I don't have to be depressed, I don't have to be anxious.

I can leave this substance and then do more work and relieve myself of some of these feelings. And so that was nice.

But she was the only one kind of interesting, like level of of self-awareness and maturity for somebody who's kind of doing it internally. Right. Like doing it in a structured modality. Yeah. But I suppose, you know, God's like, dude, you're like way off the reservation.

I'm going to throw these these two kids at you and you need to pay attention. If this doesn't get your attention, I don't know what to do. Well, that's what it was. That's why I say the kids and my love, because I was like, if I can't pay attention to myself, then how am I going to pay attention to them? And I'm like, you? Then just pass on these, you know, these trauma bands and these generational wounds and like and instead of like saying, hey, before you have a kid, you should you actually need to get a license to heal yourself a bit, you know what I mean?

And we're always a work in progress. But I just think it's interesting that as adults, we end up trying to heal ourselves while we're trying to raise somebody else and then they're now adults. And then all the light bulbs clicked because we're not 30s or 40s and we're like, oh, crap, I should have said this to you when you were ten.

I mean, I've done so much work to grow from the person that I was into, the person that I am now. But it is remarkable the extent to which I continue to repeat, you know, these habitual patterns that are reflective of things that my parents did. I mean, I think so many of us, we parent and opposition to the way that we're parented, like you have some wound and we're like, I'm never going to be like that with my kid, but we kind of go too far in the other direction.

Yeah. And I found myself nonetheless, despite adopting that mentality, perpetuating something that I didn't like about the way that I was parented, because it's so hardwired into me so hard.

And the only way that I can become that I'm made aware of it is, for example, if Julie reflects it back to me or I do therapy with a group of guys and I'll share something and they'll be like, you're doing it again.

And I was like, Really? How am I going? I still can't see. Yeah. And so these kids become your gurus, right? Because they reflect back to you, you're wounding and your pain and your patterns and what it is that you need to work on. Yeah, that seems to be a reservoir that you never get to the bottom of.

Yeah. But if you're defensive when they're measuring it back then that's where you start to pass on that trauma and those wounds because then they start to pick it up because once you're defensive they're like, well OK, that is I want to hear this. Mom does want to hear this. And then they start to pick up the same behavior unconsciously. You know, I was talking I read some of the other day, which I thought was just really great that I want to share is how, you know, those of us who were kids and experienced trauma or were teenagers or young adults and experienced addiction or trauma, you have learned how to turn red flags green.

And I thought that was so great. When you're in this space of dealing with your trauma, there's a red flag that pops up when you're dealing with your kids, dealing with life where you know that something is not right here. But you've turned that red flag into a green flag and given yourself permission to go. And I think that if we can start to learn how to stop turning these red flags into green flags and teaching our kids how to stop turning red flags into green flags, etc.

, it helps them to find the courage and the strength to be able to say this behavior is not OK and I'm not going to go along with it. I'm not going to repeat it. I'm not going to do any of the things that I've been taught to do because I can see the red flag. And I think that visual of like someone taking a red flag, you know, like, woohoo, don't go here and being like, let me paint this green.

Right. I'm going to go now. This is say I think it's just such a great visual for us to hold onto, as we're told, you know, as someone. Reflects back to us something that we're doing where we can say, oh, you reflected it back, great, let's all remember this is a red flag. None of us turn this green. None of us you don't do it. You don't do in a relationship. And if you feel like you're about to tell everyone in your circle what red flags, there it is.

You know, instead of like being in a relationship and then being like, oh, I got to find out two years later all the red flags when me a little bit more honest and vulnerable about it. Right. Right. Yeah.

I mean, the the, you know, early days of any relationship, you know, is basically like a grand play.

And, you know, we're all the person we think that they we they want to be with and takes time before the cracks, you know.

So could you imagine if we got to a space where we could just give those red flags at the beginning? Right. And then how you could start to heal yourself and heal your relationships so much quicker? I just think that's just a beautiful I mean, it's a little lofty and like what happened. But it's it's it's great that I'm trying to I want to learn how to practice that more.

Yeah, it's hard. I'm such a pathological people pleaser and it's like I mean, even today, it's like Christmas coming over.

Like, I want like I want Kuramoto like me. Yeah. I mean, like I am very invested in that. So you're just everything to me and I'm like, well what is that about. Like you know.

So for me it's still this struggle of trying to detach from that aspect of my personality, which I accept. But I'm always, you know, trying to overcome on some level. Yeah. Which is a close cousin to, you know, external validation and the role that that plays.

It's like doing a podcast. Lots of people are going to listen to it. I like the fact that, you know what I mean, like what aspect of that is fine and what aspect of that becomes unhealthy and moves you further apart from, you know, the truth that you're trying to get at in these conversations?

Yeah, I think for me, any time I'm in those spaces, I got to think to myself.

Am I doing this because I know that I'm enough or am I doing this because I don't believe I'm enough? And so that validation is more important to me. And I think just practicing that that awareness that I am enough, I am OK sort of is the fine line for me of like remembering that it's yes, I might still have something that people pleasing in me, but the more you can realize that you're enough so you don't have to please other people, you're enough.

So even if the validation comes or doesn't come, it doesn't matter matter because you're enough. And I think that's the practice. That's the daily reminder for yourself. That's what you have to be to, you know, to to to hug on to and, you know, hook into. Because when you start to believe that, it seems very like woohoo! But it's at the truth of the core of like, I don't have to please you because I'm a.

. I don't have, you know, like it's funny that you would say like you're thinking like, am I going to like you when I'm the one who hit you up and told you that I loved you? You I mean, and but it's something that we all play with in our minds, you know, and that that narrative got put in your mind from someone in your childhood. You know, I don't want to go too deep with you, but someone in your past has said to you and made you feel at some point like you weren't enough.

And so then you started to feel like if I make these acts, I do these things, then I'll be worthy and I'm good enough, I'm here.

But then when you achieve those things, of course it's not enough and you have to chase that like a dragon for the rest of your life.

I mean, yeah, my upbringing was all not that, you know, I had a it's it's it's like this weird thing is I feel guilty talking about this. This is something I explored with Gabor, mate. He's like your parents did the best they could.

It's not about them being good or bad. But I think that there was a conditional aspect to the love in that we love you more when you're when you're excelling. Right. Like it was a very education and achievement oriented household. And I got validation out of playing that game and succeeding at that game. And that gets cemented into my hardwiring that today at 54, I'm still playing out that pattern. Yeah, a very dysfunctional way. Yeah. I mean, what you just said there about the validation in that unhealthy way is, I think, something that most people experience in their homes.

And it goes back to that conversation we had earlier about schools and sort of like what the life schools were not receiving because you come home, you get a everyone's cheering, they put it on the the the fridge. But when you say I found a passion that makes me happy that might not tell your parents you can make money. They don't react the same way. You know, I also think about this. When I was raising my kids, I had this philosophy in my home that if you told me the truth, you would never get in trouble.

And I think we do a disservice to children in the way that we're grooming them of when you tell your kids to be honest. But when they're honest, they get punished. Yeah, like what kind of backwards way of training and teaching someone. It's similar to like you do good. So now you get what you you're you're you're going to you feel loved. It's like a backwards way that we really have to look at, like the way that we're we're what we're teaching unconsciously and consciously to each other and so forth in my house, if my kids got in trouble and they told me the truth, they didn't get punished.

They got rewarded with a hug, with love, with more support, with, you know, quality time, because and now we have a relationship. My kids don't lie to me anymore because now they don't fear coming in. Tell me the truth. And I broke this sort of cycle in my household. And I'm not saying there's other cycles that are still getting perpetuated, but in my household at least, where my kids don't feel like they need to lie to get valid, that that that validation externally because they know their truth is good enough.

And, you know, it's one of those things where, again, if someone told you that, hey, make it f, it doesn't mean that you're a bad person. I'm still going to love you. I'm still going to celebrate you as you and being what would have that have done for you, you know, like as a child, that would have been amazing for you.

Yeah, but bridging that gap, like overcoming that patterning intellectually versus emotionally is a journey, really. You can say, look, if you tell me the truth, I'm not going to get mad at you.

And then you're like, you're mad, but you're trying not to. I you know, it's the wrong thing that's very different from, you know, really coming with a genuine, authentic, you know, sense of compassion into that dynamic.

Oh, completely. Well, that's where, like I said before, the rewarding understanding what the reward is going to be, understanding what your intention. So the word reward for me is also synonymous with intention. So my intention here is through my actions to show you that I love you, to give you this reward of like, yes, I feel something inside, but externally, you're going to only be embraced by love. You're only going to be embraced by positivity.

And it does take time. You know, it does take effort. And this is where training does help me, because as a parent, it helped me to realize, like, this is not going to be healthy if I do something opposite, but. It does take time, but everyone can get there. You know, we forget that we all it takes for you to change your self-esteem or the way that you're living is to practice the same thing daily.

You know, that's all you have to do. If you get up in the morning time, you look in the mirror and the first thing you do is you downplay yourself and say, oh, look at how I look here. Look at my look at my hair. It's going down. You're practicing every day knocking your self-esteem down. If you practice in the morning time coming in and saying to your kids, hey, are you ready for school?

You know, or whatever that first statement is, you're practicing like what is most important and what is most valuable to you versus coming in the room. Like, I used to do this to my kids as well. I would come in the room in the morning time and before I would wake them up and say we got to get to work, I would give them a kiss and just be like, Did you sleep well? And I would sit them for like 10, 15 minutes to understand that my value is not how fast you're going to get ready for school.

Not saying that's not a value, but that's not the top of my priority list. And I think that we can all learn how to practice. What's our intention, what's our values more versus making these knee jerk reaction to I'm busy. What happens when you walk in the door? Do you go straight to the TV? Do you go straight to your phone or do you take a moment to connect? And if you practice day by day doing that and things get better.

Yeah.

What is the what's what's the current blind spot with you. Like what's the thing.

I tripped you up and with me is the struggle. Yeah.

Oh I mean right now it's I guess a lot of like because I'm out of one relationship that I was in for ten years and it's for a long time. Right. Yeah. We were engaged for a year and a half. And so it's a lot of like understanding, like the things that I didn't even know were lurking beneath the surface that I guess I didn't heal from were like were bothering me. And like how that can just come out in a second now and like being like, oh, I need to really go back through and like really evaluate what was happening in this relationship and really being truthful with myself about, like things and how they made me feel.

And so I think that's the thing that's trip me up right now. Yeah. Of like, you know, you think that you have a handle on a relationship, but you realize that every relationship is different and every relationship needs to be evaluated differently and equally. And I think that's such an important thing because I got the relationship. I'm fine. Everything's good. We ended on a healthy and a healthy place. And then I was like, oh, no, I'm not fine.

I'm not there's there is things that were lurking underneath that weren't the big traumatic things, but they were still there and like finding that balance.

And even under the best circumstances, when you've been with somebody for a very long time and then suddenly you're not. Yeah. If you think you're not, you know, dealing with some kind of, you know, latent emotional issue, you're in complete denial, right?

Completely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I say this is not regards to me, but I just want to give your listeners a thing. It's OK to tell people, don't rush my healing. I think sometimes we feel as if like when we're grieving and we're going through something, whether it's like the actual physical death of someone, actually the end of a relationship or even just grieving the financial security you thought you were going to have whatever you're grieving, and especially in this covid world, I think sometimes, you know, we put a timeline on other people's grief and other people's way of healing.

And it's OK to tell people, don't put a timeline on it like I don't like or appreciate. Like when I hear friends saying, oh, my gosh, you're still not over that guy. You know, it's like just because you've gotten over it doesn't mean you can't you can rush my healing. A better response is what are ways that I can support you? How can I get you the help you can get you need so that you can feel like you can heal, so that you can go through this grieving process.

But I think as a culture, we rush people's grieving too much. And I just want to tell people that it's OK to tell someone you don't rush my sense of healing. Yeah, that's beautiful. I think that's super important. I think it's equally applicable to, you know, the people in your lives that you create expectations around where they should be with where you're at, like is your dad, you know, and how he feels about how you're living your life, where, gosh, you know, we all hear the story of the newly sober you know, you've got thirty days and he's angry that no one is embracing him back into their life, has torched everyone for years.

You know, that's a different kind of healing.

And you got to be patient with the people that you love and that are in your circle, but allow them to have their own their own journey with whatever it is that, yeah, you're going to let them have their journey.

I think, you know, that's some of the things like when I tell people there's two things I want to say to that, because the first is you got to let other people have that healing, that journey. And I think it's that's why I say it's so important for people to know that and to understand it's a dual thing. It's both sides. Because I always tell people when I let people into my life regarding my sexuality, I don't use the term coming out.

I think it does give the power the right. Yeah. Explain that a little bit.

Well, when you say coming out, it gives the power to the other person to accept or deny you. And the process that I actually did was let people in. And when you have, you let someone in you. The power to deny or love yourself, accept or deny yourself, and so it has nothing to do with you, it's about I'm letting you in. And if you don't want to be here with me, then that's fine, because I still love me.

So if you've done the work on yourself, you know, I always think about, as, you know, your body, a temple. So if you're letting someone into your sexuality, into some part of your life, if you open that front door and you say, come on in and they say, I don't want to, if you've done the work on your home, you close that door and you walk in your own home and you feel comfortable and you feel loved.

And so I think it gives the person back the power and the understanding to that. It's not about them accepting denying you, it's about you loving yourself more. And also this whole antiquated idea of like coming out the closet. I don't know where the hell this closet is. And if there is a closet, I want to find it to be a pot of gold. And if all the B.S. I've been through, but I want to burn down this closet and nobody else has to come out of it, you know, like it's all about letting people in.

But when I was letting people in, I would say I understand that in my mind, I have been dealing with and understanding and loving my sexuality and who I am for five years before I let anyone know. So when I let certain people know, I realized they had to grieve an entire identity that they have constructed in their minds. And I'm not saying that it's my fault or that, you know, they have any blame or I have any blame.

But you have to understand that if this is what I've known about you and one day you say, nope, erase that this is something different. Yes. You want them to get to a point where they can accept you and love you for who you are, but they have to have their time to grieve. And so I think you have to give people their time to heal. So like when I worked in social services, I work with kids.

I would say understand that it took you five years in your mind and talking to other little friends to get to where you are, it might take your mom or your sister or your cousin five years to. We all would love the beautiful stories that we see on TV where people just are like, I accept you and I love you right here on the spot.

But most of the time when that happens is because that person had some type of inclination and they were already doing the healing on their own, or they had a friend in their past that they were healing on their own and healing their their biases and everything else. But you have to take that time to let other people heal as well. And so it's OK for a parent to say, I need a little time to grieve and to heal myself. It doesn't mean I don't love you.

I love you. I need time to process and heal. But secondly, on what you were saying, we were talking about the sobriety and like the guy who was like 30 day chip, I think there's something else that we do. And this is something I say all the time, which is comparison is the thief of joy. When you compare yourself in your experiences to other people, you're still your own joy. And I think as a culture, we do that way.

Too often we look at people on Instagram and instead of thinking about what we have in our own lives and how beautiful the small and big things that we have, we end up comparing our bodies. Our minds are our inner circles, you know, you know, little, you know, trinkets that you have to what other people have. And you have to stop doing that. If you have thirty days, don't compare yourself to what other people are.

You know, what they're not doing. They're not accepting you again. They're on their healing journey of healing. But just don't compare yourself to anything else. Just know it will happen in your own time. Don't steal your own joy focusing on something else.

You can also steal that joy by comparing yourself to an idealized version of yourself. Oh, my gosh.

Version of yourself. So you don't you don't actually even need that other person. You need to start looking at your. Oh, it's all in my head. Oh my gosh. That's such a great point because I have so many. I have a girlfriend who right now is on a physical health journey where her body has changed after children. And she constantly it's like, oh, my old body and I want that body. And I'm like as just a human biology, none of our bodies will ever be the same as they were from day one.

And so you have to be OK and accept that your body where it is now is enough. And if you want to make if you want to work out to be healthier, but you have to stop comparing yourself to that old body, like you said, because you're now stealing the joy of being like there's something beautiful about whatever body you're in now. There's something great about it and and find what that is. Again, going back to practicing in the mirror.

What is one thing on this new body that you can love about yourself versus comparing yourself to an old body? Stop stealing your own joy by comparing yourself to others or your old version of yourself. I think it's so critical. I'm glad you out of that piece.

And in addition to that, more broadly, like outside of the context of, you know, sharing some aspect of who you are and being attached to how people are going to receive that the growth is in understanding that how people feel about you on some fundamental level really isn't your business at all. And even even if it was, you're unable to control completely. And the extent to which human beings try to do that, I think is really the engine of so much unhappiness.

It's like we're all trying to. Control of our environments, you know, position ourselves to be received in a certain way, and it's all this delusional attempt to manipulate the world so that it, you know, appears as we would like it to be. Yeah. And the freedom only comes in the surrender to the idea that that is beyond our ability to control and to make peace with that, to accept the fact that that's them. I mean, I'm only in charge of myself, how I feel about myself, my actions, my reactions, my thoughts.

Yeah.

How did you get to that place where you got that freedom? I'm still working out any I mean, you know, I got I got sober in 98 and spent a long time in a treatment center and, you know, very much steeped in the recovery community here in L.A. And I do therapy and I have my wife who is, you know, been instrumental in helping guide me through a lot of you know, she's pretty amazing.

We met briefly identifying my shortcomings. And, you know, just being a I don't mean that in a in a negative way. I mean that in a way of of being able to see what I can't see. Yeah. And and being able to communicate, hey, you might want to look at this like you're doing this thing, like maybe think about that or is there a better way to do that completely.

But, you know, I'm the furthest from perfect and it's a strange situation like in hosting this podcast. And people say, like, how do you do this or how do you do that?

I'm like, dude, like I'm trying to. Why do you think I'm doing this? To figure this out, you know, figure this out together. I don't stand on any kind of pedestal in terms of, you know, knowing answers that other people don't like. I grapple with this stuff mightly every single day.

Yeah. I got to tell you, I'm the same way. I'm the same way. But, you know, like like I shared with you earlier, when it comes to myself, sometimes I you know, of course, I'm able to especially identify, you know, someone's trauma or triggers and help them to kind of navigate through that. But, you know, I'm still learning constantly myself. You know, we're all human beings. And I think that freedom of letting go is something that we all strive to.

And I feel like I get closer on some days and other days. I'm like, damn, I missed the boat today. I just really missed it. But it's also giving myself, you know, forgiving myself. I'm big on that. Like, I once a day will say to myself, I forgive you. I literally would do it in the morning. Sometimes I'll do it in the night. I just look at myself in the mirror and I'd be like, I forgive you.

And it's my way of saying, like, you know, you're human. You made that mistake today. But what what are you going to do tomorrow? How are you to make a better choice tomorrow? And I think sometimes people are scared to make the better choice tomorrow because they haven't forgiven themselves for what they did yesterday. And, you know, when you can let go of your ego and say, I forgive myself, now let me go and see if I can, you know, we build rebuild the bridge that I, you know, bought with someone else by, you know, acknowledging through not being defensive what I've done.

You know, I tried to start conversations really, you know, quickly with like, listen, I know what I did. I mean, let me be very clear. Like, we don't have to spend two hours of life pretending I know what I did and I'm sorry. And I think forgiving myself first of the actions and then saying, will you forgive me? And allowing someone to be on their journey of saying yes or no, I might need some time.

It's OK. And I think that's how I get to that freedom as well.

Yeah. By doing your own inventory and then leading with honesty, integrity and vulnerability, like when you initiate those challenging conversations from a perspective of let me just own up front, like my side of this, you know, equation that went sideways. You're in a much better situation in terms of being able to navigate to a healthy place and also take down the fence, telling anybody who listen, they should try it.

Like if you're in a situation with somebody we all know at our core what role we played, for the most part in the demise of relationships, intimate or personal friendships. You know you know what you did? You kind of you know, you might not want to acknowledge you might not want to say it out loud. You might know. But, you know, I'm telling you, next time you're in in a space with that person, just acknowledge it.

Just say it like just go for it. I'm telling you, it's going to create a healthier relationship. Like, you can't even imagine just being like it's just it's just surrendering. It's like I get it. I did it. I'm sorry, I, I'm not going to I'm not going defend it right now. I did it, you know, and we can have a conversation later about why I might have done it, but I'm not going to defend it.

I sorry.

That's the mistake I think a lot of people make like they'll do that. But then there's always a but, you know, or they'll do the police, but they'll get rid of it. Not just. Yeah, like let it land without that is always much better.

Well, I think what you like your your, your true gift is that you carry this vibration and you do it, you do it in a masculine body and you enter into these, you know, scenarios with these various individuals on the TV show. You help them, you know, see their way through their own kind of mental and emotional. Hurdles. But in a broader sense, you're giving men permission to grapple with and confront their emotions and a culture in which, you know, we've come a long way.

But let's face it, like there's still a long way to go in terms of getting the average dude to think about things like vulnerability and inventory and, you know, loving oneself and even talking about their fears. Yeah, we you know, I don't know where in our culture we we went wrong. I don't know where. I don't know when. But like, this idea that men aren't vulnerable, that they don't hurt, that they don't have, you know.

Well, actually, I do have an idea of where this shit started. Like for me, I believe, you know, I believe there is a God, but I think it's narrow minded to believe that God is a man. When we see everything on this earth, it's created by women, the creator. I'm like, now he's, you know, a guy all of a sudden did this. And so and I revere women because the people who are my usually my spiritual guides, my mentors have always been women.

So I think that women are the most powerful beings on this basis, Earth. And I think that when we sort of put women into a category because we were intimidated or afraid of their awesome power, is when men start to feel this sort of like need to say, well, OK, I'm stronger now because I I'm I'm limiting you and I'm going to have this power and say that I look like I'm strong.

But because of your wholeness, you cry. I don't cry. I've diminished that, you know, and I think we did it to ourselves. And and then I think through time it got perpetuated through movies, stereotypes and, you know, and then even some women started to ascribe to it, like, my man is not strong if he shows emotion or something of that nature. But I think what's happening now is we're seeing that shift because of the shift of our culture with mental health, this period of like we can't keep on going.

Ignoring this, we saw what happened to our grandparents and our great grandparents. And we're seeing what happens when generations completely ignore their mental health and only focus on their physical health. And I think men are starting to wake up to like I have to be better for myself. I have to be better for the women in my life. That had to be better for my kids. I have to be better. And and they want to be better. And that's the thing that I always tell people where they're like, what's the magic touch?

You know, anybody can talk about your trauma. The reason that these men have these emotional moments with me is because I'm I'm giving them permission to know that their masculinity is not invalidated by emotion. Right. And I think it's so important for men just to know that, like, whatever you've constructed of masculinity in your mind is not going to be broken just because you say to someone, I'm scared because you say to someone like I'm confused. It actually makes you stronger, sexier.

It makes you all these things that you actually thinking or not like. I've never ran into a woman who was like, I'm dating this guy. And he was honest with me and it turned me off. And that's not a thing, guys, but you know what I mean. Or like, oh, my gosh, you know, we had a conversation and he let me in. You know, now I'm I'm turned off. That's that's literally the exact opposite that men should learn.

And I think we can start telling them that it even just gives them more permission just to be open and honest about who they are and what they're feeling.

Yeah, I think the the real emotional heart of the show is borne out of those moments where, you know, you and your your colleagues are are showing, you know, this this person a level of compassion that they've never experienced in their life before. And when you sit down and give them permission to be vulnerable or to ask them questions that nobody has ever asked them before, like, that's where you're like. And you could see the look on their face.

And the way that their body is like this is new to this.

Like no one has ever shown that kind of unconditional love and support for this person in their entire life. Yeah.

You know, and, you know, it's it's for me, it's so special because I remember the day I was probably like and I was probably in ninth grade the minute that I realized that I needed to start giving compassion to myself and to others in that way. And so it's interesting and amazing that now I have a career where I do it publicly and on television. But there's a story I want to share with you really quickly that I used to play football in high school.

And I remember we play football and while we were practicing, the girls would be doing they're running around the track. And I remember I got tackled because I was wide receiver and my leg was busted up. I mean, I was screwed up. And all I remember is my coach screaming at me. Brown, get up, Brown, run it all brown. And I'm sitting here and I'm crying. He's like, Brown, suck it up, go brown, get up.

And I'm like in pain. And then I remember this girl and I'm not going to say her name because I'm still friends with her.

But she was running a hurdle and she tripped on the hurdle and she had the tiniest scratch on her knee and that same coach that was just telling me to run. My then I found a broken leg was like ran to her with everyone else and was like, oh my gosh, what is wrong? What is going on? Are you OK? OK, are you fine? And that was the day I was like f this. If you don't want to give me compassion and love, I got to give it to myself and then I'm going to then try to give to other people.

And literally I quit football and became a peer counselor. I'm not even joking that his reaction set me on a whole new path of like I'm now going to be a peer counselor for other kids here. Also, it got me out of, like, you know, second and fifth period because I was able to, you know, so there was another motivation there. But I was like, if you're going to tell me that I have to endure pain without any love or support, then I'm going to make sure that other people you tell that to can leave you and come to me and, you know, get the love and support you're not giving them.

And I literally started doing that. Then I did it through college. And it's it's it's where I am now, ironically, in my career. But I can pinpoint that moment of him screaming at me, Brown and this girl being on the you know, it's amazing. Wow.

So. It's got to be hard to practice that, like in quote unquote, all your affairs, like especially now where culture just feels so fractured, you know, and I'm thinking to I'm thinking back on that particular episode of you guys with the cop, which.

Yeah.

Was that in that was in the south somewhere. Yeah. We were in Atlanta for that. And yeah. That was, you know, a big one where we watched that.

I think when we watched that episode it was like right in the vortex of George Floyd. So I was like the timing of of, you know, watching that show, which was obviously taped much earlier.

It was so like. Challenging to get on board with the idea that you guys are going to help this guy after you get pulled over and that little stunt. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was it was a it was a difficult moment because we all felt really triggered, especially myself, Stan and Jonathan, who had experienced police brutality because of four, 10, our race or nationality. And for Jonathan, because of the fact that, you know, being non binary people would harass him for being a human being who has a beard but also is in a skirt.

Right. And we understood like real police brutality. We understood that, like, there are police that are not here to protect and serve you. There are there are some that are bad. And, you know, in that moment, it was like, OK, this is hard. But I think one of my greatest gifts I was talking about this with Chris, I mentioned earlier the other day as I was like, I don't mind going to spaces where people see different than they who feel differently than me and trying to make a bridge.

And so I saw that as an opportunity with this cop of being like, hey, this is a moment for us to see each other. And it doesn't mean that it's going to change how you police. It doesn't mean it's going to change how your friends police. But hopefully, if I tell you that my son at 16 didn't want to get his license, something that we all want to do, if I tell you this, maybe I can get to your heart and maybe I can instead of trying to change your mind, I can change your heart.

And then the next kid you see that may look like my son, you'll stop and think, is this gromo son before you make your choice? And it was powerful. You know, even in the episode, you could see physically bawling at the end because he's like our cop car ride. Right. Just meant the most to him because he was met with empathy and saying, like, hey, we're at the end, the day we we want the same things.

You know, we've just had these experiences that put us on a different path. But if you go back to your heart, you go back to your emotions, you can get back on that path of love and you know, all those things.

And so, you know, it's really nice.

I mean, it's it's so powerful. And I look at that as almost like a template or, you know, an instruction manual for how to interface with the world. Right now, we're on the back end of, like this unbelievably divisive election. You know, I don't know in my lifetime, a period in which we were so divided. Yeah. This unbelievable breakdown in our ability to communicate in a healthy way and identify common ground when in truth, we share so much more than that, which divides us.

Right. And I spent a lot of time thinking about, you know, as a public facing person, like, how do I talk about this? How do I interface with people who disagree with me? And I'm very much somebody who doesn't cause controversy. I want to build bridges, but I also feel there are moments where it's important to speak your truth, even though you know you're going to get attacked or whatever is going to happen with that.

And everything is on such a a tight trigger right now. It's like everybody's ready to snap. And I feel like the only way forward for our culture, if we want to have a shot at being, you know, the United States of America is figuring out how to build those individual bridges in our personal lives. How do we communicate, like, OK, Thanksgiving just happened. We're we're coming up on, you know, the broader the bigger holidays.

Like, how do you interact with people who see the world differently from you? How can you find that common ground? And how can you know we, you know, really embrace the things that that we share and transcend all of the divisiveness that's really dragging us down and making us anxious and depressed. And it's really, you know, it's deeply concerning to me when I look at what's happening out there.

Well, the first thing I say to people is that we need to get as a society, we need to get rid of council culture and switch it with council culture. I think that we have gotten to a place where, you know, it's easy to jump on the bandwagon council someone. But then what we forget is that once you've cancelled them, they get further pushed into a group of people who believe and feel the same way they feel. It's very rare, as we've seen in these past couple of years, were counterculture.

They're popular. It's very rare where someone who's been cancelled actually changes either privately or publicly. All they do is they revert back to a group that believes what they believe. And I think that's part of the problem. Instead of cancelling them, we should be giving these people opportunities to sit down and be counted by someone. And I think council culture is the very healthier way of saying your actions were wrong. This is your actions were wrong because this is how it made this group of people feel.

Now, can let's talk about why did you feel it was OK to hurt this group of people? Why did you feel it was OK to hurt this person? What in your own past led you to think that this was OK? What part of your power axis? Makes you think that this is the appropriate way to react, giving people opportunities to grow and learn instead of canceling, because I think so important. But to do that, you have to have a group of people who understand the importance of empathetic listening.

So when I go into situations with people who are different than me, the first thing I think about is of my grandma used to say, my grandma used to say, which is you have two of these, you have one of these two ears, one mouth. So you're supposed to be doing one double time and one, you know, one a little less. And I think about that all the time. And so when I go into something, instead of me jumping into a conversation and I just trying to defend my point or I tell you why you're wrong or whatever, because I now know as an adult that's going to only shut them down.

I go into and I say, hey, let's start the premise with your actions hurt this person, me, someone else. I want to hear why you made that action. And then I don't go into anything. And this is key and now listening. But within the listening, something else that I think people do is they then start to conjure up ways to defend a point of view that they don't even know yet. So you assume the other person going to say something.

So you already have your your your your you know what you're going to say back. It happens in couples all the time. I see it all the time. Every time I see a breakdown in a couple, it's because they're already ready, they're defensive. It's like I know what I'm going to say to you to get get you back to say it back and you have to release that. So if I'm going to listen to you, I'm going to listen to you without having a rebuttal ready.

And I think that's so key. So instead of canceling you, I'm going to counsel you by listening and not having a rebuttal. And I think you have to then also understand, is this person in a space to actually receive this? Because I think sometimes we get blue in the face. We're trying to talk to people who are just not ready. They're just not ready. And also they're not ready because they've been triggered by the last ten people who who try to talk to them, who didn't do it properly, who all told they were wrong.

And so you have to say, well, am I really in a space to want to build trust and build, you know, a bigger connection? Like in my career so far, I've been canceled probably a lot, but I get canceled often because I do believe I'll give you some examples of recent you know, I get I get canceled because people say, why would you talk to this person? Why would you interact with this person? But it goes to what we talked about.

The beginning of this this interview is I didn't have the luxury being black, gay immigrant parents to not try to reach out to those who are different from me. I didn't have that luxury. I never had that luxury. The only way I've succeeded and find a healthy boundary is by saying, I got to I got to meet you where you're at because that person was never going to meet me. And so it's always been my burden, but always has been my greatest triumph of being able to say, I know I can meet you where you're at.

And I think, you know, like I got canceled last year because I called Sean Spicer, Trump's former press secretary, a nice guy, and then try to engage. Right. Because you guys did Dancing with the Stars. Right, to Dance with the Stars together. And he I don't agree with any of his politics, but I was like, you know what? If if there's a way that I can maybe help this man to see how his actions are affecting people I love and affecting my life, maybe he will his heart will change just enough that when he's around some people who would never be around me, he can like it, will start to come out of him unconsciously where he's he's starting to talk like caramel.

He doesn't even realize it because it's like I've hit his heart and people are like, I can't believe he said he was nice. And I was like, I didn't say his politics were nice. I said him as a human being. I could see him as a human. I could see his fears, I could see his pain. I can see the manipulation. I can see everything in him. And I could remove that and say, well, now let me try to help you to be better.

I wouldn't be able to do that if the solution is you just never have anything to do with that person because they don't see the world the way that you do. We're doomed. We're doomed.

And that's where we are as a culture. We are. And that's why I say get rid of council culture, put it with counterculture, be more empathetic, get listening, really be there. And not to, like, have a rebuttal and just really understand if the person is ready. And I think then we'll start to get to a place where more people are open, honest, vulnerable and and and finding common ground. Because I want to end on this.

If the aliens came down tomorrow, not saying I believe in aliens, but if the aliens came down tomorrow, I promise you, none of us are going to be like, you're black, you're white, you're gay, you're straight. We're going to be like, oh, shit, it's us against these aliens who are about to eat us all. And so I call them aliens, you know, like if there are like they're mean. But I'm just saying, like, we have to come back to a place like right now we've made each other the enemy.

And like at the end the day, we're all trying to survive on this big planet where things are alive and can kill us all at any moment. So let's all just come together and realize that, yeah.

Here's the pessimistic note, though. You would think it replace aliens with. Pandemic, like, if a pandemic happened, we would all have to unite and collectively figure out how to solve this problem and we all know what we're seeing right now, which is an exacerbation of this divide in a way that I don't know if any of us could have predicted. But I think your point is well taken.

And even with this pandemic, I'll say this. I think the problem was not just the is that we have politics. I can't politicization cancel or exactly. Cancel. It's not just because they politicized it, you know, with the mask and everything else. I think it's also because, again, when you don't touch someone's emotions, then their mind will never change. And so I I don't want anyone else to die from this pandemic. So let me be very clear.

But I think the fact that the number of deaths weren't affecting so many people's homes that they really a lot of people weren't seeing their grandma and passed. People were getting, you know, recovering really quickly if this pandemic would have really, unfortunately, taken more lives. And I'm not saying that the lives that were taken were undervalued, but I think then we would have seen the common enemy. And it didn't matter how they try to politicize it, it would have been like, no, we're all in this.

And I think that's where we went wrong when we were fighting people with mask. I never tried to have like the mass conversation early on because I was like, I'm going to get you if you've already been told a mask is stupid or your mind is set. But if I can show you how my sister or my cousin or my aunt is sick right now and really get to one on one, not just on a Facebook feed, just one on one, talk to somebody.

That's where it got better. And I spent a lot of time in the early days of pandemic doing zoom calls with people who did not on my podcast, which I can never use any of it, because when my podcast comes back out like it's going to be right on. Yeah, but it was like everything changes, you see differently. Yeah. Can I just talk to you? And through that conversation I would say about eight out of 10 would change their heart.

And I saw it physically on their Instagram where they were all of a sudden be like, damn, I didn't know that this was really affecting someone. So yes, that's the to play on your pessimist's.

Well, to be sure, things like podcasts are super important because you've got to be able to create the space and the bandwidth and allow for the nuance and the back and forth. Like this is not happening on Twitter. Yeah. And if we want a shot at bridging, you know, this divide, we've got to, you know, divorce ourselves a little bit from those platforms and invest a little bit more on the one on one. Aimen invest in the one on now.

Well, round this out in a minute, but I can't let you go without asking one more thing, which is to know you don't need to be on Queer Eye.

OK, I'm on the video right now. You do not need to be you're literally the after photo of what we do out there. I'm going to let you know that right now you're not coming on the show. My goal is achieved. Thank you.

I'm interested in your thoughts on on you know, in your experience of of of working with so many people. What are the common things that tend to trip people up and kind of show up as blind spots like, you know, what's the thing that you when you look around, you see if that guy just knew this one thing like he could.

Transform himself, communication of communication. It's funny as a species who uses language, whether it's through your voice, through sign language, to interact with others, we are such horrible communicators. We don't communicate to ourselves what we're feeling. We don't communicate to others what we're feeling. Our communication is so broken. We get into conversations and we stop ourselves, like we talked about earlier in the conversation, where you just you you you close off your voice, you stopped speaking, you stopped sharing.

And I think that's the thing that I would just want. Most people, every person I come across with, I'm like, well, why didn't you ever tell anybody this was happening? Why don't you ever admit to yourself that this was going on? Why didn't you ever share? And it's like I didn't know how to communicate this. And asking for help is weakness or help is weakness. But again, asking for help is a form of communication.

And so it all kind of for me goes back to communication. And I think if we could really give, you know, not to go back, but if we instead in school talk people who were never going to use, you know, trigonometry ever again in their lives, a class that would teach them how to communicate. You know, I loved English and I loved reading books. It was one of my favorite subjects. But no one in that class taught me how to truly communicate what's going on.

That's not a skill we're really learning. You learn it from the streets, your home, and that's where we get caught up. I see it on camera all the time. I literally like, why didn't you communicate this to anybody? Why didn't you communicate this to yourself? Why didn't you ask for help? Why what was going on? And that fear around communication is the biggest issue that stops us all.

Yeah. And then the release that you see when they finally communicate to it, it's like they suddenly lose 20 pounds completely.

So I would encourage people and your friendships and your relationships as parents. Highlight communication more, encourage your kids, encourage your friend to talk more. Be patient with them as you're talking, which I think is so important, like people don't always not all of us or towards. We can just, you know, share a speech and say something. Sometimes things come out confusing and comes out wrong. You know, this is something I've been dealing with right now with someone who like being patient with them and understanding, like your intentions not to hurt me.

You're just you're just learning how to communicate in new way. And I think it's so important because when you can let someone communicate, when we can communicate together, when you communicate to yourself, honestly, world opened up. So that's a beautiful way to end it, my friend. You're a beautiful man, Carramar. You're an inspiration. So are you, my friend. So glad to be here as a fan of your show. I'm so happy to be here.

Honor is all mine. When it when does the show resume as you guys have a production schedule?

Oh no, they haven't told us. Probably February, because we're you know, our show's all about connection, hugging. The minute that goes up the show, you know, you what are you going to do? There is no show. There is no show. We can't be six feet apart. Know. I mean, so we're we're trying to figure that out now. And so for me, I don't get political, but I'm very thankful that we have a president now who's going to take the pandemic seriously.

I'm also want to highlight the fact, which I think has gotten washed under too much, the fact that we have our first female vice president, who I just am so glad that we now have a woman in that office. And I hope that and I know that she will not be the last. And I can't wait for the day that both the president, vice president and speaker of the House are all women. And I promise you, our country is going to be great.

We already know what happens when men run it. It's shitty. We've seen it. I'm just being real with you. We've seen it. Wars, everything. We started out, we did all this shit, famine, all this shit we talking about. We did it. Women didn't do it. We did it. So let's put them in charge. And this is the first step. And I feel very optimistic.

Man, go beautiful. Come back and talk to me again any time you tell me Renesas face. That, my friends, was full stop, full stop. Amazing. Be sure to check out Caramel's book, Carano My Story of Embracing Purpose, Healing and Hope. Check out his podcast on Luminary and give him a follow at Chromeo, of course, on both Twitter and Instagram. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you could do is to subscribe to it on Apple podcast Spotify and YouTube.

Sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course, always appreciated. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner and many other subjects subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page on my website. Rich RoboCup. Today's show is produced and engineered by Jason Camilo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, Portraits by Ali Rogers, Graphic Elements courtesy of Jessica Miranda and our theme music was created by Tyler, Pietje, Trapper Pietje and Harry Mathis.

Appreciate the love and support. Thank you for listening. Piece that.