I'd have to say that the ocean probably has had the biggest impact on shaping the way I behave more than any one person, except maybe my mom, because she Bertman, she had a huge influence, of course. But the lessons that you learn from the ocean, the relationship that you have with it, it covers so many things. And I know that my reverence for its power, its beauty, like it's just the harmony riding the wave is is the act of harmony.

You're trying to be harmonious with it. You don't conquer waves. You have the fortune to ride them for a moment and be part of them. And yeah, you don't there's no conquering the ocean. I think that the most honest way you can live is to know that dying is very easy and you can die any minute. Death is ever present. And the truth is, is that right now death has a name and it's walking around and it's affecting people severely because their relationship with death is so insulated through just the way life has become that we're not living honestly like we would if we were out in nature being threatened constantly by stuff than our awareness would be so heightened.

But, you know, I feel that you don't know what being truly alive is without that relationship to that edge. Hi, I'm Laird Hamilton and this is the Rich Roll podcast. The Rich Roll podcast, greetings, humanoids, welcome to the podcast, it is true, the legendary master of the big wave, the Watermann God global icon, truly one of the world's greatest athletes, Laird Hamilton. He is indeed here. It's all very exciting. But before we get into it, a little housekeeping first is that I should mention, we recently created a brand new YouTube channel just for podcast short clips.

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That's native deo dot com slash roll or use promo code. Roll a check out for 20 percent off your order. OK, Laird. You know, most of the focus on this guy is typically around him surfing some of the biggest and heaviest waves on Earth. We all know that part. But underappreciated, I think at least, is his unbelievable impact and his legacy as an innovator and innovator of crossover board sports of all shapes and sizes, not just tow in surfing, but stand up paddleboarding, which I'm not sure would even be a thing today without Laird and the more recent hydrofoil boarding explosion, which really began with Laird tinkering in a garage many, many years ago.

Now, of course, we all know him as this fitness lifestyle and longevity icon, a guy who has truly transcended his sport. And this is a conversation less about the board and more about what drives Laird, how his fulfillment derives not from competition, but but from immersion in nature and accomplishing what he questions possible. We talk about training routines and entrepreneurship. Of course, he just took his nutrition company, Laird Superfoods, through an IPO, which is pretty cool.

But at the heart, this is a discussion about the pursuit of fear, a belief that the only way to feel truly alive is to dance with death, to glide on the edge of disaster, and to purposefully seek out that which scares you most if you ask Laird. I think that he would tell you that we're all very much over insulated from the elements, that we've muted our natural intuitions and shortcut it our connection to nature. And his call is about the importance of reconnecting with that part of what makes us innately human, to push our limits, to immerse ourselves in nature, to seek out fear and ultimately approach our lives as art.

I found Larry to be wise and intuitive, a guy who's just hyper connected to himself and, of course, the natural world. He's also refreshingly humble and grounded with this deep reverence for the ocean and the sports he loves.

But there's also this enthusiasm and kind of a surprising and beautiful, childlike wonder about him that I found very, very endearing. I love it. I think you guys are going to love it, too. So with that, I give you the great Laird Hamilton. Laird Hamilton in the House, thanks, man. Appreciate you coming out to do this on your mark. Get set, go. Yeah, it was close. It was close.

We've been going back and forth. This may be one of the longest. Your schedule. My schedule scheduling. I know it's it's been a minute. We were supposed to do this last week, then aswell emerged. And God forbid I'm going to get in between you and a wave. Not that I could, but that wasn't happening. So here we are. I suppose it's flat out today.

Yeah, somewhere. It's not that much the story of my life. That's where that's where your dream state.

That's right. Over where there might be as well.

Well, I don't know if you have any recollection of this at all. I'd be surprised if you did. But back in about it was late 2012. My family and I were living at common ground and in the years behind behind the restaurant there. And I was doing some stuff with Chris Jabe at the time. And you and your family would come and eat at the restaurant pretty much every day, eating Rothman's amazing food that places no longer. Right.

So that was one of the saddest things I've ever seen. People work their whole lives to make a successful restaurant. You don't ever when you get one, you never you're never supposed to stop it.

But losing like 50 grand a month or something like that on that restaurant, he was doing it just because it was a passion of his and he wanted to make it available to the community, but he was like hemorrhaging money on it.

Yeah, well, I think emerging on the project, the restaurant was actually the one of the probably the only successful thing.

I think he was going money on the restaurant as well. Yeah. Yeah. And we had come out I was trying to help him figure out something productive to do with the property.

But, you know, ultimately, he couldn't figure out what he wanted to do with it. And and he's moved on from then. But that was like a really precious period in our family's life to, like, live on that farm for that. But we're there for, like almost four months.

And I just remember you guys coming in and that's where I started this podcast. And Gabby was like my third guest on the show or something like that.

But I would see you and and like you scared like I was intimidated by you. Like I was too afraid to come and talk to you.

I was like, oh, Laird over there, man, I want to talk to him. But I felt like I never did. And then it took this many years for us to get together and do the podcast. So anyway, that's my big well, as soon as I looked at you, I knew you like my name.

Stuff is the worst in the world, but facial recognition, I think it's probably connected to survival.

So you know the phones in the friends. Yeah, but I look it when you're saying the door, I'm like, I know.

I seen that guy. Yeah, I know you.

I remember Gabby talking to my wife Julie at one point and she was like she was like, you guys might like Maui, you know? And that's a loaded statement.

I spent a lot of time on the islands on all of it's not nearly not nearly as much time as you have, obviously, but there's something very powerful in the energy. You can feel it when you're in Hawaii for sure, and more than any other place on the north shore of Kauai. And that was a it was a challenging period for us because, you know, we we we were new. We were interlopers and we were trying to, like, create a little community or a little, you know, like plant some roots there because we weren't sure we were going to come back to L.A. like we were considering staying there.

And it was it was hard now and trying to navigate like the unwritten rules about how you behave in that part of the world.

That's true. Well, and each island is his distinctly different. Every island's different. The sides of the islands are different. And Kauai is you know, Kauai is the lie. We say, you know, bright light. Dark shadow. Right. You know, it has it has the and it's and it's I mean, I don't know if there's a connection to it's the wettest place on earth. Yeah. It's you know, and just it's kind of and it's the unconquered kingdom by Kamehameha so that the great uniter of the you know, of all the islands couldn't conquer Hawaii.

And so Kauai has kind of a it has a you know, there's an aspect to it. I think that it definitely makes you kind of introspective. I think you just go there and you kind of go in. And if you're not ready for fully in, then it's.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's there's incredible life, but there's a heavy darkness there and you can feel it. And I spend more, more time on the big island. Yeah. A lot of time not, you know, in Kailua but yeah. In the small towns and ride bike all around the island. And I think most people's relationship with Hawaii is they fly there, they're at a resort the entire time. They have a great time.

That's not Hawaii and always a very different place. And you really you can't fuck around with that energy because it will very well.

Yeah. And we because Gabby and I laugh because she grew up on islands, too. So she has island sensitivity and island awareness. And you see people kind of glamorize, hey, we're going to move there and live in the paradise and the whole thing. And then you just kind of go, OK, well, if you're coming in with that naivete like. You're coming in thinking it's just everything's all, you know, rose petals, you're going to probably had a rude awakening, it's better to go, you know, and Gabby says this the best.

And I listen, I was raised there. I've lived there, you know, I mean, it was a technicality that I wasn't born in Hawaii. I was born in San Francisco, but been in Hawaii since I was three months old. And I always walk like I'm a visitor, you know? And I think it's important probably to do that everywhere in life. Like you always feel like you're just you're a visitor, because whenever you see people that get to prideful of, you know, hey, I'm such insecure I'm from here or something like that, I think that kind of I think that can hold you back and definitely affect your conduct.

Yeah. I mean, it requires an extra level of humility, I guess. I remember I wanted to shoot some video stuff and I was talking to Joel Guy. All right. Yeah. And we were planning some stuff and I thought, well, I can just go I was going to go to this beach and do this thing. And he's like, you can't do it. You know, it's like if I'm not with you, forget it. Yeah.

You know, it's like you're you know, they don't know who you are. Yeah.

You know, and that's different and new like like and I'm not trying to get in anybody's way. And he's like, no, no, no.

Yeah I understand. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Joel and I have been childhood friends, Joel, since we were we were a little kid. He's still doing his thing out there.

He's still doing it. He does a lot of community stuff. So he's working in in Honolulu and then working with the community, trying to I mean, the community has ongoing things. I mean, with floods and hurricanes and and then covid and I mean, all this stuff is adding.

I was I would have thought you'd be already out there by now.

Yeah, I normally I would be we just have had a lot of a lot of work stuff going on with the girls, especially, too, because my daughters, you know, my my middle daughter is is hitting a lot of tennis balls.

And so there's not a great, you know, in the wet spot on Earth. You better have a covered tennis court if you want, you know, to be able to put time into that. And then my youngest daughter is going to school, which in the past was online now.

Now it's then it wasn't last year and now it's back online, of course, because because of what's going on with the pandemic.

But so the girls are kind of holding me back here.

I'm also just finishing a home on on the island that I've been working on for twenty years.

So, like, a lot like I, I have sometimes these crazy, like, lifelong goals, you know, that they're like they they come to fruition like twenty and thirty years down the line.

It's it's not on purpose, but it just seems like maybe that just like a relentless pursuit, like you have a vision or a dream or see something and then you just and you get you know, you get distracted but you just keep coming back to it.

And eventually, you know, he's sitting there like how I babysat getting you on the podcast two, three years. Yeah, well, but you were talking to Gabby. So at the end, you had you know, you had you had the but, you know, good life.

That's interesting because you don't strike me as somebody who who is like a goal setter. You strike me as somebody who's more like intuition base, like you follow your heart, you follow your your curiosity, your creativity. It's not like here's my goal and I'm working towards that. You see more in the moment in general. You know, maybe I'm using the wrong word. I'm using following my my intuitions and following my instincts and then identifying something. I think I've had the fortune to be able to sometimes understand what certain things will mean.

Oh, you know, in time, like, hey, if you get on this board and you start paddling and that eventually that's going to people are going to like to do that. They're going to able to do that all over. You know, it's you know, I think there's an aspect to innovation that you understand what the mechanism or what the idea will eventually turn into. So and then it so that almost seems Gaulish at times. Yeah.

But it almost gets a little go, but it's rooted in play like, yeah, you go out and start playing around with toe surfing. Yeah. Because there's no waves. It's not like oh yeah. I'm imagining reinventing surfing. Yeah. Now it's just like one thing leads to another. That's from, you know, a year later you're doing things that you wouldn't have anticipated when you first just started fucking around with that stuff. That's true.

But, you know, quote I really like is that they say that innovative people are fulfilled by accomplishing things and that competitive people are fulfilled by beating others. And I think I'm really on the the I really enjoy the, you know, that fulfillment of, OK, I think I can do this and then and then not I can beat this guy or I can outdo that guy.

It's more about, you know, accomplishing these tasks, which is internal. It's an internal thing. It's not you're not measuring you've never been one to measure yourself against what anybody else is doing. It's all just how it measures up against what you think you're capable of. Exactly. Yeah. Or what's possible. Like what you might not even be capable of, but. But is that possible? And then you figure out how to become capable of it.

Right. You know. Right. Right, right. Yeah. Necessity is the mother of invention. Yeah. Yeah. You know what's funny about that? I watched. I watched Riding Giant. Last night, I had been I don't know when that movie came out as a while ago, but I hadn't seen it in a long time and I watched as a refresher Stacy Peralta.

Yeah, it's amazing. And what struck me is, you know, you've been labeled with this moniker of being like the innovator in surfing, and you certainly are that. But when you watch that movie, you understand that the history of surfing is innovation.

It's constant innovation. Right. Like from the very beginning, when you track it all the way back to the first big waves that were surfed and how they just iterate and iterate and iterate like you're just continuing in that tradition, which is makes it weird when you hear like I know there are people that are traditionalists in some regard that give you shit for new things, but this is always something is right.

Yeah.

From it from the very beginning back to, you know, a thousand years ago, I didn't realize, like, that's when it started or even or even more then I think it came out of the necessity to learn how to navigate, you know, going out into the ocean when there was surf and then and then then through that, like the guy, if you could take your boat and ride the waves and then you brought in the whole understanding of.

But, you know, I grew up in a time when in surfing that it was all about innovation.

Like that was the focus. And then it kind of I think when the competitive aspect of surfing came in, it kind of stopped innovation because it forced a certain, you know, its future. Well, yeah, because you couldn't take the risk to go out and try something that didn't work. It it'd be like it'd be like if you're a bike racer and you're going to go on a bike race, you're not going to try some new prototype bike in a bike race because it's going to break.

You're just going to go with what, you know, works.

And I think that kind of in a way, you know, they talk about in like in computer design that all the innovations happened when there was a think tank, when everybody were together and they were just throwing ideas. And then as soon as somebody got competitive or they got possessive with an idea and held it and then stopped sharing, then that's when it kind of everything slowed down for a while.

And so, you know, when I was a kid, I just remember everybody that I was around, they were, you know, I mean, was the 60s and people were, you know, doing all kinds of drugs as well to give to you maybe to give their imagination more of a boost. But the truth is, there was a lot of innovation going on and they were doing weird designs and weird boards.

And I mean, if you look back then and you look at the equipment, you're like some of the stuff is so bizarre looking. And and and then it kind of went through this flat period.

But I think for me, I always that was the you know, Brian Chelina is a great Hawaiian waterman and kind of a Hawaiian chief. And, you know, he he always would say, hey, don't define me by my equipment, which I appreciated that. It's like it's just a tool like a which, you know, what are you going to use? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's interesting that the flat period lines up with the rise of competitive surfing and competitive surfing is not part of like it's never even addressed in writing. You know, it's like this is not part of that narrative at all. And you never even dipped your toe in that right.

When I was little, we played because it was fun. You know, when you're a little kid, you go down and it was like you and your friends showed up at the little surf contest at the beach and you all went out and kind of it was like and, you know, there was no money.

Yeah. And then money came along and, you know, and then it was all of a sudden it was like, OK, everybody got gets weird.

Yeah. Yeah. Gets aggressive.

And but, you know, looking back now, we're in this we were talking about social media and our kids before and before this started. And you know how how addictive all of that is. But one thing that it has created is the ability for athletes in all different disciplines and specialties to kind of craft their own path.

Like when I look back on your career, like you were really the first or one of the first people who said, I'm not going to do I'm going to be a professional athlete on my own terms and I'm going to define what those terms are. I'm not going to I'm not going to participate in this structure. I'm going to do it outside of that. And that was pretty radical at the time. And you've been successful in that. And what the path for many to follow in your in your footsteps.

But now, because of these technological tools, you're seeing athletes do that like they can make a name for themselves and support themselves doing what they love without it being in that traditional competitive environment.

Well, I mean, really, in all art. I mean, if you look at all art in a way, I mean, you look at music, you can get exposure. I mean, that's one of the I mean, you know, every like in bright light. Dark shadow, right? Yeah. One of the one of the great things about, you know, social media and just these tools, the block I call it, is that you can it's an opportunity to expose your skills and your talent to the world.

And the followers will decide if you have a bunch of people following and are interested in what you're doing or saying or dressing or whatever it is you're doing.

It's I mean, you can. Make a living from right in, which is pretty amazing. It is cool. I mean, super cool that people can do that. It is. It is. And it's and it's allowing a lot more freedom in in our in general. When I call art, I just mean self-expression. Right. In a way, it's it's it's forms of self-expression. And in my case, it just happens to be in sport.

But in some other cases is in music. It's in cooking, it's in fashion. It's in, you know, lifestyle. It's you just go down the line.

But it had to be hard back in those early days trying to figure out how you're going to make that work. But you just you just try to do everything in your life and we're like, what do you do? Like, you got to get a job, right?

Well, you subsidize it any way you can. That's why I did. You know, it's like, oh, a modeling job. Hey, you look good in that thing. Take a picture or, hey, you're going to be, you know, be in a movie and you can do stunt work. I'll do I mean, it's like you did whatever you needed to do to subsidize your. Yeah, I always said, you know, now I'm in a position where I can subsidize my excavator, work with surfing.

I would I would subsidize surfing with excavation, like I go dig an excavator so I could go surfing. So you did whatever you could.

I think one thing that really allowed me a real opportunity was, was Oxbow, which was this French company that sponsored me for more than 20 years.

And, you know, because I didn't have to, you know, cut trees, mow yard, dig holes, apportionment hammer nails to survive because I had that support. It allowed me a little more freedom to practice my skills and to be creative and to work on stuff.

And so that was a fortunate thing. I think without them and that support during that stretch of time, I wouldn't have had quite the luxury to be able to be as creative as I was. So I think that that that was a unique thing that happened. But, you know, all along the way, you're always, you know, you just do whatever the puzzle pieces.

But you grew up, you know, on when you're when you're a kid on the North Shore and you're seeing all those dudes, you know, who obviously influenced you so profoundly, like that's what they were doing. Right. So you realize, like, oh, I can I can figure out how to get a bag of rice or whatever absolutive. Oh, yeah. They do whatever fish in the summer work on the thing. And I mean, you did.

They would do.

I mean and it's a little bit like it's a little bit island lifestyle.

Like sometimes I get around people and they're like, well how do you know how to do that.

Like how do you how do you know how to fix that thing? And I go, well, I lived at the end of a road where if you didn't fix it, it was broken. Right. There was no like call the guy that fixes those. There was no you know, it wasn't so specialized like it is now. Like you just had to kind of you know, I always love MacGyver. Like McGyver for me is the best. Just give me the bubblegum and the duct tape and a little tightwire wire and, you know, and you can just jerry rig something and get something that was broken to work.

And I think that that mentality is definitely useful in, well, not only survival, but in innovation. Yeah, innovating. Yeah. These new iterations of what surfing is and can be exactly that imagination.

That's what Thomas Edison said. He said, well you need to be an inventor is an imagination and a pile of junk.

So I'm like, well, I always had the job. He was a good marketer to me. There's always that part time. Yeah. Yeah, well, there's that too. That's a piece of it.

I want to talk about water and your relationship to water and the ocean. Like I'm I'm in certain respects, like a different kind of water. And I'm a swimmer. I grew up swimming. Swimming is my passion and it started in pools.

And, you know, I've I've done interesting things in the water, like mono swimming, things like that. And now it's about ocean swimming. And then I got into ultra endurance triathlon and all that. But I have a very deep and emotional connection to the experience of being in water and underwater. That's overlaps with yours a little bit, I would suppose. So I'm interested in how you think about your relationship to the ocean and you know how you articulate like what that means.

Well, first of all, that's my grand master, right? Like if you said who's your you know, people say who you look up to or who's you who do you you know, who influenced you? I mean, I'd have to say that the ocean probably has had the biggest impact on shaping, you know, the way I behave more than any any one person, except maybe my mom, because she Bertman she had a huge influence, of course.

But the lessons that you learn from the ocean, the relationship that you have with it, it just it covers so many things. And I know that, you know, my reverence for the ocean, just my my my reverence for its power, its beauty, you know, it's its magnitude, like it's just the massiveness of it. And it's our space. Right. Like the ocean is our space on Earth. Like if you want to know what space is like, you just go to the ocean and that will tell you what you can go to the edge of the space or you can go deep into space.

But that gives you, in my opinion, that that gives you it was a great escape for me when I was a kid to to leave kind of the the.

The cares of the land behind you. Yeah, all the worries and all the stresses when you're under water, all of that gets muted. Right. And it's just between you and the elements.

Yeah, I maybe just a giant shark that may be lurking in the distance, just like there's always there's always that in the back of your head. Like, let me see. I'm not a big fan of swimming out in the middle of the ocean with a mass that you can't see very well.

But but the but, you know, so I think, you know, so so the relationship with the animals in the ocean, with the way just with the with how it makes you feel like like it. Like the therapy of the it's you being back in the womb.

It is, you know. Yeah. And you get healed from it.

Like you can go and be in the water and you know, now we get all the science. I say science follows instinct, but, you know, you get you have these ideas like, hey, this really like I go there and I feel different. Everything's different. Then they get some data and they're saying like, well, because you're getting negative ions, everything, and you're grounding in your progression and all this stuff.

But Andrew Kuperman shows. Yeah. Validates. Yeah. You've been telling yourself for 20 years. No, it's true. It's true.

And that's and that's kind of I mean, that's pretty amazing in this time, you know, in the in the world that we can do that, that we're getting to do that. But it seems like your your instincts, you know, your gut instincts and your intuitions and all those things, those serve you. Right. And I think there's a karmic thing. I mean, obviously, the ocean is the most conductive element on earth. And so, you know, sound travels through it, sound waves, but also wave energy, what we write.

So, you know, and I know, like, karmically whenever I'm in the ocean and I and I have some negative thoughts or some feelings or something, I usually just pay instantaneously.

I, I crash the wave comes and hits me in a car. Oh yeah, that's right.

I was supposed to I got a I got a shed. That stuff I got, I got a I got a clear another.

I got like a deeper level of humility. I mean there's this idea that you're conquering these waves. You're not gonna use the waves, you're trying to you're trying to to exist in symbiosis with them.

Harmonious. That's always talk about the harmony. Riding the wave is is the act of, you know, is an act of harmony. You're trying to be harmonious with it. You don't conquer waves. You have the fortune to ride them for a moment and be part of them. And, you know, if everything goes right. But, yeah, you know, there's no conquering.

Not on the ocean. No, I you know, my sense is that it gives you this deep appreciation for the natural world. Like I had Alex Honnold on here.

I've had Chilian Jaune and like the themes, you know, it's just this this, like the majesty of nature is is just so profound when you're, you know, in the midst of trying to do your thing.

Yeah, well, I don't agree with that harsh natural environment where the stakes are very high.

The observant, you know, being observant, I think that's it. Even today, like, I was at not my house.

And there are some hawks that that fly by my house and and just and they come and, you know, and it's and the more aware you are, it seems, the more connected you become to it.

And all of a sudden it's almost like they come over and say hi to you and you're like, hey, how's it going?

They occur and they then they turn away.

And I mean, you could go yallock the hawk. But did the hawk I mean, you're connecting with the hawk. The hawk came in, but you have to be observant to even see the hawk. Then you have to actually put the energy in the thoughts to to the hawk in a way that you that you're how you're observing it and what you're what it means to you.

And that happens with the dolphins. That happens with the, you know, the whale.

That happens with all the the the creatures of creation and ultimately nature of nature is just it is creation. Right. So we talk about creation, the great creation will nature's creation. So so you get to observe it. And I think I think being aware of it, being aware of the sunrise and the sunset and the movement and all that stuff connecting to it allows you a deeper relationship with it.

You just can't because you can't have this deep relationship without it, without without having that, you know, the observation and being aware of all these things as you become the more aware you become, the deeper that relationships become and then the more it shows itself to you. You think people talk about going on these journeys and reconnecting with nature. And I'm like, if you're already connected, then that's not going to be so profound.

It's just it's so many of us have grown so far away from, hey, it's hot, I'll turn the AC on. It's cold, turn to chill. I think it's dark to the lights on. Hey, you know, it's bright, but the shades on, it's like we're just we're insulating ourselves from from it. And, you know, and obviously the ocean is the is the king because it's alive and living and has I mean, all the things it can do, just freezing and liquid and steam and just I mean, we just it's like the UN, you know, the UN expressible element.

It's just has too many and still so mysterious. Mystery, you know, mysterious, but on the on the hawk example. I mean, I think the hawk example to me is an illustration of the fact that no matter where you are, you're still in nature. Like we have this bifurcated like idea. Like right now we're not in nature. Like, if we need to go down to a point doomed to be in nature, but we're in nature right now.

Oh, absolutely. Always in nature. And we always have that opportunity to be more connected to the environment and the energy and everything that's going on if we can be still and observant. Amen.

Yeah, I think that that's one of the things that will help everyone, will help humanity the most is if we can continue to to read because we have it right.

We have we have an ability to really be be connected to nature in a way that that we don't is so profound. We don't even fully understand the depth of what we're capable of and what we and the depth of that relationship. Because, you know, I always you know, we are it and it is us. I mean, we're so can you know if you think you're not connected to the sun, if you think you're not connected to, you know, everything and you're not and it's not you and you're not it, then that's, you know.

Right. And that's the big separation right now. It seems that in the present that that we've we become so insulated that that's what's leading to people being, you know, either depressed or having physical ailments or whatever it is. A lot of it is because they're not fulfilling. I believe they're not fulfilling, you know, this void, which is what nature was fulfilling, like nature was filling this void in them through just even even observation, even just looking and connecting that way is filling this.

And then all of a sudden you have this void and then you're just putting stuff in it that the body, you know, and the soul and everything can't. Yeah. Can't connect.

Not probably not a lot of not an epidemic of of anxiety and depression in indigenous tribes that are, you know, dealing with survival and connected fundamentally to the world in which they live.

You know what I mean? Yeah, there would be none that no allergies either.

But they'll get on top of that to to engage in, you know, the high risk kind of adventures that, you know, light you up. Yeah. Gives you, you know, it puts you in in this contact with the fragility of life or what death means.

That, I think enlivens your daily experience. Right. Like how how do you think about risk and death?

Well, I mean, first of all, I think. Is the most honest way you can live is is to to know that dying is very easy and you can die any minute. Mm hmm. And then how would you conduct yourself? You know what I mean? And it's and I think for me, that's a daily challenge and a and a weekly challenge and a monthly challenge and yearly challenges is to always have that kind of awareness that that death is ever present.

And the truth is, is that the truth is that right now death has a name and it's walking around and people are it's affecting people severely because they because their relationship with death is is so insulated through just the way life has become, that it's we're not living honestly like you would if we were out in nature being threatened constantly by stuff, then we'd be our awareness would be so heightened.

But, you know, I feel that you don't know what being truly alive is.

And unless without that relationship to that edge, you know, to knowing where that edge is like when you're a kid, like, hey, where is this place where, you know, where do you fall off? It's just it's just a big if you take the evolution of what's dangerous when you're a little kid and you grow into a mature adult, then you go, OK, well, that's the same relationship. Just everything has become the scales have become bigger.

Yeah, but it's still it's still honest. It's just so honest. It's I know for me it makes me a better person. If I if I am if I go in those situations and in the environments and around the the the strength of it, the strength of vulnerability, the the strength of true vulnerability. And, you know, the the highest end of vulnerability is death. Right. I mean, there's all kinds of vulnerability, like, hey, get your feelings hurt.

And, you know, the tribe might accept you public speaking. I mean, people are fear that more than death because they're worried about acceptance.

So but vulnerability. Right. Vulnerable, being vulnerable and and how that makes you and that makes you just feel so alive. And that's honest.

That's that's what's what's interesting about that is that it runs so counter to every message that we see out in the world, which is all about comfort and luxury and, you know, fancy bullshit or whatever.

And we're, you know, sort of fed this narrative that if we want to be happy, it's all about, you know, getting the stuff or isolating ourselves, removing ourselves from anything threatening.

And in truth, you're a living example of this. That sense of purpose or that engagement with the world that gives you that feeling of being alive only comes through challenging yourself or immersing yourself in the elements and pushing the boundaries of what you're capable of. And it's it's something that it's not like a one and done.

You got to do it your whole life. It's a practice like anything else.

It's a daily practice. And and the truth is, that's the irony. Right. The irony of the story is that that all the things that you think what you are, what you need are the things that are going to are going to bring you the furthest away from your your goal, which would be to feel alive and be healthy at the end of the day, like when it's connected to health. Right.

It's like, you know, the irony is, is that that that exposing yourself to great threat. Makes you the healthiest you can be, which is that that's like that, right? That's the most confusing thing ever, right. Like, OK, go do dangerous stuff and then that'll make you that'll make you the healthiest you could be. You're kind of like, OK, well, that seems it seems like you should be really safe and do you thing.

And then that would make you vulnerable to be really sick.

You know, it's that simple.

Like it's really that I think there's there's a you know, I always talk about if everybody just scared themselves once a day that it genuinely scared themselves once a day, it would be good for you. Like, it would just it would just reset. Like everything gets reset. You're like, OK, all right.

Like and I use an example of, you know, sometimes you're driving down the road and you're kind of just you're feeling a little flat and all of a sudden some, you know, an animal runs out or a car almost get something happens and you get that adrenaline right boost. And then all of a sudden you're just like your vision gets real sharp. All of a sudden you're just like everything just gets clear and you're like you're aware and you're in your senses are in high alert.

And you're like, and it took that it was just flown that quick and that that living in the state of that kind of awareness is such a better it's just just a better way to you know, it's like it's a better way to live.

But it's also about having a healthy relationship with that, because you can you can you know, you can have an addictive life that that will destroy your relationships. And, you know, you just become you have tunnel vision. That's what's the next thing that's going to jack me up. Right. I'm sure you have friends like that. A lot of them are not only destruction in their wake. Yeah, exactly right. Yeah.

A lot of guys I know there.

Is that ever been like something you've had to like, you know, deal with or you seem pretty grounded and and level about the whole. Yeah.

You know, I, I mean, listen, I think I was I've been fortunate to be around enough of those guys and watched, you know, I've seen a lot of good guys, you know, die because of the because of the of the either the complacency from doing it, doing stuff and not retaining that respect. Maybe they got a little comfortable. You know, it's like they dropped their guard. And most of the guys that I know that went down doing dangerous stuff, it was it was more about that.

You know, it's just maybe too many, too many times at it or too much of it and not enough balance, like not enough. You know, it's like for me, I feel like it's important to to get, you know, I guess I guess for me the when I look at it, because, like you said, not huge, like obvious goal setter, but I have one goal in mind.

Which is to live, to survive. That's at the top. Yeah, that's the thing.

And I want that and I'd like to be able to house and I like to be and I'd like to and I'd like to to be old and gray, like I would like to. I see. That is like the objective is to be standing at the end. Right. And so if that's the goal, then that means that you have to go about things not like, you know, burn out hot and go out on fire.

Like because I think that that and and that's I mean, at a certain point along your course, you've got to make a decision.

You have to make a decision about what you know, because you can you can get caught into that. Right. You can get caught into that. And then there's something pretty selfish about that, actually. And so and because at the end. I mean, when you die, you don't care, but what about all the people that care about you? And so in a way, you got your you got your people that you love, your family, your friends, these other people that.

So some of it becomes that someone becomes like, hey, you know what I do?

I want to do that to my kids. Do I want to do that to my wife? I mean, we don't know the time or the place. Of course no one does. And it could be in ten minutes. It could be in ten days. Could be in ten years. Could be, you know, we don't know that. Right.

So but the honest way to go about it is, is, OK, you know, we always go any risk taking that we take, we it's all about there's a there's a there's a kind of a methodical process that we go through in that so that, you know, the more dangerous it is, the slower you go, the more the more the more preparation you have, the more you know, there's a certain, like, formulaic process that you do to do things that are shooting out all the all the external noise.

Right. So that you can you can hear your intuition and, you know, when it's the right moment.

Well, and be and be good with saying no, be good with like you know what, I don't feel like the days off or you're like when Alex Arnold's on the wall, he was going to he was going to make the ascent.

That was the best thing. Not yeah. He's like, I'm not doing it. I respected that that particular scene and all the cameramen out there, they're like, oh, that's that's perfect. I know that. I respect that. Not, you know what, go anyway. And then timber. Right. Because you sensed it. But but the pressure of all the whole thing, I can I can appreciate that because it's knowing how to make the that that's a big judgment call.

Yeah. Yeah. Because those guys were already all the cameramen had scaled up. There was there was a lot of stuff there already in motion.

So being able to like completely tune that out and not have that be part of the calculus about whether you're going to do that hard thing or not.

It takes a lot that takes like a you know, a solid, you know, barometer.

Important. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that that but that's a reflection of the real barometer that allows you to do the other thing, too.

So at the end of the day, it takes a certain, you know, for him to do that, actually be able to do that climb.

You really have to have a certain because people you know, I think when people watch things that are that are, you know, in from their perspective, you know, beyond understanding, they they they like to they like to disclaim it as OK, that that's just a reckless person. That person decides they're just you know, they're just reckless.

They don't want to say, hey, no, that's some calculated well, you know, well orchestrated prepare. It's the end point on a multi decade journey that this person's been on. Yeah. You know, it's easy to look at you and say, well, you know, of course, Larry can do that because Larry's laird, you know, certainly you have, you know, some genetic gifts and you have a certain level of talent. But to dismiss what you're doing is just, well, that's because he's Laird is to deny, like, all the work that you've done like this, this dedication that you've shown over the course of your entire life to get you to the point where you could drop in on a wave that nobody's ever surfed before.

Yeah, well, that's and I think that's the I think that that's always the part where, you know, when they when they talk about people being adrenaline junkies and the goal, that guy's just an adrenaline junkie.

I think that's a way to let them off the hook so they don't have to actually, you know, to to do the work and pursue the thing that they might be interested in, actually.

And but they'll be like, oh, yeah, no, that's just that's just the way you know, that's the way there's a disclaimer to let that be an easy, not an easy way for people to not have to look in the mirror and and evaluate where they might have your potential, because that's scary. Scary. A lot of people don't want to do that. They know. You know.

No, but at the same time, there is that kind of, you know, addiction junkie mentality. There is a there's a strain of that in all extreme sports in life. But, you know, it's certainly part of the the kind of historical record of surfing. You know, you grew up in a culture of like play hard, play hard. Right. But you've emerged from that as somebody who I look at, as you know, part of I would suspect now the young surfers look to people like yourselves.

It's not about the partying lifestyle and it's really about how can I optimize my performance and body, mind and spirit. Right. Like, you sort of set the tone. Yeah. For this next generation of surfers. And you see it like the Smith Brothers are all about that. Like there's a it's a it's a healthier ecosystem right now.

Well, you know, listen, I was I was around a lot of radical stuff growing up.

And and, you know, I can remember, you know, seeing guys that you looked up to that were like your heroes and then you'd see them on a on a park bench with a paper bag, you know, falling over. And and just how. How painful that was as a young guy, you see, and you're like you were the guy who you were that I looked up to, right?

And now you're my hero and there you are in the gutter. And I saw it more than once.

And I think, you know, I felt like that if I was ever in that position that I would look at it like a responsibility. If I'm fortunate enough that somebody will look up to me and for some reason at all, I don't want to ever give them an excuse to justify and including my children, you know?

I mean, it's like I, I was I used to. I used to.

But I loved, you know, I love red wine. I go to France. I had French company. I get to go to Bordeaux. They'd send me cases of the most beautiful pinot noir in the world. And I'd be like, you know, this gorgeous stuff. And I was like, but I liked it. Maybe a little too much because, like, you know what? I don't want anything to have quite that kind of power over me that that I could because my mother was was a drinker.

And, you know, we had a long family, you know, a relationship with drinking. And I'm like, you know what? I think that's going to be a problem. So if my daughters decide that they want to drink, it won't be because it was just part of what we did at our house and was just like, accept that I'm going to be it's going to be because they discovered it on their own. They do it on their own, but it's not going to be because of me.

So a little bit, you know, I think a combination of all those things, like seeing seeing guys that, you know, ruined their lives. And I think death's like bunker Spreckels, you know, overdosing and guys, you know, and then and then heroes being, you know, just zero hero to zero. And then you're looking at that guy and you're like, wow, what a bummer that is and what a disappointment that is. And and, you know, and at the end of the day, you know, leading by example, like like in a way, it's the same thing as parenting, too.

You can say whatever you want. They're just watching what you're doing. Right.

So it's like at the end of the day and I think that's true with with, you know, if you're in a position of influence, I mean and I see it in a lot of major sports, I see, you know, a lot of, you know, influential athletes promoting, you know, stuff that's, you know, poison to to to people and, you know, for money.

But obviously, they probably have enough money. They really don't need to do it. At the end of the day, it'd be kind of good to have some discretion kind of go, you know what, probably not that stuff.

That stuff's not so great. And and every little kid that looks up to use thinks that they can drink that and it's going to make them like you or whatever that.

So I think there's a lot of things that, you know, and then.

And then and then don't forget just wanting to have optimum performance, like wanting to have wanting to be able to continue to perform at a certain level and, you know, be the gray hair at the end, be on the top of the mountain. And and you're not going to do that, you know, being stupid. So. Well, you've always had this growth mindset, right? Like you're always devoted to like trying to iterate and innovate and all these things.

And that's, I think, harder than it seems are it looks like most people kind of figure out what their lane is and then, you know, they become successful in that lane and then you get calcified around. That becomes harder to be creative and to question your set of beliefs or your approach. You know, as an athlete like this is how I this is how I optimize my performance. And then you don't want to hear about any new ideas or anything else, but you seem like somebody who's always been really open to learning and experimenting.

You know, I attribute part of that to where I grew up. So because I was you know, I grew up in an environment where there was a racial thing against guys that look like me. And so I was already I kind of had I had that. I think that was helpful because I had you know, I always used to say, you know, if people don't like you for how you're born, then why would it bother you if they don't like how you behave?

And so at the end of the day, it's like, I think that being a willingness to be a beginner again and not and be OK with people laughing at you and like you being like, you know, hey, I'm going to try this thing and it's stupid. And people are like, that's so dumb. Why do you you know, I mean, multiple times through some innovations that we were involved in, we had people just naysayers going that lame, you know, that's not surfing or what you're doing is not this or so I was used to that.

And then it becomes almost a formula.

And, you know, I talked to my friend Paul the other day about, you know, how we like the early part of the curve. You know, that early part of the curve, nice and steep when you go from, you know, a beginner to, like, starting to become proficient at anything. It's a really fulfilling thing. And then once you're at this other thing, you're at a real you know, you're at a plateau and you're just scraping for, you know, for for little tiny, you know.

Mm.

And, you know, I talk about surfing and you look at the amount of hours that we have and go, OK, well another hour on the thirty or forty or fifty thousand hours that you have, you think that's going to make you better or is being more flexible going to make you better. Are good being strong. You're going to make you better. You know, is these other things are going to have more of an influence, but you've got to be willing.

Be a beginner, I think the biggest thing is about being a beginner and willing to subject yourself to failure and being OK with that, I think I've been hurt. I've had enough injuries that helped me with that process, where you wonder if you're ever going to be able to do the thing you did and then not being and then having a you know, I think I need to not be a narcissist and to not be a have an ego.

And that's impossible.

There's no way you're not going to have some narcissism or some ego aspect to you.

I mean, you have to have a bit of an audacious sense of self to even attempt these things. And there's a healthy aspect to that. It's about keeping it in check. Right, and making sure that it's not it's not ruling the roost.

Exactly. Exactly. So so, I mean, that's an important piece to it. But, you know, willing to willing to fail. Being OK with failing is important.

And I think. And then and then what happens is you do it a couple of times and then you're like, oh yeah, I know I'm I'm at this part in the in that journey. And then you do it again, then becomes almost a formula right there becomes there becomes a formulaic aspect to learning right.

Or creativity. When you have an idea on a napkin, then you make a prototype, then you break it and you crash and you can't do it. Then you can kind of start to do it and then eventually get to a point where it's something that you can do well and it's you have things for it. And then it's and then and then it's not as interesting at that point, it becomes a little less interesting. And I think one thing I've been conscious of and lately, it's it's it's happened a little bit, you know, happened a few times where you don't become victim to your past past successes by saying, I got to go back out and show everybody.

Yeah. Like, yeah, that's what I was going to be like, you know, hey, I'm the big guy and somebody. Yatsko finds another way. Cerf's a bigger one. Yeah. Do you feel like you got to get out there and show them who's boss? You know, you're over here tinkering in your garage with new shit, but there's got to be some aspect of you. There is. But again, I think. But but that's where I said having a good perspective about your ego's voice.

Like what? What is that in you that's doing it? Like, why is there something saying you need to go show these, show people what you can do? You you did that and you showed that. And and in a way I can do that.

And I do aspects of it, whether it's on purpose or not.

But it doesn't bring me the kind of joy or the kind of satisfaction or fulfillment that doing something that I haven't done done. And I start to realize, you know, that I really am inspired by doing things I haven't done. I got the more whether it's a a distance I haven't done or a height I haven't done or speed I haven't done or something. But something that I haven't done is a lot more fulfilling. That just brings you a lot more satisfaction.

It's freeing to because you're liberated from measuring yourself against past successes. Right. I mean, as somebody who I mean, you're already somebody who doesn't really care about what other people think anyway, which is healthy but helpful.

Yeah, that is helpful. But at the same time, like, I know when I go to the pool, I don't want to look at the clock because I'm used to clocking certain kind of intervals and, you know, I'm not able to do that now.

So it's set up and I'm doing it.

Yeah, it's set up and it's like I have to constantly remind myself I'm doing this because it brings me joy, you know, APSA what else can I do or can I do something different? I'm not innovating in the sport like you are in surfing, but you have to recalibrate your relationship to these things and not hold yourself to some standard that's going to cause you suffering, right? Well, I think by opting out and just being like, well, I'm going to go do.

And then you're constantly a newcomer, you're new and you're always you're always progressing and learning.

So you're getting fulfilled through that process.

And then that's usually big improvements. Those are big successes, not from doing something that you can't do to do to being able to do it. That's a huge success. You couldn't you did not. You did something at this level and you maybe you're doing it at that level, maybe not quite at that level. I go, that's just a set up for failure. And I there's a great quote that I love that it says, Never let your memories be bigger than your dreams.

And I have to say that I really I think that that's important because I have friends that, you know, have played professional sports and and then they're retired and everything's about what they did.

Right and what they're doing or whether they're ever going to do in their life. That's going to recapture that sense of glory of being in the Coliseum, you know, right now. How do you move forward? Right. So that so so and that's that that transition is pretty tricky. I think I be twenty eight. Yeah. Yeah. By the way. Yeah. And there's probably going to probably you know, if there could be forty or fifty more years.

Right. Right.

So you know, and so I think that that's you know, the irony is, is that maybe, maybe I didn't maybe early on I didn't get I wasn't in the Coliseum and I didn't get the glory. But then I also don't get the downfall of having gotten the glory. And I can just kind of it's kind of like. It's a flat, you know, it just kind of keeps going along, which, you know, it's not on purpose.

It just ended up that that's how how it's worked out.

And and also knowing that you can go and and without approval, you can be fulfilled. So I can go out and I can do something like I'm in a stage right now where I can get a couple of friends that we can go somewhere and we can do something. And no one sees it. No one. There's not a video. There's not a film. There's nothing no one even knows.

And it works and it's great. And you come back and you feel like you feel when you did something that everybody saw and everybody said was great or people saw and said shocked, but you didn't.

So you almost it's nice to be at that at that stage. It's just it's just it's just for you. It just makes it a little bit more special. That's pretty nice. Because then because then ultimately you're in you know that that you're not relying on the approval of other people, which at the end they really, truly, really they don't care. At the end, they really don't care about you. Like like you care about you, you know.

Yeah. The funny thing about innovation is, is that it does require a certain level of foresight because we always think we're at the endpoint of everything, like it's everything is progress to its ultimate pinnacle already. Right. When surfing was at a certain competitive apex with short boards and all the, you know, like the competitions is like, well, there's nothing left to be said or done here. Right. And to be able to think outside the box and say, well, what if we try this?

What if we try? That requires a certain you know, there's something very unique about being able to see what what nobody else can see.

Well, that's what I and that's what I said to you initially, was having the understanding of what things mean. Like if I make this glass right, if I have this thing I think about, I'm going to make this thing and it's going to shape like that. You're going be able to put stuff in there, you know, and you're going to hold it and then you're going to be able to drink out of it, like. But you've got to see that right.

You have to be able to see what what the function will be at the end, because that's the only way that you get the motivation to actually continue the process, because it's a pretty R&D and that kind of development, that's can be pretty discouraging. Like there's some discouraging aspects to two ideas that and one of them is other people like that. The truth is there's a a woman who had some did some incredible innovation. I don't even know her name or what she did, but I do.

I appreciated what she said, which is they asked her, you know, when you have a great idea, you know, you know, what should you do? And she goes, just don't tell anybody for at least a year because they will discourage you. They'll be like, you know what, that cup thing that you have, that's a terrible idea. And and it'll sink in.

You'll be like and then when you break the first one and the second one and the third one and she goes right to heart and then you and then you stop and then and then that's where.

So I think there's a has to be and that's why I talk about dog with the bone, you know, that relentless thing that you're not really it's not really a goal, but somehow you're just constantly you just always go back to it. You're like, oh, the thing I get. And then you go back and I have ideas that that I've been thinking about that have gone away from. And then eventually I come back over here and I'm like, oh yeah, yeah.

And then and then I go away and I do it some other idea. And then I go back to the one and then you just keep and eventually that one just pops its head. And, you know, I mean, I think everything's about timing. I mean, we know that it's like you could do, you know, a good idea, you know, ten years ago is not a good idea today or you know what? There's ideas today that are that won't be good for ten more years.

You know, it's all right. It's just all right. Right. Right. So, yeah, I think the foiling thing is a is a good example of that. It is because the technology is at a point where they can, you know, make this available to consumers with the electric for I mean, that's just crazy out of the blue, right?

Yeah.

So when you look that seems out of the blue, but it's not it's not your falling for 15 years. You got no, but but you know, we talk about that in success to when we guys go, hey, the overnight success, Adam and the guys like have been doing this for, you know. Right. I've been doing it for ten or fifteen years. It's like, you know, it's interesting how that. Yeah.

You know, when you look back, though, you know, and think about the early days of you getting up on stand up paddle boards when no one was doing it. And now you look around and everybody's doing it. I mean, there has to be like a certain level of satisfaction. I mean, you've created like this cultural groundswell, like this popular sport that so many people are doing because you thought, hey, I should get a longer paddle so I can stand up on this thing.

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, and, you know, and Gabby and I talk about it and I think I you know, for me, in a way, those are my those are my reward.

You know, those are the rewards. Those are the those are the trophies.

Those that's like my trophy. Like people. I don't have a trophy case. I don't have a bunch of. Things like look at all my trophies, all my championships, all my stuff, I don't have any of that stuff. So in a way, those are, you know, those that's fulfilling when you see this incredible legacy.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I see that. And you get to see I mean, when you see a guy in Dubai with a turban paddling like that, you're like that was that went a long way.

Yeah. Well, I went around the whole planet.

I was watching you foil on Nazare, and it's just wild to watch that. And what was interesting is that.

It allows you to surf the wave in a completely different way, like you're not relying upon encrusting, like you're able to ride it much earlier and it gives you this longer ride. So it's a completely different relationship with the wave that that technology, you know, makes available.

Yeah, it totally. What's interesting we talk about with because of that, that we we have to really like the definition of of an unshakable a wave, you know, an unshakable wave is changed. You know, what was unthinkable before now all of a sudden becomes makeable or what was unreadable before now becomes rideable. So the parameters all change, which is interesting how, you know, you just have a different device. And now the way we look at waves and what's rideable, like that's our biggest thing, like like looking there's new waves that are that would that would never be considered for surf, for conventional surfing.

Now, all of a sudden, although it opens up the whole set of circumstances, which is which is, you know, which in a ever populated earth is pretty great when there's new frontiers.

And I guess that continues to happen with a lot of innovations. But where there's like a whole new frontier, we're like in a world where everything's saturated like our you know, most of the great surf spots on on Earth, people know and they're at and they're surfing and those numbers are increasing. And there's only so many ways now they're you know, now they're making wave pools and stuff to try to make up for that.

But but to be able to have a whole new you know, a whole new search is cool. Yeah, but but I wonder, you know, it wasn't until maybe a couple of years ago that I'd even heard of Nazare.

Did that just I mean, so it seems like in that kind of timeline of iteration, there was Makaha than there was Waimea, than there was Mavericks all of a sudden then it was about Third Reef Waimea. Then there was Jaws and then Tapu and then Nazare. Right. So it makes me think there probably is another wave out there that no one's found there.

There's always another wave. I mean, Nazare in itself is is a is a, you know. It's a it's a there's there's a couple of things happening in Nazare, which is it's a very photograph of a wave because the foreground of the lighthouse or whatever, the angle of the collective, which shows you the bottom curvature of the face and the wave also does a does a thing where it stands up for a second. It's not I mean, and nothing against Nazare, but it's not like an optimum performance surfing wave like like Jaws is like Jaws still at this moment is is the is the is the best big wave performance wave in the world.

There's just there's no I mean, I don't care what what big wave you go to, you take all the big wave riders. They'll all agree when you go to Jaws, you know, I mean, the one thing about Nazare is that it has a there's a consistency to it. And when it doubles up, it has it has it has a, you know, kind of a geographical phenomenon where there where the wave doubles up in two waves come together.

That's why they get that the extreme height of it. So there's a lot. So there's a lot of a lot of that around around Nazare that and it's in front of a cliff. So it's extremely dangerous. But as far as surfing goes, I guess a surfer, you usually that wave you like, that's not an ideal way for surfing, like as a as a as a where jaws.

You would say that. But the truth is, is that Nazare wouldn't wouldn't even be Nazare without telling that Toine, because you wouldn't you wouldn't even be able to. You wouldn't go. You wouldn't you wouldn't do it.

That's why it wasn't a surf spot, because Toine opened it up and made it become a spot. So now it's a spot because it doesn't without talent. I mean, you can surf Nazaryan on some small on the small days, like conventional, you know, prone paddling.

But but it's not a no, it's not.

It's a it's a it's a it's a yeah.

And the feeling was it the break next in Missouri, right. Yeah.

Well Borey both Nazare and and there's another wave up the coast from Nazare that that for foiling was perfect and actually was probably great on this last Giants wall that they had, but they weren't letting us into the country over there.

Right. Stuff. Yeah.

When we got there and like in the spring. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Well, I was there in what, February, February, March. Yeah. We'll be right back.

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Go to third on dotcom slash rich roll right now and get your gen forth there again today. That's Thoroughgood dotcom rich roll feragut dotcom slash. Rich roll. All right, let's get back to Leonard. Let's talk about the fitness journey and the poor workout legendary, it's been going on for a long time. Lots of dudes, you know, are part of that community. I've got tons of friends who are either part of it or have dropped in at some time or another.

There's there's a it's almost mythic at this point. Yeah. It begins with Don Wildman. Really? Yeah. So let's talk about Don a little bit. Don the king. I missed Don.

So, Don, one of my heroes is will be and always will be. Was is and he's passed away. But Mr. Wildeman.

You know, started Bally's health clubs, right, started he was a founder of the largest health club chain in the U.S., was in the Korean War when he was 17 and did the Ironman, what, first of when he was 50?

I think it did 10 or 10 or 11 Ironman and, you know, used to do all the all of the senior games in Utah, all the bike racing stuff. And and him and I, I met him at a helicopter snowboarding resort in Canada randomly. Some guy just says, hey, that's Mr. Wildman, you need to meet him, go over there. And so I went over there and, hey, nice to meet you. And he was sitting there and then and then cut to like two years.

Three years later, I was down in Malibu at a at a restaurant that we had breakfast, walked in there. Gabby and I had just moved move there. And he happened to live right up the street.

And then him and I just started spending time together and, you know, doing a bunch of crazy things. He just was an endurance monster. Right?

Any any, you know, Destra workout on a bike. Yeah. He just was a monster when it when it came to just, you know, suffering. He was the king of suffering. He loved suffering.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was the original crew. Yeah. Like he had this spot down at the beach. Yeah.

You guys would meet up there and his jams and. Yeah. And his crazy jam. He had a crazy circuit workout that take you two and a half hours and then we'd ride the bike after to go eat breakfast and, and, and then I kind of brought all of the water stuff to him. So it was like he he swam because he, you know, triathlons and stuff, but he never so I got him into falling in stand up paddling and all that kind of stuff.

And so we started, you know, venturing into the water. Right. And and I did the race across America with him, at least part of it.

I remember we did part of that. Something happened. Yeah. Our halfway in we got hit.

All right. One of our teammates got got run over by the opposing teams. Escort vehicle broke my friends like. So that put us out of the race. And because we were trying to we were trying to keep Dawn was trying to break the record.

He just wanted to go break the record with a bunch of people that no one heard of was a free man for the four man relay. It was. And then you ended up like paddleboarding down the Mississippi or something like that? I did the Colorado. I did the Colorado. I've been down in Colorado and get a paddle and. But you know, all that, right? All that suffering. I think we are our best one was we did I call it the Hawaii five hundred.

But we we biked every island in Hawaii and paddled every channel consecutively.

So we biked across the big island like 125, 130 miles from South Point to the to the tip. And then we paddled to Maui. Then we biked across Maui, then we paddled to Molokai, then we biked across Molokai. We paddled Oahu by Wahoo and then paddled to Kawhi. The last battle was twenty two hours. So I have twenty two hours on Toccoa and then we won subtenants then we.

Yeah, yeah. That was I did suffer in Phoenix after I did five Irishman's on the five Hawaiian Islands.

Yeah. Oh yeah. That was bad ass. But I wasn't paddling in between the islands.

Took an airplane. Yeah. No you know but so that was we've had some, we had some fun with Don, Don and I and he was crushing it.

Right. He passed at eighty five. Yeah. So he was crushing it to the day, to the like the last month he just he, he tapered off and that was it.

He had some, he had some lung stuff with. I kind of feel like maybe he was attributed to all those hours on PCH, you know, riding that bike and breathing heavy with all those cars I think probably was in my mind. I was just like some. But he but, you know, he went out like he wanted to, like he was good, solid to the end. I think we had done a helicopter snowboarding trip to Chile the summer before.

So that was pretty. That was pretty great. Yeah. That's why. Yeah.

And I remember one of the guides, we were down there and one of the guides said how because he was huge snowboard and he'd go fakie, which is when you flip around and ride the reverse stance which you know, the kids go fakie, right. Yeah. Like not that eighty. You know, the 85 year old.

Yeah, yeah. It's like jackass like like Johnny Knoxville dressed up as a guy. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But but it's but it's actually the guy. Yeah yeah. Yeah.

So, so what do you, what did you take from that. I mean other than like he just never stopped. Yeah right. Well Rolling Stone gathers no moss you know, and a running car keeps running. So I think you know, I looked at Don as someone that that was a lover of life.

Like he was really like when you know, I remember, you know, we'd have dinner and he'd be like, this is the best dinner I've ever had.

And then a week later, he'd be over at the house. And this is the best I'd ever had. And he would be you know, his grandkids would send him some radical hardcore music and he'd be playing it in his Porche and stuff. And, you know, I mean, he was super, but that's that beginners. My goodness. Mine. Yeah.

Crazy beginner's mind and willing to I mean, when you're eighty something. You're still going to you're going to be pretty crusty in certain ways, you're you know, you're going to but but he was willing to subject himself to he'd always do new stuff. I could get him if I said, you know, I go, hey, you want to go dive with the sharks? Oh, yeah, sure. Great. Hey, you want to go skydiving?

Oh, yeah. Hey, you want to go sail on the Americans? Oh yeah. I mean, it's like I'd invite him on the most random stuff. He always said yes, unless he had some other plans already and and was willing to subject himself to that, to that, you know, that that learning curve and his name was actually Wild Man, which is the best part.

People that have become the wild man. I go, well, that's the thing. Like Donahue, wild man is just perfect. Perfect. You can't make it up. That's why I'm saying you can't make that stuff up. So for me, I think to know him, it was interesting because I've had friends that have passed away that I had remorse for. And Don, if one of the first guys that I had ever, I didn't feel bad about him, you know, I mean, of course, I miss him and we think about him all the time and talk about him.

But I didn't miss him like I had other friends because I. I didn't there was nothing I felt like that. No stone unturned, no stone that he was that was all good.

And he any any crescendoed like he wanted to he wanted to go out, you know, being the guy that you remember and not withering away. And I think so I think all of that. I think that it really it was it was like remorse.

There was like there was no remorse. There was no there is no. Which was pretty great.

I'm like, if I can live a life like that where people around you feel like there's nothing, you know, there's nothing more, OK, hey, you missed a couple of people you miss.

And of course, and some of the stuff that you leave behind, people that are hurt. But and that's that's going on. There's no way out, you know, without that happening.

But that guy lives on and lives on. What you do now with the with the poor guy. Right.

Lives on. Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me, you know, I always I get bored easily and I think you connected to the innovation and I don't I try to get out of these ruts.

I like to try to keep learning and getting taxed, you know, like getting taxation from the learning. You know, I told somebody when you every you know, when you learn something, how sorry are you? And then, you know, after you've done it for six months, how lessor are you? And when you've done it for a year, you're not even sore anymore. It's like the first time you run a mile, you're like you feel like you're broken.

And then then you got to run to and then pretty soon get a tan and then pretty soon you got to run fifty. It's like there's no you just have to keep building were. So I think there's something about that, about doing new things in the pool really came out of my disdain for like traditional swimming, like, you know, I'd be like the orca with the floppy fin. You put me in the pool and make me swim and I feel like I need, you know, I love in the ocean and mask and fins and, you know, seeing and and being moved.

And so, you know, a lot of my pool, the pool stuff really was a marriage between the gym and swimming. I like how could I marriage, you know, late weightlifting and swimming and which resulted in kind of a pretty you know, and then we throw in heat and ice and some other. Right. You know, other kind of exposure stuff and breath work and just always trying to change it up, just looking for, you know, looking, looking to make it new and and interesting and and and try to stay out of those ruts, you know, just those they're easy to get in.

And before you know it, you're, you know, the right, the bottom right. You can play around within the rut and think that you're innovating, but you're still very much in the rut. Like, that's something that I definitely plead guilty to, you know, and then I'll convince myself that I'm working on my weaknesses, but I'm really not. Yeah.

Because I really don't want to I don't want to work on the weaknesses because that sucks.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Because you're going to not feel good. No it's true. Yeah it's true. But but still. It all hearkens back to Hawaii because the original, you know, pool workout is Karen on the bottom, you know, running along the bottom of the ocean was something I've done.

It's not fucking easy.

Absolutely. Well, and and and ultimately, when you think about that dynamic of stone carrying and running, not a lot to do with swimming.

No, not at all. It has to do with breath holding and legs and legs burn the most oxygen. So whenever you incorporate dynamic leg in, you know, from the Monov in or anytime you're using getting the quads going, man, that the breathing, the breathing goes way up.

I mean, you look at long distance swimming is like, don't move the legs. Yeah. Dragon dragon. Dragon Bernado forward.

Yeah. Propulsion is worth the amount of energy expenditure. Exactly. Her legs. Exactly.

Unless you have some giant fins on. Right. And that's a different discipline. But but so that's so a lot of it came out of that. And then and then just first of all, being in the water back to the water. So we're back in the water. We're in the water breath holding fear of drowning. That stuff is really powerful. That's right there with falling and being burned and being eaten by giant animals. So whenever you deal with that kind of psychology about holding your breath underwater and you can't breathe underwater no matter who you are yet.

So that's a big psychology, right? That that what that what that environment represents.

And then you can be you know, you're in a pool at my house. So it's pretty controlled. So you can then we can kind of ratchet the the you know, there's some fear things that we can deal with in that environment that that, you know, and then compression, you know, we learn about compression, compression and blood flow through the lymphatic system that, you know, like in an hour your your body circulates the blood through it.

That normally takes like twenty four hours.

So you have some. Yeah. It's a different thing. Yeah. It's a different thing. And then you can be really aggressive. You know, I take some basketball guys and we do a bungee jumping work and all of a sudden they're there. Verticals increase and you can take a guy that probably shouldn't jump a lot because they're so giant. Yeah, but they can jump hundreds of times without all that impact.

Yeah. You remove that thing that's causing all the injuries, right. Government support of tissue around you directly. And it also exhausts you more than anything. I mean, there's something about whatever you're doing in the pool man. You will sleep well at night.

You will you know, I don't know what that's about, but, you know, I can go out and run for hours or ride my bike, but nothing makes me as tired as as being in the water.

Well, you I mean, listen, if they're saying a two and a half mile swims worth 125 mile bike and a twenty four mile run, that's they're telling you what the you know, the difficulty like you're saying like two two miles, two and a half miles is equivalent.

And these other things, I think a lot of it is temperature. Yeah. I think the temperature you going to regulate. Well yeah. Your water seven. Even the water seventy. It's still not ninety eight. That's 30 degree you know. Twenty eight degree temperature difference that over time that. So I think there's that and then there's psychology and then the breathing you know.

And it's, it's, but we love the we love the water work for that. And for us it correlates to our relationship with, you know, being in the big ocean and being in the big surf.

You can move. You know, one of my theories is that that you will gain technique out of necessity.

Right?

Because in order to swim a giant dumbbell across the pool, you're going to have to be efficient. Like, I don't care what your stroke looks like.

And I can get a stroke coach and be like, well, you should move your arm to do your thing.

I go, here's a dumbbell, swim it over there. Yeah. If you could swim that over there, you're doing something right. You're learning. You're you know you know, it's kind of like putting a giant pack on. You carry a huge bag and you take it off, probably going to be faster. You know, it's like. Yeah, yeah. When you add the survival aspect into it. Right. Yeah. I get to the other side somehow.

Exactly. And you're going to use all your limbs to do it. Anything you can to get there. Well, it's also it's still like there's not it's not like anybody else is doing this. Right. So it's so open ended in terms of like the innovation.

I'm sure it's amazing to me all the time. Right. It's amazing to me that it's not that they're not that it's not being applied had hasn't been applied. You know, it's like one of those things like you'd think that. I mean, I know from what you know, and we're always being creative now. We're starting to be able to kind of combine stuff. So we have a couple of different things that we put them together, make hybrids.

So like circuit training, like, you know, in weightlifting, you have all these different techniques and then you start to combine them and then you have yourself some new new you know, there's always a new program.

Yeah, you do. You make that you have like an app right there. We do. We do.

We make that available to people, but not the pool because the pool is so specialized. Yeah. You know, it's just the water is not something to go subject people to, but we don't. Yeah. Yeah exactly. Yeah. Like the pool we need.

I mean we, we, we, we are very selective about, we have trainers for expertise, you know, for the, for the.

Fitness stuff, but for the pulse, for specific training, we have very few people that we would that will license to become a device because of because of the water. Yes.

I can't stress this isn't something to fool around, especially when you have weight and then throw in, you know, a 200 degree sauna in between sets and a cold plunge. So it's like working gas protocols into the actual workout itself. Yeah, because you think of those as a post workout thing. Right. Or a pre workout thing.

But to drop that into the middle of the whole thing creates like a whole different kind of stress.

Yeah, we've been doing some interesting stuff, too, like because we're always looking for ways to, you know, it's like, you know, run a mile, run two miles. You have to keep making the thing longer because you get kind of better at it. You adapt. You know that we're such an adaptable creatures. We adapt quickly to things. So we shake it up. But, you know, one of the things that we've been doing, I mean, we put the we put the you know, we put the assault bikes in some of the other stuff in the sonas.

But we do one of these protocols where we do where we ride some sort of cardio assault rowing machine of something that boost your your cardio. And then we go into the ice plunge and we do we go back and forth between those.

And that just has a pretty profound effect on you, gives you a good hammering. But, you know, just when you think you always say just when you think it was safe to, you know, right. To do heat and ice and do the thing you got to, you know, you've got to do.

But we do what we just I guess we do that out of more out of our kind of our interests. You know, in our search, our discovery, it's more out of discovery, like, hey, what if you do this? Oh, let's try that and see. And a lot of it comes from that. It comes from that innocent, you know, that like that child like, you know, why are kids so good with certain things?

Like they get a they get a, you know, a phone and they're all of a sudden doing everything right because they just they don't just go, well, what if I I don't know if I should. And, you know, they just go in.

And I think that's I think that that's that's healthy. Right. Go about it.

Whatever you're doing, going it's like good chefs are. Oh, I didn't think that that curcumin would make that right. Right. Or whatever.

Just, you know, it's this and that's the same I think in innovation is really, again, a formula. It's like you can put it in whatever you're doing, it does it. I don't think there's I think the basic structure of it is the same no matter what no matter what genre you're in, just change the backdrop.

Like what he what he is it fitness, is it nutrition, is it is it sport? Is it art? Is it tech? Is it what is it.

It's like it's curiosity, willingness to try things that kind of remote taking failure off the table. Right. It's not about that. It's like we're just we're going to pull on these threads and see where it leads us for sure.

And failures and failures part of that process. Yeah, that's just your that's part of what you're doing.

That's so you're what are you. Fifty six now. Fifty six. Yeah. What like what are you like I'm 54, so, you know, it's like trying to figure out how to continue to stay fit, stay engaged, try new things. But are there certain things where you're like, oh, I can't do that anymore? I've noticed this about like how I'm aging. So I have to, you know, adjust like wear you out with all of that.

Well, most of the things I'm doing is not so measurement oriented. Don't have all those data stuff to use that against me.

Smart. Yeah, there's some of that. I don't have that. Well, I only ran that mile at a while. You know, I don't have all those numbers that would probably show some deterioration.

I mean, I just think it's so, so attuned with your own body, you know where you're at.

Yeah. You don't need all those things.

So a lot of it is, you know, I guess for me, a lot of it is I'm just not doing a lot of the same things that I've been doing.

And I'm more you know, a lot of my training really has been not to hurt myself because in the past, a lot of times you get your training injures you and then you're kind of like, oh, that's not great.

So lately it's been more about that, right?

It's a little bit more about OK. And. You know, I think the holistic thing is is become better at it, like I'm better at my my diet, my sleep, my workout, that's not hurting me.

My you know, so I'm in a way, I think, you know, whether my performances are, you know, I just don't I don't I don't have any real tangible measurements of, you know, hey, I'm not as fast up the hill. I mean, I know when I when I you know, if I go get my 18, you know, my 18 year old protege with me and I go up the hill and he kind of, you know, disappears, I'm like, well, I might not have this.

You know, I might not be back here. But when I was 18, let's just put it that way.

Say, is this this guy, Luka, that's even with you? Yeah. Yeah. I was hearing about this. Yeah. Yeah.

So he's a young, big, young, big wave rider rider. Yep. From Half Moon Bay. You just took him in. Well, yeah, I Gav's thought it would be good for me. You know, I'm in a house with all women so she, she, she, she, she met him and he was, he was, you know, young and full of testosterone and looking to be an aspiring it looks like he's an aspiring seal at this point.

And so he's aspiring to become a CEO. So I'm I have a lot of friends that are in the in the sea also that are out and in. And so I've been exposing him to that. So he has a better idea of what that will entail. He's a big wave surfer. He's a little bit of a throwback, pretty rare type of person in this day and age. He's he's kind of like, you know, like 1950s Kromagg Naaman like a little bit like this is his the way his mind works.

And and so he's been good. He's helps us. He helps, you know, helps us at our at our home with all the details because we have a lot, a lot of stuff going on when you have, you know, daughters and people and stuff and just and train.

He's really been with us to train. So he's he's been getting and it's been and it's been nice to to watch him implement kind of our our work and then see the result that it's had on him. And yeah, it's made him strong. So it's cool to see to watch him pull train and and, you know, do hikes with gap circuit, train pool train, do all this stuff, breath work and heat and ice and all that stuff and watch it, watch him kind of, you know, kind of benefit.

Seems like it's your way of paying forward what you received. Right. Like the. Yeah. You know, you've been the beneficiary of having, like, strong men in your life to be guiding forces from your step dad and Don and et cetera. Right. So you can do that for this kid. Yeah, well well, I think that's all.

What do they say to at a certain point after you, you know, march on the ladder? Maybe you either want to be a king or a wizard, right?

Or you want to be. You want to be. You want to whatever that looks like. But I mean and I don't mean a king in the same of. But you're just not one of the soldiers fighting in the thing and that you can be it's more about a wizard. I kind of like the you know, you're like the wizard and the guys come to see you. And I always thought that I was when I was young, I wanted to be like this like a, you know, a guy.

The way you go see the wizard, he's in the barn over there like you go. It's like that, though. You don't know. He's like Hillgrove. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You get to go see the wizard. Go visit the wizard. He's over there and you know, and not that I'm a wizard by any means, but but I do like that because I have been that right in my life.

I've been like, hey, Jerry Lopez, you know, like go to Jerry and Jerry, be there. And he he he's just ahead of you. He's lived more, done more. And then you go to him and try to get some insight.

And it's and it's good for me if I can bestow some some some knowledge that I've been that was bestowed on me that helped me go along my course.

I mean, I think, like you said, pay it back.

And I think that's I think at the end, I think that is really something that is that culturally we've lost. And it really goes back to, you know, the wise men that we you know, they're supposed to be the wise men. I'm not I'm definitely not me, not one of the wise men. But they're supposed to be these these people that you that you're supposed to look up to him. Right. They're supposed to be elders.

We revere them for their elderly. Knowledge is a fact which may be dismiss them and put them in a home. Exactly. Yeah.

And maybe maybe maybe that's just because they survived that maybe that the knowledge is that they just actually made it long enough to live that long. You say it like that might be it might not be anything tricky. It just might be, hey, you can't be. It's like Wildeman, you're not going to be around. Yeah. You think you're going to be around the world for eighty five years without getting some signs popping up.

And even if you can just observe the guy and be like the way he does stuff, maybe that's something that. Well that's Hawaiian to Hawaiian.

Hawaiian. Right. Hawaiian. Yeah. Which is, which is more tribal. Which is more of how we do that.

The way the structure of culture has been in the past is that you had to have you wanted to have some elders like the whatever the woman elder man elder elders that that.

That help the youth and because because I think that that's something that we're missing, I think the way we look at elders, we kind of let's just, like you said, put them over there out of our out of our sight. Let's not that's not and not realizing that there's a lot to be learned. And you see people that have admiration for their grandparents and they go there and with their I mean, there are those are special people, right?

Those are those are special people usually that have that that have. But also, you know, I always say because, you know, in Hawaii, we talk a lot about respect. Right? It's always about how you got to respect a you didn't respect me. Well, I always say, yeah, but you got to act respectfully, so act respectfully and then you get respected. So, you know, I think it's important that the elders act respectfully and then they can be respected.

But if the elders are not acting correctly, behaving, not behaving, then no, I'm just saying and that's part of the issue too. Them culturally right, is the elders aren't behaving correctly, then it's hard to respect them because you're like, well, you guys aren't even behaving correctly. So we're not going to but maybe they're not behaving well because they've been disrespected to to, you know. Exactly. Exactly. And we have lost that. I mean, I you know, I'm reminded of Julie, my my wife's father.

She grew up in Alaska. Yeah. He was an engineer. He moved the whole family up there. And he he was having the most success, like in the very late years of his life.

Like he got to the point he's like 89. He could barely see and he would keep getting hired on these jobs because the Native American culture respected him. And they're like, Wohlsen, we'll come and pick you up. We we need you and we want you there. Like he was the wise man. Right. And even though he's like, I should be retired, like he just couldn't quit. Yeah. And there's a great that about how great is that, that you're the most needed at the end of your life?

You know, we were talking because I was reading some Adlerian thing that I really enjoyed. And, you know, they were talking about that. Sometimes the value is just the presence. That the value is just the presence, that just being there is, it is the value because people value to the and I go, well, listen, the certain point, if the elderly can't do anything, just their presence that they're there, your grandma is there, your grandfather's there.

They're just they exist.

And that can be enough to be of value. Right, because they're talking about everybody being a value and you're like that their value. They're there. Yeah. Yeah. All right. I want to know you live with all these women I got I go to your daughters around. Yeah. You got to say to their older.

OK, they're great. Yeah, they were easy. Yeah. Girls, little complicated.

Trickier, complicated, you know, I guess because I've been going through different stages of it and. You know, I was describing my position is kind of like being a post in the house, like a giant post that holds the roof up, you just have to be there. You don't move. You hold the roof up so it doesn't fall down. And that's and that's your position. Everything's going around you. But you're just standing like that and you and they need you to be there stationary like that.

But but one thing about I mean, listen, the only thing I know is I don't know anything. I you know, I know nothing when it comes to I'm coming to appreciate that to the girls.

Yeah.

They're complex, like like and I think I think one also, too, it's it's a complex time, you know, on top of it. I think it's not it's not, you know, now the social pressures and I think so hard to be a teenage girl when you're and then it's and then it becomes 24/7.

It's not just when you go to school at school or when you go to the playground at the playground. It's not just at these places.

It's all day long every day. And I think that there's a lot of there's a lot of pressure on them, on them.

And, you know, I think I you know, for me, I feel like.

I try to lead by example and and and I'm pretty pretty I mean, it's all about honesty, like talking about, you know, I have a conversation with my youngest daughter about makeup and she's like, OK, maybe I want to get some makeup.

And I go, OK, well, you know why you're going to you want to put makeup on, right? And she goes, well, because it makes me feel good. I know you want to put makeup on to attract males like you want to.

You want to. You're trying to attract a male. And she's like, no, it makes me feel that I know what makes you feel good because because that you think it might help you be attractive.

That's part of why you're doing it.

So and it's I think it's even more complicated than that because she's on social media and she's seeing other girls her age doing that. Yeah. And you want to feel like you're part of that or you can fit in with that. And there's a there's like a self-esteem thing that. Yes. Is about, but it's about it. But it's also about signaling to the tribe and where you fit. Yeah.

That yeah. Yeah. No but that's, that's but that's the, that's the complexity of it. Right.

Is like hey you're doing this to fit in, to do it, to fit in with the girls, your other girls, to fit in, to be attractive because that's ultimately whether you're being attractive to the girls that fit in or not. I mean, that's all part of that pressure. I'm just saying to I just wondered I wanted her to understand that there was another motive than just her at her at the house. Right. For herself. Yeah.

It's not just for you. It's for you're doing it for other people.

So it's not easy, man.

No, I feel like kids either. Define themselves by trying to model the behavior or the example that you set and kind of covid approval that way, or they define themselves in opposition to who you are, like, I'm going to I'm going to just contravene everything that you're about to create some distance.

And maybe that's an attention thing. I don't know.

But I'm dealing with a little bit of that right now where it's like everything that we're about not interested.

And my my dad hates that. You have like your daughter is going to come to you and want to ask about life advice, like that's not happening.

Yeah, no, no, no, not quite. Trying to figure out what the right thing to do is. Yeah. You model you you set an example, you model the behavior, but you have to have a very loose relationship with. The results of that and you've got to be able to roll with stuff that like you didn't expect, when I have a feeling that you're not going to see the fruits of your of your work until they leave, that that that a lot of the seeds that you plant and a lot of the things that you do, you won't you won't you won't see.

You won't see until they go out of your house and they had there.

And then because those seeds, whatever it is that you planted, those are growing, but you can't see them. Right. And the thing that they're going to turn into is going to it's going to come after. It's going to come late. It's going to come I mean, I can speak for myself personally, like how that later in is like twenty five or something like.

Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then I have and then I have you know, 17 and 12. But, but it's like I think a lot of those fruits are going to come later on.

You're going to, it's going to be you know, they're going to you know, you wish you would get to, you know, reap the rewards of it. But there's none of that. There's none of that. There's none. There's none of that. There's none of that that's deferred for who knows how long. Who knows how long.

You just hope that the income that comes out. But, you know, I, I see it happen.

You know, where the girls will go. Well, you know, my one of my daughters will go be with some family and then they come back and the family be like, oh, she's so amazing, so helpful, so great.

And I'm like, well, like I know I have that was that we're talking about the same person.

Yeah, I know my my daughters hate to be, you know, like all the beach. I hate the beach. Hate surfing, I hate the beach. Hate working out. You're eating that. God set it up that way. Crazy. I can be your teacher. Yes. Yeah I have.

I have. Gabby doesn't like it when I say that but I'm like, yeah, I said your children were sent here to wear you out and so you can die and they can take over. And then she's like, oh yeah, that's yeah that's it. And then my other thing is I said, parenting is like building a samurai sword. You take the steel, you heat it up, you beat it with a hammer and you stick it in a bucket of ice and you just do that over and over it.

Eventually. It's the hardest steel in the world, I said, Perrini apparent. You take the kids, take you, they hit you up, they beat you with a hammer and they stick you in ice and they do it over and then you're tempered like when you're done perrini, you're going to be like you're going to be tempered. Either that or you're, you're oh you break break you or you break, you're done. Throw you back in the furnace.

Right.

So you've been you and Gabby been together for over twenty years.

Yeah. We're going to fire we're coming up on time. And you've kind of you've kind of modeled this relationship in a public facing way, which is interesting, you know, like the way the dynamic that you guys have figured out for yourself.

I think it's super inspiring in that. And, you know, my wife and I are we strive to do this ourselves is that, you know, you're both very independent people. You're not defining yourselves. You know, by you know what the other person, you're not relying upon each other to define who you are. Right? There's a there's a respect. You come together when you come together. It's quality. But you both have your kind of independent worlds and you provide the space for you guys to have those experiences.

And they're not loaded in the way that a lot of relationships are where it's like, yeah, I want you to be that guy who goes out and sort of big waves, but only on my terms. Right. And that's that's hard to get to that place. Yeah.

Yeah. I you know, I think both Gabby and I, probably our childhoods, the relationships that we saw around us growing up or the lack of, you know, one of the two, I think that that had a big influence on us. You know, I, I, I know that, you know, we talk about, you know, each of us are responsible for our own happiness.

You know, that that that I'll go get happy. You go get happy. And then when you're happy and I'm happy, you come back and we'll both be happy together kind of thing.

Like not not putting the pressure of, you know, I'm fortunate that she's that she has has is, you know, and she I guess she and she could say she's she's fortunate that I'm completely, you know, a fan of Gabby. You know, Gabby's in her corner and support her in things that at times probably I wasn't exactly stoked about.

But but it was more important that it was more important for me to to to be supportive of her than it was for me to vote my my opinion or my feelings about it. I think that was a big piece of it that I would always and she's amazing that she doesn't ever put the like any of my my passion or my my my draw as something against her.

It's not taking away from her as something like, oh, you but it's taken away from her.

And so, you know, I, I. The combination. But we you know, I it's funny because we were you know, we've talked about this before in the past, that it's like her. And I think we have enough we're scared enough of each other that we're like, it's a Cold War, you know, it's a cold. We have a Cold War. We're just we know that we both have nukes. We both could drop them.

Right. It won't be good. You could die from the disease. It's sheer destruction for everybody. No matter who fires. Let's not fire and keep that. And so I think that's been, you know, and we've had or we've had our you know, we've had our ups and downs like every relationship and every effort. And I think I mean, every it takes effort in the relationship to to to make it.

But but, you know, they did a study with 10000 couples and they said that the only thing that was consistent amongst all successful couples, no matter what the dynamics were, was that the man respected the woman. And so for me, that was you know, I have a ton of respect for Gabby as a person and and then and then as a woman and then as a mom and as, you know, just all of her as a person.

And so and I had and I also had a great relationship.

My mother and I had a lot of respect for my mom. My mom was a hardworking lady and, you know, raised some children and some men, too.

And so I you know, I have that I think that that that and I can I don't think any that any just any guy could be with Gabby.

I mean, men have a hard time sometimes with women that are strong because they just they either she or she says she's pretty alpha. I would think that she checks the alpha box. Yeah. You know, many a category in your relationship. Yeah. Which is. And which is you're more that you can be more of the teddy bear. Yeah. Affectionate guy. Yes. Mystikal. Yeah.

Well you call me in when it's like when, when the when you need some real dirty work done you know, you know mean when the toilet breaks you call me or I get it when there's a bear outside or you know like. Right.

She's I mean she's a force of energy. Yeah. She walks into a room. Yeah. You've got to reckon with that. That's what I mean. Yeah.

Yeah. Well it's great. I think, I think, I don't think I would be able to respect her if she wasn't.

I don't think I think that that's her power. Yeah. If she didn't have that I would be, it would, I mean I would respect her but it wouldn't be the same like like like I do. Yeah.

I want to talk about lairds superfood. OK, so you like you guys just took this company public, right. I did. I saw pictures of you like ringing the bell at the stock exchange and it's just like a fish out of water thing. Hard to believe. I know. Hard to believe.

I actually got to ring the bell for a wild man when he went Ballies, where they. Oh, wow. But so I was able to but I had nothing to do with it. This is a whole different thing.

This has got this has got my name on it and. Right.

And the fact that we were in a position that the business has been, you know, built like it has been and run like it has been, is the only reason why we were able to go public.

So that that was a and that was that was an education. So I was I was in I was in go public. It's no small thing. School. Yeah, that that's it.

Well, just the whole process is it is amazingly elaborate, complicated. Like it's a complicated I wonder how come as many companies do I like given all there is to do and and the details and I mean we're fortunate enough to have great people that that that was you know.

Yeah. That was taking care of it. I mean, obviously it suits you perfectly because it's so part and parcel of your ethos. It's really just a manifestation of you and your lifestyle.

It's the I that's the irony. Yeah, I'm just saying that's the irony.

What's that weird thing like? You know, you you you mature into something that you're not really like the idea that you're in New York City at all. Yeah, I know you spent a year there when you were a kid, but like, that's oil and water.

Yeah, but when I look back over the course of your career, like you're somebody who's done lots of deals and had licensing and you've had this product and that product and some of them work, some of them didn't work.

And I've always looked at it at an arm's length from a distance and not really knowing anything, thinking like he just needs to get with the right partners because this guy's got so much to offer and maybe he's not partnering with the right people. So I look at large superfood. I clearly he's with the right people and this is working.

And it's like to me it feels like long overdue that you feel like this like a long time ago.

I appreciate that. You know, again, it's all about timing. I think the timing of it, I think it's you know, I mean, it's like anything you I might not have been in a position to appreciate it like I am now. Right. You know, it was earlier or and maybe it wouldn't have wouldn't be what it is if it if it hadn't. So I think that's a big piece of it. It's like the timing of it.

I if I if I had to say, hey, when you know, you get to choose whatever it was going to happen, the way it's happened in the. And and the truth is, you know, Gabby and I talked about this before, you know, we've been very cautious about who we align ourselves with throughout our careers and just about what brands and is it reflective of our brand and all those kind of things. And the truth is that we had to, you know, ultimately build a brand that was reflective of our brand.

That was and I mean, that's that's and and they were that we were able to.

But but that's the truth.

The truth is, is that you want to do it, right? Yeah. Do it yourself.

Well, we just because there is no one there is no business that we could think of that really, truly reflect reflected our, you know, our brand like like like this does because it is our brand.

So it's so I think that's a big that's a big piece of it.

And, you know, and again, I always look at ideas like all ideas and, you know, in superfoods, one of them that because everybody's everywhere.

We're all so caught up in money.

It's all about monitary. Right. And how much that and all that stuff. But I always think that it's about ideas. Right. And so if you think about. How big is an idea? Right. Well, let's just say, how big is the idea of Facebook? Pretty big idea. Is this an idea? What was the idea? Well, I'm going to connect people and the thing. And then you got Facebook, right? So how big is any any of these these these how big is you know, how big an idea is the Apple phone or how big an idea is?

You know, stand up paddling in my little world or how big an idea is, you know, whatever the idea is and the other stuff comes later.

But but the the idea itself, you know, what is that like? What is that? What is the nucleus of the idea?

And I think that's the you know, the ideas potential. Right. So with this, the idea is how do I get people eating better? How do I get people eating healthy? How do people excited about eating healthy?

Please, how do I get stuff in people's diet that aren't like people out there that aren't eating well, like don't even don't even have an opportunity to even understand what I mean?

Well, is or never heard of tumeric which by the way I mean. Yeah. Fresh tomatoes and Quine ever. You know what I mean. I'm just saying like they don't have any, they don't have any idea or the resources or the availability or all those things. So I think that's so it's really about that I about that idea.

And I think, you know, it's in our nature, especially Hawaii, where Aloha is really about helping, about sharing, like it's a sharing culture. I mean, we have other things about it. But one of the things that that I was gifted when I was a kid was that I was shared with, you know, that you that there was a lot of aloha that Aloha is sharing. I know. And yeah. And Ohana. Exactly.

So the but I think I think I think how you know, I think it's it's about ideas at the end that all of this stuff is about ideas and then what you know, and then seeing how big the idea is. What's the potential of an idea of an ideas like I mean, everything we have going on right now, every company that you see, I mean, our country, just everything everything's about ideas and the potential of what they can be.

And then, you know, trying to maximize how big how you know, it's like the idea of Toine. Now you have Nazare. It's like. Right. Things just appear to reflect a concept.

So but yeah, it's a trap.

And so in this case, though, you're not going into an office and managing people. Right?

Well, that's not my that's not my skill set that I have formulated. I have a I have a partner.

Right. Who who who does that very well. So he he that's his his his gift that we have and we're attracting where we attract good people. Like we just it's the you know how that is. I have a I think I used to tell Gaby a thing called a honey line, which is, you know, when you see a bee, you follow the bee and then another bee and then pretty soon you're at the hive. And that's where the money is.

It's like so good people attract good people. So we have you know, we have we're attracting really good people. You know, the the majority of what I'm involved in is is just, of course, always products like what what we're and then marketing, because it's what we it's what we've done. Gavin, I've been marketing for our careers. We have to be self self marketing because our platforms were so tiny. You know, we talk about our the size of our platforms have been so, you know, volleyball and surfing.

I mean, those are little platforms.

And so you got to be pretty creative to survive in those. You know, it's not like, you know, NBA or NFL where you just know it's different now.

But you but you both transcend those subcultures like your you know, you can both go by your first name, people who you are and you stand for an idea that's much larger than your sport. Yeah.

And what we've been fortunate to be able to do that, too. Right. So it's a combination that, you know, I tell young athletes all the time, I go, hey, listen, if you if you. It's important for you to know how to talk. It's important for you to know how to behave in public. In a way, it'll bring you a lot more opportunities because you can be great a great athlete.

But if you can't talk and you don't know how to act, you're going to have a you're going to have a limited potentia and you can actually be not as good and have and be well-spoken and know how to conduct yourself. And you'll have you'll have a pretty good you know, you'll have a better opportunity to actually, you know, make a living from it.

I think young athletes intuitively understand that because it's not about social media and developing this platform. Right. Like it's not just, oh, I'm on this team to understand. They have to take responsibility for their career trajectory and they could be riding the bench and and become the most popular or important player because they've figured out how to get people to care about what they have to say.

But they're also seeing the train wrecks, too. Yeah, they're also seeing train wrecks, too.

So they're saying they're seeing that both they're seeing that instantaneous failure of greatness and then they're seeing the success of subpar. Right. So you're seeing both.

So they're having there's a there's a you know, they're getting a pretty good spectrum of, you know what what not doing it right or what doing it right looks like.

So there, you know, because we're at the end, we always talk about monkey see, monkey do.

Right. We're the that's what humans are. We we when you see it, it's hard to be the monkey that doesn't see and does that's the that's always the trick. But inevitably, you know, there's what do we say.

There's nothing new, just a new application of an old idea. So they think you're the first person to ever think of something or do something. I always find that pretty arrogant because it's like, no, that's not honest Moniz's. There's it's probably a combination of, you know, something or some other thing that's been done in some way.

And then you're just making a hybrid and combining it and you know, yeah, that's building from it.

On that note, you being the wizard and all these people making this pilgrimage to your house for the full work out, that seems there's an aspect of it.

I mean, there's some interesting cats that roll through that. Right. And I would suspect that that's its own Manhattan Project. Right. Like, you have a lot of really compelling people doing interesting things in the world that you're spending quality time with. Pretty amazing. I would suspect you've learned quite a bit from this cast of characters.

What does that look like for you?

Pretty amazing. Pretty amazing. You know, sometimes Gabby, you know, shakes her head, whether it's, you know, I mean, we you know, I reading something or some book or something. And then this next week, hey, so-and-so wants to bring Such-and-such, the guy that wrote that book or you know this.

So we get a lot of that, you know, we get a lot of that, a lot of that.

But, you know, I feel like again, the honey line or even in nature when you're observant, then you get to observe more. I think when you're interested in in these subjects and you're you're interested in health and wellness and you're interested in fitness and you're interested in longevity and you're interested in performance and you're interested in morality and whatever, I mean, you're just interested in these things in your and your and you're meeting people that are interested. You know, there's David Sinclair showing up there and then they know somebody that knows somebody.

And then you have those guys.

And then so so we we we get you know, the truth is we get a really amazing array and diverse from generals to to, you know, athletes to to to perform as people, to doctors, you know, I mean, we get mathematicians.

I mean, we just get it's like the spectrum. Because what you realize is that that. It doesn't you know, I always tell I always say to people, I go, listen, being a server is like being alcoholic. Everybody's one. It's just whether you drink or not. Everybody everybody's a surfer, just whether you surf or not.

So. Well, and what I'm saying is, is that everybody there's somebody in every field that's into health and wellness and and learning and and creativity. Right. And no matter what field they can be, lawyer, doctor, the, you know, politics, whatever they are. But they're so that's you're what you have in common. And so once you start meeting those people and then you got you know, you got your friend Rick Rubin and he's he knows things like, hey, you want to meet this professor of science.

Right. Right. Sure. No, I go down to his house. I mean, the guy and then the guy goes, oh, yeah, I have another guy. And he said, and then before, you know, you're like all of a sudden you you know, I mean, the world is tiny.

When you don't know anybody, when you know people, it's it's like it's it's it's your niche. The next door. It's the next room. It's like it's even smaller. So when you don't know anybody, it's small. When you know people, it just becomes especially like minded people. Right. So when you have all these you know, when you have all these smart people that that.

Are are interested because what you realize, the common denominator in all those that group learning, they're all want to learn, they're all interested because all the smart people are are people that learn.

That's what they do. That's why they're smart, because they're always learning and like, hey, what's this?

What's that? You're doing that. Oh, yeah. OK, well, you know, and you just see that and that. And that's that seems to be the common thread, right? It's like you never want to you never want absolutes and you don't want anybody that thinks they know. Soon as a guy says, oh, I know you're like, right. Yeah, that's not the guy.

Sure. You've had the guy who shows up who's full of vim and vigor. And we give those kids a dick measuring contest. I get those agap take them out, then she takes em in the deep end. And, you know, we first we give we first, you know, Gabby, a girl, a woman takes him over. So then they think, oh, yeah, I'll have a real fighting chance, not realizing that, you know, she was raised by Dolphins' until it's over.

So but yeah, you know, we I mean, I think it's like Amir, you know, he's like Amir. If the guy comes with with, you know, a little edge, just give him an edge.

Right. He's good. He's going to get what he came for, for sure. We won't we won't let you down. Cool, man.

Well, I want to be respectful of your time. Yeah. And and let you go here.

But maybe before we do that, given your unique skill set and life experiences and adventures and everything that you've, you know, experienced your whole life, you have a unique lens on the world.

Like when you look at how most people live their lives, it's very different from how you live your life and, you know, being conscious of the fact that.

Most people don't have the luxury of being involved in the kind of things that that you are.

What do you like what's the what's the advice like if you could just reach your hand out to the average Joe who's, you know, doing the normal thing of, you know, working a job and paying the bills and raising the two kids, like, what is it that you want that person to understand about life that perhaps they're myopic to or can't see?

Well, that's a that's a that's a very tough thing. You know, I have a friend call me the other day and and, you know, and obviously the the time that we're in is a heavy time right now. And and some people, it's real hard on in some people it's not as hard on, but it's a real kind of time of uncertainty. Right. Where which they always are. But this one is overtly uncertain. Right. This is very overtly uncertain.

And he said, you know.

You know what? You know, he just asked for some advice and I'm like, I'm not in a position to give advice, but but I but I said, you know, I did say, you know, be honest. Work hard. And try to have fun, like, you know, like but but I think there's something about remembering that there's still these foundation things about, you know, it's important to be honest. You just got to be honest.

We all have to be honest, honest, honest.

I think honesty in relationships and friendships, in work and in life, I think there's, you know, in just all the things I think that that's and work hard.

I think we got to I think there's no way to I wish there was a way to to to, you know, I mean, to work hard.

You know, I always Wildeman and I used to laugh because he was retired since he was 50. And but if the amount of work he did every day compared to people that work, you couldn't even begin. And then also you got to have empathy for the people that you know, that everybody's got a burden. Right. So everybody has a burden. And I think we have to be conscious that we've got to, you know, lately have been trying to operate more with more tolerance and more kind of, you know, just more and more just be aware that that there's people are under a big thing.

But we and you got to go. You got to figure out how to have fun.

You got to have fun. If we don't have fun, it's it's all it's it's not it's not worth it. It's like like I said to say, go surfing but I meant like this. Do they do something that brings you some sort of enjoyment, your version of.

Yeah. Whatever that. Yeah it's there and everybody has their, their, their thing. And I think you know, I think to you know, when we're, if we just can focus on the you know, it's kind of like I mean, you know this better than anybody. You know how when it's far, what do you do and you're just looking at the next step, you just keeping your eye, you're not looking at the distance and going, man, that that mountain's far away.

You just look down and you just keep keep keep your feet going. And before you know it, you're like, wow, I'm at the mountain now. But if you're looking and I think that's a big piece of it, I think right now just. Yeah, I mean, it's enough to try to just, you know, live sufficiently today. It's enough effort to just work today, do what you need to do today, take care of your family, the people you love today, just keep your head down and that.

And I think that a lot of the stuff that I think less of the stuff will bother you. And then a lot of the stuff will be behind the will go behind.

It's hard, though, when the pressure's on and you're putting that one foot in front of the other to feel like you can indulge yourself with pleasure, having fun.

I know that. And that's where that's why there's a balance aspect to it. I think that that's where you're looking. That's the balance of it. Right. Because all that all that stuff, you know, and I don't I mean, that's why people are, you know, going to bars is because they're trying to get that release.

But you just have to figure out a way to get that release that's that's productive, not destructive. And so if you can just because that's the balance, the equilibrium, because if all work and no play makes Johnny a dull boy, it's just not getting you just can't you have to figure out what that is, whatever that you know, I mean, some people can be as simple as just going to a movie. So they just get to leave there somewhere.

You know, you do meditate, meditate, do some breath, work.

And I mean, you'd go for a swim, go for a bike, go for a thing, go for a hike, go in the sauna and, you know, boil your brain's going to ice up and freeze your soul.

Something something, something does something to create some sort of knock you out of there.

Yeah. A little bit. Yeah.

Just to create a little bit of tilt on the on the other side because because all these other stresses are just going to. They're just pulling up. They're pulling us down you know.

Yeah. Yeah I get that. All right, last thing, what's the, the wave that's still remains on surf. Like the metaphorical wave, like what's still out there that you're thinking about right now. And you're you're laying brick by brick that maybe we're not going to see it for five years, but it's on the brain.

Well. I I'm definitely have a project to go out and go out into some sort of some sort of, you know, stuff you see on, you know, National Geographic when the ships going into the big, you know, whether it's down in the roaring 40s or up in the North Atlantic or out in the Aleutians, but some project to go out into the big ocean and ride ride the big ocean out at sea.

So that's something that's in my head. And I'm working as any records on that?

No. No, I don't. Probably they probably shouldn't want to.

Yeah, just like in the middle of the ocean. Yeah. Why would you need the infrastructure? You know, you can just be out there by yourself. Wow.

You're going to need the right people and the right pieces. But that's something that I've been thinking about that I'd like to I'd like to try to at least do that. That's pretty cool. I was just there. It's a it's something there to be done.

That'll be I have a feeling it'll be something special when that happens.

Yeah, it's perfect. Man All right, you're out.

And all the Sociales right there superfood. Talk to the smart people. Yeah. Are you guys in Whole Foods? Yeah, you are right. Yeah. Nationwide. Yep. That stuff. Yeah. We're good. I appreciate that. It's all plant based.

Yeah. It's good stuff. Yeah. Non GMO. Yeah. Just the pure simple.

Right. You got to love it when you just see all cream four or five ingredients. Yeah I love that. Yeah.

I've got a beautiful beautiful protein right now. Protein powder. We have a protein powder. Yeah. Yeah I'm enjoying it. OK good. I got sent me a bunch of stuff. OK. Yeah. See I don't know anything I like. I'm on the. You need to know.

I don't need to know basis. Exactly. Yeah. They don't want to get don't want to get married. We need you to go to the bell. Yeah. Yeah exactly. Get in here, ring the bell and they call me. Listen I'm like that. I do.

Well like in disaster type stuff like call it the flood. Call them in the fire. Call the fire. You know they call it call me in for the call me in for the you know, the big story. Otherwise you'll be you'll be found.

She'll be preparing to be able to be ready so that I get when I get called in I can do it. There's always that, you know, it's like the fire department, you know, it's going to happen. But you just got to.

Right. You got to train all the time with the idea that there's not happening right now. But it could any second, maybe tomorrow, next week or next year. Cool. All right, man. Thank you. All right. Come back and talk to me again sometime. I look forward to it. This. I'd say that was fairly epic, you know, I think is a word that is horribly overused in my opinion, but I think in this case, I think it's appropriate.

That was truly epic.

Be sure to give Leor to follow on the Sociales at Laird Hamilton Surf on Instagram and at Laird Life on Twitter. Check out his New York Times best seller, Force of Nature, and you could find all his plant based nutritional awesomeness at Lairds Superfood Dotcom. I'm enjoying his Marcha at the moment, also his Ranu plant based protein. This is not a sponsored thing. I'm just really digging those products. Reminder that my new book, Voicing Change is now shipping globally.

I'll even sign it. And it's available only at Rich Roll Dotcom Slash v.C. And if you're looking to dial up your plate, the plant power meal planner is where it's at thousands of customized plant based recipes at your fingertips with access to nutrition, coaches' seven days a week, all integrated with grocery delivery right now running a special deal. Twenty dollars off gift cards when you go to meals. Dautrich Roll Dotcom now through December 25th. If you'd like to support our work here on the show, subscribe rate and comment on it on Apple podcast, on Spotify and on YouTube, share the show or your favorite episodes with friends or on social media and you could support us on Patrón on it rich roll dot com slash donate.

Today show was produced and engineered by Jason Caramello. The video edition of the show was created by Blake Curtis, graphics by Jessica Myranda, portraits by Ali Rogers sponsored relationships are managed by DKA, David Kahn and theme music as always by my boys Tyler Tripa and Hari. Appreciate the love you guys. See you back here shortly. Soon, a couple of days. Until then, get outside, engage with nature, get outside your comfort zone, love the people in your environment and be well.

Peace, Lance.