I walked away from the sport because I was tired of the politics and the feelings that I got about my worth as a human being and my body and like, it was so exhausting to always feel like I was like an object or a project or something. I couldn't figure out how to find my love for it again. So, like, why not just run away? And I want to keep trying and forcing this if I'm just going to feel angry at it.

And that was my reason for stopping. I was tired. I was tired of what was going on. I was tired of feeling like I was just like I said, this object or this project or not enough or needed to be somebody for these coaches or these people. I just like wanted to be. And it was such a powerful feeling within me that I was just so tired of that. And so I just ran away, you know? So I sort of view my purpose in life as being able to heal so the next generations can continue to heal, regardless of if I have my own children or not.

Like that's my whole mission is how can you create space for people to know that they're able to be whatever they can be, if they can really work on healing their mind in their body together? It's possible. That's Caroline Berkel, and this is Episode five 65 of the Ritual podcast. The Rich Roll podcast, everybody, welcome to the podcast.

Needless to say, I am the first to admit it has been way too long since we've had some powerful female energy on the show. So today we fix that courtesy of my buddy Burk's, who you will soon discover has far more to offer than her admittedly impressive Olympic biography might suggest. But first, a quick reminder that we're running a special holiday deal on the planet. Our meal plan, our stocking stuffer, gift cards, just a great way to help graciously and conveniently ease your loved ones towards cooking and eating healthier.

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Caroline is a twenty three time all-American. She's a two time NCUA champion. In 2008, she was named Nc2, a female swimmer of the year, mainly because she broke Janet Evans, legendary NC to a record in the 500 free, which at the time was the oldest record on the books. And Caroline would then go on to win a bronze medal in the four by 200 free relay at the Beijing Olympics. More interesting, however, and I think highly relatable is her life post swimming.

So this is a conversation about her athletic career, of course, the psychological struggles that she faced as a prodigious athlete, her battle with depression and her familiar addiction to people pleasing something that I personally very much relate to. But it's also an expose on the harmful paradigms perpetuated in athletic institutions and what we must do to better support the next generation of Olympians. But more than anything, this exchange is a playbook, a playbook on how to find power in.

Vulnerability, how to listen to your body and ultimately how to use your voice breaks and I are buddies going way back several years, she is both a powerhouse as well as a humble empath. Her energy is super infectious. And I'm honored to share her story with you today. May her words inspire you to find your own truth and to never stop learning.

So without further ado, this is me and Caroline Birchall. Burkel, you're in the house. Hey, dude, it took a minute to find out then, I think for a reason. Yeah, I did well, for a reason. Yeah, well, we met was it like five years ago at this point at that mind body green thing.

Dude, I saw that picture the other day. It popped up in my reminders or whatever thing.

Yeah.

What year it might have been 20, 15, 16 maybe to send a jack.

Right. And it was I remember specifically, I was like, dude, you know, I know the same person, you know?

And it was like this moment where. Well, it wasn't a selfie. It wasn't the kind of conference where you expect to run into swimmers, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't know who you were. And then we met. We immediately hit it off. That was super fun to establish that we both were friends with Jack Roach and this beautiful mentor in the swimming community, you know, this amazing human being who I know means so much to you and is a more recent friend of mine, but somebody who I care deeply about. So that was like our our our meeting point. Our meet.

Cute. Yes. And then we became friends ever since. And I think the last time I saw you was that up in Tahoe and we did that training camp. Yes. So it's been a couple of years. That was twenty seventeen.

There's a reason for that on my own. But but here's the thing. The minute I met you, I was like, this girl's legit.

Like, she would be great for the podcast, but she's dealing with a few things.

I think I'll let her bake for a little while. Yeah, I needed to let me a few things out, and I'm glad that I did, like you said, these things, you know, that timing is important. And I think the time for this is perfect right now. I think had we done it a couple of years earlier, it would be a very different conversation, very different.

Half of the things wouldn't have I would have never been aware of half of the things that I would want to talk about.

I wouldn't even have been in my consciousness like it would have been buried seven layers deep. Yeah, yeah. Wait, maybe I could have teased it out of you. Yeah, I would have been like, sobbing but now you're you're, you know, fully embracing this growth trajectory that you've been on. And I think what's unique and interesting about you, as somebody who has hosted several conversations with Olympians over the years and plenty of Olympic swimmers, most of those conversations are rooted in the Olympic experience itself.

And we're going to talk about that with you, of course. But what's most interesting about your story is the aftermath of that and the kind of growth that you've experienced and the issues that you've wrestled with, you know, post career to become this more actualized human being.

Yeah, it's been a ride. Yeah. When I think back, I was actually listening to your podcast with John Moffitt Sunday morning. Mm hmm.

Oh, my God. I was just I was walking I was on my, like, power walk for five, six miles cause I'm trying to get some foot time in right now, like trying to get back to running still. Yeah. It's like five year journey back to running. And I was listening to that podcast with him and it was just speaking to me because he was like, I don't even remember that person. Right. I don't even remember the person that competed in the games.

I remember this other person that was, you know, afterward and the feelings that I had and the emotions that went through this process to transition.

And I felt so thin. Right. I feel see, I'm not the only person that feels like I just don't identify with that one. Yeah, I know. Olympic name in my life. That wasn't just it for me. Right. And I feel selfish.

I feel selfish saying that was admittedly right now I feel selfish thing because you feel like it's such a gift to have had that Olympic experience. And with that there's some responsibility that you shoulder to communicate about it in a certain way.

Yeah, because here I am. Thirty four, I run a business of Olympic and professional athletes that give back to the next generation, and I have shame associated with being an Olympian.

So, you know, it's like this, this pull of both directions. It's like you need to be there and you need to be really proud of it.

But you also like had this experience with it and you're not really wanting to claim and own some of that experience. And so how can you settle in the middle of that?

Like, what is that about? Like where does the shame emanate from? Hmm. Where you want to start? Yeah.

Let's start at the beginning. We go all the way back to the beginning. We can go back to the quarry pool in Kentucky. Did you ever swim there?

I haven't, but it's on my bucket list. I love, you know, outdoor pools like that. I was in Austin a few weeks ago and I thought, you know, Springs. I just. Yeah. And when I was in Australia, swimming at icebergs every day, like, I love those who are so jealous.

And you're there to answer to to sort of say the the first thing first about the shame with being an Olympian and the shame, you know, why is it that so difficult to say that you have that if you're also.

To hold this image that you're proud of, it is that. I have this concept in my mind that I cannot have both. I cannot have a feeling about being a lesbian that's negative and also the feeling about being a lesbian that's positive.

I have been raised. So you default to the negative.

Yeah, I'm sure you very well know that. I know you well. I feel like I'm not being an Olympian. I can't own that aspect of it.

But the feeling of, you know, how could I be so. Proud of it and also have so much trauma and shame associated with the same thing. Mm hmm. Like, how are both of those things possible? Mm hmm. And I grew up growing up.

I didn't think I could have two feelings. It was you had to have one feeling and it needs to be this and you need to follow that.

Like you're not allowed to have multiple opinions and feelings and and or perhaps the shame is a result of not feeling the way that you feel like you're supposed to feel about that experience, right?

Yeah, because that's what hasn't been ingrained, is that that is just. That's it. Mm. You've got to feel really good about that.

But you know how lucky you are.

OK, so shall we start there because that is something I've been unpacking a lot over the past couple of years is.

Growing up, I grew up in this amazing pool, this great city, this wonderful family, it was it was wonderful. But the society that I grew up in in Louisville was very much you should be very grateful for what you have.

Don't question it, this is the way it is, this is who you are and you know, and I and I grew up in this mindset of, well, I have I can't have a darn bad feeling to save my life, because if I have a bad feeling or if I have a negative feeling or thought or emotion that comes up, then I'm a bad person. My character is bad.

Does that come from the parents, the parental units, or where does that idea germinate from?

It comes from several avenues. I grew up in a very strict Catholic school system, so I don't church three times a week.

Oh my goodness. I mean, so church three times a week, you know.

And if I don't want to, like, talk poorly about the system that it was, but I always felt like I was so different than everybody there in the first place.

So I grew up in this place where everyone's telling me what to do and how to do it.

And I didn't like that. I didn't like that feeling of why do I have to think one way? You know, so it originated there.

This I have to please. I can't have my own thoughts and opinions and emotions. I can't have more than one feeling. And it needs to be positive or else people will be upset with me.

And so that whole thing that I've been unpacking was sort of a pattern that I continue to follow throughout my career in my life.

Your brother doesn't seem to harbor that, though, interestingly enough, not as much. Yeah.

So part of that perhaps is because you were a girl.

Mm hmm. My father was tough. Yeah. Yeah.

So your parents were both athletes. Your dad owned all these, like fitness clubs. Right? Tennis, tennis and swim clubs, tennis. And so it was a very active ensemble. Yeah. So he swam for you of all.

He swam for Lakeside. He was like Maritz teammate. And Marrett grew up together.

She would kick his ass the whole thing, you know, so so Mariachi's got to be like a huge looming presence and, you know, in the swimming kind of law of Kentucky. Right. She's amazing for people that don't know. I mean, she dominated Butterfly for years and set world records that at the time just seemed untouchable. Oh, my gosh.

Madame Butterfly. Yeah. I mean, her stories, the stories just of her practice with her lungs collapsing and her finishing 10 500 butterfly.

Huh? It's insane. I'm like, what, your your lungs collapsed and you finished 10, 500 butterfly. Like, what are you dogged about?

So, you know, she was a legend there and it was a gift to swim for Lakeside.

You know, it was like, you're lucky you're in this space where you're in this outdoor rock quarry pool.

You should be so lucky and. So, yeah, so my dad on these fitness clubs, my mom is a tennis player, so she played professional top pro and her whole mindset is she's from here, she's from California. So she's just like, whoo!

Like, you know, you do you like I'm a do me like her whole deal is very open mind free mind.

Like, she's just very spirited and my dad is very strict and, you know, dogmatic and follows the rules. And so the combo of them I think was confusing for me as a child because I felt this pull to like, please, but then also like, you can do whatever you want, but you want please, you can do whatever you want and be whoever you want.

And but a little bit of each of those is probably good. Absolutely. Absolutely. And they also, you know, grew up in really tough environments themselves. So like knowing where they came from and what their background is makes a whole lot of sense.

So that's sort of where all this originated, right. Is in this space as a child, how could I have had more than one feeling? Mm hmm. And not really like I had to please, but that came from everywhere.

Well, the people pleasing comes into play in a big way. Later down the line, we're going to work our way up to that.

But at this early age, was it that was there an expectation like you're going to be this athlete or it was just it was kind of the atmosphere that you were in, right.

It was just an active environment. And you were just by dint of being your parents kid, like around a swimming pool all the time.

Yeah. So they drop us off at eight a.m., pick us up at nine p.m. when it closed.

We were at the pool all day long. I mean, totally unsupervised, just running around like pool rats.

Clark was competing with every eighteen year old as a nine year old.

So like, let's compete, you know, let's do this. I was not that way really. I had a very.

More of a calm demeanor with competition, like I didn't really I wasn't really like a savage competitor, I didn't really have this, like, I'm going to do this and win and like, I need to train, you know, 20 hours a day.

And I had this, like, I want to be around my friends. And I enjoy the social aspect of it. And I really like this feeling of being a part of a team and a community.

And my suit's cute and, you know, all of these different things that I could experience as a young girl that felt like I was just free to be me in that space, like I could just be me.

That's so interesting because that's atypical of somebody who excels at the highest level. Right. Like your have this kind of freewheeling approach to the whole thing.

Was the talent immediately evident from the beginning or did that how did you grow into that aspect of being a true competitor?

I had a lot of talent as a young girl. I had a lot of natural, just fluid talent. I was not a workhorse. I was a racehorse. So, you know, I didn't perform in practice.

So when people would see me as a little girl, they would have never guessed that I was really good because I was dog last and practice all the time.

But then you'd get up on the blocks from the race and win.

Yeah, I had something innate within me that I could click on and off very well.

I didn't have to show that or prove that to people. I didn't feel the need to do that. Swimming felt like this artistic expression or something internal that I could do that felt.

Like for one time in my day or in my life or in my week, I could feel free and that I didn't have to do it for anybody else.

That's a very 20-20 relationship to sport, but not a very 1995 relationship to sport.

But that's why I felt so outcast with it. Like nobody understood me.

There wasn't a meet that went by as a child in high school and college to where I really felt seen for how I performed and the way that I trained in the way that I saw my relationship with the sport.

I wasn't obsessed with times. I wasn't obsessed with stats. I didn't know any of that. My brother was that right.

My brother was like, boom, boom, boom time. Here's your split. But I'm like, I can't.

I'm trying to visualize what the communication would have been like with your coaches at the time then, because that must have been frustrating or very a situation in which, you know, they're trying to, you know, jam this square peg into a round hole and you're just doing your own thing.

Yeah. Mike Tobor, who do you know, Mike? I'm legend of like Lakeside Lakes.

I coach legend of a coach. He got me it took him a little bit, but he got me.

And so once I got into his group, so it's like, you know, bronze, silver, gold, pretty senior senior.

Like once I got into his senior group, it was like, boom, I could feel seen. I was, which I know it's a very cliche term, but now looking back. I felt so comfortable with him because he understood the way that I performed was in my body, it was a somatic experience of this feeling. I was a feeling athlete and I wasn't a thinking athlete, didn't have the stats and the splits and all of that down. I had no idea, no idea what I was going into at a meet.

I had no idea what ranking I was.

I had no idea I'd missed my races all the time because I didn't attention of, like, hilarious and endearing, though, because swimming is so stats driven. It's all about, you know, what the pace clock is telling you and your heart rate and, you know, you know, kind of the splits that you need to, you know, hit to get your gold time.

And you know what the Olympic trials qualifying time is.

And all of that stuff is like, you know, imprinted onto the brain for, you know, and I tried I tried really hard. I remember sitting down and writing my goals and trying to figure out my splits. And I remember these stories where I would sit at the kitchen table at our very first house, you know, Barbary Lane and my parents would sit there and help me. My mom, of course, had no she was not into that either.

But my dad would sit and help me with splits and I just did not understand it. There was no comprehension at all as a child. Like I it was right over my head. And I tried like I tried really hard.

And I'm glad that I did because I could see that side of it. That's really important to develop and understand. But I personally just I didn't it didn't resonate with me.

So I suspect not so good in math class. Horrible. Yeah. Like failed the whole way through. But like, oddly enough, like, you know, all A's and language arts and art and spelling and science and social studies and all of these other classes.

But math straight fail. And I would go to tutors and I you know, I come home crying so much just because I felt like I was a failure because I wasn't the same as everybody else. My school was a math and science school. It was heavy in that.

And I was this artist is mine that was free thinking and saw things abstractly and, you know, shapes and all and all these things, like I count things, but like this curtain right here, I'll count by the number of of creases in it, you know, like I'm weird. I think of things in a very odd and abstract way. And that was not OK. Like when I that was not OK. That was very confusing to people.

And so once I started to realize that, I started to gear myself more towards things like that in high school and stuff, I took art and apart and stayed in that lane.

But when it came to swimming, I really had to work with Mike on what that looked like for me because I wasn't the same as everybody else in the pool. Interesting.

Do you think that your swimming career would have looked different if you just stayed in arms under his tutelage the whole time? Oh, yeah. Because you understood you. Yeah, I think there would have been a learning curve again and again and again as I went on through the ranks of it, you know, like I would have changed and I would have grown and I would have gone through X, Y, Z, and it would have gone over again.

Oh, I think about that all the time, just like what I could have achieved or done differently. And I suppose that's normal for people to think about. Sure. But. Yeah, having to go to college then and sort of relearn or have a have a coach relearn me. Was the whole exhaustion, exhausting process, we're getting up to that, but at first was there I'm wondering whether there was like an inflection point early in your career when you were still in high school, where you were like, oh, man, like, I'm really good at this.

Like, was there a race or an event or something that occurred that that, you know, dawned upon you?

Like, I've got a real. Bright future. Yes, so I was a breaststroker first says weird, yeah, I wouldn't have thought that I may. I was my first junior national cut and my first international cut.

So how old were you when you first met junior nationals? 13.

Yeah, OK, I didn't go. Why not? Because I wasn't ready. According to who? Me. So I had this.

Who doesn't go. And that's a big deal, you said. And you make that qualifying time. I, I.

I remember so it was at the University of Kentucky, I made it in the 100 breaststroke and I got out and I remember my brother was like pumping his chest just like happier than I was. I was, like, sick. I made this cut, like, I don't even care. You know, it was this weird thing.

And he's like, dude, you know, that means like, yeah, that means you got to go to this meet through Lindow and all this stuff. And I'm like, no, I'm not going.

I start crying. I'm on deck. And Mike looked at me and he is like, I could cry right now. And you know me, I'm very vulnerable and emotional, so thanks for being with me.

But he he looked at me and he goes, you don't you don't want to go.

And I said, no, I'm not ready for that yet. I'm not there yet.

And he was like, OK, that's so impressive level of self-awareness for a young person, though. I was extremely self aware. I don't. But how much of that was just fear of the unknown? Certainly self understanding, certainly fear, 100 percent fear.

But my fear was stemming from going there and not making people happy if I performed poorly. So my fear was never that I wouldn't do well because my fear didn't.

How do I say this, like without sounding weird, I had a really strong trust in my ability.

I knew I wasn't going to be a bad swimmer. My fear was that I wouldn't please people. My fear was that I'd go and I'd fail and people would be upset with me, and if they're upset with me, that means I'm a bad person.

And then if I'm a bad person, that means, you know, whatever else I mean, it doesn't sound like your parents cared that much.

So it wasn't coming from them, was it?

That's the crazy thing is they're extremely hands off with my swimming. My mom didn't even know what I'd swim.

And she would say, like, oh, my God. Like, you know, it was a great swim, mom.

I just added 10 seconds. You know, she had no she was just you.

But you were the cutest one out there. I'm like, thanks, mom.

You know, my dad was more in tuned, but they never made me feel badly for any of my performances.

So I've started to realize that I was running from something throughout this time.

And then I kept running, which we'll get to. But I was running from something. And I think I just have this and I had this very strong fear of upsetting people. And I still think, you know, I think if you ask anybody that, where does that come from? Sure.

You can pinpoint a person or a place or a thing or whatever, but truthfully, you create a story about where that comes from.

You know, you create what that looks like. And then you have this whole scenario in your head about why you're not pleasing people. And I was so imaginative that my stories were seven feelings high, you know?

Yeah. To me, it almost sounds like fear of your own strength and power. Yeah.

That if you were to go to a meet like that and actually excel at the level that innately you knew you were capable of, that that would actually be the thing that would upset people not failing, but actually being as awesome as you knew that you could be like that might ruffle feathers.

Does that fit? Yeah. You struck a chord just there for sure, because upsetting people to me was not being liked. Right. So if I'm not liked, which is the same thing as what you're saying, if I beat other girls, if I do, you know, what does that mean? Right. They don't like me. And if I'm not liked by these girls or by these people, then.

I'm a bad person. It all stems back to this innate worthiness within myself that, like, I'm just not a good person if that happens, which is so interesting how that manifested at such a young age. But I this happen all the time.

I would let people beat me. I would literally let people beat me and meet sometimes because I was afraid to win. Yeah. I'd be looking around and they would be passing me and I would be like relieved.

It was crazy. Right. Right. Right. And really.

And then I get to the wall and just be upset because I knew that I could have won and I still have my best races in my life, knew I could have gone seven seconds fashion that it was more important to you to fit in than it was to excel at the level you were capable of.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's a very it's an intense emotion to revisit because, you know, then you think, well, what could I have done and how how do you train somebody to not give a shit about what people think?

And like I mean, how do you catch this? And like, you know, you could go down the rabbit hole of all the ways I could have done it differently. But the truth of the matter is, as a young woman, I didn't feel. Worthy enough. And bottom line, the issue is I don't feel worthy enough. And for that, you know, as a woman and as a young girl, I would imagine so many people feel the same way.

And I know for a fact, yeah, that's the average human.

That's the thing.

I mean, you know, some people, maybe the majority of people listening to this might struggle to connect with or relate to, you know, the high highs of your career and going to the Olympics and all of that. But that experience that you just related, I think is highly relatable, especially particularly to young female athletes or young females in general, because I don't think it's a thing that many. Guys go through. Yeah, but you can see it with young girls all over the place, all over the place, and there's nothing wrong with it.

I think it's just we're catching it faster, you know, like we're able to catch it faster.

People are becoming more aware. Coaches can become more aware. Parents, friends, peers can become more aware. When someone's like, I'm not good enough. I don't want this person to be mad at me.

You know, that's being caught faster, I think so that these young women can actually move up a little a little better and a little stronger and a little more empowered. And, you know, I say all this and it's I'm so human.

Like, I don't have a problem with saying I, like, knew that I was amazing and also freaked out that people wouldn't like me.

I'm like, yeah, the idea real, that idea of I'm not good enough. But but also the idea of it's not OK to be too good.

Right. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Too much.

And you still, you still stumble forward and you know, continue to excel as you mature as an athlete. Yeah. That must have been a little war that you were waging in your in your, in your consciousness. Yeah. It, it's a trip to think back to when you're young and to start unpacking. You know, I don't know if you've ever done stuff like this where you just go back and it's not just the past ten years, but it's the ten before that.

And then you start to realize, yeah, yeah. I'm pretty sure you just got to throw that out there.

But it's so fascinating to see the patterns and the different things that you you thought were just this problem. And you need to push down.

And when you can finally just say it and be like I was afraid of being too much and I was not I didn't think I was enough and just say it right and like, get it off your body and let it out of your system.

It's like, well, OK, I feel better now and now. Where do I start? Right.

And it's confusing. Those two ideas seem at odds with each other. How can you possibly harbor both of those thoughts at the same time?

One goes back to the two thoughts part. And like, you can't I can't have both of those, so it just must be one. And I just need to stick with it and deal with it and shove it down and move on and keep competing and make everybody happy. And then it's like whatever, you know. And that was my mindset is it's just like, well, just keep going.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The the the alcoholic disposition is you feel like you're superior to everybody and you know more than anybody else and you're more capable than anyone else. And at the same time you're a complete piece of shit and you don't deserve anything. Yeah. And those two. Identities coexisting at the same time.

Yeah, neither of which are true, right, and we create these stories that become such a reality, and especially if you're an imaginative soul and you have all these, you know, little little thing, you're my artistic sensibility airline.

Nothing is in like a linear sequence in your brain. You've got like 12 different Alison wonderlands going on. So it's like, oh, that must be true. Oh, that must be true. Well, that's true.

You know, and you're picking from all these parts of yourself. And I think that's where I could that was a blessing. But it could also be a curse for me as a swimmer and as a human in general. It was a lot to unpack when I finally did.

I was there's a lot of shame that comes with that because you feel.

I think what I started to really. Pick apart, I guess I don't know if that's the right word, but dissect was how is it possible to hold space for something like that?

Like how is it possible to hold space for parts of you that you have a lot of shame, parts of you, that you have a lot of grief, like you grieve parts of yourself and people pleasing, which is a weird thing as well, and also not sound like a victim all the time or like you're complaining. You know, so doing that works hard because you don't know how to say it and and feel like you can own it and claim it because you want to complain.

You want to sound like you're you don't want to appeal to other people too with that. So I just didn't and I just didn't for however long and how that worked out horribly. Yeah. We'll be right back. But first, we're brought to you today by my friends and on running the fastest growing running shoe brand on the planet, longtime listeners are familiar with my love affair with on.

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All right. Back to the ship. All right, so by the time you're a senior in high school, though, you're crushing it.

I assume you're getting recruited at all these colleges.

You're probably rocking out in, you know, records and all that kind of stuff at that point.

Yeah. So my college recruiting experience was really interesting.

I went to Arizona, Texas, Northwestern Florida. Cal and Stanford. Mm hmm. Stanford. Yeah.

My mom was like, let's go to California. You know, my dad's like, no.

So I ended up having to choose between Arizona and Florida because I wanted to train with the guys. Mm.

I loved training with the only two programs where they train together. Yeah.

And up. So what was that about. Well why was that important.

This is this is like kind of strange. So I somehow knew that first of all I train with guys like I had tons of guys. There was like five people in the senior team that were girls. The rest were dudes. Mm hmm.

My brothers, where I grew up, around guys like a lot of guy cousins. I just I liked that energy for training. I don't even know what it was like to really train with all girls. So I was sort of just biased right off the start. But I also knew that the men back Strokers in the 200 were equivalent to what I wanted to be in the 200 free. I didn't know times that I remember my brother saying to me, if you want to go really fast in your 200 free, you need to train with dudes in the 200 back because it's the same time.

And I was like, whatever that means. But so. Right. You know, I check the box of looking at University of Florida.

Palm Tree is like Mike Debord's best friend.

Martin will be was one of the coaches, you know, men and women's team, warm weather and a lot of male backstroker.

So I can train with them. Isn't that weird? And I ended up doing it my whole career.

Right. Well, you're you're somebody who has a lot of guy friends. Like it feels like most of your friends are dudes.

Yeah. You know, so not I think the word masculine has a pejorative when used in association with somebody who's a woman. But there is like a there is a masculine aspect to how you carry yourself socially. Yeah.

Yeah. I like to hang. Yeah. And you're super tight with your brother. Yeah. Yeah.

And I, I really needed that experience and I wanted that experience and and then he ended up going there. Right.

And that was like a be transferred though, right. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot that went on with that. Just a lot of. Yeah, it was a lot that went on with that, but, you know, Greg Troy recruited me to University of Florida and he was my main coach throughout the years there. And that, you know, that's the whole up and down relationship between him and I. But yeah, so I went to University of Florida, end up siding with them, full scholarship when in my freshman year.

Oh, man, I had the best freshman year out of all the years, really, actually 200 free, 500 free at one of the medics was second in both at NCAA A's.

And then my sophomore year came around and I had so many expectations and I just swam like crap. I mean, it was a rough year for me.

I so what was the change like? What do you attribute that dip to? Expectations, yeah, so. So suddenly you're this artistic personality who kind of just goes with the flow and suddenly you're in a position where you're actually paying attention to all that stuff that everybody had been telling you all along that you needed to pay attention to. Yeah, and it had the opposite effect. Yeah.

So all of a sudden, I had to pay attention to times like you said, you know, and coming in as a freshman, there's no expectation. It's just, you know, go and Greg Troy, you know, put a lot of pressure on me.

My sophomore year, he also had me training in the distance group. So Anthony Nasti was my coach. And amnesty is amazing. He's the greatest human.

But every day I'd walk on the pool deck, on the outdoor deck with a distance group trained and he would say, why are you out here? I don't know why you're out here.

And I'm like, I don't either. I don't you know, I cannot do for one thousand for time.

Right? Like, that's not the way I train. So I started I started doing this distance training and stepping out of the weight room and then into the pool, more in training, straight descends. And my body didn't respond. I'm pretty sensitive adrenals. And so it was like, boom. I was, you know, severely underweight.

I wasn't training. Well, I wasn't competing. Well, I got sick a few times. I was also an unhealthy relationship for the first year of my life. And so it was just like coming from every angle.

It was like the great storm of, oh, dear God, I can now I have to prove myself and people don't like me again and I'm not well and I don't know what to do.

Was there pressure to lose weight?

Yeah, yeah, every day I went on the pool deck, I was told either, you know, tighten it up or go on an extra run this week or, you know, there are specific groups for extra runs and stuff.

And I was. Not anywhere near needing to detect urine. And that was oh, that was a really, really hard time for me.

I. I didn't know either how to I didn't have a voice, I didn't speak up, I didn't say a damn word, you know, because I believed in what was going on. I believed in it.

And I just remember being so confused, like, I don't understand why I'm being told these things, like, why am I not enough? So we're back to that again.

Yeah, well, you have a certain level of success in your you know, you're this big fish in a small pond in Kentucky. But then, you know, for people that are unfamiliar, like the University of Florida was a mecca of swimming. You were in that bubble pool, right? Like. Yeah, that epic architectural pool. Yeah. Is that still there?

I love that pool. Yeah. It's a little five lane outdoor pool.

Right. Greg, try legendary coach Anthony Nasti, Olympic gold medalist in the Hunter Fly from Surinam.

I remember the when he won the gold medal they like they put him on the currency like he was such a national hero.

Oh, yeah. You would go back for parades and they'd parade him around in a chair, you know, whole the whole deal.

And he married this beautiful, tall redhead woman and they had the most amazing little girl like I mean, he was just fantastic.

And, you know, honestly, unfortunately, he was the distance coach that had a lot of interaction with him after sophomore year.

What was the decision that you needed to go into the distance program? Because, I mean, that ends up being your thing. But that wasn't what you arrived thinking you were going to be doing.

He wanted me to swim the mile. He wanted me to because I don't know.

I don't know. I really don't know. Yeah, well, I was gonna. Right. I mean, I was good at the five hundred and that was like 800 meters. Yeah. Yeah.

But I wasn't mentally a miler and that wasn't my thing. I was a very much five hundred that went toward the two hundred and not the other way. But I mean, the amount we trained and, you know, John's interview with you, oh, my God, I mean, we were training four times a day. Four times a day. Yeah, we had morning practice. We had weights and dry land and we had afternoon practice.

So morning go to class, go to weights, go back to dry land to go to afternoon practice, eat two to two pool sessions and two gym sessions every day. Yeah. Yeah. And I and you're lucky I was like capped maybe 15000 yards a day or something, you know, some days way more at home.

But I was just tapped, you know, and so I think there was a belief that I needed more training. And I remember one day I walked into the pool sophomore year and it was like for 2000 No. Nine, what, nine, 16, 50s. And I mean, I'm not kidding Rich. Like, I start crying, like, immediately, like and I was I didn't know what to do.

Fifty is a mile and nine one mile repeats in the pool.

I mean, let's put it this way. It takes from two until like seven. So I just start crying unlike the 18 minutes or something like that.

Yeah. Yeah, right. And so nasty comes up to me and he puts his hands on my shoulders and he was like, you're going to be OK.

I don't know if I was well, you know, I'm going to give this a try, but they pulled me out at 4:00. So that day only did for but I'll never forget I got it for him.

They still had five more that finished like seven, by the way, seven p.m. and I called Mike there and I'm sitting on the side of the pool, the outdoor pool, like over in a corner on my little flip cell phone, you know, it's like two thousand, five and a half or whatever. And I just said, something's not right. I'm not I'm not doing what I need to be doing here. Like, something isn't right. And and he was just you talk me through it like, you know, what are you training, what's going on, whatever.

I guess what happened was he ended up talking to one of the coaches will be will be talked to Troy. And it was like, we need to switch around her training again, like she can't be training this way. It's not working for her. So they end up putting me back in the weight room two extra days a week and putting me in the middle distance group and breaststroke group like breaststroke. I am. And I started swimming way better like lights out.

So, you know, the balance of that. But also I think as I sort of have reflected on that feeling seen from Mike.

And then having a conversation with my coach and connecting on that level and having a real conversation about what's happening with my body, why my cycles are gone, you know, why I'm sick all the time, why my blood work sucks like getting real with the actual biological effects of what's gone on inside my body with that overtraining was eye opening for them and also for me because I didn't I've never been overtrained before, really.

Like, I didn't understand what that felt like.

So that really was the first time in my life I saw the combination of the mind body working together to kind of pivot me back on course. Right. Right. I didn't have that connection before. I always, you know, so to kind of refer back to what I was saying earlier, I we sort of felt weird because I had that innately.

I knew that I was a somatic experience there and I felt things in my body, but I didn't understand the brain and the body were working together to feel things in that where you feel when you feel the other. It's very similar to John Moffett's trajectory because he was, you know, a guy who couldn't handle that kind of volume but had the self-awareness and the boundaries, the healthy boundaries to say, like, I'm not going to that morning workout, like it's not in service to the goals that I've set or of the team.

And I think people don't understand how difficult it is to to create that boundary because you're part of this program that's legendary and this is what we do here. So get in the pool and don't ask questions.

I used to have my academic advisor, Tim.

I pull me out of workouts because he knew how drained and tired I was, like my grades were suffering and he would just have me sit in the OSL, the Office of Student Life over in the corner and tell coach that I had a tutor, quote unquote, because I was so drained I would just sleep.

And it takes a long time to emerge out of that super long.

I felt very guilty, held a lot of guilt there because it felt like everyone else is training. But I was also going through trauma, like I was also going through a very unhealthy situation with a relationship.

And so not only that, my whole systems and sympathetic 24/7 showing up to the pool, you know, with zero hours of sleep because I'm up all night the night before going through whatever I'm going through. And I get to the you know, the I wasn't even accounting for that.

Like, I didn't realize how much that was playing a part in my performance. And it was like Eye-Opening to me to finally realize that that was working against me, like all of these factors were working against me. And if I didn't align myself in the right path, mind and body, I wasn't going to go anywhere.

But you emerge out of that. Hmm. Yeah. Senior year and days was like the big emergence out of it. I slowly emerged, but that was my play. My favorite part was that 2008. Yeah, 2008. You break the answer to a record in the 500 free. Yeah. And that was the longest standing record at the time. Right. Was a Janet Evans. Yeah. I mean, that's pretty epic.

That was my favorite performance of my life for 33 or something like that.

Yeah. And I, I ripped two suits before that and I remember just being totally in flow like I don't remember that race at all. I touch the wall and I had oodles of energy, I could have gone for another five hundred and I remember just being like, holy shit, like trials are in three months. I'm going to do this like I remember that thought going through my mind, like the moment that I touch the wall, I'm going to the Olympics.

Yeah. And also with that comes a lot of, you know, pressure. But that moment was really powerful for me because it was the first time that I felt like I really hit that stride of feeling and flow and seeing the struggle throughout my college career come to a place where I could. Put aside these distractions that I had, you know, going on at the exact same time and use the tools that I had to make something happen, you know, it felt like what were the what were those tools specifically at that time?

I went from not doing any sort of mindset work at all or really understanding what that was to focusing in on that kind of stuff, breath work. I don't recall a meditation, but I journal I'd visualization about visualization imagery. I wrote all my goals and images and pictures and none of my goals were. And times my locker had like the pictures are like an icon of something like a banana nut banana reminded me of. Like whatever I wanted to do was, you know, I was weird, so.

So that was a big factor in that those tools, but also. I think I felt I felt very aligned with Coach Choi at that time because right before that year we had a huge conversation about the way I perform, what I need to go and do in practice.

And a lot of that stemmed around like tempo work, visualization work, like our conversations were about that. Like he saw me, you know, for the first time in that relationship as a coach to swimmer. And I was able to really turn that around.

And so I think it was the connection made with him, like the connection that I felt finally, after however many years, feeling a connection with this person. Yeah, trust, communication, clarity. So instead of this resistance that we had, like he doesn't get me, I don't get her, he doesn't get me, I don't get her, it was like one conversation, one one two hour conversation could really change the trajectory of what I was going to do based on sharing what works for me and how I can be a better student of whatever it is that I need to get done through the methods that my brain understands, the learning styles, my brain.

So forming some kind of partnership. Yeah. Type of relationship. Yeah. So trials comes up three months later.

Three months later.

It's an interesting one because you end up making the Olympic team. By getting fourth in the 200 freestyle, but you got a bunch of force, right, and a fifth like you and Hunter free for under free, I barely and then I would have medaled at the actual Olympics with the times I went.

So I know it was a pretty it's like, yeah, it's like it's got to be like mixed emotions because you didn't actually qualify in individual events. Yeah.

You were just one play shy of of getting that you still medal at the Olympics in the relay. You swam the preliminaries and then also on the final. So they bumped you up. Yeah. Mm hmm. Did you just rock out a split they didn't expect or.

Yeah. So this is where things kind of get interesting, my Olympic trials was. A pretty. Emotional ride for me. I was going through, like, the thick of some traumatic experiences literally at the trials, like in the process of that means like relationship stuff. Yeah, yeah. So.

I think, you know, as I've as I've worked through that, too, that is where some of that resentment and shame comes from, because I think to myself, could I have been better had I not? Had that kind of extracted by a boyfriend situation that wasn't working out right?

Yeah, so. Let's see, I made it and the well, the 400 free, I missed it by a spot 200 free I made it and then one hundred free and the Aynur free. I was like fifth, fifth, fourth or something like that.

And, you know, the trials are so intense, it's the most intense.

Me way more intense than the Olympics. But, you know, gearing up toward the Olympics, this is the year the prelims were at night and finals were in the morning in Beijing.

So, you know, really having to change how I trained like I was a night swimmer.

Now, I had to be a both swimmer, right, to be a morning a prelim, a final, the whole thing.

But, you know, that was it was a really important time. Olympic trials were a really important time to get to the Games. I think. I wish I would have made it an individual event for sure. I still feel that.

But I also am so proud of myself for how I handled everything else that was going on and the way that I was able to show up during the darkest part of my life. Like the I was in the dark as one of the darkest parts of my life before I even made the team.

And so, you know, yes, the transition was really dark. But that part right before was really hard to pull myself out of.

Were you keeping all that private, though, or were you letting people help you?

I had one person helping me and my counselor at school. I didn't talk to anybody about it. My parents had no idea. My teammates, my roommates knew because they lived with me.

But I didn't have any, you know. Conversations with people about it and Great Britain or. Mm hmm. You know, they did, but I think it's complicated.

Yanagihara You think about it.

So when you reflect back on your Olympic experience, I mean, how do you how do you think about it now versus then?

I feel like it was the beginning of my life in a weird way, like it was like the first. Of so much to come, and it was a springboard for sure for a lot of different reasons, but it was the beginning of my life in that. I was able to to look I'm able to look at it and know that I have sort of been reborn again from that experience, like I was a certain way leading up to it. And this experience happens and it's easy for people to say, sure, you go to the Olympics, of course you're reborn.

You know, it's this big achievement.

But personally, internally, the way my nervous system was wired, the way my whole body and my being are in this world, I was able to sort of start there and say what's been working and what hasn't. And and, you know, how can I go from here that I know that at the time now that I know that 10 years after I know do I look at it now and say, oh, wow, that was a beautiful thing.

And I'm so glad that I can look at that experience and say, holy shit, I stood on the podium in front of the world and also can see every age of Caroline Bergel, two, four, six, eight, 10 to every age of myself.

They're showing up to that podium every single age until that moment. And that's really special because to me, it doesn't symbolize this like 200 free, yeah, that's great. But it's. To get there, it took all versions of me. Mm hmm. And then to go from there, it's going to take a whole different. Caroline. Yeah, and I think that feeling in that realization is powerful to feel that you can have stages of your life like that.

What do people not fully understand about the Olympic experience?

I mean, I suspect it's got to be disorienting to go from, you know, churning out sets in Gainesville to suddenly being, you know, foisted on the international stage and being on television in a bathing suit, you know, for all the world to, you know, cast their judgments on and their opinions.

It's definitely. It really challenges your focus, it challenges your ability to stay in your lane and to be able to to block things out really well, especially with media and with other things going on. Luckily, then, we didn't have a lot of media. There wasn't. We have phones at the Olympics, right. We didn't have mean Facebook was online, but it wasn't there was no iPhone or anything like that.

No social media, no iPhones. We didn't have any technology in the village. The village is a very, you know, dense experience. There's just a lot of people obviously vying for the same things. So the energy is just palpable. You can feel it from everybody. But there's also this camaraderie, beautiful. You know, you see every country and every walk of life. And it's a really special experience.

And you see a lot that you've never seen before. She was a girl from Kentucky and Florida. And I mean, I'm seeing the world right. You're seeing the world right in front of you.

And you have to really check yourself with what you've, you know, thinking your whole life and put your judgment aside and be able to to hone in on really what you're doing except everybody and kind of move forward, because that's the point of the Olympics, right. Is to accept everybody. The rings symbolize that unity of the world together. So it is a special experience where you're trying to compete against each other, but you really trying to bring everybody together of the world into this special place to achieve his goal.

Do you feel like in the wake of that, you you departed Beijing thinking, I'm just starting like I got a bunch of force and I was on this relay and I got a medal. But, you know, my individual time would have meddled in this event, like I'm getting back to work.

No, no. I knew I was bummed that I couldn't have meddled on my own, but I was so burnt out at that point, I was beyond ready to walk away and to run away. You know, I was listening to Apollos podcast with you and he just, you know, some of the things he said struck a chord, too, just with, you know, the weight of gold and how that all works.

Right. And we can go down that path. But it's a it's a whole.

It's a whole experience of. What now? Right, and that's the easiest way to say it. But there really is no better way to say it. Yeah, it it's daunting. And also, you can't be bothered to go back into the fires like we're so good as athletes focusing and pivoting our focus. So we pivot to running.

And you don't look back that way because really damn good at what you do. So you're going to focus this way instead of focusing, but you don't know what to focus that spotlight on.

That's the problem. And on paper, like from an academic perspective, you know, who wouldn't want to hire an Olympian? These people know how to work hard. They know how to set a goal. They know how to achieve it. They know how to show up under pressure and overcome obstacles like they just seem like the ultimate candidate for the marketplace.

But it doesn't work that way.

And I think the the more often than not, it is the weight of gold where they become they have this existential crisis, like, what am I supposed to do now?

I've never thought about this because getting to where they got to achieve what they achieved, it required every ounce of focus and discipline and intention.

There just wasn't any time to ponder what comes after. And there aren't structures in place to help athletes with that transition. No, no.

So that's why I think that movie was so, you know, so powerful and instructive.

It was incredible. I watched it a few times. I was just sobbing my eyes because, again, it goes back to that same conversation of how can you be feeling two things at once. Like, right. So proud, like sick. You know, Lolo Jones, like sick. I just want this medal. And also I'm making smoothies, you know, so. Right. It's like, how can you be so angry and harbor this anger and frustration at what you've done and also be so proud and so excited that you've done this thing and can't wait to, like, tell your friend, like, you know, even though they know can't wait to do all these other things and.

You can't tell your friends that you feel that way. Oh, so much shame with them because they would think you're an entitled spoiled brat or you know, that was my story. Mm hmm.

No one wants to hear that sob story, you know, and Michael Phelps says it really well, too. He says the same thing. Like, I couldn't possibly tell people I was depressed. I had 700 gold medals. I'm like, there's no way I could tell somebody that I'm depressed.

Like, there's no way that I could share, you know?

That I've had suicidal thoughts, there's no way that I could share that. You know, I was in a traumatic situation, a relationship, there's no way that I could share that. You know, God at that. That I hated myself at a certain part of day four at the Olympics, you know, there's no way you can share these specific feelings because. What then, what would what would people think of you? Right, right, you're you're you're a bulletproof Olympian.

Yeah.

You got to be Superman, you know, you've got to be this special force that, you know, people would kill to be in your shoes. And so, yeah, you could never say something that would. Jeopardize your Olympic status? Yeah, because then. If people find out and not only people, but media outlets, the media finds out there, oh, she's complaining about that.

Yeah, she's got a bad attitude. So there's there's an Olympian. Right.

And the the psychology of it is changing because I think there's a lot of awareness now around the fact that you can be depressed or having a difficult time, are going through something traumatic and also perform.

Mm hmm. That both of those are OK. Again, back to the two things. Yeah, well, I mean, I think, you know, Michael is to be credited, you know, considerably for the work that he's done to expand that awareness.

Huge. And I mean, when you were on the Olympic team with him, is there when you're you've spent a lot of time with him, I presume? Yeah.

Well, you know, was there any like I'm sure your your your relationship with him is when you're at swim meets. Right. So you see that aspect of it.

Yeah. No, and we saw it with Michael though, just because he's he's vulnerable, like he could show he wears his emotions on his sleeve and so you could see him struggling. But you don't know to what extent.

You don't know if that's just you know, at that point in time, we're also laser focused.

We don't know if that's just like with training or with, you know, not going times you want to go or whatever it is, you just assume that that person is struggling for another reason, not with worth. Even though. I was struggling with work, so it's like you can feel it, but we just know it was like hushed, but no one would ever utter those words. Yeah, we all feel this way, but no one's saying anything, you know?

So he was like, the cat's out of the bag.

Like he broke the mold there of we've all been feeling that somebody just needs to say it. Yeah.

Because we're all feeling it and walking around with this, like, weird thing where everyone's awkward and.

Oh yeah, I'm great. How are you. I'm great, you know, years later. And it's like that's not the case. Like let's just say it how it is. And also you can be struggling and be proud of your experience at the same time. No one's telling you you can't have both. Yeah. You know, and I think that a lot of us felt like we couldn't have both.

So you kind of cut and run, right?

Like, you just you just walk away from the pool for a little while. I mean, you found your way back to it, but you took this break. So I cut and run.

I didn't look one direction from a full four years. First time I stepped inside of a years, years, probably two and a half. Oh, wow. I retired in 2010. First time I stepped foot back into a pool was Clarke's Olympic trials. And that was like really hard for me. I cried so much at that meat by myself in the hotel room in Omaha, and I was so proud of my brother. Like, I have never seen a better race than his race to make the Olympic team in that two and a breaststroke.

He's hands down the best underwater pull out kid in the world. I mean, he's insane.

He's so strong. And I was so proud of him and so emotional there at that meet.

Of course, anybody who cried in a hotel room because, of course, they couldn't be seen, brother or sister duos that have both become Olympians, there must be Crippen's, I believe.

I no, maybe I'm thinking of something I don't know. I don't think so. Maybe another sports right in swimming there's sister. Sisters like Hayley and Alyssa Anderson. No, but that was I was the first time, so you can imagine I ran away in the first time I come back is around the exact same world, the world I ran away from. And I had a purpose.

My purpose was to support my brother. So I was able to, again, block out my stuff, handle it on my own and be there for him. And I treated that whole Olympic trials like I was competing.

My ass was up at 4:00 a.m., going on a run, getting ready, eating breakfast, like the whole like I felt like I was in the experience, but I was not like I wasn't in that experience.

But so he makes the team and then we go to London. And that, again, you know, it's like my second meet back and that was really difficult for me. So throughout this whole process, difficult but proud. So, I mean, I can't tell you, like, I was way more proud of my brother than I ever was of myself. It's crazy how that works.

And I get to oh, well, throughout that process, I was like struggling with body dysmorphia. Some disordered eating wasn't healthy, let's put it that way at all. Like just full stop, wasn't healthy, wasn't eating, wasn't taking care of myself, didn't feel worthy of love, period. I didn't have that. My system had been in overdrive. I had been in sympathetic literally for years, and I had not come down. My body was churning every last morsel of energy just to get through that night.

And I got back from that me and I just like.

Crashed like my suit, my body just started to break down like it was this whole thing with that, but that was the that was sort of the first realization that I had. I wasn't healthy. Right.

So between 2008, the Olympics, you walking away from the sport in 2012 when you you don't really return to swimming, but you return to the culture. Right. To support your brother a lot. There's a lot that happened. So I want to spend a little bit of time here.

I mean, you you end up you know, you're trying to find your way. You get a fashion degree. You got to fit them. Right. And you're working with some apparel brands and you're employed. You're trying to figure it out. But I feel like there's a crucial event that takes place that I think, you know, puts you deeper into that psychological hole. And that happens around 2010. So can we talk about that a little bit?

Yeah. So I had transferred from The Fit O.C. campus to the L.A. campus, so I was living with Haley Peirsol. Mm hmm. And Erin came to visit for like three months. Classic and move.

So you like living in Costa Rica now or something, I guess.

Yeah, but he came to live with us. He just lived with us. I was on the corner of losse and I got an Olympic like, what am I right in L.A..

L.A., huh. And I was you know, I was working for Lululemon, I just like I didn't know what to do, you know, so.

I was sitting in my apartment one night and I get like multiple calls in on my phone, one after the next, I'm like, who is this? No, no, I don't understand what's going on. And then I got a bunch of text messages and voicemails that were left. And I had just retired from swimming so literally a month, retired fresh. I had been training, you know, for context at Fullerton Aquatic Club with Sean Hutchison. And and what was the intention of the training at that time?

Because this is two years after the Olympics, like, were you thinking or was it because you just couldn't let go of it and didn't know what else to do?

Or did you have designs on some some lofty goals?

I was just running I was chasing different things to check off the list that I could just do, like I needed something to feel worthy, I needed to have something to show. So I just kept doing things.

I was collecting accolades and degrees and all these things. And I was like, oh, yeah, I'll just do all these things, distract myself.

You're living on Olympic in La Cienega and you're driving to Fullerton to swim. I mean, that's a hike. Yeah, I mean, I did that just until I retired and I was OK. I can't do this anymore because you had to transfer campus for four feet. I got it. But I felt like I just had to prove myself in the sport, you know, like I felt like I needed to finish it off and prove myself and.

And when I retired, I retired at Irvine Nationals. I knew I knew my last race, I knew it going into it. I knew the moment I did the 200 free line one, I swam horrible. I got out. I went to the diving. Well, put my gloves on, try to not let anybody see me cry. And Amanda Beard, of course, comes over and puts her arm on my shoulder. And she was you know, she was an angel for me my whole career, by the way, she was an angel at the training camp with some coach situations.

She was an angel.

You know, afterward, she just said, like, you're going to be OK. You may not know what you're going to do, but you're going to be OK. And I was like, OK. And, you know, this is coming from somebody that's like started the sport seven different times and, you know, had a crazy cool career and child and, you know, all these things.

And so I just let it be. And I just walked away from the sport. But I walked away from the sport because I was. Tired of the politics and the feelings that I got about. My worth as a human being and my body and my butt, like I was just tired, I just needed to get away, like it was so exhausting to always feel like I was like an object of or a project or, you know, something that I couldn't.

I couldn't figure out how to find my love for it again, so, like, why not just run away? And I want to keep trying and forcing this if I'm just going to feel angry at it. And that was my reason for stopping. I was tired. I was tired of what was going on.

I was tired of feeling like I was just like I said, this object or this project or not enough or needed to be somebody for these coatis or these people.

I just like wanted to be. And it was such a powerful feeling within me that I was just so tired of that. And so I just ran away. And that's when I had a lot of different things happening. Right. But I. I fully ended my career.

On a very intense like. Bodily feeling that I had to go right, like I had to go, like it was just too much for me. And also like. I got out what I put in that, you know, that I got what I came for. I did what I wanted to do with a little girl on the on the pool deck.

Yeah. But, oh, I just feel it in my body when I talk about at that moment was so powerful, it was I was sitting on the side of the pool and I was ending this thing. It's like you're breaking up with this thing you've been with for 25 years or whatever.

And it was just this. This is what this is how it is.

This is how it's going to end. Just like petering out in a local meet. Yeah. And subpar performance. Yeah. Yeah. Subpar performance.

Really not good and proud of myself for continuing. But, you know, I just wanted to prove myself and when I realized that I just didn't need to be in it anymore, I needed to find something else.

And I knew that I could and I knew that I could could be rebirth in my life. And I had that feeling that that would happen. I just didn't know how. Yeah, I had no idea how. I had no idea what I was going to do. Well, you moved to La Cienega and Olympic and you start working for a Lululemon, apparently.

And then I walked the Cinemateca stairs every day of my workout. Huh?

Uh, yeah. So I moved there.

I live with Hayley and then Aaron came came to live with us and I was just very depressed during that time.

I don't really recall. Any moments that felt like pure joy for me, you know, I I was really struggling during that time.

I was really hard for me. It's when I started to hide, started to inch my way into the little hole step by step.

And it was right around this time that you start you've got this evening occurred where you get these weird text messages. Yeah. And that felt like the last straw for me, like that was like the last straw for me, so I get so excited to explain what happened. Yeah, yeah.

So my coach Sean from Fast was out with Coach Bowman one night.

And I guess, you know, whatever they were doing, they decided to send me some vulgar text messages and voicemails and it involved myself and some of my brother and just things that were very traumatizing for me as a 20, I don't know, three year old girl that had just retired from the sport and also run away from that exact thing, that exact experience of, you know, abuse in a lot of ways.

And so. Done like that, that moment was traumatizing for me, and it felt like my my initial reaction was that I needed to turn them in, so I turned messages in.

Right. So let's just contextualize it a little bit. Yeah. Sean Hutchinson, is this from Kosheh Fast and you know it, a well regarded coach who had birthed many a career. Bob Bowman is like, you know, famous for being Michael Phelps's coach. So you get these weird text messages from unknown numbers and it turns out it's Bob and Sean and they're off color. They're off putting their distasteful. We don't need to get into exactly what they said, but there's articles out there if you want to read about it.

It's been reported in the press, but it was highly, highly inappropriate.

And it also was a glimpse into, you know, some things that Shawn had been doing that he shouldn't have been doing with with with a friend of yours, a swimmer, Ariana Cooker's, that that then kind of precipitated, after you report this, a whole kind of scandal with USA Swimming, not just with respect to Shawn and his relationship, his inappropriate relationship with with Arianna and the kind of, you know, legal actions that took place in the wake of that, but also more broadly about how USA Swimming deals with these sorts of situations historically.

Yeah.

So you get these weird text messages, you know, in them, you you respond and you're like, this isn't funny. You know, Bob Abbad, you reported at the time. Right.

So is this like 2011, 2010, 2009, the beginning of 11 or the middle of 10? What does USA Swimming say to you? So I turn them in and admittedly, you know, following my classic Carolin pattern, my first message to them was, please just do what you need to do and leave me out of this. I don't want to make anybody upset. Mm hmm. And that was my first reaction. But being the people pleaser that you are, I suspect it was even a struggle for you to decide to report them to begin with.

Very, very difficult, despite it being so highly inappropriate, very difficult.

Aaron actually was the one that encouraged me to do it. You know, he's a very he's an advocate for like what's right and USA Swimming. And he's he's been fantastic with that.

And so I said, OK, OK, OK, I'll do it. I, I don't want to upset anybody.

So I turn them in and, you know. I remember them asking me if I wanted to appear on a call, so I appeared on a call, Sean didn't show, Bob did show and he was apologetic and, you know, the whole thing. And that was that there was never anything else done about it.

And that I think Bob Bowman gets named to be an Olympic coach, my brother.

You're right. And so nothing happens to Bob Bowman at all except maybe some stern words from Frank Bush. And that's kind of.

Yeah, that was it. And of course, I was so.

I don't know if the word traumatized is correct, but it's really the only word that comes up for me that I just was like, sure, you guys do it. You know, I just want to stay out of it. Please just leave me out of it. I didn't feel I had a voice to even insert myself into this situation and share how I felt and what my thoughts were and what my feelings were.

And I since have felt more empowered to talk about that and how it's absolutely not OK and it just shouldn't happen across the board. But man, did I just not feel like I had any voice in that at all. There was no.

And when you raise your voice, it didn't seem like it had any impact. I mean, Sean ended up paying, you know, a greater price for for good reason.

But none of this was reported until twenty eighteen. So you do this and then it's all kind of dealt with behind the scenes, eight years on one level or another until 2018 when the O.C. Register of All Publications, you know, does this deep dive investigative journalism into this story. And this story breaks in this local paper and then it becomes like a national story. Yeah.

And that rocked me like that. Rocked me because I had never.

I ran away from it. I ran away from everything for those eight years, every single thing that occurred in my life that was not OK from, you know, a coach or relationship or, you know, basically those two things. I ran away from it all because I didn't know how to address it, a sheepish I didn't I didn't know how to even say anything. It wasn't a big deal to to speak up then either. People don't do that.

People never really did that. You know, that women didn't really speak up. I mean, Aly Raisman sort of put that on the map right where you're just like, this isn't OK. Like, I'm going to stand up for what's right and you can't be speaking like this. Young women. And I understood that I was 23, you know, and that I was a little bit older and I was retired, quote unquote. But the the idea is that these things shouldn't be happening at all because of their thinking than was being thought when I was a swimmer and being, you know, not just because it wasn't acted on then doesn't mean it's still OK.

And so and nothing happened until 2018 and. That was when they dug up all that stuff for Arianna's case and they called me and they were like, did this happen to you? And I'm like, yeah, of course, I turned in the information like, what's going on? I was startled, totally like, what's going on? Well, this is so and so. I need to know this because you're under investigation, because we found files from Sean toward you, and I was just.

In that moment, rich, like my whole being shut down because my body and fight or flight was just like, Yeah. Oh, my God, like you're you're going to die like that was how I reacted and I was just literally on my apartment, my second apartment in L.A., my floor for a straight week. I don't think I ate one meal. I was on the phone with Jack every day, like all day. I don't think I drank any water.

I don't think I went out of my apartment. I was ordering in anything I needed. I, I didn't want to be seen. It was all of a sudden like I was the bad guy. That was my view of it is that I was now the bad guy and I. Because Bowmans this huge hero. Yeah, and I respected him as a coach, I really, really did. And I you know, I didn't have any that was a shock from him.

I didn't have any problems with Bob, you know, so that was a shock from him. From Sean, no. Mm hmm.

You know, but yeah, for people that are listening, I mean, Sean, it turns out, had had, you know, developed a highly inappropriate relationship with Arianna dating back to the beginning when she was 13 years old, like grooming her, sexually assaulting her at 16, I believe, ultimately getting banned from the sport.

I think they just settled the civil lawsuit.

I don't know if there's any update on what's going on with that guy, but he's not answering any more.

Yeah, but short of that story coming out in twenty eighteen, this was all being dealt with surreptitiously, which is kind of par for the course for USA Swimming that time and time again has to weather these scandals.

And you would think they would learn their lesson and figure out a way to deal with this stuff above board. But they seem to continue to trip on themselves and handle it miserably.

And it's it's really reprehensible and inexplicable. I mean, I guess I can understand these people who are trying to cover their ass and, you know, keep these things from being public scandals. But they consistently seem to do the wrong thing here. And this dates back decades. And I think we've talked about this. I don't know if you know this, but but my high school girlfriend was Kelly Davies, and she was sexually harassed by our swim coach, Rick Curl.

That was going on while I was in a relationship with her.

This is like back in the you know, like the early mid 80s.

And, you know, it's a very different time back then that was settled civilly, privately for like a hundred and fifty thousand dollars back in like nineteen eighty eight or eighty six or something like that, and resurfaced many years later.

Because Kelley, for reasons that I'm sure you can relate to, had a lot of unresolved trauma over this. And when she saw Rick Curl, when she turned on the television to watch Olympic trials on the deck, and it occurred to her, like, this guy's still coaching and nobody knows what happened because this was dealt with in the way that it was dealt with. It became an intolerable situation. And, you know, she alerted USA Swimming. I don't think that they dealt with it as well as they should have at the time.

Ultimately, it all came to light because The Washington Post, like the OC Register, cottoned on to the story and decided to pull on a few threads and expose the whole thing, which ultimately led to Rick Curl going to jail.

But this was so long after the fact. Yeah, right. And it was something that I'm sure USA Swimming thought was in the past. And, you know these things, you know. Tend to not go away unless they're dealt with swiftly and responsibly. Yeah, what you don't deal with will always come back, you know, and across the board, it always comes back full circle, like things that aren't dealt with, whether it's personally or within an organization or whatever it is, it's going to come back around.

It's not just gone. And I think I always had a feeling it would.

I just didn't know when, you know, I always like I always felt like, how is this it? Like this can't really that can't be it. Right. Like something has to to come to the surface with this, even if it's just by laws and different things that come out that are, you know, governing the whole coaching body, as you know, USA Swimming coaching body as a whole.

And what do they need to do in order to pass certain ethical right standards?

Well, they seem to kind of adhere to the letter of the law, but not the spirit of the law. Like they have the hotline you can call if if something happens and you can report it.

But in the case of Shawn, didn't the USA Swimming's general counsel, like, appointed this former FBI investigator to do the sort of, you know, roll up your sleeves, work and interview all these witnesses?

But they ended up shutting her down. And in the case of Hutchinson, she was deprived of being able to interview certain critical people, including like territories. Right. In this situation. So the true story is never fully documented for the public record.

Yeah, and there's just I had to commute to Long Beach multiple times to do different things with lawyers and all this. I just just and I felt like how is this how is this ever going to be OK? There's so many layers to this. Like so many people have these stories and these things about multiple people.

And in USA Swimming and USA Gymnastics and, you know, and all the sports news and GB's, it's like there's so much that's going on.

And also great coaches. I mean, my club coach. Oh, my gosh. Just gave me utmost respect for him.

But there's something's got to change. And it's, you know, as we talk about with everything, it's got to kind of wipe the system clean and start over. And that's the hard part, is where do you even how do you even do that when there's been legends floating around forever?

But, you know, back to what you were saying about people, just try and cover things up. I think everybody was just afraid to upset someone else who was afraid to upset someone else, who's afraid, upset someone else. So everything just got swept. Right.

And then there's you who doesn't want to upset anybody either. So you've suffered the trauma of having, you know, been in the middle of that experience itself. And then there's the trauma of now this is public and I'm a people pleasing person who doesn't want to rock the boat and wants to be well liked. And now all this attention is being directed at me. Right.

And, you know, it's not just the text messages.

It's there's other stuff that goes on that people don't know, you know, comments on pool deck and little emails here and there. And, you know, it's like all different things throughout my career that I had to not only dig up and turn in, but say out loud.

And that in itself is like a whole drama reexperience. You know, that whole thing was just really flooded me.

And this was like, what, two years ago, three years ago to two, two in March of gosh, I feel like I think yeah. But the act of actually becoming aware, you know, it's kind of interesting. The awareness piece in sport is huge right now. You hear Jervey talk about like awareness is everything because I was so aware and then I pushed it down.

When I became aware again and everything rose to the surface, it was like, oh, shit, my whole world was just like, holy crap, because you hadn't you hadn't done anything to heal from any of that.

You've just been compartmentalizing it, compartmentalizing it, coping all my coping strategies with food and with exercise. And I became so obsessed with these other things in order to feel like I could run from the things that had really hurt me, that started with this pattern way long ago and just carried on throughout my life. It's like not these little symptoms of things, right? It's like this underlying thing that I just couldn't speak up about or I was afraid of, you know, her people's feelings.

So I never did any of these things and. When all that was unpacked and my awareness was so high and my senses were out, I was so in tune with what was going on and holy crap, this is a big deal. Carolin, like you've been pushing down a lot of stuff that was like a whole tornado of things in my life.

It felt like my whole life I felt like my life was ending, to be honest.

Like at that time in twenty eighteen I was like, I've been essentially abused for a really long time and I haven't even been able to say that. And, you know, I don't and I'm not trying to laugh at that, but I'm just of course I'm not.

But I get so shy saying that because I, I'm very sheepish at the fact that I didn't see that. Yeah.

That I didn't I wasn't aware of how not OK. That was I thought it was normal to be giving comments on people that my coach I thought it was normal to be sent secret emails. I thought it was normal to have text message. You know, I thought that stuff was normal. I mean, they liked me. Right.

And that's and this is what it took for you to confront that.

So on some level, as painful and as uncomfortable as it must have been when all of this, you know, was revealed in the way that it was, this compelled you to face these certain things and wrestle with them so that you could ultimately you.

Yeah, something had to crack.

Well, what's interesting is and I think we talked about this around this time because we had some communication when these articles came out.

Yeah, I was I was confused because although it was picked up by the media, it went from OC Register. I mean, Sports Illustrated, ESPN wrote about it. This was also kind of right in the thick of Ronan Farrow ME2 stuff as well. And I thought this was going to blow up much bigger than it actually did most people aren't even aware of.

So did I kind of went away. So did I. And I think there's so much that has happened in the swimming world that hasn't even come to the surface that could. Uh huh, I did, too. I did, too. And I think the anticipation of that was terrifying, because being exposed like that is there's nothing worse. There's nothing worse in the world than opening up CNN and seeing your name on the first headline.

Mm hmm. I mean, I was sitting. In my apartment on the floor, just like. In total shock, like, what did I do wrong, and that was that was where my brain was at.

But you must be getting calls and texts from friends and getting a lot of support from people, tons of support time like, I mean, through the roof, letters, emails, this whole thing.

But at the same time, where I was that was still. What did you do wrong, Caroline? People aren't going to like you here. You're going to lose you know, your friends will be gone like, oh, no, Michael doesn't know what to say. He you're going to lose his friendship or Alison or, you know, these people that were under Bob and all this.

And I just felt so paranoid that I would be able to have a relationship with swimming again, that if you're not going to be able to show up on the pool deck at Olympic trials to support your brother, and that was everything like that, that feeling that I was losing my world and even though I had ran away from that world, I was losing my world. Yet I had been running away from it for eight years. So I don't know why I thought I was losing it.

But to me, I and I still like, honestly, full disclosure, full of vulnerability here. I still have some days where I'm like. Huh, I wonder what they would think of me if I just saw them at the airport or like, would things be OK?

Yet, like, would things be normal if I ran into, you know, some of my friends or whatever that I seemingly thought in my mind or mad at me, even though I know for a fact they're not.

Yeah, but again, that pattern and why is it that's ingrained in me that, like, I've upset.

You know, the men in power, and that was right, that was the thing, right? It was like these men in power, like I didn't want Bob to be upset with me. Right. That was all I was telling Jack. That was literally all I was telling Jack was I just don't want to have to be upset with me and he was like, he's not upset with you. What a jack. Yeah, what a jackass. Oh, Jack's so supportive.

He's not upset with you. You know, this isn't a bob issue. This is a Sean issue. Like, this isn't, you know, also like.

This is an OK, right, you know, so this isn't about that and like gearing me back toward away from my pattern and toward the truth. Also, like, who cares?

Right. And like, honestly, though, and I remember being like when I got to that point, it was a very much a freeing feeling because I get so proud of how far I've come in two years from that moment.

But I'm I can take myself back to that feeling. And it's just so intense of how.

How much people pleasing played a role in justice and truth, like my truth was tainted by people pleasing and your default setting to kind of defer to men in power?

Yeah. It was all so I want to I want to talk about the two years since, because you've done a lot of work. Yeah. To put yourself back together.

So I want to get an understanding of how you began that process and what it look like for you.

Yeah, because I think this is Olympics aside, like I think this is the piece that so many people are going to be able to relate to.

Yeah, this is the meat and potatoes. I guess you could say the most important part about what I.

Went through, was asking for help. I finally asked for help and I had been in and out of therapy for years, you know, leading up to all this in twenty eighteen. But it was coping. It was I learned how to cope really well.

I started to recognize right around the time that this stuff came out in the news that my body was telling me something right, so I hadn't had a period in 10 years, 10 years, maybe more.

Not one like nothing.

So as a woman to 2008 to twenty eighteen. Yeah. As a woman, you're yes, exactly that long. Yes, so your entire career, my entire post Olympic career. Mm hmm. And I had like very irregular hormones throughout my career as well, like very sporadic. But the feeling as a woman of nothing vibrating through your body, like no hormones, you're just flat.

I was in complete dorsal state for this entire time. Nothing. I couldn't cry. I could you know, I couldn't cry at all. I was, like, barely emotional unless it was something gigantic. But, you know, something that happened, I wouldn't cry. I was just flat. I was I was kind of like dead in a way inside. And, you know, my body was very unhealthy. I had disordered eating. I wasn't eating.

I was doing different things that were not healthy with my nutrition at all. And. My body started to break, so as we know, I broke my heel.

Right before Otello, Rich and I were going to go head on over Ronno Tylo and I Tolu, however he added to that every time I do that, though, I get a bunch of messages from from people in Sweden who are angry that I got on.

So I don't even try.

It's something which led to the lusciously. Yeah.

So but we're just going to be ugly Americans and call it.

We're just going to be ugly Americans. Yeah. So I'm going to do it.

And then you, me and Howth went up to. Yeah. So Döner like to train and you text me like the day that you were going to go and you said, please come, come out, let's just do this. And I'm like, but my heels broken. I'm a mess. This thing just happened like what do I do now.

But like you need to come anyway.

And you were like, I don't think you understand how God said you were for me at that moment. It was like. Somebody believed in me, even though I was like on the ground, literally on the ground crying for, you know, I didn't know, I didn't tell anybody.

Yeah, I didn't show it. I mean, I knew you were going through stuff, but I just liked your energy and I wanted you around. Yeah, I and I and I loved you guys was like, sure, I'm there. So I go up there with my Broken Hill.

And that was the first sign, right. That something was off. But to me, it's just an injury. Get through it, boom. Maybe you can go whatever. So we ended up going to that race. I didn't do it. Hillary ends up being pregnant, so it was all a wash. Anyway, it's perfect. She was relieved when I told her she was like, wait, I'm pregnant.

Oh, OK. Great. So we are on the same page here. So I healed up from that. The moment I held up from that, I got septic me in my right knee from the ocean getting in after it rained is in the hospital for a three or four days. You know, the whole thing went to my body.

Body was just saying, fuck you, it was pit stop.

Yes. Like you've been running. Why are you still running?

Like, you know, let's do something.

So like, I'm throwing all this stuff at you emotionally. But you're still operating as if everything's normal, so I'm going to I need to literally cut you off at the knees in order for you to pay attention and did literally that.

And then the moment I get back from my my knee. I get I broke my heel again, and at that point I was like, holy shit, I think I get this. And it was this light bulb that went off that was like, OK, remember your career, Caroline, when you finally realized the mind body connection and you realize that you couldn't train that way if you needed to be, you know, here. And so you pivoted and you did this.

That's what's happening. Your body is overtrained and telling you something, you know, simplest terms at that point. So what's going on? Let's heal it. Since second heal comes around, Dr. Baden, who's down the street here, he's amazing. He's our Olympic ortho. He works for the Dodgers.

He looked at me and he was like, you need to stop right now, 14 weeks on crutches.

And I was like, no, I thought my life was over. So 14 weeks or whatever the second time.

And I finally healed. I got my periods back. I had started acupuncture and I started sematic experiencing therapy all during this time. So it was what does that tell me what that is?

So it focuses on the nervous system. So they basically it's not talk therapy. So it's not just cognitive behavioral therapy. It does like rapid eye movement work kind of takes you back into experiences of your life and you kind of heal them through going back into them and working through them. It's nasty. At first it's nasty. But you work, you do the nervous system like it's through your nervous breathing and meditation work. But you're working with somebody this whole time.

So it's not just talking and then leaving, you know, which works. But, you know, I think that's fantastic for whoever's choosing to do that. But for me personally as a feeler, you know, as I've explained here, it's like I feel my body feels its way through performance.

It feels its way through everything I've done. It's shown me first before my head has.

And so it changed my life because I was able to repair the trauma that was going on in my system. I mean, it took a year for me to get to a point where I wasn't having nightmares and flashbacks and all the night. It was like. But so during that time, I started all of that, so it was like the in conjunction with healing myself, you know, on crutches, I was able to sit still and work on what I needed to work on internally and.

It was it was so Eye-Opening to me to realize that I. Was finally in alignment with what I do best, and that's working through my feeling and through my nervous system, instead of just trying to solve it all here and think about it and intellectualize it.

You got to put pictures of bananas in your locker. Yes.

OK, get back to that. I need to get back to that. Like, what works for you? That is what works.

And I had been going against what worked for me for so long, trying to intellectualize, change and create all these thought processes that like, you know, I listen to all these things and read all these books and whatever and try and do everything that I was told. Nothing was working for me because I wasn't getting to know myself and what worked for me, I wasn't diving into me can read all the books I why I can do all the things I need to do.

But if I'm not choosing my body in my system, I'm not actually healing. And this topic I'm so passionate about.

But so then is the caveat here is that I get a concussion, so I'm giving blood.

I leave the facility. This corner of this table right here, it's like a cement table. I'm almost six feet and five, ten just. Collapse, Leaning Tower of Pisa, straight to the side, nail my head on the side of the concrete table, hit the floor, ricochets back, hits it again, staple stitches, cracked my skull open.

You just don't get it. You slept. No, I just. You fainted in the night. Yeah, but it was like a straight to the side kind of deal, not just like a collapsed kind of deal.

It was like a boom as hard as possible.

So luckily I was one minute from the E.R. at that facility, so I went over there. You faint, though, I guess I can't give blood, I guess.

Oh, that's right. You were given blood. OK, I can't do that, I guess. Yeah, which is a bummer because I was really excited about that. Right.

Anyway, so, you know, so basically what I gather from this, the universe is like, OK, you're starting to pay attention, but like we need to go a little bit deeper, deeper.

So I'm going to literally knock you out.

Yes. And that moment really did it woke me up in a very harsh way.

So I hit my head and I've never understood a brain trauma until that.

You know, I don't understand what happens with the brain trauma. Nobody doesn't tell you go through it. You can see people with TBI, you can see them go through concussion football players like people, you know, and how like glossed over they are, how you can have a conversation with them. They they appear, quote unquote, stupid or slow.

That is real. I couldn't carious I couldn't string a sentence together. Well, I couldn't have a conversation.

Like if you and I were sitting right here, I couldn't last for five minutes, I would have gotten out and left 2099.

No idea about this. And the.

Yeah. Like right. Christmas. Wow. Eighteen sorry. At Christmas. So like. Well, I'm talking all this happened within, right? This is not too long ago. Yeah, no.

So that took me until like July to heal like a whole year.

This is about a year and a half ago that I felt healed for the most part. And so that was like a whole thing where I, you know, I was just I was really working through what this TBI was like. I couldn't associate with things. I couldn't really understand what was going on. And then when I started to heal, I started to see things differently. I was like, holy shit. Like, I have a lot to unpack.

It was literally like I got hit over the head and it woke me up to different things that I had started.

But that still needed to be done, dug a little bit deeper, so we dug up another layer and we go a little deeper and they say we.

What does that look like? Like working with a with a therapist.

Yes. Sarah Baldwin is the woman I had been working with.

And so, you know, that kind of sets you back and then you have to dive back into things and kind of peel up what has happened for you, because actually, when you do get hit in the head, your brain actually does bring it does ruffle things around and bring things up that have been varied, which is terrifying.

So you had like weird memories that weird dreams were coming back up again, weird memories. And so that sort of healed up there. And then. As I'm kind of getting back into the sematic experiencing at that point, which was exactly a year and a half ago now. All of the sudden, and I kid you not like this, and this happened for a reason, it was the most beautiful experience. All of my trauma came back. Like everything.

Everything came back to. My dreams at night, like I was waking up with I was waking up in Panic's and sweats, and I don't know if you've ever experienced some of that, like PTSD, post-traumatic stress kind of feeling where you just.

You feel like you're in it again, right, and it's like you rebooted your operating system, you get this head injury and you've got to, you know, shut it down and reboot. And those memories which were, you know, maybe in, you know, some subfolder deep on the hard drive or something on the desktop.

Right. Staring at you. Totally. That's a good way to put it. So I I started to to finally understand, OK, so now that I've done the prep course for the healing with Sarah, I've done the prep course, my pre rex. Holy shit, I got to, like, go to grad school for this and it's going to be really hard. And that was. Really, really difficult time, actually, so difficult in a different way, not difficult because I'm going through anything particular, not difficult because it's present moment more difficult because I'm reliving everything again in order to heal it.

Mm hmm.

Because I hadn't and I had been pushing it down and who it has been incredible, like truly incredible for me to go through this experience because it has felt like I'm able to see things.

Actually feel things which, as painful as it can be as a feeler, to feel it again with a different perspective at a different chapter of your life, you're able to understand that that's not OK. And that that comes from somewhere and that pattern is there. And then you can really, you know, work through that, go through that process, unpack that and kind of move on as they come up. And it took me a year, like I said, to not have dreams and nightmares and panic attacks in the middle of the night.

Like I'd be calling I called the hotline on more than one occasion last summer. Every other night for months. Wow, because I thought I your body is in that place again. You think you are going to die like that's what your brain is telling you, that when you are in a traumatic state, you don't think with a certain part of your brain at all. You just think, what do I need to do to survive right now? And I was experiencing it as if it's happening in the moment.

Right. And you learn all sorts of tools, you know, to move through that. But it would wipe me out for days. And this is when I didn't talk to anybody. And this is when I sort of went missing. Like, I just I hid the whole year of twenty eighteen.

Most of end of 18 or 20, 19, I didn't. Everything I did was just to make sure that people knew I was. Fine. Still breathing, yeah, so that process of of, you know, on some level reliving those experiences or just, you know, emotionally confronting them, I mean, that's. Required if you're going to heal, right, like you've got to walk through that process. So what was the methodology or the technique like, or was it a specific like is it behavioral cognitive therapy or what kind of.

Yeah. Vein, you know, were you exploring this?

So it's called somatic experiencing Essien. Peter Levine started. I don't know if you ever heard of Peter Levine. I feel like you would love this field. By the way, if you kind of dive into some of the sea stuff and and more of.

Well, I had I had Andrew Duberman in here talking about some of the, you know, techniques that they use, like, you know, with the way that you move your rapid movement and stuff like that and how that helps you rewire some of your neurochemistry.

Exactly. So you're basically rewiring your entire nervous system to think and to feel something different that you haven't ever felt before. And your body is going to want to not do it. You know, you're not going to want to do it. So half the time we have to stop and start over. But it's a lot of rapid eye movement stuff.

It's a lot of like whether we like ventral things where you're like holding different parts of your body, you recount, you say the event again out loud and she like take notes on what parts of your body were tensing during that process so that you can then realize what parts of your body you're holding on to that trauma. And then you do work on like releasing that area and letting that go, because that's real. I mean, it's stored in specific parts of our body mind, our hips and feet and like lower extremities, so.

So that's a big part of it also, just essentially like I did a lot of like actual active work. So when I would go in with Sarah, I would stay on the opposite side of the room. She would stay on the opposite side of the room.

I would walk a little bit closer and she would do certain things like come toward me or act a certain way. And whatever happened, I would have to stop and explain what that what showed up for me in that moment or like what happened.

And it's I mean, there's days when I would just be like, oh, like just sobbing my eyes out. But like, the whole point of this is to let your system get rid of it so that you can then create space for it to rewire. So you have to start by like sleep, getting rid of it, bringing it up, letting it out and then rewiring it. And so now I'm like, I feel like once a month it's you know, so we've really been down.

But, you know, rewiring at your peak, how often were you holding these sessions?

Three days a week.

Oh, really? Yeah. I was like, well, I'm either going to pay for it now or pay for it later. So I'm sick of running. I was sick of my own bullshit. I was sick of getting injured. I was sick of seeing all these symptoms pop up when really the issue was that I hadn't chosen to heal myself. I had chosen to run. I had chosen to continue to follow the same pattern I did since I was a little girl.

And it's just where can I run? What can I do to just not be seen and just make everybody happy and do other things like, no, I need to choose myself for the first time in a really long time and I can't make excuses anymore. I can't just be like what's happened to me.

It's like, no, it's not work anymore. It's super powerful.

And I love how basically, you know, your life directed you towards this by stripping you down. Right. This was your divine moment, like you were being compelled to confront this one way or the other. And had you continued to be in denial or refused to engage with this, you know, some kind of therapeutic process, your life was going to continue to decline, like your body was going to continue to break down. It just was a matter of how much pain are you willing to sit with before you're actually going to engage with this and like grapple with these issues.

And here's the thing is as women, as men as well, that you pass on everything that you have not healed your system and your cells actually hold trauma and they will actually continue to carry that on. I don't want to have children and pass that on to them. I don't want to be harboring resentment and anger and, you know, all of it and pass it on to the next generation.

I don't want to do that, you know, so I sort of view my purpose in life as as being able to heal so the next generations can continue to heal, regardless of if I have my own children or not.

Like that's my whole mission is how can you create space for people to know that they're able to be whatever they can be, if they can really work on healing their mind and their body together?

It's possible. It's just weird for people to understand it first. It's not you know, it's nuanced. Yeah, it's not. Well, it gives it gives the work that you do.

So much more resonance now with Ri's athletes in the the you know, these young athletes that that you and and Rebecca are mentoring now that you've, you know, undergone this experience, like there's so much more depth to what you can convey. Yeah.

In these relationships and everything has started to make sense. You know, it's all been the same thing. It's just shown up in all of these different ways, in different places, which I think if we look at our lives and we see a thread tied through them, it's usually that thread is one thing that everything keeps mirroring whatever it is in one way or in one direction or another, you know. So for mine, it was this people pleasing thing that that needed to be fixed.

But then as it started to heal, it's this mind body thing where, OK, your whole life has been surrounded about being a feeler. So now let's use that to your advantage instead of using it as you can only please people, let's use it as a way to be in this world, as a way to change and make change. You know, what a relief.

What? And it finally all made sense. I was like, I'm not weird. I'm not weird. It's just it's just who I am. And that's OK. And I don't need to apologize for it anymore.

And what a gift that your body broke down or that you, you know, had the traumas that you had so that you were given the opportunity to confront this, because short of that, you can live your whole life kind of, you know, babysitting these character defects on the back burner.

But nothing severe enough ever happens that compels you to look at it to the deep extent to which you have.

So ultimately, you become. A stronger, better person because of your pain. Yeah, and I've had some people ask me things like, well, what if nothing's really happened to me, to her?

It's like allowed me to see certain things, you know, it's like I know they're there, but nothing's really happened to push me into that place that's like really bad where I need to figure this out.

And it's a great question.

And I don't necessarily know that it has to be that way.

I think what makes it easier, it makes it easier to think people ask me that question. I'm like, I don't know what to tell you because, like, I just was in so much pain, I didn't feel like I had any other choice. That choice is available to all of us at any moment. It's just harder to make that choice when you're not suffering. Yeah, because who wants to do that kind of work?

Suffering really does lead you if you feel like you don't need to. It's like I got shit to do. Right.

You'll continue to write.

And and so I guess the only thing that I could really think to say to someone in that position is like, you know. Maybe you're just trying to think about it too much and you really have to see what your body is telling you, because our bodies are actually giving us so much information that we completely ignore. And you're an expert at that.

You know, well, athletes, but athletes of all people are so much more integrated in that regard, like they've been trained to pay attention to their body and the signals that their body is giving them. So to the extent that you are still refusing to pay attention to that, I think, you know, is powerful. But the greater point being that most people aren't as connected to their bodies in the way that athletes are. So when their bodies are sending them those signals, those signals are muted or uncurable because they're, you know, clouded underneath, you know, layers of whatever else is going on with that person, whether they're just disconnected from that signal.

And I guess the question is, how do you teach somebody that's disconnected from their body how to become connected to their body? There's a ton of modalities, but I think the real truth to that question is getting to know them and what actually what their learning style is so that you can place one of those to it. Think there's different places everybody can start. Some people start meditation. Some people start by changing diet. Some people start by movement, some people, you know, so some people need spreadsheets and other people need pictures of banana.

Yes, exactly. There's so many ways to do this. No one way. But yeah, I think that that's that's something I'm sort of exploring now.

A lot of people ask me that, well, I'm not in tune with my body. So I sort of feel this somatic experience or whatever if I don't even like I don't feel anything.

How has the last two years changed how you how you mentor these young athletes? I love that question.

I think we've incorporated a lot more visualization and imagery, work and breath work into our program, which is huge. You know, truth be told, Rebecca and I only work with two now each because of we have like 35 mentors.

That's so we sort of have to run the business side of it instead of, you know, just mentoring. But my specific athletes, it's changed and that we have conversations about what's showing up in their body. And they're able to every time they do it, they get better and better at first it's like, I don't know, I'm sor I don't know. My right shoulder is kind of sore from 700 butterflied yesterday and now it's more. I was really short of breath yesterday because I was super stressed because I had a fight with my boyfriend or, you know, I and I notice this breathing.

So it's like cool. Mm. And we work on that and then they take that and they apply it to, to their competition and to school. You know, it's against that thing that runs across like how can that work in multiple environments. But it has increased awareness, it's increased awareness for all of our mentors, the mind body aspect in general, knowing that working on an athlete's mind, isn't it? You have to really work on what they feel in their body, what's showing up and how to speak to their body in a way that they can not only become more aware of it, know what it needs, but in a way that they can create worth through their actual being so that it is aligned with their mind and that they find that happening together and things start to click.

It's like, oh, I feel less tense or I felt really relaxed going into that race. What did that feel like? Oh, my shoulders were down and I felt like I could breathe. And yeah, I felt, you know, so they're the recognizing what's happening in their system, which if we're going to change generations in sport, you can't just tell them to think about things.

Mm hmm. You know, I mean, sure you can, but. In my personal opinion and experience, I've never seen an athlete, even if they love spreadsheets and love splits in times like my brother, not be able to tune in to their body. Yeah. In a time when they need to and understand what's going on and what it's telling them, what information that's giving them.

And to be able to do that under pressure or in a high stress environment where, you know, you're thinking brain isn't going to cut it.

Yeah, you have to. Yeah. Because your body is going to tell you first what's going on always. And that's the crazy thing, is if we listen close enough and if we put in the reps, everything is reps, reps, reps, reps.

Like you just got to keep putting in the reps before you realize it.

But if you listen close enough, you're like, oh, I'm super jittery like before this race or I my stomach hurts my, you know, rib hurts, you know, all these things that will give you information. Well, why do those things hurt? What are you holding on to? You know, a lot of swimmers stomachs are a lot of performers always claim, you know, they'll throw it before raises their stomach hurt. You know, those things are telling you something.

It's information, right? It's not bad. It's just information.

It's it's difficult to figure out what's meaningful out of that, too, because, as you know, you're used to beating your body up for so long during training and then you go into this taper phase. Right. And then you're just hyper aware of every little niggle in your body and you're like, there's something wrong because, you know, I my toe hurts or something. And it's, you know, and you got to just be like, no, you're just nervous, right?

There's something wrong with you. You're just hyper aware. You're being hyper vigilant because you've put so much time into preparing for this very specific moment and everything in your in your world, in your experience is super heightened.

So true, because the amount of times I was told, don't pay attention how you feel or don't worry about it.

If you hurt or, you know, don't think about it, don't think about how you feel. And it's so foreign to me. I'm like, what do you mean? That's all I do is I feel I don't understand how am I not supposed to think about how I feel.

But I. You nailed it with that, is it? You become so hyper aware that how can you reframe whatever it is that you're feeling in your system as an OK thing, as something that's just giving you information, accepting it?

You know, the practice of acceptance if you're at a race or whatever, and you're right, knee hurts, but you're behind the blocks. Well, not a lot you can do now. So reps of doing that in practice, reps of doing that with, you know, sports psych consultant, reps of doing that with your coach, like, what is it that that means? How can I reframe whatever it is and that moment through injury or through pain that I can then use toward whatever I need to get done and then address it after if it's something serious, you know, when it comes like injury and whatnot.

But, yeah, that whole field of injury psychology is really cool. And you should pick Dervaes brain on that sometimes.

Yeah, I've never spoken about that specifically with the whole deal. It's for sure. It's really interesting.

Like when I was in grad school. You guys hang out. Do you hang out? We used to work out together and then you started a different gym routine. Oh, you came to my gym? We did, yeah. We were buddies. I see them, you know, at Source Cafe every now and then.

You guys are like neighbors down there.

Yeah, he's great. I love Dovey. He's we've always just had, like, a great rapport. But yeah, that field is really cool.

Well, I want to talk about your relationship to sport now, because, you know, if you scroll through your Instagram, like your you know, you're getting after it, whether it's cross fit or like swimming in the ocean, like you still you still have this profound love for for movement and fitness.

But what's interesting is that it's completely outside of any competitive context. Right. Like, I almost feel like it was a blessing that you didn't go and do Otello because you're not supposed to be your relationship to sport isn't supposed to be about competition. Even if you could have done that from a healthy perspective of not really caring, like, you know about how well you did and just enjoying the experience. I think there's something beautiful and instructive about how you've completely reframed your relationship to sports so that it has nothing to do with any metric other than like Joy.

Exactly. So it's interesting. I started to want to be a student of different things. I I'm very curious. I wanted to try different things because after I broke my heels, I couldn't really do endurance things like run and whatnot like I used to. To me, that was what I needed to get done right when I retired. Right. Run, run, run, run, run and keep running.

And I love running, but I was like, you know, let's see what's possible.

Let's see what's possible with your body and is great as long as you're running towards something and not a way.

Yes, I'm just yes, I'm running awesome for running away from stuff. Yeah. Running is great once you're running away. Oh, yeah, it was fast as hell, so I started getting curious and I started thinking, OK, Caroline, you did the same thing for ever. Let's see what's possible and let's test the boundaries a little bit and see what your body can handle, what it can't learn a little bit more about what your adrenals and kidneys can handle.

Learn a bit about what they can't. So I started taking courses at the gym. I took strength 101 course. I took a strongman course.

I took a weightlifting course. I started swimming in the ocean. What else have I done? I think that's pretty much it, mainly to strengthen conditioning. But those three courses are like eight to ten weeks long each.

So over a span of two years I took these courses was one of those shots that cross Fitzsimon Vaness Duse.

That's right, yeah. So they actually have a two to three gyms, one in Venice, one in Hermosa and one in Hollywood. And so I was up at the Hermosa one and I loved it because all of a sudden I entered back into like eight year old Caroline and it was like, everything's new. I can do whatever, I can learn things. I don't have to be like a veteran at this and like, you know, I can just start over again with everything and feel new and learn.

And I became so obsessed with learning, I loved it so much that I felt like a little kid, again, a student. And I remember just being so sad.

Week eight, graduation day of these courses.

I was just just now getting started of I get this this is a new skill and I love learning new skills and I love being able to see what my body can handle.

And so throughout this process, I have quickly learned that strength, strict strength, is not my jam.

My body is not built to just like back or left. Yeah, very traditional weightlifting. I mean, yeah, yeah. I love it.

I need it, but it's not like what I'm very good at. Loved learning it though. Could really pick and balances out.

But I took a strong man course, which I loved, and it's exactly like swimming movements, so it's like full body, like stones and carrying logs around and stuff like you're doing like caveman stuff.

And I was just in, like, flipping tires and I was just in love with it.

I felt like very prime. It was a very primal feeling kind of thing. And everything is like a short circuit and you really only train it twice a week. It's all you need. Mm hmm. I love that. That was my favorite.

And I could do that day different from four workouts a day. Yes. Yes.

And so about around that time, this was the second course I took around that time, I started to realize, OK, Carolyn, remember when you couldn't train, you know, more than four times a week at Florida once you got down to the wire and understood what you needed? Same thing with this. Don't overthink the fact that you only need to train two times a week here, train two times a week, do the other days, just a longer walk, something smooth, some yoga, you know, and I was in the best shape of my life.

My body loved it. Yeah, I.

And all of a sudden it was like less is more. Feel yourself into this. You don't need to overtrain your adrenals. Don't need to go to town.

You know, with all of this twenty hours a day, kind of you got to unravel all that programming around, you know, the kind of training you were doing in college.

And that's what these courses served a purpose for is. It taught me, again, how to be an athlete. And I didn't have to just be one type of athlete.

I could be multiple different versions of myself and learn what I needed. And it was beautiful especially is going to change every year.

I'm thirty four now. I'm not twenty four. You know, it's going to change. So then I took a weightlifting course which was like snatches and power cleans and I really enjoyed that. That did tax my nervous system a little more for me. So out of learning these things, I really did settle on like couple of days. A week of strength training is perfect for me. The other days round. Yeah. Jump in the ocean. Yes, yes.

Like so on Tuesday, Thursday, Saturdays. Now I walk. Uh huh. And I'm just I mean, I'm like super power walker in South Bay. Just do dude. And I love it rich. Like I listen into podcasts and music and before I know it I've logged five and a half miles just walking.

Just go for it. Our, you know, come back and I feel great. And that's the same with swimming. Swim at fifteen hundred.

Yeah. Get out of the ocean and you're fine. Yeah. Hundred. That's actually a lot of you know. Oh that.

Well you but you look you, I mean you look crazy strong and super fit and happy and clearly you're on the other side of this whole process like with some clarity and a lightness to you.

Yeah. Thanks. I think I have a little ways to go on finding. I don't know, finding my voice is is the right word, but I'm still learning that it's OK to have opinions and still learning.

It's OK to keep my mind. I know I'm still learning it.

People pleasing thing is tough man. I suffer from that tremendously.

You know, it's it's not easy. You know, it's it's hard to, I think with social media stuff because I feel like who I am as a person can't be portrayed in the square. Mm hmm. So it's like about a rectangle. Yeah.

I'm like, what other app can I join that feels like me? You know? I don't know. It's just it's a funny world, but I'm still waiting for my myself to believe in myself a little more with things I have to say and things that I, I can only hope that. Storytelling and sharing experiences will allow other people to feel empowered to do the same, because I think we connect through experiences and through being able to share our lives with people.

So I love what you're doing with profits.

Walk among us like that's exactly it. That's exactly what it is that life is about. Everybody has a story to tell. And how else are we going to get to understand ourselves and others?

It's the only way forward, you know, and I think that's why I'm such a strong believer in conversations like this, because to the extent that your life experiences is vastly different from somebody who's listening, there is a shared humanity. And my hope and my belief is that, you know.

The person who needs to connect with what you have to say is going to connect with it, you know, and it's only by giving a person like yourself enough bandwidth to share themselves openly over time that you allow that process to occur.

Yeah, it takes a minute to get there, too. And no shame if people aren't ready to share their stories in their lives.

I certainly wasn't right for however many years, but if I was to plop you down onto the pool deck of Olympic trials, like right now, like and you had to go see all these coaches and all these old friends, what does that bring up for you right now?

Hmm. In a weird way, it's the first word that came to mind was peace. Like, I just feel OK with it, you know, like I feel like it would maybe not peace that maybe in different. Like, of course you have the what is this person thanking me based on the the the situation two years ago or, you know, based on whatever what is this.

But at the same time, kind of like that's their business, not mine. I'm just sort of indifferent. I think I. I see myself as. A human more than a swimmer now than than I used to, I used to only be able to identify with my worth in life. Mm hmm. With that and that's why it was so confusing, because my worth was identified as something that I was proud of, but that I was also like and that's about it.

That's not me. And I want to be associated with that all the time, like there.

So, yeah, I think the confusing and somewhat pernicious aspect of that is that it's not like your parents are the coaches or anybody is saying you're only valuable to me to the extent that you perform. It's not like that totally. It's a more ephemeral, systemic thing where. You know, maybe it's not even an expectation, but it's just an environment in which you're reared to believe that you're more valuable if you perform at a higher level. Absolutely. You you start to intuit that.

You imbue that and then that becomes like this, you know, seed of of destruction later. Yes. And.

Just on that note, I always, always want to say that you can have your feelings about sport and your experiences and also be so passionate about what you're doing to create change and to create something better for the world.

You know, I. It's like anybody that goes through something and then they become an activist in that thing so that they can create change, but it doesn't mean that they're. Still angry at that, and I think I'm to the point now where I'm not angry at it anymore. Hmm. It's like I'm just in a space of like. OK. Mm hmm. You know, the anger has subsided like that was strong, but now it's just like, OK, like let's do something about this.

I mean, it feels to me that feels honest to me, you know? And I think ultimately with your continued, you know, commitment to growth, that ultimately you could land on that pullback back and just be excited and joyful and looking forward to seeing these people as opposed to indifferent.

Yeah. And I definitely want to get to the point where it's like, oh, yeah, yeah.

And I would have met, you know, evolution is not you know, it's not linear.

It's also not instant. Mm hmm. And a lot of people go through, you know, that path of of well, you know, is this happening now or never or do I give up or do I keep going?

And the answer is keep going. Yeah, you just keep going. Can't gauge the process when you're in it anyway.

100 percent not. You can't really even see it, you know, and I don't think that any human that sits in this chair that talks to you has anything figured out. Nobody has anything figured out. We're all still learning, you know, and and I say that with utmost love for everybody.

I learned so much from people that, you know, speak on your podcast, that speak on multiple. And I'm sitting here thinking how vulnerable it is to hear from people that are still growing. How cool is it that we can learn from people that are still growing and still learning and still sharing and in five years are going to something totally different to say?

I think it's more powerful that way. Yeah.

When somebody, you know, is delivering some message from the perspective of I have it all figured out and let me tell you, here's how you do it. I immediately tune out. Yeah. I want to hear, you know, the honest, vulnerable truth of somebody who's made progress but is struggling and is sharing their experience from the heart. Like that's what I'm able to connect with.

Yeah, we're we're all sharing what we're still processing. It's just a matter of if we're aware of it or not, you know, and we're all sharing things we're still working through.

So maybe a good way to end it is to.

Share a little bit or impart a little bit of wisdom or experience to the younger athlete who's tuning in, who perhaps is feeling like their worth is being measured by the extent to which they're able to perform or who feels like they're not able to be themselves completely in whatever lane they've chosen right now and is trying to figure out how to have a healthier relationship to, you know, maybe it's sport, but maybe it's some other thing that they're involved in.

Well, there's two things, one is that you can be feeling it's OK to feel that way. Your feelings are valid, I think that is very important for a young athlete to feel your feelings are valid.

They're not right or wrong. They're not measured. But learning how to use them constructively, whether it's through sharing or understanding it, communicating and being able to use those and move forward with whatever that is is the key.

So I think we get wrapped up in not saying anything because we're afraid to upset somebody. But if there's somebody that you can share how you feel with and feels like a safe space for you, feels safe to validate your feelings, say it's OK, you feel that way. Let's get a little more information about that. What is it that's really showing up there and really understanding the human's heart? First, they're going to be able to perform better.

They're going to be able to take that and use whatever that is and turn it into something constructive.

Because I think we we get stuck and our feelings and we get stuck just thinking they don't matter, brushing them away, pushing them away, really there's so much power and there's so much information to be had in that. That's beautiful. Regardless of if they're positive or negative, you can take that remolded and turn it into an amazing performance grade on a test relationship with somebody, with your family members, extracurricular, whatever it is that that person's wanting to do.

So that's something I like to say because I think. We're shameful of our feelings, we're shameful of what that means. There's nothing wrong with that, just information. And I wish I would have known that I would have been OK, knowing that however I felt was OK and that it wasn't there nothing wrong with it, it was just information. Yeah, that's beautiful. I think it's super important.

And I feel like, at least in the context of sport, there has been a lot of progress and movement in the right direction in terms of better understanding that aspect of it. I mean, I'm two generations older than you, but when I see, you know, the way that young athletes are being coached and mentored now compared to what it was like when I was a kid, I mean, yeah, I was a long time ago, but yeah, of course, much more.

There's much more to be gleaned and learned. Totally. Mental health is at the forefront right now and people are caring about how people feel and. And you know, this is an important thing to note is that you can be struggling and also be OK with your performances, you can admit that you're having a hard time and also you'll you'll still be OK. You can still be and do great things. I think there's a.

A misunderstanding there that if I again, back to that, if I share that I'm depressed or having a hard time or going through something, then that means I'm not going to it's going to be will impinge on your performance.

Right. I mean, that's the whole message of the weight of gold. Right. It's kind of a call to action to embrace that aspect of what it means to be vulnerable and and to have the courage to raise your hand and ask for help. Absolutely. The shrouding of it, the hiding of it, because you're supposed to be you know, this bulletproof individual is not in service to anybody and certainly not yourself.

And it's not complaining. It's owning itself ownership. You know, I think there's a difference between complaining, I have some athletes say, well, I want to complain.

It's if we can shift it to itself ownership, then we can take that and use it. Mm hmm.

Just because you're having a hard time, have asked for help, et cetera, doesn't mean you're all of a sudden going to perform poorly. Right? It doesn't mean that you're not focusing on your swimming or your baseball or whatever. It means that you're doing something for your mental health, which will then help that. So it's a perspective shift, right?

It does require some level of mind body integration, though, because you have to know when you are copping out, like, am I just I just wimping out here or am I really in jeopardy where I need some outside help? Like, there is a difference. And if you don't have that kind of intuition, then, you know, you might be just, you know, indulging in your laziness, you know, instead of really being in peril.

But that's where great coaches and mentors come in, because if somebody is vulnerable enough to share whatever it is, then they can catch that and be able to change that and turn that into something.

Otherwise, they will just sit in their shit, so to speak, and, you know, let it go to shit and whatever. I'm just copping out, you know.

So if they can articulate that, communicate that information to whomever, you know, coach, mentor. And this is where coaches and mentors can can hear that taking that information and being able to help somebody, being able to identify it without shame and turn it into something better, call them out on what it is in a nice way and a beautiful way, like, hey, you're you're tough. Let's make something out of this. Like, we're not going to let this happen to you here.

That's where things can shift for the positive because you're you're changing the behavior through. Let's act on this. Right. Let's move through this. Let's not tell you it's wrong and just make you sit in it longer. Let's let's make some change here. You know, let's do something. And that's on you. You're the one athlete. You're the one that needs to make the change. I'm here to guide you.

Yeah, well, I think that responsibility, like we're kind of talking about it from the perspective of the athlete, what their responsibility is. But that responsibility also rests on the coach to create an environment that's conducive and safe for that person to do that. And I think that. This is applicable outside of sport in the workplace, like a boss, you know, employee relationship or how management is structured so that the work staff feels like they can, you know, raise certain issues and the manager is creating an environment that's conducive to that.

I think, you know, ultimately leads to a much more effective, healthy place to work or, you know, environment to excel as an athlete.

Absolutely. And that is one of the most important things that I think any organization can hold. Coaches, teams, USA Swimming is that if the standard is held there and if people are all believing in whatever leadership there is and the leaders are able to develop these people, athletes, you know, employees, whatever it is, and to a space of vulnerability, openness and action on what it is that we're doing, not just talking about it and sitting around, it's like actually acting on it.

Whether that action is let's sit with this for a minute or that action is let's take action and do something right now.

Both of those things are beautiful. That's how things develop and.

Yeah, those are my greatest learnings from my divorce. He was just very much either, like, OK, let's now that we have that information. Let's either go this way and act on it immediately or we'll let you sit with that for a second, I'm here, right here next to you. But I'll let you sit with that for a second.

And, like, knowing that I was, like, held in that space, I think, you know, reflecting back, that makes all the difference because either way is an action. Mm hmm. You're giving you're empowering them either way. Right? I got to figure it out on their own either way. But it's the person that's going to hold steady and sturdy there that's holding a leadership standard. Yeah. That you believe in that last thing. Were there any books that stand out that you've read through this process of trying to, you know, manage everything that you've said over the couple of years that you found to be helpful?

Yeah, well, I love yours, by the way, that I just got.

Wish I got it a long time ago. I don't know whether it's going to help anybody with their people pleasing. No, it doesn't.

But but it also does help you feel not alone. So that's huge. The my favorite books are very abstract. So I like Eastern Body Western mind if you've read that book.

The body keeps score huge for me. I'm actually reading Becoming Supernatural right now, which I really love loyalty to your soul.

I read like a lot of mind body style books to where you're integrating like energy centers with minds at work. So it's an abstract way of thinking.

I could name all my books and sports and grad school, but those are just thoughts.

Like I'm thinking more in the context of, you know, somebody who's dealing with these kind of particular emotional things that you've been dealing with.

And I didn't read a book for however many years during that.

I saw your latest Instagram post about that. I read one single book I started reading.

And like when I broke my heel reading Annahar, I stopped doing everything that I hadn't done again to try.

But those are the books I gravitated toward. I gravitated toward books that felt like intuitively they were calling me to their I was drawn to them because they were about the things that. I felt unsign with that I that I needed to understand better about myself, which was that connection between the mind and the body in a way that wasn't just psychology and sports. Like the there was like a very spiritual sense that I could understand a little bit better. Yeah.

About myself. But there are several others in there that I really.

Enjoyed throughout that time, I'm probably blanking on a lot of them, but, well, you can email me a list or whatever. We'll put them up in the show notes. I'll go through my little shell. Yeah, yeah. Got a lot of good ones.

Burkle's reading list from the mind of somebody who didn't read books for six years.

Yeah, it's like just sketchbooks and like. Yeah. Like pictures of bananas. Cool.

So what's left like what's the what's the thing that's tripping you up now or like the hurdle that you're trying to overcome.

Hmm. Were you the last the last part of what I was just talking about, about my voice and finding what it is that I feel.

OK, to talk about it's really difficult, like I'm very comfortable with you, I can talk with you about these things, but I feel like something that I'm really working on and getting over is feeling judged for.

How do you share your story and what it is that I'm you know, that I stand by without sounding like this complaining victim or something?

Mm hmm. And. I would really like to get to the bottom of that. Mm hmm. Because it feels like I get stuck in that space of so much to say and I have so much I believe in that I articulating it still. I don't I don't know. I want to I want to feel confident in that, that it's just sharing and not making anybody feel sorry for me or anything, you know?

I mean, I think it's about intention. Yeah. What is your intention? What's your motivation? What's behind the desire to write whatever it is you're going to write or say, whatever it is you're going to say? Yeah. You know, if it's coming from a whiney place, then, you know, it's going to come off as complaining. But if it's coming from a desire to to share and service to other people who might be experiencing those emotions, then it has a different tenor to it.

I love connection. If I can connect with people, that's my number one intention. I just I love connection. It's everything to me. So whenever I hear people experience something similar or go through something and approach me about it or ask questions, feels like we're human together. I feel like we can be constructive in that conversation and not feel like it's just. A problem? Well, you must get that with rise, though. Yeah, all these relationships with these men.

Yes, I definitely do. And I really enjoy that. Hmm. And I've been sketching more and getting back to my Fetim roots a little bit.

Yeah, I love it.

I just I started drawing just fashion sketches and then I was just like, shoot, I'm just going to draw the body. And that actually started helping me heal my body. I started sketching during my concussion, by the way, because I couldn't formulate words, but that was huge. Wow.

So that was really helpful for me in order to connect with people, because I met a whole new community of people in the art world and that felt really cool to explain and share what it is that I'm doing through.

I'm healing my body through sketching. I'm healing my my body and my mind through drawing the body, through becoming one with my body again that I struggled with for so long.

So that was really cool. And that was a whole new world that opened up my eyes to connection and that there's a lot of there are a lot of worlds out there. Yeah, a lot of people out there. Yes. A lot of stuff out there that I can open my eyes to finally.

Well, as somebody 20 years your senior, I can tell you that there's plenty more out there for you to learn and explore. And I can't wait to see where you end up directing your energy. Oh, thanks. I'm excited for it.

I'll probably call you up for some advice any time. That was super inspiring.

Thank you. And I think it's I think it's going to be really helpful to a lot of people. So I appreciate it. I adore you.

I want only good things for you. And I hope that you consider me a friend and a resource. I for sure do. Thank you so much.

So if you want to connect with Caroline, you can find her on Instagram Carrow Birchall there.

If you're an athlete in search of mentorship, you should check out Ri's athletes Rise Dasch athlete Starcom, which I should have said earlier, is the company that you and Rebecca Soni founded to, you know, be the kind of mentor to young athletes that you wish you guys had had when you were younger. I had Rebecca on very early on in the podcast, and she shares a lot about that. So you can check out that episode as well. Yeah.

And your website, Caroline Burkel, dot com, or you can buy art print, spruce that up your circuit.

Yeah, I am an original. And at some point perhaps.

You know, Tylo, swim, run my life, I'm so down, I'm just, you know, Garraway, Abagail, just it no way.

Ostin the other day I love was like he was all fired up. I loved it.

He's great. He has such good energy. He's hysterical and he's doing his same mission. You know, you went through the same struggles.

Yeah, he's gone through it trying to figure out what his thing is. Yeah.

You know, yeah. I really I always enjoyed him. We got along great. He's the jokester. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. All right. We'll come back and talk to me again sometime. I will. Down peace, Lance. Beautiful soul that Caroline hope you guys enjoyed that, how much you love her? She's the best, right? Be sure to give her a follow on the Sociales at KERO Berkel on Instagram and Twitter, CSIRO Burkel B, you are Szekely.

And also check out her mentoring program. Ri's Athletes at Ri's Athletes Dotcom. Quick reminder of the power meal planner is where it's at thousands of customized plant based recipes at your fingertips with access to nutrition coaches seven days a week, all integrated with grocery delivery. And right now we got a twenty dollar off membership gift card offer. Thanks. Stocking stuffers, people to learn more and grab your gift card today. Click meal planner on the home page menu at Roll Dotcom or go directly to meals dot rich roll dotcom.

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Appreciate the love you guys. We skipped a week of roll on due to a scheduling thing with Adam, but we'll be back answering your questions and talking shop on Thursday. Until then, stay true.

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