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All right, what's going on, everybody? Welcome to another edition of Roll On where me and my hate man Adam Skolnick is sitting across from me right now. My bestie, journeyman, journo, adventurer, author, environmentalist, break down topics of public interest.

Yes, today is going to be a bit of an election extravaganza. So if you're burned out on that, I understand. But we're not going to let this moment pass without sharing a few thoughts about that. In addition to our typical teachable moments, a little show and tell some listener questions and as always, kicking it off with a little fitness check in. But I think today, Adam, we should start with how our mental fitness is doing.

Yeah, well, you tell me, how are you feeling? Where were you when all this stuff was going down? It's been a roller coaster. Yeah, I feel good today. I'm definitely feeling a sense of relief, I feel like I can breathe. I feel calm, like my blood pressure is settling in. And I think it didn't really become completely apparent to me until I was watching Harris and Biden deliver their speeches the other night, Saturday night.

And I could just feel myself settling. And I was much more emotional than I expected to be because I think those speeches were great. Yeah, but in the grand scheme of things, they were relatively banal.

But in juxtaposition to what we've been enduring over the last four years, I felt like they were exactly what we needed to hear.

And and it all kind of like dawned on me how much tension and anxiety I had been holding even while simultaneously trying to create healthy boundaries between myself and the news cycle, you know, out of self-preservation, to just exercise a little bit of self care amidst all the chaos and insanity.

Yeah, it's like we have been trapped in solitary confinement, listening to death metal for four years and then Kenny G in Guantanamo or Guantanamo and then Kenny G came through and you're like, I always hated you, but, boy, it's beautiful.

That's a pretty good analogy, I think.

But no apologies to death metal. I didn't mean to insult death metal like that. How's your how's your mental state?

You know, I'm good now. It was it was funny. Like, I've been very positive. I've been very I've believed that there is a chance to win this whole time. But on on Tuesday when it was not going well, I have to admit, I did not feel like it didn't feel like a win. Felt like we were going somewhere dark. It felt like and I wasn't shocked by it. I'm not shocked by the numbers Trump got.

And we'll talk about why I'm going to get into all of that.

But but and I wasn't surprised at the time. And I wasn't, like, affected like I was four years before, you know, where I was really, really, really upset this time.

I was like, OK, I'm trying to stay on top of it. And then the next day, waking up to better news and then following it throughout the course of the day on Wednesday and into the night where it looked good again, I felt like I could sleep well. I wasn't, like, super consumed with it. And then on Thursday, when, like, we had turned the corner and I think by I forgot what time it was that we took the lead.

We were on our way taking the lead. We meaning Biden, Pennsylvania and Georgia and all of that. Right. When it started looking really good, I started freaking the fuck out, you know, like I was like I was like, is this going to work? And I could sleep. But I checked like three times in the middle of the night. And like, I was I was I don't know why, but I was like I was afraid.

Like it was all going to be like a mirage and evaporate. The rug was going to get pulled out from underneath you. Yeah. And I think that's like PTSD from the experience of of of the last four years, knowing that anything is possible. Yeah. At any given moment. I mean, my experience was a little bit the opposite the first evening coming into the dawning realization that so many people had had voted for this person that I have such strong opinions about was a difficult pill to swallow.

And I've been processing that over the last week. And I have some thoughts I want to share about that. That was a struggle for me. But then the following day, in the days that have followed, I found myself in a state of greater equanimity. Increasingly, yeah. Every hour that passes, I'm with you. And like after that really bad night sleep on Thursday, I just realized I'm too I'm too close to it. I'm too attached to it.

It's going well. I'll just let go and then and I am not even coming close to touching the like angst over who voted for Trump. I mean, like to me it's like one thing at a time. And the one thing is Biden one, we're in a better position today than we were yesterday. There's lots of work to do, but I'm not doing that work right now. I'm going to take a deep breath and be happy where we are right now.

Yeah, and that's kind of where I would advocate everyone should be at the moment because no one's like unless you're in Georgia, there is no big electoral fight any time soon. Georgia is the exception. So then let's let's start to build and figure out the best strategy going forward.

But at the moment, worrying about and, you know, blaming and shaming, I don't think it's the time right now. It's the time is to celebrate and and be content with where we are and figure out how to get forward. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, before launching into the the bullseye. Yeah. This whole issue, while we're still technically talking about our fitness check in.

Oh right. I think we should give a shout out to our boy Dave who's taken pictures over here, who just ran his first half marathon debut by passively a.

Absorbing the podcast content over the last couple of months took it upon himself to start running for the very first time, conquered his first thirteen point one shout out brother to major like a runner.

The big story, the election thoughts. We talked a little bit about the speeches. Yeah, those speeches are set in juxtaposition against this background hum of count. The votes don't count the vote. That's funny. This idea, this trope of media doesn't decide elections. Courts decide elections. I thought voters decide elections, but. Right. All culminating in this kind of glorious, desperate, pathetic display of Rudy Giuliani at the Four Seasons Total Landscaping Company, which is so impossibly delicious.

It's like a step down from Borat to like he keeps finding new ways. It really is like out of Veep. Yeah. And I think the important thing, and I don't want to spend too much time on this, is that it triggers my my kind of instinctual desire for some level of schadenfreude. And that's an unhealthy impulse. Like it's funny is that is I think it's quite beside the point. And to kind of start, I'd like to begin with the experience that I was having on the eve of election night when it became adamantly apparent that this was going to be a very close race, that there was a tremendously large swath of America that were voting for Trump.

And this idea that despite the rampant corruption that we've experienced over the last four years, the blatant self dealing, the incessant lying, the pernicious and sociopathic ego mania, the science denialism, this reprehensibly bungled pandemic response, the utter failure to lead the unabated cronyism, the autocratic self congratulating the climate change denial and the pathetic, utter refusal to concede to reality and instead crouch behind bloviating, bluster and megalomania, all supported by a propagandist media machine called Fox and a lily livered Republican legislature too afraid to challenge the B.B. King and this fome AR 15 armed base caravaning across America and this weaponized campaign of social media disinformation led by Kuhnen and others.

We awake to this realization, this undeniable realisation that nearly half of America decided more of this guy. How is this possible and this was the pain point for me on that evening and as the days unfolded afterwards, we see 70 million votes for Trump. Fifty seven percent of white Americans voted for Trump, 32 percent of the Latin NEC's community voted for Trump. Trump had gains with black, Latin and Asian communities. Mitch McConnell and Lindsey Graham were re-elected.

Republicans retain control of the Senate. Kushner is now pushing for a new Trump rallies. And we even have Emily Murphy, this Trump appointee who's refusing to release transition team funds and this inability to kind of acknowledge that that Biden has carried the day. And all of this leaves me in a place of trying to understand what is going on and what of what all of this means. And I think what where I've arrived is that, you know, the first inclination is the reality of America is not what I thought it was, but I think a more healthy lens through which to perceive all of this is to understand and really like grok that America really never has been the progressive ideal that we hold it out to be.

No. And this realization of just how divided and split we are has shed light on a system of systemic ills that have always been there. Right. And if you were to ask a black person, a person of color, a minority, they would tell you, yes, this is my experience all the time. And I think white America is waking up to a more crystallized. Sense of all of this. Yes, well said, man, a couple of things kind of jumped to mind.

One is I thought I liked it when you read my resume, but when you read Trump's resume, it's even better. I like that, that that soliloquy. I'm all ears.

And I want to I want to, you know, quickly, you know, at some point soon pivot into, you know, solutions, because I have thought a little bit more deeply about this. But go ahead.

But, you know, I think, like I said, I have not focused on on who voted for Trump because for a long time I knew, you know, in my mind, I was never I never really thought, look, it's never as bad or as great as they say it is. Right.

So for years, you know, as we grew up, we've been taught, you know, these myths of America. And there's truth in myth, but it's not all truth. There's truth in history, but it's one perspective of truth. And so we create in our own minds this this this version of America that we experience. But it's never it's never the great ideas, never was the great ideal that they taught. And it's not as bad as we like to think of it sometimes.

Now, you know, it's not it's never it's never as great and it's never as awful. That's my feeling about it. Certainly about America. But yeah, no, it's never been the progressive ideal. I think that the one thing Trump has given us is this revelation of some deep fissures and deep problems that we haven't dealt with for a long time. I think that, you know, four years ago when Dave Chappelle hosted a live right after the election, one of the skits that sticks out for me is him and Chris Rock went to an election night party and they were joking because all the white people were like in tears and, you know, America might be racist.

And they were laughing about it because exactly what you're saying. But but now it's right there out in the open and maybe worse than anybody has thought.

But the the the problem is we need to figure out a way we have such deep problems that we need to figure out a way to bridge this bizarre gap.

You know, I think we're going to get into some some of the reading. But Roxane Gay's op ed in The New York Times kind of encapsulated it for me. And she not she I'm shattered, but I'm ready to fight back. Exactly. Exactly. And she wrote, The United States is not at all united. We live in two countries. In one, people are willing to grapple with racism and bigotry. We acknowledge that women have a right to bodily autonomy, that every American has a right to vote and the right to health care and the right to a fair living wage.

We understand that this is a country of abundance and that the only reason economic disparity exists is because of a continued government refusal to tax the wealthy proportionally.

The other United States is committed to defending white supremacy and patriarchy at all costs. Its citizens are the people who believe in Kuhnen conspiracy theories and take Mr. Trump's misinformation as gospel. They see America as a country of scarcity, where there will never be enough of anything to go around. So does every man and woman for themselves. They're not concerned with the collective because they believe any success they achieve by virtue of their white privilege is achieved by virtue of merit.

They see equity as oppression. They are so terrified, in fact, that as the final votes were counted in Detroit, a group of them swarmed the venue, shouting, Stop the count in Arizona. Others swarmed a venue, shouting, Count the votes. The citizens of this version of America only believe in democracy that serves their interests.

I think that there is some truth in that. Yeah, but I also think it's important to point out in some respects, I think that paints a somewhat unfair picture of a lot of Trump voters. I think there's a large swath of people that just feel very strongly about pro-life and they're willing to overlook all of President Trump's, you know, issues because that is of paramount importance to them. And I also think there's a lot of people who bristle at identity politics.

And I think there's a conversation to be had around the extent to which the overly WOAK community tipped certain voters in a particular direction. Like there's a lot of people who just when they hear defund the police, the lights go out and they don't want any part of that conversation.

And they're going to vote for Trump knowing full well that, you know, he is who he is. And I think that we need to have an honest conversation about the extent to which, you know, these conversations around equality, you know, move us in the right direction or move us away from, you know, the shared common good that we seek. I agree.

I mean, I think they're the progressive. Ah, ah, ah, ah, painting already very bold lines and an us versus them fashion, and I agree that that's why I'm not touching that 70 million number and letting that make me feel worried about the condition of America, because I was already worried about the condition of America. I already know that we have misinformation. I already know that we have division. I already know that we have people in the streets actually already fighting out little skirmishes.

I get it. I know that.

But the progressives who have the biggest ideas on how to fix problems like systemic inequality, whether it's ethnic, racial or economic, you know, fighting climate change, climate justice, social justice, preserving wildlands, preserving marine protected areas, all these kinds of things, these big ideas, it's going to take more than half the country. It's going to take more than 50 percent of us. If they're 70 million over there, we got to get ten. We got to get fifteen million of them.

In order to do that, you have to fundamentally understand and appreciate the importance of coalition building and reaching across the aisle, which gets into, you know, a perhaps underappreciated advantage of somebody like Joe Biden. Yes, kind of unpack in a minute. And yeah, I mean, I agree with that.

And as much as I adore AOC and so many of the ideals that she stands for and I just have so much respect for her energy and enthusiasm and her ability to, you know, articulate difficult concepts and, you know, hold truth to power about all the things that she does when she tweeted the other day that we need to kind of make this list of people and hold them accountable, there's an aspect of that that I can get on board with.

Like, OK, like let's not forget how we got here.

At the same time, I'm not sure that that's really the productive way forward. If we want to establish the kind of coalitions we're going to need in order to enable the change that we'd like to see.

Right. I mean, of the 70 million voted for Trump, 10 percent of them is the stat I heard voted for Obama. Mm hmm. So 10 percent of that 70 seems like that should be up for grabs. We have to communicate in good faith. I'm with AFSC when it comes to finding out who separated children, who made those orders. You know, we have 550 kids whose parents were sent away and deported and weren't kept track of. And now we have 500, I guess, 500 kids here that we don't know when they'll or if they'll ever see their parents again.

I mean, that's a crime against humanity, people who committed crimes against humanity. And I put Kristen Nielsen, who was head of DHS in that category. I will I will gladly put her in there as my personal opinion. And I will put anybody who oversaw that and was a part of that and a party to that. That's a crime against humanity. The only way that you can get redemption and keep going in public life, in my opinion, after committing a crime like that, is to have some sort of justice around it, which is a restorative justice would be coming out and telling people what happened and exactly how it happened and what your role was in it and ask for forgiveness.

But no more denial that this is the same policy that Obama had no more denial that it didn't happen.

So those people, I think they belong on a list of investigators, an investigation should be really conducted and figure that out.

People who are having office jobs, I think that's just a little bit too much for me.

Yeah, we have to be careful that we're not fomenting some form of McCarthyism. Right. That's going to exacerbate the divide that we need to know.

You don't know McCarthyism, but but if there was a crime, I think that's OK to investigate. And if it was just these people worked for Trump, I don't think that's fair enough. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Because what if because the problem is once you do that and then the pendulum swings again, the people that work for UAC are going to be on some list. Right. And that's not very sad. Always it always swings back the other way.

Yeah. I think that there's a short sightedness that these. You know, policies that we set in motion remain they persist when regime changes occur and then they rubberband backwards in the other direction.

We've talked about this before. That's the that's the problem with some of the progressive politics that we experience, is they include ideals that are not liberal.

There is thought police speech, police aspect to it. There is a you know, us against them aspect to it, a superiority aspect to it. And the other side has it, too. I mean, like the right wingers have this really skewed view of what a Democrat is because of the media domination on that side of things.

You know, it's not just Fox News. It's it's the incredible conservative media empire that's all over the radio. It's their incredible manipulation of Facebook and YouTube to dominate there. They've they dominate the media. They they they hit people where they live and they spread messages that are, to us, unbelievable. But if you get them enough, I guess they become believable, like a guy like Biden, who's a center, as you can get, being called a socialist.

It's like if you say the word socialist, enough people, it starts to stick. Yeah, that's the amazing thing. I mean, this guy has been a centrist his entire life. He's the furthest thing from an ideologue. And by just perpetually repeating this mantra that he's a socialist and we should fear socialism, it's somehow becomes true in the minds of millions of Americans.

Right. And the truth is, we've had corporate welfare in this country for far too long. Oil company oil companies get big federal subsidies, if not socialism. Big agriculture companies get big federal subsidies.

Is that socialism is Medicare. Socialism is public education. Socialism, like like we have to decide what is what.

And at the same time, you know, as as Democrats that want to have bigger policy ideas around helping more people and creating a more equitable society, you have to get ahead of that argument.

Yeah. And how do you do it? And I think the Democrats did a poor job at messaging, particularly the Latin community, around this, treating it more as a monolith than it than it truly is. I mean, I think when you look at Florida in Dade County, you have a huge population of Cuban-Americans who are who are scarred by, you know, the the communist legacy of Cuba and any dent whatsoever of socialism is going to push them in the other direction because of their legacy and their history.

That's true. I mean, but that community is is typically Republican anyway. I mean, they were involved in the Bush and Gore recount. And but yes. And I think I read there is this information around there. And then in Texas, there was a more kind of Mexican-American base that was also kind of conservative, moderate, conservative, mostly around pro-life issues, I think religion. But in Arizona, the reason Arizona is looking blue right now is because of younger progressive Latinos.

Right.

So it's it's a moving target.

I mean, like the idea to me, if I could have one solution, it would be two solutions. One a point, Stacey Abrams, as the head of the Democratic Party, let her organizational genius kind of basically take over at the Democratic Party.

And the other thing is, I think field offices have to be opened up in the middle of the country. We can't cede the middle of the country to to Republicans. You can't just say because we're not getting we don't have the media reach and we're not we're not going to catch up to that anytime soon.

So if if they're if people are getting it and their phones are getting it at home, they're getting it in the car radio, they're getting it television. We've got to have people knocking on their door saying, no, this isn't how it is. You know, like you've got to go analog to beat the digital. It's the I'm telling you, like it's like the landline is better tech than our cell phones. I love my landline. We need to have people, but I don't even have a landline.

Exactly. And nobody is probably going to knock on my door. No, I think I think we also need to get a better handle on these digital tools. I mean, certainly there's a lot to be learned and there's so much danger there at the same time. But they're not being marshaled properly, not by not by a Democrat. But I do think there's something about like a more physical presence, more like and you know, my friend Tom Zollner, who's a writer, was volunteering in Arizona, and he was he's he's from Arizona.

He used to write for the paper there and he was assigned to go to Kingman, Arizona. And I guess he was supposed to, like, be at a polling place and at the polling place. They had too many volunteers there. So he got sent somewhere else and he decided, you know, they don't need me there. I'm going to just get out the vote. I'm going to knock on doors and get out the vote. In Kingman, Arizona, small town, rural area.

It's 38 percent Democrat, I think he wrote on Facebook and. He just took it upon himself, did the covered the entire town and got like a half dozen to a dozen people to go out and vote that weren't going to vote because the Democrats that live there thought they'd been forgotten about. They hadn't been reached out to. They hadn't been. I mean, this is according to him. And if that's happening in Kingman, Arizona, and Arizona is kind of a purple state, you know, like that's not good news.

Like the Democratic Party has to do a better job. Stacey Abrams registered 800000 voters or something in in Georgia.

Like we need that kind of energy. We don't need the the cozy up with celebrity energy anymore, because that's part of the resentment. You know, too much there's too much cozying up with celebrity. There's too much cozying up with with Silicon Valley, too much cozying up with millionaires and billionaires and cultural elite. It's too much. Well, it's repellent.

Yeah. For a lot of people. And the most important thing you said is that these people feel like they've been forgotten. And I think there's a lot of people like that. And when you when you're in that place and you feel like you have no agency and you're not being heard and then you're getting messaged with political, you know, I don't even want to call it propaganda, but messaging that triggers that fear impulse or exacerbates that sense of being forgotten, that's going to marshal a powerful emotional reaction and instinct in people.

And the Democratic Party has done a terrible job at figuring out how to how to really answer to that. And I think that's really where the work needs to needs to be.

You know, I agree. I mean, in 2008, Obama was a genius at grassroots organizing, organizing. He didn't take any contributions over a certain dollar amount. He had more small donations than a history of presidential politics, as far as I know, in modern modern campaigns. And he he was a genius at it. And we need to get back to that. You know, we need to we need a return of that. I mean, the one thing that last thing I'll say on on because before we get to the Biden and kind of moving us forward, there was a great Politico article I share with you.

Right? America's early retracing Roehm steps to a fall. Will it turn around before it's too late?

This came out, I think, Monday before the election or on election. It was before I think it was just before Election Day, just before Election Day.

And it's not your typical like we're fucked because of Trump article. This is a historical deep dive into Julius Caesar. It's an incredible read. I mean, I've recommended to some people, some people are scared by it. It's definitely eerie. But what there are these crazy parallels that I never knew I never knew Julius.

You know, like I was forced to read Julius Caesar like Shakespeare. But I don't I don't recall ever knowing these kinds of details. Details I know I sent it to I sent it to Ryan Holladay because I felt like he could have written it because he's so steeped in Roman history. But the parallels between, you know, the end of the Trump era and the end of Julius Caesar's reign are unbelievable. Well, this is FirstRand who's right and this is like a 5000 word, you know, think peace.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I'll just I'll just give you the highlights. The listeners big sex scandals. Julius Caesar was rumored to actually have had slept with a king prior to that. I did not know.

Yeah no he was very famous before he came into office. He was in crippling debt. He was despised by intellectuals. He promoted his own image with these ostentatious festivals and the gladiator games. So the Trump rally thing is there. His opponents ridiculed his attempts to disguise his boulding. He wore the oak wreath on his head because of his bald. So you come over and he took his message right to the people.

It was like a preternatural Twitter he did.

He rallied against the elites and he did it in this something called Contigo. I think it was called. And it was Contigo was a public forum of debate where people from the left, the right, the center, everyone would come together and they'd scream at each other. But but they were actually a part of a political apparatus where ideas were kind of debated there. And some of those ideas ended up making it up to Senate and the Senate would adopt them into law if they were approved and all of that.

So it was this it was a vital political forum. And he turned that completely upside down, where he'd go there with his big following and he turned them into rallies where he'd rail against elites. And basically what happened was everything became so polarized on both sides. So and that's what we're seeing here. Right. So like the right is aligned with Trump. The left is is angry, still angry, grieving, pissed off, you know, celebrating at the same time, dancing in the streets.

But a lot of people are still angry and and feeling like we got our country back when, you know, they're taking they're taking a poll polarized view.

What happened there was Julius Caesar, you know, Rome, the republic crumbled. Julius Caesar ended up returning to Rome with a big army, took over and installed himself as emperor for life until he was assassinated. I mean, that's basically the that progression of. Course, Trump didn't win the election. This was the prediction if Trump had won the election, we were going to be. So now we have this opportunity, right, to to distance ourselves from this Roman narrative.

And that's where we're at. But but the conditions that we have, the polarization, all of that needs to be dealt with. Yeah, it's very it's eerily similar in so many interesting ways. It's a fascinating read. Well, we'll link that up in the show now. Yeah, but let's let's shift gears and get into how we're going to move forward. You know, like I said at the outset. As kind of hilarious as the Four Seasons total landscaping situation is, yes, I really feel it's important to resist that schadenfreude impulse and I think we need to start investing in how we're going to heal as a nation and, you know, coalesce and coexist because we are so split.

You know, somebody who grew up, you know, grew up in Washington, D.C., it was very much an inside the Beltway environment. My dad was a government lawyer. My next door neighbor was a Republican senator. The director of the FBI lived around the corner.

And the school that I went to was filled with the kids, you know, the sons of prominent politicians all across Washington. So I was very much steeped in politics from a very young age. And what I remember most, aside from the fact that I was very up to speed on everything that was going on, much more so until recent years was the the comedy that existed. Across the aisle, Republicans and Democrats coexisted in an environment of mutual respect to the point where, you know, I would we would comedy to dinner parties that you would get and it would be Republicans and Democrats.

And everyone was hugging it up and getting along like there were differences and, you know, distinct, you know, a distinction in how these people would see the world and what they thought was best for the country. But there wasn't the acrimony and the divide and the inability to communicate that we see now, which is really like this disease that's infecting us at a rate that's far more fatal than what we're seeing with coronavirus, frankly.

And I think if we're going to proceed and move forward as a country, we have to figure out a way.

To return to some level of that comedy, and that's one reason why on the eve of the election, I wrote that piece for Esquire, which is kind of about, you know, how to navigate the week to come in the weeks that follow. I wrote that. I wrote that, you know, it's not a political piece in any regard. It's really a self care piece, like how fantastic. How do we maintain some level of equanimity amidst the chaos?

But implicit in all of that is this idea that we need to figure out how to communicate with each other, the importance of meaningful conversation and what we try to do here on the podcast and how we apply. You know what? I try to practice here in our daily lives with the people that we encounter. And it's a tough pill to swallow.

And it's difficult because we're so dis harmonized at the moment and because we see things so differently. And and that difference has been, you know, infected with this you know, this this you know, this sense of of confusion and acrimony that we all feel like it's an impossible bridge, you know, to to cross over for each other. Yeah. I loved Dave Chappelle's opening monologue on Saturday Night Live where, you know, that's a guy who could have gotten up and said all kinds of, you know, hilarious but, you know, divisive things.

And instead, he sees that opportunity to to say, like, I don't hate anyone. I hate that feeling that nobody cares about you.

Which speaks to what we just talked about, this idea that there are so many people who feel overlooked in this world and that we need to find forgiveness and joy in our lives.

Right.

And I think that's super powerful coming from a guy like that who, you know, has become in many ways this you know, this sort of, you know, comedian prophet four times.

He's a healer, is a healer. Yeah. It also helps, I think, part of his perspective. I don't think you could take away the fact that he lives in a small town in Ohio where he's living around in farm country where is red red state. And yeah, and he's had good experiences there and he's had negative experiences.

We talked in his comedy show and and but for the most part, he trusts his neighbors and likes his neighbors. And he just wants to live life and like and enjoy people and love people like we all do.

I mean, that gives us like to me, Joe Biden is such an interesting person and it's such an interesting moment for him. You know, to me, like he ran the classic rope a dope campaign like we'd never seen before. He was never seen for four months. You didn't find him. He let Trump just throw all these wild punches and punch himself out, basically. And the bet was with a few kind of weeks of showing up and in certain states with with Obama and without Obama and wherever they went in mostly Pennsylvania, I think there was a lot of Florida, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin.

Right. If I remember correctly, that that would be enough.

And it almost was not enough, you know, because we picked a candidate that from my perspective at the time when when Biden won, we were picking somebody who was as as as blank as you can get when he won the nomination. Yeah. When he won the nomination, he was just this blank guy that might appeal to people that we need to get to vote for us. And, you know, in a way to get enough Trump Trump people to come on board or to get enough people turn out.

He was nice, a nice guy that that, you know, the give Bernie Bernie Sanders a lot of credit. You know, he he rallied progressives to to bond with Biden. The progressives themselves saw what happened last time and they learn from their mistakes. And then he had Stacey Abrams in these great voter turnout machines that came up and everything came up and it helped Biden barely eke it out.

And at the time, on Tuesday night, when it wasn't looking good, I thought. Maybe the Democratic Party missed the boat, maybe you can't pick a blank guy that nobody really has strong feelings for or against, really, and make that your candidate, even when the other guy is Trump, maybe the idea of picking a guy who's just not that guy isn't the right move. Right? It turned out to be the right move. And and now I think he he's in an incredible position.

And he could be actually the right guy for this moment. Exactly. For the reasons that you're talking about. Yeah, I think there's there's something to be said for that. I mean, I'll be the first to admit that I was hardly excited that Biden was the nominee. Yeah. There's just nothing that inspired me about him. He's fine. Yeah, but here's a guy who's 78 years old. He's clearly lost a step. You know, in that first debate, he did look very old.

I wouldn't say feeble, but not energized in the way that somebody like Trump is. And he's a guy who ran a campaign, you know, as this sort of blank slate individual, very much in opposition to Trump as opposed to what he's for specifically. Right. Yeah. This is a guy who's, you know, the furthest thing from socialist has never been an ideologue in any regard. He's very much a pluralist somebody who's always been a voice of compromise.

I mean, when he first ran for Senate at 29, it was like, what do you what's your platform? And I don't think that he had a platform and he'd probably admit to so much. Right, right. Right. Probably driven more by ambition at that time than anything else. There is no single issue that has ever animated him or any platform that he's put out there. It has been defined, a campaign defined, you know, in many ways simply in opposition to Trump.

Yeah, but he's accommodated the conversation. Right. It was always about, you know, why Trump's bad as opposed to what he's for. Not that he's not for certain things. And, you know, he articulated those throughout the campaign, but that got kind of backtracked by, you know, mattered less. Exactly. Yeah. You know, this is a guy who's about and I think to to your point of like this might be, you know, the guy for the moment, this is a guy who's a negotiator.

He's about procedure and process over passion. He has this life experience that's been marked time and time again with with tragedy and that's instilled this deep empathy that he has right now and the way that he carries himself. And it's very interesting that he's from Delaware, because if you look at Delaware on the map, it's like this symbol of centrism. Yeah, it's right there smack in the middle between. It's neither the south. It's neither the north. It's right in between.

Yeah.

And that is kind of who this guy is, right? Mm hmm. And that's how he approaches policy making.

He comes from that generation that you're talking about, the generation of comedy. Right. Comedy with a T and that's his big thing.

Like his big thing. His big lament is the breakdown in communication in the Senate. He like goes and the lack of protocol.

He like going to this when he was able to attend them. I mean, when he was a young senator. Yeah, he was Amtrak Joe, because he was always going back to Delaware to take care of his, to take care of his boys. That's right. In the wake of his his daughter and his wife perishing in that car accident. That's right.

But I think Bernie embracing Biden, I think you're seeing Mitt Romney and some senators that do like Joe Biden, that that definitely helps, I think. And we'll see. We'll see if he's going to have enough. You know, Georgia looms very large. There's two Senate seats that are out there. I feel very good about where Georgia is. But Georgia, you know and thank thank you, Philly. And thank you, Atlanta, for rising up.

And Detroit, I mean, these incredibly beautiful, cosmopolitan, multi-ethnic cities with incredible black traditions.

Really saved this country, I think that needs to be said, and so I appreciate that.

And Atlanta is this interesting case study because Atlanta is.

Doing very well economically, it's becoming increasingly progressive. It's got an incredible history, positive history, you know, and now it's got the Hollywood aspect of it. There's so much Hollywood production there. Right. And so it's this threat. It's in a in a time when there is a lot of economic crunch pandemic outside Atlanta. Maybe now's not the right time to say this, but in general, over the last five years, Atlanta is really trending way up.

It's like one of these cities that's just booming and becoming a global city. And and it's a success story and that's changing the way Georgia votes. It's very interesting to me that that that's happening. And now we have this moment where in a month, if you get two senators, then Biden's really in a good position to govern. But if you don't if you get one or if you get if you get neither, then, you know, then we're going to see we're going to see if we can bridge that gap.

Well, just to conclude this discussion about Biden being the cipher for the moment, all of these things that we're discussing about his kind of personal proclivities, I think, you know, an argument, a solid argument can be made that he is appropriate for this moment, you know, to kind of hearken it back to to what Dave Chappelle was talking about, what we were speaking about earlier.

We do need somebody who understands that there is this divide right now and can, you know, listen, a centrist isn't the most exciting thing for anybody, but perhaps that centrist mentality can be a force for healing right now. And, you know, I hold out hope and I'm optimistic that he can unite us where where we need it most. We'll see. Definitely. Two final thoughts on that. The first is there's a very interesting deep dive on who Biden is as an individual.

If you want to learn a little bit more, kind of, you know, behind the curtain about what makes this guy tick. Ezra Klein put up a great podcast the other day with this guy, Evan Osnos, who's a Biden biographer. And they kind of talk about the evolution of Biden over the years. And I found that to be very helpful in wrapping my head around who this human being is. And secondarily, I loved how Bill Maher closed out his latest show from Friday night and his closing monologue talking about Blake Shelton and Gwen Stefani and their their their impending nuptials as this symbol of reconciliation between red and blue amidst this acrimonious election, calling them Romeo and Juliet.

You know, he's a good ol boy who sings about trucks and beer, and she's the pop princess Hollaback girl from California. And we need that marriage to work for America. Yeah, right. Yes.

It's a symbol that we can come together with his closing sentiment that actually no president can unite us, but that we must unite ourselves.

Yeah. And it comes down to that like question I have for progressives who are still feeling like they want to.

Yes, we need to push for policies that are that are inclusive and that can help make some substantial, substantive change, but when instead of shaming people who voted for Trump, for whatever reason, I would suggest looking to bridge the gap.

And, you know, because it comes down to this, do we want to be right or do we want to be effective? Do we want to be the ones that are superior or do we want to be the ones that build a better world? And to me, that's what it comes down to. I think that's what you're speaking to.

And I also wanted to say that, you know, you change your entire you pivoted in your podcasts. You took your podcast that was going very well, doing well for you. You didn't have to do anything. You could have stuck with the interview and you decided to tackle some really thorny issues and get into some political discussions that are not necessarily a lot of people would tell you not to have done that. And you decided to do that. And I think that that helped.

Yeah, well, I hope so.

I mean, I always I struggle with this a little bit like we were talking before the podcast. You know, there's certainly more that I could have done, but I felt strongly about making this pivot. And the pivot has been at my peril. You know, I know that I've lost listeners and followers as a result of it.

Plenty of people have, you know, freely left their one star reviews for podcasts to voice their displeasure with me, broaching, you know, politics on the show.

But I felt strongly that, you know, I wanted to have these kind of conversations and I don't want to be somebody who's shying away from them. And I understand that some might find it divisive or or unpalatable because it doesn't match their worldview. And that's OK. Yeah, that's OK.

I mean, my hope is that, you know, look, I'd be delighted if I never had to talk about national politics again. Maybe this is the last one that we'll ever do. Right. But in the meantime, this is what's going on in the world. This is what's top of mind for me. And I think having meaningful conversations that are laced with nuance are important as a prerequisite for us moving forward as a healthy country. And I stand by it.

You know, even if the show has shrunk as a result of it, I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of people who've, you know, celebrated the fact that I'm doing this as well. Yeah, I don't know how it all balances out, but I understand that it's controversial. And controversy is not something that I've ever recorded on this podcast. I've always used this modality as a way to reach the most number of people and to appeal to people of all walks of life.

And I maintain that desire. But it can't come at the cost of speaking my personal truth, whether you disagree with it or not.

Well, what do you think you said you could have done more like what do you why do you have that feeling still?

Well, you can always do more, right? I mean, I wasn't out like I have friends on social media that post constantly their political opinions. And I made the decision not to go overboard on that and to choose my moments and to focus the advocacy that I wanted to do, you know, in front of this microphone, rather than in visual form on Instagram, because I think it allows the the space for that kind of nuance. Yeah. That it that it requires.

But I think looking back like should I have done more like Trapper, my stepson work the polls for three days straight at our polling station, like I could have done that. I couldn't keep track. I could have done. Yeah, it was great, you know, but you're doing this.

I mean, you have a big platform and you're using it in that way that is inclusive as well as influential.

Right.

I'm trying to be inclusive and I'm trying to be mindful that there are all different kinds of people that listen to this. There are plenty of Trump people that tune in to the podcast. My interest is not in alienating them. I want to bring them in. I want to I want to be able to be truthful and honest. I don't want to be editing myself or or operate from a fearful place that I might say something that that will, you know.

Yeah. Upset somebody, because the minute I do that, this whole thing is dead. Like, it has to be a forum for open, unbridled discussion.

Yeah. And if you're posting kind of a photo of yourself with that, who has only one interpretation, I think that gets in the way of a more influential message.

Well, everybody has their own form of advocacy. And I think there are people you know, there's something, you know, like the people that go out and just push it hard with their political view. We need those people on the right or the left, like, that's fantastic. You know, knock yourself out. It's just not it's not I don't think it's the it's the way that I operate. So I would prefer to do it, you know, the way that we're doing it right now.

Well, I think we talked about this over the phone this morning about like the WOAK ultra progressive side. They're really good at flagging an issue that needs that isn't getting the attention it. Deserves and needs to be dealt with, BLM is a great example of that, but, you know, very good at flagging the issue. But to solve an issue, you need more people than that. And I think that's where your influence comes in handy, like you're hoping to solve problems, not just identified problem.

Yeah, and I think I think the you know, the unbridled, you know, super hardcore, you know, whether it's progressive or conservative, that's what gets the issue on the table to decide in the first place.

You need that groundswell of support in order for it to be, you know, on the legislative docket to begin with. Yeah, but then when you confront the process of actually trying to pass legislation or get things done, there does have to be, you know, the ability to work with others.

And I think that Biden is somebody who understands that.

I agree. And then I think we should just before we move on completely, Kamelot, we've got to talk about Comilla, the first woman, the first black woman, the first South Asian woman. I mean, there's so many firsts with Kamala, huh? California's own, you know, our senator that becomes the vice president. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, what's not to love about that?

It's unbelievable. You know, when that video of her when she's calling Joe and saying we did it and she's in her, like, running gear, like, you know, it's fantastic. Yeah.

And the impact of that on young girls, young girls of color, particularly as a source of inspiration, is really a beautiful thing. And the fact that she came out and did her speech and all white, you know, the uniform of the suffragettes, it's like it's a really cool, symbolic thing. And I think she's going to be great.

And my boys are excited because they kind of know Doug a little bit because Doug's kids. Yeah. So they're like Doug and Doug, you you got to be close because you've been since Henry Kissinger, which is hilarious.

Right. So Aviator Nation it is.

Yes, I, I'm a fan. I thought I liked her early on in the democratic process. And then, you know, somehow her campaign stumbled.

But she is she's a great speaker. I think she's going to be able to prosecute some cases for issues that are really important. She can really be influential in the way she presents evidence. And she's a brilliant mind and I'm very excited to have her in there. And so that's pretty exciting. And, you know, we'll see what happens.

But, you know, thank you all for for voting. And and the one thing I'd say to your more conservative listeners is not trying to convince anyone how to vote. But I mean, I do, but not trying to convince you how to think. How to think. But the one thing I would ask you to do next time an election comes up and this is for everybody, is to consider the environment first because you're listening to all you care about animal welfare, you care about plant based eating.

Most likely you care about these issues. The environment is critical to me. It's the it's the issue that we can use to unite more than most people and and pass some really important policies that can be good economically and environmentally and and address climate and justice at the same time. And we need more people. And so if conservative listeners, I would just ask you to really examine the policy, environmental policies of the people you're voting for at all times.

And that should be number one, I think for everybody who's voting, we should all be doing that. I know that's my number one issue and I would encourage it. I think it's everyone should be everyone's number one issue because of where we are at with climate change, because of where we were at with the clock ticking. And I would I would really suggest to people out there that are kind of in the middle to look at that.

Yeah, I would second that.

I mean, I would have preferred a candidate who was more progressive on climate issues than somebody like Joe Biden, somebody who's really on top of it, somebody who, you know, is very single minded about how important that is. But here we are. And I was glad that when he gave up, when he got up and gave a speech that he included climate change in his address. Yeah. And I think that's important and gives me hope. Whoever it was, it wouldn't have been good enough for Grétar.

Certainly not.

Definitely not. All right. Well, let's take a break and we'll come back on the environmental tip. We have a few things to share and we're going to do a little show and tell a couple of wins of the week and take some listener questions.

Stick around. We'll be back in a flash.

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Get a twenty serving pack for free, valued at seventy nine dollars with your first purchase. That's athletic greens dotcom slash rich roll. OK, back to the show. Let's kick it off with a little show and tell, shall we? I'm very excited for you. This is it's a great day. I can't think of anything to show and. Right. Oh, come on. So today is November 9th.

We're recording this on Monday. This will go up Thursday morning. At that point, the book will be in the wild. It's called Voicing Change. I talked about it. We don't have to go on and on about it because we shared about it the other day.

But the interview is officially available through our Web site ritual dot com slash v.c to purchase. We're shipping globally. I'm very excited. We're actually a little ahead of the curve because we already have shipped out some of these books and I'm starting to see them pop up on social media. People seem to be enjoying it, really proud of it. Basically, it is inspiration and timeless wisdom lifted from the podcast. We feature 50 guests over the years with beautiful photographs, and we've transcribed some of the more impactful aspects of those conversations and distill them down with essays.

And just I'm really proud to be able to share what I think is a really fair and beautiful representation of what I strive to do here on the show. And I'm excited that it's now in the wild. It's a beautiful book. It's on my coffee table. Thank you. Fine.

And you also had that great piece in Esquire. We referenced it before and you were here. I mean, that's a big deal like Esquires, right?

You lose a big deal. I mean, first of all, shout out to Jeff Gordon here, OK, who connected the dots there with the editor at Esquire? Because I reached out to them. I'm like, I got this book coming out. I should probably, you know, explore some press stuff. I don't have a publicist or anything like that. And he made some introductions. And the editor at Esquire was like, yeah, we'd love to hear from Rich.

And then I was like, oh, shit, I just write something. And of course, I waited until the last minute. The the assistant editor was like sending me emails.

Are you going to write this thing or does I create these deadlines so that I'm pulling my hair out thinking, what is it that I could possibly say?

And intimidated because of the literary tradition of Esquire?

Like I start thinking about the Thompson, like all these people that have written for that publication in years and.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And got it together though, and shared that piece and they ran it like four thousand words it big. Well here's what's funny. They said, I said, well you know, what's the deadline. And like how many words. And they were like 800 words. 800 do a thousand. So I write the thing, it's two thousand four guys and I thought I'm not going to edit it down. Like I'll send it over.

If they want to cut it, I'll cut it down. But I thought that the version I sent them was was the better version and it was digital, wasn't going in the print magazine anyway, and they liked it. I mean, we did a round of edits and trimmed it up a little bit. But yeah, I mean, that's no small thing for me. Like, it's a big deal. Yeah, it's a big deal. You publish in The New York Times in and outside all the time, but I've never written for a magazine before, so that's why I never had me.

Yeah. Yeah.

I might know someone over there. You might know a guy. But I was going to ask you, can I add magazine editor to my bio now. Now editor. Writer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Magazine which is better, you know, like yes you can. And what's fun is we had this discussion of the writing process. Right, like a quick back, back and forth.

And just like how the low level talk about it is.

Right. Right. That's so painful.

I mean, the truth is I set aside an entire day to write that.

I think I worked on it for like ten hours straight and maybe got up twice to go to the bathroom or something. Yeah, because that's what it takes. And did you outline your in the. I kind of threw an outline together, but you go through that phase of just wanting to pull your hair out and kill yourself because you can't make it good and you don't see the way through. Well, the first draft is never really good. I mean, terrible no matter.

Yeah, but no matter how many times you tell yourself it doesn't matter, you know, that the first draft is terrible and that, you know, and no matter how many times you've seen it through to its conclusion and been proud of what you created, when you're in the weeds like that, it never gets easier.

No, we have a really nice process happening at my place where the first when I'm doing the first draft or starting a project, I'll write all day and for a couple of days and wine, you know, periodically over the course of the day how horrible it is. This is a bad one. This one's not going to be any good. And I say that over and over again. And then my wife's like, but you always say that. And then the next day is the time to understand this time.

Yeah. And then it's different. I go through it, I go, I do three major passes and by the third one I'm like, you know what, this one's pretty good, right?

Because writing is rewriting.

That's the process you outline in April and April tolerates all these discussions, but that's how it does feel, though it does feel like this one sucks and sometimes they're not as good. I mean, that the big thing for me is, you know, you you have this vision of what it's going to turn out to be before you start. And it very rarely hits that mark. And that's OK. That's the process. But like, that's that's the I think that's where the torture lies.

And this is how I envisioned it. This is what I want to say. And then getting there, especially when you're doing a work of journalism and you're trying to find the evidence to get you there, that's the work. And it is hard to get there. And that's that's the torture. Yeah.

I mean, with this thing, though, is it was a little it's a little bit like if you're doing a journalistic piece, you kind of know what the story is. Yeah. You're you try to refrain from having a thesis, but you're out like sourcing all the, you know, information that you can to, you know, establish the facts of what is actually occurring. And then, you know, supporting that idea with this are like, well, what do you want to write about?

Yeah, it's worse. It's harder. Yeah.

That blank page, you know, is just the most terrifying about it. Mean I'm at war with a novel right now. Right. Not pretty.

And, you know, part of my thing going in was like, oh, I want to write something that will, you know, connect and unite people. Yeah, I want to I want it to be well-written so that I'm in service to, you know, that that the standards of something like Esquire that I aspire to be able to write. You know, at that level, I wanted to get a bunch of traffic and then maybe they'll ask me to write something else.

And as soon as I turned it in, I'm like, do I want to go through that again? Exactly that.

Welcome to my life. Yeah. Yeah. And you're rewarded with another assignment. Yeah. And then you have to go through it again. First of all, you achieved all those things, I'm sure. And second of all, yes, I've realized that a long time ago that I chose the one profession where you always have homework. Right. There's always a homework assignment. That's the whole life is exactly the term. This podcast is similar in that regard.

There's always homework. There's always it's like I'm constantly doing homework. I mean, I love it, but it's still it's work.

There's a question down the line that we can get when one of the listener questions, we can kind of tap into that. But our friend Rob Bell has a writing class. So for the reason I wanted to ask you about the writing process and to have this discussion with you is just for your listeners that are curious about about that process. And and if you are Rob Bell, who's a friend of the show guest a couple of times, right? Yeah.

He's been on a couple of times. Amazing, amazing individual. And one of the most gifted speakers and writers that I know. He has such a command over not just the English language, but how to communicate effectively with people.

And he does it in such a seemingly effortless way that almost inspires rage inside of me because his facility is so profound.

You know what I'm talking like he's so good at. You know what? Why is like how do you do that? You should run for office.

Can we get a Rob Bell for Senate? He'd be great campaign, but he's got a writing class coming up. It's going to be a zoom session. I think there are two hour sessions. He's got like a list of dates on his website. We can link to that, right? Yeah, we'll link it up in the show. I think it's this Rob belt. I'm I'm I'm thinking I should probably think you should read it and then I'll report on it to you.

One thing that I did do was take his it's not a course. He's got an online it's essentially an audio book. I think it's like eight hours long. And I believe it's called Something to Say. And it's basically him taking you through the entire process of how you put together an oral presentation, a talk essentially, and how he thinks about that and how he assembles his ideas to create a structure so that he can most effectively communicate what it is that he's trying to say.

And I would say, you know, as somebody who writes a lot and also does a fair amount of public speaking, it was the most helpful and profound not it's not really a lecture, but series or seminar. Seminar.

Yeah, that's a good that's a good word on on how to do this thing. And I can't recommend that enough. I don't know if it's still up on his website, I think was a couple of years ago that I that I listen to it. But I found it to be unbelievably helpful. And I think just it's all on Zoom, right. So you see capping the number of people that can take it. You know, I didn't ask him.

I haven't called him or texted him, telling him I'm going to take it. I will do that. I know it's two hours.

It's fifty bucks. It's it's it's going to be entertaining and informative.

I can guarantee that hundred percent. And the reason I'm interested in it is like I always you know, I was when I first started out the craft of writing, I was trying to write screenplays at the same time as I was. Breaking into writing stories for magazines and. And I read a lot about the screenwriting process, but I didn't really in the journalism process, and I've never really I'm not I'm not one of those guys that dives into the craft, really, I don't.

But but now I guess I'm at the stage in my career that I'm interested in that. And I follow a guy, Chip Scanlon has a newsletter or an e-mail newsletter that he sends out. I can't recommend that highly enough. He talks to really accomplished journalists and he's a writing instructor and teacher and was a journalist for a while. And and that's really helpful. And then I'm interested in writing class and I want to learn more about storytelling now that I'm kind of like mid career.

I don't know why, but I'm just like attracted to the philosophy of it more than I was kind of coming up and. Yeah, well, take the class and then come back and report back. You got it.

Is he doing it alone or is this one of the things that he's doing with Elizabeth Gilbert.

Seems like it's not just his Notley's. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because I know that they did a little bit of a tour together. Yeah. And it was all about like how to, you know, kind of cultivate your creative.

They've done a lot of creativity workshops together. Yeah. Like we went to their live show. We did that at Loredo. Yeah. Yeah. Fabulous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shout out Rob. What's up dude.

Rob Shout out Les while we're on the subject of show and tell, I think you got something else you want to show us, right.

Oh yeah. So. My Instagram wanted me to try Baracas, so congratulation, congratulations, you got delivered to the ad of Darren explaining to you congratulations on the benefits of the algorithm is as made me by this.

Yeah, well, that kid from those three twins from the social dilemma that are standing behind your avatar. Yes. And deciding what to deliver to you, we're like, well, this guy's cohosting the rich roll podcast's.

Yeah. Keywood, I think he'd really jump by then.

The other guy's like, yeah, but he's not nearly as healthy or like he's not.

But that's all the more reason why maybe he needs it. Yeah, he needs verrucas. We're helping him and he needs to be helped churching. So there you go. So you got the trail mix. I love the post. It was promoted. True. But I didn't click on it. And and, you know, I love the idea of this kind of while it looks like a Brazil nut kind of. But tell me tell you, you never tried this.

I've never heard of them or tried it. Oh, wow. Well, crack it open. I mean, first of all, this is the trail mix. Yeah.

Which people that know the show and listen to my podcast with Darren. Apologies, because we talked about this at length when he was on. But there's the nut which is in there. But then there's also the bazooka is like this, not that comes inside a very hard shell. It's like the size of a tangerine. And you need this like heavy duty machinery to crack it open.

But when you kind of take, like pieces of the shell, you can actually eat it. And it's pretty delicious and super nutritious as well.

It's good. So it's pretty good, right?

It's like this unbelievable trail mix. Tastes like a peanut. And the the nuts are smaller than a Brazilian. They taste more like a peanut in Brazil. Not but they have a pretty rich flavor. And this is the shell. Exactly. Yeah. It's like that's a flake flaked off piece of the shell itself.

Where did you find this? Through his superfood hunting in the Brazilian Cerrado. sars-cov-2, I think, is how you say it, and he connected with these indigenous farmers there who've been growing these nuts forever and created a coalition of them to supply this product to markets across America.

And I think it's great.

It's a great product. And they're really they're healthy. I eat them all the time. I love them high in antioxidants. Lots of micronutrients, really. Yeah. What's your verdict as a as a first time imbibers.

Sweet, nutty, crunchy. Definitely more pinetti. Yeah. Mm hmm.

It's like it's like a better tasting peanut. Oh yeah. And that could almost be like a granola.

Like you could put almond milk over that and eat it for breakfast, like a breakfast or just put it in some vegan yogurt. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly, exactly.

I love it, I mean, I'm always looking for kind of snacks like that for the trailer, for whatever. That's beautiful. There you go. Yeah, Daryn, thank you and thank you.

On Instagram algorithm and Duckburg, I think I might have like a vanity URL, verrucas, dotcom rich roll or something like that. Oh really. But we'll put it in the show notes. Yeah.

That was that happened because you were delivered an ad on Instagram that happened because I delivered an ad on Instagram and said, be one of the first people to try this. And which is like I'm like I like to be one of the writers to try something. Right.

I found myself vulnerable to Instagram advertising. I bought a couple of things. Yes. Based on ads that were delivered to me. But then what I found is that when you buy the thing like I bought a sweater the other day about a sweater on Instagram, Birdwell breeches, sweater, like a card like what are those called where they button down the front cardigan.

Yeah, cardigan. You don't need a cardigan. I liked it, though.

I bought it. And then suddenly I got flooded with cardigan ads and I was like, but I already bought the cardigan. That's where I know I just didn't wear you know, I'm not worried about Aaya because it should know that I've sat I've scratched that by now. But what time of day, I wonder, are we are we are we most vulnerable to Instagram ads where we actually make the.

I don't know. But I'm sure the algorithm knows that right at this point. It's logging its logging anyway. Purchases are made.

I have not met you, but I think that you should know that your investment in the Instagram ads that your company bought may be paying off. Yeah, I'm surprised.

I can't be the only one you guys haven't met actually know with all the time you spend. Going to bring them out to the point. Doom will make that happen. Yeah. All right.

So what else do we got here? Let's do win wins of the week. Wins the week. We got to one's obvious and we already talked about it. Well, yeah, but I want to I want to promote my 2020 Triple Crown. Right. I had one other thing. Where's my. Talking about the Lakers, Lakers, Dodgers, right, if I can find my mask, I have a Dodgers mask, if I can find it, I might have I might have put it aside.

Now it's got right here. And Joe Biden, so that's what we were talking about, so my son was born. And I thought. What's a better way for Zuma to enter the world? Then to have the 2020 Triple Crown. Lakers, Dodgers and old Joe DiMaggio. All right, that's your win of the week. That's my win of the week.

Awesome. My win of the week should be obvious. It's Chris Niekerk. The breath of fresh air we all need right now. Yeah, great story. So, Chris, for those that don't know, became the first athlete with Down syndrome to complete and Ironman this past weekend, he completed Ironman Florida and Panama City on on Saturday. And it's just so.

Inspirational is 21 year old kid who earned a Guinness World Record for finishing this race, which is really historic. He did it 14 minutes prior to the cutoff time. So it was a nail biter all the way down to the end. No previous person with Down syndrome has ever even attempted an Iron Man. So that puts them heads and shoulders above anybody else in his category. And this is a kid who survived two heart surgeries, has been in seven schools, has has had all these ear canal reconstructions like it's been a road to get him to the to this place, even walking like he learned to walk late using a walker and all.

Yeah, exactly.

And what's beautiful about it is that it's all founded in this idea of being one percent better every single day. And I think it was his dad or somebody said, you know, like just try to be one percent better every single day. And he kind of cottoned on to that mantra. And that's become like his sort of thing. Now, he had a T-shirt, you know, his kit says one percent battery and all that website, too. And, you know, in a moment of, you know, despite what's going on with the election, like harkening back to what we were talking about earlier, like this divided culture that we're in, like this is this is like the symbol of inclusion and leadership and normalcy that that we can all get behind.

So congrats to Chris. It's so inspirational. And it would be great to get him on the podcast. Going to see if I can make that happen.

Congratulations, Chris. What an incredible accomplishment, man. I mean, what a beast, an unbelievable Ironman. And, you know, I mean, the people that that are out there the longest actually are the are the biggest champions. And that's it. So much harder. It's harder. There's more pain that you fought through.

And you guys out there, eight hours and he's out there twice as long. Yeah.

And it's it's an incredible experience. So congratulations to Chris and his entire family. It's that's a tear jerker, that one. Very much so, yeah.

All right. Few teachable moments before we pivot into listener questions.

Sure. A couple of quickies. I'm not going to belabor them too much. Center for Food Safety sent out a press release. A federal court declared genetically engineered salmon to be unlawful. So the story dates back to a 2006 lawsuit. Or the FDA had approved a genetically modified salmon to be grown in an aquaculture farms, I believe, off the East Coast. I have to check that.

But basically, it was an engineered to grow twice as fast as the typical Atlantic salmon. It would it included DNA from the Atlantic salmon, the Pacific King salmon and Arctic Ocean eel pout, whatever the hell that is.

Right. And so they created this thing to grow faster. Obviously, they make more money and the FDA approved it, even though there was real concern about could it leak out? You know, that's what happens with aquaculture. Sometimes, you know, fish do get out, right.

This will be restricted to these farmed fisheries. Right. And there's no connection between those and the, you know, our natural waterways.

Right. But but I don't know where this these farmed fisheries were, if they were land based or not. That was the idea. If it was land based, that's different. But even then, you can't guarantee that a fish will never wind up. And if it's in a river that's salmon, gobies finds a way. Nature always finds a way. So it's like the Frankenstein fish was. The lawsuit finally was ruled in favor of Earthjustice and Center for Food Safety.

I mean, I personally am in favor of open water aquaculture because the way I see it is a way to reduce the pressure on natural tuna populations and salmon populations.

The two most plaited fin fish in the world are tuna and salmon. And if we can avoid going in and harvesting those populations, you have a better opportunity for their predators to eat, especially when it comes to salmon. We're talking about orca in the Pacific Northwest and elsewhere.

And so I'm in favor of open water aquaculture. I think it's a it's one of Paul Hawken solutions. It's a drawdown solution for climate change. I am in favor of it, especially when it's paired with, you know, kelp growing and oysters and that kind of stuff.

I mean, how do you define aquaculture, a fish farm, any any sort of water based farm, but open water, aquaculture, it's different than how they so that a lot of the bad salmon farms that have caused real problems are so close to shore that they end up polluting the entire coastline and especially in Chile is a bad example. Some bad examples there, Scotland, too, but in the way they're trying to do them now with making sure there's current that's coming through and the nutrients don't.

So you don't just have a bunch of fish poop everywhere. Basically, you don't overcrowd the pens. You can do things. Those that are more humane, you can do things that are more natural and that don't negatively affect the ecosystem. So there are examples of that in Hawaii, company farms in Hawaii compactly farms in Baja. It could be a solution as we get more and more people on planet Earth. And it could be a food solution that is pot that is positive going forward.

I've written about it before. It's in that poky story that we talked about before. But when it comes to genetically modified food, I'm not 100 percent against it. There was the Hawaiian papaya was saved with a genetically modified papaya that saved the entire industry back in the day, but that came out of the University of Hawaii. It was not driven by a business model.

It was driven by scientists trying to save individual farmers, family farmers on the big island where the genetic modifications made it to render it more pestilent resistant, more resistant to a specific infestation, a specific pest that was decimating papaya trees on the big island.

Right.

And so by by creating a hybrid with, like, mouse eyeballs or something, I don't think mouse eyeballs were involved. But like, I understand why people hate that stuff. But I'm not like I'm not an all or nothing guy with any solution. But when it comes to creating an animal, I am hellbent against fucking with DNA.

There's such a hubris built into that. I mean, in this particular case, it had to do I mean, the district court for the Northern District of California ruled that the FDA violated core environmental laws and approving this as a violation of the Endangered Species Act. And my understanding is that attracts back to their inability to establish that it wouldn't cause harm. Right. Right. And they're just kind of the FDA was saying there's no indication that it's going to cause harm, but that that's very different from establishing that it won't.

There's a human hubris and that hubris is just like it's not a problem.

Like, well, just like we'll deal. I mean, if history tells us anything that it's that these things go sideways in a way that you couldn't predict. Yes, you should always beware of the unintended consequence, consequences of good intentions like that.

That's that's that's always the deal.

The second one to rewilding proposition passed in Colorado, Prop 114 to reintroduce wolves to the Rocky Mountains in Colorado. It's very exciting for those who don't know, wolves are basically all but extinct based on settlers moving to the West in 1920. I think there was like between 1915, 1920, there was a real effort to try to kill wolves because they were endangered. They would endanger the livestock and kill the livestock. And so there were no wolves really in the West for a long time.

Yellowstone Park started reintroducing them in the Clinton administration. And it's been such a success. It's it's created healthier elk herds. It's changed the course of rivers. It's it's been one. And the wolves have really taken they found wolves, I think, up in Canada, the Arctic regions of Canada. And they brought them down and they they did a very real careful job on, I mean, top shelf rewilding project. There's a book called American Wolf, which is absolutely fantastic that really handicaps that and follows some amazing charismatic wolves.

And some great scientists highly recommend that book.

Anyway, that's been a success. There's pressure now to take the wolves, the American wolf off the gray wolf off the Endangered Species Act, because some ranchers still don't like wolves there because they will come at livestock. But if they do take down livestock, that rancher is compensated. They still want to kill the wolf afterwards. There's a there's a thing about the wolves, the revenge, the revenge, the revenge impulse.

But Colorado doesn't have wolves. Idaho has them now. Montana has them and Wyoming has them.

And so what is the logistical process of introducing these to Colorado look like?

It's a good question. I think they'll probably what happened in Wyoming is they they took a population that was wild and they reintroduced them and had them in a certain area. And eventually they end up and they had litters and they were monitored and they were chipped and they could be tracked. Right. And I would imagine the same thing is going to happen. The reason there's 6000 wolves now started and in Wyoming and they're in Montana and they're in there in Idaho, there are some are in Utah.

That's all. A lot of that is because not all, but a lot of that is because of the success of the Yellowstone Project, because, you know, wolves have their territories and so Colorado is going to have them. And the point is, is that having an apex predator in the vicinity is good for the ecosystem that's scientifically proven. It's scientifically sound. And I think that's the goal here is to reintroduce the apex predator. Right. That's cool.

Cool. Really cool.

Have you been to Wolf Connection out here? No. Do you know about this place? It's a wolf sanctuary, it's maybe an hour and a half, two hours outside of town, kind of on the way to Vegas.

OK, I can't remember exactly where it was, where it is, but it's this organization. It's mainly this one. Dude, I can't remember his name, but he's got all these wolves and he takes care of them and he takes them in when they don't know what the process for that is. And he's got this, like, kind of educational arm where they do tours. And Mathes, our daughter, many years ago, she was like obsessed with wolves.

And we did her birthday party there. And we took all these kids there and spent this entire day with the wolves. And it was unbelievable.

Is it like a recovery program?

Rogan Grogan's like a fan. He's been out there are a couple of times.

Is it is it like a rescue for people that had wolves and couldn't handle? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some of it is that. Yeah, some of it is that that's cool. But it's it's kind of magnificent. And if you enjoyed that book, which I haven't read yet, you got to check out if that spoke to you, you would, you would I'm sure, enjoy checking that out.

As somebody who just did an animal tracking workshop, what I did was that you come in today and you're like, I did this thing. I was like, don't tell me anything more. Just wait until the podcast because I need to hear about this. So Saturday morning, I left Santa Monica at a quarter to 6:00 in the morning and drove to the Kuwayama Valley, which is in this Los Padres behind Ojai in the Mountain Valley there. I came through from the five, so I actually drove through 30 mile blowing snowstorm because we got some weather here.

And by the time I got there, Biden had been declared it was like very metaphorical. But the reason I was out there was to to take this workshop. It actually is an evaluation, too. And so these experts and animal tracking, that is it this specific tradition of animal tracking, which I had no idea till I showed up there, it connects to the Bushmen in South Africa, Botswana area. And it's their kind of it's it's it's their oral tradition put on paper by a South African naturalist that had done that years and years ago.

And now it's worldwide. And there's these subculture people that go out and hang out and have what they call dirt time, where they look at tracks, circle them and try to decide what animal it is, what foot it is like, what where they were going, what the gate was, and try to really analyze what's happening. And this one area in Ventura County, there's a perennial stream that runs through in a valley and it's incredible place for tracks.

And we saw Mountain Lion Bear, Black Bear track, a lot of bobcat, great horned owl, red tailed hawk, you know, cottontail, jack rabbit. I mean, like sixteen mammal species, eighteen bird species, something like that, all in this one area. And I did it for a project I'm working on that includes tracking and I never done before. But you know, for me a lot of my recreation is, is if it's not running, it's swimming and often it's swimming and diving.

And I love looking at animals underwater. And so this was an opportunity to kind of do that on land and, you know, big fan of doing that. And it was cool. It was it was it was a lot of fun. I turned my ankle at one stage and fell in the river. But let's not talk about that.

I'm on the DL for about a week. Not only that, I was so mad, but you damn it, I was just getting back in shape. The motivation is in part because it's it's it's related to an article that you're writing or something that you're researching.

Right.

It's related to the novel I've been working on. So I have already written a draft of it. I'm in the second draft now, but I never there's there's a character in it that is a tracker. And and like now I'm in I'm trying to meet, you know, beef up some of the finer points now. Right.

The big April go with, you know, because, you know, we had the kid we have. Yeah. So she stayed home. She would have loved it. I mean, it was cold. It was like it was like rain and sleet and 39 degrees the whole day.

But I really enjoyed it.

What was scary about it was I get there. I think I'm going to a workshop that becomes an evaluation for people who want a certificate.

And it turns out like it's really the whole thing is a test. The way they do the teaching is they they line up, say, a half a dozen of these tracks. They find them and they circle them and they ask you a bunch of questions and you write down your answers in your notebook. And then they go back through and explain what it is and why it's why you know, what to look for. So for someone like me who literally didn't study at all and has no idea what they're doing, it was like right away I'm like, what is this?

I don't know. The Bigfoot, it was it was a human foot. I got that one right. I got like fifty percent.

Right. What was the most unusual thing that you learned?

Cat feline's. Their front paws are more compact, their back paws are more elongated, and if you take your thumb out of the equation, a feline track will be asymmetrical. So the second pad will be kind of up. It'll be just like our hands. So if you take your thumb out of the equation, that's how a feline pads will be, whereas dogs won't have that asymmetry. And that's how you distinguish feline from from canine and canines.

You might have a little bit of claw. You can see a little claw, and it's very rare.

You'll see that with feline and they retract their claws, retract their claws, and then birds, you know, there's like a K, I think the Talon for four owls, kind of more K shaped. It's not the classic bird right foot. So not all birds have that kind of classic foot. And so learning that was interesting. You know, I already knew what rabbit poop looked like. So that was it now.

Amazing and yeah. Cool. That was fun. All right. So we are on to a listener question, listener questions. Let's just do it when we go.

And first of Frank, I see you, Frank. Frank from Sokal. All right, how do you reach Harry Adam? You guys are doing well. I'm Frank and I'm calling from Southern California. My question is for both of you. Well, first of all, before I get into that, congratulations, by the way, I think what you guys are doing is such a benefit and I'm so thankful that I have this as a resource. I think it's incredibly valuable to most people to have this kind of guidance available to them and podcasts in general.

It's just been a great resource for me. My question is, I find myself struggling. Sometimes I have a thirst and a desire for self-improvement. It leads me down a lot of different rabbit holes. Many of them result in a beneficial change. And it's tangible in my life. And I, I value that. But sometimes I find that the noise it creates distracts me almost to the point where it's a detriment that I feel like I get easily caught up in some of the tribal battles that are going on in the environment that I'm exploring.

And and I almost have to distance myself from it so that I don't get caught up in the fray. And one of the things that I've done as a result of that is I've deleted some of my social media accounts, Instagram and Facebook in particular, so that I am not distracted. Throughout the day with these thoughts that tend to kind of take me off my path and lead me someplace that isn't that healthy for me. So my question is, Rich, as someone who's dealing with this on a daily basis, do you have any techniques that you utilize to kind of keep you focused on your journey or your exploration or whatever it is that you're you're trying to achieve without getting caught up in the side play in the battles, especially, you know, given the election?

You know, we're all being inundated with ads and all of this negativity. And I really want to protect myself from that. And I'd really appreciate hearing your thoughts on that.

Hmm. Thank you, Frank. Not only is that a great question, I think it's something that we're all grappling with. I feel like you answered your own question in part, like you've already enacted some roadblocks between you and whatever it is that's triggering you.

And I think that's a great start from my own perspective. You know, I try to pay attention to.

When I stumble across something and I have an emotional reaction to it, like that's usually a pretty good indication that that's going to lead to me losing a little self-control over how I'm digesting information. And my overall rule, and I wrote about this in that Esquire piece, is is to try to control the control levels, let go of things that you don't have control over, and understanding that not every issue needs to be your issue just because it is an issue and it is out there.

And as much as I applaud your curiosity and your quest for knowledge and understanding that's leading you down these rabbit holes, it's important to self regulate around that and to erect healthy boundaries. And that requires a little bit of self inquiry to understand when it is that it becomes unhealthy. Because part of it, of course, like intellectual investigation, is part of what's being human. And I think there's something, you know, laudable about that, of course.

But once it tips into you getting triggered in a certain way and whether that means you're engaging with social media, you know, and getting involved in arguments, I don't know. You were a little vague about that. Obviously, that's, you know, going to throw you off kilter. And if you find yourself powerless to erect those healthy boundaries, say like, oh, these are the hours that I use my phone and these are the ones that I don't I've removed these apps from my phone, I've greyscale it or all these other kind of prophylactic things that we can do to try to protect ourselves a little bit.

That, you know, short of that, like you've got to just put it aside and there are certain people that go to great lengths because they feel so powerless around this, like I know people that have lockboxes in their houses that have timers on them and they can put their phone or their iPad or their computer in there and put a timer on it. And you're just unable to access it for really a set period of time. Like, I know people that do that.

There's also all kinds of apps out there that will limit your screen time and like lock your phone down for set periods of time. And that way it makes it impossible for you to be your own worst enemy. I like that one called focus lock.

I'm going to try and basically it will, you know, hide all your downloaded apps for a certain set period of time. And then when that time lapses, they appear like magic.

You know, there's a variety of apps out there like that. So those would be kind of the last ditch efforts when you just feel like things are totally out of control. But I think from an internal point of view, it's about, you know, kind of calibrating yourself so that you don't need to use those things. Right. Like, so if you're paying attention, if you're if you're interconnected enough, you can feel when it doesn't feel right.

And you have to have the wherewithal to say this is not in service to me.

And to put it aside, a book that I would recommend that you read is Digital Minimalism by Cal Newport. He was a he was a guest on the podcast. We went into this subject at length and basically the thesis of which is we have to take control over our digital lives because when we're not and most people aren't, they are controlling us. And it's becoming increasingly more and more difficult to erect that distance between ourselves and that device that is so all powerful.

If you watch the movie Social Dilemma, you understand this very well.

And it's not you know, it's not necessarily our fault. Like these things are designed to, you know, activate that addictive dopamine response and render us powerless from an addiction perspective. So it's not about self flagellation or beating yourself up because you find yourself mired in these battles that you don't want to be in. But it is incumbent upon you to take responsibility and to be in control of them rather than allowing them to control you. So that's the most that I could say in the most general terms about how to do this.

I think because, you know, this is at this peak election moment, we feel like we all have to be so deeply engaged in every nuance of the news cycle. And to step away is to experience foma like, oh, my God, the world's happening and I don't know what's going on. But in truth, these things are going to play out, whether you're engaged with them or not, and to understand how little control you have over them, to exert the control that you can, of course, do that.

But to separate yourself from the results of that and making sure that you're taking care of yourself because you can't be the advocate or the servant or the seeker that you aspire to be if you're a victim of this kind of scrolling culture that we're in.

Yeah. And we all are victims of it to a certain degree.

But whether I relate to this deeply, like this is a war that I waged with myself every single day. Yeah, but how do you engage? Engaging in the battles is a different thing. And I seldom engage and I never go. Yeah, because because I keep it real simple.

From my perspective, it's like I might scroll and check it out, but I don't let it dictate my action. And so it doesn't become that distraction for me, really, just try to keep it as simple and keep it local and keep the focus there, because ultimately, whoever wins any election, it's not going to be the reason your life is the way your life is.

I've just found over time that getting involved in digital squabbles not only completely throws me off my kilter. Yeah, it's just it's not productive. Right. You know, it rarely results in some meeting of the minds between two people. Exactly. But it does require discipline. Like I'll come across a comment or somebody saying something about me that's just so utterly false and rife with, you know, misinformation about me. And it takes everything in my power to just not engage with that person.

But I've learned over time that not only does that, like, really just ramp up my you know, my I become I just get into this very heightened emotional state and I become very reactive. And that person is just seeking attention like that. I'm basically playing into their their goal, which is to get me to engage, to get me to, you know, get all activated over something. And ultimately, there's no winner in any of that.

And you end up being the one who suffers the most.

You're the depleted one. Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. Great question and thanks to the positive vibes, Frank. All right, next one, if you like, this one is one you can relate to as well.

Rich Bayridge. Hey, Adam, thank you both so much for all the work you do. My name is Dad and I'm 24 years old and I'm from border over the last two years that has been growing inside of me for conservation and environmental protection. And I really enjoy photography and being out in nature. Problem is, I'm a third year law student who's on the brink of starting a lifelong career. And the truth is, I'm not sure that's exactly what I want to do.

Every day I go into the office and I feel like my creative spirit is being crushed. I feel as though I'm at an inflection point in my life and then I decide where exactly I want to go in my career. I've been working so hard for this degree for seven years now, but also I'm pretty sure that I want to pursue something that embraces my passions and my creative spirit. So my question is, how do you rationalize yourself that taking that first step into the unknown is what is truly good for you, that despite needing what you worked so hard for all your life, everything is going to be OK.

Thank you guys so much for listening and answering questions. I really appreciate you guys. All right.

Awesome. Is it Gavin or Darvin? I've listened to it a few times and I keep thinking it's Devin. All right. What's up to even if it's Gavyn, I apologize and say, what's up, Gavin? Exactly.

Thank you for your question. I feel highly qualified to answer this one.

It's going to right up your as a former lawyer myself, I've often thought over the years that I should put together a lecture series and take it across America to visit all the law schools and deliver a keynote on the realities of what it actually what's actually entailed in being a lawyer. And the difference between your experience in law school versus what it's like when you're in the practicing world. I wish that I had seen a lecture like that when I was in law school.

I might have saved myself a decade, but we're neither here nor there with that. The first thing I would say is, you know, I'm compassionate to your dilemma because I have lived in that very place. The good news is you're only 24 years old. You've got your entire life ahead of you and you have the opportunity to to be patient with all of this. I think that at this point, you're in your third year of law school. You should see your way through law school.

I don't think you should drop out of law school like you're almost done at this point. You should finish your law degree because you're so close and you don't have to practice if you don't want to practice. You know, even though I found the practice of law, you know, not to my liking and I felt ill suited to it, I don't regret going to law school like law school taught me a lot. It taught me a manner of thinking, a way of thinking.

It taught me how to write clearly and argue a point. And there's a lot to be said for that. And I think that my law degree comes into play today as a podcast or and as a writer and somebody who writes books and is trying to, you know, articulate ideas for the world. Like I credit my law school training and experience as a benefit to all of that, even though, you know, I spent a lot of years chasing a career that ultimately was not in service to, you know, who I wanted to be in the world.

So I think you can begin first and foremost by perhaps expanding the idea of what a law degree can do for you and what it can be. It doesn't mean that you have to just go work in a law firm. You know, perhaps your creativity could be sated by pursuing, you know, a legal career in conservation advocacy or environmental protection or an environmental law. God knows. You know, we need some passionate, young, good lawyers who are well versed in how to best protect our environment.

And maybe you could find you know, I'm sure you've probably already thought about this, but a way of merging that passion with your training could be something to consider. And you know, that aside, if that's not doing it for you and you really do want to, you know, seek out something that's more personally satisfying outside of the law altogether, I think it's OK to it sounds like you're already employed because you're saying you're going into the office. So maybe you're working while you're in law school to try to learn as much as you can in the situation where you are right now.

And I've said this before on the podcast, but to to live as cleanly as possible, like, I don't know if you've incurred any debt for law school, you haven't. Good for you. If you have try to pay that debt off as soon as possible, because the Lenar that you can live, the more opportunities you can make yourself available for, like you don't want to get caught up in a situation where you're in service to, you know, a certain kind of lifestyle that is befitting like a young lawyer because you're trying to.

Keep up with the Joneses, so you're releasing a certain car or living in a posh apartment, all those kinds of things, to the extent that you could cut all of that out and put yourself in a position where at any moment you could just pull the trigger and get out, like that's the best advice that I could give you. And then again, being patient with yourself like you don't, it's OK that you can't see your way through this right now.

So I would go easy on yourself and, you know, relinquish that pressure that you're shouldering that you have to have it all figured out. Right now, you're 24. I didn't figure things out until I was 40. Now, Lord knows that took too long. But, you know, I think it's OK to be in this, you know, questioning, inquisitive phase that you're in right now and just continue to ask yourself those questions.

And when you feel an impulse that's pulling you in a certain direction to say yes to that and to investigate that and and indulge that like, you know, I think, you know, to the extent that you're pulled towards the environment or photography or whatever it is like, even though you're in law school and perhaps you're practicing on some level, like carve out the time to continue to, you know, fertilize that that kernel, that that interest, because you never know where those things are going to lead you.

So whether it's a side hustle or a hobby or just something that you've got on the back burner, stay in contact with that because you never know where those things are going to lead and to keep your options open. Right. To pay attention to what the world is throwing in your direction so that you can be open and flexible and able to say yes to certain things when they come in your direction.

Really well said. The Earth definitely needs a good lawyer. I will say that. And there's interesting philosophy that's kind of happening in law and international law where ecosystems have a right to exist.

There's like this new kind of area of the law that's being explored.

And so that's interesting to me. Like like, you know, you can't just log a forest without the forest approval kind of idea. And it's very out there and abstract, but it's actually taking root like a natural resource has its own right to live its own right. Right to survive.

And there are lawyers working on that kind of interesting, intricate legal like in the way that a corporation is given personhood, that a forest could be given personhood. Yeah. To combat that. That's super interesting.

So there's like there's like a trip, there's some stuff in there. And, you know, the Natural Resources Defense Council is a wonderful organization. And what they do is litigate cases in favor of of of Earth and defending the environment. Earthjustice is another one. There's places that need lawyers, but that doesn't mean you have to be a lawyer.

And the only thing I'd add is just reiterate what Rich has already said. I mean, I think of the Ani DiFranco song where she where she said, generally, my generation wouldn't be caught dead working for the man and generally agree with them. Trouble is, you got to have an alternate plan. And you know, when I first decided to become a writer, I didn't make a living as a journalist or as a screenwriter any of that. First, I was writing grants to make a living.

So you have to have that plan. You have to figure out what you're going to get into and how you're going to pay those bills and keep the lights on.

But that even if you have to do that and maybe law that's you can never regret the steps you took because they're going to you're going to use that training at some point. And there's something that you are going to be able to use from law school, from this training, from this last seven years of working so hard. That's going to help you keep the lights on until you figure out where you're going next. Yeah, but it sounds to me like you've already made your decision to me.

It sounds that way. And you just are looking for the permission. And I give you the permission to like we both do, to take a step into into the direction of your dreams. Do it. You won't regret it. And but it won't be it won't be easy necessarily. Right. You know, I had a whole eviction notice phase, you know, like it's not always easy. And sometimes you're going to feel like you made the wrong decision if it goes the way mine went.

I mean, I certainly I felt that way at times, but. So you just know that going in.

Yeah. I don't think that there will be regret at taking that leap into the unknown. No, but I think there perhaps will be regret if you don't. And if there's anything that I can tell a young 24 year old as somebody who's now 54.

Now's the time to do it, like when you're 24, you have so little responsibility in the world compared to what it's going to look like later. So if there's ever a time where you're liberated enough to take risks.

Twenty four is the time to do it. Yeah. And seize that opportunity.

And like Adam said, that doesn't mean that it's going to all unfold in front of you and that it's going to be easy. It may be the hardest thing that you ever do and you're going to have to pivot 20 more times. But it does sound like you've already decided this is what you want to do and you're using the word. How do you rationalize it? I wouldn't I think that's the wrong word. I think justify or permit might be a better word to use.

Yeah. So I give you permission to do it.

Do it, man. Yeah. And let us know how it goes. But finish law school. Definitely for school. You don't quit something.

Pull a rip cord on law school. You're in your third year. No, I mean like, like I said, like I had to, I had to stay in the job I was doing for a period of time to get out. There's a transition period. It doesn't have to be tomorrow that you stop going to that office.

I was still practicing law when I was writing, writing, finding ultraright. I you know, I you know, that idea that's in the book, there's a tension between we can close with this idea, like there's this tension between wanting to be responsible. So you're straddling two worlds, right? Like you have you you have your foot in the new thing and you're still holding on to the old thing. Sometimes that's the responsible choice because you got bills to pay.

But at the same time, on an energetic level, there's. There's something about that that inhibits the growth, because as long as you're holding on to the other thing, because you're afraid to let go, because you're uncertain about what the future might look like or what it will bring, you're actually preventing yourself from really embracing that opportunity.

So at some point, you do have to let go and not be straddling, you know, two different worlds at the same time.

But that's not to say that I'm giving you permission to be irresponsible in that regard, like their timing is important with these things.

Yeah, no, I totally agree. And for me, the timing just becomes it just like happen like that other work just stop coming, you know, and like that that could happen. So it's a it's you know, it's cool is that you're 24 and it's all out there for you and it's very exciting time. So try to also enjoy it, even though it's stressful. Cool. All right. One last one we're going to join Hydrogenate on.

This is Michelle. I live in New Jersey. I'm a mom. I'm also a vegetarian who's trying really hard to be vegan. And I'm excited to try the shrimp cheeses that I just described to. My question is, did you find your relationship strained, even foreign or just a lot more work when you had young children? I'm a mom to a one year old boy and a three year old girl. I work full time and my husband cares for our children.

We we're both amazing, caring, loving, present parents. But we are really struggling to find time for each other to even show our love to each other. We honestly don't even find any time to talk to each other anymore. I hope you and Adam can share some advice on how to keep connected during this really difficult time. This also really magical time, having two babies that need our attention and care 24/7. I know this time is temporary and our kids will get older, but our marriage really needs help now.

I hope this plays on the air and I look forward to hearing your advice. Thanks so much.

Thank you, Michel. I can hear the the strain and the pain in your voice. And, you know, to kind of speak to the first thing you said, I mean, you open this question by asking if my relationship or Adam's relationship has been strained or more work when you had young children. And it's like, of course. Of course it is.

I don't know anybody who, you know, wouldn't agree with that. Right.

Like, how's it going for you, Adam? You've got a baby, right? We got into it this morning.

Yeah. You know, like like over something minor. Part of it is the exhaustion and the tension from just being over tired and overworked. But for the most part, you know, with us, it's going it's again, to keep it simple formula, but we don't have to. And after listening to this call, I don't think we're going to have a second child.

Yeah, well, you think when you have the second that it would be double the amount of work, but it's actually exponentially right. I like that. It's not a linear equation and it's quite overwhelming. Like my heart goes out to you. I empathize with the situation that you're in. It's it's a super hard thing to do. And it appears that your relationship is at an inflection point like this tipping point where you can feel it slipping away. And what's tricky about all of this is that when you have young children, it feels indulgent to exercise any self care whatsoever because it's all about the kids and because it's such a heightened experience, it's very easy to lose sight of checking in with yourself, let alone checking in with your partner.

But I don't have to tell you that the well-being of yourself and your relationship is absolutely critical to the welfare of these young humans that you're trying to raise and is indulgent as it may strike you. You've got to carve out time to tend to yourself and to tend to your relationship.

And it may feel like that's impossible because there is so little time, but it's really a function of priorities. And when you have babies, life is happening to you more than you're kind of in control of your life and without kind of putting your foot down and erecting, you know, that like sort of setting in motion that priority is, you know, creating that priority for yourselves. It's never going to happen. So I think it begins with communication, acknowledging that the relationship is faltering in some regard and having a conversation with your partner about how to get back on track.

I think that's the first step. And then saying, like every day or, you know, today at 5:00 or whatever it is that you can work it out, that you're going to sit down and it's not going to be about the kids. It's going to be about, hey, how are you doing? Like, how are you feeling? Like, how can I help you? How can I be make your life a little bit easier. How can I be in service to what you're trying to do and to develop some mutuality around that because.

Without that, it's never going to happen, like relationships so easily can become transactional in this regard, and it's just about logistics and it's just about the kids. And then you're going to wake up one day and realize you're not in love anymore. And that's not because something actively occurred that divided you. It's it's really like a war of attrition. What do you mean by transactional transactional in the sense that every conversation and interaction that you have with your partner is about the calendar and like who's taken the kid there?

And, you know, who who has to go to the store and, you know, running that running the the household, you're essentially OK and you think that you're engaged with your partner, but you're not, because what you're overlooking is the most important thing, which is how you're connecting with each other.

You think you're communicating because you're talking, you're not actually communicating and that, you know, maybe it's impossible for you to have a date night. Like, I don't know the particulars of your circumstances, but you can't tell me that you don't have 10 or 15 minutes to focus on your relationship, you know, on the daily.

And I think it's critical, like I've said this before also. But we have this idea that our lives are static. You know, when I was in when I was in rehab, a counselor said to me, every thought that you entertain, every word that comes out of your mouth, every behavior that you engage in is either moving you towards a drink or away from a drink.

And I think that's super wise advice that's applicable across the board to life. Right. Like, we think we're in a static situation on married to this person. I'll always be married to this person or I do a podcast. So I'm just going to do this podcast until I die. Like we're always in flux and things are either growing or they're regressing. Right. And the more you can kind of be consciously aware that. That static notion is a fallacy, it's an illusion.

The more I think you'll be motivated to pay attention to your relationship, to understand that, you know, without that attention, that it's going to wither, you know, it just it just will.

And you've got to have the wherewithal, even when you're exhausted and overwhelmed to make it a priority. So, again, I don't think it's I think it's less a time management thing and more of a priority thing. If it's important to you and it sounds like it is or you wouldn't be asking this question, then you can find the time to do it and you can impress upon your partner how crucial it is at the same time. And hopefully, you know, he feels the same.

Yeah, I don't feel as qualified to answer this since I'm in the in the foxhole right now where the thing that makes you attack makes you more qualified.

Maybe it does, but I will say. That I feel for you and I appreciate the question, and, you know, we communicate all the time about as much as possible about how we're feeling just this morning we did, but sometimes we don't.

Sometimes we miss it sometimes.

Sometimes it's impossible to be an amazing parent all the time and be fully present all the time.

Right. And that's cool, too. It sounds like there's a predator around that. And we don't I don't I try not to put that pressure on myself because, like, I know that I'm I'm I just try to be as positive and and happy and and present with Zuma. But I'm not, like, trying to reach a certain standard outside myself. It sounds like you have high standards for parenting, which is awesome. Your kids are going to benefit from that.

But I would I would I wouldn't want you to put such a high standard on it that you guys are both so worried about that, that you're missing just the enjoyment of being. And I think one thing we're doing well right now, we're doing a lot of things well. But one thing that we're doing well is we're not putting a lot of pressure on things. And if something's going on with Zuma, we're not stressing out so hard on it. And, you know, like the first couple of days notwithstanding, that's a very stressful time.

Like, we're all gonna learn how to roll with the triviality, but like not turn them into major crises. Right.

We try not to turn anything into a major crisis, but I try to do that on my own in general with my life anyway. It's something that I've just learned is like is is is keep it calm. And when it comes to real life issues like this, I'm real good in a crisis because of that. And so not trying not to make it. Make it worse than it is, because maybe, just maybe the answer to this is actually simpler than you think, maybe maybe it's not as bad as you think it is.

Maybe it's just that you're not communicating as well as you want, or he's not up for the communication that you're busted and you're exhausted. And so maybe the answer to this is a simple thing and a positive thing, and it won't be a really hard thing to decode. And I would keep that in mind because there is something to the police sebo fact of like mindset. And to think they know. You know what? Our marriage might need help right now, but we're not in a critical phase, we're just I'm seeing it going in a certain direction and it's time to kind of right the ship and take it lightly.

And I would I think I think taking it lightly in both the way you parent and the way you work with one another could be something that I would offer, could be a positive solution. But again, I'm not trying to speak from any real knowledge base other than just my experience the last 10 weeks. So take it or leave it, please. But, yeah, that's my feeling.

Well, I think that if you feel like it's beginning to falter, that interrupting that flow with some kind of prophylactic solution is super important. Yeah. You know, and I think that if that means just opening the channels of communication or perhaps that means going to therapy, like, I think everybody should go to therapy and everybody should go to therapy before there is a problem. Yeah. You know, this is how you learn how to communicate effectively and learn how to, you know, understand the signals of your partners.

Like, you know, there's so many things that can be mined from that experience. And, you know, it doesn't have to be, you know, stigmatized and it doesn't have to be, you know, because you're in a crisis.

So, you know, it's just they're just tools for how to better live together.

And, you know, in closing, I would say it's important to understand that, like, this is temporary, like you're in a very heightened situation and it will get easier. But to not use that idea that it's temporary as an excuse to put off dealing with whatever's going on in your relationship. Like, I think that's sort of an instinct like, well, this is really hard right now. I know our relationship isn't going great, but let's just get through this now and then we'll deal with the relationship.

I think that's misguided.

No, if you know, when you get to that point, it may be, you know, in a in a far worse situation and God forbid, beyond the, you know, that point of no repair. Yeah. If you know, needs to be addressed, then by all means address.

It has to be it has to be a priority now.

And when in doubt, if all else fails, you can start a podcast with your partner and that will force you to talk to each other.

There you go. That sounds about Julie and I have our deepest conversations. That's very healthy.

You know, I. I thought I was in therapy right now. Twice a month I come to therapy. It's the ritual podcast.

I don't go that hard on you.

No, no. It feels good to talk to you. On that note, let's let your client is your therapist hard on you?

Well, I do like my I do I do group therapy now with a bunch of dudes, OK? And and a therapist. And, you know, I get feedback. Like, I come in and I say, here's what I'm doing. And like, isn't this great? And they're like, really like, you know, like, did you think about this? And I'm like, no, I never thought about that. Like, I get called out on my bullshit and that happens to me and in in 12 step also.

OK, but it's very direct in this therapy group because we just share about what we're dealing with in our lives and as parents and as professionals or what you know, what we need feedback on.

And what's constantly impressed upon me is the extent to which I'm unaware of my blindspots, which is why you go right. Right. Like, I don't want to go and get a pat on the back. I want to go and, you know, let people know what I'm going through and have them point out to me what I'm not seeing. And I think that's the real value. That's one of the real values in it.

Very interesting when I hear about that some time. But I would also offer one last thing. Have you seen working moms on Netflix? If you've not seen working moms on Netflix, it's a hilarious female driven show created by Catherine Reitman, who's connected, you know, the daughter of Ivan Reitman, legendary Hollywood director, and Jason Reitman, the great filmmaker. And she stars and and it's hilarious. It's all about women having babies and navigating life's problems and very, very funny, sarcastic ways.

And that could be a good little blow off steam. I'm watching that with April and that we laugh.

It's hilarious. So that could be a good ultrathin. I haven't heard of that. Working moms with an N. All right. Right on. All right. We're ending this thing. How do you feel?

I feel good. It's been man, it's been a long four years.

It's been a long four years. It's been a long two plus hours. Every time we do these, I'm like, this is we're only going to be doing this is going to take an hour.

And then these things are always like two hours.

I don't know. I think that I think we're both long winded. You turned in 2000 words for 800. I do that all the time. Yeah.

Yeah, that's all right. To be continued two weeks from now. In the meantime, give Adam a follow at Adam Skolnick on that role. If you want your question, answer, leave us a voicemail for two, four, two, three, five, four, six, two, six. Don't forget to hit the subscribe button on YouTube, Apple, Spotify, wherever you enjoy this podcast. Send us a comment or leave us a review. As always, check the show.

Notes on the episode page at WorldCom will have links up to everything that we talked about today.

And in the meantime, pick up voicing change. Yes, damn it. I worked hard on this book.

It's a beautiful book. You got something to be proud of. People are enjoying it. Rich roll dot com slash v.c to check that out. Shipping globally. What else?

That's that's how we set it all. He set it up. And this land. The plane. All right. I appreciate everybody who worked hard to put on today's show.

Jason Carmello for audio engineering productions shown and interstitial music. Blake Curtis for videoing today's show. Jessica Miranda for graphics, David Greenberg for portrait's. He's taking pictures right now of Georgia WELI for copyrighting. You could do the rest in your BBC Voice Dekay for advertising relationships and theme music, as always, by Ty Trapper and Ari.

Thanks for the love you guys.

See you back here in a couple of days with another amazing. I don't know who's coming up next. We'll figure it out. It's going to be good, though, I promise.

Peace, Lance.