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All right.

Adam and I are back and once again it's time to take Roll Call.

We're back, we took a little bit of a forced hiatus, we're going to talk about that in a second. But Adam, how are you doing? Doing great, man.

Feeling good. Great to be back in the in. I don't want to step on. It's great to be in this particular room.

Yes. Right now. Yeah.

Good to see you. My friend Roland is resuming. Not only that, we are in a brand new studio. This marks the debut of the Rich Roll podcast HQ. I did record a podcast the other day, but this is going to go up ahead of that. So I think officially this will be the first podcast. Well, I know it will be the first podcast that everybody gets to see the new space. So it's very grateful and excited about it.

This is like this is it feels like home already, doesn't it? It does, yeah. What do you think? I love it, man. I mean, I remember you showed me this space a few months ago. It's happened very quickly and maybe two months ago. Yeah.

I mean, we've been working on it for a while. It was well under way when you saw it for the first time. But we did hit our stride and this final push, we got a lot done pretty quickly. So it's pretty great. We got our boy Dave over here. He's making a video that's going to take everybody behind the scenes on the whole thing, which I'm pretty excited about. And it's amazing. Now we have our own podcast headquarters.

People don't realize, like, well, maybe some people do. But you've gone through this is at least the fourth space that I know about that you've been functioning. And five, if you count two spaces or six if you count three spaces for it. Well, I mean, originally it just moved wherever the guest was. Like, I was sort of a traveling salesman with the thing for for probably the the vast majority of the history of this show.

I mean, I would do them occasionally at my house, but more often than not, even when they were in Los Angeles, I would go to the person's house and set up there, which was kind of fun because you're in their environment. So they're already going to be more relaxed. And it just and it's cool to, like, go see how other people live, like the guests that you're going to you're going to talk to. Yeah.

You get an introduction into their space, which I think helps inform the conversation. And then when I would travel and go out of town and I still do this like I have a travel case and I bring my stuff with me, but then it kind of migrated to this office. That's where we did the podcast. I had this little Janki office and it's like, don't call it Jenky. It was a little Janki. It was fine. It was good.

Listen, I was very grateful to have a space outside of my house to work and I would do it there. Then we moved it into an open room and our house when the boys moved out and that's where we started shooting video. And that's what most people, you know, have seen when they've seen the YouTube video version of the show. And then when the pandemic hit, we had to, for understandable reasons, you know, not be having people come over to the house all the time.

So we moved it to a temporary space, which is where we've been hosting it for the last nine months or whatever. Yeah. Meanwhile, while everyone's kind of sitting at home trying to figure out what's next, we kind of went bold and locked down this 2000 square foot warehouse and began building it out.

And here we are today into the, you know, Rogan Rogan ditch town.

So now you're the biggest producer in the West Valley. Listen, I think the lesson in it is I could have never envisioned or anticipated or dreamed that it would become a thing that would even be deserving of something like this. And just by showing up for it, you know, day by day and building it brick by brick, it's like the natural evolution or progression of what happens when you put in a lot of work and kind of stay out of the results.

Like I've been doing it for the process, you know, the love of the process of doing it and just been on this journey. And it feels like I just woke up one day and here we are. But, you know, it's been eight years at this point.

We just eclipse the eight year anniversary of the show and going hard to go on hard.

And, you know, I take from it is you could have easily said, OK, the pandemic hit at first you were doing things virtually like everybody else on Zoome, and then you kind of figured out a way to do it safely out of the house to keep everyone at home safe. And then it came into this. So it's like you I mean, obviously you're in a good position to be able to do it. But you were thinking you were able to kind of flip something that could have been kept other people cramped and their vision kind of insular and not looking to to jump ahead.

And you were able to kind of figure out a way to make this whole thing a move for you in a positive direction. Yeah, I mean, it's it's a risk.

But there is something cool about investing in ourselves, especially in a moment where there's a lot of uncertainty, you know, so so it's new for me, you know, like the largesse of the whole thing, like getting used to it and.

Feeling deserving of it is where you had that power for myself, didn't you have that? That was my house. Yeah, yeah.

You know, more to be revealed. A lot. Like I said, we're going to do a video and show everybody everything. We've got a cool lounge here, and it's just a great place for guests to come and feel comfortable and and also a place where the team can come and work also. So we're not just always a distributed group of people working on the show.

Excellent man. So it's such a quicker drive for me and it's right over the hill from my favorite dive spot.

So you and me both. What dive spot is that? I'm not saying, OK, you don't want to have stalkers showing up, rolling up on you when you want to roll up on me. What do you want to escape for a cocktail or something?

I don't do cocktails because I've done cocktails right after, but OK. Yeah, it's not the typical thing right now. I have to get back and make sure our baby is taken care of. Yeah, you do have to do that. So let's get into it. Well, the first thing I want to say is that we missed the other week because you had a scheduling thing and we had to push this. And there were a lot of people that were like, what happened to roll on?

Like, I need my role on fixed. So that was nice. Thank you. I'm glad that, you know, people are enjoying it and feel like they missed it. Yes. That must feel good for you, too. It does feel good. It was. It was. I didn't expect that. But it was just one of those things that scheduling came up last minute. I couldn't be avoided. And and it's nice to see that people are needing that fix.

And it's nice that we're delivering something to people that they are enjoying and that I'm part of this great show. I feel like you're a podcast or now I.

I am. I am now a podcast. I can't deny it. That's true. I like it though. I like this form. I like new media.

Well for people that are brand new and maybe this is their first episode of Roll On. Adam Skolnick is the person you've been hearing. He's my BFF co-host on this kind of tangential edition of the show Journey Into Adam is a journalist. He's an environmentalist. He's a contributor to The New York Times. And outside, perhaps best known as the co-author of David Goggins mega hit memoir Can't Hurt Me.

And this is the show where we talk about current events, kind of things that are top of mind.

We share a few lessons. We do a little show and tell, and we answer listener questions. And it's a cool opportunity because this show is always about the guest to share a few of my thoughts on subject matters that the audience seems to be interested in.

And we're going to start today with a with a big story, right? Yeah.

Well, before we get into that, I just wanted to let you know that you have a couple of new super fans. Speaking of the fans that like role on my parents, Rudy and Richard. Yeah, excellent.

What are their names? Trudy and Richard. What's up, Trudy? What's up, Richard?

And they haven't come over here. We'll give them a tour. You know, when I started their show, they would they would like OK. Oh, definitely. When they're next time. When it's safe. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But like when when you first had me on, they watched it on YouTube and they thought it was it was cool that I kept turning up on the thing and they never really brought it up again. But somehow lately they've been listening to not just this episode, but all these back episodes.

They've been like diving into the back episodes. They are buying the products that you are selling or that you're advertising.

Is your did your dad have a woop and he's like drinking Athletica and stuff, but he's using the new role on that advertising and he's using the he's oh the native deodorant. That's iha my my my mom bought it for him. She's, she wanted it out of the Thom's racket. Right. She got into the native and the vegan energy bars I think are on his list.

Cool man. Yeah. That's very cool. So yes. They're your newest super fans. They're probably listening to a back episode right now. They're deep into the archives. Right?

Well, I think we'll do maybe we'll do. This is actually going we're going to be taking a little bit of a hiatus from this show, actually, cause I'm going to take a break. In January last year, at this time, I took all of December off and I was in Australia and it was really great to just hit pause on my professional life.

I think we all need that at times in our life, and I intend on doing that again just in January rather than December. So I've been working my butt off the last six weeks or so, along with the team, to get all the shows essentially produced. So there'll be no interruption in the podcast. The shows will go up as usual. There just won't be any roll on because these are recorded contemporaneously, right when we publish them.

So, Jan, you're saying I don't have work in January, I'll see you in February. All right. So so we got to take it down. We might sneak one more in right now.

Maybe we failed that. We filled the schedule out for for January. No room for another roll on in January. All right. So I thought I had. Well, make it count today. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's get into it. Let's do it, man.

So the first thing that I wanted to talk about was a story that that that that definitely impacted me for personal reasons and for broader reasons as well.

And that is the passing of Tony Shea, who was the founder of Zappos who passed away on November 27th. He was forty six years old because the stated cause of his death was related to smoke inhalation from being in a fire. But there's a lot more to this story. And I think there's so many interesting threads, tragic threads to pull on to kind of understand what happened here, no doubt.

When I first heard the story, and I'm not I'm new to him, like I wasn't really familiar with Zappos, really, and I read The New York Times obituary, which didn't get into kind of the more the dark side of what was happening. But it kind of you could hint at it. You could tell something was going on. But but, you know, I was really interested in. I like iconoclasts who are thinking differently, who, you know, the wealthy guy that lives in Airstream trailer that is revitalizing an entire area of Las Vegas.

That's interesting to me. You know, someone who is interested in capping his salary, if not his entire compensation, who is interested in not having a corner office but wants to sit in the bullpen. Right. Like these kinds of things of how he ran his company. Interesting to me. So, you know, you forwarded this Wall Street Journal story that goes deeper into him in ways I had not read about. And I think that's what we wanted to get into that, too, right?

Yeah, of course. So the Wall Street Journal article is called The Death of Zappos. Tony Shea, a spiral of alcohol, drugs and Extreme Behavior. But before we dive into that aspect of him, you know, perhaps I can share a little bit of of my personal experience. I only met him once and very briefly. So I can't say that that I that I knew him in any meaningful way. But I will say that he was definitely a maverick and very beloved when he passed away.

The outpouring of love and support for this guy was was unbelievable on Twitter. Like it seemed like, you know, every single person that I follow had had some story about their experience spending time with him.

He was truly a remarkable person and obviously an extraordinary businessman who in many ways as an early pioneer in the e-commerce space, revolutionized that consumer experience by doubling down and really prioritizing the customer service aspect of what he was doing, which was essentially selling shoes.

That's what Zappos is by making all of their customers feel heard and respected and really, you know, almost like they were part of like a thing like a community or like a family. Like he would personally respond to customer service emails himself and like 2:00 in the morning. Right. And by, you know, really making that like the focus of how this company did business, they were able to grow it into this massive thing.

It seems like because he had that successful first company that he sold for, what, 200 something million dollars to Microsoft. It's almost like Zappos became his his petri dish for how to run a company and how to how to be a business person and in a new kind of way. Right. Right, right. And like he said, he would sit out in the bullpen with everybody else and he didn't have a corner office.

And he was a guy who loved people. And, you know, for reasons that that, you know, we're going to get into like needed to be with people all the time.

He didn't like executive executives, like they called it that like, you know, they call it monkey row or something like that. Is that what he called something like that? Yeah, he liked that better.

So I first when I met him, it was because I was invited to come to Zappos as part of a kind of curated weekend called the Downtown Project. My friend Amanda Slaven, who had a company called Catullus Creative, would invite a group of people like a couple of weekends a year. I don't know, maybe she did it every couple of months to come and visit Zappos, but also get a taste of what Tony was doing in downtown Las Vegas, which was truly extraordinary.

This is a guy who had his company headquartered in Henderson, which is kind of like a suburb of Las Vegas. He decided to move the company into a pretty decrepit part of Las Vegas, the downtown area that's well off the strip, which was the original kind of city of Las Vegas that had fallen into, you know, a significant level of disrepair.

And most of the buildings down there were abandoned. And he envisioned creating this campus, kind of like NYU, where Zappos would be integrated into the city amongst many buildings where people would walk, you know, or ride bikes around in between them with an effort of really revitalizing this part of the city. And he personally put 350 million dollars of his own money into doing that. And when I visited, which was many years ago, I'm sure it's much cooler now than it was then.

It was pretty amazing what he had accomplished, like he was taking over these, like, rundown, you know, one story or two story motor lodges and turning them into startup offices. He was putting seed money into all these businesses, like everything from some new technology play to a coffee shop. And all over the place, there was this sensibility, like an energy, like something. What was happening here is like it's very hipster, like Viksund, like Williams skateboarders and things like that, and like artists, you know, painting murals on the side of buildings.

In addition, this thing called the Container Park, which was kind of like a little plaza built with shipping containers where there were little businesses and restaurants and, you know, like frozen yogurt and like T-shirt stores or whatever in this kind of park where he.

With which he surrounded it by with like these amazing sculptures, he had this huge praying mantis metal sculpture that I think he got from Burning Man, like would breathe fire at night, like at dusk every night in Beijing.

And it was it was kind of an amazing thing.

And as part of this weekend tour, which, by the way, that's where I met Robinson for the first time, like I met some cool people, I met Kevin Pearce, who was the snowboarder who suffered a traumatic brain injury and then became the subject of this documentary called The Crash Reel, which if you haven't seen it, it's amazing. He's really cool. Him and his brother were there. You know, Robin became a very good friend as a result of that experience meeting her on this weekend.

But they took us to there's a condo building on the edge of the city there. He was building condos, too, right? He was building all kinds of stuff.

Yeah, he was building it. But there was a pre-existing condo building.

And on one of the floors, I think it was the top floor he had he had busted through the walls of like I think almost every single apartment on that floor, maybe not all of them, but a significant portion of them to create one massive condo that was kind of like a commune. And that's where he lived like it would. We were there. There were all kinds of people staying there and people would come and stay for a while and leave like it was a transient kind of communitarian approach to living, including like a room where there was like flora growing on the ceiling, like like plants were growing from the ceiling down.

And he would kind of wander through. And, you know, and this is this is the CEO of this massive organization. So it was kind of frat house meets hippie commune on some level meets real world.

Right.

And there's there's like a I think there's a certain unique courage to live your life differently, especially when the stakes are high and you're like this crazy high net worth individual to continue to kind of iterate and try things and experiment.

He also was one of the people that backed the life is beautiful of that, which was kind of like this Koczela sort of weekend concert situation that also had speakers.

And I spoke there and it was like I met Bill Nye and I met Dan Price, who was that CEO that instituted the salary cap and has all his employees starting at a base salary of 70 grand. Like I've met tons of cool people as a result of Tony Shey indirectly.

Was that also in Vegas? The life is beautiful. Yeah, it's it's in Vegas as well. I don't know if it's still going on.

I think it's I think it still is the obit I read prior to the one I read this morning. But the obit I read was said something about how, you know, for some reason he when he revitalized downtown, it was going well. But then there was the the backlash. Oh, you're making downtown this one one place that's affordable for people to live now unaffordable. So then he created the trailer park and moved there. And that's kind of a way to say, you know.

Yeah. Other options. Yeah. He lived like in this Airstream village. Right. And I think there was low income housing as part, you know, incorporated into that. Right. I remember. Yeah, I think that's true. I just remember thinking if I was 23 or 24 and interested in startup culture or wanted to do something artistic and different, I would have considered moving there like it was a very supportive environment for that kind of thing.

The housing is super cheap and there was this community of people that were doing, you know, it's rare that, you know, when you think of trends or movements like you think of Seattle during the grunge period or like Greenwich Village during, you know, Bob Dylan.

And those don't happen that often.

Like where would you point to now where there's some kind of emergent artistic sensibility percolating up out of out of, you know, some someplace off the beaten track that then has a downstream significant impact on culture. Like that's like lightning in a bottle. And I did have that sense that he was trying to craft that there. And there was an energy that's something like that was going on.

Yeah, I can't even remember what I guess you could say Williamsburg in the 2000s and. Yeah, and but you can't really point to like some big cultural event that came out of that. Right.

I mean, I talked to I talk to my you know, my boys are musicians and we have this conversation a lot. I'm like, where would you go right now? Like where is the music scene happening? And they're like, it's not really like that anymore because of the Internet.

Yeah. It's like like, remember when, like, went back was coming up in L.A. was having a moment. Yes. What was that place in Silverlake where all those bands would be.

No, no. Star starts with an S. Yeah. Yeah I think of it in a second. But there was that kind of feeling then or when the Wallflowers were playing it, Canter's, you know, like great.

I love. Yeah, it was there are those moments where you're like something is. Going on right now, that's even that's more like the seeds of something cool. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, that's that's the feeling that I got in this downtown section of Las Vegas. So in any event.

But what was coming out of that was a new way of managing people, right? It wasn't so much a cultural product like music or art, but what was coming up out of that was this new way of of running a company. Right. And that he that he was able to express in book form. He was speaking about it quite a bit. He was demonstrating it.

It was a his life was kind of not a performance at all, but like a demonstration of a new way of being.

Right. If you want to be a CEO, which you don't really see, usually what you see is Yats and you know, Davos, right. You don't typically see Airstream, you know, be on the same level with the people that you're managing. You don't typically see it. And when you do, it's news. That's why the seventy thousand dollar a year CEO is news. Well, the legacy.

Yeah, you know, he he was at the forefront of creating that kind of idea of being a different type of leader. And I think you see that in startup culture now. And I would suspect that he deserves quite a bit of credit for that. I mean, this is a guy who he you know, he did do events where he's sitting with Bill Clinton at some big fancy conference, but then you'd see him on stage somewhere else. And he has a Mohawk that's like two feet high, you know, like and he was a partier.

Like, that was a thing. You know, this guy loved to be with people. He loved to be out late into the night, you know, having a good time. That all becomes relevant in the wake of him stepping down as CEO. We should mention that he sells the company to Amazon for like one point two billion, you know, makes a ridiculous amount of money, continues to be the CEO. But I don't know exactly when he stepped down.

But it was sometime last year.

Yeah. And with that, as you might imagine, it appears from reading these these these long read articles on his life that there was a bit of an existential crisis about what to do next. So he ends up moving to Park City. He surrounds himself with quite a few sycophants who is paying their all on his part, on his payroll, essentially, like I think for a lot of them, there was something about he would say, tell me, you know, what your dream salary is and then he would double it.

Is that right, buying homes for some of these people?

Yeah, he was buying up Park City and kind of the same way he was downtown. Right.

It was an idea that he was going to try to replicate. I think that was his idea.

Like, I want to replicate what I've done, it done in downtown Las Vegas, in Park City, except that Park City was very different community. Yeah. Yeah. So he moves there.

Quite a bit of partying is going on. Meanwhile, covid hits and for a guy who is an introvert, but also.

Seemingly needed to be around a lot of people being deprived of that took its toll on him emotionally in a pretty significant way, and he starts doing all this weird stuff, like experimenting with all kinds of psychedelics and, you know, really amping up his dosage of whatever he was taking and doing. They said in The Wall Street Journal, also drinking more.

Right. Yeah, I guess.

And then doing all this other weird sort of behavior that I guess you could shroud in in soul searching or even biohacking.

But. Right. But I think is indicative of somebody who's who's in trouble, who's having a hard time and searching for answers outside of himself. He ends up dwindling down to like one hundred pounds. He's doing these crazy fast and he's experimenting with oxygen deprivation. And that ultimately is just late at night. Yeah. And he's locking himself in sheds and he's obsessed with candles. And he like he starts fires and he's breathing in the smoke, like that's part of the oxygen deprivation thing.

Ultimately, it appears that that's what contributed to his to his passing. Do you want to get into that now?

He there was a fire in New London, Connecticut. Right. And one report is that he barricaded himself inside this. They call it a shed, but was like a three bedroom structure. I didn't know that large. I was envisioning some little tool shed.

Yeah, I know. I know. Well, maybe in New London that sheds or three bedroom or something, but it was like a structure because the three bedroom structure was on fire, according to that story, and then family couldn't get to him. And so originally the reporting was, you know, it was just accidental fire, whatever. But then one firefighter did report that that the person had barricaded himself inside. That doesn't mean.

But didn't he also tell his friends, like, check on me every five minutes? Yeah.

So it's hard to it's hard to say that there was any kind of suicidal ideation, like it wasn't a result of that, but it was some sort of stunt of some kind. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, he was he was I mean, among his experiments, he was like trying not to urinate, you know, he was attempting to induce hypoxia.

I think that's what that was all about. OK, but, you know, ultimately dies as a result of complications from that smoke inhalation.

Right later. Yeah. I'm only forty six years old. Meanwhile, there was indications that he was in trouble. There's this letter that's been published where Joule, who he was friends with, wrote him a letter basically saying, look, man, you're going down the wrong path here. Like I'm worried about you and you're surrounded by all these people who won't tell you the truth about how you're behaving.

So it wasn't unnoticed, but he didn't have people in his immediate circle who could intervene and, of course, correct him. You know, and I think the larger issue here. Well, let me set it up by saying this. There's this legendary story that Tony used to tell about the moment when he sold Zappos to Amazon, where he traveled to Seattle to pitch Zappos to Jeff Bezos, who, like I said, ultimately acquired the company for a crazy amount of money, like one point two billion, I think.

And in the middle of the presentation, Tony starts talking about the science of happiness and how, you know, at Zappos, he was trying to use the company to serve the customers and the employees better. And Bezos then says, well, you know, people are pretty bad at predicting what will make them happy. And Tony then says, yes, but apparently you are very good at predicting PowerPoint slides because his next slide address, that very thing.

But this idea of being bad at predicting what will make people happy is so interesting because you can make the argument that Tony couldn't predict his own happiness. And this is a guy who wrote New York Times best selling book called Delivering Happiness, like he was the happiness guy. He was all about serving other people. And he was an incredible example of that because he was unbelievably giving in his own life. And yet the irony, the inescapable irony, of course, being that he was seeking out happiness that eluded him, like the guy who was all about happiness, seemingly died an unhappy person.

Does that surprise you?

Doesn't it doesn't I mean, you see it again and again, like there is this. It's not unusual to see somebody who. Is seeking whether it's happiness or fulfillment or approval. Successful business people, you can say, well, they they're doing it through money and then they get the money. It doesn't work. They consolidate power. Power doesn't work. They try to find it in sex or polyamory or something like that. Right. You know, then you turn to drugs.

Maybe drugs will be the answer, which which kind of broadens the aperture of what we want to talk about, because that involves psychedelics. And psychedelics are, you know, very much in the news at the moment as a treatment protocol for that thing that we're seeking, that that that sense of happiness or as a protocol for dealing with things like depression or PTSD. Yeah, obviously, in Tony's case, you know, he's taking it to these extreme levels like, you know, losing all, you know, dwindling down to ninety eight pounds, fasting, breathing, you know, all of these practices.

So what is fueling all of that? Like, why is it that this guy who seemingly had everything, who was about happiness, who was so generous with the people that he cared about, was pushing the envelope so hard at this phase in his life where most people would look at it and say, do just like hang out. It's good, right?

You built this amazing thing, like, take a breath, enjoy your life. Right. For some reason, it appears that that escaped him, his ability to do that. It appears so. I mean, you know, I think of Martin Seligman who started the positivity, I think at University of Pennsylvania. It's called authentic happiness. It's like a whole school of psychology, positive psychology at the University of Pennsylvania. It was one of the people that was the first to study happiness.

And then there was the a guy named Philip Brickman, who was early on psychology, psychology, happiness person.

I think for 40 years he studied it. He was the guy that did the lottery winners and accident victims study, which, you know, if you if you meet a lottery winner and someone who became a paraplegic and you interview him the day after it happens and then a year after it happens, it's interesting how the day after it happens. Yes, you're going to have a big disparity. But a year later, sometimes the paraplegics actually fared better. And the lottery winners, of course, you know my own life, someone who has been broke as a joke and has had eviction notices on their door and was never a money guy.

Like I never really made my decisions for for money, at least not. But now that you're serving.

No, not so.

You got a little of that. Can't hurt me. Cash, I, I joke about it, but I, I used to be like, you know, you know, the whole thing of money can't buy happiness. No, but it can be happier. I've learned that. But that's up to a point. I think that's what these studies show. It's up to the point anyway, the not to bury the lead, but Philip Brickman took his own life and he was an expert in happiness.

So it's almost like there. And I think we should get back to the psychedelic drugs in a second. But like, because I've taken my share, too. But and, you know, and we should talk about that. But I think there's something the problem isn't happiness. The problem is like, what are we chasing as human beings? What's the human animal looking for?

Because I'm not sure happiness is what we're designed to look for and consume and thrive under. You know, I think happiness is great. We all want to be happy. We all want comfort. We all want to be fed and watered and loved. But I don't think happiness is a permanent state anyway. And to pursue it as the main goal in life might be actually the wrong thing to do. Mhm.

Well, happiness is a very effusive, fleeting emotion. It's, it's not really a state of being, it's like a byproduct of something else that kind of comes and goes.

And I don't think we're hardwired to just be quote unquote happy as a permanent state. Right. Right.

I'd like to think of it more in terms of, you know, feeling purposeful, intentional living, a meaningful life. And as a result of those things like being fulfilled, like I'm very fulfilled in this vocation and in what we're doing right now, sometimes it makes me happy, but often it makes me frustrated and anxious and all of those things. But I wouldn't trade it for some kind of, you know, state of of, I don't know, like perpetual bliss.

No, I don't think that's what you know. I mean, I'm talking to a very accomplished ultra athlete. Those are not the people not seek out happiness typically. Right. Like you're seeking something beyond that. You're seeking you like Ultra is the crucible to which you learn about yourself. Kind of a good analogy. In some ways to psychedelics and psychedelics would be a shortcut, but like, you know, you're not trying to be comfortable when you sign up for a, you know, to do five Ironman.

And by all indications, that pursuit of comfort ultimately, you know, leads us away from happiness. Like I said last night, I got a screener for this new documentary that's coming out on Netflix called Less is More by the minimalist guys, you know, the minimalist Joshua. And so they're coming tomorrow to talk to me. Oh, really? And this this documentary, which is their second documentary, if you haven't seen some animalism. Yeah, their first one.

It's fantastic. It's on Netflix. Everybody should watch that movie. I've talked about it many times, directed by Matt Diavolo, who's gone on to become like this huge YouTube are very talented and just, you know, just they're just really good, cool people on a on a really important mission. So I'm watching this documentary last night. Less is more, which is all about what minimalism is and what it isn't. But essentially the message is about, you know, where where our consumerist ideology, which is really the foundation upon which this country is established.

Right. You know, leads us away from these things like happiness and fulfillment and living a life of purpose and meaning, et cetera. And essentially the things that that are most valuable aren't things at all. This is what Joshua says in the movie. But there are these intangible things and they're the things that we don't spend enough time trying to cultivate in our lives, like community and, you know, service and things like that. Those are the things that actually genetically we're hard wired to that that provide us with those emotions that we're seeking through the accumulation of material belongings.

It's fulfillment, not happiness. Yeah, yeah.

Like Distin, those are two different things for sure. But which one is the is I would pick I would pick fulfillment over happiness. I don't even know how you pursue happiness.

Well, you can. I mean there's this idea that I think the idea that Tony was trying to put out there was that there's a way to have a happier workforce because what is happier workforce mean, it means and employee retention, you keep the intelligence industrial cat, whatever, but that happiness is a product of them being fulfilled in their in their role in the company.

Right. Because they feel empowered. They feel seen and heard. They're taking care of their respected, you know, all of these things that, yeah. I guess fall under the the umbrella of happiness in some respect. But, you know, how are we defining happiness and what does that actually mean?

It's a good question. It reminds me of like it's like the intellectual version of a gurus saying always talks about when he talks about food. You know, people people nourish their bodies based on the first inch of taste buds. You know how he talks about that. Right. And it's like it's the same that it's kind of like the intellectual equivalent, like I'm unhappy today. Today I'm sad, you know, like and depression is a real thing. I'm not talking about depression, but we're talking about like, can I be happier?

The grass is always greener. And that's the kind of stuff you can get through by pursuing fulfillment over happiness. Because if you're always kind of not every day, you don't wake up happy every day. Some days you don't even sleep well. How can you possibly wake up happy?

I think I think that that's where you go wrong.

Well, there's also a conversation to be had about the pursuit of those states externally versus internally. Like you can you can cultivate an environment that's more conducive to those types of emotions. And that's certainly what Tony was about with his Zappos corporation.

Yeah, but ultimately, it's also and fundamentally mostly it's about your relationship with yourself. Right. So you can be in a great job. But if you're disconnected from who you are or you're, you know, in the wrong career path or you don't understand how to have functional relationships with other people or you have unresolved childhood trauma or, you know, all of these things contribute to that. Right. And if you're blind to that and instead focused on the big screen TV or the next thing that you're going to buy or the job promotion or the car lease, then you're losing the opportunity to really, you know, wrestle with what it is that fundamentally is going to lead you towards a path of greater fulfillment and as a byproduct happiness.

Yeah, I think it's interesting. I think it's important to say that we're not kind of trying to get in his head and claim this is how we know.

And I'm not at all coming from an article that we read. And I'm not vilifying this guy in any way. I'm celebrating his life. Know what? I'm looking at his passing as an opportunity to, you know, do a case study on, you know, the trajectory of of of a very successful life, what may have gone wrong and what.

We can learn from that for ourselves and the reason that we we are surmising that has gone wrong or that things weren't going well. I mean, his own family in that Wall Street Journal story is said to have been planning intervention for him. So I think and certainly if you read Jules letter, you know, it's pretty clear that he wasn't in a good place.

Yeah, I think we should unpack a little bit about the psychedelics, because I know that that there's kind of overlap there with with kind of some stuff that you talk about and gas even. And so what are your thoughts on that? Because I know that it seems according to that one one story, that he was increasing his intake and ecstasy and I think was it mushrooms or something like that? I think there were some psilocybin. I don't know if there was ayahuasca or DMT.

I mean, he was a big Burning Man guy, so I wouldn't be surprised. I'm sure he's had plenty of psychedelic experiences in his path. And maybe maybe those were spiritual breakthroughs for him that that contributed to this culture that he created at Zappos. So, yeah, I'm not demonizing any of this, but I do think it's important to at least take a moment to pause on this notion of psychedelia for a moment, because we're in a cultural moment right now where there is this convergence of of that particular genius of drug culture with the wellness movement like those, those two circles are starting to overlap and to create a van diagram.

And I think we need to appreciate just how incredibly powerful these mind altering substances are and that their use, specifically their routine use is not without ramifications or consequences.

You know, despite the fact that there is some incredible research coming out that's been widely reported regarding the therapeutic application of these substances, which I don't dispute.

And I do celebrate when you see work coming out of Johns Hopkins that that psilocybin can help ameliorate depression or PTSD. Right. And these other therapeutic applications that are starting to emerge from the scientific community, these are good things like I'm celebrating. But I also think that there's a difference between that and the kind of you know, what happens is you see that and then for some reason that. Creates a permissive attitude around these substances and it trickles down into what does become routine or overly routine use with people.

Right, so. You know, if you look at Tim Ferriss talks about this all the time on his podcast, I think he's he's helped fund some of those studies coming out of Johns Hopkins. Really? If you read Michael Jackson? Well, I mean, I think it's of personal interest to him.

Right? You know, I think that he's he's very emotionally engaged with that, with that whole thing. And I think that's a good thing. And, you know, he talks about it all the time. And then there's Michael Pollan's book, How to Change Your Mind. You know, and I think there's a lot that can be learned from, you know, he subjected himself to all of these different drugs and reported on it and did a deep dive into into the science.

So, again, I'm not. Raising this in any disparaging way whatsoever, I celebrate all of this, but I do think it should be said, in my opinion, that there is an epidemic right now of very unhappy people. A lot of people who are in considerable pain. And although some or perhaps even many of these people may be good candidates for that kind of chemical therapy, there are too many people out there who are casually and irresponsibly looking to these substances for answers, for the answers that elude them in this effort to kind of, you know, shortcut the path to greater self actualization or happiness or, you know, at the end of that spectrum, enlightenment or so it does.

I've heard of people like actually going in ayahuasca treatment in Mexico to stop taking opioids. I know somebody who did that.

And I you know, I do, too. And and I know people who have done that. And it's been successful for. Yeah, yeah. So, again, I'm not robbing those people of those experiences. I'm validating that. But that's different from I'm going to do ayahuasca every weekend or we're going to take mushrooms all the time because I'm unhappy and this is my solution. It's more complicated than that. And if ayahuasca was so effective, then there'd be a lot of enlightened people walking around right now.

Now, some of those people are better people as a result of those experiences. Again, I fully acknowledge that, but I think there's also a lot of people who are a little bit of a wash and lost and and return to those experiences looking for answers that continue to elude them. So there is no panacea here. And I'm always suspect when something appears in the culture as a shortcut to these things that all of us seek more of and that there is a dearth of right now these feelings of engagement with ourselves in the world and a sense of grounded belonging and community and love and compassion and the like.

So I'm only sounding a little bit of it, not even really a cautionary tale, but maybe just a pause button so that we can reflect a little bit on this in Los Angeles right now, like the pot dispensaries are like Starbucks, you know, and there is this idea that like, oh, well, you know, THC is just part of your wellness routine and like micro dosing and all of these things.

And it's like I'm biased because I'm a product of of 12 step and I'm somebody who has addiction issues. So I have my own, you know, kind of set of ideas around all this kind of stuff that maybe make me a little bit more calcified to the new ideas. But I just think that that's dangerous.

Well, it's not just Los Angeles. I mean, it just got decriminalized nationwide and it's and it's in lots of places. But and I think the big fear was young people were going to be the ones that end up getting high all the time. And it impacts their brain development. And what we've learned is it's the baby boomers who go on Kuhnen and just get high and watch YouTube all day. They're the ones who really we should have been watching out for this whole time.

Well, if they just did that, I'd be fine with it. It's when it spills into the world that it becomes a problem.

You know what?

I keep thinking of a couple of things. One with in terms of hacking your way to something, I think there is something inherently dangerous in thinking that you can take a shortcut, especially something, as you know, look, your 12 step. But, you know, you're sober for years and years and years. Maybe there's something to going slower to get there and making it last longer. I don't know. I haven't looked at the studies, but I wouldn't be surprised if there's a higher relapse and people that that do a shortcut versus that people that are in the community and doing the daily daily work that you do.

Are you saying that it's about the journey, Adam?

I don't know. But speaking of journeys, at the same time, like the first time I ever kind of like had that crack open love of the world feeling was tripping. So, like, you know, to me, psychedelics were an important part of kind of cracking. It was a portal. Yeah, it's a portal. And I think. Yeah. And like, look, as a sober guy like that, that that's like a tripwire, you know, like that pushes my buttons because I know I know sober people who have in sobriety volunteered for psychedelic like under supervision, had psychedelic experiences.

And I think we've talked about this before, but and emerged from it saying that it was revelatory. Right. And so that's interesting to me like that. Be something that I would want to check out maybe. I don't know. I won't dismiss it. But again, my instinct is, you know, that the answers that I'm seeking are not going to be found in a substance. That's not to say that that might not open up some portal for me and and put right in front of me some blind spot that I have.

But when you tell somebody in recovery that the answer to their their problem lies in a mind altering substance, like, you know, it's like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Like everything. Lights up in your brain, and that scares me. Yeah, well, I get it. I also actually don't even believe that. I think what it did for me and I was very young at the time.

I was probably 20 at the time as it showed me that love can be unconditional and expansive. Mm hmm. And then and then I was dropped by back into my body that I didn't necessarily love or it didn't feel very expansive. And the way to actually get there in life and day to day life isn't to take that drug again and again. You've got the lesson.

It's the last you learned what you needed to learn and then you have to keep moving it in life in a way that's productive. And so he didn't have to do that because he had too many resources at his disposal, perhaps, and he could do whatever he wanted any day. But there's danger to that level of freedom to not being tethered to to having to do X, Y or Z, to get to, you know, pay bills or to accomplish this task or that task.

It's almost like freedom and happiness were kind of what became the undertow. And I want to touch on escapism because I think that came up in a couple of the stories. He was into escapism. And I'm not against escapism because, like, if you look at the way the world is and the way people treat each other and, you know, who would not want to escape from that every once in a while, like we escaping it in our different ways, you know, whether it's a trail run or a free dive session or an open water swim, that's what it is.

I mean, that's to me what it is. And I'm totally down with that. Like, I think I think you'd be crazy not to want to check out for a little bit and try to reconnect in something that's bigger than the bullshit that we see every day. And I know a lot of your listeners are nodding in agreement would feel the same exact way. Escapism isn't the problem. The problem is when escapism becomes everything.

Well, two things I agree. And two other things that I that I took that I take away from this. One is the very significant. Emotional and mental toll that the pandemic has on a lot of people, right, this is a guy who could not be alone, like he needed to be around people. And suddenly when that was removed from the realm of possibilities, I think that that impacted him disproportionately. Like, I think that's a big part of what led to this spiral.

And maybe being around people, you know, I don't know, you know, I don't know him and I can't get inside his head. But maybe, you know, him being around people all the time with some kind of distraction that kept kept whatever demons he had at bay, being a social animal amidst a group of people. Maybe he could be part of it, but also hiding it. And when that's gone and you're forced to be with yourself, the discomfort of that became unbearable.

And he started to look for different ways to, you know, medicate that.

It's interesting. He was he was interested in the criminal mind, right? He was interested in that, like the hive mind. And maybe that was another escape, like you said. So he get out of his own mind. Right.

The second thing is, no matter how successful you get, it's absolutely critical that you surround yourself with people who can give you objective feedback. Right. Like too many stories of people that get successful and are surrounded by. Yes. People or people that have a financial incentive in you, you know, not being as healthy as you should be. And, you know, things go haywire, you know. So surround yourself with good people and solicit feedback, honest feedback on how you're living.

And when people deliver that, don't take it personally. Right. Right. Like, thank them for that, because that's the stuff that's ultimately going to catalyze the growth, growth over happiness. But beautiful man, Tony. And it's quite sad what happened. So, yeah, I celebrate his life and his life was kind of a work of art in a way. It was an incredible work of art, an incredible work of art.

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All right, back to the show. All right, we ready to go. Let's get into it, shall we talk a little antitrust. Let's talk antitrust.

You are of people don't realize you're an antitrust expert. It is.

It might be one of the few A's that I got in law school which rolled into that got an A or two and. Right. Which let's just be clear. My father is an antitrust lawyer.

Yeah. So. So infer, as you will, my deep seated need to get approval from my dad, that that would have been the one aid I got now in law school.

Did you have your Stanford swimming hair going still or did it grow up by then? Who knows, man? I was drunk the whole time. It's very it's it's all murky, but no, not swimming. Not swimming, not the chlorinated hair. Yeah. Oh, you mean the flat top. Right. No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

We would get a flat top before big meets every year. So yeah, I would rock that like once a year. That was just not a solid lock.

OK, well with the classes that take up like the whole face, I mean, with that man you have, I was going to be like, God, did he do that all in college? Because I'd be unfortunate. I have to wear my hair. This is the only way that it looks good and you can grow along. You could get a mullet going. Yeah, I could do like the Trump mullet and like, comb it over. Right.

To be a good look. Yeah. No, let's try that on Biersack for you.

Antitrust, are we going to have we could have a new category of podcast. Legal Corner.

Legal Corner with Rachel. You see how this goes. The problem is we're going to start getting calls and ask you to take the case. And next thing you know, friend, Judge Judy, the whole series and Netflix buys it. There is a reason why we're bringing up antitrust today. Yes, because it impacts all of us, because I would suspect most people listening or watching are on Facebook or have some connection to Facebook. And Facebook is very much in the news right now.

Facing antitrust backlash, the US government and forty eight states have sued Facebook for illegally crushing competitors and demanding the company to undo its acquisitions of WhatsApp and Instagram. And I think it's worth talking about for a couple of reasons, because it does affect all of us so deeply. And I think it raises interesting questions about the power of these massive platforms and the control to which they exert over our lives, which obviously is a subject you and I have talked about before with the Social Dilemma documentary and also talking about.

Feels good, man. Yeah, which I just have those guys. So this is the second podcast that we've recorded in the new studio because I had the filmmakers from that documentary here the other day. That episode not going to go up for a little while. But I'm telling you right now that one is not to be missed. We had an unbelievable conversation that's rooted and related to how we use these platforms and the impact that they have and to the extent that they are wielding monopolistic power in an anti competitive anti consumer way.

I do think as bland as a legal discussion around antitrust, you know, potentially might be that it was worth planting a flag here and talking about it for a few minutes.

Yeah, just for a few minutes. Teachable moment on why it's important. I mean, I think, you know, one one thing that comes to mind for me is like if you're going to have a brain that you carry around with you in your hand, it would be better if it wasn't just a few dominant companies that are controlling most of what you're getting and seeing and accessing because that starts to play on you. I think that's what you were talking about with the guys.

And so the idea is kind of from what my understanding is, and correct me if I'm wrong, that they the government that Facebook acquired Instagram and WhatsApp and 2012 for WhatsApp, 2014 for Instagram and in some reports are saying the government signed off on those acquisitions. Kara Swisher says that they just didn't intervene and they allowed them to go forward. And now with more data and more, a better understanding of how that has transformed the innovation in social media or lack thereof, the government is now saying that they acquired them in order to crush competitive competition in that space.

And because of that, that's illegal. That's my interpretation of it. Is that correct? Yeah. Well, the federal argument and state argument is that these organizations, particularly in this case Facebook, because that's what these specific lawsuits are about. The Google stuff is a little bit different. But in the in the Facebook context, the argument is that Facebook is trying to reduce competition by purchasing rivals in an explicit violation of the antitrust laws. Essentially, when a another platform or a new technological advancement comes up before or when it looks like it's an emerging threat to Facebook's business, they are faced with the decision of either crushing it or acquiring it.

And in the case of WhatsApp and Instagram, they're. Why are these companies, they consolidated their power and that has a downstream impact of reducing competition in the marketplace at large. Facebook's argument is that, as you said, the government signed off on these acquisitions. 2012 was WhatsApp, 2014, Instagram. They went through the whole process, like when you when you're a large company and you're acquiring another company, the FTC and the Justice Department have to get involved.

Like as a lawyer, I've been involved in in these situations, like you have to produce a tremendous amount of documents. It's called a second request that the FTC does where they look over everything and they have to do an analysis like, is this going to have an anti-competitive impact on the marketplace or what is the impact on the consumer? So this gets run through their system. And in the case of Facebook, Kara Swisher said they allowed it to happen.

But I'm sure, you know, if you were to talk to one of the FTC lawyers that they did look at this stuff pretty intently signed off on it. So Facebook saying that a do over is unfair. And second, that there are other argument is that Facebook actually made Instagram and WhatsApp better than they could have been on their own. If you listen to Kara and Scott Galloway and their podcast Pivot, they talk about this at length. And Scott, who's a professor of business at NYU and just, you know, has an amazing mind for these kinds of things.

He's basically like, I don't think that that's true. I think that, you know, if you look at WhatsApp, for example, what would WhatsApp have been had it been independent, particularly in a pandemic? Maybe they would have gotten into video, maybe they would have innovated in different ways. Maybe they would have acquired some other company, maybe WhatsApp and Zune would have would have merged.

Or, you know, like you can't say that these apps are better by dint of being under the umbrella of Facebook. Right. In fact, you could make the argument that Facebook has impeded their ability to iterate, because when you're part of a massive organization, you're not going to be able to be as nimble with your right technological advances. The problem with all of this, we're just at the starting gate of these lawsuits is that the burden of proof in an antitrust case is quite steep.

And it's two pronged. Essentially, the government has to show that Facebook purchased its rivals with the express purpose of squelching or killing off competition. So essentially they have to prove intent and proving intent is very difficult.

And they Swisher is hinting that there's some interesting Zuckerberg emails that are going to come out of this. There's a book coming out right about Facebook, OK? And that she's hinting it like some emails where he's basically hinting at I want, you know, we got to crush Instagram or crush. Right. Right. Yeah, I've heard that.

I mean, I think those emails have been like. Yeah, like that. They acknowledge that that intent. OK, right. But then, you know, they'll deploy a battery of defense lawyers that say that's taken out of context or what have you. I'm pretty sure they're going to have some good lawyers. Yeah, Facebook is not going to go quietly into the night on this. They have too much to lose. They're going to fight this tooth and nail for sure.

I mean, and the second prong of this burden of proof is that is that the government has to show that the consumers in the market would have been better off without the merger. And that's that's hard. That's a tough row to hoe. And my favorite part, there's a couple New York Times articles on this that that will link up in the shadows. But there was one where where my former antitrust law professor, George Hay, law professor at Cornell and former antitrust official at the Justice Department, was quoted.

So I felt so good about that. He basically said it should be assumed that Facebook will seek to obtain all the internal work product that lay behind the original decisions, that the acquisitions did not pose a competitive problem. Right, right. So this is just beginning, but I think it's going to be fascinating to me to watch. Yeah, it's going to take years. But to watch this, you know, the battle lines are being drawn. And if I was a law student right now or a young lawyer looking to be in the middle of the action, I think being at the FTC or the Justice Department right now would be an amazing place to be because I think antitrust activity is going to explode with growing political will to really look at these gigantic companies and the deleterious impact of the power that they wield over the market and the consumers.

What do you think is if they're doing if Facebook is now, what do you see as some future kind of terrain that that antitrust lawyers might look at?

Well, you know, honestly, I think I think that that you do need to decouple WhatsApp and Instagram from Facebook. I think 100 percent that consumers would be better off and Facebook needs to be right with that. But then when we look at the other big. Players out there in the pecking order of like who would be next, I mean, Facebook is the easy first target because there's this sensibility around Mark Zuckerberg and this kind of, you know, the evil empire idea.

Right. So that I'm not surprised that they're going after Facebook first. But who's who's next? And, you know, I would look at Amazon and their, you know, suite of businesses that they laud control over Adewusi. They run. They own the biggest cloud service in the world. Like, remember when I was a Twitter?

Now, there was a day when, like, you couldn't refresh your podcast, like all the podcasts were not available for a couple hours because all of these platforms are backed up on us, like HWC is like the engine behind the Internet. Right. And the idea that that's owned by Amazon, this e-commerce website is crazy. If you're smart, you would prophylactically decouple some of these businesses from your core enterprise as a measure, as a defense measure against the government going after you.

And that's something that Karen Scott Galloway we're talking about with respect to Google, Scott was saying that, you know, if you look at Google, all right. You know, should you to be part of Google, like, certainly those are businesses that should be separated, but Google's not going to voluntarily cut ties with YouTube and spin it off. But if they were smart, you know, if you listen to what Scott's saying, they would spin off their cloud service.

Right. Like let go of drive to say we're a good actor in the space after us. Yeah. Yeah. So they can hold on to YouTube. Right. Right. You know what I mean? Like, it's going to be fascinating to see the the kind of jockeying and the strategy and the moves that these companies are going to make. But I think breaking them up will be this amazing spark to innovation in the space. And I think consumers will benefit from that.

So you think it's going to happen? Well, the lawsuits are moving forward, right? You know, how they'll play out is anybody's guess. But I do think it's interesting that this is happening right at the end of the Trump administration as we're heading into Biden. Certainly the Biden administration is going to be much more.

Politically interested in this, although Trump, you know, he was on record as saying these companies are too big and seem to have an interest in.

Yeah, I mean, ultimately, these Justice Department people who bring these suits, they aren't really political appointees.

They're. No, but but if you're at DOJ, if you're the attorney general, like you're you're you know, you're still taking orders from the White House in terms of the kind of cases that they want you to pursue or not pursue. It's interesting, you know, when it comes to consumers, when you you know, having seen such a dilemma and we've talked about it is like who are the consumers of Facebook and Google and YouTube? Because it seems like they're consumers or their advertisers.

It's not. You know, we were interesting, right. And by users, I mean, we're getting used and it's like we do use it.

We do access the social dilemmas that we're the product, we're the product and the and and the the resource. I mean, look, I do think I use WhatsApp in my reporting. I use Facebook messages and my reporting. I think early on I used Facebook a lot to connect with subjects and then to keep in touch with people that overseas I wouldn't otherwise write. That became WhatsApp. Small businesses, local businesses are deeply knotted into Instagram travel. The travel industry is deeply knotted.

Insta Instagram. There are people who this could affect because if to to decouple, it won't be necessarily so seamless, probably, although maybe it will feel seamless to us. But I am in favor obviously of reduced corporate hegemony. Yeah, right.

Anyway, and the idea that that the market is better with these companies holding on all these things, all you have to do is look at antitrust history, like look at the breakup of of the telecom spinning off Ma Bell and all these, you know, smaller companies, that that was a period of great innovation as a result of that. And I think that's what you'll see here. Now, in terms of the moves that these companies are making, what should they do prophylactically?

How are they trying to protect themselves right now? You see Facebook starting to take their messaging service and and integrate it across all of their platforms so it becomes very difficult to disentangle. Whereas Apple, conversely, is cutting its commission charges on that app store to say we're a good actor. Like, I think what Tim Cook is doing and how Apple is proceeding here of all of these, like they're in the best stead in terms of weathering this and not being a big target.

But when Facebook is going out of its way to make separating WhatsApp from the rest of its ecosystem more difficult, to me, that makes them all the more likely. Hard target. Well, also, Apple can afford it because their big money is the phone. It's the hardware. You know, that's where they're making their their coin. Right. It's different kind of thing. Different, but they're profitable. I mean, they're so massive to that, you know, the lens is going to get, you know, aimed in their direction at some point.

But this idea of of who's the customer is super interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Like, the advertisers are the customer. That's how they make their money. So they got to keep them happy.

And that's what it comes out of this like that's like who's the consumer? Because, you know, people are going the news is going to be reported and consumer is going to be used a lot. And I hope that what we're paying attention to is I want to know how who Facebook thinks the consumer is.

Well, I think we know that Facebook thinks the consumer is is the is the advertiser. But what do they call what is going to get reported and how is the narrative going to be spun?

I mean, I think you know, I think, you know, with the exception of very savvy reporters like Kevin Roose and the like, most of it's going to get positioned as us being the consumer. Yeah, don't you think? I think so. I think user and consumer are two different things in this case, and often they're not. I mean, so, like, that's what that was always the argument for. Don't don't break up Amazon when they were getting all their terrible press for how they operated their business and abuse of employee abuse and whatever was that.

You could say what you want, but the consumer gets lower prices. You know, they charge for that. They change the diaper company out of business, but the consumer gets lower prices. They chase that company out of business. Wal-Mart cracks down on mom and pop shops all over small town America, but the consumer gets lower prices. But the problem is, when you look at things just like that, the collateral damage is completely ignored. And and you would need to buy things so cheap if everyone made a little more money.

Right. If if the wealth was shared a bit more. And that's the biggest problem with tech companies, is they siphon money into smaller and smaller straws or big straws. But for a few people.

Yeah, and that's and that's why I think breaking them up and having more competition means more money gets. Right around, and I think that that's not being talked about, really, but that's what it's about, it's a way to redistribute wealth in an era of a Gilded Age.

Yeah, I mean, Facebook's argument is there is a robust market when it comes to social networks. And there is a lot of competition when you look at Tick-Tock and SNAP and things like that.

But is there really who looks at tick, tick, tick, tick tock, huge? I know it's huge. I do. I can't I can't do it. It's that's the bridge too far for me. I mean, my, my daughter's on it all the time, but, you know, I just that's where I have to draw the line and say, OK, it's not appropriate.

I know me, maybe I'm just getting older. I'm listening to the Obama book.

That's what I'm doing now. Is it. It's fabulous. Yeah, I'm sure it is. Yeah.

Him and his little book out there is so dainty little 750 page volume one. All right. Well, more will be revealed on this. And I think that concludes this week's edition of Legal Corner. Teachable Moment.

Yeah, I hope you learn something, kids. What have we got?

Next, we're going to do a little show and tell a little show and tell baby. Yeah, well, my big show and tell, which, you know, we have locked down cameras here, but my show and tell is our new studio. It's fabulous. Check us out. If you're listening on Apple podcast or Spotify, go to YouTube and see what the new studio looks like. I mean, we maintain the same aesthetic from the temporary place, but we've dialed it up a notch.

Yeah, I'm getting a pedicure right now. Yeah, that's right. Especially telling you it is next level, next level stuff going on. But you got a couple of things you want to talk about, right? Well, I just wanted to because I couldn't make I wanted to say hi to the guys that made feels good man, because just to reiterate, I love that movie. I think it's one of the best documentaries I've seen in years.

I highly recommend everyone to see it. And I love Matt Furi and his is ill fated quest to try to reclaim his Froggie Pepé the Frog. Right, Peepee the frog, Pabey up a bit. So my wife and I loved it so much. We went out and bought his children's book, The Nightriders, which is his second attempt at reclaiming Pabey, but in a different way because he loves drawing from lots of different frog, different frogs. They say in the movie it's unrelated to Pepé.

It looks kind of a little like him. Right. But I mean, he's the guy with the frog since he was a kid. Right. So he's going to draw them. And it's the artwork in here is spectacular. I mean, it's like it's like an art gallery as a children's book. And it's so weird.

And there's no words in it right now. Yeah. It's like incredible with that mushroom frame was in the movie. Yeah. Yeah. I'll get something. Want a look at how he eats a moth.

Right. It is, it is beautiful. He is quite the artist. And it was a bummer that you couldn't be here when, when Giorgio and Arthur were here because they were, they were amazing. And and I watched. I watched. Feels good man. A second time to get ready to talk to these guys. And it was better the second time, I bet. I mean, I'm telling you, this movie is unbelievable. And it's so shocking to me that everybody isn't talking about this movie constantly.

It should be nominated for an Oscar. That's hopefully if there's justice in the world and maybe this is a subject for a future legal corner. There is if there was justice, there isn't. Right.

They will get an Oscar nomination. But what's interesting about this movie is, is that despite. Premiering at Sundance and winning these guys in Emerging Filmmaker Award at that lauded festival struggled to find a distributor. And so although it's available on a variety of platforms online, Apple TV Apple is an Apple TV Apple plus. What do you call it?

Yeah, there. They asked that people watch it there because Amazon takes a big cut. If they watch it, it's available VOD. Yeah, but there is a visibility problem. Like it's it's, it's, it's suffering from discoverability, I think. And so I just want to shout from the mountaintops that I think everybody should see this movie because I just thought it was phenomenal. And everybody that I've turned on to the movie absolutely loves it. Davis here, he was like watching it the other night.

Texting me like this is unbelievable. You know, it's insane. It is insane. Like, I was like doing it. I mean, like feeling the feelings I was getting similar to I got in Blackfish, which is another great documentary. You expose something that I wasn't aware of, but this is artistically a whole nother level, artistically phenomenal and also so relevant to our everyday lives.

Like you watch Blackfish and it alerts you it's an incredible movie to learn.

You do, you know, a wrong in the world, but it doesn't necessarily impact you when you open up your computer screen every day, right? Well, that's a perfect example. You Blackfish, you are wrong in the world. It's very captivating in its own way. Then you have like the Ah Crumb movie, which awards you to weirdness and art in the world and in a very disturbing way. And you wrap those things together. And the artistic value of this.

I mean, I think the animation I mean, this just is all those things wrapped up in one. That's why it's so great. Yeah. And I was I was delighted that they were the first. I love you, Adam, but I was delighted they were the first guests in the new podcast studio. And they brought me an incredible gift, which was a present from boys club of the actual demand page where, you know, you see the the four panes or whatever it is culminating in the feels good and the paint bubble.

You're saying it's the page that Matt wishes he never wrote? That's right. You have. Yeah. And it's in like this glow and glow in the dark like color scheme. It's like, you know, I don't know, three by two and a half, like just a beautiful print and what a what an incredible like artifact of culture. Right. So they actually were going up to see Matt over the weekend and they were going to get it signed for me, which I will proudly be hanging in this studio.

So I appreciated that. Hell, yeah, it's very cool.

But that book I want to get in the movie, they talk about the book and I can't remember, was it his the publisher or some somebody in publishing was commenting on, on the nightriders and talking about how, you know, it's very much in the vein of where the wild things are. Yeah. And on that level artistically, you know.

Oh it is pretty cool, but it doesn't have the words, it doesn't have that neat and tidy story for kids. It's like you can kind of see it's not necessarily for kids or did you buy it online.

Yeah.

On Amazon, I'm not at liberty to say we will figure out where the best place to buy that is and link it up in the show notes. Because if you're listening and you have very young children, I think it would be a really cool holiday gift. I hear they sell it on Amazon. You heard that right. But I'm not going to quote you on that.

We're not getting into my past purchases right now. But I did make a pass purchase.

Rob Bell's writing class. Yes. I want to hear all about this. You were going to tell me about this earlier, and I said, don't tell me. I want to I want to just hear it fresh on the pod friend of the show, Rob Wright, very good friend of the show and good friend in person.

Also both of us. Yes. I can't wait to see persons again.

Yeah. And beautiful human being, great human being, incredibly gifted writer and speaker and just guru of all things, unlocking creativity.

He's so smart. It's just that's why I took it. It's like I took it because a I took it for a couple of reasons. One is, yes, I'm wrestling with a novel that is kind of occupying a lot of space in my brain. And it's not easy for me because it's a different form. I'm not used to it and I have my own little imposter syndrome around it. But also I'm interested in kind of this love this part.

I think we talked about this this time of my career, looking at craftsmanship around writing and around storytelling in ways that I previously was just kind of not didn't have time to engage in or just wasn't really interested in engaging in. And so then knowing the third thing that Rob is so smart and brilliant that it's fun to listen to him anyway, write about any. Yeah, I could just listen to him read the phone book. Exactly. Raises an eyebrow.

He gets so excited. I know. Well, and so that's the first thing I noticed is that he and I are very, very different in our approach to our own work. He's very thrilled by it all the time. And like at the beginning of a project, I'm very not thrilled with what I'm producing. And so but that's the lesson, right. So one thing that he he goes into the projects with with wonder. So this this class, he went through every book he wrote and he kind of went through it and told the story behind it.

And kind of as he did it, he was opening each book and like kind of gleefully looking at his chapter titles and just like really stoked on it. And I love that because he's owning it in a way and giving permission to really love yourself and your work at the same time. And it's a great example. And it's something that I think is my biggest takeaway is to feel free to do that for myself, which I do not feel free to do typically.

Right. And that enthusiasm and wonder is infectious. It is. But there's a Half-Life on that, too, because I've been in his orbit and I feel so good when I'm around him and I find myself trying to meet his energy in that way. And then I leave and then I wake up the next day and I'm back to myself and you're like, Oh shit, I wrote this shit.

Yeah, but, you know, it's interesting is he comes into it with a what is this. That's how writing starts. What does this want to be. He referenced the great architect Louis Kahn. Before he started designing. He asked the building, OK, what does this building want to be? So he's asking, what does this thing want to be coming into it with co creating with the thing that does not yet exist?

Exactly. And he actually suggests interviewing the book idea, like interviewing and asking questions. And in doing that, there is you become a steward of the energies of whatever the project is going to be, because that's what he sees a writer as a steward of energies. It's not just you.

Well, that's that's a very, you know, big Magic Abath idea. And he and Liz Gilbert, I think there's a lot of overlap there. You know, he's saying, are you a writer? If you write, you're a writer and someday you'll become good. You don't have to worry about becoming good. That's not your job right now if you're a beginner. He talks about the separation between flow and edit flow. Just let it come out at it, go back later and deal with which I engage.

That's definitely something I believe in. I believe in a certain amount of words per day and getting that out and not necessarily rereading it. Even the next day. I try to I try to get through a whole draft before coming back and doing a full reread. Sometimes that changes, but that's what I try to do. Exactly. For that reason, there's a flow draft and there's an edit draft for me. He talks about how it feels to him.

How is it feeling when your writing? Is it urgent? Is it personal or is it spiritual? I think that's interesting. I don't really feel care about how I feel when I'm writing that much, but he's talking about the feel of the story itself, not how you feel about it, but the feel of the feel of the project. And that I got a lot out of. I actually took something because I never thought about the feeling of the book.

I've always thought about story points and characters. But now I have a feeling that's like a theme. And and I'm only in the second draft right now. I'm like two thirds of the way through a second draft. And my goal is to have the second draft done by the end of the year. But then this is going to be a ten draft process to get this to any point where I even give it to my wife to read. I mean, it's going to be a while.

So to have the feeling now I think is great. So I got that directly out of it. And the number one thing I got out of it is own it, you know, own own the piece.

Like, don't question if you're going to write it. Don't keep questioning. Are you good enough. Are you doing it like is it worth doing on the fact that it's worth doing because you're doing it. And I think that that level of confidence has been missing and he just gives you permission to feel that way. And so I think overall, did I get a lot structurally out of it? Not necessarily. I mean, I don't write memoir. He's a guy who was who basically writes about the Bible and writes a memoir.

He also write he writes some fiction stuff he hasn't really shared necessarily. I mean, he's a he's he is a much more he writes about anything he wants, but the stuff that we know of him is typically memoir related. I don't do that.

Did he share anything about productivity or. Yeah.

You know, the resistance to creative resistance and how to get over that kind of thing. Because the reason I ask is he's one of the most prolific and productive, creative people that I know. He just doesn't ever seem to, you know, get gapped out in any way. Like he's just constantly putting out amazing stuff. And even his podcast, like the amount of intention and thought, like most of them are. Monologues that could be characterized as sermon's, and they feel very natural and casual, but it's indisputable that he's thought deeply about everything that that he's saying and the naturalistic approach that he like.

It's so attitudinal because he does he does like enter into everything that he does with a certain kind of enthusiasm. Joy. Yeah. As opposed to the gnashing of the teeth anymore.

You know, like, how does that work? He doesn't have the self-doubt problem that we have. And I don't know if it's or I have I'm not I don't mean to say I got plenty of it. Yeah. And he doesn't seem to have it. It seems like that could be a product of his faith, you know, the fact that he is, but he's not so much.

But I would suspect everybody has these angsty moments.

Right. But he seems to be I mean, I'm not standing over him watching him. Right. But we should be getting them.

He feels like he's figured that out. That would be it would be great to get them on and just just to talk about creativity. And I've said this before, but he has I don't know if it's still up on his website because I listen to it quite a long time ago. I suspect it is. It's called I think it's called something to say. And it's an audio lecture that is hours and hours and hours. And I think it's like eight hours or something like that.

It's like an unbelievably long lecture series of lectures on basically how to create like a speech or a presentation or a keynote. Like if you have something to say, here's how you take an idea and and turn it into something so worthwhile. It's a master class on communication, on clarity of thought, on executing on an idea. I mean, of everything that I've, you know, consumed on the subject of creativity and writing. It was the most interesting, thoughtful and helpful thing that I've ever listened to and very different from anything else that I've ever.

Well, this was not necessarily that. So he didn't get to in the weeds on structure and like, helping you figure this is a different thing.

This was this is a little bit more general than I thought it might be. But but like a couple of things that were really stuck out is if you've written multiple things, it's OK to go back to the drawing board and write this one differently. So to him, it's like, how am I going to write this one? Am I going to do maybe this one I'll do longhand, maybe this one, I'll speak into a recorder and have someone transcribe it.

He likes to keep it fresh. For someone who's done a lot of writing and he's very prolific, I think it was like nine books we went through.

I forgot, you know, like he he's very open minded. He keeps that mind and that space is open as possible, you know, how do I write this one? What does this one want to be? How do I align head and heart? And like I said, I'll quote him here. Here's the thing. I own it. Own it. The thing you're trying to write on it, if it's a sci fi novel, inventing an entirely new world, making it as weird and wild and strange as you can own it, own what you're trying to do.

And that's the key. Like I think that writers can get into trouble trying to be too nice and he hates that. And so that was a nice piece to hear from him. Who's like who is one of the nicer people go, yeah, yeah. For him to say that because because he knows that that won't come across well on a page if something's too nice, if it doesn't have that edge because there's nothing for the reader to hang on.

And I think I mean, to me, he doesn't want people sanitizing their experience or sanitizing their writing. But for me, the things I got out of it is how do I write this one? What what is the feeling of this piece and and own it? Those are kind of the three main things I took. It was very worthwhile.

And for somebody who's listening or watching, who's not a writer or doesn't consider themselves to be a writer, but perhaps as a creative spark like of these ideas, what can be extrapolated to the you know, to anybody who's listening, like the the lessons baked into this are specific to writing, but they seem to me to be easily translatable to other pursuits.

I think any time that you have an idea that you want to pursue and you feel self-doubt, it's OK to own what you're trying to do and not give yourself a third degree about it too often because that can in fact, what you're trying to do, it can that insecurity can leak itself into into the work itself, doesn't always, but it can. So I think owning it is good. How do I want to go about it and asking yourself those questions, even if you're mid career in any job like, say, you're a lawyer and you're taking on a new case, OK, how am I going to research this case?

How am I going to try this case doesn't have to be the same way, even if they're all wins.

What's the weirdest, craziest argument I could come up? Right, right. Yeah. How to attack each new project from a fresh and different angle. Yeah. And then he comes with the don't be precious or attached to your writing. I think that's very important. That could be used for any. In any job, don't be pressures are attached to your ideas, but he has something that's interesting, he has a bit file stuff that doesn't fit into the, you know, cuts he's made that he wants to keep.

And then he puts it into a bitz file and he's used that. He gave a couple of examples of using another. Yeah, right. And I've never done that. I always just move on completely and start again from a defense from scratch. So that's interesting. It's been years since I listened to that. Something to say. But I seem to recollect that one of the practices that he talks about is just being more observant in your daily life, because if you're paying attention, there's weird stuff going on all over the place and making a habit of like writing one of those things down every day or like making a list of those things.

And the more that you do that, the more engaged you are with the world and your environment. And the more you pay attention, the more that that kind of fuels a creative spark. I love it. That just reminded me. I just completely imagined that. But I you know, that just reminded me of that that movie adaptation where I just watched it a couple of weeks ago with the boys. They'd never seen it. I was like, how can you be cinematically literate and not have seen this movie?

This is the greatest, the greatest adaptation.

It's easily in my top 10 movies of all time.

But I was splashed on that moment where Nick Cage stands up and Robert McKee's story class. Robert, he is like you probably have heard of him. He's on Twitter, but he kind of legendary screenwriting teacher, wrote a story script doctor story, which is amazing.

And he's like the the the mentor of the script doctors. Right? Right. And Nick Cage raised his hand. And, you know, he's he plays Charlie Kaufman very, like, mousy guy. And he's like, you know, I'm writing a story and it's about nothing. And because nothing happens in life. So I want nothing to happen in this movie. And he just goes, who plays Robert Rickie's Brian?

What's his name? I can't believe I'm blanking on it right now. Legendary Brian Brian Cox from Success and Just Launches. And what do you mean nothing happens in life?

And then basically, just like a lion's roar from his mouth in an auditorium of thousands of people. It's classic. It's a classic scene. Cool. Anyway, Robert Bell's class was not like, yeah.

So I trust this was like on Zoom or how did you do that?

Yeah, I was on it was on Zoom. It was it was like he had us all kind of muted and nobody was it unlimited.

Like you could everybody could sign up. Yeah. I was like he was like 50 bucks and he did like a few sessions. And then and then people could you could you could fire questions at him through the chat. And he was answering some of them. So it was like a mix of like twenty minutes, a lecture, then some questions, twenty minutes lecture and some questions.

And it was really good. And he's going to repurpose it. I think he's going to do some version of it on his podcast. He claimed cool, but he hadn't decided when. And so I don't know. It was good.

It was worth it. It wasn't. If you're looking for Nuts and Bolts Writers Workshop where you learn how to do X, Y and Z, this was not that. But if you're looking for true inspiration and trying to figure out how to find joy in it and to feel like you can do something, this was that right. And then if you're mid career writer like me, just looking for a fresh take on how it's done, I definitely got something out of it.

Right.

Thus concludes the We Love Rabil Fanclub segment of the show, which will likely reappear at some point.

Adam takes a class. I enjoy your continuing education.

Adam's continuing education. That could be a theme. Send me on another mission.

Let's talk about this Goldman Prize as the winner of the week here. Yes, the winner of the week is the Goldman Prize. Would you like me to explain the gold? Please do the Goldman Prize. A one way of putting it is it's the Nobel Prize for grassroots activists, which is really what the Goldman family who's behind the prize kind of created it for, was to reward people. Every continent gets one winner every year except for Antarctica. So six continents a year recognized.

And the winners are people doing grassroots work that have had a significant impact. And what they get is a cash prize, like the genius grant or anything else that they can do anything they want with. And it's a six figure prize of some kind. I used to remember the exact amount, but it's escaping me. And so the first time I heard about Goldman Prize was when Berta Caceres, who I think mentioned her on the show before, she's the Honduran environmental freedom fighter who was murdered for trying to stop a dam from being built on the river and in her ancestral homeland.

We did talk about her and I went down in like a week after she was murdered. Another environmental activist was murdered there.

And Honduras is there's no other way of saying it. It's basically virgin. On failed state status, there's so much corruption that it's kind of leaked all the way up to the presidency and the people who killed her have been connected to the to the current administration there through the electric company. And and so I went report on that. That's how I heard about Goldman. But what makes this this announcement this week special to me is that Crystal Ambrose from the Bahamas Ocean Plastics activist and pioneer and education and and study of ocean plastics is one of the winners.

And I was with her on the five Gyres expedition from Eleuthera, where she lives and where she works to Bermuda. And her story is really interesting. She started kind of like just as you know, she used to be a scuba diver at in Nassau, like a scuba diving instructor. What's that? Atlantis. Atlantis, Nassau. Right. And next thing you know, she's in Eleuthera and she is she sees all this plastic on the beaches and she's saying that something's wrong here.

And she starts through her curiosity, finding her curiosity and that realizing that is this are plastic in this Bahamas plastic or is it coming in from elsewhere? She started to collect it. She started to educate. She she ended up connecting with five gyres. She got a last minute invitation to go on one of their expeditions to the Great Pacific Garbage Patch. She made the she made the flight, made the, like, expedition and like the last minute, like running to get on the boat.

And next thing you know, flash forward whatever. Seven years later, I forget exactly how many years later she's a Goldman Prize winner. And the reason that she won is because in twenty seventeen through their fifth annual plastic camp, where she takes students of primary and middle school age and she gets them to look at the problem of plastic pollution and come up with ideas that could solve the problem. It's Youth Activism Workshop. She she hosted a second edition with kind of her all stars from the summer camp program, which is and did something.

The first is kind of a plastic pollution work education workshop. Then she did this youth activism workshop with her All Stars, and they surveyed the community to find out if locals would support a plastic bag ban.

And through this process, the students decided, decided with Crystal, let's try to get the Bahamas to implement a plastic bag tax, not a ban, but a tax.

And so eventually she got a meeting with the minister of the environment and the Bahamas with the students and the students. This is 2017. That summer, she met with the students. Twenty eighteen. She gets this meeting and on the way to the meeting, she's all nervous. She's like, come on, students, wear your best clothes. No talking out of order. Be on your best behavior. We have to do it properly.

And the students like Miss Crystal, that's boring. We want to sing the song that we wrote and they'd written this song about, you know, it was we are the change. We are the solution. We can fix this plastic pollution, which had been a part of their video that had gone very well. And so that's what they did. They went in and they did their song. And the minister was like, you want to just ban or tax bags?

What about all single use plastic? Wow. And so grew into this thing where by twenty twenty after they helped write this bill, now the Bahamas doesn't it's illegal now to import any single use plastic into the country. I didn't know that. And so because of this war now.

So you can't get plastic water bottles in the Bahamas.

It's now it was a six month, there was a six month what's it called a six month phase in or whatever. Right. Right.

And now apparently you can't. That's amazing.

And but that doesn't solve the problem with plastic on the beaches because it is a grace period. Thank you. You are a lawyer. It took me a minute, though. It's not that's not a.. I got a white beard for a reason, but the plastic is coming in from elsewhere. It's coming in from cruise ships. It's coming in from the United States. The Gulfstream goes right through the Bahamas. And so they have a lot of trans boundary waste.

And so right now, she's getting her Ph.D. in and studying that exact thing, transboundary waste and how it's hitting these island nations that are kind of caught in the middle. So but she still is is got this you know, the Bahamas plastic movement is her baby. That's what it's called. And Krystal Ambrose is the head of that.

And it's pretty cool. So there's golden prize is a big deal, right? Like for her and their whole thing is finding these gems, like these grassroots people that's making change. Exactly. I mean, just a quick rundown cabeza. Ezekial in the Ghanaian, the Ghanaian winner was basically stopped a coal power plant and changed that into a solar plant, basically, and did that through grassroots activism. Lady Peck, I think. In Mexico, she's an indigenous Mayan beekeeper and led coalition that successfully halted Monsanto's planting of a genetically modified soybeans in the Yucatan.

Lucy Pinson and Pinson in France, Lucia, maybe she successfully pressured France's three largest banks to eliminate financing for new coal projects and coal companies. And they then chemo in Ecuador. She is an indigenous activist that protected 500000 acres of Amazon forest in her territory from oil extraction.

And then another one that kind of hit close to home is Paul saying in Myanmar. He's a Korean activist that created a one point thirty five million acre peace park along the Salween River, which is a major river basin, a major biodiversity zone, and a place where the Korean state and the current state is on one side. Thailand's on the other side. And Myanmar has been trying to basically eliminate the Korean state as a as a place and as a people for years and years.

And there's been a rebellion there on going off and on for dozens of years. And so this was a peace park, a way to stop the war in this area and protect nature. And so all those people are heroes. They're all incredible activists. Cristol among them. And it's an incredible slate. And I just felt bad because I was supposed to celebrate with Crystal in San Francisco at this great gathering. Right. Do they have some big fancy gallery?

Yeah. And the fancy gala, you know, like Crystal comes from humble origins in Bahamas. And her her father and her parents go to Florida every once a while, but they never been to San Francisco where this was going to take place. So she was kind of bummed. We were bummed for her. But, you know, at the same time, it's it's gotten her lots of attention and press all these activists. And it's a great thing for all of them.

It's and it's recognition for life work without them looking at. She didn't even know she was being looked at for this. Right. So they do it in such a really stylish way. And Robert also celebrating her life on this. Oh, wow. We'll drop the links and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Goldoni price tag. It's a one hour. You could actually watch the Sigourney Weaver hosts the one hour presentation and you can get there's mini docs on all these on each one of them.

Yeah. So these docs are getting made and these recipients aren't even aware that by the time the docs are being made, they knew. I see. So they do research on you when you don't they don't know if they're a candidate. You know, it's not like you submit or you lobby for this.

No, but like even the docs, like in the case of Berta, when she was down there, the activists were were I mean, there were threats against her life the whole time. And when the Goldman people went down there to actually do their mini doc, it was no puff piece. Like they got into some real trouble. They wondered if they were going to get out alive. Wow. So it's like real and sometimes some years it's real reporting in areas where there's real conflict and and real stakes.

Life and death.

Wow, that's cool. Yeah. Yeah. I was not familiar with that at all. That's that's pretty cool. And it's like, you know, I like every one of those people that you named.

I'm like that would be a good person to learn more about that also from Heroes, all of these people. Yeah. And I'll drop the link to the Baja jackassery story too, that I. Reporter for Playboy. Cool. Congratulations, Krystal. Congratulations, Krystal, Crystal, Lambros, people, let's do some listener questions. OK, this is from Joe in northern New York. Hi, guys.

First, thank you both for your doing this role. And and thank you for the podcast. As I know, it's been very influential for me over the past year and a half. And so I'm 42 years old and I live in northern New York. I'm in this place in my life right now where for the first time I feel like I'm living in a period of stepping onto my own path. I've already discussed this concept before, the notion of living authentically, paying attention and looking for doors that are opening for you.

I'm looking for some guidance about navigating this experience. I've always valued humility as a character, strength and now feel a tension between my usual humble mindset and the feelings associated with recognizing the call this path. It's almost as though you need to have a certain amount of ego involved to maintain the confidence necessary to believe that you were on the right track and that the door is really about you. No one else has done exactly what you're doing. It's the strange tension that I've never experienced before.

I hope this makes sense and I would love to hear your thoughts and any advice you could give me. Feel free to play this on the air. Thank you both.

Thank you, Joe, for that question. Northern New York is a place that I'm glad I'm not in right now because I know what it's like living in upstate New York at this time of year. It's very cold and dark. So sending your good vibes from sunny California, this is an interesting question.

I mean, it's it's a bit esoteric, which I like.

And in trying to wrap my head around how to. To answer this, I guess the first thing I want to say is, of course, you need ego. I feel like there is this tension that he's having between humility and ego. Right. You need healthy ego in order to move forward in the world. Right. That does not exist at odds or in contradiction to things like humility. You can be humble with a healthy ego.

And those things coexisting, I think, is where I want to focus my answer today. You also need patience for this kind of journey. And with that healthy ego and humility and patience, it's about learning to lean into intuition, which I think he's already understanding because he's saying looking for the doors that are opening for you.

Sounds like he's got something. Sounds like he's excited about something. Yeah. Yeah. Like what's beneath here. Like, we don't have specific. So I don't know exactly what's going on, but I feel like something has woken him up that is getting that sort of shaking the sleeping self a little bit and energizing him in a certain way. And I think looking for those doors that are opening is key here, like learning to lean into your intuition about which doors to walk through, I think leads to a certain hyper vigilance around your environment.

Like the more you're paying attention, the more you're going to see those doors or learn how to discern the doors that are opening from the ones that you should yourself close. So it's about paying attention to the signals that are being given to you. And I think so much of this is about not sweeping change or grand gestures, but really micro adjustments, like when you're in that hyper vigilant state and you're thinking about this move and you're trying to identify those doors, it's about when you're saying yes and when you're saying no.

And I think saying no is equal. Equally important, if not more important, than looking for the opening the open doors, right. Like you're going to have to say no to stuff you're used to saying yes to, and that can feel uncomfortable. And that's a practice that I think you have to kind of acclimate to over time and can be practiced in these little micro scenarios where it's essentially a low risk situation. But I think what's most interesting to me about this question is, is Joe's perception that there's a conflict between his innate humility, this character trait that he obviously values in himself and living authentically as if to step out and into this more authentic version of yourself or to follow, you know, whatever this instinct or intuition is, must be some kind of ego trip.

Right. Like that, that by doing this, he's engaging him in his ego and he's betraying his his humility that he prides himself on.

Right. And I don't think that that's the best way to look at this. I mean, you need confidence in yourself, Joyce.

Well, I think it's a I think it's a well, let me explain it this way. You need confidence in yourself. You need faith. You need patience. But these things are not selfish.

I think there's this false. Comparison that he's drawing between this drive for authenticity and it being an ego, a selfish ego trip, because in fact what it is, is an act of self love, like you're honoring yourself by listening to your intuition, by following that muse and creating boundaries around. That isn't an ego trip and it's not selfish. It's actually protecting what serves you. And I think that that requires conviction and courage. And those are laudable traits and inhuman in a human being.

So I would encourage you to not look at this as as ego egoistic or selfish, but to flip it and to understand that it's actually selfish of other people and the world to want or expect you to be something that you're not. So if you've been living your life in a certain way to fit into a box or to please other people or for whatever reason, and you're worried about stepping outside of that because it feels self-serving or egotistic, consider the fact or consider what's kept you in that box or kept you limited in those ways and those forces.

If they are external forces, those are the self-serving forces, right, and and you catering to that is an act of self betrayal in many ways. So I think interesting letting go of that ego aspect and understanding that it's self-love will allow you to move forward while also honoring and embracing this idea of humility with the whole thing. I feel like you're picking up on like some sort of like external definition of humility and ego that was transferred to him when he was younger.

Well, let's talk about humility. Like when he's saying, I feel like this is a this is, you know, an affront to humility. Like, is it humility? Like is this truly humility that he's considering or is it sheepishness? Right. Like, oh, when I stay small in this world, I'm being humble, but maybe you're just afraid or maybe you lack the confidence to actually be yourself. And it's not, in fact, humility.

So the question that I would pose and leave for Joe is, is is there a sense that you're not entitled to. Live your life your way. And that to be humble is to stay in that box or to stay small and and so he was thinking of anything that is like self promoting is considered ego kind of inflating. But you're talking to Rob Bell Lenzen, right? Right. Exactly. So elaborate finding that finding the joy.

And you know what Rob Bell also said and finding the joy, but also the freedom to be able to to be in self-love and, you know, sort of congratulate be your own biggest fan of your life. Yeah. And he knows he also said is it's not egotistical. It's humbling. That's something he specifically said in that. And it's true. Like if you if you really embark on something, doing something that that that feels like is connecting to your soul and what you're meant to be doing here, you're going to find it's more humbling than it is ego for me.

But I don't mean that in, like, beware. What I mean is that, like, it doesn't have to be in a negative way. It can be in in in like you feel so at one with the cosmos somedays. Right. That you feel like a speck. Yeah. And that is humbling in a way that's like wow, that's how big the world that's how beautiful the world is. And I'm playing my little part and it could also be the other way, which is, you know, you might get kicked in the face a couple of times to see if you really want to do this right.

It is humbling innately to go on, branch out on your own path and try to do something that that you that you didn't know that you could do or that you just dare yourself to do. It is a humbling act, right? I think right.

Bellwood So we're leaving, Joe, with this idea that what he thinks is ego is actually humility. And what he thinks is humility is actually ego and fear because he's attached to this story that actually is false.

Yeah. Or that's certainly one way to look at it. Right. And if it gets you on the road to doing to self actualizing, then look at it that way. Right.

And Joe, if this doesn't resonate with you at all, then you get your money back.

Yeah, I'm refunding you because I don't know enough about the story, but I have a feeling we might be onto something there.

And caller is just so you know, I'm trying this new thing where if you are concise with your question, it gives you a better chance. That's the Skolnick algorithm I knew.

Algiere, you want to game the algorithm, keep it short, keep keep it short and to the point and also, like, just be really clear thinking and, you know, might help a lot of these. You can tell some people are reading from a script they've written themselves and it's easier to answer a question that's a little bit clearer. And even though that that was esoteric, it still was clear he still had a very specific thing he was asking.

Right. He made his way through the algorithm. He made it through. All right.

Let's go to Seth from Wisconsin. Go to Seth. Hello, Rich Adam.

And this is Seth from Madison, Wisconsin. It's listening to the podcast has been transformative for me ever since I first came across an episode, a solo road trip I took after my divorce. So your podcast became my soundtrack for that soul searching tour of national parks. And my question revolves around the distancing that can occur in relationships. And in the relationship with my ex-wife, my poor self-esteem and the avoidance of discomfort about me, from what Bush said in one of your interviews, from being seen and truly seeing my ex-wife.

So endurance training and a plant based lifestyle is transforming my sense of self and avoidance tendencies. But I'm curious as to what practices that you both encourage, that couples can cultivate that close to distant second build over time and help both partners in a relationship see each other. So thank you for the opportunity to ask a question. Take care and please keep doing what you're doing. It means a lot to people. Thank you, Seth. Thanks, Seth.

Also coming to us from a very cold part of the world. Yeah, and it's a divorce question. I love divorce questions. You do? Yeah.

Well, let me say this. When that divorce relationship question. Right.

Poor self-esteem and avoidance of discomfort.

Is like the perfect one two combo that fuels isolation, that keep that that keeps a lot of people stuck, get some stuck, keeps them stuck, and also is very effective for keeping people at arm's length. Right. Like, if you don't feel great about yourself and you're not comfortable with any kind of conflict or doing anything outside your small little zone of comfort, then you're unlikely to take any risks with other people. And that's going to keep you separated from other other human beings.

So when I hear those two qualities, I think what's behind that combination and I hear somebody who feels like they they don't have a voice or they're not entitled to have a voice or to speak their truth, somebody who's afraid of of letting anyone else know who they really are and perhaps somebody who even feels undeserving of love itself.

And I think the avoidance of discomfort is rooted in the sense that if somebody really knew you, if they truly understood you, if they could see right into your soul that they would leave you right then that you're you're you're not worthy of love.

But I think what I would urge Seth to do is to look at how these tendencies maybe contributed or in some way led to to the dissolving of the marriage. I mean, obviously, we don't know anything about what happened there.

But those things, you know, that avoidance of discomfort, that poor self-esteem, you know, those are ways that they're like coping mechanisms to keep you safe. Right. And to prevent you from being in the position of being hurt.

It seems like he's figured that out like that. That is right. But ultimately, that manifests the very thing that you're trying to avoid.

You get hurt. Right. So in truth, it's the vulnerability. It's the taking risks. It's the willingness and the courage to, you know, whether that discomfort that ultimately creates the intimacy.

It's counterintuitive, right? Like if I stay safe, then I can be in this relationship and I'm not going to get left. But you have to take the risk to pave the road for intimacy that brings you closer.

So as uncomfortable and as counterintuitive as it is, that's, I think, the growth arc for this person to embrace vulnerability, meaning revealing your how you really, truly feel, being willing to be honest with somebody else about your insecurities or your poor self-esteem or what's bothering you and the willingness to have the uncomfortable conversations, you know, understanding that they may lead to a conflict, but it's only through that kind of like tension that you can come to a place of understanding and bonding where you have some suggestions in terms of how to cultivate that.

Yeah, I mean, a couple of things. I mean, I think some of them are super basic and elementary. I mean, the first thing is, you know, if you're trying to create this bond, you've got to you've got to set aside time for conversation and treat that as sacred rather than just saying, well, the next time I see this person, I'll try to do it. Like if you establish it as a formal thing that's calendared and respected by both parties, you're creating a crucible like an environment in which there's expectations around that kind of thing transpiring.

So setting aside time is super important. I know that, you know, it's scary if you're somebody who is conflict avoidant or afraid of that kind of discomfort. So the best way to get over that is to start to practice it in a low stakes environment. So maybe not with your ex-wife, but find a friend who you trust and and, you know, use them as an experiment, like say something vulnerable, like take a risk and try to have a conversation that gets you that shakes you out of that safety zone a little bit, knowing that that person, you know, is somebody who's close to you and nothing bad is going to happen.

And I think that will help you acclimate or get a sense of how this can work and then over time slowly increase the intensity, take a little, you know, bigger and bigger risks until you're ready to kind of do this with your ex-wife. I wouldn't, you know, do the trial run with the ex-wife, because my sense is that that might be too perilous at this moment.

You can do push ups to get ready for something like that or even like if it's for a new relationship, which it could be for. Mm hmm. Think of these things. You know, it's still good to get the muscle work and. Yeah, you know, with a friend so that when the next relationship comes around that you're ready to be who you are. Right.

And and what a burden you're carrying around, trying to prevent that person from seeing who you really are. Like the weight of that is tremendous. And when you let that go and let somebody in, there's a huge release and the intimacy that comes with that is tremendous. And the other thing I would suggest is in these exchanges or in this dynamic to always this is something I do all the time and I do it on the podcast, is to lead with vulnerability.

Like if you instead of waiting for that person to give you the feedback or to say the intimate thing, like, you've got to go first. And I think when you do that, you're giving the other person permission for that level of intimacy. You're saying this is safe. I trust you. You can trust me.

And then with that, it's practicing how to listen, like, really listen, because the most valuable thing that you can give another person is your time and of course, your full attention.

And the more that the other person really feels like they're being heard, then the closer they're going to feel to you and the more they're going to gravitate towards you. Staying out of the other person's reaction to your attempts at intimacy I think is important.

If you're wed to a certain result, like I'm going to have this conversation and then this is going to happen, then you're setting yourself up for disappointment. So it's not about the result. It's just about engaging in the process of being open, vulnerable and intimate and trusting that over time that's going to breed the intimacy that you seek. But trust takes time. So patience, I think, is super important.

And then. The esteemed piece, I think, is super important and and I you know, forgive me if you heard me say this, because I repeat it all the time, but self-esteem comes through performing esteemable acts, whether it's on behalf of others or for yourself, it applies to yourself as well.

So simple things like setting healthy boundaries and making time for those that you care about investing and helping other people, all will slowly open you up and ground you a little bit better and make you a healthier person for your current and future relationships.

And then the final thing I would say, sorry, do you want to say something?

No, I'm just agreeing with you. Yeah.

The final thing, and this is important, too, is to forgive yourself, to, like, let it go, because there is this narrative about I'm somebody with self-esteem and I don't like, you know, to be uncomfortable.

And I'm afraid of this and I'm afraid of that. You've got to rewire that neurology and start telling yourself a news story, like, in other words, letting go of that story and opening up to perhaps a new and better story. And again, those push ups, those little actions that you're taking will help inform that. But that story is likely hardwired into you and pretty calcified. So it's going to take some work and practice and intentionality to to create that new narrative.

But that's the work now.

And I think. Yeah, and the only thing I'd add is that, you know, distancing that can occur in relationships. I mean, I think there is a certain as relationships mature, there's going to be a certain areas of freedom where people can operate and you don't all, you know, relationships can evolve and distance. It depends on what you mean by distance, but you can operate in different spheres and function differently. And as long as you have that, like you said, you have the the space to communicate, you're listening, you're being vulnerable.

You are not reacting and not expecting certain responses or certain things coming your way. And you feel good about what you're giving to the world. In the end, that distance won't even feel like distance. It will just feel like your life is working. Yeah.

And there's something about just owning your truth and being who you are. Yeah. And the more that you do that, the more you can kind of stand on your own two feet and it becomes less about what that person thinks of that and just about you and your relationship with yourself.

Know, and if you do all that and everything your wife says, everything will be fine. Just that you're just a wife, you know, a wife. All right. Let's go to Michael. Sorry. Hey, it's all right.

Here's Michael. You have another cold, cold winter place right now. Sorry, but I'll be the idea.

Yeah. Hey, Rich and Adam, this is Michael from Boulder, Colorado. And certainly fun to play this on the air. I can't tell you both how much I really enjoy the new role on addition to the podcast. I look forward to listening to it every other week. It's thankfully becoming part of a routine for me. Anyway, I'm 55 years old and I've been active really since high school as a runner triathlete, but really primarily as a cyclist of the last thirty years.

My question is around heart health and endurance activities for an athlete. Now, heading into my late fifties, I recently signed up for a couple of lengthy gravel bike races. But in the back of my mind, I have concerns with this type of activity and heart health. Living in Boulder, Colorado, I've known and certainly heard of a number of athletes that have died or had heart issues with either training or racing. You know, I know there are a number of factors at play, genetics, lifestyle.

I'm primarily plant based. I'd be curious to hear of any advice or changes that you both have discussed or considered, which you're trading off. Certainly put a greater premium on recovery these days. Training for a day where I'll be in the saddle for seven to 10 hours will still require considerable effort anyway. Much gratitude to you both for engaging in intriguing format. And I appreciate any thoughts you can share.

Thanks. Great question, Michael. Let me preface my response by making it very clear that I am not a doctor. I'm certainly not a cardiologist, but I would encourage you to see a cardiologist and develop a relationship with a cardiologist. I think it's always a good idea to have your heart regularly tested, get a calcium scan, get your blood work done. It's all very easy. Do you do that very affordable? Yeah. I had a calcium scan done like a year and a half ago.

I should probably get another one, like starting at four. We recommend that.

I think even I think even sooner, you know, all the cardiologists that I've had on the podcast, you know, say the same thing, which is that, you know, the plaques in your in your arteries begin in your teenage years. It's not like you wake up at fifty and suddenly you have a problem. Like this is a progressive thing over many, many years that's informed by genetics, diet, lifestyle, all of these things. It's complicated, but being a.

Out of it, I think, is important, David, call cardiology. Yeah, get me a stat.

So at least you have a baseline to know what you're dealing with, right? If there are cases where people get a calcium scan and are alarmed to get some crazy score because they're completely asymptomatic and then they realize like they have to deal with stuff. So that's a good idea. Of course, there are cases of endurance athletes that end up with heart issues. And you hear this a lot.

And I don't know what the statistics are on this and I don't know how many how much of this is outlier versus versus, you know, majority or anything like that.

But I think it's important to not live your life in fear and not use those those incidents as an excuse to opt out of life or to make excuses for yourself. I think it's important to be prudent and responsible and appreciate the fact that as you age, you're not going to be able to do things like you could do them in your 20s and that we need to gauge our efforts a little bit more consciously than we needed to when we were in the past.

And, you know, the question is really specific to things that that I do or that we do. You know, my life is very different now than it was when I was training for Ultraman. So my training is at a very low boil right now. But even in the event that I was to sign up for a race that would be eight or nine hours or 10 hours or whatever the gravel race distances that you're you're thinking about, some of the things that I would think about and take seriously is not over training and not being chronically exhausted.

You know, I don't think that those are good ideas as we get older and to pay much more attention to recovery, nutrition, et cetera, particularly recovery and all, the kind of pesky little things that are annoying, like foam rolling and body work and getting, you know, adjustments and having active, you know, tissue release and all of those things I think are really important, which is hard right now.

Also, it's hard because. Yeah, right.

But you can get devices that can at least help you with some of that stuff until we can safely do that again. Also, it's important to train responsibly. You know, this is not something you know, if you're going to be out for nine or 10 hours, you don't want your training to be you just winging it. And, you know, I know I'm just going to go out and ride my bike and ride hard when I feel like it.

Like I would encourage you to get some professional consultation, whether it's a coach or a training plan of some form, and paying attention to how your body is responding to that on a day to day in a week to week basis so that you're not overdoing it.

You know, I feel like at 54, I love just going out in that, like, zone to mode and enjoying myself. And that way I don't get run down. I'm not over training. I'm giving myself a workout. But I'm definitely more gentle with myself than I would have been ten years ago even and do it for the joy of it. I think it's important, you know, to the point of, you know, endurance athletes having heart problems for every person like that.

There's a guy like Don Wildman, who I was talking to Laird Hamilton about, who was just killing it up in two, is up through his eighties on the mountain bike, just destroying, you know, every young buck in Malibu, you know, with his, you know, Jack LaLanne asking, you know, lifestyle.

So, you know, there's guys like that, too, who who, you know, went all the way to the end and lived a very long and fulfilling life, basically doing what he loved to do.

Yeah. So I guess those are my thoughts on that.

Even Dan Beutner's guy in Loma Linda who was swimming into his 90s, that doctor plant based guy. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I forget his name. Dan had him on the Today show. It's on of my tongue. I know who you're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. But that guy wasn't doing he wasn't racing. No. But he was still active and you know, you know, Michael lives in Boulder and you know, everybody in Boulder looks like they're ready to win Ironman at times.

So it's a it's a very, you know, hyper active. Yes. You know, and competitive environment and. Yes. And middle aged guys, especially with so many of them. Yeah. You know, to be honest, I'm Michael, I'm right now, I've got an ankle thing, a back thing in my back, fully locked up on me. I got a neck thing. I've had, you know, my biggest of the baby.

I have the baby. I'm like, I haven't been. That's the main thing is I haven't been doing my recovery. I've been doing the yoga. Obviously, massage is out. And so the recovery stuff backs up on you. And the next thing you know, your body starts to rebel. So but I've never done the cardiologist's. I never had a calcium scan. So this is all news to me. So I don't have it really. But that's why we have the guru of Ultra here to tell you how to do it.

I would I think that makes sense to think about these things. You know, as I'm getting older, I'm in my late 40s now, as I'm getting older, I think about it, too, you know? You know, I think it makes sense to think about heart health. I think you're doing the right thing by even bringing up the question. I think it's something that probably a lot of people in their fifties think about. And we've all heard, you know, when we were kids, it was Jim Fixx or whatever.

I forget who it was, the runner that. Right. It was. It was was Jim. It was Jim the guy who wrote that book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He died who died quite young.

Yeah. So there's always those crazy horror stories and of course people you might know. But and and in Hollywood the stories were always like the fifty year old producer who had had blow in his system, died on the basketball court. Very different. Very different than Boulder. Right.

On a very tactical level. A couple of things that you could do since you're living in Boulder, you probably have a heart rate monitor drop already. Like this is not going to be news. You're born with it, right? But if you don't, that would be one thing that I would do. Get a heart rate monitor, track your heart rate when you're training, understand what your zones are. So you know specifically which energy systems you're training, which will help you be more efficient to pinpoint how to work the systems properly without overdoing it.

And you might want to look into to getting like a woop, you know, because a woop basically is very good at tracking your recovery, how you're bouncing back by monitoring your heart rate variability and also your respiratory rate. And all of these kind of markers help inform the level of strain that your body is prepared to endure. And that could be a tool in paying attention, paying better attention to your heart health. Yeah, and I'm sure there's plenty of doctors and perhaps cardiologists in Boulder who are well versed in this subject because it's so much a part of the culture there.

So find the right person to be your consulting partner on this and don't you forever.

I just did our twenty minute run zone to the whole time. For the first time, I was able to look at the smile on your face and it felt great and my back was killing me. My ankle is fucked, but it was a great time. On that note, this shall conclude this twenty twenties roll on the. Yeah exactly. On that note. Awesome man. So I don't know when we'll be back with this. It will be at some point in the New Year.

Stay healthy everybody. Enjoy the holidays. Happy holidays. Love your loved ones.

Be kind, be grateful and I'll catch you in twenty, twenty one because we are putting this fucking bad boy in the rear view are we not. Twenty twenty is gone. It is done and dusted. We are, we are done with it. It is not quite yet done with us but it will be soon. Very soon. How do you feel.

I feel great man. This was a good first first session and breaking in the new studio. We did it man. We did it. Look good. Feel good. Feel good. You ready for the January break. I am.

Travels kind of out the window. So the first feature. Yeah. I don't know exactly what I'm going to do.

Maybe get on my car, drive around, but we'll see. Adventure. Yeah.

Cool. If you want to learn more about Adam, you can find him at Adam Skolnick on all the fun social stuff that is owned by the giant conglomerate. They're all on MySpace antitrust violations right now.

No, no. Yeah, that's true. You can find me at Rich Role, if you would like your question answered on a future edition of the show, you can leave us a voicemail at four two four two three five four six two six. If you want to game the Skolnick algorithm, keep it concise and clear.

You don't sing, sing if you want. Do what you want. Yeah, make it easy. What would Rob Bellshill do to make it crazy? You're going to do it. Put your imprint on it, baby. Oh, don't be afraid.

Don't forget to hit that subscribe button on YouTube, Apple and Spotify. There will be show notes on the episode page roll dotcom with links to all the stuff that we talked about today all the way. I've already compiled all those links, so plenty of stuff to dive deep into today's subject matter.

You can also submit your. Questions on the Facebook group, but honestly, leave us a voicemail, it's more fun that way. And that's it. Appreciate you guys. I love you. I don't take your attention for granted. I loved you on the show. It means so much to me that you guys are on this journey with me and tuning in. So I will see you back here at some point in twenty twenty one.

I'll be back and enjoy all the shows that we have banked and all the intros that I've already recorded for them. That makes it sound like I'm in the present moment, but I'm actually in parts unknown, parts unknown.

Cool until that piece of glass. I must say.