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At this altitude, I can run flat out for a half mile before my hands start shaking. Can I ask you a personal question? Now, at the same time. Cybernetic organisms living tissue over metal embryos go to Paris, so. This episode is brought to you by all form, if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you've probably heard me talk about Helix Sleep and their mattresses, which I've been using since twenty seventeen. I have two of them upstairs from where I'm sitting at this moment.


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Visit,, today to take care of the important things that need to get done. That's,, legal zoom where life meets legal. Well, hello, boys and girls, ladies and germs, this is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to another episode of the Tim Ferris show. This is a special edition, the random show with Kevin Rose, my good friend, a serial tech founder and entrepreneur and investor of all different types. He really spans the spectrum, does a lot of things.


And in this episode we talk about many things. It is called the random show for a reason. After all, surfing the waves of covid, deleting social media apps, ZENN quickening. Strange because Kevin's been enjoying some of the best in the world, it turns out, for not that much money grilling investing. We talk about investing towards the end and we cover a lot of ground. A few caveats. We are not registered investment advisors or professionals of any type.


We are not medical doctors. We don't play either on the Internet.


And anything you find in this conversation is for informational purposes only.


So before taking any action on anything in this, please consult your local qualified professional. And with all that said, please enjoy this wide ranging and rambling conversation with Kevin Rose.


Here we are again, here we are again. I love it. Good to see you. You're in the the the dark cavernous. Is that a man cave? Is that a bar where you live? Yeah, it's very light colored alternate universe. Yeah. You look a lot more peaceful than my kind of dungeon. I'm down here in the this is the bar actually but it's now its office was a bar. It was kind of a cool place to hang out and have people friends over.


But in covid times it's an office. And I got a mic hooked up here and on my computer crap and mail and all the other stuff.


So if you like all of your BDM dungeon equipment as high that is behind do that is you do you want to talk about that?


No, no. Look, look, I am actually in my acupuncture office. You may recognize the acupuncture shelves behind me. I am in fact in an acupuncture office. But it's not mind as you just renting one out. Already done. I'm borrowing fast wi fi in an undisclosed rural location where my Internet speed is otherwise zero point five megabits per second, which doesn't allow us to do calls like this. I am on a farm and in the middle of the woods I'm a bear living about well, in fact, probably hundreds of feet from me at times.


Like a real full on bear. Yes, a huge black bear. But it's a huge bear. It's a gigantic healthy black bear.


Like we haven't really trained one kind of thing or not trained, no tricycles, no tricks, no dancing and on the sidewalk for pennies. This is a wild black bear we haven't yet met.


I've met Fox, Coyote, all sorts of other animals, but have not yet met the bear. Just seeing photographs that my friends have taken.


Have you done bear training? I have not done any bear training.


So that's a real thing. Yeah, no, I have. But our mutual friend Mike Mazher sent me photos last weekend. He went up and did some. He lives in Montana and he did some bear training like they bring those real loud bears of the taculli you. That's where it's like wrestling with big dudes with beards. Is that pretty much a San Francisco style? Yeah, exactly. I think I did oter training when I was in San Francisco, but no real legitimate bear training.


I've done raccoon and squirrel my my two certifications. If if people have not actually seen Kevin's raccoon video, he's not lying. He didn't actually do any raccoon training. But you got thrown into the swimming pool like turned into an Olympic swimmer in real quick to defend your your your little pup. Towcester people can search Kevin Rose record and get to that. I haven't done bear training. If you're in Montana, you need a legit bear training because you have terrestrial great white sharks, a.k.a. grizzly bears, which are very, very different from the supposedly the black bears are pretty chilly.


They they seem like they avoid humans and tend not to prey upon humans. So that's a good thing. You carry Bear's bread, though, I take it I do not currently carry bear spray and make a lot of noise when I'm hiking, but that's about it. At this point, I probably should do more research. But one of the things I've been getting into is plant, and I suppose this would be a subset of that. But tree identification.


So that's been spending a lot of time on. I've been doing probably two to three hours of hiking in the woods per day, and that involves a whole bunch of gear aside from my my lack of bear spray. So I wear a limited tick pants. They have Permethrin in the fabric. So you avoid ticks, which is super important if you're anywhere, certainly on the East Coast and anywhere else. And then have you ever seen a go rack rucksack?


I believe they're based in San Francisco.


No, I don't believe so. There are backpacks designed by while the CEO and founder, his former special forces to carry. Customized white plates, so for a a replacement to running, because I like to think that I like to want to run, but I don't actually enjoy running very much in it. It bothers my knees. You can do these weighted hikes where you'll have, say, 20 or 30 or more pounds on your back. But the backpacks are specifically designed to carry these square weight plates that sit high on your upper back so that you can have better ergonomics as you hike.


And it's been awesome.


I'll just I was curious about that because I have a weighted vest that I have, you know, the standard one like you order on Amazon. And I was used on the treadmill sometimes just for like a super low grade, but, you know, adds an extra 15 or 20 pounds. How is this I take a position the way to position better so you don't hurt your back the way that it's pitched.


And I've only used a weight vest once, just as a quick side note. So when I use the weight vest, I had no point of reference. This was probably two thousand eight or 2009 when I was working on the four hour body and I thought I can work with a weight vest. And this is I think it was before they used weight vests and the cross fit games and so on. And I had no idea how much weight to use.


And I was like, oh, I'll just get like 50 or 60 pounds. That seems like a good starting point. So I put on 60 pounds and I would usually go for like a three mile walk in San Francisco. And I got three miles out and I was like, I'm fucking done, I can't do this. And so I left the vest on the sidewalk and walked back. I couldn't I couldn't hack it.


It was also in the summer. But if you read the website would be led to believe that the vests have more of a suffocating effect because you also are carrying weight on chest. These are intended to mimic more of long distance piggybacking or ergonomics you have. Right. And it's actually piggybacking, but with the weight higher up on your back. So I've found it surprisingly comfortable. I have some spinal issues in my upper thoracic back, so let's just call it lower cervical.


And wearing backpacks for long periods really bothers my back. But these bags actually allow me to train, usually for no more than about an hour and a half without any subsequent back pain, as long as I don't overdo it. So it's been it's been really nice to build up the lower legs. I'm also jumping rope using both in a way to prepare for possible trail running and feeling great, feeling just fantastic. I'll listen to audiobooks or do phone calls typically while suiting up two questions.


One, I had always heard at least back in the day, like when you're backpacking, it's always to get a backpack where all the weight is kind of pushed down to your hips. You're carrying it on your hips and it's not so much on your back. Why wouldn't you want something like that? And to your jump rope point, did you hear that Tyson's going to fight again? I did hear that Tyson is going to fight crazy. It is crazy, the hip stuff.


All right.


So the hip stuff, I would imagine if you are carrying a lot more weight or if you're just hiking for efficiency and not as a workout, that probably makes a lot of sense. What I have found personally is that if I have a backpack with a weight strap and shoulder straps, maybe I'm just using them incorrectly, but it tends to pull me backwards and I jut my head forward quite a lot. There are training recommendations and guidelines on this. This site.


I think it's just go rock dotcom and I follow this. So they encourage you not to lean forward. They encourage you to stand up straight and very deliberately. Do not have a chest strap or a waist harness. I'm sure you could train with other approaches. But the fact of the matter is my let's just call upper middle back always hurt after a short period of time carrying backpacks wherever I would be walking around in the city, whether it was San Francisco years ago or in Austin or elsewhere, and doing this, I got a great workout.


But without that subsequent, it's really spinal pain, basically the musculature of the spine or maybe even the connective tissue. I've had some.


And so when it seizes up to I don't know how many times you've had your back sees on you where you like, you just can't move. Oh, my God. It's like it's the worst it is. Yeah. I have two little monkeys, like hanging on me all day long with little girls, you know, and I'm just like that is tweaky one way or now, like I'm in my 40s. Like if I cough my with my head pointed the wrong direction, my back because it's like it's like seizes up on you.


Well I feel like that's a good segue to what lazy bastards we are compared to Tyson, who's in his fifties, isn't it.


I know it's like almost 60. So let me ask you a question, like straight up. Ten million dollars. No, no, no. That's not enough money for Tim Ferriss. Tim Ferriss. Two hundred million dollars. No bullshitting. No phone of the. Ground, would you step in the ring with Tyson today? Absolutely not.


No, there's no fucking way you could win.


What? No one absolutely would not win. Do you have a black belt? I mean, yeah, in judo. I mean, it's sport judo. It's very different from like raised in I think it is.


But Brownsville with, you know, how many rounds could you guys just. Oh, absolutely. We're talking boxing or anything, unless I jumped guard and just hung on for dear life like a koala bear, I would not last one round.


I probably wouldn't last minute. I think you could last one round. I don't think so, man.


If you covered up completely, like you just put your arms in full throttle position and just let him punch you in your arms, you're fucked. Yeah. Most people have not been hit by a trained fighter. I've been hit by train fighters. And it's a lot worse than you think it is. It's a lot worse. And as someone who's had head trauma before and concussions, because I was never a very good striker, I was I was a better grappler.


And it wasn't a great grappler either. But I was I was decent with a lot of wrestling background in judo and so on. But I would just get whacked in the head of everything. Spaceballs or yes, of course, wear dark helmet is held at bay with one arm and is swinging. It isn't hitting anything. I was basically dark helmet whenever I sparred because I was heavy for my height and so I'd end up with these goddamn six foot two hundred and fifty pounders who had just tee off on my head from a distance non-stop.


And I ended up, I think, with some long term damage and consequences from that. So traumatic brain injury I have zero interest in these days.


So I would not for any price, not even if it was like grappling like my style with Tyson. The problem is I wouldn't risk it. I wouldn't risk it. Yeah, definitely get in one good show. That's right. That's right. All of this all takes right. Like he you could try and then he just needs to get the right angle and then you're out.


It's just over. The other thing to remember, too, is that speed goes with age. I mean, speed is one of the first things if you watch, say, Roy Jones Jr. or a lot of these fighters who had a winning style predicated on speed, once they lose half a step, they start getting knocked out. Tyson was very, very fast, but he's also ungodly strong and he's got old man strength that has not diminished. Have you watched those videos?


I have watched some of his back. And he is? Yeah.


His pad and network videos will go and we'll put them in the show outs for people to check out. Mean if they just search, you know, Mike Tyson new videos, I'm sure they'll pop right up there. Terrifying. They're really, really terrifying because I've been hit by some decent strikers. And I mean, do you feel afterwards you're the bruising of your brain? I mean, your brain is bounced, ricocheted off the sides of your skull like a big ice cube being shaken and a fucking shaker.


And that's not good for you. You know, can contribute to depression. It can contribute to dementia, early onset Alzheimer's.


Like, I am so uninterested. Yeah.


I'll take my chances with the bear over Tyson any time. I don't know for for our body. Tim would have would have been interested you a few years ago for our body. Tim was like Evel Knievel like I'm going to jump Grand Canyon and just wipe out into the wall, break every bone in my body. And at the time I think I just assumed that I could automatically repair all of that. And the fact is not to imply that there's a lot of that in the book.


I don't think there is.


But there's a certain sense of immortality or invincibility that you have when you're younger, which you you learn is very misplaced when you get a little bit older. And that's not to play the crotchety old like, oh, my God, once it's third, it's all downhill. Once it's thirty five, it's all downhill. You always meet lazy people who say that shit they don't want to put in the work because it takes a little more work when you're not in hormonal nirvana to keep that little python that swallowed a goat physique in a dead body at bay.


But the fact of the matter is like without higher testosterone levels and so on, your recovery time and and everything else is extended. Right. So I am so uninterested in injuries these days, especially during covid. Right. The last thing I want to do is put up some home based pakora course and like braises trying to scale the garage and then have to go to the emergency room. No way. Thank you. Roy Jones, Junior on with Mike Tyson.


You don't know what Mike might do. Is it Roy Jones Junior that would be a huge weight class mismatch. Let me just fact check this real fast.


Roy Jones Junior was boxing not that long ago, right? It's been a while. It is, it is Roy Jones, Jr.. Oh, it is Roy Jones Junior. Eight round exhibition fight Shippy. Super, super interesting. Rojos Junior. I watched a lot. And these are both fighters who.


Capitalized on incredible speed. And now they're older, they're both strong, taison absolutely has the strength of, oh, Jesus, Tyson is five, ten to 40, Roy Jones Jr. is one ninety three. I don't know. His height is because it say here know one ninety three to two. That's a big difference. Yeah. You really don't want to get hit by either of these guys so. To make that exhibition looks like an exhibition fight on September 12th, that's really soon that.


Roy Jones Jr. is going to have to dance. He's really going to have to dance and I don't know the last time that he had a dance card with stakes quite this high. I mean, and he might be laughing all the way to the bank, but honestly, it's like if Mike Tyson hits you hard enough, you're going to have trouble finding the bank. Yeah, exactly.


Oh, my God. I'll definitely watch that fight, though. Are you kidding? It's crazy. It's good to see them back, though, man.


You know, the cool thing about it is I saw Tyson being interviewed and he pledged one hundred percent of the proceeds to charity. He doesn't care about making any money off, this is it. That's not where his happiness comes from anymore. Like it just seemed like really like a different version of Tyson that was refreshing to see.


You know, seems like he's done a lot of a lot of work on himself. It seems that way.


I mean, it's not for years anymore. And I'm fighting off ears. That's a good start and stop development, stop biting off ears. And it seems like he's done a lot of work as a video on which was an interview of Tyson describing his five MCO five methoxy DMT experience. Oh, crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know who the the sitters were for that, but. You either have to be really, really, really good with lots of safeguards or you have to be incredibly fucking stupid to be in a room where you volunteered to hold down Mike Tyson.


Money is done by the D.A.. Fuck that. I know that. Yeah, you get a big padded room and you kind of have to do it via like. Yeah, through the phone. Yeah, exactly.


All right, Mike, here's the two. Here's the tube through the window. Exactly. They're going to do great.


Oh, my God. It's like the whole Gwenny, like, erupts then just like, you know, you can't contain them. Yeah. You don't want to be a you don't want to be anywhere close to that.


So what have you been up to, man? It's been actually quite a while since we've caught up. It's been at least a few weeks since we had a proper, proper conversation.


Yeah, I know. And then our last podcast that we did, I mean, we were just in like a horrible place. Like our last podcast was one covid was really starting to hit. And we're both like, well, we'll see. I hope to see us sometime. You know, we thought the end was near. You still kind of feel that way, though, huh? Well, not the end, but lots of changes for sure.


I'm less concerned about the virus wiping out everyone, which I didn't think was going to happen to begin with. But I didn't like the at the time what we understood to be the characteristics and kinetics of the virus. Still very, very glad that I made the public statements and published the blog posts that I did, which I still stand by. But I am very concerned about the. The secondary and third order effects of economic destruction and high rates of unemployment.


Very understandable anger and frustration and strong emotions coming from not having work, not having a sense of purpose for millions of people, and also just having a very, very polarized political machines were capitalizing on that heightened emotion to try to further their aims on on all sides.


This is this is this is a defining, I would say, characteristic of a sort of opportunistic political maneuvering.


So I'm I'm very concerned about the country. So I'm not the game is far from over. If we had a working vaccine tomorrow and were prepared to distribute, what percentage of the US do you think would volunteer even if they were told that that it were mandatory, who would comply? What percentage of the population do you think would comply and actually get a vaccine? And since we don't have any state to state. Restrictions in terms of travel, I mean, there are recommended 14 day self quarantines and so on, but there's no real enforcement.


There's no real follow up. That's right. Yeah. So, I mean, what percentage of the country do you think would actually take a vaccine fully distributed, thought to be effective? Yeah, I mean, I guess it also depends on the window of time that you're talking about, right? I mean, I think that a lot more people will take it a month versus month one. So I would say that. Well, I guess the question, though, is, does it really matter?


Like you and I are going to take it right? Like there'll be a certain subset of people that won't. And, you know, it's like you're kind of rolling the dice with your own life at that point. There's you've done all you can do.


Yeah. I mean, it sounds horrible to say that, but like, how do you you can't force someone to, like, stick a needle in their arm. So you have to do the best you can at education, at demonstrating safety and efficacy and then, you know, hope for the best. I would say, though, it's probably going to be more than you would think. Well, what percentage of folks get the flu shot every year?


I guess that would be a good proxy. Yeah, I don't know. And then and then I would say it will be higher than that because flu is very optional for a lot of people, not as deadly. So, yeah, it's hard it's hard to to back into a number like that, but I would imagine it would be somewhere around 70 percent or greater. Would you think you you're probably thinking like 20 percent, I'm thinking 20 to 30 percent by month three.


That would be my that would be my guess. That's what are you doing at month one? You know, this is this is where we're going to get ourselves into trouble. I'm not a medical professional not giving medical advice. I would not want to be the first monkey shot into space. But we might edit this out later because I also don't want to discourage people from getting a vaccine. But if we're breaking every land speed record in. Developing a vaccine for a virus that we understand very incompletely.


You know, I have my own misgivings. I do think vaccines are incredibly valuable to the individual and to community and humanity overall, and we we simply don't have a lot of data on on this virus. So we'll see.


Your point about the economy, though, that I think that's going to be the difficult piece of this in getting folks back to work and getting the average consumer to trust restaurants again, to trust bars again, to trust all of concert venues, all the things that we used to do to to drive up the economy. And, you know, I just can't see it bouncing back as fast as people have said it's going to. I think I think we're at minimum a year and a half to year.


Yeah, tough, tough, tough trench, so I got, as you put it, as you poetically put it to me some time ago, I think we're in for a slow donkey, I think.


I think we are looking at a slow donkey here.


Sometimes people call you and you're like, there's no way I said that. Like, I definitely said that, like something I would say. So well, here's the crazy thing, man.


Like, I've been thinking more about universal basic income. And and the one thing the biggest at first I was like, no, there's no way. Why do we need it seems like a waste of money. Just giving out money doesn't seem to be a solution for anything. And then two weeks ago, a new API came out from a group called Open API, which is this artificial intelligence group. Have you seen anything created by those three? We've seen this at all.


I've seen Krosoczka experiments with that. I haven't played with it yet. He's he seems incredibly impressed. I don't know what his involvement is, if any, but it's it's coming. So what I see seems nuts. It was some of the demos that I've seen lately. Are you give the AI a couple of websites you like, his website I like. And here's another website I like. Now design me a website that looks like those websites but is about a text based messaging app.


And it literally created a beautiful ready to go fully designed website and like minutes that it came up with Honeysett.


And you're like, well, there goes all the graphic design jobs, like, you know, like maybe not in the next six months or next year, but that is where it's going. And like that's going to be on a whole, like EHI is going to kill so many technical jobs. And it's it's just crazy. I don't see any way out of this.


Like, it's become like a basket weaver or a potter or a cult leader.


Those are that's a medium that's the first thing Daria's that I was talking my wife about it. She was like, you know, it's going to be down to like artisan craft, like the I can't do like touched by human hands. And I'm like, well, yeah, but like, how many people need baskets? Like how many, you know, I mean, like how many artists in like artists do we need to be doing this. Like I just don't know that there's that many jobs there.


So maybe something like universal basic income does make sense when eventually that hits. And I worry the talk, the talk now on the street is that a lot of these jobs just aren't going to come back.


You know, the talk on the street, that's a phrase you used the street like Wall Street. Oh, yeah. It's got the word on the street and the neighbors are saying, I got it.


All right. Yeah. The jobs aren't going to come back. Yes. I mean, if this is like V0, right. If this is rough draft, it's hugely. I mean, it's awesome in the 18th century sense of the word, right? I mean, it's awe inspiring and kind of staggering in its implications and also really terrifying. Mm hmm. It is.


It's like writing books now, like you're going to be soon out of work as you see some of the stuff it's writing, like you can say, write me a bedtime story and then it just goes and creates these beautiful like you could take that tweet a couple of words and like, put your name on it and people will do that. And it's not going to show up again in any plagiarism dictionaries or anything like that, but it'll be like 90 percent written.


So, I mean, that would be a way to rough draft stuff. Right. As although I have to imagine it's pulling from other sources that might end up then having claims of plagiarism, but not from other sources in terms of creating its mental model and understanding model of the data.


So but so are we. All right. Like, the only reason you can write your books is because you're pulling from all your childhood experiences and all the other crap.


So it's the same all the crappy childhood experiences of Xhaka for those people who don't know very, very, very successful investor, previous operator, first fund of delivered something like 250, I guess, and has done very well. He drafted a number of tweets and then let open I but that's not the phrase he used. What was the other term that you used. Oh three three. What does that refer to. That's just their most recent iteration of this type of technology.


It was two and now three. I don't know what the GOP stands for exactly. I can find out, though. Catchy, catchy. First, I thought he was talking about Grand Theft Auto, an e-book, which we and I wasn't sure what he was texting me about. And he wrote a string of tweets and then he let three write the next two or three and. Effectively impossible to tell apart. I mean, they did seem like tweets that he would write is spooky.


It's really cool if for those of you that are listening, they're like, I have no idea what these guys are talking about.


Like, definitely go on Twitter, type that in and just look for they have so many examples being tweeted out. They're just fun.


They're crazy and fun and wacky and but but it's one of those things where you realize a major shift has happened. Like this is truly a big shift in that, you know, I talked to Siri today and it doesn't understand half the shit I'm trying to tell it.


And you go into what you watch, what this thing can do, and you're like, wow, like this is an order of magnitude better than what we had just a couple of months ago.


You know, it's very tough to predict what the slow dog is going to do. Slow dog time I found.


OK. Oh, my God. That's so fucking creepy. Then why does Siri. Because I said, hey, Siri auto activate it on my phone and then had slow donkey. I didn't get that. Could you try again. All right, Siri, that's enough out of you boy.


So you ask asking what we've been up to. I mean, I just for me, it's been more the same in Portland, though, you know, just kind of like enjoying the protests out here, like not enjoying them. That was a joke. It's been really brutal downtown in Portland. The weather's been fantastic. But, you know, it's like you got to look on the bright side with all this stuff going on and and try and find ways to, I don't know, just return to some resemblance of some kind of normal.


And I don't know how you do that for for us. It's like Darren I like on Friday nights, even though we don't leave the house, like we actually get dressed up like we're going to go out to dinner. And I know that sounds cheesy, but it's like breaking that pajama routine is a big deal, you know, and like eating outside now is nice. Like we have a backyard in Portland so we can go and eat outside, which is a huge change.


But yeah. How about how about you guys. How is it what what have you been up to. Well, it's made a big difference, at least from my mental well-being, to move from a more urban environment to a very rural environment, to have access to wilderness.


Got some muck boots for people who are looking for some bushwhacking boots. Muck boots are amazing Knee-High boots that you can wear through mud and anything you might want to walk through. They're not actually that suffocatingly hot for your feet. So I'll throw those on. I'll throw on the tick pants and just hike for hours. And there's so much land and so much of the US that you if you're able to move yourself from point A to point B, and there are a lot of areas outside of Austin, outside of a lot of major cities, L.A., outside of New York City, where you can find space that has been incredibly clearing for me.


I also deleted all social apps from my iPhone four weeks ago. That's crazy. You know, I did that a couple of months ago. Yeah, I did the same experiment and I it's been fantastic. Yeah, I have I've I have missed exactly nothing of great importance that that I'm aware of meaning. I talk to friends, I. Will occasionally on laptop look at. Say things that are trending on Twitter that might be relevant to anything that I can affect positively, right.


Or areas where I can mitigate risks or something like that. But the vast majority of news is going to make you either anxious or really pissed off. And if you're not prepared or able to take action on something that is within your sphere of control, it's really just creating energy leaks that will drain you. And I realized. Somewhere between six and eight weeks ago, that I was extremely fatigued, was very tired, and it was, I think because I had so many stimuli in the form of different notifications or apps on my phone, social etc, which were creating these powerful emotions without any ability to direct them towards something positive and actionable.


Does that make sense? And so I've so I so deleted them from my phone and talked to a lot of friends and also will talk to members of my team and employees. We do team calls of various types and feel like the signal to noise ratio has improved so much since I did that.


And I will occasionally, probably twice a week look at at replies on Twitter because my listeners and readers are extremely helpful in helping me to find high signal articles or research studies that are really relevant to things they know I care about and focus on. But outside of that, it has been such a freeing experience and I really feel like social, by and large has been a huge net negative. It's so crazy that we came to the same realization like two.


A couple of months ago. I posted on Instagram my final post saying I'm not going to be on here for a while. And the same thing with Twitter. And I removed all of them from my phone, all the apps for my phone. I and I stopped looking at them all together. I have not been on Instagram since. It's been like, you know, at least a couple of months. And I have gone back on Twitter because like you.


Well, two reasons. One, I see some people communicating with them. They're over DMS that I don't actually have their phone number. And so sometimes there's important things that come through. And then also there is important stuff in terms of the research I do for my job and investing in tech companies and all that like it is a good source of that type of data. So I still kept it off my phone. So it is a desktop only experience for me now.


And I will tell you, you're right, I think Zaidee goes down a ton. The notifications to your device goes down and you don't realize, you know, it's funny. I don't know if you've got this feeling, but the first week I was opening my phone up like, oh, when I was away, I don't have the app anymore. Did you get that, like, like a few times. You're like, oh, wait a second.


I don't I don't have that app. The other thing I did, which you might want to try, this is kind of and this is this is just dumb stuff that people are listening like don't like. I'm not trying to be holier than thou when I do this type of stuff. It's just like it's fun to do this little micro experiments. The other thing I did is I said, OK, how can I reduce the stress on my phone even more?


And that would be uninstalling even more garbage that I don't use, that my may or may not send me notifications, but with every app is like a micro mental burden somewhere buried in there of having just like one more thing to check or one more thing that is a potential distraction. So I said if I can't fit the apps on the home page, I'm not going to have them on my phone. So no swiping sideways for more apps. So basically I have one that you just have folders with like seventy five apps and you have folders.


But here's the rule. The folders, the folders can not swipe sideways. So I only so that means a total of nine apps and folders. So basically this is my, my home screen right here. And so you can see I just have this option there. Is that now the bottom. The people are looking at the bottom, the bottom, the I do have a screen that goes sideways that I put all the apple utilities and crap. You kind of can't uninstall the Compass app and the measure app and the calculator and like all that stuff in its own little slide folder thing.


But what are the categories in those buckets? OK, so here's what I have in my categories are audio, which means for me that's pocket casts, music app and Spotify, audible sonas for home stuff and Pandora. So that's good health. I have waking up, I have the strong app DexCom or less zero for learning all the language learning apps that I want to go back to and Lumosity and master class and then finance stuff. I have one screen of that which is Personal Capital, Financial Times, Wall Street Journal.


Well, friends, I like playing around with clarity, money and Barron's and simplify. And then I have home apps like Home Control and a home means like I got a trigger barbecue, which has been a fantastic addition this summer, by the way. So I also got a trigger. That's really funny. Yes. Yes. What did you get?


Looks like we're on parallel tracks here. The the one that Timberline 870. I got the I actually did get the Timberline 870, that's fucking crazy. That's the one I got. I did get that. And so I have that in Austin and at the undisclosed rural location, I have I think it's a 650. So I got a slightly smaller one because I looked at the 70 and I was like, OK, maybe it's like you can cook, you can cook 20 chickens at one time.


And I'm like, I don't need to cook 20 chickens at one time. So I got a smaller, smaller unit. No, maybe I did get a small unit as well. Now you have me curious to see which when I got it doesn't say on the app right away. I think it is the smaller of the Timberline version. But anyway, that's it. That's great. And so last last one to the home stuff has like things like that where it's like, you know, Ring and Lutron and that stuff.


And to be clear, you have an app, you have a trigger app which helps you to control the grill so you can check your temperature and so on and so forth. Yeah.


So I just by the way, wild salmon is running and it's on sale right now. But it's it's I've been smoking salmon like crazy. I've gone through six or seven different recipes. I finally found the perfect smoked salmon that I'll I'll send you which one on the trigger app that is. It's fantastic. But you've got to let it cure. Twenty four hours. That's the key. You got to love it. Can't do any of these like little Robbs or you do like two or four hours.


You've got to do a full twenty four hour cure on it.


Cool. I've been, I've been dialing in the trigger like crazy.


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Yeah, I've been cooking a lot. Period, right? We've been cooking a lot at home and cooking a lot of venison also. I don't know if I don't know if you even know this, Kevin, but I ended up. You know, you definitely know you can you can confirm this, I invest in very, very few things these days.


And about a year ago, I invested in a venison harvesting operation in Hawaii called the Maui Nui. Then is that for those people who are not watching the video? Kevin is laughing and really thought to myself, there's no way this is ever going to make any money. But I like the ethos and the principles behind it because access deer are an invasive species in Hawaii. They've destroyed a lot of ecosystem. They've damaged or compromised coral reefs because of runoff after removing vegetation and this Operation Harvest's access deer.


And they they just approach it in such a thoughtful. Such a surgical way and the meat is so incredibly good, Peter. He is obsessed with this also, by the way, and which he and he's the one in a way, who convinced me to combine the trigger with this this mãe newie venison. So the leg medallions are better for cooking indoors, but rib racks, steaks, all of that are just incredible. And you've probably realized this on the trigger, that one of the benefits of having and for people who don't know what the hell we're talking about, this is a wood.


This is a wood pellet fueled grill. You could also think of it as a smoker. And in a lot of ways, I tend to think of it more as a smoker than a grill, because you're not going to get it's more difficult to get, say, the searing on a burger in a tree.


There's no direct direct flame. That's right.


But but if you cook ribs at super low temperature, like one hundred and sixty five or one hundred and eighty five, you just get the most incredible flavor. Oh yeah, I did. I did ribs last night. I did some heritage pork ribs. By the way, speaking of trading places to buy meat, have you used crowd cow at all. I've not used to cow.


You know, there are a couple of these companies I have used butcher box, which might be similar. I'm not sure. I don't know. Crowd cow.


Yes, the crowd cow is essentially what they've said is like, OK, there are, you know, a dozen or so probably more amazing farms in the United States that these like small, little, tiny mom and pop farms that don't really have a way to get proper distribution on mine. First of all, they don't even know how to set up their own online site. And so let's go to them and put them on our site. And it's only like the best small little amazingly run farms.


And also they work with Japanese farmers as well. So they get in some of the best value that I have ever had, a five certified with all the holograms and everything on there. And they work with a couple really small farms out there. And that that's fun stuff. So do you choose you then choose the farms you want to buy the meat from you pick individually? Yes, you can do it. I think how they started was like you had to kind of put together a portion of a cow like X number of pieces, and then you would say, like, you're going in on a cow now.


It's like all that's a feature in there somewhere. But now it's like all a la carte now. So you can just go, I just want some amazing reviser. I want to Iraq and like, they're just right there ready to buy. Cool. Yeah. Boutcher box kind of mixes and matches and you get a membership so I have to pour. Could be from them as well.


Another one that is close to our long ago home in NorCal is BHEL Campo. I don't know if you've tried any of their stuff. Now Delcampo has incredible ribis. So those those are the two non venison sauces that I've I've been trying these days. But that's that's about it. As far as is Niko's. I've tried to really do a take out less, not less is more. But like if you're going to eat meat, like, really do it in as thoughtful way.


As possible, which I recognize is in a sense, a luxury, right? I mean, it is because we have the means to sort of explore some of these options and some of them aren't cheap. Certainly triggers aren't cheap. Triggers aren't that expensive, man.


They make ones that are further down the line that aren't the fancy, fancy ones that actually do a great job smoking. My buddy has one of the ones you can buy at Costco, and it is it's phenomenal. And they're not they're not crazy. I mean, they're not cheap, but they're not crazy. Crazy. We're not talking thousands of dollars or anything, you know.


Yeah. So. So I've been enjoying really paying attention to the fundamentals for me. Just harkening back to what you said about us being in a pretty bad place, stressed out place. I mean, I was in a very anxious, stressed out place for a really long time. Once I kind of saw the comment of covid headed towards know planet Earth slash United States since early February. Right. So I've had this low grade or high grade anxiety for months.


And eventually you just get fucking tired of the anxieties you want to figure out approaches to to lessen it. And for me, it's it's really been. Keep it simple. Stupid, right. Eat good food, cook food, take time to prep. It's super meditative. If you're using a sharp knife, you got to pay attention. Are you going to chop your little pretty fingers off? And I've been doing heavy training, so heart rate variability training with breath work and the jury's still out.


I've been doing that for five weeks, twice a day for twenty minutes. Can I ask what that practice looks like? Yeah, it looks like using an app. I'm using one called breath or actually it has a very generic name. But this is not to imply that it's the best app out there, but it's still on breathing. It's just called breathing. And it's a circle that opens and contracts to help you time the duration of your inhale and exhale.


What is it?


What is the you know, sometimes of the four, seven, eight breath, there's five and a half seconds and five.


This one is I think I'm doing three point seven second inhale and six point three second exhale. And I arrived at that or I didn't. I'm working with a doctor. I don't want to mention her name just yet, but I'm working with a PhD who sent me a kit which includes a pulse oximeter, which you put on your thumb to track your pulse and heart rate and then buttocks as well. Right. And blood, although I think we're looking less at that and then a a respiration strap.


So it looks like basically a bra that you put on under your hips and will be just above your navel. And as you breathe and it expands, there are sensors that track that. And so you can correlate. And superimpose your breathing on your heart rate, and she would then take me through it, would we would you zoom, share a screen, and she would take me through different exercises to identify which.


Duration of inhale and exhale seemed optimal for me in terms of activating my sympathetic I'm sorry, my parasympathetic nervous system, so more more of a autonomous relaxation response. And if people have trouble separating the two is a sympathetic you can think of stimulating equals stimulating, sympathetic like fight or flight fight, flight freeze. It's not quite that simple, but a useful shorthand. And then parasympathetic would be more of the letting go calming. And I have incredible hyper vigilance.


I mean, I don't think we're going to get into it today, but it's a lot of gnarly stuff happened to me as a kid and my system, well, as she would put it, I have cardiac hyper reactive. So little things will set my heart rate shooting to the ceiling and then my heart rate will stay elevated for hours. And and that's part of the reason to the tune of what, like, what, 90 beats a minute?


They are not crazy, 80 to 80 to 90. But that's I mean, if we're talking like six, seven hours, that's a long time. I was worried you're going to tell me something worse. But, yeah, that is that is that's like, you know, that you probably should be walking the dog at that rate, you know what I mean? Like, that's not just sitting there that that is elevated.


Yeah. And your fatigue has been this lifelong battle of mind since, I would say age 16, 17, especially with Lyme disease on Long Island and all of these undiagnosed Lyme and then later diagnosed, which is how now the people are familiar with serologic testing. You know, I was tested with when I when I was suffering acute symptoms. And they said, well, you're positive for the short term antibodies, but you realize you've already had Lyme disease because you're testing positive for the long term as well.


And so I've really tried in the last my dog's dogs and all over the place you can see, whereas you remind me this is you can kind of see, but I think she has to pay.


I might have to take a little break to let her out.


But long story short, this fatigue is like my battle right side. Without sufficient energy, you really can't execute on anything else. And by excuse. Well, I would include, like, relaxing and enjoying yourself, right? Like, if the tank is empty, the tank is empty. So the fundamentals, the food, the heavy meditation, all these things have been focused on identifying. Cracks in the vessel where I'm leaking. Energy and a lot of those.


I've found to be really helpful. I like the jumping rope, I'm not talking about like ten rounds of jumping rope, I'm not like Tyson getting back into shape to to try to lop Roy Jones Junior head off. I'm talking about like three to five minutes of jumping rope first thing in the morning just to get outside to make sure I get outside into some sun ideally and move my body. That's it. And if people are interested in the the intersection and the interplay between exercise and the brain and brain health and brain neurotrophic are brain derived neurotrophic factor.


BDNF, there's a book called Spark that gets into this. But if you want to get out of your monkey mind, at least for me, one of the fastest ways is through the body. And it doesn't take a lot. It really doesn't take a lot. Get outside, walk for a few minutes to jump rope for three to five minutes and then go back inside. So those are a few of the things I've been doing. I don't know if you've found any routines or other practices helpful.


Yeah, you know, it's funny, I've just now recently started getting back into meditation, but in a in a different way. You know, before I had done Samms course, which I think that you've done as well as nurse is waking up.


And so are you still doing the tantric self pleasuring meditation that you told me about, the one that you zoom with me on? Yeah, we're still doing Wednesday. Exactly.


No, no, this is it's interesting.


I was I was on Sam's app and this was a several weeks ago, and I saw that there was a new course on there by Henry Shukman, who is a he practices a certain lineage of Zen and he's based out of where is the base of not Arizona, but New Mexico. And he just had these beautiful ten minute meditations on the Zen koans. Do you know much about Zen koans? Yeah. Yeah. Paradoxical sort of statements or parables that are intended to, as I understand it, intended to derail the rational mind and to sort of sideline the rational mind.


So, like, what is the sound of one hand clapping type of stuff?


Right. And there are these beautiful little unsolvable riddles, you know, that that that that are part of the practice and that they will meditate with them and on them and then take back their kind of insights that are gathered from these over time back to their teachers. And it's kind of like a you know, you talk them through with your teacher. There is no real answer to them, but they're used as very difficult to describe. But they're they're used as a part of the Zen training.


And so I had was very fortunate to reach out to Sam. And Sam introduced me to Henry. And Henry has since come on my podcast. And he had a book that he recently published called One Blade of Grass by Henry Shukman. I'm just pulling it up right now. It's on Amazon fantastic book that talks about it's basically a biography of his life and he talks about all the struggles that he faced. He had severe eczema all over his body where he was like hospitalised, bleeding knuckles, like really bad for four decades.


How do you spell his last name? It his last name is spelled S.H. UK. Imagine. Got it. Thanks. And so, yeah, he's a he's this fantastic Zen master. And I, I, I read his book and he talks about his path to these stages of enlightenment and how he was able to slowly over time. He was one of these people that had a very early experience and didn't even know how to put into words what had happened to him because he wasn't training at the time and then later went into Zen and had other experiences.


And then all the way through to today, where he describes the falling away of basically of everything, the just everything falls away at some point during this training.


And it's a beautiful story on Zen and really just reemphasized to me that that I mean, he's he's had a career as a writer and he was an award winning poet and Oxford trained, very busy, productive human wife, two children, and has still been able to go off and obtain these very deep life. Well, he's now kind of flipped onto the side of the they're lasting now. The changes are lasting versus going back to reality after a couple of weeks.


Fascinating story, but also. Just one right by the end of the book, I was like, I need to get back into Zen, like because I told you at some point you knew I used to come to my house where I live, right next to the Zen center. But my my first training in San Francisco was at that Zen center. And then I fell away from it because I didn't really take it seriously. But yeah. So Henry is going to help me really get back into Zen.


And he's I'm I'm excited to to go to has the mountain cloud Zen center that he runs. And I'm going to be taking some courses there. And I really want to take this seriously. I figure I'm in my 40s now. It's time to devote a decent percentage of my life to this type of training. Like I feel like it's time. I'd love to hear you elaborate on that, because I know you've tried all sorts of different types of meditation, still interested to know if you recommend the surrender course, but I do.


Michael Singer. Michael Singer.


But you have you've explored these various tools and modalities. What is it about Zen that differentiates it for you or that you find attractive? Right. Because you could you could reach out to or get a hold of your one of your magic powers is getting getting hold of anybody. Basically, you want to get a hold of wisen. What is it?


Oh, I would say that when I first took my when I first took the introductory course to Zen, I appreciated the mystery behind it. In some sense, I was attracted to how it could be a strict discipline in some ways, like, you know, like kind of one of these things where you show for zazen and if you're not there the second you're supposed to be there, they'll keep you from coming in and you reject it. Or if you want to train and actually set up a residence there, like you have to prove it by sleeping outside for like two months.


Like all these stories you hear that Henry actually talks can be but can be super hardcore or like he let you go to the Zen room and you're you're separated by these, like, cubicle walls. Right. And so you're you're sitting in zazen. It's like seated meditation with your face about a foot and a half away from a wooden wall. And then if you start to nod off, they might hit you with a little wooden switch, right? Exactly.


Yeah. So, you know, I kind of I was initially attracted that now Henry's discipline that he's into, that he's teaching is is a little bit more laid back, which I which I can appreciate because this is like, you know, when you're going to you had to enter with your right foot when you're entering into to say it like you have to enter into the room the correct way.


You can't cross over the mat in the wrong way, like there's all these rules, right. Too many rules. But it's also very Japanese, but it is very Japanese, which I you know, we all both of us really love. But the one thing I will say about Zen is that especially with the way that Henry has been teaching, at least that that I gather through his book and through our conversation is that they're they make.


Enlightenment less mysterious and less about being a perfect person and making it actually seem like it's something that is attainable by everyone, and it doesn't have to mean that you're this ultimate spiritual guru the second you snap into these different states, states of consciousness, and that there are these really beautiful moments when people have this flip, like this flip in their brain, the switch that goes and then they're jolted, almost shocked into this the state of consciousness, like sometimes like this, the stories of the Zen masters with a look at a student the right way and the student won't grasp it and the student can't.


There's been they've been teaching and sitting and they just can't. And they'll just shake them in a certain way and it'll spontaneously jolt them in the right way and to enlightenment and these funky little things like that that are just like beautiful stories. And like, you know, you always take a lot of that stuff with a grain of salt. But coupled with this koan training, which I which I highly recommend listening to on on the waking up out there.


Fantastic by Henry, it just it's it checks all the boxes that I'm curious about. And I think for me, the curiosity at this point is the most important thing because it's encouraging me and it gives me the drive to go and sit for a half hour every morning consistently. And that's what it's going to take. It's going to take a real dedication. And I think that if I can get the proper training coupled with these koans and I don't know, it just I I've done the transcendental meditation.


I've done a few other disciplines. And this one, for some reason, maybe it's because I'm in Japan, I feel like I don't know all the reasons, but I'm attracted to it.


Cool. You know what the training is going to look like and what the meditation sessions are going to look like. Yeah, I mean, they're very simple. You just sit. So it's like, well, I'm more interested in what what happens inside the head.


So you sit maybe you shave your head. I would love to see you. The shaved head would be hilarious. So I can kind of thing.


Yeah, we can we can be cueball together, get you some black robes with some some white underlinings. Good. Good luck for you. You kind of already have that look.


You get to see me with robes long before we've been in robes together and you already got that one. But OK, you sit and then watch what happens on the inside. So I think there's there's a few things. One, the question initially is there is there's kind of table stakes to play in the arena. And I would say like to to even get to that point, at least for for me when I've what I've been told and what I can gather.


And I'm saying this is someone that is, well, pretty new novice to this new sect of Zen. It's just sitting and trying to quiet the mind, and that means counting meditation's counting to 10 and repeating yourself following the breath. It's it's that classic Zen posture of looking at the wall, not closing your eyes, kind of glancing somewhat downward towards the ground with a fuzzy awareness of everything going on in the room, but no strict focus on any one object.


It's saying to yourself, a thought, a distraction. It's OK. It is. The weights in a gym is what I need to get to the next level of of of this. And so not getting upset and getting the mind to where it's a little bit malleable and kind of getting to that place where the sits are becoming longer in duration. But also the mind is calming down a bit. I think Henry said it best in his book. Actually, this is a I'm going to butcher it, but I'll I'll tell you the gist of it.


He said the Zen is like pulling the plug, being a boat in a bathtub and pulling the plug of the drain. And initially, you kind of just notice a little bit of swirling, a little bit of like movement of the boat. And then you look around and you see the walls of the bathtub are a little bit higher and you're like, oh, that's odd. And then you notice a little bit more movement and all of a sudden you start to twist and then all of a sudden you notice that there's a swirl going down the drain.


And then there is the total annihilation of all things. And that's where you're headed. But you don't. But you have to sit at the surface for a while and just kind of like slowly realize that even though you're not feeling it, the daily practice is unplugging the drain and you will eventually get there. So I'm terrifying. That's a terrifying description. Oh, dude. Wait to read his book, his description of his last traunch of this. Passing into this, I think you would actually really like it, because it reminds me of a lot of our conversations that you have had around like ayahuasca and some of the ego just disintegrating in cattle death control deaths.


And he's getting that without any drugs, just like intense, like multiday meditation kind of things that that happen, you know, for for, I guess a lot of reasons.


I think that scares me more because with with the T. you're like, all right, I'm going to go to Crazy Town for four to six hours Earth time, and then I'll be back to some semblance of like normal computation and absorption of what we call reality. But with the Zen practice, with that description, it's it's almost like a slow motion psychotic break engineered for yourself. And that scares the living fuck out of me. So that's I don't know how to back out of that.


I don't know to. Yeah.


Yeah, you can't. That's the thing. That's crazy, dude. I mean, when you read this book and you get to that point, I'm freaked out by this because when you go there, all of a sudden you're viewing the world as an illusion, as a completely different thing than you ever have before. And there's no going back. What is Dariya, think about this issue? Supportive. Yeah, she listened to my interview with him when I did the podcast, and she was like, yeah, he sounds amazing.


And this is the path you want to go. Like, I support it.


I mean, I don't think she's not worried about you, like, I don't know, wearing your shirt backwards and picking a navel, like staring blankly at like the wall. You have to you you have to listen to his post analysis of what happened because he wrote the book after all this happened. And I'm curious to know if you would enjoy this world. I think you would. It sounds beautiful, like every moment is a new and just listening.


And there's so much it's fascinating.


I'm going to butcher at all, I think, much like you with me in my various psychedelic experiments, of which there are now many, many, many, many thousands.


Let me think for you. It's a lot and you've kind of let me be the guinea pig. I think I'll let you be the first monkey shot into space on this slow motion engineered psychotic break. Tell me how that goes. Yeah, I mean, that's here to support, I think. Well, it's not like you're going to see me in six months and I'm just going to be levitating. Like, this is going to be like a if I if I do it correctly, this is going to be like a thirty year kind of journey, you know, to get to these these places or, you know, who knows.


There's no there's no pinning a date unless he unless he, like, grabs you by your ears and shakes her head and gives you the the Highlander quickening like you were describing. I love that I actually grab you by your eyebrows and bite your fucking upper lip and like, throw you off your chair. So crazy. That's exciting. Yeah.


You should you should check out his book, One Blade of Grass. I highly recommend it to anyone listening. It's a fun article. He has a fantastic, you know, British voice is from the UK. So his his audio book is is fun. Is a fun listen. You know, yeah, the British accent gives you an automatic plus 20 points of IQ, oh, one hundred percent at least for at least for any Yanks listening to my God.


Such a such an upgrade, you know, I wanted to to thank you for something you introduced me to, actually, because I've been consuming a ton of it. You remember when you gave me some peak t the.


Yes, the Pike Youyi for anyone wondering, not inexpensive, but their powdered pu er I've actually been having almost every morning for the last while and it's fantastic. I've been having that usually before I do. So the sequence for me would be. Wake up immediately, do the breath, work HRB meditation for 20 minutes, then heat the water to like 170 pretty low temperature just because I don't like continually burning the fuck out of my mouth when I forget how hot something isn't an insulated mug, then putting in the air with.


I dunno if you've ever tried Laird superfood creamer, the unsweetened stuff, it's basically powdered oil is one way to think about it. And I've been fasting. Well, if people consider it fasting, I've been semih fasting until late lunch a lot recently. And so I'll have that and then go into the say jump rope and so on. But the peak is it's really good. It took me a while to get into, but I appreciate you introducing me to that.


It's funny because I, I, I never know, like sometimes I'll reach out to like any time you plug me as someone they can get you stuff on your podcast and stuff like that all the way. I plug you like well everyone. Well we'll do a podcast together and you'll be like, oh dude, thanks for that recommendation.


And then like a week later, a hundred random emails. Hey, I had this like seizure. Can you get to ten like he would love. I just like everybody comes out like I'm like you're like basically I try all this shit then the good stuff I pass on to you so.


Well I actually try and that's the peak is a cool company. I met with with the founder and we were chatting about how he creates some of the stuff because they the thing that's unique about it is that, you know, so many times, like T is, you know, it's like you stop it and you discard the leaves when you're done, they step it, crystallize it through this like crazy process, and then they make it instant. So it's like you can just pour it in.


You'll have to think about you don't have to think about keeping it. It's like if you took every T and made it into Moccia. Right. Right, exactly. Yeah. And so it's it's really easy to consume and you can't screw it up, which is a lot of people receive their tea and they're like a so bitter and so, you know, and it's like, no, it's not weird and strange, it's just that you've overstepped it.


That's the main complaint. But anyway. Yeah, it's awesome. Yeah, they do, they do quality stuff. I'm glad you got glad you're enjoying it. Yeah, what what else is what else is new in your world then? Oh gosh, I would say. New stuff that I'm into. Well, I've got boring stuff like I'm getting into salmon fishing. That's going to be next. Oh, I've got one.


I've got one theory. I don't you're the top guy. I'm the idiot who is like, you know, in twenty, twenty two, I'm like, I found this app called WhatsApp. It's really great. And you're like, oh boy. Here we go. Yeah. So I am I am pretty slow on the uptake when it comes to apps, but I did find one because I was I as I mentioned. Doing a lot of hiking, have been doing a lot of hiking, and I'm in a very rural area.


I don't want to wander onto somebody's property and have somebody, like, come outside of the shot going to be like, what the hell are you doing on my property? And I also want to be respectful, right. I don't want people showing up at my house, but I really wasn't sure how to identify property boundaries. And if I met someone who hunts locally and introduced me to something called the Onex Hunting App, and it's just Onex and Onex Hunt is the app.


And I'm not going to necessarily use this for hunting, but what it allows you to do and they give you the premium features for free for seven days, which is super, super smart. If if they're actually listening to this, I would I think they would get such better conversion and probably increase their revenue 40, 50 percent, at least from this particular app. If they had an onboarding process, which they don't. Right. There's no automatic tutorial that I saw, which meant I had to kind of fumble and go find online for cues and to figure it out.


But the Onex Hunt app allows you to see. Property boundaries. It allows you to hit track and track yourself as you hike. So maybe similar to a strava in that sense, but in this particular case, it's for it's for wilderness. You can save maps offline so you can use them when you don't have reception. You can look at topographical view, satellite view or combinations. You can take photographs. So, for instance, if I find something of interest and I want to share that with someone, I can take a photograph, geotag it and then just share it with someone else who's on the app.


And it's cool because now it actually also covers fishing as well, which is great. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a it's an extremely, extremely cool app. So I've been using that on a pretty much daily basis in it and really, really enjoying and who knows, maybe I will use it for hunting. I don't how much I do it pretty infrequently.


But if I were to travel to say Hawaii to hunt access deer, which maybe at some point I will, it's not not particularly easy to do. I don't even know if I could get permission to do it, but I would use something like this so that I could see how much mileage I'm covering, where I was, where I went. Perhaps we go on a scouting trip during non hunt hours or on a non hunt day, and I could take photographs of particular locations that I think might be ideal and save those.


And then I can go back and review that. So I've been I've been loving it. That's that's that's an app that might not otherwise come across your radar that you might get a kick out of playing with. It's cool. Yeah, it looks awesome. I'll definitely give that a shot, given how many hiking trails are here. You know, in Portland, there's just so many hundreds of miles of hiking trails just right in the city, which is crazy.


So you ask me what I'm into lately? It's actually I do have one thing I haven't told you about. You know, I've been I think that lately I've put on some weight and I have been able to shed it back off through intermittent fasting and then also doing a lot of cardio and things like that.


But how do you typically what's what's your intermittent fasting look like? Just real quick?


Eight hours a day? If I'm if I'm in lean mode, like if I want to get lean eighteen hours a day, if not at a minimum, fourteen, I think that's when a lot of the the data I have a friend out of UC San Diego, she works with Longo out there and she said that the I was just talking to her like a week ago and she said fourteen hours of what she does. And that's where a lot of the data looks really promising in terms of just like some of the longevity benefits, if you're going to do it every day.


Eating from what?


Like between what our what I well, I just basically when I zero, obviously that's the gap. And, you know, when I when I'm done eating dinner, so it's ah. With the kids and putting them down and all that stuff, you never know when you're going to actually finish your last bite. So whenever I'm done I just hit start and whatever it tells me it again then I, then I eat. But it's fourteen hours after I finish my last bite basically.


Yeah. Cool.


And so what I'm doing eighteen hours, you know sometimes I'm eating a late dinner and I'm not eating till one thirty two o'clock the next day you know, which is, which is a little brutal but it's ok, I just have black coffee and I'm totally fine.


But to the I actually the point I was going to, what I was going to chat about is that in choosing my alcohol and alcohol consumption especially didn't covid there was like this period, there were like March, April.


I was like, we're all going to die. I'm just going to get drunk the entire time.


You know, I remember that every time I Torgeir like Dada's or whatever, um, five glasses and I fuck you.


I'm like, I didn't say I see five glasses but three. Yeah. Like but it was, you know, we were we didn't know what was going to happen and it was kind of freaky. And it's like my eyes were open, the good stuff, you know.


So in in my cutting back and focusing more on health, what I've decided to do and this is kind of the crazy thing, is like, OK, wine can get nazo like a really nice bottle of wine can be thousands of dollars, like crazy wines. Like nobody wants to do that. I mean, some people I guess want to do that, but not on a regular basis. So what I was thinking is why not go?


I went to beer advocate and I went to the top one hundred beers and I've been slowly finding and buying the top ten rated beers in the world and then trying them like the consumer, like if you have ever had the number one rated beer in the world, I hadn't got it.


It's right here.


It's it's called the Kentucky Breakfast Stout and it is from topping toppling Goliath. Here, let me show you what it looks like. One Saxon's. We have video. All right, so out of the top beers of the world, I would say out of the top ten, probably seven or eight of them are stouts. So it's like the thick, dark, rich, funky, slow sip type stuff like so.


So look at the wesseling melt on the top of that school. Cool. Now, who in their hand numbered to thirty three.


You said beer advocate. I know nothing about beer.


So beer have a gash on their top, just like some guy named Tony in Newark, New Jersey is right now. I think it's community based and they have a lot of a lot of the pros and stuff go on there that are really into this. But but this Kentucky brunch stout by toppling Goliath, it's so the vintage is 20, 16. So they aged these like wine because they are so dense.


You can just basically put them in the wine cellar and let them sit for a decade or longer and then they really mellow out over time. So I just I picked this up. I found it. I found a great site, actually, by the way. I'm giving away all my best things. But people need to know about this because it's a fantastic site.


My favorite place to buy aftermarket beer and I've done a lot of research on this is my beer collectibles, dotcom.


So now you say aftermarket. It makes it sound like you're buying a spoiler for your Miata or something. What does that mean?


So what that means is this is bottle number two. Thirty three, maybe they made five hundred bottles in this year. So it's impossible to find that you can't buy it now. You just can't buy it.


So the second you mentioned is like the eBay. Exactly. It's eBay. So you can get planning the elder on there. This one I got on there too. This is called the seventy one by the same manufacturer. This one's ranked like the number twelve or something like that. It's got you can't see it, but there's like a little blackbirded stealth bomber on there or not itself but it's seventy one actually. And then all the ingredients and everything are written in binary on the side.


So these are so cool. They're like cultivated fun beers.


So you gave a price anchor on the wines, right. Thousands of dollars. Good. I mean tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands. I mean we can get super super crazy. So what, what does one of these. Very well ranked Bier's go. OK, so let me give you its wide ranging. So, for example, I got some of them, they can't be aged. You have to drink them fresh. So like there's the number one ranked IPA or I think it's a number two ranked IPA in the world is called the Julius by Brand called Tree House.


OK, so the Julias King Julius by Tree House. Right now a four pack on this side is going for thirty nine dollars. Ninety nine cents. And that's one of our number two ranked IPA in the world.


That's so cool. How fun. What was the name of the site again that you mentioned. My beer collectibles, dotcom. It's such a great URL. Yeah. It's like, it's like a janky site, but they've got a lot of great, great beers on here.


It's ongoing. It is. Yeah.


That's cool. That's super cool. You know, the the affordable vises. Right. There are certain things where you can get the best in the country or the best in the world for less than 50 bucks. I mean, there are certain categories of thing where you can go very high end. I mean, I think really good chocolate would be an example of that. Right. If you really wanted to have a treat, I mean, you don't necessarily have to break the bank to do that.


But if you're like, oh, I want to get the fanciest car, the fanciest boat, the fanciest one, I mean, you better have it inexhaustible funds or you're screwed. And, you know, at the end of the day, if you think about it, too, it's like that stuff. Ages really poorly. The those types of and neither of us collect that kind of stuff. But if if you if you think of we know people who do and it's like.


Four weeks after they've bought something, it loses its luster for most and instead, if you have this in the cases we're talking about, right, the beer or the the chocolate, there's a there's something really special about the perishable nature of it. And it's it's an experience, right?


Well, that's the key, right. It's an experience like that's what's been linked to happiness is like actually having experiences with friends and like this is sharing something like that, right?


Yeah, it's great. Well. Love it, I love it. I don't have anything, I don't have any big ones on my on my list or anything that's coming to mind.


One thing I want to ask you before we wrap up, I don't know if you'll share this. Actually, we may have to cut it. But what are you.


So the stock market is so freaking crazy right now.


It is. Gold is going up in. Individual stocks are going up. And I'm like, well, yeah, but that doesn't make sense. Like, what are you doing?


Like, what's the Tim Ferriss for our finance version of this.


Oh boy. Yeah. Be careful everybody. Earmuffs, earmuffs, cover your ears.


I'll tell you what I've. I can tell you what I've done. Yeah, what are you doing? And it's not so much doing. It's more what I've done.


And I'm glad you asked this because I recently turned 43 and. A while back, I spoke, my parents looked at genealogy as a lot of questions and determined that the average age of death of males on both sides of my family, if you adjust for some outliers, is 85. So forty three puts me past the half mile mark. Right. And hopefully I live until a hundred and twenty, but I've also lived aggressively. So my system's taken a beating and I don't assume I'm going to live that long.


So I've been doing a lot of introspection and this birther hippy kind of hard usually age. I'm just like, oh, whatever doesn't matter. But crossing past that 50 percent mark hit me unusually. And I've been doing a lot of journaling, a lot of thinking, and I realized that. No one, and you've seen this over the years, like I don't have. A high burn lifestyle. Like, I don't I don't buy lots of stuff.


And. Think if I have the ability to hike with my dog, my dog and my girlfriend are happy and healthy and, you know, occasional splurge on nice food or something, but I don't I don't really intend a flashy guy.


Like I've never seen you with a sports car. I've never seen you with a fancy watch. I've seen you with fancy horse saddles.


That's all. That's true. That's true. The old that was like probably the first time I ever splurged. People think that he's joking. He's not actually joking. So for the for the for our body, because I killed myself on that book in more ways than one and I was super proud of it. And I made a promise to myself because I very rarely celebrated. And that's that's been a weakness of mine as I don't celebrate. Right. I'm very hard on myself and I feel like you become the story I've told myself for a long time as you become complacent, if you over congratulate yourself.


So I tend to really not pause and smell the roses, so to speak. Not you guys. The other roses and smell you guys too, though, your friend. And so celebrate has been this this kind of word of the year for many years for me, and when I finished writing the four hour body, I promised myself if it hit number one New York Times that I would or saddle's. Well, I didn't think about the horses specifically, but I said, I'll get something special for myself that relates to Japan because I used to live in Japan.


I have this deep love for Japan and the Japanese people, and I had around the same time, maybe a little bit afterwards, you might remember this. I did a TV show pilot where I went to Japan and attempted to learn horseback archery in one week. And I'm pretty sure you can find it online. If you go on YouTube and search trial by fire, you might be able to find it. It's wild and it's fucking dangerous as hell.


So I did that and I had I had been thinking, maybe I'll get a sword, maybe I'll get some type of armor. And then I thought to myself, actually, because I had this experience, I'd really like to to get either saddle or stirrups of some type. Initially I was just looking for stirrups because I thought they'd be cheaper and just easier to deal with and ended up finding a beautiful wooden carved saddle. So I do have a Japanese saddle, which at the end of the day wasn't that expensive.


But for me it was it was like one of the first times I've ever treated myself to anything. So, yes, aside from all that. And so it has to zoom out back to the the question about investing. I realized when I was journaling. Around my birthday, that thinking about money generally does not make me happy, it makes me more anxious and at the same time I feel like I'm pretty good at because I'm hyper analytical and overanalytical, you might say I'm pretty good at futzing around and optimizing, but that the optimizing at this point in my life, I figured out a lot of things that make me happy.


I figured out a lot of things that don't make me happy and most of the things that make me happy don't require a lot of capital. So this is just a long way of saying I decided that I wanted to make. All of my investing decisions. Or like money decisions by my birthday. It didn't quite work out, so I gave myself a grace period to go to the 1st of August and then to take a six to 12 month break on all of that stuff, meaning like I'm not allowed to consider new deals.


I'm not allowed to look at stocks. I'm not allowed to do any of that stuff. And so I'm glad I'm saying it publicly because I want to make myself accountable. So I'll tell you what I did. It's pretty simple. I've I've thought about. And it's been made. More complex, as you said, because it's Alice in Wonderland in the markets right now. Stuff is happening that just by any kind of rational prediction, pre covid just should not be happening.


There's all sorts of weird stuff. And then I'm not sure what's happening right now. But certainly previously you had the Fed buying high yield bonds like all this stuff that was off the playbook and that there's such a dislocation between the market and the economic reality of millions of people in the United States. I mean, tens of millions for the entire entire. Country, for that matter, that. I I only wanted to put money in places where I felt I had some informational advantage or.


Not just in my head, but like in my heart and gut, just had some conviction that I couldn't quite explain. Does that make sense? Or I'm just like this feels like it makes all the sense in the world and I don't have that very much. So just to be clear to people, I'm not one of those people who uses the word intuition as justification for lots of haphazard shit. That's just not me.


But, you know, you and I, I think is a way, honestly, to kind of distract us from the stress and uncertainty, at least in my case, like talked about quite a bit of investing stuff over the last few months. But we haven't talked in maybe the last, I don't know, two months about this stuff. And, you know, you had some predictions that I think turned out really well. I don't know if if you're open to talking about them, but like peloton, right, where I thought maybe that was already baked in.


So I was like, you know, like, I'm not going to buy a bunch of different things from peloton. I don't have enough room. I do have one bike and I love the bike, but I'm not going to buy a bunch. They've ended up doing really well, at least last I saw. So the question I asked myself was. Which companies, if we're talking about the stock market, right, because I don't think it helps people if we talk about more esoteric stuff like distressed debt or.


You know, icepacks or like weird stuff that most people aren't going have access to, but when I looked at the stock market because my biggest. I would say my most my highest conviction deaths have been in the in the stock market, which, you know, is crazy for me.


I don't play in that sandbox. You do that all the time.


But I, I, I just asked myself, like, this was around.


mid-March and I listen to an interview. With math, I can never say his last name, but interview on investing and his framework for looking at different investments and it it catalyzed a bunch of questions for me. Some were the same questions he had listed out. I put I put this interview in fireboat Friday for the newsletter that I put out.


So I think the interviewer was Pompousness Nickname or Pompano. I think we both talked about this podcast together. Maybe I sent it to you. I don't know. You might have said to me there's a very good chance that you sent it to me. And this is the kind of thing that you would send to me. So everybody listening to your interviews and I begin to wonder. Which companies, technology companies would do extremely well? If covid were protracted.


Or if covid were somehow magically resolved in three months, like which companies would benefit from a short period of dramatic online acceleration? Even if it ended in three months, and especially if it continued for a year, year and a half, and at the same time I was I was looking closely at other countries like China, where I might be getting the numbers wrong, but there's something like 79 percent of all e-commerce and we're 17, something like that.


And. Is a lot of money, a lot of room to grow, and I wasn't trying to do any fancy spreadsheet analysis, and I know people are going to say, well, then you're speculating and there might be some truth to that.


But I only really considered a handful of companies and I ended up deciding this is when I can tell you what the prices were to Amazon at about two thousand and Shopify at about three, 80 per share. And this would have been an very, I want to say, early April. But at some point in April and I decided to initially I was looking at a bunch of different companies. And what I decided for myself was that if I if if I was.


Dividing my bets because I had low conviction, I shouldn't put money into any of those bets, and I'm not saying that's the right approach, but that logic made sense to me.


And I said, all right, I have high conviction around Amazon and Shopify, and if one dominates the other, then perhaps I still break even. Right. But what I noticed was when I went I use Amazon all the time and certainly my spending has increased dramatically after covid. And I remember when Amazon was limited to essential goods and I couldn't get anything else right. I would go to order like coffee filters and it was like four week delivery. And I thought to myself, these companies are fucked, right?


Like if if these people are. Are largely dependent on Amazon. They don't have a an elegant or effective e-commerce plan B, they're going to need to do that immediately. And who's that going to be? And as somebody who isn't it, you know, one of the first advisers to Shopify and then one could argue stupidly, but it made sense to me at the time. I ended up selling shortly after the lockup period when the IPO. So I became an advisor in that eight to 12 employee is now they have whatever, two thousand.


I always kicked myself out because I love those guys and they know what they're doing. They're good guys. The they're very strategically intelligent. They're great at executing. So I always kind of kicking myself. And when they suspended their guidance for twenty twenty and they got pummeled, I just thought to myself, all right, you know, if you really believe that and you're seeing this kind of trend, then this would be the time to like push some serious chips in.


And it's like either put in enough where if it grows like and I kind of in my mind thought, OK, two to three in share price over the next three years, did not expect it to happen in three months. I mean, that's just bonkers, right? Yeah, but those are the only those are the only if I, I don't think I'm omitting anything. But I think those are the two stocks that that I put a lot into.


But it was really thinking about what would do well, no matter what. And of course, there are lots of unknowns. There's there's a key person risk and both of these companies, but they've they've both been really, really smart. And I don't know about you. I think you do this, too. I mean, I base a lot of my investment decisions. This is true for early stage. It's also true for later stage, just based on my personal day to day experiences and how I'm spending money and how my behaviors are changing.


And if I see those same behaviors changing in a dozen of my friends, I'm like, I think this is the thing.


Well, I mean, that's that's the beauty of being an early adopter, which you are and which I am like you're early, right? And if that's true and all of our friends are early adopters and we're all early on something, we should be buying that stock right early. So, yeah.


So I follow the same kind of strategy in that I have two buckets. I have.


So one, we should both said neither of us are registered investment advisors and this is not investment advice. That's just like you personally.


Two things. My sister. What will I tell her? I'll tell her. Don't buy any individual stocks by wealth front, go into wealth and get a bunch of index funds, play it safe, do your thing, set yourself up for retirement.


You're done. So one bucket of my portfolio is like that. It's just like ultra safe, like. Yeah, slow growth, nothing fancy, lots of index funds, blah blah. Then there's the OK, let's take this. And this is different for everyone in terms of what what their allocation would be. But some percentage of your overall net worth and say I'm going to take that and invest in something that I hope will have a blended three X over the next five years.


Right. Or for X, whatever, whatever you're kind of aiming for.


And for me, it's the same bucket. So I was thinking, OK, heading into covid, what are the things that are going to do better, which would be a peloton because, you know, gyms are closed. It's a fantastic product. The churn is effectively zero because when someone else buys a bike that is being sold, used a new subscribers and activated, which is crazy, it's one of the very few products that has like zero churn.


And you have to imagine they're working on and they've hinted at this publicly. They're working on other types of equipment. Right. So it's not just a one trick pony. They already had a treadmill. They pulled it back. So they're revamping it like that's. So it's you know, and it's a like right now, even today, it's a nineteen billion dollar company. Like if you think of this more as a technology subscription play and the future of fitness, I think there's a much larger business to be built here.


And, you know, we were talking about this when it was under 10 billion in market cap. So that's interesting. Amazon, obviously, to your point about e-commerce penetration being relatively low in the United States. This there is no bigger Goliath, there is a bigger giant then this beast of a company and it's like they're just going to continue to crush everything. And so for me, that's not a three X because it's already a one point eight trillion dollar company or whatever it is now like.


But it's you know, there's there's there's still some growth to be had there. And it's like I'm not betting against e-commerce ever. And especially in a corporate world, people are going to be shopping and do more shopping online. So I like that square. I love how they diversified their product offerings. Square Cash is a fantastic app. So it's not about brick and mortar. It's now about, you know, they're doing stock trading. They're doing Bitcoin purchases, which they've made a ton of money off this last quarter.


It's about building out that suite of personal finance tools for the unbanked directly in that cash app, which is I think, you know, I'm so to my point earlier about the three to five banks, you have to look at lower market cap companies. You can't be looking at an Apple or an Amazon for those types of returns over time. So, you know, Square is a sixty seven billion dollar company. There's I believe there's there's more room to for them to grow.


There would like you on Shopify for everything you've said. Tesla, same thing. I think it's expensive right now. But I mean, they're they're continuing to build these massive giga factories. There's a reason why every other week they're like announcing a new gigafactory, like the demand is there and they have a fantastic product. Yeah, I just love it's hard to bet against them. Here's one that's interesting that I haven't told you about, so I don't know if you know this, but Intel is kind of screwed right now.


They've had a really hard time with their chip manufacturing and getting this due process down. The smaller chips AMD has been crushing them. But here's what's interesting. So Apple also moved away from Intel chips and is now doing their own chips. Right. So Apple and AMD, but Apple is not using AMD. Apple is using their own silicon and doing everything. So who makes all these chips? It's a company called TSM out of out of Taiwan that makes all these next generation.


They're like the better version of Intel. So TSM, I think is going to be I mean, they're already at three hundred seventy five billion dollar companies. So they're not tiny. But but TSM is massive. And now also consider this. We're going into the fall. Two things are happening. PlayStation, the new PlayStation, the new Xbox are coming out, both of them AMD architecture, both of them being manufactured by TSM in terms of the chips themselves.


So I'm excited about TSM. And then, you know, I buy some some gold to hedge all of that. And then that's pretty much about it. I oh, you know, Spotify did. I think Spotify is going to be seen as the Netflix of audio and eventually we'll get into video as well. And I think it's going to be there's a reason they haven't launched Joe Rogan on in the app yet. And I think it's because they're revamping my my gut tells me they're revamping the player and they're going to announce video at the same time.


And it's going to be like Spotify is going to like the next Netflix. I think that was so I agree with you and I, I one of the discussed, publicly discussed but under discussed aspects of that deal was the inclusion of video that that his show would be coming off of YouTube and going into Spotify. This new thing, that's the thing that people are like, oh yeah, and they're doing the video thing. But OK, but look at the audio and look at the price of the deal.


And I'm like, no, no, no. Right. That video is super fucking important. That pays attention to that. That's a big, big, big deal. It's huge. Yeah. Yeah. Those guys are smart. They're really smart.


Did they have the Michelle Obama podcast now that's exclusive to Spotify. And like this is funny. I was talking to talk about like speaking of early adopter stuff, I was talking to my wife Daria, and she's like, you know, she just had this conversation last night. She's like, I Google podcasts crashing for me. She goes, you know, I'm just gonna use Spotify because everything's there. And they got some exclusive content now. And I was like, ding, ding, ding, ding.


Like, that's just, you know, it's going to be the default. Yeah, they're smart and they're being very, very aggressive in ways that some of their competition really can't. I mean, they they technically could, but they're just not designed to be aggressive in the way that Spotify is being aggressive. And I'll be super curious to watch this space, obviously, because I play so much of the podcast world. But do you think you'll ever join them?


I don't know, I don't know, I mean, it would have to be an incredibly good offer. I do. I've thought about this quite a bit. I mean, as it relates to different options. Right, because there there have to be some responses or reactions from the big players like Apple, Amazon, Google are all going to. Put a lot of capital and energy into the space because there's there's money to be had, and if anyone's playing with music, they recognize that the margins and advertising dollars are much more interesting.


The economics are much more attractive for podcasts and spoken word. I mean, look at look at audible. Right. What a monster. So dominant. Another reason that I'm bullish, actually, one of the one of the reasons I was really bullish on Amazon. As I said, this actually came from a friend of mine, Mike, who pointed out and he said, what is going to happen with live sports? How are they going to broadcast?


Sports to millions of people who is equipped to handle this right now, and he's like Amazon with Twitch, is equipped to handle this in some fashion, right? Like there are there's infrastructure within Amazon that can be adapted for all sorts of. Gaps in the market or the central thing is that Amazon gets paid no matter what, because like who gets what happens when Google taps out their data centers, what they light up next, they're lighting up Amazon.


Yeah, exactly. Everybody's lighting up from the stuff goes as big.


Exactly. So let me ask you a question about you mentioned a couple of things real quick. So, yes. Confirmed that we are not registered investment advisors.


And I think it's really important for me to. Provide a little more context around my comments where I said I put in, you know, enough chips where a good would be meaningful with, say, Amazon and Shopify. Man, you said Spotify.


I always confuse the shit out of those two I put when I put money into both of those companies, I had roughly 14 times more in cash reserves. So this is really important to keep in mind. In other words, at the time, if I put two percent of my liquid net worth into those stocks, I had something like 30 percent in cash or cash like reserves. So I'm playing it from my perspective, is kind of safe in that respect.


And I do not recommend people stock pick in general. I just think it's a terrible idea and. And I think as if if you're going to if you're going to play in this world like there's no such thing as timing the market and you just never know what's going to happen, like always dollar cost, average your way into any position. So that means like if you have five hundred dollars to invest rather than, say, tomorrow I'm going to go buy some Spotify for five hundred bucks, just call it a day, like maybe divide that into five one hundred dollar investments over the course of five months or three months.


You know, you're not buying at the bottom, you're not buying at the high, but you're getting that blended dollar cost averaging. And a lot of people do that as a as a little many ways to to hedge and because who knows what's going to happen given how insane this market is. The second piece that I think is important to mention is and I think, Tim, you're in this boat, too, but I wouldn't be buying anything that I wouldn't want to hold for the next five plus years.


So it doesn't really that important. I should have said that I was planning on not touching these for three to five years. Yeah. So, I mean, if something drops by 40 percent, will I be crushed by looking at the price? Of course. But is I think long term I'm going to be just fine position. And that's the way you kind of you alluded this to. It has to be something that you're comfortable losing at the same time.


Right. So it should be the life savings, right? Yeah. And we should also say it's like what we're talking about companies that we actually really fucking know. Right. Some level. I mean, not this doesn't mean that it's a different type of knowing than reading every analyst report. And it's just like a deep product knowledge. And the fact that, like, we both like I know dozens and hundreds of companies that use Shopify. Right.


As their e-commerce solution. I use Amazon every day for one thing or another. And I think that's important to keep in mind and question about.


My dog really has to pay, so I'm going to take her out and she's being very good. We can we can we can wrap things up.


We can wrap things up. This is this would be a good way to expedite the answer to my question, which is you said you're buying gold. How do you think about gold versus crypto? Because you've been very involved or knowledgeable of and tracking crypto for for quite a long time. And are you buying ETF for you buying bars in some vault in a foreign country? What are you doing and why? Gold versus crypto? How do you think about them differently?


Well, on the gold side, I like to look at the ETFs that that do warehouse their own gold and actually have full transparency reports about actually owning the bars. And, you know, so I actually buy the iShares Gold Trust, which is IAU. And I like that a couple. That one, they're the biggest one out there is gold, but their expense ratios are higher. I you I believe there was a couple of things I looked into.


It's also like like, like Providence, like where were they keeping their gold as well. And I was keeping in Switzerland and I think one I think the UK as well. And it just I want to make sure where they're storing it is also safe and secure, not a crazy war zone or something else that could potentially go really bad on that front bank of Sierra Leone. Yeah, it's like, you know, so, you know, I just I went with that one.


There's a I'm sure there all the big ones are all probably pretty decent. But in terms of crypto, you know, I have a bunch of cryptocurrency that is not yet tradable that I've invested in over the last few years. That hasn't hit the market yet. So I already see my crypto bucket as being pretty full. I don't think holding Bitcoin or Ethereum is a bad idea. I just wouldn't make it any substantial portion of my overall portfolio. Like, I wouldn't it wouldn't be ten percent or something crazy, you know.


Why do you have less confidence in crypto than gold, if that's a leading question? But I'm just making an assumption here.


And that does not to imply that I am a Super Bowl with crypto, but it seems like in some respects you are more confident in gold as a disaster, hedge versus crypto. Why? Why would that be the case if it's true? Well, I just it is true. And I believe that you have to look at what are the safe asset choices that institutional investors have direct access to.


And there is no easy way, you know, ETFs to buy cryptocurrency. It's just not there yet. And I just it's not to say that people won't turn to crypto on the prices won't five x by the time this video is released. Who knows, but I just I know that the gold is so time tested that I just I feel it's it's it's a it's a prop.. It's a it's a it's a proper hedge. And I'm OK with with with having some portion of my portfolio being gold.


Now, do you view that as a hedge against hyper inflation, hedge against general equity collapse. What do you hedging with gold? I would say a little bit of both, but mostly general general equity collapse, like just something I'm hedging in that I believe if all like let's say we have a vaccine that doesn't work and this turns into a three or four year process instead of a one year and change process, jobs don't come back. That's going to be a pretty brutal place to play.


Right. Like the markets, I think, at that point might start to sour. It's very confusing what they have in today. But like, you know, in that case, I would like a little more something a little more, something that's a little bit more concrete, like having gold as part of a portfolio. But that's just me. Everybody's different. I have some friends that won't touch the stuff. So and then I have some friends actually have bars and they're like actual physical gold bars.


You know, some of those people as well. I do, yeah. You probably have some though. I don't. I don't actually. But I'm just like I'm like if it gets that bad right. Where it's like Mad Max and Marauders, are you going to drive your fucking dune buggy with machine guns down to the 7-Eleven and like take a razor blade and shave off a sliver of gold to get your tampon?


He's like, no, you're not like Tim's on the corner. Like a little little hatchet, like etching on some gold and like trading it for some lentils. If it gets that bad, like you're going to have to use your gold as a weapon because it's any functional value. But a man who knows it's God, it just feeds every like not paranoid, but sort of apocalyptic scenario planning compulsion that I have. So I try to I try to not get wrapped up in it.


So it's so seductive. It's so seductive. Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks for that. Thanks for answering that. Yeah, I, I think people should be prepared for a long haul. Right. Like it's, it's, I think it's very dangerous to try to do any short term trading. And I actually heard an anecdote, I'm not going to mention any names, but one of the one of the best known. Hedge fund investors in the world who has an incredible, incredible track record, I mean, the guy's his compound annual returns over decades are just ludicrous.


And he came in. This is a couple of weeks ago and basically said to his team, he's like, guys, it's too fucking hard, just like take a vacation. We're not going to do it. We're not going to try to deal with this right now. So if that is happening and like one of the top shops in the world, I don't think it's a good idea for. Ninety nine point nine nine nine percent of people to do any short term trading, you're going to get eaten alive either by other traders who do this 24/7 or high frequency folks, or you're just going to get murdered by the market.


Right. As the saying goes, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent. Yeah, it's crazy when you read these read it's separate. It's about these Robinhood traders that are using that app to leverage their positions. And like these kids are going in there and just getting these crazy leveraged positions on certain things. And they're driving up bankrupt companies like Hertz and all these to like new record highs. And you're just like, this is not we shouldn't be playing.


Don't don't play with this stuff. Well, that one kid. That poor kid. I don't know. Did you hear about what happened?


I don't know. There are a lot of kids. Which one are you talking about? This one got so, you know, Robin Hood, the app. It's a fantastic trading app. It's a great piece of software, but it allows people to opt in to options trading and leverage trading like with like three clicks. It's like it's terrifying. Oh, I'm so so these kids go in and this one kid put in. I don't I don't know what the dollar amount was, but he he got on the wrong side of being leveraged and it saw he saw I mean, he didn't know these things were going to expire and he saw like a negative like make him.


No, but something like one hundred thousand dollars negative account.


And he killed himself. Oh my God. All over Robin Hood. And this and just a misunderstanding of what was going to happen in the end and just got so wrapped up to a fire.


Yeah, it is. Honestly, for me, another reason why I'm just hitting pause on all this stuff is that, you know, for me. These days, like the function of investing, and that can be applied to time and energy, but certainly capital is to increase your quality of life, right. So if if if one agrees that that is let's just take that as the primary objective. If you're making investments that cause you to lose sleep and chew your fingernails and to have cortisol pour out your eyeballs, it's a bad investment.


Doesn't matter if it is 10x to 100 xes.


If for a protracted period of time, it's going to have that psychological, psycho emotional effect on it's not a good investment. And, you know, I've learned that the hard way to. Right. I've chased returns certainly in the startup world and all this stuff. And I was like, this fucking sucks. Like, this is not fun. And even if you're good at it doesn't mean you should do it.


Like, watch out to this podcast comes out like Venice and futures are going to like shoot up and let into Venice. That is the future. Venice in is the future. Maui new get after. It's awesome to see you, brother.


And I guess you do miss hanging out. And it's a bummer to not be able to spend time in person. So hopefully we'll be able to do that before too long. Yeah, I agree.


Dude, it's been been too long. It was. I'm actually really glad that you got to visit us just before this whole covid thing happened. You know, it wasn't that many months before. So it was good to see you then. But it's it's been it's it's tough stuff stuck in the house. It's hard with significant others, too, you know, it's like you really realize what your relationships are made of. But you you get you get to see all the stuff.


Yeah, exactly. And all your stuff. It's got no shortage of my stuff. You know, it's a daily project. And anything else you want to say before we wrap up now people can find you anything like that. Yeah. I mean, I'm not on social really these days. I do tweet every once in a while at Kevin Rose. But yeah, I would say one thing I would like to mention is if people want to check out that Xen interview I did on my podcast with Henry, I thought it was quite good.


It was like, you know, and I'm sure, Tim, you get like this to you obviously don't say it publicly, but you record episodes like episodes. It's OK.


You know, it's like, yeah, you know, sometimes you're like every once in a while you get one of those. Yeah. Yeah. So this one I was like, wow. I actually I think I did a pretty decent job with this one, so I was pretty proud of it. So I think people will enjoy this one with Henry Shukman. And you can find that at podcast Kevin Rose Dotcom Suite. And for me, I really love doing the Hugh Jackman interview.


I must have been huge for you. It was amazing. Yeah, I was just a dream come true. I mean, he's been on the wish list forever and he just was so game. So the so if you want to check that out, I think it's just him. I have a list here. I got to listen to it because Jerry, did you hear the Tim interviewed Hugh Jackman. I'm like, oh, I'd love to go out of my mouth.


I was like, he must have been shitting himself. That's like, yeah, I was yeah. I was super nervous.


It was great. It was great. So you asked him about his training and stuff. I did, yeah. Oh, I knew you would have. Yeah. It was like if you could only choose one exercise, what would it be and why and what would the protocol be.


He he gave he really gave the details and got us. Oh that's exciting. That's awesome. So that one I'd recommend people check out, you just search my name and Hugh Jackman or go to the your podcast app of choice. And then also I'd say one thing that I am still doing that I'm still really enjoying is Friday, which is the newsletter that goes out to between one and two million people every Friday. It's free. It's just five bullets of the five coolest things that I've come across that week or that I'm thinking about using experimenting with pondering.


And you can find that at Tim's blog for it's Friday and that's it for me, man. But give a give a hug to the fam for me. I miss you guys. Yeah, I miss you guys too. And yeah. Let your dog go pee. Yeah.


All right. Molly, Molly, thanks for getting us. All right. All right, brother.


I said, hey, guys, this is Tim again. Just a few more things before you take off. Number one, this is five bullet Friday. Do you want to get a short email from me? And would you enjoy getting a short email from me every Friday that provides a little morsel of fun before the weekend? And Pfeifle Black Friday is a very short email where I share the coolest things I've found or that I've been pondering over the week that could include favorite new albums that I've discovered.


It could include gizmos and gadgets and all sorts of weird shit that I've somehow dug up into the world of the esoteric as I do. It could include favorite articles that I have read and that I've shared with my close friends, for instance. And it's very short. It's just a little tiny bite of goodness before you head off for the weekend. So if you want to receive that, check it out. Just go to for our weekly. That's four hour work week, dot com all spelled out and just drop in your email and you will get the very next word and if you sign up, I hope you enjoy it.


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