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In the weeks since we left Russia, Moscow, where we are now in February after interviewing Vladimir Putin, we've watched from the United States as the Biden administration has driven the US ever closer to a nuclear conflict with Russia, the country that possesses the world's largest nuclear arsenal. It has accelerated ever since, and it's reached its apogee so far in the weeks after Trump's election. He's now the president-elect. In that time, just a few weeks ago, the Biden administration, American military personnel launched missiles into mainland Russia and killed at least a dozen Russian soldiers. So we are, unbeknownst to most Americans, in a hot war with Russia, an undeclared war, a war you did not vote for and that most Americans don't want, but it is ongoing.

And because of that war, because of the fact that the US military is killing Russians in Russia right now, we are closer to nuclear war than in any time in history, far closer than we were during the Cuban missile crisis. That would mean the elimination of Russia, the United States, and most of the rest of the world. We felt there must be someone behind the scenes in Washington working to make sure that this conflict doesn't become a nuclear holocaust. But we found out that no, in fact, there is nobody. Tony Blinken, the current secretary of state, cut off all contact between the US and Russian governments.

There is no back channel. There is no conversation. There hasn't been for more than 2 years. That's shocking. Meanwhile, most Americans have no access to any perspective other than that granted to them by NBC News and The New York Times.

They don't know how close we are. They don't know the Russian perspective. We've been trying for over a year to get that perspective out to American news consumers. We've also tried for over a year to get an interview with Zelensky, the president of Ukraine. We've attacked that from a bunch of different angles.

He's spoken to a lot of different people around him, had dinner with them. We've been in talks continuously, and those efforts have been thwarted by the US government. The American embassy in Kiev, which our tax dollars pay for, told the Zelensky government, no, you may not do the interview. You can talk to CNN. You can't talk to us.

So we've been unable to speak to him. So we came back to Moscow yesterday to interview the foreign minister of Russia, Sergei Lavrov, the longest serving foreign minister in the world. He's been a part of this government for 25 years. He's been in the diplomatic corps for over 40, And ask him, where exactly are we? Are we headed toward an unprecedented conflict between Russia and the United States?

Is there any way to peel Russia back from the east, from the sphere of China back into the west? Is that alliance permanent? And does the election of Donald Trump mean an end to this war which is reshaping the world, the US economy, the global economy, and risking the life of every person on this planet? Is that possible?

Minister Lavrov, thank you for doing this. Do you believe the United States and Russia are at war with each other

right now? I wouldn't say so. And, in any case, this is

not what we want. We would like to have normal relations with all our neighbors, of course, but generally with all countries, so not especially with the great country like the United States. President Putin repeatedly expressed his respect for the American people, for the American history, for the American achievements in the world, and we don't see any any reason why Russia and the United States cannot cooperate for the sake of the universe.

But the United States is funding a conflict that you're involved in, of course, and now is allowing attacks on on Russia itself, so that doesn't constitute war?

Well, we officially are not at war. But what is going on, in Ukraine is the some people call it hybrid war. I would call it hybrid war as well, but it is obvious that the Ukrainians would not be able to do what they're doing with long range modern weapons without direct participation of the American servicemen. And this is this is, this is dangerous, No doubt about this. We don't want to aggravate the situation.

But since ATACMS and other long range weapons are being used against mainland Russia, as it were. We are sending signals, and we hope that the last 1, a couple of weeks ago, the signal with the new weapon system called Dareshnik Yes. Was taken seriously. However, we also know that some officials in the Pentagon and in other places, including NATO, they started saying in the last few days something like, well, NATO is a defensive alliance, but sometimes you can strike first because the attack is the best defense. Some others in the STRATCOM, I think, Yukinin is his name, a representative of STRATCOM, he said something which allows for an eventuality of exchange of limited nuclear strikes, And these kind of threats are really worrying, because if they are following the logic, which some westerners have been pronouncing lately, that, well, don't believe that Russia has red lines, they announce the red lines, these red lines are being moved again and again and again.

This is a very serious mistake. That's what I would like to say in response to this question. It is not us who started the war. Putin repeatedly said that we started the operation in order to end the war, which the Kyiv regime was conducting against its own people in the parts of Donbas. And just in his latest statement, the president clearly indicated that we are ready for any eventuality, but we strongly prefer peaceful solution through negotiations on the basis of respecting legitimate security interests of Russia, and on the basis of respecting the people who live in Ukraine, who still live in Ukraine, being Russians, and their basic human rights, language rights, religious rights, have been exterminated by series of legislation passed by the Ukrainian parliament, and they started long before the special military operation.

Since 2017, legislation was passed prohibiting Russian education in Russian, prohibiting Russian media operating in Ukraine, then prohibiting Ukrainian media working in Russian language, and the latest, of course, there were also steps to cancel any cultural events in Russian. Russian books were thrown out of libraries and exterminated, and the latest was the law prohibiting canonic Orthodox Church, Ukrainian Orthodox Church. While and, you know, it's very interesting when people in the West say, we want this conflict to be resolved on the basis of the UN Charter and respect for territorial integrity of Ukraine, Russia must withdraw. The Secretary General of the United Nations says similar things. Recently, his representative repeated that the conflict must be resolved on the basis of international law, UN Charter, general assembly resolutions, while respecting territorial integrity of Ukraine.

It's a misnomer, because if you want to respect the United Nations Charter, you have to respect it in its entirety. And the United Nations Charter, among other things, says that all countries must respect equality, of states and the right of people for self determination. And they also mention the United Nations General Assembly Resolutions, and this is this is clear that what they mean is the series of resolutions which they passed after the beginning of the special military operation, and which demand condemnation of Russia, Russia get out of Ukraine territory in 1991 borders, but there are other United Nations General Assembly resolutions which were not voted, but which were consensual, and among them is a declaration on principles of relations between states on the basis of the charter, and it clearly says, by consensus, everybody must respect territorial integrity of states whose governments respect the right of people for self determination, and because of that, represent the entire population living on a given territory. To argue that the people who came to power through military coup d'etat in February 2014 represented Crimeans, or the citizens of Eastern and Southern Ukraine, is absolutely useless. It is obvious that Crimeans rejected the coup.

They said, leave us alone, we don't want to have anything with you. So did Donbas. Crimeans held a referendum, and they rejoined Russia. Donbas was declared by the Puches who came to power, a terrorist group. They were shelled, attacked by artillery.

The war started, which was stopped in February 2015, and the Minsk agreements were signed, and we were very sincerely interested in closing this drama by seeing Minsk agreements implemented fully. It was sabotaged by the government, which was established after the coup d'etat in Ukraine. There was a demand that they enter into a direct dialog with the people who did not accept the coup. There was a demand that they promote economic relations with that part of Ukraine, and so on and so forth. None of this was done.

The people in Kyiv were saying we would never talk to them directly, and this is in spite of the fact that the demand to talk to them directly was endorsed by the Security Council, and they said they are terrorists, we would be, you know, fighting them, and they would be dying in silence because we are stronger. Had the coup in February 2014, had that not happened, and had the deal which was reached the day before between the then president and the opposition implemented, Ukraine would have stayed 1 piece by now with Crimea in it. It's absolutely clear. They did not deliver on the deal. Instead, they staged the coup.

The deal, by the way, provided for creation of a government of national unity in February 2014, and holding early early elections, which the then president would have lost. Everybody knew that. But they were impatient, and they took the government buildings next morning. They went to this Maidan Square and announced that they created the government of the winners. Compare the government of national unity to prepare for elections, and the government of the winners.

How can the people whom they, in their view, defeated, how can they pretend that they, respect the the authorities in Kyiv? You know, the right for self determination is the international legal basis for decolonization process, which took place in Africa, on the basis of this charter principle, the right for self determination. The people in the colonies, they never treated the colonial powers, colonial masters, as somebody who represent them, as somebody whom they want to see in the structures which govern those lands. By the same token, the people in east and south of Ukraine, people in Donbas and Novorossiya, they don't consider the Zelensky regime as somebody, as something which represents their interests. How can they, when their culture, their language, their traditions, their religion, all this was prohibited.

Yes.

And the last point is that if we speak about the UN Charter, resolutions, international law, the very first article of the UN Charter, which the West never, never recalls in the Ukrainian context, says respect human rights of everybody, irrespective of race, gender, language, or religion. Take any conflict. The United States, UK, Brussels, they would interfere, saying, oh, human rights have been grossly violated. We must restore the human rights in such and such territory. On Ukraine, never, ever they mumbled the words human rights.

Seeing these human rights for the Russian and Russian speaking population being totally exterminated by law. So when people say, let's resolve the conflict on the basis of the charter, yes, but don't forget that the charter is not only about territorial integrity, and territorial integrity must be respected only if the governments are legitimate and if they respect the right of their own people.

I wanna go back to what you said a moment ago about the introduction or the unveiling of the hypersonic weapon system that you said was a signal to the west. What signal exactly? I think many Americans are not even aware that this happened. What message were you sending by showing it to the world?

Well, the message is that you I mean, you, the United States, and the allies of the United States who also provide this long range weapons to the Kyiv regime, they must understand that we would be ready to use any means not to allow them to succeed in what they call strategic defeat of Russia. They fight for keeping their hegemony, over the world on any country, any region, any continent. We fight for our legitimate security interests. They say, for example, 1991 borders. Lense Grem, who visited some time ago, Zelensky, for another another talk, he bluntly, in presence of Zelensky, I think, said that Ukraine is very rich with rare earth metals, and we cannot leave this richness.

To the Russians, we must take it. We fight, so they fight for the regime which is ready to sell or to give to the West all the natural and human resources. We fight for the people who have been living on this lands, whose ancestors were actually developing those lands, building cities, building factories, for centuries and centuries. We care about people, not about natural resources, which somebody in the United States would like would like to to keep, and to have Ukrainians just as as servants sitting on these natural resources. So the message which we wanted to sell by testing in real action, this hypersonic system, is that we will be ready to do anything to defend our legitimate interests.

We hate even to think about war with the United States, which will take, you know, nuclear nuclear character. Our military doctrine says that the most important thing is to avoid a nuclear war. And it was us, by the way, who initiated in January 2022 the message, the joint statement by the leaders of the 5 permanent members of the Security Council, saying that we will do anything to avoid confrontation between us, acknowledging and respecting each other's security interests and concerns. This was our initiative, and security interests of Russia were totally ignored, when they rejected, about the same time, when they rejected the proposal to conclude a treaty on security guarantees for Russia, for Ukraine, in the context of coexistence, and in the context when Ukraine would not be ever a member of NATO or any other military bloc. These security interests of Russia were presented to the West, to NATO and to the United States, in December 2021.

We discussed them several times, including during my meeting with Tony Blinken in Geneva in January, late January 2022, and this was rejected. So we would certainly like to avoid any misunderstanding. And since the people some people in Washington and some people in London, in Brussels seem to be not very capable to understand, we will we will send additional messages if they don't if they don't draw necessary conclusions.

The fact that we're having a conversation about a potential nuclear exchange and it's it's real, is remarkable. Not something I thought I'd ever see. And it raises the question, how much, back channel dialog is there between Russia and the United States? Has there been for the last 2 and a half years? Is there any conversation

ongoing? There are several channels, but mostly on exchange of people who serve terms in Russia and in the United States. There were several swaps. There are also channels which are not advertised or publicized, but basically the Americans send through these channels the same message which they send publicly. You have to stop.

You have to accept the way which will be based on the Ukrainian needs and Ukrainian position. They support this absolutely pointless peace formula by Zelensky, which was additioned recently by Victory Plan. They held several series of meetings, Copenhagen Foreman, Bergenstock, what have you, and they brag, that next year, first half of next year, they will convene another conference, and they will graciously invite Russia at that time, and then Russia would be presented an ultimatum. All this is seriously repeated through various confidential channels. Now we hear something different, including Zelensky's statements that we can stop now at the line of engagement, line of contact.

The Ukrainian government will be admitted to NATO, but NATO guarantees at this stage would cover only the territory controlled by the government, and the rest would be subject to negotiations, but the end result of these negotiations must be total withdrawal of Russia from Russian soil, basically.

Wait. But just if

I just go back leaving Russian people to the nazis regime, which exterminated all the rights of the Russian and Russian speaking citizens of their own country.

If I just go back to the question of nuclear exchange, so there is no mechanism by which the leaders of Russia and the United States can speak to each other to avoid the kind of misunderstanding that could kill 100 of millions of people?

No. No. No. We we we have this channel, which is automatically engaged when ballistic missile launch is taking place. As regards this Arashnik hypersonic ballistic missile, mid range ballistic missile, 30 minutes in advance, this system sent the message to the United States, and they knew that this was the case, and that they don't mistake it for anything, bigger and real dangerous.

What? I think the system sounds very dangerous.

Well, it was, it was a test launch. You know?

Yes. Oh, you're speaking of the test. Okay. But I just wonder how worried you are that considering there doesn't seem to be a lot of conversation between the 2 countries, both sides are speaking about exterminating the other's populations, that this could somehow get out of control in a very short period and no 1 could stop it. It seems incredibly

No. We are not well talking about exterminating anybody's population. We did not start this war. We have been, for years years years, sending warnings that pushing NATO closer and closer to our borders is going to create a problem. Yes.

2007, Putin Putin started to explain, you know, to the people who seemed to be overtaken by the end of history and being dominant, no challenge, and so on and so forth. And, of course, when the coup, took place, the Americans did not hide that they were behind it. There is a conversation between, Victoria Nuland and the then American ambassador in Kyiv when they discuss personalities to be included in the new government after the coup. The figure of $5,000,000,000 spent on Ukraine after independence was mentioned, as the guarantee that everything would be like the Americans want. So we don't have any any intention to exterminate Ukrainian people.

They are, brothers and sisters, to the to the Russian people.

How many have died so far, do you think, on both sides?

It is not disclosed by Ukrainians. Zelensky was saying that it is much less than 80,000 persons on on Ukrainian side, but there is 1 very, very reliable figure in Palestine during 1 year, after the Israelis started their operation in response to this terrorist attack, which we condemned. And this operation, of course, acquired the proportion of collective punishment, which is against international humanitarian law as well. So during 1 year, after the operation started in Palestine, the number of civilians, Palestinian civilians, killed is estimated 45,000. This is almost twice as many as the number of civilians on both sides of Ukrainian conflict who died during 10 years after the coup, 1 year 10 years.

So it is a tragedy in Ukraine, it's a disaster in Palestine, but we never, ever had as our goal killing people, and the Ukrainian regime did. The head of the office of Zelenskyy, once said that we will make sure that cities like Kharkiv and Nikolaev will forget what Russian means at all. Another guy in his office stated that Ukrainians must exterminate Russians through law, or if necessary, physically. The Ukrainian former ambassador to Kazakhstan, forgot his name, became famous when giving an interview and looking into the camera being recorded and broadcast. He said, our main task is to kill as many Russians as we can, so that our kids have less things to do.

And the statements like these are all over the vocabulary of the regime.

How many Russians in Russia have been killed since February of 2022?

It's it's not for me to disclose this information. In the time of military operations, special rules exist, and our Ministry of Defense follows these rules. But the the very interesting fact that when Zelensky was playing not in international arena, but at his comedy club or whatever it is called, he was there are videos of from from that period when he was bluntly defending the Russian language. He was saying, what what is wrong with Russian language? I speak Russian.

Russians are our neighbors. Russian is our 1 of 1 of our languages, and get lost, he said, to those who wanted to, sorry, to attack the Russian language and Russian culture. When he became president, he changed very fast, and before the military operations, in September 2021, he was interviewed, and at that time, he was conducting war against Donbas, in violation of the Minsk agreements, and the interviewer asked him what he thought about the people on the other side of the line of contact, and he answered very thoughtfully, you know, there are people and there are species, and if you, living in Ukraine, feel associated with the Russian culture, my advice to you, for the sake of your kids, for the sake of your grandkids, get out to Russia. And if if, this guy wants to bring Russians and people of Russian, culture, back, under his territorial integrity, I mean, it's it's, it shows that he is not adequate.

So what are the terms under which Russia would cease hostilities? Like, what what are what are you asking for?

10 years ago, in February 2014, we were asking only for the deal between the president and the opposition, to have government of national unions yet to hold early elections, to be implemented. The deal was signed, and we were asking for the implementation of this deal. They were, absolutely impatient and aggressive, and they were, of course, pushed, I have no slightest doubt, by the Americans, because if Victoria Noland and the US ambassador agreed the composition of the government, why wait for 5 weeks for 5 months to hold early elections? The next time we were in favor of something was when the Minsk agreements were signed.

Yes.

I was there, the negotiations lasted for 17 hours, and, the deal was well, Crimea was lost by then, by that time, because of referendum, and nobody, including, my colleague, John Kerry, meeting with us, nobody in the west was raising the issue of Crimea. Everybody was concentrated on Donbas. And the Minsk agreements provided for the territorial integrity of Ukraine, minus Crimea, this was not even raised, and a special status for a very tiny part of Donbas, not for the entire Donbas, not for for Novorossiya at all. Part of Donbas, under these Minsk agreements, endorsed by the Security Council, should have the right to speak Russian language, to teach Russian language, to study in Russian, to have local law enforcement, like in the in the states of US, to be consulted when judges and prosecutors are appointed by the central authority, and to have some facilitated economic, connections with neighboring regions of Russia. That's it.

Something which President Macron promised to give to Corsica and still is considering how how to do this. And when these agreements were sabotaged all along by, first, by Parachenko, and then by Zelensky. Both of them, by the way, came to a presidency, running on the on the promise of peace, and both of them lied. So when these Minsk agreements were sabotaged to the extent that we we saw the attempts to take this tiny part of Donbas by force, and we, as Putin explained, we have, at that time, we suggested these security arrangements to NATO and the United States, which was rejected. And when the plan b, was launched by Ukraine and its sponsors, trying to take this part of Donbas by force, it was then that we that we launched this special military operation.

Had they implemented the Minsk agreements, Ukraine would be 1 piece minus Crimea. But even then, when Ukrainians, after we started the operation, suggested to negotiate, we agreed. There were several rounds in Belarus, and 1 later they moved to Istanbul, and in Istanbul, a Ukrainian delegation put a paper on the table saying, Those are the principles on which we are ready to agree, and we accepted those principles. The Minsk principles? No, no, no, the Istanbul principles.

It was April 22, which was no NATO, but security guarantees to Ukraine collectively provided with the participation of Russia, and these security guarantees would not cover Crimea or the east of Ukraine. It was their proposal, and it was initialed. And the head of the Ukrainian delegation in Istanbul, who is now the chair of the Zelensky faction in the parliament, he recently, a few months ago, in an interview, he confirmed that this was the case, and on the basis of these principles, we were ready to draft a treaty. But then, this gentleman who headed the Ukrainian delegation in Istanbul, he said that Boris Boris Johnson visited and told them to continue to fight. Then there was,

But Boris Johnson, on behalf of

He said no, but, you know, the the guy who who who who who initialed the paper, he said it was Boris Johnson. Other other people say it was Putin who ruined the deal because, of the massacre in Bucha. But massacre in Bucha is something which I they don't they never mentioned anymore, massacre in Bucha. I do, and we do. In a sense, they are on the on the defensive.

Several times in the United Nations Security Council, sitting at the table with Antonio Guterres, I 2 years ago and last year, or and last year and this year, the general assembly, I raised the issue of Bucha and said, guys, it is strange that you are silent about Bucha because you were very vocal. When BBC team found itself, on the street where the bodies were located. And can we, I inquired, can we get the names of the persons whose bodies were, broadcast by BBC? Total silence. I addressed Antonio Guterres personally in the presence of the Security Council members.

He did not respond. Then at my press conference in New York, after the end of the General Assembly last September, I asked all the correspondents, guys, you are journalists. Maybe you're not an investigative journalist, but journalists normally are interested to get the truth. And the Bucha thing, which was played all over the, media outlets condemning Russia, is not of any interest to anyone, politicians, UN officials, and now even journalists. I asked them when I talked to them in September, please, as a professional as professional people, try to get the names of those who whose bodies were shown in Bucha.

No answer. Just like we don't have any answer to the question, where is the results of medical analysis of Alexei Navalny, who died recently, but who was treated in Germany in the fall of 2020. When he fell dead, on a plane over Russia, the plane landed. He was treated by the Russian doctors in Siberia, then the Germans wanted to take him. We immediately allowed the plane to come.

They took him in less than 24 hours. He was he was in Germany. And then the Germans continued to say that we poisoned him. And we asked them, can you and they announced that the analysis confirmed that he was poisoned. We asked for the for the test results to be given to us.

They said, no. We give it to the organization on chemical weapons. We went to this organization. We are members. And we said, can you show it to us?

Because this is our citizen. We are accused of having poisoned him. They said, the Germans told us not to give it to you, because they found nothing in the civilian hospital. And the announcement that he was poisoned was made after the he was treated in a military hospital, Bundeswehr hospital. So, it seems that this this secret is not going

So how did Navalny die?

Well, he died, in a serving the term in Russia. But he during as far as it was reported, every now and then, he felt not not well, which was another reason why we continued to ask the Germans, can you show us the results which you found? Because we did not find what they found. And what they did to him, I don't know.

What the Germans did to him?

Yeah, because they don't explain to anybody, including us. Or maybe they explain to the Americans, maybe this is credible, but they never told us how they treated him, what they found, and what methods they were using.

How do you think he died?

I am not a doctor. But for anybody to guess, even for the doctors to try to guess, they need to have information. And if the person was taken to Germany to be treated after he had been poisoned, the results of the tests cannot be secret. We still cannot get anything credible on the fate of Sergei Skripal and his and his daughter. The information is not provided to us.

He is our citizen, she is our citizen, and we have all the have all the rights and the conventions which the UK is party to, to get information.

Why do you think so many threads, but why do you think that Boris Johnson, former prime minister of the UK, would have stopped the peace process in Istanbul? On whose behalf was he doing that?

Met with him a couple of times, and I wouldn't be surprised, if if he was motivated by some immediate desire or by some long term strategy. He is not very predictable.

Okay. Do you think he was acting on behalf of the US government, on behalf of the Biden administration? He was doing this independently? I mean, on

I I don't know. I don't know, and I wouldn't guess. The fact that the Americans and the Brits are leading in this, in this, quote unquote, situation is is obvious. Now it is becoming also clear that there is a fatigue, in some capitals, and there are talks every now and then that the Americans would like, to leave it with the Europeans and to concentrate on something more important, I wouldn't guess. We would be judging by specific steps.

It's obvious, though, that the Biden administration would like to leave a legacy to the Trump administration as bad as as they can. Yes. And similar to to what Obama did to Trump during his fiscal, when late December 2016, Obama expelled Russian diplomats, just very late December. 120 persons with family members did it on purpose, demanded them only leave on the day when there was no direct flight from Washington. So they had to move to New York by busses with all their luggage with children and so on and so forth.

And, at the same time, Obama announced the arrest of pieces of diplomatic property of Russia. And, it is we still never were able to come and see what what is the state of this Russian property. They never allowed us to come and see, though, under all convention. They just say that these these pieces we don't consider as being covered by diplomatic immunity, which is a unilateral decision never substantiated by any international court.

So you believe the Biden administration is doing something similar again to the incoming Trump administration?

Because because that episode with the expulsion and the seizure of property certainly did not create the promising ground for beginning of our relations with the Trump administration. So I think they're doing the same.

But this time, president Trump was elected on the explicit promise to bring an end to the war in Ukraine. So, I mean, he said that in appearance after appearance. So given that, there is hope for a resolution, it sounds like. What were are the terms to which you'd agree?

Well, the terms, I basically alluded to them when President Putin spoke in this ministry on 14th June, he once again reiterated that we were ready to negotiate on the basis of the principles which were agreed in Istanbul and rejected by Boris Johnson, according to the statement of the head of the Ukrainian delegation. The key principle is no non bloc status of Ukraine, and we would be ready to be part of the group of countries who would provide collective security guarantees to Ukraine.

No NATO.

No NATO, absolutely no military bases, no military exercises on the Ukrainian soil with participation of foreign foreign troops. And this is something which he reiterated. But of course, he said, it was April 2022. Now, some time has passed, and the realities on the ground would have to be taken into account and accepted. The realities on the ground are not only the line of contact, but also the changes in the Russian constitution after a referendum was held in Donetsk, Lugansk republics, and Kherson, and Zaporozhye regions.

Yes.

And they are now part of the Russian Federation, according to the constitution, and this is a reality. And, of course, we cannot we cannot tolerate a deal which would keep the legislation, which I quoted, prohibiting Russian language, Russian media, Russian culture, Ukrainian Orthodox Church, because it is a violation of the obligations of Ukraine under the UN Charter, and somebody must be done about it. And the fact that the West, since this Russophobic legislative, offensive started in 2017, since the West was totally silent, and it is silent until now, of course, we would have to pay attention to this in a very special way.

Would dropping sanctions against Russia be a condition? I would say

probably many people in Russia would would would like to make it a condition, but the more we live on the sanctions, the more we understand that it is better to rely on yourself and to develop mechanisms, to develop platforms for cooperation with normal, countries who are not unfriendly to you, and not and don't mix economic interests and policies, and especially politics. And we learned a lot after the sanctions started. Sanctions started under under Obama. They continued in a very big way under the first term of Trump, and these sanctions under the Biden administration are absolutely unprecedented, But what doesn't kill you may makes you stronger, you know.

And Well, but also just drives

They would be never a killer, so they are making us stronger.

And driving Russia east. And so the vision, that I think sane policymakers in Washington had 20 years ago is why not bring Russia into a western bloc sort of as a balance against the rising east? And it but it doesn't seem like that do you think that's still possible?

I don't think so. Recently, Putin was, speaking at, Vaudeville club, politicologists and experts, he said we would never be back at the situation of early 2022. That's when he realized for himself, apparently, not only he, but he spoke publicly about this, that all attempts to be on equal terms with the West have failed. It started after the demise of the Soviet Union. There was euphoria.

We are now part of the liberal world, the democratic world, end of history, but very soon, it became clear to most of the Russians that in the nineties, we were treated as, at best, as junior partner. Maybe not even as a partner, but as a place where the West can organize things like it wants, striking deals with oligarchs, buying resources and assets. And then, probably, the Americans decided that Russia is in their pocket. Boris Yeltsin, Bill Clinton, bodies laughing, joking. But even at the end of Yeltsin's term, he started to contemplate that this was not something she wanted for Russia.

And I think this was very obvious when he appointed Putin prime minister and then left earlier, and blessed Putin as his successor for the elections which were coming and which Putin won. But when Putin became president, he was very much open to cooperation with the West, and he mentions about this quite quite regularly when he speaks, with interviewers or at some international events. I was present when he met with George Bush junior, with Obama. Well, after the meeting of NATO in Bucharest, which was accompanied which was followed by NATO Russian meeting, summit meeting in 2008, when they announced that Georgia and Ukraine will be in NATO, and then they tried to sell it. We asked why.

There was lunch, and Putin asked what was the reason for this.

Good question.

And they said, you know, this is something which is not obligatory. How come? Well, you know, to start the process of joining NATO, you need a formal invitation, And this is a slogan. Ukraine and Georgia will be in NATO. But this slogan, you know, became obsession for some people in Tbilisi first, when Sakashviro lost his senses and started the war against his own people, under the protection of OSCE mission, with the Russian peacekeepers on the ground, and the fact that he launched this was confirmed by the European Union investigation, which they launched and which concluded that he gave the order to start.

And for Ukrainians, it took a bit longer, and they were cultivating this pro Western mood. Well, pro Western is not bad, basically. Proveston is also not bad. What is bad is that you tell people eitheror. Either you go with me, or you're my enemy.

What happened before the coup in Ukraine? In 2013, the president of Ukraine, it was mister Yanukovych, negotiated with the European Union some association agreement, which would nullify tariffs on most of the Ukrainian goods to the European Union and the other way around. And at some point, when he was meeting with with Russian counterparts, we told him, you have already Ukraine had was part of the free trade area of the Commonwealth of Independent States. No tariffs for everybody. And we, Russia, negotiated agreement with the World Trade Organization for some 15, 17 years, mostly because we bargained with the European Union, and we achieved some protection for many of our sectors, agriculture, some others, and we explained to the Ukrainians that, if you go 0 in your trade with European Union, we would have to protect our customs border with you, with Ukraine.

Otherwise, the 0 tariff European goods would flood and would be hurting our industries, which we tried to protect and agreed for some protection. Then we suggested to the European Union, guys, Ukraine is our common neighbor. You want to have better trade with Ukraine. We want the same. Ukraine wants to have markets both in Europe and in Russia.

Why don't we see the 3 of us and discuss it like grown ups? The head of the European Commission Commission was the Portuguese, Barroso was his name, and he responded, you know, it's none none of your business what we do with Ukraine. We, for example, we, the European Union, we don't ask you to discuss with us your trade with China. Absolutely arrogant answer. And then, the president of Ukraine, Yanukovych, he convinced his experts, and the experts said, yes, it would be not very good if we have opened the border with the European Union, but the customs border with Russia would be closed, and they would be checking, you know, what what is coming, so that their their Russian market is not is not affected.

And he announced in November 2013 that he cannot sign the deal immediately, and he asked the European Union to postpone it for next year, until next year. That was the trigger for Maidan, which was immediately thrown up and ended by the coup. My point is that this eitheror, actually, the first coup took place in 2004, when after second round of elections, the same mister Yanukovych won presidency, the west raised hell, and put pressure on the constitutional court of Ukraine to rule that there must be a 3rd round. And the constitution of Ukraine says 2 rounds, and the constitutional court, under the pressure of the West, violated the constitution for the first time then. And pro Western, candidate was was chosen.

At that time, when all this was taking place and boiling, the European leaders were publicly saying, Ukrainian people must decide. Are they with us or with Russia? This either or is is still very much, very much

But it is the way that big countries behave. I mean, there are certain orbits, and now it's BRICS versus NATO US versus China. And it sounds like you're saying the Russian Chinese alliance is permanent.

Well, we are neighbors. We are neighbors, and geography is very important.

But you're also neighbors with Western Europe, when you're part of it, in effect.

Well, through Ukraine, and the Western Europe wants to come to our borders. And there were plans that, you know, were discussed almost openly, to put British naval bases on the sea of Azov. Crimea was eyed, you know, dreaming about creating NATO base in Crimea, and so on and so forth. We want look, we we have been very friendly with Finland, for example. Overnight, the Finns came back to early years of preparation for World War 2, when they were best allies of Hitler.

And all this all this neutrality, all this friendship, going to sauna together, playing hockey together, all this disappeared overnight. So maybe this was deep in their hearts, and the neutrality was burdening them, and niceties were burdening for them. I don't know.

That that's totally possible. Can you negotiate with Zelensky? You've pointed out that he has exceeded his term. He's not, you know, democratically elected president of Ukraine anymore. So do you consider him a suitable partner for negotiations?

Putin addressed this issue as well many times. In September 2022, during the 1st year of the special operation, Zelensky, in his conviction that he would be dictating the terms of the situation also to the west, he signed a decree prohibiting any negotiations, with Putin's government. And when, during public events after that episode, Putin is asked why Russia is not ready for negotiations, he said, don't turn it upside down. We are ready for negotiations, provided it will be based on the, balance of interest tomorrow. But Zelensky signed this decree prohibiting negotiations, and for starters, why don't you tell him to cancel it publicly?

This will be a signal that he wants negotiations. Instead, Zelensky invented his peace formula. Later, it was auditioned by Victory Plan, and they keep saying, we know what they say when they meet with European Union ambassadors and in other formats, they say no deal unless the deal is on our terms. And they I I mentioned to you that they they are planning now the 2nd summit, on the basis of this peace formula. And they they don't shy away from saying, we will invite Russia to to to put in front of it the deal which we agreed already with the West.

And when when our Western colleagues sometimes say nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine, in effect, this implies that anything about Russia without Russia, because they they discuss what kind of conditions we must accept. By the way, recently, they already violate, tacitly, the the concept, nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine. There are passes. There are messages. They know our position.

We are not playing a double game. What Putin announced is the goal of our operation. It's fair, it's fully in line with the United Nations Charter. First of all, the rights, language rights, minority rights, national minority rights, religious rights, and it's fully in line with OSCE principle. There is an organization for security and cooperation in Europe, which is still alive.

And, the summit of this organization, well, several summits of this organization, clearly stated that security must be indivisible, that nobody should expand his security at the expense of security of others, and that, most important, no organization in your Atlantic space shall claim dominance. This was, last time it was confirmed by OSC, 2010. And NATO was doing exactly the opposite.

Yes.

So we have we have legitimacy, you know, in our position. No NATO on our doorsteps because OSC, you know, agreed that this should not be the case if if it hurts us, and please restore the rights of Russians.

Who do you think has been making foreign policy decisions in the United States? This is a question. In the United States, who's

making foreign policy decisions? Yes. I haven't seen Toni Blinken for for years. 2 years ago, I think, at the g 20 summit, was it in Rome or somewhere? In the margins in the margins, his his assistant I was representing Putin, and his assistant came up to me during a meeting and said that Tony wants to talk just for 10 minutes.

I left the room. We shook hands, and he said something about the need to de escalate and so on and so forth. I hope he is not going to be angry with me, since I am disclosing this. But we were meeting in front of many people present in the room. And I said, we don't want to escalate.

You want to inflict strategic defeat upon Russia. He said, no, no, no, no. It is not it is not strategic defeat, globally. It is only in Ukraine.

You've not spoken to him since? No. Have you spoken to any in officials in the Biden administration since then?

I don't want to ruin their career.

But have you had meaningful conversations? No. No.

Not at all. No. I when when, you know, when I met, in in international events, 1 or another person whom I know, an American, I mean. Yeah. Some of them say hello, some of them exchange few words, but I never impose myself

because But but nothing meaningful behind the scenes.

It's becoming contagious, you know, when they see when somebody sees an American talking to me or a European talking to me. Europeans are running away when they see me during the last g 20 meeting. It was ridiculous. Grown up people, mature people, they behave like like kids. So childish.

Unbelievable.

So you said that when in 2016 in December, the Obama administration left a bunch of bombs, basically, for the incoming Trump administration. In the last month since the election, you have all sorts of things going on politically in bordering states in this region, that, you know, in Georgia and Belarus, in Romania, and then, of course, most dramatically in Syria, you have turmoil. Does this seem like part of an effort by the United States to make the resolution more difficult?

There is nothing new, frankly, because the US historically, in foreign policy, was motivated by making some trouble and then to see if they can fish in the muddy water. Iraqi aggression, Libyan adventure, ruining the state, basically, fleeing from Afghanistan, now trying to get back through the back door, using the United Nations, you know, to organize some event where the US can be present, in spite of the fact that they left Afghanistan in very bad shape and arrested money. Don't want to give it back. I think this is if you if you analyze the American foreign policy steps, adventures, most of them, is the right word, that's that's the the pattern pattern. They create some trouble, and then they see how to use it.

In Georgia, these OSC monitors elections. When it used to monitor elections, in Russia, they would always be very negative. And on other countries as well, Belarus, Kazakhstan. This time, in Georgia, the monitoring mission of OSC presented a positive report, and it is being ignored. So when when you need endorsement of the procedures, You do it when you like the results of the election.

If you don't like the results of elections, you ignore it. It's like when the United States and other Western countries recognized unilateral declaration of independence of Kosovo. They said, this is the self determination being implemented. When a few years later and there was no referendum in Kosovo, unilateral declaration of independence. By the way, after that, the Serbs approached International Court of Justice, which ruled that, well, normally, they are not very specific, you know, in their in their judgment, but they ruled that, unilateral or rather, when part of a territory declares independence, it is not necessarily to be agreed with the central authorities.

And when a few years later, the Crimeans were holding referenda with invitation of many international observers, not from international organizations, but from parliamentarians in Europe, in Asia, in post Soviet space, they said, no, we cannot accept this because this is violation of territorial integrity. Europe, you know, you pick and choose. The UN charter is not a menu. You have to respect it in in all its entirety.

So what who's paying the rebels who've taken parts of Aleppo? Is the Assad government in danger of falling? What is happening exactly in your view in Syria?

Well, we had a deal, when this crisis started, and we are organized the Astana process, of Russia, Turkey, and Iran. We meet regularly, and another meeting is being planned before the end of the year or early next year to discuss the situation on the ground. And the rules of the game is to help Syrians to come to terms with each other and to prevent separatist trends from from, you know, getting strong. That's what the Americans are doing in the east of Syria when they groom some Kurdish separatists using the profits from oil and grain, and salt, which they the resources which they occupy. This Astana format is a useful combination of players, if you wish, and we are very much concerned.

After this happened with Alep Point surroundings, I had a conversation with the Turkish minister of foreign affairs and with Iranian colleague. We agreed to try to meet this week.

Did you see it coming?

Hopefully in Doha, in the margins of this international conference. We would like to discuss the need to come back to strict implementation of the deals on Idlib area, because Idlib, the escalation zone, was the place from where the terrorists moved to to to take Aleppo, and the arrangements reached in 2019 2020, provided for our Turkish friends to control the situation in the Idlib de escalation zone and to separate the Hayatahirasham from Manusra from the opposition, which is non terrorist and which cooperated with Turkey. Apparently, it is not yet it is not yet there. And another deal was the opening of, an M5 route from Damascus to Aleppo, which is also now taken completely by the terrorists. So we, as ministers of foreign affairs, would discuss the situation, hopefully, this coming Friday, and the military of all 3 countries, and the security people are in contact with each other.

But the Islamist groups, the terrorists you just described, who is backing them?

Well, we have some some information, and we would like to discuss with all our partners in this and this process the way to cut the channels of financing and arming them, the information which is being floated, and it's in the public domain, mentions the Americans, the Brits, among others. Some people say that Israel is interested in in, you know, making this situation aggravate so that Gaza is not under very close scrutiny. It's a complicated game. Many, many actors are involved, and I hope that the context which we are planning for this week will help stabilize the situation.

What do you think of Donald Trump?

I met him several times, when he was having meetings with Putin and when he received me twice, I think, in the Oval Office when I was visiting for bilateral talks. Well, I think he's a very strong person, a person who wants results, who doesn't like procrastination on on anything. And this is this is my impression. He's very friendly in, you know, discussions. And but this does not mean that he's pro Russian, as some people tried to present him.

The amount of sanctions we received under the Trump administration was very, very, very big. And we respect any any choice which is made by the people when they vote, and we respect the choice of American people, and we are open, as Putin said, we are open to, contacts with we have been open all all all along, with the current administration. And we hope that when Biden, when Donald Trump, is inaugurated, we will understand What the ball, as Putin said, is on this side. We never severed our contacts, our ties, in the economy, trade, on security, on anything.

And my final question is, how sincerely worried are you about an escalation and conflict between Russia and the United States knowing what you do?

Well, we started with this question, more or less. We

It seems the central question.

Yes. And the Europeans say that, it's not they whisper whisper to each other that it is not for Zelensky to dictate the terms of the deal, it's for the US and Russia. I don't think we should be presenting our relations as, you know, 2 guys decide for everybody. Not at all. It is not it is not our style.

We prefer the manners, which dominate in BRICS, in Shanghai Cooperation Organization, where the UN Charter Principle of sovereign equality of states is really embodied. The US is not used to respect sovereign equality of states. The United States, you know, when they say we cannot allow Russia to win on Ukraine because this would undermine our rules based world order, and the rules based world order is American domination. Now, by the way, NATO, at least under Biden administration, is eyeing the entire Eurasian continent. Indian Pacific strategies, South China Sea, East China Sea, is already on NATO agenda.

NATO is moving infrastructure there. AUCUS, building, quartered, Indo Pacific 4, they call it. Japan, Australia, New Zealand, South Korea. US, South Korea, and Japan are building military alliance with some nuclear components. So and the Stoltenberg, the former secretary general of NATO, said, last year after the summit, which, he said, your Atlantic security is indivisible from Indo Pacific security.

When he was asked, does it mean that you go beyond territorial defense? No, no, no. It doesn't go beyond territorial defense, but to defend our territory, we need to be present there. This element of preemption is more and more present. But with the United States, we don't want war with anybody.

And as I said, nuclear 5 nuclear states declared at the top level in January 2022 that we don't want confrontation with each other and that we shall respect each other's security interests and concerns. And it also stated nuclear war is nuclear war can never be won, and therefore nuclear war is not possible. And the same was reiterated bilaterally between Russia and the United States, Putin, Biden, when they met in 21, in Geneva In June, basically, they reproduced the statement by Reagan and Gorbachev of 1987, I think. No nuclear war. And this is absolutely in our vital interest, and I hope that this is also in the vital interest of the United States.

I say so because, some time ago, mister Kirby, who is White House Communications coordinator or whatever, he was asking questions, answering questions, and about escalation, and about possibility of nuclear weapons being employed. And he said, oh, no. No. We don't want escalation because then if there is some nuclear element, then our European allies would suffer. So even mentally, he excludes that the United States can suffer.

And this is something which which makes the situation a bit risky. It might if if this mentality prevails, then some reckless steps could be taken, and this is bad.

So what I think you're saying is American policymakers imagine there could be a nuclear exchange that doesn't directly affect the United States, and you're saying that's not true?

That's that's what I said. Yes. No. But, you know, professionals, in deterrence, nuclear deterrence policy, they know very well that it's a very dangerous game. And to speak about limited exchange of nuclear strikes, is an invitation to disaster, which we don't want to happen.

Mister Lavrov, thank you very much.

Thank you.

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