You're an actor, you're looking for work, you're agent, or somebody calls you and says, We'd like you to play Jesus. What's that like?

It was an answered prayer. The person who made that call was a friend and a colleague by that point, a guy by the name of Dallas Jenkins, who created The Chosen. I had played Jesus for him for his church's Good Friday service in these little vignettes three times over the course of four years between 2014 and 2017.

Just literally in a church.

In a church. We'd go and shoot out on a farm, these vignettes, whatever built sets into this. His church has a little studio, but mostly on location. We would film these little films that would be in the spirit of Good Friday or illustrate a particular gospel passage or scripture scene, and that was in line with the theme of the service for that year. Yeah. The first time I played Jesus in one of those short films was the Crucifixion. I was in it for five minutes. The film itself, it's called The Two Thiefs. You can actually find it, I think, on Amazon still. It was a what-if story about the two slaves crucified on either side of Christ. Who were they? How did they get there? How do you go in one of Gospels in one paragraph from he was being mocked and reviled, even by the thief next to him, to all of a sudden, the penitent thief, as he's referred to, gives his life basically to Jesus in that moment and says, Lord, remember me when you come into your kingdom and Jesus says, Truly today, you will be with me in paradise. And he basically...

It's like the first confession on the cross, and he grants him access to the kingdom. And so how does that... How do you go from being one of the mockers, revilers to this sudden conversion on the cross. Dallas tries to answer that question in the course of this 25-minute film. I actually read for the Penitent Thief because he's got this this fantastic narrative arc. I thought I'd had a great audition. It was in LA at the time. I knew it was an opportunity to get paid a nominal stipend for some work in another city, in this case, suburban Chicago. I thought, Man, I would audition for this short film. I don't care if it's for a church. It's a great story. It's Cribs. It's Great. So I go and I audition. I had a great audition. I'm like, I think I nailed it. A couple of days later, I get a call back to come back in, but this time to read for Jesus. I thought to myself, Man, I didn't get the first role. Then I looked again at the script and like, Jesus got like five lines in the whole thing. But I had happened to have played Jesus six months prior for another completely independent project up in Washington State at a studio for this Catholic company called St.

Luke Productions about this saint in the early 20th century named St. Faustina, who was considered a mystic. She had these visions. She wrote an entire diary that was dictated to her by Christ himself in these visions. I played Jesus in the vision aspect of that story for this traveling one-woman show where it was an actress playing the saint, A screen behind her, a couple of rudimentary set pieces. Then all of the other characters in the show, in the play, including these visions of Jesus, was projected on a screen that she would choreographically time out her scenes with for 90 minutes. Fast forward, six months later, I get to audition for the Two Thiefs. I didn't get the Pendent and Thief. I go and I audition for Jesus because I'm like, You know what? I enjoyed playing Jesus six months to go, this would be cool. If I got anything, it'd be cool because I wasn't working steadily or consistently. The way Dallas tells the story about 10 seconds into the audition, he's like, That's Jesus. That's my Jesus for this show. And so we did that film, and it was screened. He brought me back to view it like a month later at the Good Friday Service with his church, about seven services.

It was like 15,000 people saw this thing in a matter of a day and a half. It was remarkably well received. It was so beautiful. It was essentially the foundational bones of the concept of the chosen, which is this Ignatian spirituality, this Ignatian insight into the Gospels, which is basically you put yourself in the Gospels, you ask yourself a series of questions, and that's how you meditate on the Gospels through this form of spirituality. This process of filmmaking was a living example of that on cellular or digital cellular. We did it again the following year for a different end of scene. Then we skipped the year, and then in 2017, in the spring of 2017, I did one more film with him for his church. Then it was in probably the summer of 2018 where he called me and said, Hey, you want to put the sales back on. I think we're going to do this four episodes of a crowdfunded TV show. Probably not going to go anywhere, but it'd be some consistent work. I jumped at the chance. I thought, okay, I had now played Jesus for Him a few times. I was getting really comfortable with the role.

I was also pulled in during that time between 2016 and 2019. I started doing these passion plays, being involved in these passion plays that a friend of mine was directing. Then I helped co-direct, and then I co-wrote a version of the passion that we would put on for our church. For whatever reason, God God was putting me in these situations, in these stories about Jesus, so often in such a short, I mean, a relatively short period of time, in a few years, I'd played Jesus five, six, seven times and I started to think like, well, there must be something to this. I don't know what it is yet. Then when I got the call for the chosen, the penny dropped. It was like, Oh, all of that was preparation for this.

It became much more than anyone thought it would be.

I would say so. Yes. The four episodes that probably wouldn't go anywhere became eight episodes of a first season of the show that was crowdfunded by selling shares to fund the show, and then Released in the fall of 2019, rereleased for free because we were charging, I think, 15 bucks for the season, the entire eight episodes on DVD and streaming. Then when the pandemic The Chosen, the folks of The Chosen said, We want to do something to ease people's burdens and give the show away for free. It exploded after that, like beyond anyone's imagination. Since then, it's always been free on the app, the chosen app. Then now we just did a deal with Amazon. Amazon is going to be our exclusive window for the streaming of the show after its initial theatrical run, which for season 5 will be March 28th. It'll be in theaters for about a month. Then it'll go to Amazon for 90 days exclusively, and then it'll go to the app where it will remain free.

I mean, it's turned into the biggest thing in that genre, maybe ever.

Yeah. Nobody really releases figures in streaming for viewership and any of that data, but We do because we're like, we don't care. We want to tell people. It's been estimated right now that about 280 million people have seen the show globally.

340 million in the United States total. That's pretty deep penetration, as we say in TV.

I would say so. That's amazing.

The reason I asked the question, and you didn't flinch, was that I think some people would feel like that's a pretty heavy role. It means Jesus, basis of the world's largest religion, God himself, according to Christians. Did you ever feel that on you? That's a lot.

In the first season I did, there was this moment, especially Which I've talked about at times where, and I think it still affects me, I actually like telling the story because it's a reminder for me to remember what it's all about and who I'm serving as I endeavor to portray this role. We were about midway through the first season, and the time came for me as Jesus to start preaching full-on sermons. We started filming. Then as I was going through these words, it's like I felt I was outside of myself, listening to myself listening to myself, preach to a crowd outside the doors of, in our story, Zebedi, James and John's Father, Zebedee's house. There was a crowd of people that was growing, a crowd of onlookers, our wonderful background actors that participate in the show, and many of whom have participated for years, this crowd starts growing outside the house as Jesus begins preaching. The scene is not specifically about Jesus. It's about other stuff that's happening in the background that becomes the foreground of the story. In the background, Jesus is preaching, but I still have to preach. I still have to say these lines from scripture convincingly and try to mesmerize and galvanize the people that are listening to me and get their attention.

They seemed really attentive, so much so that it made me really self-aware. I thought, What am I saying? What are these words? These are holy, holy words set by the holiest being that ever walked the face of the Earth. I shouldn't be doing this. This feels wrong. I would have those feelings, and then we would stop and then move on to the next set up and put the camera in a different place. And then as it went on, I just had to stop the production for a moment to talk to the director, to Dallas Jenkins. And I said, Can we just slow down a second? And he said, What's going on? We I took him aside. I said, Listen, man, I'm having a hard time right now. I was starting to feel panicked and overwhelmed, almost like I've only had one panic attack in my life, and it started to feel like it was creeping into that, and I didn't know why or how. Well, I thought I knew why and what was going on. But I just said, Can we slow it down? He said, What's going on? I said, I'm saying these words and and hearing them, hearing myself say them, I don't feel worthy to be saying them.

This is why I tell this story, because it drives home the point of the gift that I've been given in playing this role. He puts his hand on my shoulder and he says, Brother, None of us are truly worthy. But here we are. I mean, it's you and me. Here we are. We're doing this so that the world may know his story, those who haven't heard his story, may know the impact that he's had on the world and on our lives, personally. I'm slightly paraphrasing because it's been many years since we shot that. But that was the essence And it settled my spirit. I thought, he's right. He's right. For whatever reason God saw fit to put me in that role and not somebody else. Nobody else auditioned. There weren't auditions for the role. He had just called me up and said, do you want to do this again? I said, yes, of course. I didn't hesitate. But then when we got to that moment, it started to dawn on me the weight of what it was that I was being given to do and would then inform the encounter in the experiences that I would have as the show progressed and as we now arrive here at the dawn of Season 5.

When you started the series, did you believe it?

Did you believe in the gospel Oh, yeah. I was raised Christian. I was baptized Greek Orthodox. We lived in New York City. Then when my family moved into the suburbs, there weren't really Greek Orthodox options. My dad, having gone to a Catholic school in Egypt, and my mom being Catholic from Ireland and raised in the faith as well, were more than happy to just go down the street to the local Catholic Church. It was familiar to my dad and part of my mom's upbringing. For myself and my sisters, it didn't feel different. It just felt right. I'm in my first communion in my confirmation as a Catholic. Probably when I got into my early 20s, I was revisiting the idea of my Orthodox roots as cousins and family members were getting married in the Orthodox Church. I so admired the beauty and the sanctity with which they approach the liturgy, which is different than Catholicism for the most part. I mean, there's Eastern Catholic rights, which are more similar to Greek Orthodox, but it was different. But it didn't draw me to go back completely. Because I think I just felt like, no, this feels like the truth as I understand it in God's eyes.

This seems true. And It's the church that Christ himself ultimately started. For the reasons God knows, and despite every effort to thwart it, especially the largest empire in the world at the time, despite the Roman Empire's attempts to stamp it out.

Through murder. Yeah.

It didn't happen. It's still going. That means something me. Doing this show, playing the character of Jesus, working with the Hallel app, doing all these prayer and meditation challenges with them, learning more about other stories of faith, other people of faith, through the challenges that we have coming up for Lent here. I've grown deeper in my faith. It's drawing me closer to the church to want to know more about the aspects of the church that I didn't necessarily grow up learning. I went to public school. I had the Tuesday afternoon catechism or whatever the day was where you went to catechism at- CCD? After school. I didn't learn any of the things that I've learned in the last several years because that's just not designed that way. The church has such a rich history and tradition. It's so It's such a storehouse. There's so much to know and to learn. Through the experiences of playing Christ and getting to force myself to go into prayer and meditation prior to every season through these periodical prayer challenges, like we just did one in advent for Hallowe, and that we're doing the Pray 40, which starts today, ash, Wednesday.

It's forced me to just spend more time in the presence of God and it wants me to get closer to him. What is lent? Lent is...

Begins today.

Begins today is 40 days of prayer, fasting, and almsgiving, leading up to Good Friday, the Friday before Easter, the day Jesus Christ dies died on the cross and gave his life for humanity. Two days later, three days later, we say, if you include Friday, Easter Sunday, Jesus redirected from the dead and original sin on the stain on mankind is lifted through our belief in Christ. For me, lent is a time to, I think, simplify, and it's a It's a time to sacrifice, and it's a time to draw myself closer through the way of the cross. Basically, the theme of Halley's Pray 40 Challenge this year is called the Way It's the way of surrender, the way of Christ, basically. Everything that he did leading up to his passion, death, and resurrection is something for us to meditate on in that 40 days. Typically, we try to make some meaningful sacrifice. Some people say, Oh, is it time to give up chocolate? Well, if chocolate is something that gives you joy and happiness, then yeah, that might be a good thing for you to give up for 40 days. It can be really hard. For some people, like me, be coffee.

For some people, it's alcohol. For some people, it's cigars or cigarettes or something.

We do Aspherus every year. It's not the toughest Lent program.

Does Aspherus give you joy? Because if it doesn't... Just kidding. Tucker, I would think you may want to revisit.

What do we think of that? Okay. Lent is Here, the period before Easter, the 40 days, and it's a unique chance to get closer to God. That's the point of it. Hallow, the world's number one prayer app, can help you do that. Joining their prayer, 40 Challenge. It's a great way to connect with Christians all over the world and unite in preparation for Easter, which is the payoff of this season. It's called The Way. It helps participants focus on how Jesus is the way to heaven. If you join the challenge, you'll embark on a spiritual journey with some of America's most convicted Jesus followers. Powerful stories prayer, you grow in your ability to sacrifice. That's what Lent is. It's a sacrifice. And taking thought-provoking sermons and true stories of faith in action, which are amazing. This year is going to be the best Lent ever. Thousands of people praying together all over the world, and you can be part of it through Hallow, which, by the way, is in use in my house, and a nightly topic of conversation. You can sign up at hallow. Com/tucker. When you join, check out thousands of guided prayers, meditations, music, and everything.

There's a ton on Hallow, all designed to help you find peace and closeness to God. Download the Hallow app and jump onto the Lent Pray 40 Challenge right now. Tucker says it best, their credit card companies are ripping Americans off, and enough is enough. This This is Senator Roger Marshall of Kansas. Our legislation, the Credit Card Competition Act, would help in the grip Visa and MasterCard have on us. Every time you use your credit card, they charge you a hidden fee called a swipe fee, and they've been raising it without even telling you. This hurts consumers and every small business owner. In fact, American families are paying $1,100 in hidden swipe fees each year. The fees Visa and MasterCard charge Americans are the highest in the world, double candidates, and eight times more than Europe's. That's why I've taken action, but I need your help to help get this passed. I'm asking you to call your senator today and demand they pass the credit card competition Act. Paid for by the Merchants Payments Coalition, not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee, www. Merchantspaymentscoalition. Com. They speak of darkness and danger, but totalitarian novels also give us hope, showing us how to defend our society from the horrors of tyranny.

In Hillsdale College's free online course, Totalitarian Novels, Hillsdale President Larry Arn teaches us lessons from classic novels like George Orwell's 1984 that are as relevant today as ever. Sign up now for Hillsdale College's free online course, Totalitarian Novels, at tuckerforhillsdale. Com. That's tuckerforhillsdale. Com. How do you observe it?

Well, I start typically by going to Mass, getting Ashes, which I have not yet done, and then fasting on... Well, especially Ashes Wednesday. But typically, and it's not an obligation, but I like to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays. Sometimes it's nothing but maybe water. Sometimes it's just no meat. Fridays in Lent, especially, No meat, fish soups, broths, or even, okay, it's like fasting from the flesh. You're denying the flesh, you're denying yourself. It's about denial. It recalls Christ's 40 days in the desert prior to the start of his ministry when he denied himself everything, food, water, the temptations that he was faced with in the desert. He steadfast and came out ready to basically start his ministry. The practice of fasting is, spiritually speaking, is super powerful. I mean, if there's obstacles or challenges that you're experiencing in your life that just don't seem to be resolved through traditional prayer. Jesus himself was confronted by the disciples at one point, I think they were trying to cast out these demons in their community, and it wasn't working. They had been given the power to do that. He comes up on them and They basically said, We tried everything.

We cast them out in your name and everything. It didn't work. Why didn't it work? He said, paraphrasing, Some demons can only be cast out through prayer and fasting. That's It's like an extra superpower level that you get given when you commit to denying yourself the things that the body needs with the intention that you are offering something up to God.

Have you experienced that?

Yeah. There have been decisions in my life that I'd really been, or not even, people. I'll go even more personal. People that I prayed for that were sick were in a comatose state. Through prayer and fasting, remarkably on a particular day that I did this, came out of it. Then for weeks, just unresponsive. Really? Yeah. It's It's a game changer.

Fasting. Yeah.

In fact, so to tie it to part of the reason why I'm here today, it's on Fridays in this prayer challenge on Hallow, Mark Wallberg and Chris Pratt handle the fasting portion of the challenge. You go through this challenge seven days a week, and on Fridays, which is the day we typically fast from meat, they get into the spirituality and the psychology of fasting, but the potent spirituality of denial and what that means. It's super powerful, man. It affects change like few things do.

Really? Yeah. And that's like a true fast, not eat.

Yeah. It's something that I would pray about. For some people, having just bread and water is extremely difficult. Or even just a bowl of soup or water. The Catholic Church has suggested guides. It's essentially one meal and partial meals. Not a full second meal, I believe is one meal a day. But if that's too easy for you and you're like, Well, that's not... I don't feel like I'm sacrificing anything by just one meal. I want to go no food at all or maybe just some water or a couple of pieces of bread, bread and water, then that becomes your fasting. So I think it depends, but it's always something that I take to in prayer first. Lord, how do you want me to approach this fast? How can I deny myself? What do you need from me in this fast? And how can I serve you better through this fast?

It's funny Fasting is the one piece of religious observance that has pretty much disappeared in public conversations about religious observance. Fasting sounds like an evil practice.

Well, especially here in the West, you When you go to the Middle East, it's like, what are you talking about? Of course, I'm fasting.

Or it's a full month. Yeah. We're in it right now. Yeah, no food or water or tobacco or sex during the day, period. Wow. No water. But there it's considered like a celebration, as you know.

Well, I also find even the Middle Eastern Christians, like the Orthodox, Coptic Orthodox, they They're much more culturally rigorous when it comes to fasting. Not just meat, but no dairy. Same thing with Muslims, no dairy, I believe, no meat, no dairy, no oils. There's a number of different levels. But the same thing with the Christians and my family, they're like, Wow, we don't do... The Catholic don't do the no dairy thing. But yeah, you're I mean, here in the West, it's- It does make you wonder if- You say you're fasting, people say, why? Then you got to explain. It's foreign.

I mean, it's all over the New Testament, references to fasting. As you just said, it's not simply Christianity. It was just a feature of religious subsurpents from the beginning of time, and it's gone. In the mainstream, it's gone. So you wonder, is there a connection between eating and spiritual awareness, clearly there is. Is there a connection between over eating and spiritual dullness? Maybe there is. If you wake up and everyone's fat, which is true, including me from time to time, so I'm not judging. There's a spiritual component there now. Or am I- Well, I mean- It's a crazy suggestion.

One of the seven deadly sins is gluttony.

Yeah.

It doesn't have to be food, but it can be. How are you being gluttonous in your life? Are you hoarding things? Is it food? Is it just not putting any boundaries on your satiety? You know what? I think it's something that can fuel other leaches into breaking that spiritual connection to the divine.

I mean, there's no doubt. One of the most striking things about having grown up and living in the modern West is realizing things later in life that are glaringly obvious, and you think to yourself, How did I not notice that? Of course, gluttony is bad. Greed is bad. Worshiping money is bad. These are all violences bad. These are all the things that I've realized in the last couple of years. It never occurred to me. Not one time.

Well, then you see movies. I mean, here's the power of entertainment. You see a movie like Wall Street. You got Michael Douglas, who was a superstar at that time. It was the height of his career. Greed is good. Isn't that the phrase from that movie?

Yeah, but the funny thing is, I'm old enough to remember when that came out, which I think was in the late '80s. It was used, it became political immediately, and it was like, this is what the Reagan era is like, and they're all greedy and whatever. Of course, I was not a liberal, so I was like, oh, shut up. But I do think that was the... It's been almost 40 years. That was the last time I remember anybody in the United States saying greed was bad. That was the last time. Have you heard anybody say that? Maybe some far-out, wacko protester or something, but no one you'd ever meet. I really have ever heard anybody say greed is bad since then. Have you?

No. I mean, it's... It is. Yeah. But It's everywhere, too. It's everywhere, which is maybe why you don't hear.

Yeah, eating every day until you get fat. Also bad. Again, not judging. I've been greedy and I've been a glutton, so, again, not judging, but it's bad. Why not say... I don't know. Sorry, I'm I'm just coming to these very obvious conclusions.

Well, I think, luckily, we have... I mean, that's what repentance is for in the Christian life. It's becoming aware of your faults and the way that you hurt people or hurt yourself even. If the body is truly a temple of the Lord, a reflection of the creation and of the Creator, God, and you're hurting yourself, then it's like it's an affront to God, which is why things like gluttony are sinful because it's- But it also dulls you.

It's like a bong head or three beers or something. It keeps you from experiencing anything beyond yourself. Yeah.

You're now creating a wall around the ability to be connected to from the divine. It's like you're walling yourself off from God in a way.

It puts cheesecloth over your hole. That's right.

You know what I mean? I love that you used food as a reference to... No, I'm just thinking of something that dulls the camera and makes the edges softer, and you don't fully perceive what's happening.

You eat two Big Macs you're not as aware of anything.

Oh, my gosh. It's like, talk about comatose.

It's a head injury, right?

Yeah, 100%.

And so fasting is the opposite. You're hyper aware.

That's right. And you're mind, it's just like you sense everything. Interesting. The longer you do it, it starts to... I know people who have done 40-day water fasts. I don't... Like with electrolys and stuff that's not where they're... It still sounds dangerous, but I don't know how... I tried it for a week, one lent. I got through four days of it, and I'm like, This isn't going to work. Your body starts to do stuff that you have no control over. I can't imagine. It's like, I think we're dying, so let's just get rid of everything. I'm like, Wait, I'm at work. I'm on a set. This doesn't work. I can't keep running to that. I said, Lord, please forgive me. I can't continue this if I'm going to work for the rest of the week because unless you make it stop, it's not stopping. I got a little TMI, but there's the truth.

A friend of mine-a friend of mine, last who was coming off a three-week fast. He's a very spiritual man. I happened to be at his house when he broke his fast, and the first course was soup. He had one thing in his mouth for three weeks other than water. That's it.

Three-week water.

Three He speaks, 21 days, and he puts the spoon in the soup, and he holds it. He's talking, and he holds it in front of his mouth. He's making a point, and I'm watching as everyone's looking at it, and then he puts it down, and then he does it again. He's making this point, and then he puts it down again. I thought. You're like, eat the soup. That's self-control. Yeah.

At that point, I would think you almost don't want to break it. You're like, How long can I go? That's totally right. How far can I go with this?

It's so funny, though. People go pay to climb Everest or, you know what I mean, or go participate in some radical sport, and they take these crazy risks and they push themselves past obvious boundaries. I'm not criticizing. I admire that. It's great. But no one ever thinks to just not eat for a week and see what happens. That is a pretty bold thing to do. And maybe we're trying.

I think everybody should try fasting. If they've never fasted, everybody should try fasting. I mean, if you've got medical conditions, I'm not a doctor. But I think discern it, pray about it. I've only found it helpful. I think even if it's just for a day, See what denial, denying yourself food, what does that do for your mind, for your spirit? I don't know, if you don't have a sense of spirituality, it might not mean anything. It might just be a challenge. I wonder if I can do it. But I think the point is not to do it for the sake of doing it. I think to do it for the sake of depriving yourself and offering up the pain and and the discomfort, and for some people, the suffering that that might cause, taking that pain and suffering and discomfort through the fast and offering it towards an intention, a sick person, the decision to move to a new home, problems that a child is having in school, any obstacles or challenges that seem insurmountable, fast, Fast about it. Pray and fast about it, pray and fast about it, and see what the Lord can do with that and with your heart, because then it's what you're doing is you're opening up your heart.

It's not about, well, if I do this exactly X, Y, and Z. I mean, Jesus's whole thing, issue with the pharisees, you cleanse the outside of a cup, but then the stuff that's already inside you is just is rotten. Your thoughts and your heart is rotten. So it doesn't matter that you wash your hands before you eat this and you eat that. He was calling out the pharisees at one point for being so specific and attentive to the law. But meanwhile, he could see in their hearts that they just had malice and they had evil, and they weren't doing the right thing for the priests of the time, what they should have been doing. The same thing. It's like fasting just to see if you can get through it, it doesn't really serve anyone other than your own ego. That's right. But offering up the pain that comes with the fasting, the denial that comes with fasting, the hunger pains, that then gets applied in a spiritual way. That then assigns spiritual rewards to you by offering that for somebody.

No, that's right. It's, by the way, just in point of fact, I know because I've done a lot of fasting, actually, and I love it, but it's not-What's been the biggest thing that you've seen? It's not an effective weight loss approach. In fact, I was talking in front of my other day, it was Muslim, who said, I always get fat during Ramadan because the second the sun goes down, you're pounding a dozen dates and going crazy with the hummus. Which is awesome. But I don't think... I love hummus. Don't ever go to me for medical advice, of course, but I don't think going to fasting to lose weight is effective at all. But I do think... I think this way, it's like, if they're pushing on you weed, Xanax, and endless bread baskets, maybe there's an agenda which is to make you duller and less aware of what's going on around you. And I think-Sicker. And of course, sicker. That's exactly right. But I must say I'd rather be dead than dull. You know what I mean? It's like sick is bad, but unaware is worse, in my opinion. There are a lot of really enlightened sick people out there, actually.

Joyful sick people. Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

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Policygenius. Com/tucker. Okay, so you said you made reference to Jesus's exchanges with the pharisees. I'm reading Matthew right now. I'm really struck this time by the intensity of his rage at the pharisees. He's pretty gentle with everybody else. Including the Roman officer, the occupying army, pagan, worshiping the stars or whatever. Jesus is really kind to him. Pharises, I mean, it is just... Matthew goes on for five pages. He's mad. What do you make of that?

Well, I think you have to ask yourself, well, why is he mad? And what is he mad about? And who are the Pharisees to him? I think it goes back to what I was referencing in that, here you have who are people that are supposed to be models of God's law and rule and grace. The pharisees, the priests, the people that the people look up to for spiritual advice and wisdom and guidance. Because Jesus can read souls and know what's in their hearts, he sees they're probably the worst of them. He knows that they have ill will towards him, and they don't have the interests of the people in their hearts because they're so enraptured by the letters of the law. He said, You're so concerned about the letter of the law that you're not even considered about the heart of the law, which is God's mercy and justice. How are these How are you treating these people? The fact that they would go every year on Passover, the poorest of the poor, trying to bring their offerings and sacrifices that through extortion were getting charged 500%, probably more than what they should have. I don't know the exact numbers, but the point was that they were being extorted every step of the way by their own leaders, these pharisees.

That for him was the straw that broke the camel's back. The next day, he's clearing the temple. Flipping the tables over. Flipping tables, whipping, using a whip to clear money changes stands and just outraged God's righteous anger.

Yeah, it's not the gentle Jesus at all.

No. Excuse me. No, it's not. It's the fury of the Lord, really, come to visit them. It's not fire from heaven, but it's fire on earth in this man's eyes. Yes. Also, the precursor to what sets him up for the crucifixion. I think on some level, he knows, number one, he has to make an impression, and he is vindicated through his actions because of who they are, who the pharisees truly are deep down inside. But also that this will then continue the chain of events that have been set into motion that will put him on the cross so that he can redeem mankind.

It seems like all of his anger is reserved for hypocrites. They get singled out repeatedly. He seems to really hate that. The people in charge, the powerful. That's my read. I mean, I'm the opposite of the theologian.

I think with power, there's greed, there's hurting people at someone else's expense. There's taking advantage. When you have all of these forces that try to I think take control over a society and a people through power, through influence, and there's nothing that those people can do. I mean, it's the definition of injustice. Yes. God is about justice. Blessed are those who thirst for righteousness, who thirst for justice, basically. It was one of the things that was most important to him, that people experience to have justice and feel human and be seen and be not discounted because of their status, because of their financial situation because of what family they were born into or what cased, for lack of a better term, that they were born into. I think it was something that it was a last stand for him, basically, when he cleared the temple. All the preaching and the teaching didn't have enough of an effect on the pharisees for to change what they were doing. No, it didn't. I think he had to show, don't tell. He had to show and not tell.

When you're reading your scripts, when you're preparing, you're basically reading the gospel?

Yeah. Gospel plus, I'll say. Because as a TV show, it's not always... The scriptures, as they are, don't always give the full picture of a conversation.

They definitely don't.

Of a character, of a person. We have to, through a group of biblical scholars and advisors that help us and give insight into the things that we're writing, we have to craft these plausible, hopefully authentic backstories that create believable characters that could have existed in the first century that augment the world that the Gospels give us a glimpse into. A lot of it is scripture, yes, but then there is some creative license taken just to be able to make a good TV show. Because at the end of the day, this isn't the Bible. We're not saying this is the Bible. We have a TV show, first and foremost, that is based on the Gospels and hopefully is compelling enough for you to really get hooked into it and binge it just like you would binge any other TV show. Then start asking yourself, Well, what did Jesus really say? Did he say these things? Is this character really like this? I want to explore. Then if you can get people to read the Bible and then want to have a relationship or even explore what it means to have faith, if you've never had faith, or even be curious about Christ.

I mean, inevitably, that is the relationship in a person's life that will change their life irrevocably, I mean, forever. If we can create an entertaining story that is based on the truth of the Gospels and who Jesus and the disciples were, maybe it'll introduce people to Christ in in a way that the audience is introduced to him, and maybe they'll want to follow him, too.

How did it change your life, the gospel?

I think the more I read the Gospels, the more I discover. The Bible is alive. It's the living word, right? They say the Bible is alive. At any given time, you read a passage from scriptures, from the Gospels, even from the Old Testament, the letters of Paul, the Acts, that somehow will apply to your own life, especially when you're struggling with something. If I'm struggling with something, I just can't figure it out. I have no ideas about where to go to resolve But inevitably, the answer is somewhere in the book, and it's a matter of sitting down with it and reading it. I mean, it's remarkable the amount of times I've had something in front of me that I just didn't know how to deal with it. Then I would flip to a random page, and it's like, the answer is right there. It's right there. I stopped being surprised about it. I just like, of course. I take notes.

Sincere Christians never seem surprised by anything. I've noticed that.

It's amazing.

It is amazing.

I've met those people where, and we talked a little bit about this at one point, where the craziest things are happening that they already had an intuition was going to happen. I don't even know what's a good example. There have been so many There's a lot of times where it's like somebody wanted to try and get rid of their house or something like that, trying to sell their house. They had a a certain amount of... It's just an example. They had a week to get out of their house for somebody to buy their house. Somebody just comes knocking on the door and says, Hey, you got a beautiful house. You're not selling this by chance, are you? And you're like, Well, As a matter of fact, I am. It just so happens that they're like, Lord, just let us find somebody that wants this house. We didn't even put it on the market yet. Then somebody knocks on their door an hour later. I mean, crazy stories. And I'm like, Yeah, God just did it. I'm like, How? You don't seem fazed. Yes. That, to me, even, is just- I totally agree. Remarkable.

To flip it over, they never seem shocked by how screwed up the world is. I'm shocked every single day. I can't believe they're committing abortion outside the DNC, or I can't believe this, that, the other thing. I'm always like, I can't believe the persecution of Christians. Why would you persec Christians? They're like, They've never mugged anybody. Even Even if you think their religion's silly, they're the most peaceful people in the world. Their religion commands them to be. Why are we hating on them and banning their apps in Europe or whatever we're doing, putting them in jail for praying? But sincere Christians is like, well, yeah. What did you think was going to happen? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, because he Jesus set it up that way.

Kind of did.

He told us 2,000 years ago, you'll be hated because of me, persecuted because of me. Like, He lays it all out 2,000 years ago. But just know, it's okay. I overcame the world. You're good. Just remember that you're good when things hit the fan. Just remember that.

Well, I still find it infuriating. Sure. Sorry. I'm obviously not a good person.

No, it's a natural response.

There's a lot of persecution of Christians, and I'm really bothered by it. Yeah. Your family, at least on one side, is Arab Christian. Awful lot of Arab Christians get killed in a bunch of different countries all the time, and no one says a word about it.

No. Do you notice this? I do. Yeah, I do a lot. Christian persecution is something really close to my heart. In fact, I just executive-produced an animated short film called The 21, which came out towards the end of February on the 10th anniversary of the martyrdom of the 21 martyrs in Libya, who were all... Well, 20 of them were Coptic Christians from Egypt. One of them was non-Christian, initially from Ghana. They just rounded up all these guys. The ISIS came and rounded them up and tried to force them to deny their faith. They're just migrant workers. Like, They were just like, We're just trying to... They went off to work for a few weeks to try to make some money. They got rounded up, just captured. And, Isis was like, Yeah, deny your faith and we'll let you go. Don't deny it, I'll kill you. They're like, Oh, well, we're not going to do that. They tortured them for months. Even the guy from Ghana, Jesus said to him, You can go. You're not. You're okay. You're not Christian. You're not one of these guys. He's like, No, no, no. Their God is my God.

And so they say he converted and he died with them. Six years ago, this producer, a friend of mine named Mark Rogers, he was in Egypt and he knew about the story and he saw the image of one of these martyrs who had who had a lazy eye, and it reminded him of the image, which actually is on this little medallion of Christ, the Pantocrat. Basically, it's that figure of Christ that it's got both sides of his face One side of him represents the divinity of Christ, one side represents the humanity of Christ. In one of the sides, his eye in one side is drooped, and it reminded him of this image of Christ. He got this idea to create this animated short film about the Martyrs and their story. It turned out to be stunning. 21film. Com People want to see it. It's an extraordinary short film, beautiful, that implements Coptic iconography into the animation. It was actually on the Oscar shortlist. It didn't get nominated, but it found its way onto this shortlist of 15 selections, and then they whittle it down to the top five. It had no marketing, it had no advertisement, nothing.

But somehow, I think enough people saw this like, No, this is amazing. It tells their story and the mystical nature of their experience and of actually their captors, what they experienced with these while they had these guys in captivity and the divinyly mystical experiences that they had. Are captures? Yeah, are represented in the short film. In fact, if you haven't seen, I'll send you a link, but it's gorgeous. At the end of the day, what people walk away with is that these guys had the opportunity to say, No, I'm not Christian, and then live. But none of them did it. They went to their graves, literally.

They were just random migrant workers?

Migrant workers.

Not evangelists, just people.

Christian migrant workers, poor migrant workers, I think construction or farming or something. They wouldn't deny their faith. I got a chance to screen this film for the first time with the families of the martyrs 10 years later. Oh, my gosh. Which was a... Words fail me because it It was such an overwhelmingly powerful experience to be there with them and have them reliving this experience. But when you talk to them, full of joy, full of joy. They, more than one of them thanked their captors because they feel, and as Christians, we believe this, that because they died for their faith, they got a straight shot right to the divine, right to God. They're like, We thank them because they sent them right to heaven. The Coptic Church declared them saints, and then very recently, the Catholic Church, it's the first time it's happened, Catholic Church also considered them saints because they died for the faith in the way that they die. It's so inspirational. It's unbelievable. Right now, I'm trying to get the film for more people to see and get it out there so people are aware that these stories exist. This is a reality for people, for Christians in the Middle East.

This is a reality that their lives are on the line for their beliefs.

That's for sure. Time for another True Life, ALP story. I got a call from a friend of mine yesterday, honestly, true story, who said his girlfriend had just broken up with him over ALP. He wouldn't stop. I thought to myself, that's sad. He said, no, it's not I said, Imagine if I'd married her. Now I know I was saved. Then the next day, this same friend is driving at twice a speed limit through a major American city, pulled over by a cop in a speed trap. Cop takes his license registration, goes back to the patrol car, runs him, comes back, looks in the window, and sees a tin of ALP on the dashboard, pauses, stunned, says to my friend, You use ALP? Yeah, I do, says my friend. So do I, says the cop. We all do. He looks at my friend thoughtfully and goes, Drive safely, sir, and hands back his license and registration. No ticket. In two days, he's saved from a tragic marriage to a girl who doesn't like ALP and a speeding ticket. All true. It's more than a nickel ticket. In an age of 350 million people are guessing there are about 350 million ALP stories.

Email us yours. We want to know and read it on the air. Email tellall@alppouch. Com. Tell all@alpouch. Com. Give us your ALP story. You must learn a lot from playing this role.

I have. Yeah, I've learned how much I have to learn.

It's just, I don't know how often we think of Jesus as fully a man, though, as you pointed out he was. Yeah. What's that like, trying to get inside the head of Jesus?

Well, I don't think I can ever do it successfully, completely. The only thing that I... I can't do it successfully at all. The only thing that I can do, believing Jesus was fully God and fully man, but sinless in his humanity. The only thing that I can relate to is the humanity part. My own flawed humanity at that deeply, deeply, deeply, flawed humanity. But luckily, I don't have to rely on me. I don't rely on me. I rely on him. My job is to simply show up, come with an open heart. I do a lot of praying and fasting before the every season. I pray before every scene, and then do the best that I can to simply be, for lack of a better term, a mirror of the divine. I'm like, I just show up and I'm like, I'm just trying to mirror the divine, reading the words that I have, being a vessel for which the Holy spirit can use me to reach the truth of the gospel to the people that watch this show. If it goes beyond entertainment for some people, awesome. I mean, between the show and between the Hallow app, the amount of feedback and changed lives that have occurred, the stories that we get about people that are...

They They were atheists all their life, and somebody gave them the show, and all of a sudden, something tweaked in their heart, and they're like, Why do I feel this way about this guy? I want to I want to know this guy. Or people who haven't been to church in 30 years. Elapsed Catholic. I haven't been to church in 30 years. Started going back to church. Went to my first confession in 30 years. Went to my first confession in 15 years. I've heard all of these things. I even once... I was in confession once myself, and a guy came out of the confessional when he recognized me. He was like, Oh, yeah. And so he starts talking to me, and then he starts to tell me what he was telling the priest in the confession. I said, No, no, no. No, no. Anything interesting? You keep it in there. I wouldn't let him get that for her. No, I said, That's not for my ears. Save it for the confessor.

I'm not Catholic, but I've always thought that confession is the coolest thing they do.

It's a gift, man. It's a lifesaver.

Of course. When it became psychotherapy and you put an atheist with bad judgment on the couch across from you, I don't think we lost something. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

But the You don't need to connect to unburden yourself. You know what's wrong, by the way. Most people know. You don't need to be a Christian to know what's wrong. Everyone inside you, you know when you're doing something wrong. To say it out loud, to articulate it in words, is to rid yourself of it to some extent, I think.

Then for the sacramental part of it, that's where the healing comes in. That's where the spiritual healing comes in. It's like It's like if you're a cheesecloth full of holes, and you go into confession and you receive the sacrum of reconciliation from the priest. The priest, we believe, he's been given divine authority that has maybe a not visible, but a tangible physical, metaphysical effect on the casing of your soul. It's like mending the little holes. Every confession is like you're closing up those holes and restoring that connection with God in a way that is essentially repairing your soul. That's what the sacramental part of confession is for us. Which is hugely comforting and also physically tangible. For me, I feel just chemically slightly different after every confession that I go through in a way that's like, Okay, I can breathe a little easier.

I believe that completely. I've never experienced it, but I believe that.

It's like nothing else.

What's it like for you to be recognized on the street for playing Jesus? I know just from having dinner with you last night and telling people you were coming here, there's a lot of intensity. I've been on television for 30 years. I've never experienced anything like what you experienced, for example, in my house last night. People are very intense when they see you. It's bound up in their feelings for you, but also their feelings for Jesus. What's that like?

I give God all the credit. I give Jesus the credit. Like our buddy Russell Brand, I was once his stand-in. I feel like I'm Jesus's stand-in. Jesus is the star, and I'm his stand-in.

You were Russell Brand standard.

I was Russell Brand standard.

Looking at you, I'm not that surprised. If I was casting a standard for Russell Brand, I think it would be you.

Not too bad. It's all right. We had a good time with him. He's all right. He's a good mate. He's a good guy.

He's a good man. I love that man.

I love him so much.

I totally agree. But I mean, without getting too personal, it's a fixture of life.

Yeah.

Maybe not all positive. What's Whole Foods like for you?

Depends on what part of town we are.

No, I shouldn't say this. Probably not too many people watch the chosen Whole Foods, but like a normal non-antheist grocery store.

I mean, let's take Whole Foods. In some parts of the country, I got to go in with a hood and glasses. In other parts, especially the coastal cities like New York and LA, it's just another day. It can be people-They must take for a bike messenger, but in Michigan, they know. That's very appropriate. Yeah, that's very appropriate. It can be interesting. I think because of who I'm playing and because there is this, oftentimes this front loaded relationship that they already have with Jesus, Then I become stand in like the face of that relationship that they now when they read the Bible, I've been told this, my face pops into their mind as they're hearing scriptures or they're seeing... I mean, even for myself, when I'm at Mass and the priest is reading the gospel and he's talking about Peter. I'm thinking of Shahar Isaac, who plays Peter in our show, and I'm like, Okay, I can't get him out of my head. But okay, I love Shahar, and he's great as Peter. Yeah, it's just you try, even as an artist, you still suffer that. You can't quite make the separation. Yeah, because you now have this relationship with these people and these characters.

To be the face of what is often the most important relationship in a person's life, even beyond their family, it's like God first and then family and then everything else. To be the face of that for people, I try not to think about that.

Yeah, it's more than being the sidekick on Seinfeld.

Yeah. I think God's given me the gift and the grace of being somewhat blinded to the the magnitude of it and the weight of it.

That's good.

Sometimes I can feel it. Most of the time, I think I'm shielded from it because I think if I was aware of exactly what that implication was, even for a single person, it would crush me.

Yes, self-awareness is a burden. I would not recommend it at all. I don't have any, so it's never bothered me. But I know people who are highly self-aware, and they're in agony all day.

I mean, other things, I have a lot of that in other areas, but when it comes to playing this character, I'm glad I don't have much.

Smart. No, so that is a blessing. What is Hallow? How'd you hook up with it?

Hallow is the world's largest, and for my money, the greatest prayer and meditation app a person can ever find. Like ever. There are thousands and thousands of ways, prayers and challenges and meditations that people can use in their daily life to the point of automation You just set it up and you get reminders where you can just connect with God in the most creative ways. For me, it has been a way to keep me completely focused on God. When I'm in the middle of life, it's an opportunity for me to access my faith in a consistent way and to get through life's biggest challenges. There's so many prayers on this app that I use daily, like daily. For instance, there's a prayer called the Surrender Novena. Novena, it's a Latin word, just means nine days. It's a prayer you say for nine days. This particular prayer has been so valuable to so many people. Basically, it's very simple, but you repeat it 10 times. And there's all in the app, it walks you through it. But the essence of it is this prayer where you simply say, Oh, Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything.

Oh, Jesus, I surrender myself to you. Take care of everything. You repeat that 10 times. The number of people that have experienced profound grace and just ease of their burden, the lightness of the weight in their life, it's been... I've never heard of a prayer that's had such a profound effect. Like the rosary is another one. There was this couple. They were trying to have their first baby. They had a miscarriage. They were in a pretty severe state crisis, depression, everything that comes with that. Yes. They see an ad for Hallowe. They download the app. They start praying. Specifically, they start praying the surrender prayer that I was telling you about, the surrender novena and the rosary. They were Catholic as well, so they were familiar with them. They prayed the rosary, super powerful weapon, and the surrender novena. They get pregnant again. Their relationship is really growing together in faith and in God, strongest that it's ever been. Five months in, they lose the baby. They're holding their past son who had passed away. The words that come to mind for this woman is the surrender prayer. Oh, Jesus, I surrender myself to you.

Take care of everything. It's the first words that come to her mind. They told us, they said that if they hadn't gotten into this consistent routine of communicating with God through prayer, if their faith hadn't been strengthened, that second miscarriage would have destroyed their marriage, but it didn't. They kept going. A year later, they had a healthy baby boy. The first words that came her mouth that time was the prayer from numbers. Lord bless you and keep you. Lord shine us face upon you. Be gracious to you. The Lord look kindly upon you and give you peace. I think his son's name is Jack, I think. The power of having that relationship, the power of prayer, the power of being in a constant dialog with God, it's what we were made for. We were designed to worship. We were designed for that relationship. It's in our DNA. The more we try to ignore it or squash it or bury it or ignore it or pretend it doesn't exist or that it's not there or replace it with something else, the more we just run in circles, the more we try to fill that hole with something else, with some other vice, some other endeavor, some other righteous indignation of something, some other effort that will never substitute, never replace our need for God.

It'll never replace it. For me, it's like playing Jesus in the chosen. It's one of the the most important things that I've ever done artistically. All of this for me feels like an apostelate. It feels like I'm a media apostle. I feel like that's what I was sent here to do. At this time and place, to be a part of this, what I see as this growing movement in film and television, in the culture that is That is truly counterculture to the current culture.

That's for sure.

To be a part of the ushering in of this opportunity of expression that supersedes the previous iterations of what this looked like because it's so attentive to quality. Like the chosen aims to be a great TV show first. Because of that, the fact that the people making it are really invested in the subject matter make it that much more powerful. Then from a very myopically human level, and then God sees that, and he takes it, and he multiplies it. He multiplies the magnitude of it. The efficacy of it is then energized and multiplied globally. But even just reaching one person and changing one person's life, Dallas will tell you this as well, It's worth it just for one person. All the discomfort or whatever I may or may not feel in the world as people approach me wanting to take a selfie in the gym or in the supermarket when I'm clearly trying to get in and out. I mean, all of that discomfort for me personally, and I've been through worse. I've been through real discomfort that it's nothing, something, but it's relative. You know what I'm saying? So all of it's worth it because one person decided to go get baptized, and now they have a whole new life.

They have a spiritual awakening.

It's amazing to me how successful it's been, and it's amazing to me the reaction to it, banned in China. It's not calling for the overthrow of the CCP. It's not calling for the...

Hallow Up is banned in China.

Hallow Up is banned in China. It's also effectively banned in Europe, in effect, because Mark Zuckerberg's company, Metta, has shut down all advertising for religious-oriented faith-based advertising. So it can't operate in Europe.

Yeah, that was a tough one. They had just launched in Polish and Italian and German, all these languages. Now people can't know about the app because they've banned it.

Why is that a threat? It just does tell you everything, right? I mean, it'sUnderstanding things in reverse. It's like, why would they be upset with that? That's the kindest, least threatening, only want to help people. Why is that bad?

Yeah, I'd be curious to hear the EU's answer for that, or Metta's answer for that.

Yeah, Mark Zuckerberg's answer for that. And China's answer for that. What's wrong with that? It tells you a lot, but you don't seem shocked by that at all.

No. No, you're not. When you read of the stories for decades of people smuggling Bibles into countries, underground churches, even in the story that we cover in the Pray 40 Challenge for Hallow, it's a story of this guy Takashi Nagai. He was living in Nagasaki, Japan, right around the time of the Second World War when the bomb was dropped on his town, on Nagasaki. Japan had just come out of 300 years, basically, of Christian persecution. They had gotten rid of any... I mean, I think in the late In the 16th century, they were crucifying people. Oh, yeah. Then 300 plus years later, Nagasaki is now the largest Christian hub in all of Japan. It wasn't the first target for the bomb. No. They tried to drop the bomb somewhere else. This is all in the story that people hear about this length. It's an amazing story. This man's story is amazing. Tokashi Nagai, he's a radiologist doctor. The first target, they tried to drop the bomb, and it was too cloudy. They couldn't see, and they didn't have the conditions appropriate to drop an atomic bomb. Their second target was Nagasaki, broadly enough, right above a cathedral.

It detonated right over the cathedral and wiped out everything, and he survived. Nobody else, his family, everybody died.

Killed the majority of the Christians in Nagasaki, which was the Christian capital of Japan. Yeah. I love to hear an answer for why people are very enthusiastic about that and think it's great. I don't think it's great. I think there should be a law that American armaments can't be used to murder Christians abroad. That's pretty simple.

I agree. There is a thing that I wanted to read that he said right after the bombing, which he had converted from atheism. He Shinto, and then he was atheist, and then he converted to Christianity and Catholicism. He was influenced by the writings of Blaise Pascal. He gave a speech to his community. He was one of the very few survivors in his community. This just goes to show you the resilience and the mindset of him and how having faith can completely change the perspective, especially when you're effectively living in hell on earth, which is what Nagasaki was after the dropping of the bomb. People were walking around asking for water while their skin is melting off. It It's literal hell on earth. He said, I have heard that the atom bomb was destined for another city. Heavy clouds rendered that target impossible, and the American crew headed for the secondary target Nagasaki. Then a mechanical problem arose, and the bomb was dropped further north than planned and burst right above the cathedral. It was not the American crew I believe who chose our suburb. God's providence chose Urakami, the suburb, and carried the bomb right above our homes.

Is there not a profound relationship between the anihilation of Nagasaki and the end of the war? Was not Nagasaki the chosen victim, the lamb without blemish, slain as a hole-burnt offering on an altar of sacrifice, atoning for the sins of all the nations during World War II? Happy are those who weep. They shall be comforted. We must walk the way of reparation, but we can turn our mind's eyes to Jesus, carrying his cross up the hill of Calvary. The Lord has given, the Lord has taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord. Let us be thankful that Nagasaki was chosen for the whole burnt sacrifice. Let us be thankful that through this sacrifice, peace was granted to the world and religious freedom to Japan.

Wow.

Is that not a profound perspective?

That is not a normal secular perspective, I would say.

No.

No. That's amazing.

That is the power of a relationship with Christ. That's what that does.

For people who haven't heard it, tell us what you do for Hallowe.

I am one of the main voices on Hallow for prayers. If you want to pray a specific prayer, chances are I've recorded it and you can hear me pray it or for any of the challenges like the Pray 40 challenge, I will be guiding people through this challenge, telling people about Takash a guy's story. I'm also a creative advisor as well and come to them with ideas and work with them on different things that they're doing. I love working them. They've been such great partners. I think the reason is that they're believers themselves. They're doing this. I mean, you had Alex on the show and you heard his story. He He originally created the app for himself. God took that desire and that intention in his heart and then amplified it. Now it's the largest prayer app in the world.

It's a frequent conversation in my house. I told you yesterday, my wife's very kind never scolds me for anything. But when she saw my schedule and saw you were coming and that we hadn't invited you for dinner, she actually did bark at me because she's like your biggest fan. What? What? Pretty detached from my schedule, but yeah.

So, yes. Thank God for your wife. Thank God for my wife.

Not the first time I've thought that. Thank you. It has really been wonderful the last 24 hours to to talk to you.

It's been my honor.

Thank you very much. Thanks, Tucker. We want to thank you for watching us on Spotify, a company that we use every day. We know the people who run it, good people. While you're here, do us a favor. Hit, follow, and tap the bell so you never miss an episode. We have real conversations, news, things that actually matter. Telling the truth always. You will not miss it if you follow us on Spotify and hit the bell. We appreciate. Thanks for watching..