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Those going across to place, we're going to try and come out here. Danny there is called white Kromagg. And so Andre Cobley. Straighten it all out for words and of course, not reach it often on the inside is go to the mall. So the score here really, really free.


Troy, hello and welcome to episode two of The Up and under our podcast brought to you by Robillard Massive. Thanks to everyone who tuned in last week to the inaugural episode, absolutely overwhelmed with the positive response we got. We've taken your feedback on board and with that I am delighted to announce that former Leinster, Ireland and Lions number eight, Jamie Heaslip, has officially come on board as the co-host of the show. Jamie, you are right anyway, about the weekend.


Yeah, well, I wasn't one of them. I thought Ulster would do the job on on Sunday. Bush, Connacht were world class and and Ulster maybe. I don't know. Maybe maybe the. The fact that we're playing with a sense of freedom versus Ulster be a bit hampered by what they felt they had to do was was maybe not them. But either way, I think and interesting to get your take on it, what you thought, I definitely told the weekend was great for Irish rugby.


Oh, the standard was incredible. Look, we were only saying that last week we thought would be Gassan and blow one after 20 minutes. But ball games, ball games, the standard was incredible.


I mean, accredited it credit to the players because the standard conditioning that was obviously going on in the background and the insights they had from all the data that they have, that they obviously were able to mimic training enough over the last one to really make the benefit of it. And and then I don't know about you, but as well as some of the players absolutely jacked as well, which is great as we have always been a great joy.


He scored very well ahead, I would say, to start the game like for the Yankees.


So always the small boats and they've been great.


But I actually like what in the name of the thing about him, that always he can move on. I mean, he's got a low center of gravity. It's kind of like a fashion, Ibrihim.


So at some stage he was not so so he was able to get to that eventuality, like, you know what I mean?


But he's got the ability to smash through throws at the same time. He's another guy who and I was really surprised and I actually saw him most recently. Guy Ringrose looks like he's put a bit of timber on himself as well, I think.


And you kind of need to work up a small bit like just this thing. It's great to see these players kind of take that opportunity. And, you know, we talked about last week these guys taking the opportunity on to really. You know, it's a tough job to add muscle on and not lose speed or agility or, you know what I mean, when the guys have seem to have done it really well.


And I can imagine how hard it is when you're in the middle of a season, as you said, like you don't get that much time off.


It's maintenance, you know what I mean?


It's sort of like, OK, now you've got four months or three months, whatever it is, go east, get big. You don't have you have no rugby to worry about doing what you got to do. And you can just pour yourself, dedicate these guys. As you know, you're used to dedicate yourself to something, whereas you don't have anything. You don't have be there to dedicate yourself to. You can go, OK, that's it.


I just have a look at myself. How can I be better individually?


And you've got all the time and work to do it and as you said, happened to have always, which is great and hopefully has an edge for them going forward in Europe and then onto internationals as well. But look, all in all, it was really weird like so I don't live too far from the stadium. And so I was walking up to the bridge, the pub I'm a co-owner of, not too far from it. And I was walking up the river towards the desert.


The party was over and usually almost it's it's round one. You don't the mean it's guards everywhere, extrudes everywhere. There's real hustle. Also lots of energy fast. And then it was so weird. It was like I left my house at seven o'clock. It was dead, like dead and walking kind of walk up the river bridge like you see people all. I was just like, obviously you expected it, but it was just it was weird.


You were hearing nothing from the stadium and. Yeah, it was a bit surreal in that regard. Looking at the matches themselves, I suppose we start off with the monstrance or match. Start off with the biggest talking point is this. No human injury, obviously devastating loss. Yes. I'd like to get your own kind of insight, I suppose, as a as a forward looking as an aide who's who has lifted and has been lifted. A lot of people saying that we won't mention any names the lifters might have been at fault is more disliked.


Do you think or do you think that's a lot of bullshit fan talk or, you know, looking at yourself, why was it was proper care taken when he was taken down or was it just a freak accident and he was trying to compete?


You know what I mean? I think it's fairly easy to say, like people put it this way. If people look at all lines, all jumps, lifts, throws, whatever you want to call it like. You'll see. What the process that he went through, you'll see that repeated across numerous different teams numerous times. OK, so I think it's way too easy to cop out like that. And it was an accident, man. Like these things happen.


You can just as easily your like in another way, like you can't predict these type of injuries and. He's he's unbelievably lucky. I'm sure he's got it because, like, he's just coming to a new side and wants to make an impression and wants to get going again. And next thing, he's gone for a couple of months now, like Grace.


And you saw glimpses of how long it actually takes. Is there anyone you know that's played out over the years that has done that? Like, is there you know, I can't remember. Like, it could it could potentially be. I'm thinking now, like. Is it six months now? It could be less, I don't know, I'm I'm yeah, I agree. Yeah. If anything. Yeah. Yeah. And I get your bush anyway.


Yeah. So so like I think, look, it's disappointing for him and you know, the is a chaotic enough environment anyway so like. Yeah. And there's a lot going on there. And sometimes guys like Lemonhead there's all sorts of bad stuff. The carbon is just chaos. Everybody in general is chaos, is organized chaos. So look, I. Could could have more can be taken off, maybe, you know what I mean, but like.


You'll see that time and time again, you'll see that happening again, and you'll see it in the past with that team and with agency, that means you are going to make it seem like it is any easier just to blame someone else and go on.


But as you said, these things happen that much worse injuries happen and repeat. And it's just it's the nature of the game, you know what I mean? And Sexton, we're talking about Hinderer Faulkner.


That's that that you think that our programmers have to work and don't have to work. That's that's the best I've seen in a long time.


But mine does not look at it, you know, like forty five, fifty whatever. Forty five, whatever it is.


Well I just keep rolling, I keep texting the whole time going like are you going for the high court to get rid of the gray hairs that you like. You know he's, he's, he's, he's gone for No. The short haircuts and you know, you might be seeing him for just man to something maybe. But I thought he was class and I thought he pulled the strings I showed between him and Ringrose and Henshall. I thought all three of them showed an array of skills and deft touches that was actually quite exciting.


And Johnny showed a couple of different kicks off the different kind of shape. And we'll be off the side of the booth, down the middle and everyone reading off it as well. So everyone kind of knowing in sync, knowing, barhopping Robby did something similar. And, you know, I think you're seeing in terms of Lanzas playing anyway, you're seeing those two outside box on the floor on the fullback, acting as other receivers, stepping up and or kind of going at the back or showing an option on the right hand side of your left or vice versa.


And you're showing them and provide a lot of options. And in the fact that they're all step, it'll be playmakers more. They're probably understanding each other a lot more as well. And we saw glimpses of that. I mean, there was a lot of mistakes as well, obviously, first game and all that. But I don't know, man, I saw him. He's thirty five and he's he's looked as good as ever. And and, you know, a lot of people are doubting him coming in, committing to a line here.


I know tactically to the finish from last year and all that stuff. But like I thought, you know. Yeah exactly.


And I don't know about you, but I think he's he's thrown his name back in the hat and put himself back in conversation.


One hundred percent. You got a nice little cheeky bang off in there I once had to do to kind of a welcome to fourteen Roby.


Kind of a not a nice cheeky one about me. I'm in favor of us. Well, we won't say anything because I was kind of, you know, there was a bit of a cheeky one there.


I thought it was quite lucky.


If I'm honest, I probably was. It was, it was a penalty anyway and possibly yellow. I've seen yellow.


Yeah. And it was you didn't have a ball back. Turned around, was a cheap shot and. Employers better be careful on that because he gets targeted, Johnny gets targeted. Not everyone kind of knows that and we've all seen it most. Yeah, I gets hit a lot. And that's maybe because at times he maybe he maybe got fired up off the back of it and people thought they get into his head. I think I think that part of Johnny's mindset is probably gone.


He's learned he's grown, but he doesn't react to anything like that anymore. And Bush, yeah, he he got a bit of extra love at times. But just speaking of the line that I was just taught to follow, that combo that we talked about. Yeah. Was really, really promising a lot of unseen work, wasn't it?


Because you didn't see much of him, but you saw how much space fire was getting all of a sudden because you've got this going down the toilet trying to get you've got to deal with like, OK, yeah, I was man of the match and rightly so because the space he was getting. And it was obviously a direct result. Yeah, you know what I mean. Now I know. I know it puts maybe we don't know Joe Jacoby will be back.


But just imagine that combo since I said laxest area.


That is nice, isn't it, Wittmer as well. Yeah, well, actually, that's not a thing people forget because that's another going out like and sex and they're getting that off a shitload of abuse the last six months, whatever it is like before lockdown, saying that they weren't up to scratch, especially in the Six Nations. And they come out, the two of them I thought were fantastic. They were playing a show like, you know, a form is temporary, class is permanent.


And all the cliche like these guys, you don't just become a cliche is their only reason.


Yeah. I mean, they're in for a reason. Like mostly they kind of make a lot of sense, you know, and it was it was as easy as everyone says it is, they'd all be doing it, but they're not right. And but I thought, look, I just the glimpses we were seeing from that combo, I was a crew, I tell you, like, you know, there's not a lot like monster unbelievable class now to stay in the game with the injuries they got on very early in the game.


And then the fact they were down to the seven boards last quarter, I think it's kind of have to come in there and like it. They showed real unity one as well, like, you know, early effort at the end to get back in the game. Some fish again, that was some like is when it comes to Winger's, he's up there with the very best in terms of just what finishes. He always does that. People just don't give him the credit first because, you know, you know, my heart is finished in that situation.


He's he's got speed. He's got strength. He will go around you end up box. I've seen him turn guys inside out I train. If you ever saw the training videos and Times is actually piracy's players. He's a he's another guy that is. He's he's really working on his craft at this stage of his career, like he's still working on his craft. I should say, at this stage of a career, which is really encouraging today. And that's an unbelievable example.


So, you know, come back to the Munster side of things like that, that combination. They have the center now. And if they can potentially open their game up a little bit with the forwards and, you know, just come away a little bit more from the one off running, they did a little bit too much of that in my perspective or want to watch.


A lot of people are saying that to me, it's the old ones away. And it kind of started off more promising. But they kind of I think more monster got frustrated.


They automatically revert to this one out runner thing saying, yeah, but the thing is, it's a catch 22. So they were doing a time. They just did too much, right? Yeah. But at times they did it really well and they actually condensed it, severed a line and created a two sided attack like a 70, 30 or 80, 20 the field and condense Leinster in. And then they'd throw a pass out the back and and express it to the edge and get the as you get put Lenzer under pressure and or free up space for a foul to crash over something.


And it's just that they do it a little bit. I felt like they did it a little bit too much. And that's kind of the ones where I saw your tweet in the most tender. He was he was pretty impressed, especially over the ball. But yeah, look, I thought he was quite otherwise, if I'm honest, yeah, but I thought over the ball he was he was he was like, he's a block of a man like I mean, like, I can't remember what I saw.


I don't know why he is these days, but this block for man. So like, if he gets over the ball, he's going to be hard to move. And he did it really well. He just showed really good speed and flexibility and ready. That's the thing about coaches. It's more of a. You've got to see it, huh? You always have to see it start happening and get in straight away, because the minute it's happening, it's too late.


What did you make a dance at? Six. He was like he was good.


I thought he had a he had a good game, but like. You know, didn't didn't set the world I was more impressed by Baird, if I'm honest, and I thought I thought there was a lot of classy like took this one overhead cut running backwards. And I thought he showed and what he showed a really good variety in his game for that James Lowe try sex and brings to light and goes out to buy kids their catches coming out of the line and he just takes his time.


It seems simple, but like for a big second role, he was going to like it back. It was like John gave away and just I thought he showed and. You know, he showed a lot of class for what was his first kind of Derby game, I think Kayla would be OK, he'd be satisfied. Would he want to do better? Potentially.


And then I thought Jack Koenen and let everyone know how quick he is and how strong is particularly off the base is like I was telling the lads around here, like, it's just like the bakra, like so many options.


It's pretty. Yeah. But it's I couldn't really interesting what happens over the next year or two because like you've got now you got Max Degan who was on the bench, Jack Cowan and you've done he looks like he's going to come back. You've got Scott, you got Josh, you've got and Kayla Darris Jack on there. We haven't even mentioned restruck.


I think Levie coming back is the big one. But would you be worried a small bit with the injury you had because it was so bad? Will it affect him in any way when he comes back?


I don't know. What do you think? I don't know. I think he'll like. I think he'll. Maybe it has had a little bit in the first game, but like you got to remember, he had tested that. Yeah, try training the whole time. Like, if I'm honest, someone answers training sessions right now, probably harder in games like they do. They stretch the intensity in training so that they can they can do it in games, you know, I mean, they pushed it.


You're able to push it more in training from a from a controlled environment, you know what I mean? And plus, because you have the numbers and stuff and you can you can you can you can make it.


So you make it over here like this before saying, like, he kind of likes to push the players to a level that's even more difficult than the match so that when you get at the weekend, you're actually have to step into Forcier because you've been in fifth gear all week and it kind of makes the process easier. Is that how it works? Yeah, like I see it like like, yeah.


Like I mean, that's it's pretty easy to get the numbers of what it actually looks like now. Now, that's still not factoring in like the emotional energy that you need for something and and what that takes. And that's another thing altogether. Bush. After basic numbers about, you know, like meters per Menasche collisions, high speed meters that you got to reach and the volume and minutes and all that, so you can take all that data and go, right, let's let's create that in training.


And that's what they call it Tuesdays, because it's mostly on a Tuesday that he tells us. And then he goes out for another four lots because a flat out bulletin board, you think he'll go on line.


So I know she'll be going like that, but I think he'll do it or be like, OK, so Leinster. Don, I think the opposite, like if you think about it's actually perfect, he's not that he's not the head coach and the season would be done by then. He's not international coach currently. So, like, it doesn't affect. Anything. Yeah, know what I mean? Does he have the bandwidth to do it a hundred percent?


You got to remember that he's not he's not international coach. She has to return to six nations to help out as well. And I know he'll be doing that anyway. And I think he would be an unbelievable addition to the players to have him. There he is. Look, I say this often, you know, Joe on him, our two best players or two of us coaches I ever had and you know, he I like to say, like Joe made me.


Joe may be an unbelievable professional and then sure came in, made me a better player. Yeah, I guess you just see Joe as a man to man go, you're saying? And I'm sure it is just an incredible coach. Is different, different, different types, just different philosophies, like one star is controlled, controllable. The other is control and chaos. But they actually still come from both teachers, like they come from a very and their philosophies might be a bit different, but their actual methods are very similar.


And but I don't think you could have one without the other. So I don't think you need that foundation that you created. And he needs the foundation of Checa created. Yeah. And and Stuart needed the foundation at the top. And he's kind of reaping the rewards from, you know, they changed the culture first. They got rid of a lot of players that were and concerts in the squad and and then transform what it meant to play for Lansat and Joe built on top of that and transform the way Leinster played, I suppose, in the way the players play.


And then sure came in and had this really solid foundation of really cool prose, consistent, really strong values organizationally, really strong culture, and this like production line of players and kind of, you know, has put the cream on top and Joe will go back into culture.


I've been to him every so often to the city and I keep saying things like, I don't believe Robert, you don't yet, but I don't believe it. I'd love to say I'd love to say I'd love to see it because I just think. I think, look, a lot of people are disappointed with Arnon's not doing better in the World Cup, and they kind of I think people kind of took it out on Joe a little bit and which I thought was unfair and.


You know, he got to remember, like, he changed that expectation that you, the people had of that are in Jersey under. What they're doing in their expectation had to do in the World Cup. Yeah, and. And when you look back, I think people now they've got a bit of distance where they realize, oh, I keep with iron alone loan, he brought like three championships.


Yeah, it's number one in the world. I mean, people forget that like that not too long ago, like, I know, technically won a grand time, which I put before that, like our Triple Crown was like the bee's knees for her and like what we want to fight for grown. Do you know what I mean? Before that, it was like trying not to get the fucking wooden spoon. I don't think people like Farrakhan, especially in such a short amount of time.


I know that he took over. He took over, what, two thousand and forty thirteen. Fourteen. Yeah. And. Got no one in the world, you beat every top tier nation and in the world and had never been done by 19 and they won a series in Australia, no one beats in Africa and in South Africa for the first time, they won the series. There are two and done and want to win three championships, you know, one of the a grand slam and short memories.


You know, I was kind of expectations got too high and I know what I saw here.


Look, I'm curious. I'm curious to hear from you. Like, what's your take on on how and how the monster are going to pan out?


As I said to you, I was a little disappointed. I thought there was a little too much Karradah all monster way one out runners. You know, I said at times they got expensive. At times they look to move the ball. And when they did, look what I thought. As good as Murray was Craig Casey for those last ten minutes, I'm not saying drop Murray instead of Casey, but I would have given Casey twenty minutes as I thought what he did in those last ten minutes, how he spent the game up, it was phenomenal.