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Gibson Park, hello, little guy up there, James Low over Igoe, terrific finish from low. Seventy seven minute here, shall I go again? No way through for capital burns, just under so dangerous, so difficult to stop and so strong from Jermain Herzog.


Hello and welcome to Episode nine of the Up and Under Podcast, Brought to you by Robillard. As always, make sure you subscribe to us on whichever podcast platform you're using. And if you get a chance, please do go on and give us a rating. Another jam packed episode for you this week. As always, myself and Jamie will look back on the pro 14 action. We're going to be looking ahead to the Challenge Cup and Champions Cup finals this weekend and taking a look at Andy Phials, 34 Hedeman Ardern squad for the remaining Six Nations games.


We'll also be chatting about Joe Smith's new wardrobe role and the cracker of a Test match the weekend between Australia and New Zealand in the Bledisloe Cup. And we'll also be chatting to former Ireland announcer Senator Gordon Darcy following his rugby players Ireland Hall of Fame induction, as well as a really interesting chat with current Ireland international calendars. Jodie Qalat. On the loop could pass. It's a little insight passed back to George Clooney on the sly to carry a movie for three days.


I'll finish and an should wrap things up for them. All right.


So, Jamie, how are you getting on? So treatments for various problems over the weekend and we didn't go to level five.


Not bad. I don't know what's the bigger success? I'm kind of siding with the latter rather than the former. If I'm honest and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's it's it was an interesting weekend. And, you know, I just kept seeing the sport in line and everything just kind of panned out from it. And coming into Europe now I'm coming into the internationals and stuff like that and talking to one or two of the guys and then having to go into bubbles and all this sort of stuff.


And I was like, oh, this is going to become like like the NBA was, you know what I mean? And although slightly paid a little bit differently and what it's like and who's going to be the LeBron James of our iron team over the next couple of weeks? I feel it's a show, but there's lots of opportunity there.


I mean, like I mean, kicking it off. If you look at the games of the weekend, like Italy, you know a lot like the betting on Lanser game. Right. I would looking at it, it's not bad on us that we ride it off every time because like when I think about it, that's like Lanser have you lost the game over there before? We've had one or two struggles before and and they've taken a couple of scalps along the way.


And so I was like, it's not bad enough that we're writing them off so much. And I credit to them, are they getting better, isn't working. And then looking at Lanser, I was like, OK, you know, they did. Was it was it Lance had been bad or was it being good or a bit of both? Bit of what I would say, I disappointed normal defense like those charges, or very much shouldn't, unless it was to them anyway that I probably shouldn't be let in.


And that does not bode well for Ireland, because that is kind of an area that's one we're always supposed to be good at, maybe more so an attack. But to one area that we're kind of struggling and recently this kind of power and physicality. And, yeah, there's there's a lot more physical teams out there. Penitentiaries, all that much.


Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're right in that regard. Like, that was the takeaway that I had that like God, you know, in fairness to kind of not that they did what Sirees did, but they. They tried to slow the tempo down to a certain degree and get physical, which actually was like, oh, oh, this is making inroads. And that would be, like you said, worryin like and I'm sure like. You have your answer now.


What are you going to do? Cause you're going to go for malls, you're going to go try and get them into an arm wrestle and see what happens and. You know, which is not exactly well, I'll give you an answer, you know, it's coming anyway, so that's that's one thing. But, you know, it's it's one thing. No what's coming and it's not going to stop it. Yeah, but it was there were some highlights.


Look, I don't is this is the madness of it. They still walk away with a win. And bonus point went like, well, I feel sorry for the last two weeks in a row now.


They're like poor adults are poor transuranic. You didn't even get bonus points, not zero point. You feel sorry for them. You do like. Almost, almost, almost. Well, I take takeaways like a Gibson paid very well again, he's going to he's justifying that violence cos he's fantastic on the weekend.


I tell you what, you remember we talked about nines and how I always thought is pretty good to have nines with two different styles. And I think let's say you had more and and James, because I think James and Acuity are kind of similar and probably more similar than, say, Clooney and Murray. And so it adds another nice mix to it. And look, look, ground loses from that point of view. And but I think it's you know, James, anything has been available for such Fernand's for nearly a year now.


And so it's great to see him get the call.


He's a very dynamic player and the Cataegis partner or something that you kind of remind you of attacking SCRUMHALF that likes to play the ball as well. And it's not cheap and it'll pass. I mean, I saw at one stage I thought it was the first try. He actually on second thought of it was he got involved in the ball. It was actually him that pushed and had it wasn't corduroy over the line. So he actually got stuck in in there as he likes to get involved where he can around the pitch, which is good.


Yeah. And like he's like you said, he's got a lot of speed about him and he's always looking to play like he's not looking. He's he's actually looking to force the speed of the tempo as opposed to, oh, let's have control. It's like tough shit, let's get playing lots. And and if you're not there, I'm going to have a go or and he's trying a lot of new things. He's obviously been given a lot of. A lot of rope to try to play with, you know what I mean, in terms of the variety of things that he's trying out, which is really it's exciting to see.


And and I think we'll make a nice side because I still think murder will start. But I think we'll make a nice option of, OK, you know, it's not as straight as having Marin County as it might have been over the last while. And it's a bit more like, oh, OK. You know, we've got a very different style down here. And you could say that as well with, you know, James Lowe as well.


I think he had another another Balthrop a game and he becomes available. He becomes available in November. Yeah. So I like I again, I think he's you know, that was not a highlight from the game. And I think, you know, bringing those to in. I think he is always there. He's training, but he's not obviously available until whenever the next Autumn Games are due.


I think we will have to deal with people given out. No, again, I don't know. I wish that something would get over that. Like you'll have your mourners and complain and say, oh, I agree with Chuck it over, but going to have your mourners. Campaigners are going, oh, look, taken an Irish Paris bus.


That's going to be it. There's going to be certain news that President Obama those headlines again yourself, every time I go, he gets called off. So you've got to come in and know in the next few weeks.


Yeah, but like I mean, you just look back. I mean, what I always do. And how long is Lloyd-Jones? Five years. No. Now, three years sorry, he got in just before, yeah, just before the change was not. Yeah, yeah, and they've changed a lot. Like the three to five years now, right? So I'm sorry, I'm all for that that change. And yeah, I think I think that's a fair change and it's a fair commitment.


I think three years you could probably argue that point of. Is it a real commitment by the AMA? And it just kind of taken an opportunity and to come over again, international cap and whatever and use that. But I think five years is a big commitment and so that's the right call. But at the same time, you walk down my throat and High-Spirited anywhere right now, you won't see anyone, but if you know what I mean. But if you would walk down the high street now, Ireland's a different place.


So people have that kind of attitude like, you know, I'm sorry, you're hanging on to some old thinking or belief there that just is not right and is just not fit for purpose, you know, is not fit for for a lot of modern. Are this. Yeah, look, I mean, occupied prior to knocking, I'm sure, and you saw a lot of guys come true that worked came true to residents who, while you were there, I'm sure they weren't treated any differently to a party on the road that came from the school.


Seemed like it's all the same that, you know, are good enough underbody team and you don't look at their nationality or skin color or anything like that. And that's the way it should be. Do you know what I mean? Like in any office job, like you could be walking next to someone from New Zealand or Australia or Pakistan or whatever it is.


You know, I know I represent the country and is different, but I look at the best team in the world, New Zealand. I mean, it's Samoans, Tongans, bloody.


Do you know what I mean? Some of our best players have come from the island nations like they are clever enough to bring them in younger. They bring they take them from the schools.


But in fairness, now that five year thing does does make it. But you have to make investment in this person. That person has to commit to the investment as well, you know what I mean? So let's say that's the right that's the right change. But sorry. Yeah, but they would be the highlights from that and Lamar's injury that's worrying us.


I mean, that's a bit of a low note. And we don't know obviously what happens. It looks like he was in a bit of pain. He was on the magic pen, as I like to call it, after and pretty quickly and. So he was we'll see obviously what happens there, but you'd like to think he'd be OK.


But again, we just don't I don't know whether or not the Irish team, Andre Osprey's, An All-Star Game, I call that wrong. Like I honestly thought, because I've seen our surprise last week. I think I don't think I don't think I gave all that our fair due after seeing Bannatyne now against again, that would actually work outside alongside outsmarts to Goodwins Maddigan. Most impressive. Obviously you have to take the fact Henderson got it right. That's bad news for art.


And you look like he's going to get bonder stock. That was good at fifteen potentially. Maybe that's he's going to take a lot more spot. But overall isn't it a good start.


It's great when overall like I mean yeah it's this point. Like, honey, I think um, what's his name? Turnbull got three weeks for something similar. So he's probably looking at not getting the end of the six nations and which is disappointing for him. And then, you know, it's probably really disappointing is that you're giving someone else an opportunity. Yeah. And the same with the Lahmar thing, you know, I mean, I was injured, but like Stockdale's get a chance or Daly might get a chance or you go might get a chance at fifteen now you know what I mean.


Or Conway or something like that, you know what I mean. Versus and same in the second row like this. For a while there didn't seem like a lot of competition. And out of nowhere in the second row, competition is heating up here. Robert Baer, to go to the next, you'd be more worried.


If you are Henderson, you will be right because of what's there, which paired with Togba and Face and or Turner is gonna do some good second there for him. And he hasn't been tied to two.


You mentioned like bird and bird like two really, really, really dynamic and second rows. And if you think about like we don't have huge players so if we don't have huge players, go for speed and dynamism is about to move people around and trust our footballing ability. And those who guys have lots in that and handy has it as well. But like, you don't want to be given that opportunity to someone else. And that's from a purely selfish point of view.


It's great, as we talked about last week, developing that pipeline of players and giving different people experiences to to build it up for the World Cup in in three years time or whatever, two and a half years time. And it's great in that regard. But again, another good win from from Austar and seeing and seeing some young players get get more exposure in against a good side. Yeah, exactly.


Cannot disappointed with that. No. Like I actually called Connect to win that game because Cardiff didn't look great in the first game semiarid and was going to come around if I was good like 60 minutes before they got that Troy like they were pulling out of the game quickly, like they just they kind of they knew how to play them. And I shot him down very early on.


Yeah. And that's kind of it's disappointing because Konica are showing nice glimpses, aren't they applying a very wide expanse of game and not really getting anywhere with it. And over the weekend and we kind of really like we need all the provinces play the kind of person very nicely and seen. And I think it's great that we're playing these kind of different styles to a certain degree in the plane with the players they have. But we want all the styles to kind of be working so we can pull the best bits into the national team.


And so it's disappointing to see it shut down as easily as it assists as it was. And and yeah, I'm like you. I was kind of barcoded away with saying just the way, you know, a bit of a deadlock at the end of the day, like, you know what I mean, just the way you hope was just a blip because there were all good.


And we can, you know, just a blip in that. They want to watch much and move on and get a bit of break now. And I would hope it's just a bit of a dip and nothing more.


Yeah, look, I mean, it's the thing is as well, you've got to remember, you know, we've all played a couple of games already, you know what I mean? It's a bit of a stop start kind of nature to it. So it is difficult to get momentum finish. And let's hope that it's just like you said, it's just like a blip. No doubt the players Monday morning straight away into it and assassinating what worked, what didn't work.


But I kind of I don't know, like some of the players kind of really excite me this and this year so far. So I kind of want to see them really kick on and I want to see that the clock kick on. If I'm honest, I reckon they'll have a good season.


One star left it late again.


I was actually at the game my first game, and when I was more excited, I was going to Taxidriver and it was like, no, no, I'm going to distract him from his moment.


He's having had about twenty people in the zone.


And Kamara, what was it? I like to see game in person and then be beaten and decided it was a much more like a training session than a game. It was weird.


It was very strange. It's hard to explain. Like you kind of when you come in. First of all, you got to go downstairs. You go. Get your temperature checked. You got to sign in and selling out and you even have to give you a press pass back at generally you get one going to keep. You have to check it in and check it out. And then you just kind of get all shot up into this straight into your no media, no coffee, no sandwiches.


I think the sandwich is probably killed you almost. It is absolutely killer. Killer. And you normally get dinner done on Champions Cup days. Like we're not going to get that this year to share.


But I'm not like you get up there and like and, you know, you hear everything kind of you hear every face, you can hear every call, you can hear every pint, every roar, like I've said, the Edinburgh suburbs. And yet they were sold out. They were like having 200 fans in the corner roar. And I'd scream and there were very loud. So I kind of they actually brought a bit atmosphere, but I did not like you can see how like it didn't feel like it was a home game for Munster.


So you can see how going forward that there is going to be a lot more surprise results because what did we do?


We talk about that event in the quarterfinals. Not like how how it doesn't. I'm talking to some players. Yeah, exactly. Weird man. It is not like like a home game and it's not. And when you're playing away, it's like it's not like an away game. I don't know, like you've been at home, like home park.


You like the atmosphere inside is incredible luck. And what I mean, playing against Monster and Tomac, I'm sure it's difficult like having that crowd in your back because they are very loud.


Well, yeah. Well they let you know about it. Yeah. They let you know that. Yeah, exactly.


But when you take that away then all of a sudden as you said, it's just to try and imagine it's just a match. It's got to be a neutral venue like you've seen it in the soccer tournament. Look at some of the results in soccer at the moment. Villa beaten Liverpool seven to back and Spurs Hammer. And, you know, it's like you're going to see that, I think, in rugby and in soccer all season because you're taken out at home advantage.


And they're literally it's if they're in a neutral stadium under this plan.


And did you did anything surprise, you know, like in terms of what you were hearing calls the communication and the language being used, sledging, if there was any sledging you, what surprised you? Yeah, the usual kind of stuff.


You hear lots. And I'm not in any trouble. But it wasn't. It wasn't, you know what I mean? Kind of an affair. Like, it wasn't a big rivalry. But like from the defense side of things, you really learn to appreciate Edinburgh's defence. And people kind of might complain that once you couldn't get a trophy, but Jesus Christ, the sound of the hits and how fast they get up off the line and you can really hear that and really get into it when it's there's no one there and it's just up.


And you can hear him shout and shout. And they're they're always getting back on their line and they're always getting up there were that made a huge difference. And you can see that they were shot monster down every single time. And the communication between the players and Edmonds Defence Cockerill has them well drilled.


But there's if there's one thing he's going to do, it's going to have a side. They're basically done really well. And I mean, they led to most of the game. Right. And once you kind of pulled it in and it's 77 percent or something like that to try.


I thought, no, we're going to do it again, was that two years in a row one way, but in fairness and luckily kept open and shut this down again to do the job. But I don't know. Like, are we seeing. Better play or not, better play from four months or. I think it's hard to kind of take anything from that game because No. One, they had to grow their coronavirus case on the Monday.


Sorry. You're right. Yeah. Like I mean, in fairness, not disruption, the amount of disruption to how I was reading, like he had to announce it for the first time on a Thursday or Friday morning on teams.


Oh, yeah, it was I actually asked him that question I was talking to overnight of an interview afterwards. I was like, you know, how did you God, how did you how did you manage it yourself? So basically, like, they had to shut down trading on Monday. Their media session got canceled on Tuesday. I think the only trend I got to captain on, I think is only going into the end. So then you got to completely change a team like Alex McKenry inside the center.


So obviously, some of it was selection. Some of it was there were some of these guys that were pretty close contact, didn't want Starcom. So they last probably 10 senior players. Then you're playing against and hadn't had a Scottish back line and it's still blowing out of the back. So you can't really complain then.


Sorry, then that's a massive only when you say it like that.


Now I knew, but I didn't realize it at first. Let's turn us up and go. Hang on a second. That's a huge win.


It's actually a massive achievement because, you know, we talked about this, about bringing through like they've had some really, really good high quality underage players for the under 20 to come through and kind of waiting to see them come through and massive opportunity for the lead, you know what I mean? Just bring them through and give them an opportunity and great test. They kind of stand up and be counted and which which they did, and then have the sounds to stay in the fight all the way to the end.


And then, you know, C.J. does what C.J. does, which is get over to get in line and, you know, stand up when and when, when wants, need and delivers. Yeah.


I like to your role there at halfback. And Craig Casey was phenomenal as well. Multichannels. Yeah. Yeah. And deservedly so.


Like, when you watch him, you know, it's you see a lot more when you're at the game. I just see him his speed ball, he's he's he's kind of everywhere. He kind of loves he loves to get involved. He's straight up on his feet. He's one thing I remember saying. I was talking to the the Edinburgh comms guy next to me and I think it was three, three three and a roll was two and then one and one.


But there's three in total were at Monster. What a penalty for how you tackle OKC oxes. What is he, five foot four, five, four, three. Every single time it's impossible to get loans. So that's something like it's almost like a weapon going forward because you can't tackle him lol.


Well I only think like I mean it's kind of like running backs in the NFL, right. Yeah, exactly. Small stuff. I was like if they have, if he's talking loads is like small players on a rugby team, it could be hard to get like, like you said, because he plays with such tenacity and ferocity as well that he might pick off the base.


He just wanted you and you spot a gap. What? There's no paladar. You've no choice. You will get you the human body can't get that low that fast.


So you're trying to get him and all of a sudden, bang, you take his hat off. And so they got three penalties out of like, that's great. Now we can stick this guy out if anyone if your penalties he's going to like.


So I mean, in terms of what we were talking about before, like I mean, I think we both agree we're kind of changing a tune to a certain degree in terms of an. And turn in a bit of a corner or or could be turning a corner down the line with this pipeline coming through.


Yeah, that's like that's something like that huge like Fine-grained address that at his first press conference, like before the season started. This is the year that we do plan on bringing these guys through and not just bring it on for the sake of paying them because they actually can step up and are good enough to play and even play in Europe. So he's sure not now with Casey. He showed up with Ben Healy. John had to come off the bench as well, John.


That was very good. He is an absolute lunatic of a tackler. He launches himself like a torpedo headfirst into his ankles every single time. That's another thing.


What is with these new fellows and the way that they're like rock?


It's not like he's not the biggest albatross, but he's young. And you know yourself, like when you first came onto the scene, you're not going to be in Vegas in a couple of years and depression again a couple years ago. And you're going to you're going to bulk up. You're going to meet up. You're going to get a bigger boat. He's a guy, I think, to what to watch out for. Yeah, well, that's that's the technique, that's that's not something that's pure technique, so it'll only get better.


Ireland flying out is secured, Rory, back to Paul O'Connell and it's back with best again. The crowds shout, he and Ireland try to organize themselves. Ferris at the front and France do a good job of disrupting. Now can the bull come back on the Irish side it can. And Paul Hunters and Driver. A few yards forward and Conoco Callahan looks to the referee as if to say, why won't the ball come back? Now we have this and now we go.


And Wallace offers his considerable power and strength to inch Ireland closer to the French line, six meters away, four meters away, as I launch another effort at its best. To fera to OLeary, Darsey Stanton, a random. How the third try in the afternoon and the night for the man who had the guts of 12 months on the injury bench. Next up, our chat with former Leinster on Ireland Center, Gordon Darcy, following his induction into the Hall of Fame.


Hi, Gordon. First of all, congrats on being inducted into the Hall of Fame.


Very good. Thank you. Your son from school conformed to arguably Ireland's greatest ever center partnership. But for many years following your retirement, I really struggled in that position. But he says now we're pretty flush with the likes of Henshall Ringrose. Acky fired McClosky. If you're Andy Undefiled right now, we are two starting centres.


Yeah, I guess it's as you said, it's kind of spoilt for choices and then too young to songbooks up north and start to look at peace as well with Stewart-Moore and then you start to come through.


And so at the moment, I think it's hard to look past with what he's doing context at the moment. So he kind of gets that gets the mainstay, I'd say. And you're kind of building off around that Chris Farrell for not playing the last in the last week or so to try and put his case forward and carry Ringrose skippering, skippering Leinster probably looks like he'll probably get the nod. So Anarky Guy Ringrose centre partnership with possibly Henshall being able to cover the multiple positions in the from the bench.


Looking back now, Gordon, as a Hall of Famer, did you growing up, did you idolize any senators or look to model your game on anyone?


Well, no, because I started as a hooker and so I was kind of actually I met my coach, who was my underworlds coach in school, and he said he reminds me. So even though he played as a hooker, I used to get my hands strapped like Campisi.


So that's kind of go back to there's lots of people listening to this might up to Google who their keyboard would have been. The inspiration that I would have modeled an awful lot of my game on when I was playing at that age.


And eventually it came to a head when I watched frustration from my coach at the at the time, he said, listen, if you're going to stay out at 15 like Keith would, you might as well be become the 15.


So that's that's that's where I get that. I turn to I turn to Centre Court and Mason.


So I was like a career change around twenty three and just by Brian's injured. We need to do it. We need to stop gap thirty.


That's an interesting one. I don't know, probably a tough question. Looking back over the years, you've had not a big test games, a lot of big club games. Can you can you single out any one sentence? You know, was your your toughest opposition you've ever come up against?


Very easy to stay with young Xiaojian from France and not on to absolute bulldozer's and shiogama, just like it's just incredible. So hard to stop the offloading ability crownsville so much off around him. Six for probably seventeen stone just really. And then you've got nine on the same height as me. Sixteen, sixteen. So and I just I think probably the most complete centre in the modern game.


Moving on to current affairs, Gordon, what would you consider a success for undefiled over the next few weeks with those two games against Italy and France in the Six Nations?


I think two wins and it's going to be a it's going to be a success.


That's what they've got to target the you know, do you think you think regardless of what happens, we have enough quality in the in that squad to get through the Italy game?


I think this is an opportunity. It's that disrupted momentum and going into the French game, I think that could play into our into our hands. We'll have that game with other to try a few things. I think it's maybe it's time to see the see the best of my cash. And all we need is one something one little nugget of the of a I suppose a play to take to get and create maybe a score or two and then build a strong defense, I think.


Yeah, we definitely have to be targeting to to win. I'm not so concerned around performance. I think that's something that can be developed over time. The media is and always has been the the system in Ireland is that we need to win, we need to win games. So I think this is a good opportunity for Ireland to win two two games on the bounce.


Gordon, just on this whole power game debate that's been around it on the last few weeks in terms of the English teams against the Irish teams, that's somebody going a not massively.


I think it is very cyclical against that, against England. And they have a very abrasive coach and they are a reflection of him as a coach.


And it is very hard to deal with that because you need to be able to absorb an awful lot of pressure, an awful lot of defence.


And you still need to be able to. Attack. So we've been in this, like England's English rugby has not changed dramatically in 20 years.


They still build an awful lot of what they do and have always done it on a very, very physical template. And we've found ways to deal with it before. And I've no doubt we'll find ways to deal with it again. And you have to you have to stand back. And you also have to be you know, there's some things you can control or some things you can't control. They are very tight knit group of players. They're not traditionally getting in their own way, which sometimes English teams do.


They are playing well, they are motivated and they are good players. And so that puts a new challenge to this group of players but want to think they're capable of and capable of dealing with.


And as a coach and as the coaching set up, I have to think a little bit differently because Ireland's like you never go into a game trying to nullify its team or trying to play so much fire with fire.


Like if you go in trying to, like, go into an overly physical, confrontational game against England, you're going to lose because we're that's not our strength to be playing a game on there on a on a field that suits their strengths. Ireland needs to find we need to understand them and hone and focus on what their strengths are. And these two games will be very important for us going into the games further afield. Where do we make England uncomfortable on our pitch?


And that has to be the as always, been when we've been successful against England is we've been able to play our game and stop our game plan.


So, yeah, England have had the role of the green in the last two or three encounters. But like we've had probably 10 years of fairly consistent victories over the so that those doesn't go and they wouldn't you could easily class them as being physically bigger than at that time. And so I think a lot will come down to how we approach the games more so than anything else, I suppose.


Finally, Gordon, just looking back, I suppose on your career with Leinster in Ireland, any moment you can kind of look back on and go, yeah, you know, I'll never forget that.


So it would Leinster, I think like this. It's like I played a very long I played three different decades, really, and three different groups of people. And one of the things I love from it is that I have such a. Such an incredible group of friends coming off the back of us and I think winning in Murrayfield with that group of players of Leinster, because there was such an attritional process to get Leinster from where they were to winners, you know, guys like Reggie Corrigan, Victor Costello, shamberg, Dennis Saiki that never got to win a trophy with and were so instrumental in what we did as a as a as an organization.


So sharing that with the likes of Shane Horgan and Malcolm Oakley and Johnny Sexton and guys like this was just so important and that it helped start what is now become the kind of a legacy. So that one moment in Leinster was was really, really important for me. And the next two are pretty much in range with them with Leinster.


Sorry. And finishing. Finishing. So with the two thousand nine six nations coming off the bench against France was a huge moment for me personally because my career had been in the balance for 12 months with operations and various different. Was it going to get back? Was not going to get back. And, you know, three surgeries on my arm and there was an awful lot. Would it be the same player coming back and everything to scoring that try and against France and then eventually going on to win the win?


The Six Nations was huge. A huge moment for me. And I don't have much rugby paraphernalia or memorabilia or whatever you call in the house. But that's. That moment when your pals are picking you up off the ground and there you could see in their eyes how much it meant obviously for me, and then I'm obviously screaming my head off as well. So you can see this was a lovely picture. A picture says a thousand words. And so you could see people just delighted for me.


But then also we've won the match and the Grand Slams still.


And so huge amount of emotion in a very in in a in a in a split second is is what is definitely one my favorite ones. And then playing. We lost much in the Avivah against Scotland and the warm of the 2015 World Cup and I knew it was done. And Bush the real we played second part that day, like with almost a my daughter was at that game and she's only got my April. So May, June, July, August, three and a half months old at that stage.


And so she got to come to one of my games and that was quite nice. That was quite special because deep down I knew that was my last game and was kind of a lovely metaphor. For whatever reason, to have my daughter out of the future was the future was there as well.


And it's a lovely moment. Tiergarten, thanks. Appreciate it. Because by Alex Aposhian along the Tembisa line now that Chip had in fact Attala always managed to take it, gets it away to Russia and Russia, have to score on the race for the final on and catch that. Oh that just might be one of the greatest moments in history. Right, so onto the Challenge Cup and finals this weekend. Does anyone really care of a challenge like. Well, I do, because I like Bristol.


I like Bristol, like you can't help us normally. No offense to Epcot. Like normally I would give a shit about it, like and I don't really watch it.


I hear you talking to. We played them all. You won one, actually, didn't you?


Yeah, that's what I remember. I remember going in and I remember when I was the biggest ever like in the community or something.


Exactly what you just did there.


You just did not like know it's something to win, I suppose, but I think it'd be good to watch this weekend. I know they got blown away against Ficken against last weekend, probably Jack Willis absolutely murdered them.


But like, it's going to be a good match to watch because like Pat, I like the whole Bristol model. I like what they've done. All I could have come from. I absolutely love watching Roger play. He is just a freak of nature. Hopefully they'll have power back. So I think it might be one of the first and and we all love to see TULLEN lose. So I think it's fun to see he's only one to four and it's got my I'm actually going to sit down and enjoy much kind of why don't to go on a Friday evening during the Friday night as well.


Have a couple of tennis. Happy days. That is.


There you go. Chill out but until the real game. So now I don't know if you've changed your tone or if or what story, but I changed my tone. I think you go first, OK?


Because these come hard. I mean, regardless what I said. Yeah, I think, you know what it what everything was embarrassing. I would like to have that problem with it. It had a couple of guys test positive, so they had a bit of a kind of an abscess to run up. You know, I don't know how much is a factor, but it made them sort things out and it made them miss a game, which is hopefully game time, as you just I mean, especially the way the season is at the moment.


And it's all kind of all over the shop. And then watch in Exeter over the weekend. I mean, the only way you can beat Exeter is by not letting them into your twenty two, because when they get into your twenty two it's a try. Forget about it. They are so ruthless and so efficient every single time they pull you over the line. And I just don't think, I think it's a.


There are good plan 90 like there, like we talked about it in terms of Saracen's, we like they have to have that like that arm wrestle and believe that Saracen's have. But then at the same time, I think they have a bit more within in the game, a bit more and. Footballing belief as a way to describe it in terms of how they test you with their with the way they play and I and. But make no doubt about it, once it gets nine twenty two, they're keeping that ball and they're going to grind you down.


And the minute you condense your line or overhaul or do something really basic because you're just trying to take on this wall of players coming at you, Dale added up and just used our speed and the back line skill to to exploit it, basically push if any team can pull it off. And if any team doesn't need a whole lot of opportunity, it's Rassi. Yeah, no, I agree with Joe. And then you've got finals tectonic throwing us off in order to give them a bit of ballast into forwards.


That's going to draw you guys and keep them like they.


Yeah, I mean, I'm trying to remember what we were saying time.


I was kind of I was you know, I was kind of thinking to myself, maybe Rossignol, can I talk like with the way rosellas plane and walked away from was plane and Zeppos had a couple of good games and I was like, oh, you've got guys like Farhatullah, you've got Teddy. Tom.


I was like, you know, like you've got amazing players. Don't get me wrong. Do they have the forward to answer the question like he's doorknocker on and off and look around the rest of the pack.


I know they've got what's his name?


It's the hooker and it's coming to us from chat with the NEC guys that came. And I had to have a couple of go back rolls in there as well. But like, Exeter's pack is incredible. And then they can almost Matamata Bartolome, which, you know, with some of the some of the guys I know. I think. I think Jack. Noella. Yeah, but you guys like Henry Slade and so they're Simmons is absolutely class. The order number is like a centerin himself.


Like they can they can match pretty much authority. Hogg is playing the best role of his life at the moment. He's he's he's really come on, he got a good one of games, got over his injuries, he said it himself. He put on a bit of weight and he kind of trimmed down. He's he is just scoring trophies for four now. He's finally reached his potential, I think.


But I he's he's better remember when he when he, like you broke into the scene? When I kind of broke on scene with on lines where I'm 2013 and I don't like to be honest. I like waiting. Yeah. Waiting to see what going to do. But he just seemed like he's going to class.


You know, he's like you said, like you were on. I told him, you know, how people like there was a reason he was on that horse all along because people were talking. This guy, obviously this guy is the next big thing, but he's taking his time. He said only what does he know, like 26 or 27 or something like that?


He's not all like he should just talk about. I said he had a bit he had problems, an injury. He kind of has finally found his feet. Now you're in Exeter. I think you're finally seeing these story that we're all expected to see.


I know. But then again, he did win a couple of six nations of are there only a couple of years ago, he won one or two years in a row. So he did have what he said.


He's really reached his potential at the moment. And if he keeps if you keep ticking on.


Yeah, I think, look, um, I'm still probably going to side at Extra and yeah, I'm going right there now.


I think I'm going to I'm I'm I'm Flip Championship.


Oh, I still want Ross. Yeah, that's the thing I, I think Rasim playing more, they're more exciting to watch. And particularly, we've seen Russell on the field, and I have no doubt that he's going to pull he's going to have a couple of magical moments. It's just the case that they're going up against the side. It's like this is like a real steady shit, like, you know what I mean? And, you know, you got to remember, science is doing their job on on on on Rasim, except for that moment of brilliance at the end, rousing kind of stayed in the fight.


So it could be really interesting to see if they if they can do that again and if they can can hold back and the extra tide come in. Yeah.


So I will say heart was racing.


Edward Exeter rocks on and off side. So an island penalty comes in from Ryan with the flair offering himself. It might be palely, however beautifully done runarounds score by Sexton sets up by Murray. Cha cha Irish hands, right? So on to the Ireland squad announcement. So 35 man squad Cooney left out turn or left out. Jack McGuire left out, Luke McGuire left out Lamore. Looks like he's going to be gone.


Who has surprised you? Who surprised you? So who surprised you? I have been in our in our eyes.


I thought I'm surprised. Cicconi left out, surprised. I couldn't have to be interesting to see what he's going to do now. Like I said with Lamore, it's all going to be 12 weeks dislocated shoulder. Henderson possible. Tapan, I was this Yarkoni surprise me. Toner I kind of expected a Jack McGrath shot from Disinhibits. And I don't understand what's going on with him like this. The guy that was on the bench for Lions 2017. And I kind of I know Pern and stuff has been for a while, but he's not see him in there because obviously something going on there, he's not happy with his performance.


Look, McGraw, like that was obviously going to be a toss up between himself and Jamieson and Jamieson. If he's smart and he's going to get us. And in Miami, it's more people people are going to use this thing now and say that Jamison kept CONI out. It's not just to get to Miami and redo that coming cappuccino because Jamison is capable of that was kind of a toss up yet. Yeah.


And I think, you know, kund, you know, it's really weird. Like if this was the Six Nations theme park with the Six Nation originally, was Kunze in all that because he's on form back then, but like it hasn't been as hasn't been as consistent probably over since whenever it started back up. Yeah. And you start recoilless. Yeah. The restart. And that's probably kind of worked a little bit against them. And even though he's like player to season, it would also and all that great stuff and which is a testament to how consistently, consistently good he was in for the majority of twenty nineteen thousand twenty season.


But such is the madness of what we're living in right now. Right. And I think to your point, though, I think I think he's picking up form and I think he's picking a squad on form. He's sending a flare out, I think, to guys that that's what he's doing. And I think it's going to be very, very interesting to see. I'd love to be seeing more trainers like, you know, I mean, because I'd say and there's a lot of guys there who are going to be able to prove a point.


And I want to get into that starting side and not settling just to be part of it, you know what I mean? Not just happy to be there. And Huisken McGregor was it. I'm happy to be happy to just taken over something like that out here.


It's hard to take over. There you go. Absolutely.


Looking at the cats, guys, I called it last week, what do I say? You will kanon and we go Shandley. I was surprised to see him up.


I'm delighted he was. I think it's a great call. Yeah, good for him.


But he's enjoyed the moment. I was kind of surprised to see him just back from injury.


Yeah, I think it's a great call and I think he has an opportunity on his hands here to to get a cap on the belt and all things considered. And I think he or she will as no surprise there, Josh, missing out obviously at Burne. And yeah, look, I mean, the thing a burn versus Jack, maybe it might be down to style of flame in terms of around the field. And I don't think it's any real surprise.


I know. And it gets dark. And like I said, you know. It gives you it gives a very different alternative to tomorrow. And look, it's going to be an interesting shoot out between and Miamian and Jamison and particularly interested. See who's on who's on the bench first, because I think Mary's going to start it's just going to be on the bench first. And then who's going to be the one who starts during the autumn series and he's going to be the one who's on the bench following that person.


And but again, we need we need more depth in these in that nine spot. I think we talked about that ad nauseum. So it's great to see Baird massive opportunity to him do almost like what James Ryan did straightaway, which is just like, boom, this is my yeah.


Yes, he's good enough. You can see he's got the penalty. Could be the next Jim Jordan. Just come straight and go. That's it.


And then. And then. And then but then you have the headaches of like who do you put on the lead. You put burn or do you put Henderson on the bench like down the line and talking about, you know what I mean? And you burn it.


If it comes out a situation where Byrd is in, he has to be on the bench for the same.


But if I think there's seven, eight, four or five, I guess about Henry, any complaints? But I don't think I think any Henry is more like a kind of a stop gap six or as Barton is actually as good, if not better than more success, because that's just kind of starting to play areas, you know, like where he started off.


Like I remember. I'm not sure he's back all day. Pretty much. Yeah, exactly.


Like like I don't like seeing like, let's say, a total jackass trying to take sometimes. I don't think he's he's a better second, whereas someone like Courtney Laws, when he goes in sixth, he's actually a month service and that's why he's always in that England squad. You know what I mean?


Looks like we think of them extending out like the the other like we have guys who are like part of the training squad.


I love that. I love that Eddie Jones was the guy that brought that in there a few years back. A lot of people are. Eddie Jones seems to be the guy that comes up as the first guy to do it, kind of to tend to a playmaker. I think he sets a lot of trends.


And his thing was he brought in guys like Marcus Smith, Zach Marsar going back four years and people like, what's this training with squad? What are you trying to go out? And he just training it. It's quiet for three years, never played. But like, you know yourself like when you're in the Irish camp, like, I'd imagine at the very start, it's a bit of a shock to the system, got into this Irish camp and into this whole new environment.


If you're able to be brought in there like two years before, you can't just get used to the system.


So when you finally do get caught, it's got to be a walk in the park for you. Like Laramore did it at all, like he was brought in. He brought him when you were there and always brought in before.


I remember seeing when he was under twenty. So he KOLLEK and he absolutely carves it up and no training training session.


I like those older twenties versus the seniors are always it's always post of like an yeah.




It's funny and there's nothing better like it when you're coming in as young fella can just come on up and go and you know, if I can smash Tommy Boy smash it I'll guarantee you know what I mean. Or I think I blew Jamie.


He's a bit of a rocklike and we tell him we don't know whether very I see what happened. And the coaches, in fairness, there was a bit of old school about it. So neither the under 20s coach or the senior coach would really get involved except for one time, the only time they got involved when Johnny Sexton got in a fight. Or one of the saddest words, I've never seen Joe Schmidt run as fast to break the fight.


And what happened was it just like was it was really a tackle with a circle.


It's a stupid little handy handbag. Yeah. Handbag, stuff like, you know what I mean? Like Japan is back in the day. It is more important to to know what you are doing is actually hard and quickly in training.


He's gotten a lot better. But like I used to draw Overmind by not engaging with him when he was getting pissed off. So I'd be just like, yes, yes, Johnny. Yeah, yeah. Because it's not for me.


It's not like I can't win with you stuff, but. Oh but like I said, like getting low in there now, like a few weeks before he because you know, he's got to get caught up it.


It's good to get him in there now and get him used to the environment, get used to set up getting used to all the guys that he hasn't met like he might. He had never shared a change of one of these monster guys. He's never had a coffee with them. He doesn't know what it's like to train at international. He does not fire.


Well, like you, Yuxi. There you got what hirees in there.


I've earned every bar and Finnie immaturely cream actually go get a call up a Fenderson seniors go out of Henderson's out. You never know.


Yeah. Yeah. It is funny though the like.


Would you bring Toner back in during which we like. My God says, my God says he would go with that quick, quicker, just because they have bared you, compared them right there. Ryan is he's OK. He's got two seasons under his belt, but are three to three. And the other is about two, two and a half season. But he's still relatively young. And so like a do the job, I could be wrong about one.


And I think I have a case here is really good for a long term and and same with same heartburn. And like I mean the comes in like, what are you going to do back now. It's a good problem to have because it's Shaista Jordan's injured. Right. But I think this I think there was a conversation starting about, you know. Do we put Jordan on the wing or fullback respray there for the last few weeks for sort of pushed him out there for the last two games, pushing back on throwing because we know what it's like on the wing and he's kind of fullback has been he's been good there as provincial level.


But it's been it's been a tough step for him, an international level.


But like if I'm looking at it now, like we've seen we've seen a stock that our last few weeks, he's ready to go to a game. Is there, do I trust, ducktail a fullback at international level? No. Do you think they'll give give Conway a preferred second winner, even the economy hasn't played that much. Conway is a safer player and Conway is a better defender. He is better under the horrible.


What about this, by the way? What about his track back and Monster the weekend? Phenomenal. Phenomenal. Like he's played a good bit of fullback there in the past.


Yeah, I remember. I remember him coming through as a fallback.


Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. This is a guy who I think can just make to some guys you just naturally like he's a back three player as opposed to he's a winger. And I don't think it makes much of a difference to him. And a lot of us a lot of guys will tell you sometimes it's actually harder to defend on the wing than it is to find a fullback. A lot of guys say that. But I'm not looking at defense.


I'm looking at under the high ball. And I would much rather andrikienė convertor than Jakob's Dr.. The second category, which has a much better kicking game as well. In Stockton, but this is where the opportunity comes from daily down as well. Business Daily is not unique.


I don't know how, but what is OK if he's fully fit or not yet, but if you can get him back in there, he has an opportunity there. Again, he's not hasn't been playing defense for that long. Kind of. He's in there now like, what, 18 months, two years, same kind of a huge game as opposed to a certain extent, I think it might be I would I would take I would take, you know, a 15.


I would like to see some game time for October 15 as well. Yeah, so it's Autumn pointed out. I'd say that's something I'd say I'm not going to get against it, maybe and certainly. But not against France. I think, look, I think you're either going to see Conway or stockpiled 15 yeah, those two games, but we can win the Six Nations if you win those two games, bonus points. So now it's not really that I'm like there's plenty of time in the Autumn Games to play or, well, conures to play or at Bern's to play your cards to play, are you.


And so I hope like in fairness, like if we look I'm just looking at the list here, like a new clubs right out of those guys who you think is going to get cut in in these two last six nation games. Honestly, I think Baird will and maybe give some part. Yeah.


Think maybe conures as well. Maybe. But that's I don't I think the rest are probably going to have to wait till autumn. Yeah. What's your what's your take.


I think so, yeah. I'm saying to myself, what are you looking to make the bench. But I know it didn't work out the last time was probably Nokomis, maybe Robbie Henshaw is number 23 because he can fill in the fullback if need to be. He can play 12 and 13. So he'll probably get to 23 Jersey the to Conaway's always get because he's versatile and earnest. The first time is also, which is a big blow to the Patriots moments.


All their lives put in a wash. Like, look, if we if we zoom back out for a second here and we go right there right now for a couple of positions coming into the last two games with an autumn is actually the Autumn Games, a great window for us to play these other players and all the players in the extended training squad to give them some game time. It really it puts me at ease, but puts me in a very and much more positive mindset when it comes to where we are potentially going to be with Ireland down the road a little bit.




Or just after missing something there. No, that's actually quite important. If Conway or Stockdale goes fullback, there are two starting ringers at the moment who goes on with all the injuries, who was on the other wing?


I mean, is there an opportunity for Keenan to come straight in? I'm sorry I didn't get here at all, I'm like, hold on a second, I'm just going to pull up the squad. You can see here's me and my forward Braynon like me. I'm thinking today we've we've got a left wing or right wing spot there that's going to be free and it's up for grabs because ours is out at the moment as well. So you're looking at the wingers are at the moment.


So you've got your back three, you've got Conway, you've got daily, you've got King. And George is going to be out now. Then you've got Stockdale's. So like it has to be like Keenan are daily, has to come in unless he decides to bring someone else in with Lambros on. Who else is out at the moment. Earl's injured and who else he might bring in someone like Lowry or some other monster. I don't know Corey.


He'll have to bring someone in.


You have to wait until now. He's been going out as well, actually. And yeah, but I can see it's going to I would imagine probably going to Hugo.


Yeah, I would have definitely. She would have known. She would have. No, I don't think anyone would.


Who do you start in a second. Also softeners is going to you just talk Barton straight in there with James. Right. You know, you bring about certain straight and especially it's especially against it, and certainly that's why, look, we'll see what happens like. Interesting, I do think I expect someone to be called up there. I don't know whether or not he called up in a second or will he bring Toner back in or bring obviously he's going to have to bring in a battery of almost Demopolis there and have a look and see who's available at the moment in terms of injury wise and see what options are there.


It's exciting, though, because, like, look, I mean, it's a win win here, right? OK, I would have noticed we're actually in the hunt here for a potential six nations. The it's panned out. Right. And then at the at the same time and we've got a great opportunity to to bring some rain through some young players and kind of play around with different positions because like MacRobert, there's loads background. Right. But we're probably a little bit thin around nines.


You know what I mean by three for a while, we were starting to get a little bit thin, but now we're building that backup center centers. We've already talked about that in terms of the options there. And second row Philly back up and now maybe a tight head might be the only place you might be a little bit thin in terms of depth.


Yeah, because you said, like, the fact that we're having a debate over, like, you know, how why we're not given Jacques Rogge on that 2017 and he's not in the bloody squad and you've got a kid going to come back as well.


Yeah. Like, you know, it kind of speaks volumes for you there, like, you know, until it's when we zoom back out, it's actually a bigger picture and zoom back in. We've a great opportunity over the next two weeks to go into the bubble. They realize how big like this opportunity is actually and will be easy for them. And all things considered, definitely going to be easy for them, but a great opportunity for them all the same.


And then autumn is is that's if we roll the dice.


My book, Cavalry arrives, almost drive them over the line. Got drafted over yesterday to oh what a fine start of the second half.


That's the next up. A clash with Ireland and then no calenders. Kaitlynn, congrats on being selected in the Irish team, but a lot of competition there in the back row at the moment.


It's ridiculous. Like you look around Leinster monster all star. It must be tough. I talking to no one that really have to be top of your game to make sure you stay in that backdrop.


Yeah, yeah, definitely. Even a the competition we have this and saying like this pretty much to international international players. Two sets of bakhos there next round. So I think having that competition and trying to drive this understand is certainly a positive thing. You know, you have to take your opportunity and you have to be on your game. You're a young black girl coming in now, and I'm just kind of even looking at current players, ex Irish players or even looking abroad, is there any kind of is our age or just gender backgrounds that you look to have looked up over the years or tried to model your game on or look for inspiration?


Yeah, Kenrich, over the last 10 years or so has been someone I've watched cultivations, admired the way he plays. And I think the balance of sort of the power game matched with good faith, agility and offload and on ball skills. So that's that's something I want to improve on. And that's sort of the model I want to go for.


You had a lot of sex recently. Are you kind of are you more comfortable today or is it just kind of a matter of if know, don't mind where I was?


I'm definitely a bit of I'm happy to have to play, rather. I just want to be in the team and playing games. But I think to storage and Leo kind of both said they're happy for both of us to sort of play rather than to get involved as much as possible in the middle of the park and things like that. So obviously, sex is a bit more of a road online action research. And so getting a little bit of exposure is something that has been good for me.


And I still need to improve on a surgeon.


I was talking to Jamie several weeks ago and he reckons you're the best number eight in the country at the moment. I have all the skill drills to go right to the very top.


Would, you know, up to Jamie and give you the character. And yeah, he was obviously unbelievable for Ireland over the years. And someone like Richard who's got that balance between the power game, the face and agility and goals as well, so that he's someone I would watch closely and would have learned quite a bit off. Unfortunately, we didn't have too much time. And I said either got a few training sessions and there is a special player and I'm happy to play six or eight.


I kind of said that I'd like to be an ace. You can play six rather than six players, but I'm happy to have that bit of exposure and it, as I said, grow in that area.


There's been a lot of hype recently about one of your teammates, James Doyle, giving his former Leinster as someone who's recently made that step. Have you been chatting to him at all about the difference between provincial and international being, just how hard that step up is?


Yeah, well, I've only had twenty five minutes, so I'm probably not the best person to talk to about that. But yeah, it definitely has the support. I mean it's sort of. The chances are more fleeting and perhaps take them that sort of decision making and aspects guys are more likely to make the right decisions. You've got it kind of if you don't make the right decision, you're going to be found in defense or attack. So that's probably the main thing.


It's just the accuracy of decision making. I think at the top level of European rugby, it's pretty similar in the physicality and the speed is there as well. But it's just it's just taking away opportunities because there's less than at the top level. And just on your own game, and you're kind of you're seen as a skillful Barcarolle, is that the way you're trying to model your game going forward, like you don't want to be one of those big blocky carrying number eight?


You want to be a guy that can do it all like you do. You work on your own scales. Do you work with the box at all or work on your hand more so than most backwards and flankers. What? Yeah, definitely try to get a few acts of passing out in the gym most days, I think I'm not not as naturally gifted. I'm never going to be the size of someone. I believe in Apollo. But I think still there's room for improvement in the strength and power aspects of my game as well.


But, yeah, definitely want to be more of an all rounder. Do you think the game itself going forward does need to move more towards that type of Asian game as opposed to like we're gone about last week or two weeks ago about that Saracen's game? And you're going to in all about this power and physicality, like I know whether or not I didn't have that, but is it the wrong route to be going down? Should we be looking more towards back to our division?


Back towards the chasing goal is not the way the game is going to flourish and become a truly global sport?


I think so, yeah. Personally speaking, anyway, I'd be much more worried about talking to someone like Jeff and Kobe over some kujira. I think having the speed and agility is definitely hard to defend. And I hope that's I hope that's where the game goes.


Thanks, Caitlyn. Best of luck with the rest of the season. No white again now possibly go through the teko during a fuzzy white guys again. Yeah, for the good run again I, i Filippetti Breezy Point has been lost and it's flicked out and Dungannon driving back to Troy. You see where it comes from here to anticipate this breakdown. Look at him just sniffing in the background. He sees it in the sixth sense. He knows it. No.


Who is the outstanding. We're on to World News. Joe Smith. He's back after be and how performance I talked to them during a week ago, and you absolute dark horse and noise cause you know where they're from, but at the same time, I think, like, no better man for the job.


I look, if there's anyone that can take on so what will be general, like any big organization, it's going to be sort of out of politics around it right at the end. If there's ever a guy who can kind of get the focus, narrow down and get people behind it, it's Joe. And I think and it's going to be really interesting to see what that role actually is and what that role actually entails.


Sounds very broad, doesn't it? Like it's like director of ROOPI, high performance, like it's like sort the boss of everything. I mean, I really like your director of rugby for rugby. It's pretty. Yeah.


It's it's a very, very broad topic, a broad, broad job title. And but I think if there's a guy who's who's good at dealing with multiple things and being able to take on that workload and it's Joe from what I from what I've seen. And and I think. I'm actually really excited about, you know what I mean, and I'm really excited to see what he can do maybe for the Tier two nations and emerging markets and stuff like that in terms of giving them access to wash.


Some of the bigger teams are getting and bringing them through. And just just that whole high performance area, how he's able to disseminate that kind of information to the teams that might not necessarily have the infrastructure, like in New Zealand, like, you know, England, Ireland, Australia, France, you know what I mean? And we really just see whether it are really excited. There's not there's no better man for that type of job, that's for sure.


And and. He's not as big a I mean that in a nice way, and I think I think he be to me, but I know he's obsessed. Yeah, like rugby obsessed. Oh, obsessed.


And we always hear it. I saw. Have you any, like, an example of something that we might've heard before I just to show how insanely obsessed he is.


Like we used to have the ongoing, like, kind of running game was like, how long can you get, Joe, not to talk about rugby? So you mean randomly or you mean a moving train and carrying companies that he loves horses, right? So that was the only thing I always found that you could start on. But I knew nothing about horses. I'm just trying to get to Cheltenham or something like that, like but I think it's like five minutes max.


And then it came straight back into what you did, a training or what this team were doing, our guy your position was doing. And he was just always on, always on.


You always hear about his analysis and stuff like, was he like super, super detailed? Like, is he the kind of guy that's how much prep goes into the opposition and how much prep goes into your cells.


Is this going to go, you know, actually discount the skill that he does is that he actually disseminates the information. So when you get this. You know, it's quite exact and quite concise as opposed to very broad, so he's obviously done the work and looked at where how he's going to. Breakdown the team or something like that, and then he kind of gives you that the solution goes no that and then it's on you to know what I mean, as I like the move or the set play or your role or something like that and and doing the basics right.


Like that's on you to to that's your responsibility. But he'll distill it down to to like a paint by numbers almost scenario, you know what I mean. And that's, that's, that's the skill of Joe and his skill of unlocking teams and spotting the opportunity. And I'm playing playing to your team strengths. And that's you know, he's he's one of the best coaches I ever worked with to see him there now. And that role is really, really interesting.


Sounds like kind of a Guardiola guy. Like I said, look, you're just one piece of the puzzle and he will just you make sure you do your role correctly. And if everyone does the role, it comes together and you've got a hell of a good team. One hundred percent, yeah, that's interesting. That's just that's kind of just the way you kind of see it over the years. You watch the New Zealand and Australia game to see how that trending.


I actually I actually missed it. Truth be told, and I don't know what I was I was like asking me not to bother.


And then I see everything about it and think, oh, I just I recorded my soapbox. There's no way in hell I'm Attaran. Or sometimes I get up and I'll watch the six am games at seven games I when I was just awful. When I get up at four o'clock in the morning, the misses of my alarm goes off on the way to four o'clock in the morning I will get some and a Sunday of all days. And so I was like Granzow and I just recordists.


I get up so I get up like half a cup of coffee so I don't what to do with the dogs.


And like from the first minute, like I said, fuck. And I'll let these guys haven't played a Test match in 2020. And the intensity, the physicality, the speed, like what they had like this, it felt like it was game four. And after a six month season or something like that, I couldn't believe how did they get up to that level of intensity? Like, really good to see how good Australia were. And we expect them to be under dirani.


He's a hell of a coach and he's a great guy.


And you know what? I'm delighted to like reading reports, and I'm delighted that. That what that does, that's what came back because they're on a slippery slope where they have been on a slippery slope. You know what I mean, and the organization in general is under pressure, the financial problems the staff would follow, like it's been a difficult time for them and then, yes, it goes well in the World Cup, like we check out, like, you know, yourself check as a brilliant coach.


He's just his time as up piranhas course. And he loves going to defer to the fans. And that was it. He moved on. He probably stayed over six months longer than he should have. But, you know, it's it wasn't his fault. The whole organization was a mess. It's good to see someone come in, look like I'll never forget. I remember thinking about two years ago and Wayne Smith and we all know Wayne Smith is probably one of the greatest coaches of all time.


And he said it two years ago. I am shocked that none of the six nations I've hired, Dave, or any extra head coach, Dave Rennie is one of the best coaches I've ever seen. And he will be an international coach before the. And when they look back and it is surprising that the likes of whales didn't look at the likes of Ireland, England haven't looked at him because. He's to give it a cheap shot, Glasgow, he's a hell of a coach, we wouldn't like to ask the question, how did they go about looking and assessing and recruiting coaches?


And, yeah, that's what no one knows.


Well, I suppose they do look at like like let's say Scotland didn't need him, I think is a good house. And but we look at where he looked at that because he was coaching. There are more successful Welsh team Scaturro playing very well at the moment. So, you know, lots of players, you know, when you wake him up, he was coaching Leinster. So he's a good option. He knows all the players.


Yeah, but I just think just just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's always it's always going to be the right way, you know what I mean?


And bringing the assistant manager seems to be the way to even the opportunity to bring in bring in like a good number to win. Seems to be the way to do it at the moment. And then Gruman, about poverty for years. What does we saw with far less what we saw with what we've seen?


You know, we'll we're going to see we're going to see with our coming through. We're going to see we're ready down there. What's going to happen, know how we missed an opportunity. And but either way, I'm delighted, delighted to see and kick back and have the reform.


They should have won that game, like if you want to go back and see it. So, like, the last ten minutes is absolutely insane. Like, it finished all and then Australia managed to get into there. Twenty two. And of course, typical All Blacks, I'd say you'd actually you'd struggle to count how many penalties there is. On one hand they're going to have they're coming in from the side or playing the ball.


I've been on the receiving end, I'm sure. So yeah.


I'm sure that's happened to you. Like, I mean it's different.


We don't see as much watching it like, but I'm sure does many of those games that Ireland had last over the years with that game that we lost in the very last minute.


Look, I'm sure there was a lot of. Oh, I didn't know, like, I would just say, look, they're crafty. Yeah, like I mean, like I mean, it's like it's only cheating if you are like, you know, I mean, and and, you know, they're bending the rules and sometimes just not getting caught doing things that others do. Like Richard McCall was a genius for you. Yes.


How good was he are like are you better go to games against him now. Like how good was he? Like us, as we say.


I will say bending the rules are being crafty, just like one of the best, because that's what you want from us, know. I mean, different positions and different kind of skills. And that's definitely one of the seven. And the fact that was captured is what I like. I mean, at a time when that didn't really seem better, send off captains like. You know, and he managed it very well, like know, he got better as the years went on, but look for straight one point of view be very frustrating for Australia.


But the other point of view will be they'll take a lot from us, I think. And and it's it's.


Again, it's a warning sign, I think, for others, just like don't write Australia off kind of thing. I mean, we're going to go down on tour. We would go to in June, I think initially Australia, Ireland or Australia. You kind of think we potentially could have dodged a bullet right now going down there? Yeah, yeah, actually yeah. And I think that that would have been his first thought I would have in his first group of games.


And he seems like he cleared house in terms a lot of parents by a lot of UNCAP guys and brought some guys back in. James O'Connor back playing 10 played absolutely brilliant weekend, which is another lovely story to see kind of guy that really went off the rails for a long time. And we know how good he is. Yeah, it's good to see. I'll be tuning in for four more to win over the weekend. That much?


Oh, well, I'm definitely not missing this one.


Yeah. So if it's on early, just yourself down to the kill box records. Oh, I get this. Just just make sure you get up in the morning. Don't go near Twitter or Facebook. I just I just left my phone upstairs in the central bank during this match.


Let's go. I'll see if I can find my seven year old my seven year old daughter, two year old daughter gets older and seven, if it's OK, we watch a lot and said, OK, I'll see. I don't know if I'm going to be there.


George, do you give her the phone and leave her big on YouTube and a set of earphones? There you go.


I don't know. I don't know if an hour and a half of age is the best parenting decision I can make of it.


Not no. All right, Jamie, because it's going to look all right.


So, guys, that's it for this week's show. I hope you enjoyed it. And chatty again next week. Stay safe.