The New York Times, Rolling Stone, Los Angeles Times, and Critics Everywhere Agree. Betterman is utterly transformative. That is massive. Now with a 92% Critics Score and 98% Audience Score on Rotten Tomato. You might want to frame that. Betterman. Rated R. Now playing. Well, hello, everybody. How have you been? It's Jon Stewart. It's the Weekly Show pod. We are back after a three-year absence or what it feels like a three-year absence in that, boy, an awful lot of ups and downs and living has been put into those three years. This is being taped midweek of Before the inauguration, which will take place, I believe. Although everything seems to be, for some reason, everything with this transfer of power seems to be going very smoothly. As I had posited earlier, it is amazing how the peaceful transfer of power can occur when you don't act like a little bitch when you lose. So that is occurring. As of this recording, there is still some Los Angeles left. Please God, let this nightmare for those folks be done and let the healing and rebuilding of that area, which is going to be a Herculean and emotional task Please let that start in this moment.

Boy, what an awful. And it really, I think, accentuates the tenuous moment that I think a lot of people are feeling themselves in as we move towards this inauguration day. No one can know what's going to happen. But boy, trepidation is our constant companion as we lead into this. We've been promised shock and awe and not in the good way, I don't believe. There are those moments of anticipation that you have. There's some anticipatory moments where you're like, Oh, tomorrow, it's my birthday and we're having an ice cream bar. And then there's this moment of anticipation, which feels a little bit more like, I think my parents are sending me forcefully to a wilderness camp. I just, boy, you feel like you're staring down the barrel of something not fun. There are a lot of things people can shoot at you through a barrel, one of them being a T-shirt at a sporting event, and that's fun. But this doesn't appear to be one of those moments. But obviously, I want to withhold certain judgment. But in these moments, I do find myself looking for historical perspective and solace. Truly, it does help me to view through the prism of the cycles that we've been through in the country and the other up and down cycles and the terrible tribulations and the interesting triumphs and the unexpected moments.

The guest today on our first pod back of 2025 is someone who I think is most able to provide that perspective and context and thoughtfulness So I'm just going to damn get to it, for God's sakes. So let's do it. Welcome back, Weekly Show pod, and our first guest. Folks, I can't think of anybody that I would rather talk to in this moment in time than the fabulous historian, Bon Vivant, gentleman and scholar. Bon Vivant. John Meacham, presidential historian, author of And There Was Light, a biography of Lincoln. John, welcome.

John.

Thank you for joining us in this moment of anticipation.

Bon vivant. Bon vivant. I love this. Thank you. Bon vivant. I love this. Thank you.

Thank you. Welcome to the salon. Thank you so much for being here. There's so much to talk about, but I want to go off of something that you've said often, which is politicians are mirrors of who we are in many respects and not molders. I think that's such an interesting concept. With Trump, then, what is the mirror here? Because he feels like a molder, if you could call him that. But what's the mirror? What is your sense of what this moment is saying about us?

Well, not to get too lost in the metaphor, for, but that's what I do, so we might as well. To mold, you have to amass power. In that way, you tend to mirror. President Trump, and I just want to say something, I'm going to call him President Trump because one of the things that drove me crazy in the last 48 months was this snarky tone on the right, which was there was this creature who was in power called Biden.

So they didn't call him President Biden. They just said Biden.

I swear to God, you watch Fox all day long. President Trump is a mirror of, I think, our most basic instincts. I think that he has deepened and exacerbated many of our worst characteristics. And One of the arguments that we have, and I have this with people who are in power at the moment and will be for at least 48 more hours, is people will say, This isn't who we are. Well, of course it's who we are. We've lived out of compliance with the Declaration of Independence far more often than we've lived in compliance with it. That's not to say, Oh, therefore it's all going to work out, or let's not do anything about that.

Unpack that, though, a little bit, because that's such an interesting thought, because in terms of living outside the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, I've always had that sense You have this founding document that says all men are created equal, and within the same document, some men are considered three-fifths of a human.

Different document, but yeah.

Is that the compliance? Right, different document. But is that the compliance you're talking about?

Yeah. We began the national experiment voluntarily by saying that we hold these truths to be self-evenant, that all men are created equal. Didn't have to do that. But Jefferson, on one of the great committees of all time, Jefferson, Franklin, Sherman, Livingston, and Adams, I would assign them anything to do. Must have been a great deck when Franklin ran through the deck. A white guy, a flawed 33-year-old white guy, slave owner, articulated an ideal of human liberty, unique in that time and place for someone with power to articulate that. People who look like me did set the standard. Then As you say, we immediately, 30 seconds later, fell short of it. 1776 to 1865, we allowed human enslavement. Out of compliance, seems to me. We had a brief period after the Civil War where white folks who looked like me down here in the south could not vote because a lot of folks wouldn't take an oath back into the United States. Black folks could vote very briefly. And then there's a white reaction, white supremacist reaction in the 1870s. Let's just say for 10 years, we were in compliance. We got 10. Seriously, think about it.

No, you're dead on.

Then we go back out of it from really the 1876 election, which pulled federal troops out of the south as a price of Hayes beating Tilden. Then we really roll until 1965, where separate accommodations, incredible obstacles to franchise. Basically, and there's a frequent argument about this, I believe it. We will be celebrating the 250th anniversary in a couple of years. I think we're 60 years old. I think we were founded in 1965. In many ways to bring this exactly to where we are, President Trump is in many ways a reaction to the implications of what unfolded in the country in 1964 and '65.

In terms of the Voting Rights Act? Are you talking also about immigration at that time?

Yeah, in terms of becoming a genuine, well, both, becoming a genuine, multi-ethnic, multiracial democracy. You're right, it was the Civil Rights Act, it was the Voting Rights Act, and it was the Immigration and Nationality Act in 1965.

Which changed the demographic of the country. It moved immigration from that more Western European model to something that was browner.

For those who think that, Oh, boy, if only it could be like it was in the old days, What the 1965 Act did was repeal the Restrictive 1924 Act, which, as you say, established these national quotas that emphasize Northern Europe. That's what was in place when the Roosevelt administration chose to follow the letter of the law and not allow more refugees in from Nazi Germany. That's how this matters.

Right.

Look, this is who we are. I have argued for a long time, you and I have had this argument, that the remarkable thing about the country is that we get as much right as we do. That's a really easy thing for me to say. I'm a boringly heterosexual white Southern male, Episcopian.

Is that your Tinder profile? It is. Is that what's on there? Boring, heterosexual, white- White, Southern male Episcopian. All right.

We had a hell of a run. I'm intrigued. We had about 10,000 years. There are a lot of folks who are thinking, Wait a minute, we're not going to be in charge. This is a reaction to that.

Or it's a loss of absolute power. It's this idea that that would be the default setting of the country, and that is the meritocracy, and that anything that deviates from that. What does it say then? Because I think this brings it back to your interesting point, which is, and we have chosen a retreat from that. 2016 felt like an anomaly. The popular vote was lost. It was a surprise. This feels it's not Reagan winning 49 states, but it's a much stronger argument to a broader coalition and a choice that the country made a choice. I'm I'm wondering, does it reflect, and maybe this is a broader point for America in general, but does it reflect it's a democratic repudiation in some respects of democracy? If that contradiction can make sense. Donald Trump clearly has run in a manner that says, I want to accrue more power in the executive than maybe the founders in the Constitution are comfortable with. I want the Supreme Court to grant me immunities that seem utterly at odds with so many of the other checks and balances that go along there. It is a democratic approval in in some ways, of an anti or less democratic movement.

Does that make sense?

The one edit I would make is it's a populist retreat from democracy.

Why do you say things better than I do?

I'm sorry. I know. I really don't care for that. I know. And you are Edward R. Morrow. You should be a writer. If Edward R. Muro and Johnny Carson had a baby, it's you. Are they allowed to do that now?

Probably not. They are now. They wouldn't have been allowed to do that a few years ago, but they're allowed to do it now. Does that put us at more risk then as this goes along?

Yes, it does. And I'm not trying to be alarmist, right? No, I understand. I thought Trump was a difference of degree but not kind. You talk about '16, until 2020, and really the aftermath of the election. The stuff he did was It was a corrosion of the presidency as an institution that I revere. I found myself with my children trying to explain why their father spends his time recording the history of something that seemed so flawed.

Oh, wow. You even thought of it in a manner of, I've spent my life revering the history of this system, and to watch it be so casually discarded made you question the things that you were doing? Why record something that is now this, I don't know, tenuous?

Yes. The answer to that part should be, well, and in fact, that is the answer I have, which is the fact that it is tenuous and contingent means we have to tell the stories of moments of both peril and possibility because this is what we've got. I didn't question the efficacy of the work, if that makes sense. But it was an emotional sadness. Here's just a quick story about it. On Ash Wednesday, 2021, I'm sure you remember where you were.

You know me. I'm the one who's... I'm the guy with the pots with the ashes. Just go and do whatever you want. Somebody's got to gather them.

Burning the palms. That's right. But I remember because I was going up I was at a meeting in Washington. My daughter, who was then 16, 17, wanted to go up. We had the opportunity to run see someone whose office was in the Capitol.

Just go ahead and say the President.

Just say the President. Well, no. I was going to say the President. No, I was saying the President later. But that day, it was the Capitol itself. All right, fair enough. But I had some time, and so went up to see a lawmaker. I hadn't realized, this is February 2021, the amount of fencing and the number of National Guardsmen around the Capitol. The reaction I had was a embarrassment that my daughter, for whom this would be a formative political memory, saw this as we are having to erect barriers to keep Americans who are trying to seize power at any cost. This is just this should not be who we are. Not that it isn't, but it is who we should not be. We don't need to keep doing my therapy, but I appreciate it.

No, that's what we're here for today. I appreciate that. We're here to heal John Meachum, who is at odds with his own career. Right. Okay, got to take just a quick break, and we shall be right back. From the director of The Greatest Showman comes the most original musical ever. I want to prove I can make it. Prove to who? Everyone.

So the story starts.

Better Man, Rated R, now playing. We are back. I wonder, though, on. Isn't Trump, in some respects, it's almost a throwback presidency to a time of manifest destiny? There are things about his presidency that are explicit in the 17th century values. There's a certain amount of Seward's Folly, and there's a certain amount of-It's the Mexican War. It's Polk. Right. When it was, and to be purposefully crass, it is a theory of power that he expressed in his interview with Billy Bush, which is we're going to grab them by the whatever. And that is how America, in some respects, used to operate. And is Trump just explicitly expressing the implicit way that America has operated in the world? Are we overreacting based on his style rather than what he is actually saying to do? When he says, Hey, Greenland, underneath you are all these things that are very important to us. So I hate to tell you this, we're going to have to take you over, as opposed to the modern presidency, which would be Greenland. We would love to elevate you democratically. We would couch it in higher value and higher morals, but ultimately the result being a slightly imperialistic and colonial grab.

Does that make sense?

It does. Would we invite them to a yellow pad conference, give them a free fleece, and then take their country?

That's exactly right.

Yeah. It's the Brookings approach as opposed to the bullying. Brookings versus bullying. That's right. Is where we are. Yes is the answer. I'm all for vigorous and unconventional debate. The Greenland thing was one those moments where you're sitting there and you're thinking, this is crazy, but then you go, I wonder, maybe we want Greenland. It's that- We've certainly tried to buy it in the past. It's not top of mind, I think, for a lot I don't think I live in Nashville. I don't think down on Broadway. They're singing Friends in Low Places and thinking Greenland.

Maybe not, but I'll tell you what, Chattanooga, they've been about this for years.

Hey, don't mess with the home folks.

All right, fair enough.

Moon pies and coca-Cola.

Believe me, if the ingredients to make Moon pies were underneath Greenland, they'd be all about it, brother. They'd be down there.

If he wants to bring up crazy stuff, that's perfectly fine to me. I just don't want him to try to steal elections. I don't want him bullying judges. I don't want him appointing only the cast of Fox News to hold ultimate power.

Right.

And look, people like us, I think a lot of folks on the right might say that the people on this screen right now are one of the reasons Donald Trump is President. I think that exaggerates, to say the least.

I lay it mostly at my feet. Well, you should. I think you're out clean, but I think it's mostly at my feet.

Well, let me tell you. One more story. Yeah. So this is where we're doing full therapy. I am famous, not famous.

You are famous.

No, on the right, there's a trope in that part of the world. On the night of the final presidential debate in 2020. This is another thing about my children. It was here in Nashville. It was that horrible one, remember, where Trump wouldn't stop talking and all that. It was really embarrassing. I took another Another child of mine down to the actual debate.

I'd never been in a hall for one of those. Do you guys not have a great adventure down there? Is it always every story about your children is like, and I took them to a legislative session where they got to watch a certain amount of gerrymandering that was occurring.

Then we went to the subcommittee.

Are they ever like, Dad, they make roller coasters. You can get on them?

No, we don't do that. We're very, very serious here. And I came back, and I do my TV stuff from my basement. I So I was doing, say, commenting at, say, 11:00 PM. And it had really been a, again, unsettling moment where you had an incumbent President trying to bully a former vice President President. It just wasn't where we wanted to be, in my view. It was one of these things where President Trump had kept talking about the mayor of Moscow. He was speaking in this Fox news.

That's right. Russia, Russia, Russia, and all that. Yeah.

And different illusions I didn't fully understand. I was sitting there talking probably to Brian Williams, and what do you think? And I said, something to the following effect, Donald Trump basically appeals to the white man's lizard brain. It's this elemental thing, which is what I meant. Now, that was a gift wrapped to right wing ecosystem because suddenly it became that I had called Trump supporters Lizard Brains. It was fairly... There were threats Sets. There was all that stuff.

Familiar with that?

Yeah, absolutely you are. More so. It was a lesson to me that you can't walk into it. The basic point I was trying to make was that there is an elemental feel here. Greenland is part of that. It's like, all right, as you were just saying, we want to grab it. One of the things that worries me most, and tell me if you're seeing this in your world, I think this exhaustion, the resistance, exhaustion, is a very real thing.

No, I think there's no question about that. I think you spoke of January sixth in 2020 being a demarcation point for you. I feel the same way. We can talk about degrees of expansionist rhetoric or all kinds of other things. Trump certainly isn't the first President who has enemies lists or who is doing things explicitly through the influence of corporate power, any of these other things. They're all in there. The line of demarcation for me always within a democracy that has a peaceful transfer of power is a democracy until the person decides like, Hey, you know what? I think maybe I'm not leaving. That, to me, is the moment. Rather than that moment being disqualifying, that moment seemed to be, in some respects, a rallying We didn't get to do it this time. Then to see that, I guess, what you would say devaluing of the democratic process be rewarded with a grander victory than what it was, I think is the most dispirating part of it that I'm seeing. But the second part of it, John, is, and I'm curious what you think about this, every new media is going to create some a change in structure, a seismic shift, whether it was radio, whether it was TV.

I think they are better at this new... They are Kennedy and television when it comes to this new media, as opposed to, and I think the Democrats are Nixon with the sweaty lip going, I don't need makeup. I look great. I think that's part of it. When you talk about, I said Lizard Brain by a mistake, and they took it, I think, A, let me, in our therapy session, excuse you because you can't outsmart social media. You cannot be so careful. I would urge you not to be because it doesn't matter your framing. It doesn't matter a casual slip. They will find the root of attack, and there will be a relentlessness to it that you just have to accept as part of it is the congestion pricing of having an operating an artisan talk shittery of being someone who expresses opinions. But it's not real. Those have been weaponized for that. But I don't think that the left has figured out in any manner how to make that work for them.

I think that's right. It's one of the great mysteries. Al Gore tried to fix this 20 years ago.

In what way?

Remember, he started a network.

Oh, yeah.

Remember, Current? Yes. It's just an interesting thing. It's also, we shouldn't whine about it. Political power, as you say, often accrues to those who master the means of Communication. Right.

But also the message, I think, and here's where I think it's a more difficult situation than I think people give it credit to. It's not just Trump as a bad actor or January or any of those things. I think increasingly, democracy is an analog system in a digital world, and the chasm that that creates between the emotional catastrophizing of its people versus the glacial pace of change. I do think democracy itself has to find a way for government to be more agile and responsive. I I have sympathy for those who believe that our government is not responsive to the discomfort of its own people in large measure.

Yes. And the One of the first times that argument was made was by Anne Morrow Lindberg. Charles Lindberg- You're taking us back to America first.

I thought you were going to say William Jennings-Brion. I had no idea you were going Lindberg.

Anne Morrow Lindberg.

You are a man of surprises, me too.

That's me, baby. The book was called The Wave of the Future. It was a big best seller in the '40s. The argument was that what was happening in Rome, Berlin, and Moscow was more suitable to a globalized world that was shrinking because of air power and technology.

Wow.

And that a totalitarian system might be more commensurate with the challenges of a world that required quicker national action. I've heard American President students talk about this in private. Not that they're for it, but that they understand the impulse. To me, democracy is fundamentally a moral question, and not in a Sunday school way, but it's how we are with each other. I'm on the right side of the economic equation, and I'm certain I would have a different view or different views if I were in a different place or if I were a different person, that goes without saying. But the moments in American history where we have done things that we tend to commemorate and say we want to emulate, have been moments where we have decided that giving was as important as taking.

You're going better angels on us.

I'm going better angels on us, but it's a '51, '49 thing. Here you go. It's not better angels because it's just the right thing to do. Here's another story.

Where did you take your kids this time? We went to an essay contest.

This is going to be... Actually, get ready. This is about Greenwich Country Day School in the 1930s.

You can't get more Episcopalian than that, sir.

George Herbert Walker Bush was the most glamorous boy in the school.

Yes, I'm sure.

He was about to go off to Andover to boarding school. There was an obstacle course race at Greenwich Country Day School. He always wanted it. The faculty came to him in his last year and said, Would you let everybody else have a head start? He said, Sure. Whatever that voice would be when you're 13. There was a boy in the school named Bennett McNickel.

Come on.

Get ready.

Not true.

Bennett McNickel was a fairly rotund lad. He had not paid attention to Mrs Obama's School Lunch program. That's important to the story.

But he will pay attention to RFK Junior School Lunch program. Get ready.

Everybody goes off. Then Bush goes. He's going through a series of barrels on the ground, narrow barrels in the obstacle course, and he pops out and he looks to his right, and Bennett McNickel is stuck in the barrel. Can't get out. Bush reaches down, pulls Bennett out, says, Come on, Bennett, we'll finish this together. It's the story that a presidential family tells about their chieftan to say what a great person he was. But I didn't hear it from a Bush. I heard it from a McNickel. And so I took it to the old man. This was 10, 15 years ago. And I said, Mr. President, I just heard this story about Bennett McNickel. The first thing he said was, Bennett, he loved lunch. I said, No, no, no. That's really not the point, sir. He said, Is he still big? I said, Not the point. I said, Why did you take him out of the barrel? And George Bush looked at me really as if I were crazy. And he said, listen to what he said, I'd never been stuck in a barrel, but if I had been, I'd want somebody to pull me out.

I did it because it was the right thing to do. I did it because my better angels told me what to do. I did it because my mother read me the Bible. It was a practical act of covenant. He might need help, so he gave help.

That was the first point of light. Yeah, there you go. The thousand points of light. There you Okay, we're going to take a quick break and be right back. We are back. This is, in some respects, you're looking at this as the American public has in some ways voted for the more Hobzian approach.

Bingo.

That the idea is that's a lovely sentiment, but here's what you have to do in the real world, leave heavier people in the barrels because otherwise- You got to keep moving.

You got to go beat China. China is over here, leave Borb Bennett. Yeah, that's exactly right. If the Hobbesian scholars write in, you respond. But it's Hobbes versus Locke, right? Locke was, Well, the state of nature is we all believe in liberty and each other. Hobbes said, No, it's the war of all against all. That's the state of nature, and that the state of nature requires a strong man, a monarch, to run it. That's absolutely where we are.

But in that, were we kidding ourselves about lock. I mean, in some respects, isn't what then H. W. Would represent is a benevolent dictator as opposed to a more ruthless one? Because I guess that was my point originally, are we putting on blinders? And this brings us around more full circle to what we're talking about, which is, are we now seeing our system more clearly as it is? Even let's talk about there's this idea of money controls our system. Well, now we're seeing it explicitly, and it's always hidden and lobbying groups and all that. Meanwhile, Elon Musk comes in and says, I'll give you $270 million, and that investment will pay off in $200 billion. Are we just seeing the dynamics of the system? Is it like those watches? If you remember, there was those old watches where you could turn them over and you could see how it worked, and you could see the gears. Are we really just seeing the gears now in a way that's more explicit? Were we kidding ourselves that this country really was a country of pulling people out of barrels? I think- Is that too cynical?

No, it's not.

I'm sensing your disappointment.

No, I'm thinking because I think this is why history has a moral utility. I think that it's, and I'm to be serious for a second. It is absolutely rational to have a cynical fatalistic reaction to the fact that 49.9% of the voters chose to do this again. All I would say is that I could make a pretty good case that our better moments have always been counterintuitive, countercultural.

Elaborate.

It took... So Franklin Roosevelt, who redefines the relation of the state and the country, eliminates poverty among the elderly with Social Security, took people, gave them some dignity, gave them some work, didn't really want to integrate war contracts and rounded up to Japanese Americans.

So Hobbes and Locke working together.

In one person. We've been doing this since the third chapter of Genesis. We're driven by... There was a piece of fruit They said, Don't take it. We said, No, I want that.

The one thing. We had everything.

Then fruit.

One weekend, they're like, You know what I would like? Fruit. Some a crumble. What do you think? Apple crumble? We did it for Harry and David's.

Oh, for God's sake. We did for a box of pears. What is wrong with us? But therefore, the fact that Harry Truman and Lyndon Johnson and George H. W. Bush and Joe Biden, the fact that flawed, sinful, broken people were still able, in extremis, to do something that broadened the mainstream that put us a little more in compliance with the Declaration is not something... The way you articulated a second ago was a glass half empty. I don't want to say it's half full, but it's a quarter full. I think that's what makes history. I think that's what is a source of hope is that realizing that all these people in the past were just as miserable as we are. They had terrible days and they had good days. I remember running across this. If you go to the Lincoln Memorial, the great temple, it's otherworldly, it's divine. But then you go in and it's the face of a human being.

It's still a pretty large face.

Very large.

That's the tension. It's awe-inspiring. I find that that memorial is the one for me that I think is most visceral in our pantheon. When you go down there, I've always found that I've never been much impressed by marble and limestone in the structures. And boy, when you walk into treasury, you really go, Oh, you're expecting a revolution. When you walk into treasury, you really go, So where's Marie Antoinette's office? Because I'd like to go see her. It is gilded to the nines. And you really do get a sense of if the people find out, they're going to have you melt down some of this gold leaf. That's exactly right. But there is something about the simplicity of the Lincoln Memorial, the scale of it that I have always... And also because I view this Civil War always as our darkest moment, and in some respects, our most fortunate to have had the non-slave owning side triumph. Because without that, I just don't know what this all would have been for, if that makes sense.

That's true. It's another thing, again, on our therapeutic now for you.

I am optimistic, John. I don't want to give you the wrong impression. I remain optimistic.

Well, I'm dork clonopin here, and so I want to offer you something. To me, the thing is that Americans never, as President Biden said, literally, we never just wake up and say, Hey, let's do the right thing. We didn't wake up in 1861 and say, You know what? Human enslavement, let's phase it out. This is bad. No, we killed probably 750,000 people in a country of what? 20 million people. It was huge. In the Gilded Age, the mosques of the late 19th century didn't wake up and say, You know what? What? 40-hour work week.

Right. Unionize.

You know what?

Maybe we should. It was always born of violence to a large extent.

Violence and the tension between conscience and appetite. To your Hobbes point, the central thing as we head into this next week, power.

Right.

And everybody wants it. That's from third chapter of Genesis forward. The remarkable thing about this particular national experiment is that we've kept it from being... We have managed to... Let's throw Montesquieu in.

How can you not?

Exactly. We've managed to divide power in a way that has It has its frustrations, but it has kept this rickety ship afloat. Maybe, you know what? I think the founders would have been surprised that we lasted this long with this little renovation? I really do. I mean, think about it. If you were like, we're only going to amend the thing.

They would not have viewed what they wrote as so sacrosanct as Genesis.

Oh, my God. It's one of my things. That's a different conversation. But this idea that a bunch of newspaper... The federalist papers were like super tweets. I mean, they were newspaper pieces. Right. And that's Now Saint Paul? I mean, my goodness.

Isn't it interesting that even today we're having the argument, you could almost make the point that the populist, right, are the antifederalists. They're the antifederalists. They're much more in line with a unitary executive and moving along those lines. But you brought up something interesting, and I know you're on a tight schedule, and I want to honor your time, but I wanted to make sure before you left. You said something earlier that I thought was really interesting.

Thing, which is-Thank God, one thing.

Shut up. This idea of power. And I wonder, can you make the same critique? Because for President Biden, who is now leaving on, I think, a much more obviously melancholy note than what you would have imagined. Is sitting in that office, power does not often seed itself. And I know that you had written about the Cincinnati moment and him stepping away. Do you think that that human flaw is in some ways what didn't allow the President to see maybe his own limitations in that moment and those around him, and that same dynamic that pushes us towards these other changes and trying to get closer to, as you said, the pact that we made in the Declaration. Do you think that was what was at play in that moment?

Yes. I think that the forces, the characteristics that drove President Biden to the pinnacle of power at a very late season in his life in a Greek way were the characteristics and the habits of heart and mind, and yes, appetite, that propelled him into a campaign that self-evidently he shouldn't have done. He's my friend. I help him when I can. I don't talk about our conversations, so I'm in a very weird position here, but I don't want to be dishonest either. Sure. I understand. And so I think that unquestionably, as history looks at President Biden, this remarkable 50-year public life, it is a period of tragic lows and unexpected highs. He was left for dead politically in presidential terms again and again, and makes that last campaign in 2020 at what is hard to remember sometimes how dark that hour was. Residential legacies always depend on what comes next. I think we're going to be debating this forever. But will... Let me put it this way.

If this is another kid's trip, I don't want to hear it.

No, no, no. Presidents can't have it both ways. You can't say in a country of 330 million people, I'm the one who should have the nuclear codes, and then say, Well, I didn't quite see that coming. Right. So too much is given, much is expected. President Biden will the debate about his legacy And arguably, every time he's discussed in historical terms, people will have to deal with the following question. Was the skill set that produced 48 months of results, was that worth the price of the political confusion confusion that unfolded in 2024? That's the question.

Well, it's a question that I'm sure that John Meacham will be answering because John Meacham answers questions. Listen, John, I don't want to give away too much of your hidden life. But when we first came on to the program, and John was kind enough to join us on the podcast, he was reading just for pleasure. I want to make this very clear. This was not a sign. This is not part of a long-sending work. John, would you mind holding up?

Do you want to see it?

Yeah. Mamy Eisenhower, ladies and gentlemen. This is a man-Look at this.at home in his Study? He could be doing anything. Candy Crush. It could be anything. It could be Candy Crush. In that moment, it is a book on Mamey Eisenhower.

Blurbed by Claire Booth-Luce.

What?

I know.

Notoriously very flinty about putting the blurbs out.

We're very promiscuous in our blurbing.

May I ask what Claire's opinion was of this Mamey Eisenhower? To end this, to put a button on the entire conversation.

All right, this book is written by Alden Hatch. It was published in, let's see. It was published in 1954. It was big in 54.

Had to be.

Had to be. Alden Hatch is a personal friend of Mamies, so it's got hard-hitting-he had access. He had access. This, by the way, is also... This is the complete and unabridged. There may have been an abridged version of red carpet for Mamey. The blurb from Congresswoman Luce is, Mamey Eisenhower is beloved and admired by millions of American women. Apparently, the men didn't think about it.

The men didn't care for him.

Alden Hatches' book makes you understand why. That's good.

That is good. You know what? A good loose cry. That probably is what shot that to the top. For those of you who haven't seen the movie, Ava Gardner was triumphant.

Well, I'm doing a biography of Eisenhower.

Oh, fantastic.

I'm going to spend the rest of the day worried about the battle for Tunisia, if you need me.

Can I tell you something, though? It I so love the idea because Eisenhower today would be considered a Communist. I love the idea that it's coming out there, that a man who warned against the military-industrial complex and understood and just wanted to build roads. The idea that you're putting that out there Yeah. Delightful. Jon Meacham, I can't thank you enough for this therapy session, for everything that you brought in there, John Meacham. And there was light. You've got to read a wonderful biography of Lincoln. John, thanks for for joining us.

Thank you, Jon.

Man, first of all, welcome back, guys. Gillian, Lauren, Brittany. I hope you guys all had a well-deserved break and you enjoyed yourselves. But Meacham comforts me. He's like, he's my Campbell soup. There's something about the breadth of knowledge, the made up names, and Nate McNickel, Claire Booth-Lews. Come on, man. None of that shit is real.

To begin a story with George Herbert Walker Bush was the most glamorous boy in the school. It's so genteel.

He talks like people write. He just talks that way.

He's like an Edith Wharton novel. I really thought that Barrel's story was going to end in, and that was the inspiration for No Child Left Behind or something like that.

He was going to tie it around. Although if I'm the McNickel family. You do wonder, as President, if Bennett McNickel, he just would sit there just stewing in his... I wonder if Bennett McNickel was just like, You didn't pull me out of that barrel. I got myself out of that barrel. You bastard.

Next week on the Weekly show, we have Bennett.

But everything, it's so funny when you realize this country was so steeped in all the iconography of its ruling class of protestants and of hiscapitulant. As Carlin would say, it's a big club and you ate in it. It was a country club. That's the default setting that we all work off of. And deviating from that, there is a strange discomfort in that. It's funny when he talks about it. We're 60 years old, and I'm like, Wait, I'm 62. I'm older than America? That doesn't seem right.

I mean, it is like when you talked about that, I was reminded after the election with just the fact that the Democrats haven't won the white vote since 1964. What happened after 1964? The Civil Rights Act. Wow, that really underscores it.

Yeah, it really does. Boy, that's slightly Sobering thought. I know. Slightly sobering, slightly damning. You're just like, oh, yeah. All right. Well, now they got- Correlation and causation might check out. I do think in the next election, I would not be surprised if the Democrats ran Bennett McNickel. I do believe they're going to pull him out of that barrel and put him on the ticket.

Someone from the Greenwich Country Day School, most likely.

Right. What I love about that story, too, is where they were going. It was before he went to Andover. He was at the Greenwich Country Day School, and then he went to Andover, where he was the most glamorous boy in Andover. I think I remember this as a studs turcle novel. Phenomenal. But happy to be back. It is going to be an interesting ride. I am glad that he, in some ways, tempered my melancholy and pessimism and reminded me like, All right, all right, all right. We don't know what's going to happen. We've been here before. Now it's time to move forward. How are our viewers? Are they listeners, viewers on podcast? I don't even know. We have both. What do they got for us? Hopefully, they've had a nice break as well.

Yeah, they gave us some really thoughtful feedback over the break.

Yeah, let me hear.

John, I grew up watching you and enjoy your program all the time. I wish you knew how crazy you have become. Not as bad as Colbert. But nonetheless, very bad.

Very bad. You know what I love about all those? It's always like, I've been a fan of yours my whole life. I love everything you do, but you've really made a turn. I'm like, You I haven't watched a minute of me.

I've got more.

Because I'm the same dumb asshole I have been since the start, unfortunately. Yeah, what's the other? Is it all along that- There's a theme. Yeah, the theme is always like, You were great until now. Yeah. Okay.

You're smiling. You love this.

I'm used to it. It tickles me.

Jon Stewart is an arrogant, self-righteous asshole.

But always, by the way, again, there's been no growth. It's not new. All right, go ahead.

Fuck you for helping push Biden out.

Oh, wow. Okay. I'm still somewhat baffled by that idea that actually Biden, even those closest to him now sheepishly acknowledge what they should have acknowledged a year and a half ago. God bless them if they think, Oh, in this revisionist mindset that actually his vigor and acuity are as good as they've always been, and he would have... I just think that's sadly divorced from the reality. I take no pleasure in that. I take no pleasure in saying it. He felt to me, I'll this in comedic terms. When a comedian comes on and the audience is worried about that comedian as they perform, that's the death of their performance. That's how I felt about, unfortunately, the president, and I don't know how you guys fell.

Oh, yeah. It felt like a high wire act that you were just waiting to see if he fell. Literally, by the way. Yeah, that watching that debate.

Yeah, right. I mean, in terms of it, it's tough. I mean, the debate was the the the apex of it. But I think prior to that, there was... And I think also you have to remember, the bully pulpit requires vigorous pushback, especially in this modern media environment. If your emotional and intellectual reserves have to be managed and in some ways meeted out in just a certain amount of rationing, I'm sorry, you won't be able to do it. And Trump's, unfortunately, his resources for that were endless. But I completely the arrogant asshole part, yeah.

All All of that feedback was from Jason Furman, just so you know.

Damn, Economist. Why? Why?

That's it. Everybody else loves you. Yeah. Come on.

Sorry. Terrible, terrible, terrible. Well, that's great. That's the shit. Look, it's important for us to hear it all out and think about because it's funny in all the water fall of criticism and attacks that come. Generally, there will be something somewhat constructive in some of it. And even though it's a drag to sift through all of it, it is in In some ways you are panning for gold in a river, a torrent of shitty criticism. But sadly, you'll probably find a nugget or two where you're like, Yeah, I should get better at that.

Yeah, it's been helpful to read the comments, honestly, because we've gotten some great feedback or suggestions on topics or people we should talk to.

Yeah. And Brittany, we should have... Let's think about some of those suggestions for topics and people, because look, it's going to be hard to turn our attention off the fire hose for these first... But there is a whole world out there. And speaking of which, by the way, we talked about California earlier. I just want to quickly, again, for anybody out there who is considering, the California Fire Foundation is phenomenal. It's cafirefoundation. Org, if anybody is interested. And certainly, it's not a secret of all those organizations. That happens to be one. But we all, obviously, not to get colloquially, but we all have very good friends and family out there that are really going through it. People want to get in touch with us. What is it, Brittany?

Twitter, We Weekly Show Pod, Instagram, Threads, TikTok, Blue Sky, We Are Weekly Show podcast.

Taking off on Blue Sky, man.

Yeah, we actually really are. Oh, man. You can like and subscribe our YouTube channel, The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart.

Wonderful. As always, thank you again, lead producer, Lauren Walker, producer, Brittany Mamedevik, video editor and engineer, Rob Vittolo, with his baby who is now... How old is the baby now? Rob 11. Audio editor and engineer, Nicole Boyce, researcher, and associate producer, Gillian Spears, executive producer, Chris McShane, and executive producer, Katie gray, who, I must say, also just had a beautiful baby. Yeah. Katie. Little Nora. Katie. Little Nora, so sweet. We wish Katie and her husband, Chris, just the absolute best. They're just the sweetest, most wonderful people. So excited for them as they go along on this journey. And that's that, man. We will see you guys next week. Thanks again. The Weekly Show with Jon Stewart is a Comedy Central podcast. It's produced by Paramount Audio and Bustboy Productions. Paramount Podcasts.