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[00:00:00]

Due to the graphic nature of this murder case, listener discretion is advised this episode includes dramatizations and discussions of murder and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under 13.

[00:00:21]

White male, approximately age 30, cause of death, five shots to his upper torso and right arm, based on my findings in the deceased's broken wristwatch, I'd say his time of death was around 12, 20 a.m..

[00:00:38]

Can you confirm this is the body of federal prohibition?

[00:00:41]

Dale Francis, Carnoy? Yeah, that's him.

[00:00:47]

You fool. You knew him well, Sheriff. As stubborn, Lonewolf never took backup on a case. He was a good agent, though. I'll give him a hint. A good man, Petti. Not many of those around these parts. Hopefully his death will change all that. What do you mean, Sheriff?

[00:01:08]

He wasn't just a local cops snooping around Aguilar. He was a federal agent. Whoever killed Dale Carney just messed with the United States of America and they aren't getting away with it. This is unsolved murders, true crime stories, a podcast original, I'm your host, Carter Roy, and I'm your host, Wendy McKenzie.

[00:01:40]

Every Tuesday, we dive into the world of a real unsolved murder and try to solve the case.

[00:01:46]

You can find episodes of unsolved murders and all other precast originals for free on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream unsolved murders for free on Spotify, just open the app and type unsolved murders in the search bar.

[00:02:02]

This is our first episode on the 1930 murders of federal prohibition agents Dale, Francis, Carnoy and Zacchaeus Raymond Sutton. While the men were killed about six weeks apart, their murderers showcased the rampant violence and corruption linked to the bootlegging industry.

[00:02:19]

This week, we'll cover the ill fated circumstances that led to Dale Carneys demise and Ray Sutton's disappearance. Next week, we'll go deeper into their murder investigations and the theories that have left the nation perplexed for nine decades.

[00:02:39]

We've got all that and more coming up. Stay with us. From an early age, Dale Francis Carney took to fighting for just causes in 1918, when he was 17, he joined the United States Army to fight in World War One when the Great War came to an end.

[00:03:04]

Carney returned stateside and married Francis Elizabeth Brown in Colorado. Together, the young couple had three daughters, Francis, Kathleen and Caroline Francis Jr. died in August 1925, just after she was born.

[00:03:20]

Despite tragedy at home, Carney was a decorated war veteran with a lot of fight left in him and a young family to support. So on July 1st, 1929, the 29 year old joined America's war against alcohol.

[00:03:35]

Carney began his career as a federal prohibition agent working out of Denver, Colorado.

[00:03:40]

He proved himself to be proficient DRI agent and was eventually assigned to cover less animus. And the Baca counties in southeastern Colorado considered some of the most corrupt areas in the state as these two counties bordered the state lines of Kansas, Oklahoma and New Mexico.

[00:03:58]

They were instrumental to crime syndicates that dealt in interstate racketeering.

[00:04:03]

Local gangs and crime families were known to run all kinds of rackets, including prostitution, kidnapping, extortion and most concerning to the Bureau of Prohibition, blackmarket bootlegging to fully grasp the dark underbelly of bootlegging that agent Carney was now charged to stop.

[00:04:22]

It's important to first understand the overall history of the Prohibition era and its naïve hopes and blundering failures.

[00:04:29]

The 18th Amendment was ratified on January 16th, 1919, officially banning the manufacture, sale or transportation of intoxicating liquors.

[00:04:41]

The amendment was supported by several religious and social reform groups, such as the Anti Saloon League, who wholeheartedly believe that banning the sale of alcohol would improve social and economic conditions plaguing the times.

[00:04:56]

These groups saw drunkenness as a source of domestic violence, poverty and overall criminality. If Americans couldn't control their drinking, it was up to the government to control the drink.

[00:05:08]

But simply shutting off the tap didn't make the public's thirst dry up overnight.

[00:05:13]

They would get their fix one way or another, while law abiding citizens closed up their legitimate breweries and stopped the sale of alcohol in their shops. Criminal enterprises took advantage of this sudden loss in supply and created a new black market of bathtub, gin and moonshine.

[00:05:30]

Although the 18th Amendment made the production, transportation and sale of alcohol illegal, it did not explicitly outlaw the consumption of alcohol. With an ever present demand for booze and short supply, bootlegging became a lucrative business for criminal syndicates.

[00:05:49]

Bootleggers worked in secrecy, often making their drink at home or in remote rural locations. Then they transported and sold their alcohol and creative ways to avoid detection by prohibition agents such as Kanae.

[00:06:04]

We'll look at all of this mud. How are we supposed to hand off these barrels of whiskey without leaving a trace? Any half brained brewery will be able to follow our tracks and lock us up.

[00:06:15]

Didn't you bring any Cowsills? Now, I've never even owned a cow, let alone bottom shoes there for you, not Bessie, strap them on to the bottom of your boots. If any nosey dry agent comes looking this way, all he'll see is a bunch of cow prints moving to and from these pastures. Ain't nothing illegal about that.

[00:06:37]

That's genius.

[00:06:41]

But in some cases, the bootleggers didn't even have to conceal their activities. They just had to bribe the right official. Corruption was rampant across all levels of law enforcement.

[00:06:52]

And because so many people didn't take the law seriously. By the late 1920s, the 18th Amendment was rapidly losing support. As such, President Hoover promised his constituents that he would make improvements.

[00:07:06]

On June 24th, 1930, Hoover appointed Amos Waller right Woodcock as the new head of the Federal Prohibition Bureau. With the hard working and austere woodcock at the helm, there was going to be a change no matter what.

[00:07:21]

Like Director Woodcock, Agent Dale Carnegie took his job seriously and was unwilling to turn a blind eye to the corrupt bootlegging industry for over a year.

[00:07:32]

Carney proved himself time and time again, taking part in multiple raids, confiscations and arrests. He was a force to be reckoned with. Prohibition Bureau.

[00:07:43]

John Kyphosis. You're under arrest for the manufacture and sale of alcohol. All right. All right, gentlemen, let's be reasonable here.

[00:07:51]

We all know America needs its nightcap. So how much is this going to cost me here?

[00:07:57]

That Garney? I believe he's trying to give us a bribe.

[00:08:00]

We're not for sale, Mr. Cephus. Everybody needs an extra time in their pockets these days. How many little mouths you got at home?

[00:08:09]

Agent boys, tear it down, all of it. Hey, at least leave the tags.

[00:08:16]

Come on. Mark my words karani, you keep playing with fire, you'll get burned. Proving himself to be an effective prohibition agent, unfortunately made Agent Carney a target of the very crime syndicates that he was working to put behind bars, as a result, harassment became a new normal for the Carney clan.

[00:08:49]

This included receiving threatening letters, creepy telephone calls and even being followed.

[00:08:57]

Friend, I'm home. Oh, Dale, thank goodness. What's wrong, dear?

[00:09:03]

I went to the market to get some groceries and I think we were being followed. Dale, this man, he kept staring at me.

[00:09:11]

And then how many times do I have to tell you you can't let those bootlegging fools shake you? You don't understand, Dale. I was with the girls. What if they'd come to the house?

[00:09:22]

I'm scared you're married to a federal agent. I won't let anything happen to you or the girls.

[00:09:28]

And what about you? You know, I can take care of myself. It just takes one determined fool, Dale.

[00:09:35]

Just one. And with all your late night drives alone. Oh, I'm just worried.

[00:09:42]

OK, can't you talk to the agency, get yourself some backup and what scare all the leads.

[00:09:50]

The whole point is to be as inconspicuous as possible. Besides, half the men with badges are on the bootlegging payrolls. I'd rather risk it alone than work beside a rat.

[00:09:59]

But nothing's going to happen to me, I promise.

[00:10:03]

Despite Kearneys assurances to his wife Frances, he would be unable to make good on his word. The more carny gained notoriety for his successful seizures and arrests, the more he was becoming a thorn in the heel of the bootlegging world. And they were going to remove it one way or another.

[00:10:25]

Coming up, the final days of Agent Carneys life. History, politics, true crime, the new Spotify original from podcast has it all.

[00:10:38]

Hi, I'm Carter and I am thrilled to tell you about the new series, Very Presidential with Ashley Flowers.

[00:10:45]

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[00:11:30]

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[00:11:35]

Follow very presidential with Ashley flowers free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

[00:11:45]

Now back to the story. In the summer of 1930, 30 year old federal prohibition agent Dale F. Carney made big strides for his department with successful confiscations and arrests of local bootleggers.

[00:12:02]

Unfortunately for Carney, his successes caught the attention of several crime syndicates vying to keep their foothold in the Colorado brew business.

[00:12:11]

Unbeknownst to him, Carney's days were numbered.

[00:12:15]

On July 1st, 1930, Carney, along with over 60 other prohibition agents, attended a three day conference held by the Bureau of Prohibition in Denver.

[00:12:26]

The newly hired Prohibition director, Amos Woodcock, famously favored brains and not brawn and began a series of updates to ensure that his agents were properly enforcing the 18th Amendment.

[00:12:38]

During this conference, federal prohibition agents were encouraged to seek higher education and were trained on the importance of keeping a paper trail.

[00:12:47]

This new way of working ensured that the bureau was able to quantitatively track the successes and failures of their agents, while Carney and his colleagues were schooled on the latest Prohibition bureau tactics.

[00:12:59]

His wife, Francis, received some alarming calls at home. Yes, girls, lunch is almost ready. Hello. Hello, who is this?

[00:13:31]

It's just a wrong number, Francis. Don't get yourself worked up. It's just wrong.

[00:13:40]

Hello.

[00:13:44]

Look, this isn't funny if you're going to call, say something. Listen here, you have no idea who you're messing with. Don't call here again.

[00:14:02]

Hey, girls, where are you? Come back inside right now.

[00:14:11]

When Carney returned home on July 3rd, he reviewed the family phone log with his wife.

[00:14:17]

Look, two calls in one day. It's not a big deal, Fran. It's probably just some strung up bootlegger playing a prank tale. The way he was breathing, it was bone chilling.

[00:14:30]

Don't overreact. It was just a phone call.

[00:14:33]

No, it was, too. And I'm sure they'll keep happening. We can't give in to fear.

[00:14:40]

That's what those mobsters want. At the end of the day. They want us to fear them.

[00:14:43]

And not one part of you is afraid. I've seen men die on the front lines, Fran, all of these phone calls and letters or whatnot. It's just all silly games to me, as always.

[00:14:55]

Carney was unfazed by the threatening calls and spent the night adjusting his field reports to meet the bureau's latest standards.

[00:15:03]

The following day, Carney, Francis and their daughters spent the July 4th holiday watching fireworks in their neighborhood. Carney took his wife on an intimate dinner date at one of the best restaurants in town, the Seattle Rock Cafe.

[00:15:16]

But the Seattle Rock Cafe wasn't just Carney St. Spot. The brothers that own the restaurant, Dan and Joe's Guarino, were some of his most valuable informants. Mrs. Carney, it's a pleasure to finally meet you. Thank you, Mr Scurrah. You know, your food is amazing. I love the Nyok. Thank you. I'll send your regards to the chef.

[00:15:42]

Dayle, I believe you forgot something last time you were in. Thanks, Joe. I appreciate it. What was that?

[00:15:52]

I have eyes and ears everywhere, dear.

[00:15:54]

So this is where you go to work every day? One of my many offices. I know you worry about me, friend, but sometimes when I'm on the job, I simply sit, eat and listen.

[00:16:06]

That explains why I've had to let out your pants twice since you took this job. Indeed.

[00:16:13]

Cheers, friend. Now, I don't want to alarm you, but I believe we have an audience. What? Who? Wait, you got to be casual about this kind of thing. Slowly turn your head like you're stretching your neck and tell me what you see.

[00:16:31]

There's a group of men, definitely Italian. I'm one of them. Oh. Oh, my Lord. Dale. What one of them is looking right at us here. He spotted us. That one in the middle, that's a dionisio, a what? Sicilian mobsters that have a hand in every racket in this town, too.

[00:17:00]

He's pointing right at you. Why would he be pointing at you? Should we leave? I'll get my bag.

[00:17:07]

No, Fran, I told you, I'm a federal agent. They can't touch us.

[00:17:12]

Then what do we do?

[00:17:15]

We sit, we eat and we listen.

[00:17:19]

Bootlegging was a booming business for crime families all across America. This included the Denisof family who had ties to the infamous Black Hans society.

[00:17:29]

The Black Hans society, also referred to as LaManno Nera was an Italian crime organization that was notorious for its use of intimidation, extortion and violence.

[00:17:41]

They employed a strict code of silence and silencing to make sure that even if one of their members was arrested, a judge never heard enough evidence to lock anyone up.

[00:17:52]

It is highly likely that on that fateful July Fourth night, as Don Francis enjoyed dinner at the Saddle Rock Cafe, it was decided that Agent Kanae knew too much for the Black Hand's liking and he was to be silenced.

[00:18:09]

The following day, July 5th, was like any other, Dale Carney woke up, did some work around the house and took his car in for some maintenance at his local auto shop.

[00:18:19]

When evening rolled around, Carney drove his recently serviced 1928 Chevrolet sedan 20 miles north to the sleepless town of Aguilar, Colorado.

[00:18:30]

Carney had no qualms about pursuing a late night search and destroy mission alone. But while in pursuit of a lead, Carney found himself in some more car trouble just before midnight, Carney managed to drive into an egg repair garage for some help.

[00:18:51]

The night mechanic determined that Carney's car broke down due to hydro locking thanks to a loosened oil line and leak with no telephone in the auto shop.

[00:19:01]

Carney walked to the Aguilar village hall and called in for his local mechanic to drive up into his car home while waiting for his tow.

[00:19:09]

Carney stopped by the nearby Alpine Rose Cafe in search of a quick meal and a familiar face.

[00:19:16]

Unfortunately, the only familiar face in the Alpine Rose Cafe belonged to James Marino, who was dining at a corner booth with three others.

[00:19:26]

Marino had once been the owner of the Alpine Race Cafe, that is, until Carney had arrested the proprietor for the illegal sale of alcohol. Well, I'll be if it isn't agent Dale Carney.

[00:19:38]

James baby, ain't that the pro he who looked you up last year can't believe he has the audacity to show his face in here after what he did to you.

[00:19:48]

Oh, shoot. I think he spotted us. He's walking over quick duniya drinks.

[00:19:55]

Evening, gentlemen. Ladies, what do you want? Carney We ain't doing nothing wrong here. Nothing wrong, huh?

[00:20:06]

Since when did they start selling cheap whiskey at the Alpine again?

[00:20:10]

I thought you stepped down from your post.

[00:20:12]

You better watch your mouth, CARNEY Before I look, Agent Carney, is it? We don't want any trouble here. We've just been sipping on soda all night long. Oh, Mr..

[00:20:23]

Give up the act, Marino. Let me see the shot bottle shot bottle. I have no such thing.

[00:20:29]

I've corrected my ways ever since you arrested me. Carney Now if you will, please leave us alone. I'd like to enjoy the rest of my night with my gal and friends.

[00:20:40]

Sure. Just be careful, Marino. I'm always watching.

[00:20:46]

Same to you, Agent Carney. Marino brushed off his run in with Carney and returned his focus on his friends.

[00:20:54]

That is, until they all heard the sound of gunfire in the distance. What was that? I don't know. I can't make out anything from the window. Sounds like a few rounds to me, James. Shall we go check it out? Why bother? It's probably just some sloshed towny getting his kicks off now. Who wants another shot?

[00:21:17]

Soon after night, Marshal Henry Fosset walked into the cafe.

[00:21:21]

Hey, Marshal Fosset, did you see that prophy KANAE tonight, agent Dale Carnoy. He's an Aguilar.

[00:21:29]

Yeah, he came in here looking for you, then started bothering me and my friends like we were up to no good.

[00:21:35]

I'm sure you're all angels, Moreno. That's right.

[00:21:38]

I told him I changed my ways. Marshal James, baby, what about those gunshots?

[00:21:44]

We heard gunshots. Yeah, we heard about five or six shots go off not too long ago towards Main Street.

[00:21:51]

Well, why didn't you tell me that?

[00:21:53]

First Marshal Fosset rushed out of the Alpine Rose Cafe in search of Agent Carney en route, he passed the owner of the Green Light Cafe, Mike Lazaroff.

[00:22:05]

Lazaroff told a similar tale of events he had recently heard gunshots go off towards the arcade.

[00:22:11]

Hotel Marschall Fosset continue down the dimly lit street to find Agent Dale F Carneys lifeless body on the sidewalk based on multiple witness accounts.

[00:22:24]

Kanae left the Alpine Rose Cafe around midnight while heading back to his broken down car. It is believed that a vehicle approached Kanae from behind, then five shots ripped through a wooden fence parallel to the street and tore into the unassuming body of federal prohibition agent Dale Cohn.

[00:22:45]

The medical examiner believed Kanae died instantly after finding Dale Carneys body. Marshall Fossett set into motion a chain of events that would bring a team of dogged investigators to Colorado.

[00:22:59]

The Carni Investigation Task Force was on their way.

[00:23:07]

Up next, we'll hear more about the Carni Investigation Task Force and how their efforts led to the unsolved murder of a second prohibition agent. And now back to our story. On the night of July 5th, 1930, 30 year old federal prohibition agent Dale Afghani left home in pursuit of a bootlegging lead while stranded in the town of Aguilar, Colorado.

[00:23:33]

Agent Carney was shot and killed by unknown assailants in the early hours of July 6th.

[00:23:38]

But as the first federal agent to be murdered in the state of Colorado, Carneys death would neither go unnoticed nor unchallenged immediately following his death.

[00:23:50]

A team of experienced federal agents assembled in Colorado to form the Carni Investigative Task Force.

[00:23:57]

With growing pressure from national and local media attention, Kanae task force agents understood the delicate nature of the investigation and were desperate to solve the case.

[00:24:08]

But with little to go on, the investigative team decided the best way to catch Carneys murderer was to go after any and all criminal bootlegging organizations specific to Carneys Field work in Colorado and New Mexico.

[00:24:22]

Task force agents John Richardson and William Naans focused their sights close to the scene of the crime and Aguilar Co., targeting local businesses and proprietors to glean more information.

[00:24:34]

To that end, Agents Richardson and Lance arrested James Marino as a material witness. He'd seen Agent Carney the night of his death at the Alpine Rose Cafe.

[00:24:45]

But Moreno either didn't know anything or simply refused to provide it out of fear of retribution from the black hand society. He was a dead end, so the task force decided to attack their next lead head on. All right.

[00:25:00]

Boyce Moreno isn't talking, but who needs him anyways? We already know who's behind Carney's head. The Dionysius. Yeah.

[00:25:08]

Problem is, we've got nothing solid linking them to the crime.

[00:25:12]

Sure we do. Carney told his wife that a dionisio pointed him out at the Seattle Rock, so they dined at the same restaurant.

[00:25:19]

That still doesn't give us probable cause. We need more to go off. We need a motive.

[00:25:25]

Let's go find one. Based on Francis Carney's July Fourth account, the task force firmly believed Carneys murder had to be connected to the Dionysiac family and the secretive black hand society.

[00:25:39]

So in mid-August, Agents Richardson and Nance led a raid on the CEO's properties.

[00:25:45]

They arrested two members of the Dionysiac clan, along with two others, for the murder of Dale Afkhami. But they still didn't know why he'd been targeted.

[00:25:58]

What did you have against Carney? Sure. He made moonshining difficult for you, but he made it hard on everyone.

[00:26:04]

He was a hard nosed prohibition agent unwilling to be bought.

[00:26:10]

You know, I've got nothing to say about that. Find someone else to spill their guts to you. That's it. Someone else. Someone else was pulling the strings. Someone with a real motive, someone you benefit from possibly work for. Why else would you risk a murder sheet?

[00:26:27]

Now you're just grasping at straws. That's all this is.

[00:26:31]

But who not Roma kyphosis in lockup. That leaves Carlino. It was the Carlino brothers, wasn't it? We know your family works for Pete and Sam Carlino.

[00:26:46]

We don't work for anyone, although the Dionysius remained tight lipped. It seemed clear to the task force that they, along with the Sicilian Carlino Brothers, had a hand in Dale Carneys murder. Both families were linked to the Black Hand Society, and both were trying to expand their rackets in Colorado. But Carney got in both of their ways.

[00:27:10]

However, it was next to impossible to find the connection that could lead to a clear cut case in front of a judge.

[00:27:17]

Pete and Sam Carlinhos. Reputation for violence had clearly scared all possible witnesses into following the code of silence. No one was willing to talk.

[00:27:28]

No matter who the Kanae task force grilled for information, it was clear that the fear of retaliation had gotten to them first. The Sicilian brothers were notorious for their use of black hand society, silencing tactics to ensure that their lucrative bootlegging business was untouchable.

[00:27:47]

What else happened that night and Aguilar, the night Agent Kanae died? I don't know anything. You don't have to be scared.

[00:27:55]

We can protect you.

[00:27:57]

You can't protect me. You couldn't even protect one of your own men. What did you just say?

[00:28:02]

Nance, calm down. Sorry for that. Look, if you know anything about his death, anything at all, even if it's just a rumor floating around town, then I need you to tell us. I don't know anything, OK?

[00:28:17]

But what I can glean from Carneys death was that it was a warning. No one is untouchable around these parts. That's not true.

[00:28:25]

We're federal agents. We can keep you safe. Please just work with us here. Dale Carnegie was a good, honest man. I'm sure he was.

[00:28:36]

He's got a grieving wife and kids, and I've got loved ones, too. I'm not risking their lives.

[00:28:41]

For a dead man desperate to solve the case, the Carni Investigation Task Force doggedly pursued any and all known leads with connections to the bootlegging businesses. Eventually, someone was bound to flip on the Carlino Brothers.

[00:28:57]

One of the most tenacious members of the task force was 57 year old prohibition agent Zacchaeus Raymond Sutton, a hard working and incorruptible man who had personal ties to the late Dale Kanae, despite working in neighboring states.

[00:29:14]

Agent Sutton and Kanae had worked together to investigate bootlegging rackets across the Colorado and New Mexico border.

[00:29:21]

As such, Sutton set his sights on John Campanella, one of New Mexico's most elusive and successful bootleggers with strong ties to the Colorado crime families.

[00:29:33]

Like most agents of the time, Sutton relied on a network of informants to help him find new leads.

[00:29:39]

Thanks to the intel provided by an informant regarding a moonshine delivery agent, Sutton led a team of agents to raid Campanelli Cimarron, New Mexico, property.

[00:29:50]

Not only did the agents find barrels of alcohol, they also discovered Campanelli private records, which led to his eventual arrest and seizure of his buildings, while Agents Sutton had landed a big win for the Federal Bureau of Prohibition.

[00:30:05]

He had also made an enemy for life.

[00:30:08]

Word spread quickly that Agent Sutton was a marked man. On August 28, 1930, Agent Sutton left his hotel to meet with one of his informants, James Perry Caldwell, about 20 miles south of Raton, New Mexico.

[00:30:31]

Sutton knew this informant fairly well as Caldwell had previously worked as a prohibition agent.

[00:30:37]

That is, until he was released from his duties due to corruption. Despite Caldwell's blurred loyalties set and repeatedly relied on Caldwells information as it had led to small successes in the war on alcohol.

[00:30:51]

Which might explain why, just like Carnie Sutton went out to pursue a lead that day all alone, local Undersheriff George Fletcher recalled that he saw Agent Sutton standing beside his 1929 Pontiac sedan on a long stretch of road, assuming that Sutton was on the job.

[00:31:13]

Fletcher simply waved at his friend and drove right on past him.

[00:31:18]

But Agent Raymond Sutton was never to be seen again. Thanks again for tuning into unsolved murders. We'll be back next time with part two of the 1930 murders of federal prohibition agents Dale, Frances, Carnoy and Zacchaeus Raymond Sutton. For more information on agents Carney and Sutton, amongst the many sources we used. We found Chuck Hohnen and Billy Charlton's Trail of Shadows extremely helpful to our research.

[00:31:55]

You can find all episodes of unsolved murders and all other Parkhurst originals for free on Spotify, not only to Spotify already have all of your favorite music, but now Spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy all of your favorite cast originals, like unsolved murders for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream unsolved murders on Spotify.

[00:32:18]

Just open the app and type unsolved murders in the search bar. We'll see you next time if we live till next time.

[00:32:30]

Unsolved Murders, True Crime Stories was created by Max Cutler and his Sparkasse studio's original executive producers include Max and Ron Cutler, Sound Design by Kenny Hobbs with production assistants by Ron Shapiro, Carly Madden and Isabel Away. This episode of Unsolved Murders was written by Jane Oh with writing assistance by Abigail Cannon. The amazing cast of Voice Actors includes Tom Bower, Bill Butz, Joe Hernandez, Kidd, Jordan Harris, Marxian and Jan Wong. It stars Wendy McKenzie and Carter Roy.

[00:33:08]

It's the most powerful position in American politics and arguably the world, but behind the oath to preserve, protect and defend, lie, dark secrets supposed to leave some legacies in disgrace.

[00:33:22]

Don't forget to check out the new Spotify original from past very presidential with Ashley Flowers every Tuesday through the 2020 election. Host Ashley Flowers shines a light on the darker side of the American presidency, exposing wildly true stories about history's most high profile leaders.

[00:33:42]

To hear more follow. Very presidential with Ashley flowers free on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.