I'm Ayesha Rosco, and this is a Sunday Story where we go beyond the news to bring you one big story. Since the COVID pandemic, lots of conspiracy theories have been floating around the Internet. For some, these ideas and the conspiracy thinking that fuels them may not have had much of an impact. But for others, they can feel urgent and personal. This is the case for journalist Zack Mac. Mac's father holds a number of conspiratorial views. He believes, among other things, that a shadowy cabal secretly runs the world, a group he calls the Globalist. Last year, as Zack tried to make sense of his dad's beliefs, he began recording their conversations, with his dad's permission, of course. Here's a moment from one conversation in which Zack's dad urges Zack to start stockpiling emergency supplies.

You really want to store up two months worth of food and water because they probably won't be able to pump water throughout the city because that's all controlled by computers and electronics. The EMP is going to shut down everything electronic. I know it sounds like conspiracy theory, but they're going to do this. This is what they're planning, and I just want to have you be prepared, okay?

Today on the Sunday, Today's story, a look at what happens to one family in this age of misinformation and conspiracy theories. A conversation with reporter Zack Mac when we return. Donald Trump is back in the White House and making a lot of moves very quickly. Keep track of everything going on in Washington with the NPR Politics podcast. Every day, we break down the latest news and explain why it matters to you. The NPR Politics Podcast. Listen every day. Public media counts on your support to ensure that the reporting and programs you depend on thrive. Make a recurring donation today to get special access to more than 20 NPR podcasts. Perks like sponsor-free listening, bonus episodes, early access, and more. Start supporting what you love today at plus. Npr. Org. Planet Money is there. From California's most expensive fires ever. This is my home home. Yeah.

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It's ashes. To the potentially largest deportation in US history. They're going to come to the businesses. They're going to come to the restaurants. They're going to come here. Planet Money. We go to the places at the center of the story, the Planet Money podcast from NPR. We're back with a Sunday story and reporter, Zack Mac, who spent the last year documenting his father's conspiratorial thinking and its effect on his family. Mac says his goal was to bring his father, quote, back to reality. He turned his reporting into a new series called Alternate Realities for NPR's Embedded Podcast. Zack Mac joins us now. Welcome to the podcast.

Hello, Ayesha. Thank you for having me.

To start, can you tell me a little bit about your family? What was it like growing up for you?

I grew up in the East Bay, San Francisco Bay Area, right next to Berkeley, Oakland, very middle class, me, mom, sister, public schools. I guess one of the wrinkles in my upbringing is that my mom is a liberal Jewish woman and my dad is an increasingly conservative Christian. So growing up, I went to both temple and church, and my parents always had very differing ideologies about the world.

Okay. So when did you feel like your dad was starting to become maybe a different person than the person that you knew? What did that look like?

So growing up, he never really talked about politics. He never really expressed much interest in them. But I did know that he was always skeptical about vaccines. I did know that he hated the Clintons and that he generally voted Republican. And then I think around 2019, he got an iPad. And I specifically remember in 2019, him trying to tell me that Mark Zuckerberg wasn't really the creator of Facebook, that the government was really behind Facebook. And then once the pandemic hit, it was really starting up with the Bill Gates conspiracies and vaccines and all that stuff, I think, is when things really started to change.

Then it came to a turning point, right?

Yeah. A year ago, we had a big family blowout over Christmas. Things were not going very well within the family. Shortly after that, I confronted him about some of his beliefs, and I said, Hey, I think you're being radicalized online. His response to that was to send me a list of 10 predictions that he said would all take place sometime in 2024 and challenged me to a bet for $10,000 that all 10 of these predictions would happen within the year. When they do, I will see once and for all that he's right.

When all these things happen, then you will realize that I'm not as big a crackpot as you think I am, and that these are not conspiracy theories. These are reality.

He had outlined all of these predictions, and it was all pointing to some massive government upheaval that he thought was going to take place sometime in 2024. It was like Trump was going to be reinstated without an election. People like Joe Biden, Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi would all be convicted of treason, that our country would come under martial law. It was all these very politically apocalyptic type events that he thought would be taking place within the year.

But was this in line with what you had been hearing from your dad? Did you have a sense of where he was getting these ideas from?

Yeah. During the pandemic, he got into these self-proclaimed profits online, and he had really glommed onto this woman named Julie Green, and she was saying all this stuff about government upheaval and all these people will be going down for treason and martial law, and that there'd be an tea, blackouts throughout the country, just all this stuff. I am the great revealer. Meet Julie Green, my father's preferred prophet. This is a prophetic word. I'm very excited to give this It's just the authoritative power of God coming through me. She's a blonde, middle-aged pastor. A great fall is coming, a fall of a global cabal. A great fall- She sits in an office chair in a drab-looking room and rattles off a lot of prophecies. My children, 2024 will be a year like no other. She's part of a growing movement within Christianity that emphasizes spiritual warfare and politics. God's saying this, Don't put up with this anymore. Global, globalism, the elite's global control. Dad told me he found her a couple of years ago and watches her three to four times a week. Woe to you, enemies of Almighty God. Overthrow of a rogue government. Every stolen election will be overturned.

I am stopping their ultimate terrorist attack that would bring in martial law and complete shutdown of society as a whole.

Well, I I know about prophets, and I've definitely seen people prophesy in my life. And I mean, in general, with prophets, you always got to check the record. Are their prophecies correct? It It sounds like your dad might have been hearing things that aligned with his view of the world, maybe in a way that's just stretched beyond reality. What has your dad said that resonates with him about these sorts of propheses?

Yeah. This all comes through his faith and his understanding of faith. He believes deeply now in prophets and just the understanding that God is continuing to speak through people through prophets the way he did in the Old Testament. His belief through prophets comes through that. He explained it to me once.

It's like the old saying is seeing is believing. But in the spiritual world, it's just the opposite. By that, I mean, you have to believe it first in order to see it manifest.

This all seems so personal and really just possibly destructive to your family. Why did they agree to be a part of this project?

Things with the family had already become so strained that we were in a tough spot when all of this started. I think for my dad, when I first posed the idea, right when he sent me the bet and his predictions, I said, I would like to interview you over the course of the year, and maybe I could turn this into a podcast about how the year went. He was excited. First of all, he thought he was going to be right about everything. I think he was excited to share that news and prove me wrong in a public way. My dad was excited and has been supportive throughout the process. My mom and sister, they were also supportive because I think they just felt like things had gotten so bad. This couldn't really make things worse, and maybe it could help. Maybe it could help him see himself differently and also be held accountable with these beliefs. Now he was on the hook. This stuff to come true by the end of 2024, or he was going to be wrong. He was going to lose the bet. It was like a 'Hell, Mary' play at the end of the game, one last chance to try to salvage the family and see if we could change his mind about some of this stuff.

And there had been difficulties between your mom and your dad and your sister and your dad, on their own, right?

Yeah, there's been quite a bit of difficulties within the family. Obviously, just the differing beliefs between my mom and father, different ideologies, has always been a point of tension within the family. But as he has gotten increasingly into conspiracy theories, that's really been hard for my mom. She just does not buy into any of this stuff. That's been really difficult to see her husband really not share the same reality as her. Then my sister is dealing with a little bit of a different conflict, which is she is queer, and she came out to him a couple of years ago, and that just did not go well. He's not been particularly supportive of her sexuality. That has just been a great point of tension in the family as well.

I can understand how having a partner who does not share your reality would be very straining for a marriage. But your parents have been together a long time, right? Yeah. What is your mom saying?

Yeah, they've been together for 40 years, and it has gotten really hard for her. I think she's put up with a lot over the and now it's starting to reach a breaking point for her. It's my wishful thinking that he will realize if he steps back and looks at the whole picture, that he's not grounded in any reality, and that he'll have an awakening, and I will have a marriage and a family.

That sounds so difficult and so hard. And so personal, was there a point where, given how fragile your family was, you considered dropping this project or talking through maybe some other measures for reconciliation?

I've wrest with it from day one, whether or not this is a good idea. I wish I could tell you that I'm absolutely positive believe that it still is. But I thought that it was a story that would really resonate with people. I thought that my situation in a lot of ways was not unique and that families all across the country are experiencing something similar, that conspiracy theories have just become so rampant and pervasive in society, misinformation, all that stuff. I thought a lot of people would connect to it. Throughout the process, I've just had the full support of my family. All of them participated. At no point did anyone back out or say, You shouldn't do this. Everyone has been supportive, and so that's helped quite a bit. But yeah, it's tough. I'm not used to making personal stories. I'm not used to reporting on my own family. It has been a challenging experience.

When we come back, 2024 comes to an end, and With it, Zack and his dad check the list after their year-long bet.

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We're here to cover federal buyouts, the cost of deportation, and so much more. Tune in to NPR's The Indicator from Planet Money. We're back with the Sunday story, and we're talking to reporter Zack Mac about the impact conspiracy theories have had on his and what that has meant for his whole family. So, Zack, at the end of the year, obviously, none of the things on your dad's list came to pass. It was a moment you had been waiting for and hoping it would bring a moment of realization for your dad. So what happened?

Well, when we first made the bet, my dad made me promise that at the end, I would say once he had won and all these things happened that I would say, Wow, dad, you were right and I was wrong. And I said, Okay, but you have to say that to me if I'm right. And he agreed to that. So at the end of the year, when I was 10 and 0, and he was over 10 on his predictions, obviously, I made him say that back to me.

Okay. All right. So I'm going to say to you, sincerely and honestly and heartfelt, that, wow, Zack, I was wrong. You were correct.

Thank you. I wish I could tell you that dad changed his mind and that the family was able to heal. However- You're really prefacing that?

Yes. Because however, just because this has not happened in 2024, doesn't make any of these less valid or less real. I guarantee you, you will see by the end of 2025 that all 10 of these have legs. And I still am 100% positive that all these are true.

So your explanation for why these things did not yet come to pass is that you just got the timeline wrong.

Yes.

Unfortunately, but unsurprisingly, dad turned to the failed prophecy playbook. He blamed it on the timeline. We were right back where we started. You You still believe what you believe, and I still believe that that's false.

Correct.

Dad's not changing. It's not the outcome I was hoping for, but here we are. So now what? What happens to Kiera, what happens to mom, and where does that leave me? The bet was over, but we still needed to assess the damage and see if dad was willing to take any steps towards repair. As you can see, even though he lost and acknowledged that he lost, he still is not coming away from these beliefs. He still thinks that he's correct and that these things will just happen later on. This is the thing that happens. I read a lot of research and books about these types of doomsday cults or prophets or big predictions. When they inevitably don't happen, the excuse is often, Oh, we just got the timeline wrong, and it's just going to happen next year or in two years or however long. But yeah, you can see that he's not backing away from any of this stuff, which was disappointing. It's really unfortunate, and it's going to cause continued problems for the family.

Well, I guess you and your dad were able to have these conversations and figure out at least some co-existing. But how about your sister and your mother? How have they been grappling with? Because there wasn't some aha moment, and he said, Oh, I was totally wrong, which generally doesn't happen, right? How are your mother and sister grappling with this?

They have both made the decision to back further and further away from him, which feels like a natural consequence his actions and his beliefs. My sister and dad are not really speaking at the moment, and my mom moved into a different bedroom. She's been sleeping in a different bedroom, and now they are in the process of getting separated. So 40 years of marriage, and she's backing away, and my sister is backing away. And yeah, that's the state of things at the moment.

What is your dad saying about this?

He's struggling to understand how we got here himself, and he feels like we are being very judgmental of him and his beliefs.

All three of you are judging me very harshly. And That's what's causing the rift. I can accept you and love you and have my beliefs and accept your beliefs. You can't accept my beliefs without judging me.

So your dad is saying that you are not able to accept his beliefs without judging him. How do you respond to that?

Yeah, I think it's not just as simple as we're judging him for his beliefs, we're also judging him for his actions. Some of the actions that come along with these beliefs are things like, he's been hoarding survivalist supplies. There's several generators in my parents' home now, and he's moved some of their money without consulting my mom into things like precious metals because he thinks the banks are going to collapse. Some of this stuff comes along with real actions, and she feels like she can't trust this person. There's also just the real fundamental differing of reality and their inability to exist in the same reality. And I understand why you would want to back away from a person who you have nothing in common with about the way you see the world. It doesn't mean we don't love him. It doesn't mean we don't care about him. But I do think there just got to be a breaking point.

You set out to win a bet, and in the process, you hoped that your dad would see the light. But this story really ends where it began, which is with a family that's been torn apart by a father's beliefs. What are you hoping that the audience walks away feeling?

I think for people hearing this, I would hope that if they're going through something similar, if they know someone in this situation, that this show helps their ability to understand what's happening in the world, what's happening with people who have gotten caught up in some of these ideas, learn how to talk to them a little differently or understand them a little bit better, to be curious, to ask questions, that it doesn't always have to be an argument. But also that there does need to be accountability for beliefs and actions as well. But this show was made with as much love as I could put into it.

I think that's definitely felt in this conversation and in the podcast, the love that you have for your father and that he has for you. Zack, thank you so much for bringing this really tough story, but a real story that a lot of people are going through. And thank you for sharing that. And thank you to your family for sharing that.

Yeah. Thank you so much. I hope people check out the show.

That's reporter Zack Mac. His new series, Alternate Realities, is out now in the Embedded podcast feed. You can hear this series wherever you get your podcast. This episode of The Sunday Story was produced by Andrew Mambo and was edited by Jenny Schmidt and Lianna Simstrom. The mix engineer for this episode was Jimmy Keely. The Sunday Story team includes Justine Yann. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. We always love hearing from you, so feel free to reach out to us at the Sunday Story at npr. Org. I'm Ayesha Rosco. Up first is back in your feed tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, enjoy the rest of your weekend.

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On the Embedded podcast.

No. It's called Denying a Sweet Home of Speech.

It's misinformation. Like so many Americans, my dad has gotten swept up in conspiracy theories.

These are not conspiracy theories. These are reality.

I spent the year following him down the rabbit hole, trying to get him back. Listen to alternate realities on the Embedded podcast from NPR. All episodes available now. Whatever your job is, wherever you're from, NPR is a resource for all Americans. Our mission is to create a more informed public. We do that by providing free access to independent, rigorous journalism that's accountable to the public. Federal Funding for Public Media provides critical support of this work. Learn more about how to safeguard it at protectmypublicmedia. Org.