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This is the BBC. This podcast is supported by advertising outside the UK. BBC sounds, music, radio, podcasts, this podcast refers to child sexual abuse and contains interviews that some listeners may find upsetting, as well as some occasional strong language. Episode nine. Her voice is coming. And let me just test it here.

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I hope I can remember.

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This is Lorraine when making the series. She was the very first survivor I sat down and spoke to.

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It's just us chatting normally on you at any time. You're totally controlling.

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Lorraine Kennedy is one of the original survivors who brought the case against George Give Me Back in 1993. She's also Chalky White sister, where she's here with her husband. Know a keen gardener.

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I'm just thinking I want to see if that noise comes through to me because I like I know a little bit of background noise is good.

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Will you stop doing that? Because he. Yeah, he's recording.

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How are you ever. Yeah. They'll be silly. I didn't even hear you used was the thing that. So, Louise, can you pop this on just like I have like that? Yeah, when you're ready.

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This is Louise Kennedy, Lorraine's daughter, just to give you some headphones as well. This is a clip of just nothing, it's just me going into the house, so you could be like, oh, just I. But I thought you might want to hear because it's she she was it was kind of lovely, I thought. And so we heard about six hours and round and oh, I should say there's a big rigmarole. When I went in the first time I was like parking out the road.

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Oh yeah. She was like the first she. What do you think? So the second time I just drove in the parked in their.

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I didn't even ask permission this time, I just drove straight into St. Petersburg. How are you doing? Yeah, flying. Not a bother. Nice to see you. You did a lovely, great stuff. Oh, you got a nice little bit of in here, don't you? Yes. Lovely. Very nice. How's the head of the knees? Yeah. You can hear the crutches. Always the you know, you didn't even spot you there.

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Oh, that's just sums them up completely. That was her spot in the house. In the kitchen. That's her. Isn't always was her spot. Lorraine Kennedy passed away during the making of this series. She was just 62 when she died of lung cancer. She never got to see George Ghiberti stand trial. At the moment, listening to her, listening to this and being part of it is is a piece of her that we still have. And as much as I want to hear and don't want to hear when it's over, it's over.

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But I'm so glad you got us to talk to. I'm just sorry she's not here to your tears and. Because she wanted to tell us. It's been hard. First of all, because I know what's coming. I know her voice is coming on us. I've just heard her voice, but I know her voice is coming. I apologize for her like this, Cassilis, but if you watch my mom, you'll know exactly I'm with Louise in her apartment.

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We're chatting about her late mom, Lorraine, and watching old videos on our phone.

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You broke the speed limit, limit. Room you get go for it and it's the laugh at the start.

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That's her laugh. That's exactly. And I didn't even ask permission. This time I just drove straight.

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And it's all right to be the worst. How are you doing?

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Yeah, I first met Lorraine over two years ago. It was the starting point of the series and she welcomed me into her home straight away. And I always remember having a conversation with a very good friend of mine said everybody has something deep down that they take to the grave. And she said she says and I go and she said to me, no, that's ridiculous. No, you should never. And I said, well, I have something that I will never, ever, ever tell.

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And I guarantee you. So I wouldn't have if it hadn't come out. I wouldn't have said I, you know.

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The a swimming pool and Dublin City is distinctive. It's a beautiful old pool with a gallery on each side. It was built in 1960 for employees of the brewery and their families. I went a couple of years ago, but when this all came out and. The air, I said it myself, I have to go back down and have to wait until I went down anyway and I was abused, as you go in before you go into the pool, there's a gymnasium and a squash court.

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And as you go in there that you go up the stairs and there was a balcony, you could look over to the squash. And my mom used to go over there and my memory was, you know, my head up against the thing. And so I thought it was really high. This is the balcony, the balcony. And I couldn't get over how long she was. Now, he must have always known because we know it, never anybody there.

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But the smell of squash court, I cannot. This is a very distinct smell. It's like a sweaty type of smell. Lorraine was a swimmer with the Guinness Club, just like her brother Charlie, at that point in the mid to late 60s, George Clooney was a young coach there. It was the first club he coached in. I'm not a and I know I was actually when we started swimming, now it depends on was it six or eight?

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I think it was six. So I would say it was six. Then I would have been about eight. Eight or nine. He spotted it like there was something in me that he knew I wouldn't tell. But why he targeted me, I think because I was I obviously was quite. And. I was told, you know, I wouldn't want I wouldn't have been able to articulate it to anybody. As we talked, Lorraine recounted a particularly dark experience one day after swimming, her father was giving George give me a lift home.

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She was just 10 years old when she sat in the back seat with Gibney as her father drove. The job was dropping him home and I was in the back of the car. But I think if he was sitting on his lap. But he just put his hand over into my hands and when I was getting out of the car, he just went still to.

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In other words, don't open your mouth. That was the only time you ever told me not to tell. He put his finger up to his neck. Yeah, just watch. Would give me have been talking to your dad at that time, because I would almost think he would have to be still conversing with no, you know, I can't really remember. No, I know I want to remember I won't be able to remember because I do know my mind was kind of blank it just like I remember not thinking of anything and why I remember him doing that.

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I was getting out of the car, but that stayed with me prior to this day. And I, you know, I could still see his face. Those glass, just George, give me a glass of. And and his beard and his moustache. It was always real tight, buried in the. You know, I wouldn't know what I wouldn't have been able to articulate it to anybody, and I honestly believed I would take it to my grave if it hadn't come out, I wouldn't have said.

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She spoke to me about an incident that happened with give that was then written about in the papers. So it was in the 94 piece, you know, and then she spoke about this incident, which I thought was really interesting and that I haven't heard about before.

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So have a listen. That was in the paper and I was talking to a swimmer and they said so don't believe that it was an expert. And he said, I don't believe George give Kitney to anybody. And I said, why would you say that on imagine somebody getting abused that their father's car. I just turned around and said, you know, you can take over saphenous and he's a friend and he just got up at a wedding, but he just he said, don't be ridiculous.

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But he did believe it was not that people didn't believe it, but there was an awful lot of people didn't believe it. And none of us, they just thought it was you know, this was after the papers and all that. Yeah. Yeah, but that's that's what you're up against. You know, that's strange because these people still thought George Clooney was God even when he went away, when you went to England, when it all come out and they were saying it's disgraceful, the running of the country.

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She was such a genuine person. She's not, you know, not a liar and out of favor. And I think that that hurt her quite a lot.

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And and I think it's probably the hardest part of the minute is. Saying people believe them now and the support that they've got and that, you know, there's people out there that have thrown their support behind them and she's not here to see a hatred, and that's horrible.

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That's the one thing I regret for her, because I know that the belief thing was a big deal to her because she was such a genuine person, you know, and people didn't believe her or any of them. And my heart breaks that she's. She's not here to see it. I want to bring in the rain candy for the rain. Good afternoon. As I mentioned, Chalky White there, it was a well known Irish swimmer when I was growing up.

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And he was he was abused by who? I George Gibney.

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And you tell us here you were abused as well and abused by George and and not for as long as he was.

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Oh, and what age were you, can I ask Lorraine? When this coach started? I was about nine years of age.

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Lorraine was one of the first people to come forward about George Jeepneys abuse. She was one of the first to go to the police.

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She agreed to talk to Johnny Waterson in the Sunday Tribune and signed an affidavit that she would testify in the case of global action. But she never got to see George Clooney go to trial and who did you confide in? I didn't vote in anybody when Chauke went to Gary and I would have been around. But I mean, I've been very jealous of and his wife and and she was telling me that as I come out and and then I just I came out and said that I was there.

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And at the time I didn't know if he was abused or and he didn't know I was abused.

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So you didn't know your brother was being abused? He didn't know his sister was being abused. And it was only when you were in your 40s that it just came out. Yes. Yes. OK. Like everybody knew everybody. But yes, nobody. No, you know, like he thought he was the only one and I thought I was the only one, and though I think I know there was more.

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I think she did. For a long time, the rain never knew about the others. For a long time, she thought she was alone. Oh, oh, oh, baby, baby. You have six new voice messages most. Message received today at 13 56.

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The rain was the very first survivor I spoke to, it feels up now since we talked and as each episode was broadcast, more and more people have contacted us.

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As we entered Episode seven, five women had contacted us, recalling incidents where George Clooney had sexually assaulted them as children, all of whom had never spoken before. And it kind of gave me his cheek, so I said, OK, thank you. And I went to kiss his cheek and he turned he put his hands onto my chin and he started to kiss me like a French kiss, but not a proper one because I didn't know how to do that, but.

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And then, of course, he called me over to ask, could he have a look at it, put his fingers under the elastic, I remember on the leg to check that the elastic was right with his fingers right off of my bum. And we knew that this was wrong, but nobody actually really said anything.

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The adults never said anything about who I am, but I just remember being absolutely terrified. It seems like a menace. But he was alarmed. He was in the room for a long time and he did go very quickly. And I started screaming at him. I went in to get their flippers and the next thing the satellite went off and he grabbed me and went to kiss me.

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I remember him just walking in the door and the door closing and just getting face to face when you go door.

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So many questions remain about the movements of George Clooney. One major question is about his time in Watford in the southeast of Ireland.

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Chalky White mentioned it in a previous episode when Gibney suddenly disappeared.

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I was just about to start the school in September to make that move in September and then all of a sudden I heard he was gone. Nobody knew where he went. He just left in college, didn't know anything about it. I was like, oh, strange, what happened here? And then we found out he went to Waterford.

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Give me got a job as Barth's manager at the Waterford Crystal Swimming Club in the summer of 1971.

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By 1972, the local newspaper reported that he was working miracles with his young swimmers.

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But unlike all the other clubs, give coached in no victim from Watford had ever come forward. So little was known of his time there. At the end of each podcast, when you'd say, oh, if you up in any way affected, I'd say, Oh God, well I realized I'd say to my husband and he'd say, do do whatever you feel you do.

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And then then I I'd say, oh, no, I leave. So then I did. And the third one, I wrote a long email and I'm like, this is too much information. And then I just abandoned as time went on and there was no mention of Watford and the last podcast, most I could tell, most of the women talking were jobs. Yeah. And I knew they were mostly Taliban or frozen and there were so many I couldn't get over that.

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I was like, oh my God, that his passion is just exactly what happened to Watford. And there's nobody for Watford, I wonder. And then just last week, something hit me. Because I knew the podcast was coming out again in December and just one particular day, I said, you know what, I'm going to do this.

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Hi, Mark. I've been listening to your amazing podcast about George Gibney. I swam under George from the age of 10 to 12 in Waterford Crystal Swimming Club. I would say I'm a victim of his predatory ways. I'd be happy to talk to regards. Yeah. This is Fiona Bennett, she's the first person to ever come forward from George Gibbons time in Watford. His name gives me the heebie jeebies. His name, when I heard his voice on the podcast, I, I jumped, I was like, Oh, gosh.

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I found that difficult hearing his voice, I really, really did. Just sort of brings back memories, yeah, just yeah, yeah, yeah, just just lying on top of that voice.

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You know. Talk to me just first of all, about how George Givati come into your and your family's life, Waterford Crystal sports clubs set up and they had a swimming pool and George was the first coach. To be hired, and I suppose I just took a complete shine to the sport, I absolutely loved it and he was encouraging, of course, very encouraging and thought I had potential. He was a friend of the families. He's come up for dinner, actually, my sister recalls the other day he used to be up for dinner quite a lot.

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I think it was driving me home from swimming, I was driving a few hours and left me to last. And it was rubbing my leg this the front, and he was rubbing my leg, but this is all very vague now. But and then I remember him holding my face and kissing me so I didn't know what.

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Like, part of me was like, oh, my God, he really likes me. You know, I was I was I was actually a little bit chuffed. Not scared, I was I wasn't scared of what, Adrian? Checkers, I think I was about 10. Yeah, I baby. Oh, my God. Baby. In Watford, it was mostly in the car. That he would touch me. And kissme. And then I say I moved from Austria to Galway because my dad's job and then I went, I was in Galway Swimming Club, but I still I will be honest, I still did not think there was anything wrong.

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Terrible. I'm disappointed in myself. But look, I I know, I know. Yeah. You know, and I never told anyone, anyone at my parents, nobody. He came to go all the way, probably through dad, and they had dinner in our house in Galway, and he actually came into my bedroom that night and I remember vividly, I remember where my bedroom was. I was in I was I was in my bed. And he came in and he lay on top of me and kissed me and I that is when I thought, oh my God, Jesus is.

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So anyway, I still, of course, never said a word, never did anything, never just I don't know, just didn't do anything. And then I'm like, here I am, 60 now, and your podcast comes out and. I would love to see him pay the price and you know what I've done for my girls as well, because I was a. If anything like that, I never said I'd kill the person I would open up for murder.

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But anyway, listen, thank you for your time. Lovely to meet you. Likewise, after our interview, Fiona and I talk in the car park. He needs I can't believe this. I can't believe he's still alive and getting away. Because he doesn't deserve to be, it doesn't. When they think back to the fact that you were the first person from that club now who's come forward to say this was happening in Waterford Crystal as well. How do you feel about the fact or the likelihood that other people could have been affected in Watford?

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What's the likelihood of that in your mind? I think it's highly likely. I like absolutely wasn't the only one. I was 12 when I left was. But I, I no doubt about that. I was the only. I wasn't the only one. For years, Lorraine thought she was the only one on the question remains how many other survivors are there? Also on the front page of The Irish Times, Johnny Watson reports that swimming coach John Mullins has resigned from the board of Swim Ireland following an interview he gave to the BBC podcast series.

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Where is George Gibney now? Where is George Ghiberti? It's a question many have been asking.

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And we're going to talk about George Gibney now. We're going to spend some time now talking about the BBC podcast. Where is George Gibney?

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As more episodes of the podcast went to air, the series began receiving quite a lot of media coverage. Over the course of a few weeks, more and more people were getting in contact.

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He has got Hagar's he have a second get these to come in and they're kind of come in together and I read them to you these emails. Hi Mark.

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I was a swimmer and coach by Gibney When I was very young. He grew me and my older sister were giving us lifts to and from the swimming pool in the late 70s or two and 220 and the emails and calls and messages kept coming after Episode eight. Hi Chris.

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How are you doing? How is that?

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We got phone calls from swimmers, adults who weren't abused themselves but are still trying to make sense of the things they saw as children.

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So there was one day that I particularly remember when we were in the pool and two of the more senior girls were always very concerned about the young ones. And suddenly in the middle of a training session, one of them suddenly yelled out, Georgias in the girls changing rooms again and everyone stopped. It was one of those moments that you don't forget.

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Oh, I remember making my way over to seniors, checking in if she was OK and she was crying and been consoled by our friend and hugged and but I thought nothing of a boy of our nursing home. And so I was told at the time, but retrospectively in hindsight and over the years and what I know now, because that image hasn't haunted me, but it is you know, as I said, I see things very clearly from years ago.

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And there's an incredible podcast on at the moment called Where Is George Gibney? The Man in Question, George Gibney in the series, Where is George Gibney? That email address, if you want to get in touch, is where is George gave me a BBC Decoder UK.

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It wasn't just a swimming pool. Old friends and old neighbors of George Gibney now contacted us.

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This one's a little bit longer and thank you for your podcasts and for still trying to track George Gibney. I'm not sure why we as kids don't raise the alarm. I didn't. George and his family were our neighbors. I remember as kids there were Spanish students who stayed there, girls my age. I was thirteen. Maybe George will be in the back garden standing in his cold bunker on the other side of the wall. I don't know why, but I climbed the wall so he could tell me he loved me and squeeze me so hard that it hurt.

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I wish I could remember anything else. The meetings in the garden were regular. OK, so there's the swimming. Why is your mom there?

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Yeah, Louise and I look at some old photos, a beautiful old black and white print from the Guinness Swimming Club with the old tiles in the background. Her mom was a little girl, is smiling in the front row and her swimsuit. Yeah.

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And I wonder what year that was. Yeah. So I'd say she's probably and I know what you mean. She looks it be about kind of.

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I say maybe 10 or 11, which would have been sixty six, sixty seven maybe, yeah, it's taken around the time she was in the back of the car with Gibney as her father drove a long time ago.

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I was just in the collection there.

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The rain never got to see George Gibney go to trial. And because of that Supreme Court decision in 1993 and a thing called the principle of legal certainty, her case and the cases of the other complainants back then, like a bar, can almost certainly never be tried again. I don't think I could have not to the extent that she did, she went through far too much and it's hard. Knowing how much she went through and. Not getting justice and not getting.

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Just not getting justice for us. I think she was dealt a really, really cruel blow at the end.

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It's just unfair, I think. Like, obviously, the fact that he's alive and out there and, you know, with no repercussions for what he did and she's not here, that makes me angry. And I don't understand how it wouldn't make you angry. And but I think the truth of the matter is it's been so long, I can't see anything.

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I can't see him facing any charges or anything like that for for what happened a long time ago. I can't see them getting justice for that.

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And. So I suppose the only thing we can hope for is that he's on the run for the rest of his life or that he faces charges for. Something else is done, maybe. Are you ready to go now? Yeah, OK, great. Right. Well, listen, let's just start. Since our series began, 18 new people have come forward saying George Gibney sexually assaulted them as children. Serious allegations, including two women from the same era who called from different sides of the globe.

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I'll just show you both where she was found and she she didn't want to be seen. She was trying to be she was trying to get herself together. She was out here and she was standing up like this and she was just in the tears, were rolling down her face and she was shaking.

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And I approached her. I said, Are you OK? And I put my hand on her on her shoulder here. And she jerked back and she couldn't talk. She couldn't talk. And I said, Do you want me to wait? She couldn't talk. And I was given a lift and I had to go.

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And then you're saying you've you've thought about that subsequently.

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When when when the cases came out in the 90s. She was one of the first people that came to my mind. I always wondered. I always wondered.

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All four oh. How have you found the past three months and how have you been since the podcast came out? When I first heard the podcast, I literally stayed in my car in the driveway crying towers. I it was so painful. Everything just came back in a rush. It still is painful, but not as painful. It has given me an opportunity, for instance, to talk to a family member to disclose what happened.

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It's. Also drove home to me the point that even though he tried to isolate us and make us feel this on me, feel that I was partly to blame for this, that I wasn't alone. One of the one of the worst things about being a victim at the time is that you feel so alone, you're isolated and and so hearing.

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Trish Imbert and other people talk about what happened, it just brought home the reality, this. I'm not the only one. Like everybody knew everybody and yes, nobody knows, you know, like he thought he was the only one and I thought I was the only one.

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And though I think that I know there was more. And. All those tears, the anger coming as being able to speak to a family member, being able to speak to you, I mean, a total stranger just sort of opened the floodgates. Good morning and welcome to the program today, the podcast, Where Is George Keaveney leads to a the investigation into new allegations against the former swim coach.

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If you've been affected by any of the issues in this series, please contact support organizations in your own country for a list of organizations in the U.K. that can provide support for survivors of sexual abuse. Go to BBC, Dakoda, U.K. forward slash action line. You can still contact us at Whereis George Gibney at BBC, Dakoda, U.K.. If you've any information you'd like to share and you can find us on social at second captains. Where is George Gibney is a second captain's production for BBC Science.

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The series has written and produced by me, Mark Horgan and Kiran Cassidy. It's co-produced with Maria Horgan and editing is also by Kiran Cassidy. Research and fact checking is by Chilian Down. Our composer is Michael Fleming and Sound Mixing is by Jerry McDonnel. Our theme tune is by Aaron Dessner. The executive producer for the BBC is Dylan Hoskins at the commissioning editor is Jason Phipps. You'll be able to listen to Episode 10, our final episode of Where Is George Gibney next Thursday, 10th of December, and you can subscribe as ever, wherever you are in the world of the free BBC Sanza.

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We had a great life. We did everything together, did an American woman end up at the heart of the Islamic State group Caliphate and then make it back by story?

[00:37:12]

Oh, yeah, absolutely. It is very hard to believe some. Sally says she was tricked into taking her children. Feel sad that they would do that to a child. But washing anything I've ever done is only with the intention of something good to happen. I'm not a bad person. I'm not a monster.

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I'm not a monster. A new podcast series from BBC Panorama and Frontline, PBS. Listen on the BBC sounds up.