Hey, everyone. Julia here. Millions of Americans have lost access to abortion and other life-saving reproductive health care in just the last couple of years. But we can change that. When voters get the chance to decide for themselves, they always choose reproductive rights and freedom in state after state after state, blue or red. People all over the country are organizing to get our rights back. So how can you help? Go to thefairnessproject. Org/wiser. In just one click, you can make a donation to the Abortion Ballet Measure Fund, which works with grassroots organizers to get abortion measures onto the ballot in states like Arizona, Florida, Missouri, and Montana. Ballet measures put power back in the hands of voters. Just go to thefairnessproject. Org/wiser to donate today, because every time reproductive rights have been on the ballot since Dobbs, reproductive rights have won. So visit thefairnessproject. Org/wiser now.

Lemonada.

This is a favorite poem of mine. It's called Flash frozen. Here it is. My mother grew up in a homemade world. Her mother stitched sun bonnets one stitch at a time for five little girls, carried pears, beans, tomato, squash in her apron from the garden to the kitchen, where steaming mason jars with wide open mouths stood at the ready to receive. Jars lined the cool basement shelves like picture books, wild with color, waiting for another season. A huge gray pot, quiet on the stove, made soup for the week. In winter, root vegetables bounced, softened in water, fragrant with the earth. Clarence Birdseye, born in Brooklyn, practiced taxidermy before joining the Department of Agriculture as a naturalist posted in the Arctic. There, he learned a thing or two watching the Inuit make holes in the ice, drop lines, and bring up a fish frozen straight through in the blink of an eye. Clarence brought that thought home in a system that packed food into waxed cardboard cartons, flash frozen, nearly fresh. My mother's freezer was as big as a car. Thursdays were poker night. She could whip up a meal in 20 minutes once she unwrapped the box.

How about that? So that was actually written by my mom Judy Bowles. And good God Almighty, I do love that poem. The grandmother who stitched the sun bonnets and carried pears and beans and tomato and squash from her garden to her kitchen was my mom's grandma Bessy, my great grandmother. She was the original farm to table chef. Well, I guess everybody who didn't have a staff and a cook, which is most people, was a farm to table chef not so long ago. My mom and my sisters and I all hold great Grandma Bessy in a magical, sainted place. We all really want to be a little bit more like Grandma Bessy, especially in the kitchen. I'm very lucky because my little sister, Lauren, lives in Los Angeles, and whenever we get together, which is very often, making food, delicious food, is at the center of what is always a joyful time. She is a baker. I mean, a crazy great baker of amazing breads and muffins and bagels. We are both obsessed with baking desserts, and I make things out of the food that I grow in my garden, like tomato sauce and pickles and jams and marmelades.

It's all pretty goddamn good, if I do say so myself. The thing that my mom catches really so beautifully in that poem is the physical tactile contact with the ingredients that make meals so delicious. This. The melancholy in it is the loss of that contact. Of course, the poem is about a lot more, too. Family, caring, nourishment, and other kinds of loss. I've been thinking a lot about how as we speed forward and technology dominates more and more of our day-to-day lives, we touch the things that matter less and less. I mean, think about We don't hold the newspaper, we look at it on a screen. We don't put pen to paper very often. We don't rest the stereo needle carefully in the groove of a cherished record album. We're a step back, it seems, from touching things that matter. I mean, life is easier. Yeah, sure. But even when we go to a beautiful place now, we immediately stick a phone between us and the sunset. God. I mean, there's a loss there, too. So maybe that's why cooking beautiful, healthy, yummy meals with my sister and her family made with vegetables and hand-picked fruit right out of the garden or stuff that's carefully chosen at a farmer's market and spending hours together working out the menu and working with our hands and our hearts means so, so much to me.

Food, yeah. I mean, it's the basic. It's the most basic thing of all. And so how lucky then that today we get to talk to Alice Waters. I'm Julia Louis-Dreyfus, and this is Wiser Than Me, the podcast where I get schooled by women who are wiser than me. I remember what American cooking was like before Alice Waters. We ate stuff like frozen fish sticks and banquet fried chicken TV dinners, and those were treats. I mean, that's what we look forward to when our parents went out to a party. It was a dark time for taste buds everywhere. But our guest today knew there was something better. She is the founder of the Groundbreaking Che'Panis, a Berkeley, California-based restaurant where she delved deep into the connections between environment, culture, food, and politics by paying close attention to ingredients, not just in how they're prepared, but in how they're produced. She is a pioneer of the farm to table movement, maybe the pioneer. And most importantly, she championed the concept that food grown with care and treated with respect in the kitchen could be transformative and, of course, delicious. Our guest has served up everything from delicious hairy Coat Ver and sun-ripened peaches to, believe it or not, a brazed pair of Werner Hertzhog's boots in a pot of red dirt duck fat.

We can talk about that later. It blows my mind how many renowned chefs trained with her, basically everybody. The truth is, her impact on American cooking is immeasurable, and it She doesn't stop in the kitchen. She's a tireless advocate for sustainable agriculture, food justice, and education reform. Through initiatives like the Edible Schoolyard Project, she has provided hands-on experiences that connect students to food, nature, and each other while addressing the crises of climate change, public health, and social inequality. At its heart is a dynamic and joyful learning experience for every child, and you can actually download the lesson plans. Alice is the recipient of some of the highest honors in both food and life, including seven James Beard Awards, the National Humanities Medal, and the French Legion of Honor. Please join me in welcoming an author, cook, activist mother and woman who is so much wiser than me, Alice Waters. Welcome, Alice Waters. What a treat to have you with us.

Thank you so much. Wonderful to talk with you.

I'm happy you're here.

I'm a little tearful about about that introduction.

Oh, no, no. Well, it's such a celebration, and you have so much to celebrate about yourself. I personally am honored to talk with you today because I'm a ginormous fan of yours. Are you comfortable if I ask your real age?

I just turned 80.

Nice. And how old do you feel?

I've never thought about age as being something I was looking forward to or something I look back on. It's strange that when this happened this year, I mean, everybody else was concerned about me. They were? Well, worried that I was getting old. I really feel like age is about how you feel about yourself. I had a great aunt who I lived to 102.

Nice.

She was a wonderful inspiration to me her whole life. I watched how she lived.

When you say you watched how she aged your aunt, what are you witnessing? What are you inspired by?

I guess I'm inspired by their joie de vivre. They're wanting to be present. They're wanting to communicate what they know with everybody else and are so generous with that.

Yeah, that's so wonderful. Alice, I have to tell you how our lives connected. I'm very close with my sister-in-law, who's a conservationist and environmentalist in Northern California. She did an auction for the Trails Forever dinner that was thrown by the Golden Gate National Park Conservancy. One of the prizes being auctioned was you and I because it was a hike. Yeah, it was a hike with me and a picnic by you. Honestly, I'm going to tell you right now, I don't remember anything about the hike, and I love to hike, okay? I'm a big hiker. I don't remember a thing, but I remember that goddamn sandwich sandwich was so good, Alice. It was aspergus and prosciutto. It was on a baguette. There may have been butter, there may have been arugula. This I can't recall. But all we did was talk about this sandwich. I'm not kidding you. I don't remember a thing about the hike, and it was a big hike. Then I went home and I tried to recreate it, and it was complete crap what I made. It was terrible.

Well, that's because- Tell me. I I think it had Ioli on it. Garlic, garlic mayonnaise. And we make that with wonderful olive oil and a real sweet garlic. And garlic is a main ingredient, not only for taste, but for health. Have you seen the film, garlic is as good as Ten Mothers?

No, but I'm going to watch it tonight.

Okay. S. Plank made a film called garlic is as good as Ten Mothers.

That's a great title. So you made a garlic aioli. I'm going to now try this again because everything was off. The prosciutto was off, the aspergus was Too stringy, whatever. But I did try anyway. This is how much I loved it. I have so much work to do today because I'm going to do this garlic mayonnaise. You are known, of course, for making the everyday experience elevated. So I wanted to dig into your daily routine. For example, what do you have for breakfast?

Well, I always have my Puerre tea because I had high cholesterol, and I asked all my friends what I should do. And I had many of them tell me, drink the fermented Puerre tea, a Chinese tea, a dark tea, and eat whole grains. I absolutely was rigidly adherent to that prescription, and my cholesterol went down 100 points.

Get the hell out of here.

No. Really? It really did.

Wait a minute. Did you take medication, too?

No, I didn't want to take medication.

Fucking God, I can't believe what I'm hearing. It's true.

Now I've become a Puerre tea salesperson.

How do you spell Puerre tea? Because I'm getting it from my husband.

P-u-e-r-h.

H, puerhty. Is it tasty?

I think it is. I make it very dark. I used to be a francophile in my breakfast. I drank a cafe au lait. I had a piece of toast with some jam, that early morning. And now, when I'm drinking that tea, I want something savory. So I had this morning, I had a little bit of salad, but I scramble an egg.

Do you still cook each day? Do you plan your meals?

Well, I always want to have the ingredients at my house, so I can cook something if I need to or want to. So I always have salad. I always have great farm eggs. And a lot of this I just get from Chebunis because I want everything from my organic regenerative farmers.

Yes.

The things that I have to have at home are salad and fruit. And I want Meyer lemons. I have a tree out back. I have herbs all in my backyard. So I can always get rosemary sage and fry them. I can always make something tasty at the last minute.

I have a Meyer lemon tree, too, and it is such an unusual taste. I always have lemon water in the morning. If my Meyer lemons are ripe, I have my Meyer lemon water, which is an elevated Lemon water experience. There's just no way around it. I just recently, by the way, going off topic a little bit, I just started to make ice cream, and I made Lemon ice cream. Now I'm thinking, Oh, I'm excited to try to make Meyer Lemon ice cream because I think that'll be yummy, right?

Guess what? 53 years ago, no, 52, not in the first year of Chebunis. Lindsay, who was the pastry chef at Chebunis, started making Meyer Lemon Ice Cream and Meyer Lemon Sherbert. I have to say that that was a wake up, not only for us in the kitchen, but for everybody who came to Chebunis. It was the dessert that they wanted again. It was a long season. And we got them from people who brought them or exchanged them for a lunch at the restaurant. They would bring them from their backyard tree. I loved it.

God, I wish I lived near you. I would bring you Meyer Lemon It's just so that I could eat that right now. You describe beauty as an essential life force. By the way, I put my dolly here today for you.

I saw those first off. Good.

I'm so happy you noticed them.

First thing, I thought, Oh, how beautiful.

Thank you. Oh, that makes me happy then. Mission accomplished, because those are from my garden, and I just wait every year for those things to pop up, and they're going crazy right now, and I'm going to post a picture of this on our social so people can see. But you describe beauty as an essential life force. How do you bring beauty into your life every day? Is there a practice that you have? I think you're very, like me, you're very into flowers. But talk to me about that.

Well, I always want flowers in my house. Me, too. Of the moment in time. I don't want tulips in middle of the winter. And the bilocks, I want them just in the spring when they're happening. And it keeps me connected exactly the way food does with where I am in time and place. It's all of those subtleties that I'm so connected to.

Have you always been like that?

Well, when I was little, my great-aunt and my mother used to go out always in the spring and in the fall to look at the trees. We would drive on roads all in North New Jersey and see these glorious explosions of flowering trees and bushes. We had a hedge of bilocks that I always wanted to go by. But that's, I think been in my life since I was very little. And of course, everybody had victory gardens during the war. And I'm sure that that really gave me a taste for strawberries and corn and tomatoes that I'll never, ever forget. Those are really hot weather vegetables and fruits. And no matter How delicious ours are here. Not quite as good as New Jersey.

Isn't it interesting, too, how smells can be so, as you're talking about, like the lilax and the tomatoes, and I'm growing tomatoes right now, and the smell of a tomato plant is very specific. When I'm nipping the leaves that I don't want there, my hands get My hands get that smell, and I love that smell.

I think you know I'm a Montessori teacher. I was trained in London in 1968. She, of course, believed way back in the 1880s that our senses are the pathways into our mind. I think, of course, in this tech world that we live in, that we're all sensorially deprived because we aren't touching and smelling and tasting and listening to things that are beautiful and looking at the world, the nature around us.

Yes, totally. There's even more wisdom from Alice Waters coming up after this break. Okay, guys, in case you missed it, food waste is a huge freaking problem for the planet. A while back, I found out about a new invention that's supposed to help solve it. It's called the Mill Food Recycler, and I got to tell you, I am a believer. First off, it's insanely easy. It takes almost Anything that comes out of your kitchen. I mean, seriously, we're talking avocado pits, a whole Thanksgiving turkey carcass, and you just drop them in the mill, and, well, that's it. It works overnight while you sleep. You don't even have to think about it. You can keep filling your mill for weeks on end, and it never smells, not even a little. It shrinks everything way down into these clean, dry, nutrient-rich grounds, and you can mix them with your potting soil to feed your home garden. Or if you're indoorsy, then get this. Mill can have your grounds picked up from your home and sent back to farms to create more food. I am so into Mill that I've actually become an investor. It's made my life better, and I think it stands a chance of making the world a little better, too.

Go to mill. Com/wiser to get $100 off your purchase of Mill. We're not talking small change. Again, that's mill. Com/wiser for off. Fall is finally here, and with it comes all those cozy, comforting flavors we love. Green Chef makes it easy to enjoy the season with delicious clean meals delivered straight to your door. They're the number one meal kit for eating clean. That means every box is packed with fresh organic produce and responsibly sourced proteins. Green Chef's recipes are designed to be easy with pre-prepped ingredients and meals ready in 25 minutes or less. Plus, they offer meal plans for every lifestyle like keto, Mediterranean, plant-based, and more. Let's read from this week's menu, shall we? Green Chef users can select the savory and colorful Southwest pork and rice stuffed peppers with corn, red peppers, Monterey Jack, and chimichurri, or the creamy shrimp primavera with spaghetti squash, tomato, pees, parmesan, and sunflower seeds. That one's gluten-free, too. Or perhaps the protein-packed, herbed organic chicken and sauce that comes with pesto kale, roast fingerling potato, and cabbage salad. It's finished with a little sprinkling of feta cheese. Can't get hummier than that. If you're craving something extra, check out Green Market.

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I know I could get you to love phenol, but you need to get a little Japanese mandolin because that is an essential little equipment that I have from my kitchen. I have a mortar and a pestle, and I have a mandolin. They're very inexpensive. You have to be careful that you do it slowly, but it's not like the big French one that's hard to use and you really could hurt yourself. But when you eat a big chunk of phenol, I wouldn't want that. But if it's shaved thinly and mixed with greens and a great vinaigrette on it with garlic. It's delicious like that because it's a little tone of an herb.

I think what's becoming quite clear to me is that, is there any house in your neighborhood for sale? Because I have to move next to you. You have to be my neighbor. I have to go to your house.

I'll find you a house.

I need a house, Alice. I need a house next to you. Did you get to know Julia Child?

I did. I knew her from year two, maybe near one of the restaurant. She came and she had the fixed-price dinner because that's all we had at the beginning. Yes. 3.95 for four courses, and you had to eat that.

Right. $3.95, to be clear. Yes.

When I came over to the table, she said to me, This is not a restaurant. This is like eating in somebody's home. I think she meant it a little bit as an insult. No. A little bit of, What are you doing? I thought it was the greatest compliment, the greatest compliment. Then we became good friends after that. She always acted as a big sister to me in that respect. The one show that we did together, I was just so embarrassed that I was doing something so foolishly simple. But she was so generous about it. It was so fascinating. How do you crack an olive open when she knew perfectly well how to do that. I didn't. And I'm acting like that is something special. I'm communicating to people. And it was so tender the way that she took care of me.

I have a Julia Child confession story because I live in Santa Barbara, where, of course, she lived at the end of her life. Yes. And she was very close friends with our her neighbor at the time, Dahl Delarmy. She would often, of course, as I'm sure it happens with you as well, people would send her food, people would send her meat. Dahl, our neighbor, was a wonderful barbecue barbecue her. She would bring meat to him, and then he would barbecue it, et cetera. One day, our neighbor said, Oh, Julia is coming over tonight for a cocktail. Come over for a cocktail. I said, Oh, okay. This is, by the way, this is quite a long ago, and our kids were really young. This, by the way, does not reflect well on me, so just heads up about that. Then it was around that time, and I was like, Oh, my God, I can't go to somebody's house. We've got too much to do, and the kids, and blah, blah, blah. And we didn't go.

We didn't go.

I'm going to tell you that if somebody said to me, Do you have any regrets in your life? That would top the list because was we didn't go, and we missed the chance to meet that icon and good human being. Anyway, I'm confessing to you, my priest, Alice Waters, and I hope that you're going to tell me that you forgive my sin.

I do forgive your sin because I understand completely about taking care of a child and a family at home around dinner time. My My new grandchild is absolutely adorable, but she takes full-time attention. I want to be there for her, especially around dinner. I understand the issues for parents to leave at that time. I think one of the great things that's going on right now are that men are connected with children and are cooking for the family. I just love it. It's about sharing the work.

Right. Sharing the work. It's not just women's work in the house.

It is not.

It is absolutely not.

That's the beautiful thing that's going on in this next generation. We're finding out about the passions of each other. And the gardening is the same way. Why aren't we all planting victory gardens? Why aren't we planting wherever we can and growing food?

By the way, my mother's 90, and she had her very own victory garden as a little girl. And the word victory garden is so beautiful. I think I have to make a sign and put that on my garden that says victory garden.

I did that during the pandemic. And My neighbors came over and said, How do you keep the deer away from your vegetables? I never had talked to my neighbors before.

All of a sudden, they're really- How do you keep the deer away? And by the way, how do you keep the bunnies away? The bunnies, these fucking bunnies in my… They're making me crazy, Alice.

Well, I figured out how. How? You plant something for them to eat that they like, and that's over there. And so the things that you want are over here.

And what do they like?

What do bunnies like? Probably carrots, I presume. I've never had the problem with bunnies. I've just had the problem with deer.

Well, I guess I'm going to have to plant carrots all over my house because I've actually turned into Farmer McGregor. I mean, I'm thinking like, I got to trap these things and eat them or something. I want to switch here is to ask you a question about motherhood, actually, specifically, because I was really interested in your memoir. You talked about your mother's postpartum when nobody would discuss postpartum, and her receiving help was considered a taboo and the arrival of your first period, which you felt you couldn't mention, even with your pregnancy. It struck me how little women were supposed to know or were allowed to know about their bodies when you were growing up. I'm wondering, how did that culture affect or influence the way you raised your daughter? Were there things that you found you had shame about that you had to find a way to get over? I'm curious about that because I think, frankly, my mother had the same experience about that challenge.

Well, I I was in Berkeley in the '60s. Yes, right.

There's a that.

That opened up my mind in so many ways. Yes. But I still had those taboos in me. I think that in some ways, Fanny's father did not have those in his life or didn't feel that way about nakedness or just the parts of your body that are just not to be talked about. Fanny opened up my mind in a way. Interesting. She did. She helped me to really accept myself in that way. She wasn't afraid of those words. I still can't say them. Really? No, I can't. I can't say them quite. I can think them, but I can't say them. I believe in it. I believe in having skeletons that we learned from in our science class in fourth grade. We had that. We don't know anything about anatomy anymore. Where is our gall bladder? I had to ask when I went to the doctor, where is that? I mean, why don't we know?

And what is it doing, by the way?

What is it? Yes, and what is it doing?

I mean, people get rid of their gall bladder, don't they?

I know. We don't know anything, anything about the functioning of our bodies. Yes. And I mean, it was only Kennedy that helped us learn about exercise and what our muscles did, and he encouraged us all to exercise. And that was the beginning of my really passion about it. But we thought, and we still do things of exercise as hard.

Yeah, as opposed to just- A pleasure.

Yes. I mean, it's like walking out at night and seeing the stars, watching the sunset. Even if you're in a city, it's like you get to move and breathe in a air that's different. I just think that we have such a wrong understanding. Well, it goes with the food, too. It's It's completely misunderstood what is good for us and what is not.

Yeah, indeed. It really is. I would love to shift here and talk about your life as a mother. You had your daughter at age 40, which is just phenomenal. By the way, I love the name Fanny. Can you talk about that transition? Because, of course, you had been running Chez Panisse at that time. Then talk about what you did once Fanny was born and how you managed that, I'm going to say, transition.

Fanny was a child of the restaurant. I did bring her there very early on. Yes. The waiters, she would call around in the dining room. I wrote a book about her when she was 10 years old and making her pizza upstairs in the restaurant with Michele. And all of those experiences she had at a very early age. But I wanted her to understand that food was right of the moment and needed to be eaten from the garden to the table. That experience. So we had a garden out in the back of the house. But another great story, which I might have told one time was she and her friend wanted to have Blueberry pancakes. And I said, This isn't the time. It's wintertime. There's no blueberries. She said, I'm going to go to the store at 18. I said, Organic blueberries. Remember that? So she comes back with a little organic label on the blueberries. I said, Where did she get that? And in the end, she had to admit that she stole the organic label from another package, and that put them all in the Blueberries.

Did she confess in the moment or later?

No, just a few moments later, about 10 minutes later.

Oh, bless her heart. This is a child rebelling against Alice Waters. That Alice, but explain how, I mean, as you acknowledged, being at home at dinner time, putting a child to bed, that doesn't, shall we say, jive very well with running a restaurant. Can you talk about that balance, how you managed it? Did you step back a little bit?

Well, I did. I knew we were open for six days, and I knew that I couldn't work six days, but maybe I could work three days and have another chef work three days. They would get paid for full-time, but they would only work three days. It worked so well because they were inspired. They brought another viewpoint to the restaurant that I decided to do that for the café chefs and for the pastry chefs. We've done this since I had my daughter, 40 years ago. I mean, fabulous. It changed the life of the restaurant because the people who were working on the menus could go out and eat, could take care of Their families could go on vacation. The other chef would cover for them. Everybody who worked at the restaurant would have several opinions. They would learn how to make that salad that way and this way with different chefs. I am convinced that spending that money in that way is What has kept the restaurant alive for these 53 years?

Well, I think it's interesting because it really does overlap with what you were saying earlier, and that is the connection to the people with whom you're working, the almost ensemble work that you're doing as a restaurant. And that is, of course, there is so much respect built into that way of working, that it is so ingrained. There is nothing but respect there, and people respond to that. It brings out the best in someone. And That's a great life lesson. It can be applied to so many things. Certainly, I do apply that to the work that I do when I'm working in an ensemble, which is my favorite thing in the world to do. That give and take and the ability to listen and the ability to share in a moment, it's a great life lesson. It's time to take another break. We'll be right back with Alice Waters in just a moment. Attention, entrepreneurs. If you're looking to take your business to new heights, Macy's has an exciting opportunity for you. Applications are now open for the workshop at Macy's Class of 2025. The Workshop at Macy's is a unique accelerator program designed to help small businesses thrive.

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I have so many things.

Yes, well, you must. I want you... One thing I'd love for you to tell is the Werner Herzog story with the boot. Would you mind explaining the genesis of that? It's such a good story.

Well, it's a story about two filmmakers, Werner Herzog and Errol Morris. They were both people I knew because of my dearest friend Tom Luddy. Yes. And he came. He used Chey Penis as his dining room. So I met George Lucas and Coppola and Kurosawa, and everybody came to Chey because of Tom. And Tom encouraged a film to be made about Werner Hertzog making a bet with Errol Morris, referring to a film that Errol Morris was going to make. Werner said, If you do make this film, Errol Morris, I will eat my shoe. Then Tom Lottie said, Oh, well, Alice will cook the shoe. Alice will cook the ship. And Werner brings by a walking boot that he had a big old tough boot. And I said, Werner, I'm not sure I can cook that. He said, Cook it. And I stuffed it with garlic and I tied it all up. And I figured it was a little bit like cooking a duck, coffee cook it in the fat. Cook it in duck fat.

I'm assuming it was leather.

It was leather. Oh, God. Yes. You're not cooking some GORE-Tex situation. Yeah, exactly. It was leather. But anyway, I started cooking it and cooking it and cooking it and cooking it. And finally, Tom came by to get the shoe to take over to the auditorium where Furner was going to eat the shoe because Harold made the film. I could not really make it help, but Furner, in his enthusiasm, started to eat the shoe. Oh, my God. I watched him eat about... He had a very sharp scissors that he cut it with, and he did chew it off. He didn't eat the whole thing, but he did a good job.

And did he go straight to the emergency room after that?

No, but I just- I think that is so remarkable. It's a testimonial to really believing in what you're doing. Yes. And believing in film to that degree, to understanding the value of a certain filmmaker, knowing it's important, the films he's making. And that is, I guess, the way I would feel, too. I'm not sure I would eat a shoe, but I might have to do something that I didn't like because I wanted to show people that it was that important to me.

Yeah, I get it. I have to say that was an extraordinary story. Speaking of Tom Luddy, I know that he passed away last year, very sadly. For our listeners, Tom Luddy was a film producer who co-families founded the Telly Ride Film Festival. I wanted to ask Alice, actually, if you don't mind, about the things that change as we age. I'd like to talk about how you deal with grief and loss because you're so community-oriented in the most healthy and magical way, really. How do you rebuild the community as you move through grief, as you have lost people? I mean, this is a part of life. How do you do it?

Well, I wouldn't have believed that I could do it, really. I was afraid of death. I had my four dear friends die within six months.

Four Alice?

Four. All four. Tom Lutti, who was my friend of 50 years, 55 years. I had Fritz Streif, who wrote every book with me, wrote every letter to a president for me. He walked with me every morning, and I haven't been able to imagine my life without him. And then Steve Crumly, who was the first waiter at Cheypanese. He was the head of the café at the top of the stairs. For everyone, he was Cheypanese. And the fourth one was, of course, David coins. And David had a stroke, and he was paralyzed. And David is somebody who always did things the way he wanted. Coffee with Cognac. That person always knew what he wanted. And there he was in the hospital, paralyzed. And I knew he wouldn't be there long. And even though his His sister's daughter wanted him to stay alive and go through rehab, he said, I want to go home. He said to his best friend, Richard, from the printing press days, I want a Blueberry Muffin and a Rye Whisky. He ate the Blueberry Muffin, drank the Rye Whisky, and died. That was it. I learned so much about dying. Some did it poorly that they couldn't help it, they didn't plan for it, they didn't think it was going to happen.

And some had partners who helped them really be with their friends right to the end, who had their favorite musicians come and play music and fight and shape and ease into their house. Then there were people that wanted to do it in private and did it when their partner left on a trip. They were all so different. I saw what it was like when you don't Have your wishes written down and notarized before you die. You can't count on friends and family to do that because they They may be stricken with grief and they have families that want to do something other, want to have cremations. I've already told Fanny that I've got a backup for you if you don't do what I want. And I want to be buried in the ground because there are now cemeteries where there are trees.

Yes, a green burial.

No casket. Just I want to be part of regenerative agriculture. Agriculture. I want to nourish the soil. I don't want a casket just in there. I can't probably do it in my backyard so she could have a lettuce garden there. But I really think it's important. Just think of the way that people have been buried since the beginning of time. I'm sure that that was part of what kept the soil. So so rich with all of the nutrients is the burials.

It's interesting, isn't it? We all have in common the fact that we've been born mystically, magically born in this moment, and we all have in common that we're all going to go. Yes. But isn't it interesting that people really push away that fact? Yes. To your point about Can we say dying well? That there's a denial in place that is an obstacle to dying well, I think.

There is. Huge obstacle. Even the people that are very, very committed about it, somebody's got questions for them that they can answer, and it goes in different directions. But I saw that I need to prepare myself, and not just mentally, but physically. I just appreciate the cultures that care about this, like the Japanese culture, particularly. I'm so interested in the way they treat children and schools and how they treat older people, and they care for them. I've always wanted to commune right to the end for my friends. I promised that from the time I was 30. I just thought, What if we all just live together until we go? And Ruth Rutscher was asking about where that commune was today. Yeah. Maybe it's Santa Barbara.

Maybe. Can I join it, by the way? Yes, you can. If you put it to your end. Oh, thanks. I'd love to be in it. I'd love to be in I want to ask you quick little questions before we go. Is there something you'd go back and tell yourself when you were 21?

Pause.

Oh, really?

Don't just tear it through your life so quickly. I mean, I was part of the free speech movement and the whole drinking and living and the sexual freedom times, to stop the war. We were so starved for connection with each other. But it's very difficult to do when we aren't really encouraged and taught in college about what the bigger world is about. That was something that Mario Sávio taught me at Berkeley during the free speech movement. He said, We need to learn from other people who have other ways of living.

Pause and pay attention.

Pause and pay attention. Now, of course, I'm running like crazy right now, trying to change the world.

I know. I'm running, too, but it's something I have to tell myself as well. In fact, Yesterday, I was taking my dog for a walk and walking through the garden, and I was actually admiring some plants that are in bloom. Then I saw a hummingbird land on a little tiny, tiny branch of this particular plant. I just stood there watching it, and it was clear that this is a bird who's guarding a nest, cannot see the nest. You know how tiny these things are. I thought, Oh, I've got I have to take the dog to the vet. I've got to meet with this person. But I just stayed there, and I've been thinking about that ever since, just watching the hummingbird sit. I'm thinking about that advice. I think we would all benefit to pause and pay attention much more often than we do, particularly in this country.

Well, that's exactly the walk I take every morning. I'm just looking at what's growing, and I'm just fascinated by it. And it's happening everywhere. I mean, you don't have to go to Central Park. No. I mean, the birds are everywhere. Right. And flowers are everywhere, and they're changing all the time.

Yeah, of course.

And so you notice things even in the dandy lines that are in the little space between the sidewalk and the street.

Alice, I wanted to show you the picture of the hummingbird that I took yesterday. Can you see that?

Oh, I love it. I've got some pictures just like that for you.

Yeah, it's pretty fun to see them just hanging out. Incredible. Isn't that dear? Yes.

Yeah. Yes.

Alice Waters, I can't thank you enough for generously giving us so much of your time today. I'm indebted to you. I hope that someday We get to spend time together.

Well, there's always a seat for you.

Bless you. Thank you for everything today.

Thank you for asking me.

Wow. Well, what a beautiful conversation that was with Alice. I just can't wait to talk to my mom about this one. Let's get her on a Zoom right away. Hi, Hi, Mom.

Hi, sweet.

Mom, okay. I just had the most wonderful conversation with Alice Waters. Oh, what an extraordinary woman she is.

What a huge impact that she's had on this world.

Yes. We have her to thank for the farm to table movement and regenerative farming and sustainability. She brought that into the four.

Absolutely. And got us away from spaghettios.

Yeah, got us away from Spaghettios. Spaghettios.

That's what you grew up on.

Spaghettios and banquet fried chicken dinners. We love that. I happened to mention that in my intro of her. But don't worry, mom, it's all good. It's all fine. Yeah.

Well, you look okay, I hope.

So far, so good. Yeah. She talked about her parents' victory garden. Just to be clear, the victory garden idea was brought about by President Roosevelt, right, mom? Right. During World War II, he encourage people to plant gardens and call them victory gardens in support of the war effort. Can you talk about your victory garden? What was the idea behind it nationally, and then what was your thinking about it when you were a little girl?

I thought it was gigantic. If you planted your vegetables and you had your family eat them, then you would win the war. It was just as simple as that. It was just a victory. Every family would never have to go to the store because you had all your own vegetables and made you independent and made us win the war. I had a fairly small plot that was out the side door. It was a good sunny corner of our house, the backyard.

And you were about seven?

Seven or eight. Right, exactly. I got a hold of seeds, but I planted them way too close together. I didn't quite understand how much space each one needed. Well, at any rate, not too much happened in that garden except for carrots. I remember very well one day riding my bike up the side driveway and seeing these little green tops coming. I thought, Oh, we're winning the war. This is so great. It was so exciting. I tried to keep watching, but I got too excited, so I started to pull them out. They were like little hair carrots. I mean, you could barely see them. They were so darn. Anyway, then I tried to leave some in there, but I just kept getting excited every time I looked at them, did my harvesting way too early.

So they were like little tiny hairpins coming out, carrot hairpins? Exactly. I bet they were tasty because they were so baby. Yes, right.

Very sweet. But all those things that we did, the scrap metal and then tin cans that you gathered, and then you took them to the scrap metal center and you bought victory stamps. And all of those small things that we did seemed to me to be crucial. I really, as I had my red and it was gathering up tin cans. I was convinced that that was going to win the war.

Mom, and wasn't there rationing, too? Oh, yeah.

There was rationing of sugar and butter. We didn't get any butter, but we got olio margarine, which was a white stuff, and then you yellow dye to it. Oh, dear. It was just terrible. It was awful.

What was the idea of the victory garden? What was the idea politically? Why did he suggest that people plant gardens?

I don't know. Somehow, I think probably I'm imagining that was Eleanor Roosevelt because she was very influenced by the work in Cornell. Cornell was the place that had the first really home economics that was not just stupid. I mean, it was very scientific.

Here's what my exterior brain, my phone, is telling me about why Americans were asked to plant victory gardens. Officials reminded Americans that a well-planned victory garden was not only patriotic, but could provide a family with nutritious and tasty food. America had a reputation as a land of plenty, but World War II challenged the nation's ability to grow and distribute food. Because obviously the distribution of food is an expensive undertaking. So that's a really fascinating idea. I know it was such a formative part of your life, and it was a formative part of Alice's life as well, which is just so interesting. Oh, sure. Anyway, I hope that our paths cross again because I really, really like Alice. She's just a lovely person. All right. So you're lovely, too. And now I'm going to say goodbye to Okay.

Well, I will say goodbye to you, too. I love you. Thank you for talking to her and talking to me.

Okay. Love you, mommy. Have a wonderful day.

Okay, thanks. You, too. Bye. Bye.

There's more Wiser Than Me with Lemonada Premium on Apple. You can listen to every episode of Season 3 ad-free. Subscribers also get access to exclusive bonus interview excerpts from each episode. Subscribe now by clicking on the Wiser Than Me podcast logo in the Apple podcast app and then hitting the subscribe button. Make sure you're following Wiser Than Me on social media. We're on Instagram and TikTok at Wiser Than Me, and we're on Facebook at Wiser Than Me podcast. Wiser Than Me is a production of Lemonade Media, created and hosted by me, Julia Louis-Dreyfus. This show is produced by Chrissy Pease, Jamila Zaraa-Williams, Alex McOwen, and Oja Lopez. Brad Hall is a consulting producer. Rachel Neil is VP of New Content, and our SVP of Weekly Content and Production is Steve Nelson. Executive producers are Paula Kaplin Stephanie Widdleswax, Jessica Cordeva-Kramer, and me. The show is mixed by Johnny Vince Evans with engineering help from James Sparber. Our music was written by Henry Hall, who you can also find on Spotify or wherever you listen to your music. Special thanks to Will Schlegel, and of course, my mother, Judith Bowles. Follow Wiser Than Me wherever you get your podcasts.

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