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In the world of recruiting. Some people have seen it all. They build recruiting teams from the ground up, hired hundreds of people in the best companies in the world, developed their expertise year after year. I'm Robin Choi. And I'm on a mission to collect their learnings. These are their stories. Hi, everyone. So today the person who is next to me is Jeff Winner from China. And he will be talking about scaling a team or recruiting team from zero to 50 people. So, Jeff, as we did the math together, 25 years of experience in recruiting and run an agency. So you'll be telling us about it, Jeff, as well. And so today we'll be answering a lot of questions like, when do you need to specialize? What all the tools that you'll be needing? What all the different milestones that you'll be hitting with the recruiting team? What does the split look like? A team of 50 people? What do they do? Exactly? So we'll be covering all this and that's a lot of questions that you have when listening to the podcast as well. So welcome, Jeff, and happy to hear your recipe, even though I know you say there's no recipe about going to 50 people.


So can you start by telling us a bit more about yourself, maybe what the team at Chime looks like today or 50 people? What do they do? Exactly what's displayed? And then we'll take it from there.


Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Robin. Thanks for having me today. So, yeah, my name is Jeff Winter. I am the senior director of talent acquisition over Chime. I have been in recruiting for approximately 25 years. Started off as maybe I'll just tell you a little bit about myself. Started off in agency recruiting, co founded an agency firm that focused on initially contingency, eventually retained RPO. We built a software solution which was eventually sold. But yeah, I've started off as an agency recruiter by accident, like many recruiters do, and eventually got to the point where I decided to go in house and try to effect change internally. After working with so many different clients throughout those 17 years, I thought that there was some benefit in me going inhouse and challenging myself in a different way. And I ended up taking my first in house job at a company called Dumb Tack. It was a real learning experience for me. Fast forward to present day. I am now over at Chime, been here for approximately three years, and was the first recruiter that Chime hired when we were approximately 100 people and now run a team of approximately 50 talent acquisition folks.


And the organization is about 1450 folks today. So quite a significant amount of growth and some top.


So you join as employee number 65, right? That's correct. And then how many people were in the recruiting team at that time in the recruiting team at Thumbtack?


I think when I joined there were probably call it four or five people with a big investment in University recruiting, which was definitely interesting. If I were to build a recruiting function, I don't know if I'd necessarily put in a University recruiting function to start. I would probably build out other aspects of the team. But that team ended up. Yeah, I think we were 65 when I started. We ended up at 750. And my total employees, right? Yeah, 750 employees. The team went from five recruiters are recruiting team of five to Jeez probably about 20 folks in San Francisco and then a sourcing team of approximately 20 sourcers in Salt Lake City. So that was a pretty big move.


So I've seen that over and over again. And one of the big questions is what does it look like? What does the team looks like today at Chime and how do you go there step by step? Because we talk about a lot about sourcing and recruiting. You also mentioned University recruiting. So when you start building those different functions, what is a good time to do this after you on the way from zero to 50 people?


Yeah, it's an interesting journey. When you come into an organization, you're a first recruiter. First of all, there's a lot of shock. I will say you don't necessarily know all the time what's put in place, what's working and what's not. And for better or for worse, it was a little bit different situation. Nothing was necessarily constructed. There was no infrastructure for hiring, certainly not hiring at scale. There was actually a part time recruiting coordinator who is doing all the scheduling and no recruiting team whatsoever. So when you're put into a system like that and you have kind of a Greenfield opportunity, you really need to understand what the business is looking for. And probably one of the center points of how you make decisions in how you organize a team is taking a look at headcount. That's where your eye goes immediately. And that really, really drives how you're going to structure a town function. In the case of Chime, it was let's get the right pieces in place. And I should probably preface this by saying there's no real playbook any problem, you have to approach it a different way, especially when it comes to telling acquisition.


Business priorities change, the actors involved in decision making is changing, you're constrained by finance and so you have to approach how you build a team with those factors in mind. And what you're going to get scrutinized for in the talent acquisition space is how much money are you spending? Like what are the trade offs? Right. And oftentimes you can use agency spend as the lever in how you can basically convince, persuade leaders in an organization. And these are the areas that you need to focus on in building a team. Sourcing obviously is my fundamental go to because that drives a lot of the candidate engagement. It is a sales and marketing vehicle to some extent, because you could have a source or pushing out anywhere from 150 to 200 messages per week a week. Right. And it is an extremely valuable resource that you can manage internally. Right. You can quality control it. More importantly, if the sourcing team is actually functioning at an optimal rate or as optimal as it can be, you're also creating credibility within the organization, and you're creating a trust between talent acquisition and the leaders in the organization and the hiring managers.


I think that's absolutely essential. So going beyond building out the sourcing team, you also need to identify areas of the business that are going to be hiring the most. And that's where it gets a little bit more complex in how you're hiring for your specific recruiters, because oftentimes you're going to have a specialty or you're going to have a hard to fill role or roles and volume as it pertains to engineering hiring. So you'd really need to think about who you are going to bring in. Are you going to bring in generalist technical recruiters? Are you going to bring people that are specializing data science, machine learning? Are you going to bring in somebody that's completely focused on product? And the way that I typically see these things is that I will take technical recruiters and I will say, okay, listen, we got to hire 30, 40 engineers, let's say, and they're going to be full stack engineers. What do we need to do to get those 40 engineers in the door before the end of the year? Now, usually what I do and what I did a chime is I took a look at, OK, it's full stack.


There's a specific language that the organization is using to develop. It was Ruby. That's a wrinkle. That's going to be difficult. And then we're using React native again, another wrinkle. Not a lot of people developing these languages. And so you end up having to increase the sourcing number and the outreach, and then you actually have to hire the right amount of recruiters to get to the volume that you need and manage the candidates. And I think that in this case, I ended up hiring three technical recruiters just to build the foundation, because I was thinking about we need to fill these jobs. We also need to put somebody in place can manage these recruiters because I can't do this all day long. Right. I was doing recruiting myself. I was working on building the infrastructure, et cetera. So we started off with three technical recruiters for those general software engineering roles.


So that's three recruiters.


One manager, hands on manager.




Yeah. Sourcers. We ended up having three sourcers, three.


So that's a team of six to hire 40 people, 40 engineers.


That's for engineering.




And then ended up because data science, machine learning and analytics, people will not find this popular opinion. They're very closely tied in some respects. But I ended up hiring a recruiter to oversee that function, hire six data science, machine learning engineers. And then approximately, I want to call it twelve to 15 analysts. So using that individual because they can cross over. So across those two spectrums or three spectrums, it created some efficiency and ended up that was a perfect fit. So that was another recruiter. And then I had another recruiter who ended up focusing on product management and design because then again, they're very closely related and they oftentimes fall underneath the same product leader.


So she needed to manage how many hires in a year on product.


I believe it was twelve product managers and it was building an entire design team. So that was an additional call 15.


Okay, so there's a big difference between person hiring Ruby engineers, they'll be hiring a bit less than one engineer per month, is that correct?




And the person hiring product managers and designers will be closer to two to three hires per month. So this is how you try and do this. You start with the head count and then you go from there and you'll say, okay, for these type of roles, I'll be needing to a person who will be closing one higher per month, these roles be higher per month. And then you start building the team like this. Is that right?


That is correct. I mean, you have to build in capacity model. So that's actually probably something I should have mentioned is because you have to work the math backward. It is in data driven recruiting, you have to optimize for efficiency and efficiency and cost. And so when you do get the head count, you got to figure out exactly how many hires can you make in a certain period of time. What are the conversions look like? Every town acquisition specialist talks about conversions. Right. That really drives the numbers. Which if you work the math all the way back, it goes all the way back. How many sourcing messages actually need to get set up? That's only if you're relying on sourcing to drive higher. So that's not taking into account employment brand and all the other things that go into it. But one thing that you do do, or at least I did in this case is I knew that 40 wasn't going to be the final number. I knew that there was going to be incremental asks. So I put the investment on that recruiting team. And my expectations were that you wouldn't hire one a month.


You are actually going to be hiring three or four. And as we started to loosen up the organization, they're thinking around, we only have to hire Ruby engineers. Then it started to really flow. Right. Let's take a look. Hire C, Java, Python, et cetera. And once you start that ball rolling and you have that momentum, engineering leaders, founders will say, hey, this is going great, let's turn it up. And that in itself, brings in a whole different level of complexity because it's like, Whoa, hold up. You have to think about all the hiring that you're doing, all the onboarding that's needed to do all the interviewing that you're doing. When are you going to build product?




So it's funny because the recruiters I use is somewhat of a mechanism in which we would slow down hiring just because we could see the pain we're inflicting on the engineering team. There has to be some thoughtfulness around how you scale. Right. Which is a big role that I ended up playing quite often, I think.


And how do you sell these internally when you start so you start building the recruiting team and so you're basically asking for more headcount yourself in your team that you're supposed to need, but eventually you'll need this. How do you apply this internally? How do you ask for more people in the team? And how do you say that that person will be hiring one person per month when you'll know she'll be hiring two to three people per month? Yeah.


You get hired and you report directly to the CFO.




That was my experience. No. But on a more serious note, you end up having to formulate a plan and it goes back to the head count. And in the case of Chime, it was rather simple. They were spending a significant amount of money on agencies, agents, and getting very few hires and not making an investment into the talent acquisition as a whole. Keep in mind, they had a part time coordinator. So when you take that number and that spend, it's very easy to make an argument to say, I need to structure a team that is going to be sustainable long term for the organization, and it's going to cost you this, and it's significantly less than what you're paying for agencies.


It's an easy sell.


It's an easy sell, especially to finance folks. And so me being somewhat of a former business owner and understanding that it's a business, money matters. You have to make certain tradeoffs and you have to take a chance on certain things.


And my other question would be, so when you're doing this for the first time, how do you know the efficiency that you can expect from a recruiter? How do you understand the market? How do you know that the Ruby recruiter will be hiring one person per month and product manager recruiter will be hiring three people per month? How do you do this? How do you create the data? How do you get the data and how do you use it internally to back your predictions as well?




Not an easy number to get, right?


It's not an easy number to get. And maybe this is my failing, but I oftentimes think that it's intuitive or it should be intuitive. I mean, maybe I've been in the business too long and I know how long it takes to fill things, but I'm also relatively data driven, so I keep benchmarks in my mind, I know exactly what a benchmark is for an engineering hire. Product, higher design, higher.


Can you share numbers with?


Yeah, absolutely. I think healthy numbers for engineering hiring is likely going to be, let's call it 50% technical phone screen to onsite, hopefully 45% to 50% on site to offer. Ideally, you want more like 60, and then the offer to accept gets relatively interesting. Healthy numbers for that dependent on organization is 64% between 60% to 64%. Oftentimes I've been questioned in my career, like, why are we down to 45% engineering hiring or engineering offer except and it could be comp, it could be market influence, it could be brand awareness, it could be a lot of different things that drive that number down. It could be decision making, it could be calibration and leveling, et cetera. But when you start buying on the other side of the equation, when you start seeing like 80% close rate in engineering, too high, too high, you're paying too much. Right. And so that's also something you need to regulate. Okay.


We'll have a very good episode with brief from Convey talking about how the closing rate changes during the year and how sometimes it's interesting. So the number one thing is to monitor the close rate and then to understand that maybe you don't need to extend a little further in February because you'll have a better close rate in March. So you just need to wait for three more days.


I would agree with that to some extent. However, September typically have been like the slowest month in the month in the last couple, I don't know, 15 years, with the exception of the last two years. I don't know what's gone on. But it's like, okay, September is going to be the slow one, and all sudden you've got like record Highers. But that also might be a product of comp changes throughout the year, too, and adjustments because the market has gotten just bananas in the last two years in terms of compensation for Texas when it comes to recruiting quotas.


So can you share a few numbers like what you said, product manager. Recruiter should be hiring 30 people per year. Engineering should be that number. Do you have ballparks to share as well on this?


Yeah. I tend to gravitate more towards engineering because it tends to be the one that people want to really talk about. So my expectations of recruiters in my organization now is that they hire for engineers per month, which isn't a huge goal.


That's working with the source.




They're not doing the sourcing themselves.


They tend to do some prospecting.




I call it prospecting. I actually split up sourcing and the terminology sorcerer source. Prospecting is done by recruiting.


Okay. What's the difference?


Source will be dedicated to sending out X amount of messages, 100 and 5200 messages a week. Recruiters might be goal to sending out 30 to 50 depending on the search that they're working on and managing candidate experience throughout the interview process, as well as working with hiring managers and giving them insight into pipelines.


Okay. And Sorcerers, you're saying 150 to 200 messages a week. That's 600 to 800 a month. And what's the interview rate that you can expect from this? Like, do they get 5% interview rate? So that would be 30 interviews per month?


Approximately, yes. So if your reply rate is around 6%. 68% and it varies, of course, depending on what's your reply. Right. Positive reply rate, then you can usually count on some source I think they're generating in some cases ten phone screens per week. Right. And 60% of those actually go into technical phone screens. And then you've got your 45% to 50% conversion rate to on site. So again, that's not the only channel that we use is the sourcing. We also use social media and referrals, etc. For. But I tend to take a look at those. I want 33% of my hires to come from sourcing, I want the other 33 to come from social and the final 33 to come through referrals.




Very easy number for me to remember. I'm not smart.


It's a number I hear a lot.


Yeah. But you go your technical recruiter to four hires per month often times what ends up happening. If it's a mobile search, it's going to be more difficult. If it's like a senior or staff level person, you can expect the volume to be lower. If they have to have knowledge in fintech or, you know, graph, like anything specific, the number will certainly fluctuate. So I mean, back in the day I worked at a quantum computing company. The expectation to hire a quantum physicist was one higher per month. Maybe there's a thousand of them in the world, like working on this type of thing, but you have to go people appropriately and then hold them accountable. As a leader. You have to also think about what's the complexity of the search and make sure that everybody's on the same page. Expectations are set across the board between recruiting and hiring managers.


All right. And before we move on to the other functions, because I know out of these 50 people, not all of them are sourcers or recruiters. So there's probably about 20 people doing other things in sourcing and recruiting. So we'll cover this as well before we move there. So you pretty much said that you started with a split team, so you need to hire 40 engineers plus twelve product managers, 15 designers, a bunch of people. So you have a team of ten people, more or less.


Is that right? It's about 1012. Yeah. Including myself, also doing work.




I told you I wasn't smart. I'm not good at math.


So that's a good number. And then what if you are hiring only ten people per year? So you'll probably have just one recruiter. Probably. At what stage do you start building the sourcing function?


Well, I've actually had a couple of conversations with companies that call me about this, too. And I'm like, well, they're like, yeah, we're not getting the traction. We're not doing this. We're not doing that. I'm like, you guys are 250 people. Like, why aren't you getting the candidate volume that you're looking for? We've got seven recruiters. What's your employment brand doing for you? I don't know. Again, 250 person organization. They have no what's happening with their pipelines or anything, which is the funneling to me. And there was a company where I was like, wait, okay. And I go, how many sources do you have? I'm not going to name the company, by the way. We don't have sources. How do you not have sources? That's the fundamental component of a town acquisition team. Like, you're 250 people, and you're expecting recruiters to source and close? Not a chance. Like, make the investment because your people are going to leave. You're going to need those sources to come up and fill those spots. That's part of your job as a leader to develop that talent. Right. And sorry if we're getting off topic there slightly, but like, if you're hiring ten per year, a recruiter can do that relatively easily.


Right? They're eventually going to want a little bit of space, and they're going to want to develop their own person. That's just natural. You want to hire somebody. You want to train them and mentor them and grow them. I've done it. A lot of the agency folks that came up with me, I've had 40 agency recruiters. They're off doing their own thing. Now they're running businesses. They're leading big initiatives of well known organizations. But you want to grow them, you want to teach them. So going back to the question, I think, at what point do you make an investment of the sourcing? I think it's immediate. Sourcing is, again, a critical component of how you get the message out to the broader audience of people that you're a company. Right. Again, it goes back to them being a sales and marketing vehicle for you. You gotta happen. You gotta have. Aside from just generating candidates for you, they're also promoting the brand. So there's a side effect. You got somebody that's pushing out 100 and 5200 messages a week to an engineering community. People are going to start taking notice. You coupled that with employment brand.


You get that out there like, you're lighting the fire. All right.


So your advice would actually be the first recruiter you hire, you pad them with the sorcerer, right?


I would. Okay, if I can go one for one, and I know that the volume and head count is going to be significantly larger and going to create that valid business case for that spend like, yeah, bring them both in at the same time.


All right. And when you start hiring people outside of recruiting and sourcing, and again, what does the team look like today? 50 people, how many of them in sourcing, recruiting and other roles and what all the other rules?


So when you're given a Greenfield opportunity, like I was fortunate in having, I guess in retrospect you need to be able to show some value to the business and that comes with output of hires. So your recruiters, your source, those are the ones that are going to generate that output. As you start to gain that momentum, there are other things you need to invest in. Employment Brand, candidate experience.


University at some point.


University at some point, but only when the company is prepared, only when they can support it. It's such a critical piece of the business, like long term business, you need to make sure that the organization can support that. But going back to the original question, it's as people start sorcerers and recruiters and RCS start to develop and you start to build a more solidified recruiting infrastructure, you can then say, oh, this person actually has the ability to do this piece and this person can do that piece and you have to build the town operations function because you need to be able to manage the data, you have to be able to see exactly what's going on in the business and you also need to be able to invest in the Employment brand. I was fortunate to hire somebody who I'm not going to say his name for fear of recruitment. So you'll have to do your own research. But this particular gentleman came in and led the RC function and he was like on point when it came to project management, what's, Corsi recruiting coordination.




And I'm like, all right, I'm putting in the building blocks for Employment Brand. I need you to do this. He's like, I don't know anything about that. I'm like, I'll teach you. Like, you've got the DNA to run this. Here you go. He's insane. It goes back to the development. You have to take these people, identify potential, not just for the job that they're going to do when they get there, but what they could do. And so I've tried to do that with my teams. Historically, I am going to move you over here where you're going to benefit. I've proven that recruiting and sourcing is a critical component of the business. We've got the output, we've got the hires. Now I can make the argument I'm going to spend half a million dollars in Employment Brand and this person is going to lead it, right? Business buys into it. You've already established credibility. They're not going to push back. They're going to expect the ROI on the Employment Brand, which science project sometimes, but eventually they're like, okay, it's working and so it's easy to move people around. So when you start putting in the components like Employment Brand, your sourcing is running well.


Candidate experience is doing great. Referrals are flowing in. It starts to get a little bit more momentum. The business starts to grow, the revenues being generated, it makes a case for and headcount increases. Okay, now I have to hire these people to support this. You want to hire? Last year we hired 740 people. We went from $250 to $1400. Like, I might have a heart attack just sitting here. But when I started saying I need to make this sort of spend and I started doing all the capacity planning and showing execs, of course, cutting check, within reason. Let's be clear. Like, I still get scrutinized. I'm totally cool with it. But I can point to performance metrics. I can point to how I hold people accountable. Again, former business owner. Like, you have to have that sort of mindset. Yeah, sorry, did I overspeak? No, I'm getting excited.


When you start specializing people. So what I understand is you start with either sorcerers or recruiters, and then you have people grow. You have people hire people, build trust in Tony, you do this using reports, data, stats. And once you're there, then you start investing in other support functions. When does that happen? Is that 30 people, 20 people, 45 people?


I don't know if there's a specific timeline when you actually do that. During the lifecycle, I think for me, it was about coming in with a strategy, and I'll go back to that 33, 33, 33 thing. Right. I think that's your hires, you have a recruiting and sourcing team that's going to be able to do that. Employment brand has to generate it. But it's like you go and you're like, hey, listen, this is what I see is the three areas that you make the investment into in talent acquisition. Oh, no. Roi EB employment brand. Like, no, we want output. Right. If you've seated it with the executives and employment brand referrals, sometimes they're just like, whatever, show me how many hires you can brand. But since you've actually laid out the strategy and they have a clear understanding to some extent that this is going to be your plan moving forward. As the business starts to scale, you can start moving the pieces together. You can start building out those other functions again. There's no set timeline when that occurs. It has to happen naturally, and you have to be on top of it. Town acquisition leaders intuitively know, I hope that you have to do these things in incremental stages, and you have to be prepared to do it at the right time or anticipate it coming down the pipeline.


Like, you're creating credibility, you're showing the output and there's value. All right, now I'm going to go ask for, I don't know.


Oh, you asked for employer branding.


Employment branding. Absolutely. Because that is long tail marketing that only drives it's also a Multiplicator. Right.


It increases the sourcing results.


Your reply rate lift. Like people start talking about referrals, get excited or internal, folks. And I'll be honest, we haven't spent a lot of money unemployment brand. We haven't had to. We started off real small because again, business case, we're going to test it. And then now you look at it today we're producing videos, we do Spotlights, we focus on diversity. There's a bunch of exciting things that happen in Climate brand. But we didn't start it off with a million dollar check. We started off with like 40K doing well.


If you do see.


You go to the usuals use LinkedIn, right, right. Yeah, I might have heard about them. They own the market. Yeah. So many opinions. But you start off with things like LinkedIn, you do internal things like little Spotlights for employees. You put a lens on diversity, you talk more about it and you attend events that are important to you. Right. I believe and probably not. I know we're talking about recruiting and scale, but I believe diversity is critical. And it's not just about showing up to events, it's actually taking part, being passionate about it. Right. I want to do women impact tech. I want to do AfroTech. I want to do these things because it's important. Like take a look at technology in the space we're in. It's not as diverse as it should be. So, you know, you start making moves in that area and start caring about it, and then it becomes really easy to invest in employment brand or it makes people feel good about what they're investing in.


Do you at some point invest in referrals? Like, do you have a single person responsible for referrals today, or how do you grow those? Because what we see in theory could be 33% in realities, often closer to 15% or 20%. I don't know how much you're seeing at Chime, but, yeah. How do you increase this as long as the sourcing capacity and recruiting capacity, capacity, employer branding as well, increases?


Yeah. We actually stay at steady state at 33%. 33%. So I guess it's not steady state because there's like a two point difference. Right. Hey, I'm getting better at math. So you'd ask, how is it run? Former recruiting coordinator who is very programcentric, very project management oriented or has that mindset. He started doing interview, shadowing programs and training and things like that. We built out all that infrastructure under his watch or he ended up adopting some of it, but we moved that program underneath Doug. Doug monitors it and make sure that referrals are being reached out to under the SLAs that we created.


Did you have for employees or for recruiters?


Sla for recruiters. I think that's the thing. Like in a referral program, you just can't have people referring people and nobody actioning that referral.




That'll ruin. Right. So we do spend Doug spends a lot of time making sure the recruiters are on point, making sure the integrity of the referral program stays intact.


How do you enforce the seller? What is it? Response time? Right?


Yeah, it's 48 hours.


How do you enforce this?


You don't want me hitting you up. You didn't reach out. It is difficult, though, because we get a tremendous amount of volume. But we talk about it quite a bit. It's an extremely valuable channel of qualified candidates oftentimes, so you have to watch that.


Cool. So we're almost at the end. Jeff, thanks a lot. It's super interesting. And I like the numbers, even though you say not good at match and able to share a lot of very interesting numbers. Thanks a lot for this last two questions. You know about those questions. The number one is what's the number one advice you would give to your younger self? And the second question is, who is the most impressive person you'd like to hear on the podcast? And would you recommend me to interview on the podcast?


What would I recommend to my younger self?




Become a doctor. Would you actually, I don't know. I think that like many, I fell into recruiting and I liked the challenge. And I like to people and people in recruiting say some people in recruiting say I moved into recruiting because I wanted to help people. I moved into recruiting because it was agency. It was 100% Commission. And I liked the pressure of potentially not being successful in it.


Very close to sale in that way.


Yeah, very close to sales. I was also younger, so the dollar drove everything. Right.


You stayed there?


I stayed there because I liked the challenge. And it turns out I was actually pretty good at deal closing. I could build trust with people. I never, ever lied when I was talking to them about a potential. I never took a client that I didn't believe in.


We also have a very good episode. Deal closing with Jose Gurdato.




Jose talked to him yesterday. It will be a good one.


Jose Gordono is one of the people from Gravity from back in the day. He is a first of all, he's a wonderful person. He's also highly energetic. And he was one individual that I really liked having a gravity. And I wouldn't say that I taught him how to recruit. I think he has the same DNA as I do. I want to be successful at this. And he also is capable of reading people way before they even know what they're going to do. It's frightening cushion.


So don't spell it.


Okay. All right. Yeah. Jose, he's a wonderful person. You've got Malium, too, I believe.




He is an extremely thoughtful leader. He has a soothing calm about him that will lull you. It is amazing. He's an amazing individual as well. By the way, listen to Mike Moriarty.




I've never heard that guy talk before. It's pretty amazing. He's pretty legit.


He's one of my favorite as well.


Really? I mean, I listen to him. He's way more articulate than I am. But no, he had some very interesting things to say and it didn't deviate too much from my thinking, which I was like he's a Dropbox doing something right. I don't know.


So last question is who is the person you recommend me to interview? So you've been talking about Melbourne that you recommended as Jose and Mike, is there anyone else that you think you should interview and the answer can be no.


Yes. I'm calling out Matt Burnbaum.




Matt is a good person.


Coming for you, Matt.


Yeah, coming for you, Matt. I don't know where you're hiding these days. There is another gentleman who I thought was very thoughtful. I've only had a couple of conversations with him. But Brandon sly is another one. I believe he just recently moved over to Sequoia. And if you haven't talked to Luke basida, I haven't. You haven't. Luke Bacita at light speedventures. He's somebody that I have deep respect for and talk to quite often.


Cool. So, Matt, Brandon, Luke, if you're listening to us, coming for you.


Yeah, he's going to get you, dude. He's going to get you guys.


Very persistent. Cool.


Thanks a lot.


Jeff was a great discussion and stay in touch.


Thanks for having me.


Hey there. This is Robert. Most of our listeners come from word of mouth so thanks a lot for your support and if you enjoy the players, please keep on sharing it with your team and friends. Stay tuned for the next episode and if you can't wait, follow me on LinkedIn for more content on recruiting talk to you next week. Bye.