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Balance wins scales, but teamwork wins championships.


Welcome to eight players. But guess what? We'll tell you how to target, hire, retain and train top performers for your team.


OK, go tell me what x what our policy is from on site to offer in twenty nineteen to twenty twenty.


Have them go in, feel the pain and how dirty all that data is and have them come to you and say, oh well we had better data, I can do this. I had to scrub through ten thousand lines of Excel when I exploded it. And it's up you know or I can't tell you this because I don't have it. So that's one strategy we use as well. But you need to think about how you're going to bring your team along with you.


And it needs as a leader, you got to have a vision for your team. This is in there. You can slowly grow it. I would argue that you're behind the eight ball at this point and you need to aggressively go look at your data and make sure what's there and fix it.


I am Robin shows you at Higher Suites and we are sourcing automation software that helps of the companies hire the best talent at me. And follow me now on LinkedIn. You want to keep an eye on this?


Hi, everyone.


Today we are having Mike Moriarty. He's a global head of talent acquisition at Dropbox, joining in twenty seventeen Xbox. Everybody knows about them, right? The six hundred million users offices in 12 cities. And today, Mike manages a team of hundred twenty people.


Is that right, Mike? Yeah, that's correct. Cool. Thanks.


So very happy to have you here today. And to hear about the secret sauce behind the talent acquisition team. Did I miss anything in the introduction? And can you tell us a bit more about your background?


I'm happy to know. I think that's mostly it, Robyn. I think I can give a brief background how I even got in there. I'm one of those folks that fell into recruiting, I guess, later in life. I started my career as a commission only employee in San Francisco selling financial services to whoever would talk to me. And I didn't realize how much that would shape my recruiting career because being commission only and working for one hundred and fifty five year old institution, one of the biggest learnings I have and the competitive talent or output based on every individual in that company is really based on how well they resource their time.


And so they had a system that really helped that was proven over a long period of time, obviously, to manage your time and to understand how efficient you were with that time. And in that in that business obviously relates to dollars. So if I were living in San Francisco, a very expensive city, I was from San Francisco, so I was making cold calls. I made forty four calls a day for my whole life. It seems like I had to understand how they how I get those calls, how those calls would go, how many meetings I would have, and then also how many meetings would turn into dollars.


And then you can essentially work backwards from there to understand how to efficiently around your business. And so I did well in that industry for a while. I kind of had my eat, pray, love moment, which try for a different podcast and ultimately found my way into into sourcing. I Google, which I know is random in a funny story. We can tell it at the time, but I got to Google the the probably one of the coolest, if not the coolest company of our generation at the time.


They were scaling like crazy obviously. And I was the second person that Google ever took a risk on to hire without a technical background or recruiting background ever. And I got in and they kind of started telling me, like what Java was. And I thought it was coffee, obviously, at the time. And what this programming language was, I just thought it would be the easiest job ever because of who doesn't want to work at Google. And so I quickly learned that it wasn't that easy.


I understand the difference between hiring passive talent versus active talent. And then I was also I was a competing, but there was one hundred and thirty hundred forty sources at the time at Google and they had stacks. Thank you. Every quarter from total number of offer extends. I remember talking to my lead and he's like, okay Mike, you need to get about four offer extends every quarter. That's your goal. So fucking great. One of the top performers doing and stuff like seven or eight so quickly.


How many onsides do I need once I understood the process to kind of get them to an offer, any kind of gave me the number and then I was like, well, what does it take to get it on sight? I will never forget this, Rob. And he looked at me with such a blank stare. He was like, I don't know, just do a lot. And I was shocked. The epitome of this company that has analytics on human beings and how you click and all the other things really had no idea how to run a printing business like a business.


And so then I took upon myself to say, OK, let me learn. So I just asked everybody who would listen to me. I took them to to coffee, which was freaking awesome, didn't cost me anything. And I just ask them, right. Like, Hey, how do you do this? Why do you do this? And I was probably incredibly annoying for the first couple of months because I would just ask questions and I wanted to ask people who were at the top of that leaderboard that was public and after the first quarter there and I think I took one hundred and thirty hundred and forty people, I was second to last.


I was terrible and I was really afraid I'll get fired. And so at that point I made this call and it was kind of based on desperation, slash kind of inspiration and confidence. I know how to do this. It's just in a different way. So I recreated this system that was taught to me at this financial company at Google, and I reverse engineered my numbers and I started tracking on a. Piece of paper, how many calls I made or how many e-mails I sent, how many people will get back to me on the phone?


How many of those phone conversations would move to a phone screen? I mean, those phone screens were going on inside as onsides. Wilmington offers, you get large numbers and pass the rates. And every quarter after that, I was in second place in the whole organization, never getting first place, which obviously still bugs me. I wouldn't say it publicly, but I think what shocked Google was not only this this rise to production, but also the consistency where they can then say, oh, we can expect X amount of output from Mike.


And I could sit there and tell them. And I knew my math. I knew I needed to talk to 15 people a week to do this based. And I was getting more efficient. And I'd look back at my business every two weeks and say, OK, how could I better decipher who's going to get through or have different conversations or code cover, better objections early to increase the efficiency of my posters. And I think once they got wind of that, then we started piloting it and it kind of caught on by wildfire.


I built the internal Google sheet that's still being used today, which is funny, and it's just that we were able to scale sourcing and be able to better performance manage, etc, etc. So that's really kind of how I'm down there and how kind of in this industry and obviously Google not. And then obviously a lot of companies have left there and taken the spreadsheet with them, including myself, as I've gone on to Dropbox and brought that here roughly four years ago and was able to really empower people to run their recruiting.


That's like a business which was shocking to me that it's nearly never been looked at that way. So that's kind of my background and why I'm fortunate enough to be talking to you today.


Yeah, what's very impressive or interesting, at least, is that these methods have been in place in the financial industry, sales, marketing for years. But it seems there are still regarded as very new in the recruiting industry. And so when we decided on the on the topic for this episode, we finally settled on the how to use data to manage your talent acquisition team like a business and talent acquisition, like a business. But most of these strategies actually come from the sales industry and ah, it seems rather easy to set up and to create in your organization.


So what are the first steps that recruiting teams need to implement to set up the strategies and make a better use of data to improve their hiring processes?


Yeah, I think rehearses understanding data. And to your point, there's tools out there. A lot more now in recruiting, but they've been there for hundreds of years in sales. And so I think one of the biggest challenges you're going to have, you haven't thought about this as you started is data integrity.


You're going to look back at your internal system and you're going to probably uncover what we uncovered at Dropbox is that our data was dirty. So meaning what we got out of it really wasn't accurate or honestly that useful. So what you call you need to make is depending on the throwing up air quotes here virtually, but like how dirty your data is. And the good thing about data is you can go back and understand what those are and you can we put in a lot of programs here to go retroactively back into our systems and clean up our data.


And then we actually said, OK, there's now around data integrity, around the fields and our tools that we need to be a thousand percent accurate. When we look at the leads in the high seas on that part of the challenge there is doing that. And then you're going to get a bunch of people who have not had to do this. They're going to look at it like busywork. They're not going to like you very much. I've lived I've lived this world a couple of times in my life.


And I think it's important if you're a leader in these organizations to really paint the picture to the why. What is the value that going to get out of this? And that is going to be, in my opinion, and which I've proven is efficiency in their business. They're going to be able to have a better conversation with the hiring manager. If you're a recruiter or sitting right now and you're hiring managers, asking for more pipeline, more pipeline, more pipeline, which I imagine all of us get on a weekly basis without this data, you can't sit down and understand that it's actually more pipeline and more.


Richards might not be the best solution for them, meaning a lot of people are coming in, but they're just maybe all getting caught at the phone's ringing stage. And so you're pastorate for the phone initiate really down. So what are you doing to assess that snag? Because if you fix that snag, maybe the rest of your pipeline is running efficiently. And so throwing more people into a broken leg isn't a good business decision to waste your candidate's time.


It's a waste of your public perceptions, wasting recruiting time. And so it empowers you to truly be how we hire Dropbox's to empower people to run it like a business. Like if you were accountable to the output of that job to pay your rent, I pretty much wouldn't. I would think that most of us would need to understand these things to make sure the output was great and accurate and on time and one hundred percent perfect for the hiring manager.


Otherwise, we have no place to be more urgency. That's the biggest thing I've learned and how I have to recreate that in a world where someone's income isn't derived on it as much. Obviously pay for performance with performance management, but they're still going to get paid every two weeks or whatever it is your company. So you need to look back your systems you need to make. What data you have and how accurate is and put in the plan and time to do it, but before you do all that, you got to bring your team with you.


And there's different ways to do that. You can give them some challenges, like, OK, go tell me what x what our posture is from on site to offer in twenty nineteen to twenty twenty, have them go in, feel the pain and how dirty all that data is and have them come to you and say, oh well if we had better data I could do this. I had to scrub through ten thousand lines of Excel when I exploded it and it sucked you know or I can't tell you this because I don't have it.


So that's one strategy we use as well. But you need to think about how you're going to bring your team along with you. And it needs as a leader, you've got to have a vision for your team. And if this is in there, you can slowly grow it. I would argue that you're behind the eight ball at this point and you need to aggressively go look at your data and make sure what's there and fix it as soon as possible.


And so if we even get closer to the reality. So today, what's your recruiting stuck at Dropbox, which is you use?


So we use Green House and then we use Jim as our CRM and strategist, and then we display our data, we use Tableau and those are really our main tools. Then obviously we have LinkedIn recruiter, which we pay them a little too much money and they basically have rights to my next child. But it's a default all the way in this industry. Greenhouse and Jim are really our lifeline. Our recruiting are OK.


And so you said, you know, have essays on the fields that need to be accurate in greenhouse. So what are the main fields that you use today? Yeah, for us.


Well, a good thing about technology to your earlier point, is that there's a lot of technology coming, recruiting to solve for this. So the good thing about Jerm for us is when they when you say the PDF of a resume of their profile and bring it into your system, auto scrapes, all the data out of the school, the previous companies that are all that automatically comes in because I was the mean manager that used to make people do that.


Part of the issues you got to do with that to a school is validate your schools like you don't want MIT and Massachusetts Institute of Technology in the same field because of those two schools. Right. To do something there. So a lot of it is automated. So what we're recruiting and sourcing have to own some important things to us, our diversity, which some of that gets caught. And when you apply online, we have an tag comment based on what you select under the agreement.


But if you're sourced or whatever else we understand, it's not a hundred percent accurate. But we ask the team to tag the candidates. We understand that our efficiencies and those pipelines as a recruiter, we really need to make sure our competing offers are filled out because it's a way we have a great partnership with our total rewards and comp team. If the industry is moving faster than our Gartner poll to be able to compete in certain teams or locations, we want to have those conversations to help influence our team, to maybe pull these reports sooner and so we can do things there.


We want to understand kind of where the people are at currently as Dropbox is maybe tomorrow virtual first approach you want to understand, like how we're doing in different markets.


And then some of the big things is why are we winning? Why are we losing? We're really big on decline analysis, decline re-engagement. So we clearly want to understand the real reason, which is usually layered. Unfortunately, it's not just comp or this. It's a combination of things. But we really want to make sure those fields are as updated as possible to make sure we understand that again so we can address the company, adjust our sales pitch, adjust whatever and or re-engagement.


We want to make sure if we do talk to somebody, we understood why they left and that we've addressed that if they do want to come back in a seamless way. So those are some of the fields that we asked the team to do, but with an aim over time to obviously think about this as an efficiency play. We want to make sure those fields are when they can be automatically collected from any part of our process. We want to put that in there and then we want to show them the importance of one of the data comes out, why we're asking them to do that.


And we walk people through kind of this re-engagement strategy or other things. And so think of an example for university recruiting. I'm sure like every company out there, you get a bunch of online applications. Plus we have a team go out there fishing for some.


We have a lot of people going to our process that just don't necessarily get through or go through someone else. Those are warm leads for Dropbox. They've had a conversation with us. They at least were interested to engage us at some point. I don't want that relationship to go away. And we want to have we want to be able to pull all those people back. Maybe you can depend on the timeline. Eighteen months, two years. And when you have open pipeline for level 2s, maybe you can then re-engage and just you can say, hey, listen, we talked to a couple years ago, it didn't work out versus hoping to go find all these people again.


And so we try to put in there their years of experience with durations. We can make some estimations on level, but it really depends on what metrics are important to you and what story you're trying to tell. And with a goal of less clicks for recruiters because they already go through a lot to get someone close to the search. Dropbox, they do.


So these are the main fields information you want to track on everyone. And what are the main KPIs, the main pass-through rate that everybody must know in the recruiting process? Somebody's listening to us and having absolutely no idea what their numbers are. What? Five numbers they should know about their process. I think it kind of depends on who you are. So if you're my level, you have different KPIs, right? So I look at overall headcount, this decline analysis, where we're losing folks, where we're winning diversity.


Time to fill time to close those types of stats. Overall, I think as the next layer down, what you're really looking for is, again, like efficiency of business. So we look at it from like bottom of the funnel. So we actually we have a talent brand team one person, amazing team names, Moriyama.


She's incredible, but she looks at our sentiment and that can be measured a bunch different ways. But how people are clicking in, how long are they spending? What's our Glassdoor overall score? Things like that, like what is the market doing and what do they think of us when they do think of us? Are they coming to us then when they're in your process? You look at which sources are they coming through? So online is a big one.


As far as the start of our process, that's about two thirds of the people that apply here come to that channel. And so we assess that as a whole. But then also the slices, you just come to our jobs page, you click on LinkedIn that you come to Glassdoor. Did you go to an event and click on our thing? Another channel for us is sourced to be passively engage you. Those channels seem to be more competitive, usually are on sites there.


You know, of a talent bar that we proactively had a job. They weren't actively looking for a job. So you look at those metrics, referrals, it's a great source of hiring for all recruiting teams. And so you want to make sure those candidates, not only the candidates, but the referrer are looped in your process. We don't look at the efficiency of that, but they the experience of that one has looked at on both sides. And then if you have any, like events or things like that.


So we look at those funnels or those that I think we call channels and we make sure we have the past traits from each state. So from application to the recruiter screen, whether to figure out how to call and said yay or nay or they said yay or nay based on the conversation. Then you look at the phone screen is typically a first step in a recruiting process. So just to pass the rate of of there and then who gets to the phone screen to an on site and then an on site to an offer and then an offer to an offer, accept or decline to a terminal decision.


And so then the layers within there and this is where it gets confusing. But it's kind of exciting for a data nerd like me. It's like you have these four or five channels depending on your organization. There's a lot of things horizontal and you can look at within their diversity. You can look at female, you can look at underrepresented minority. You can look at level, you can look at location. And then we quantify it all by skillset. So are you a front, an engineer or your product manager or are you a salesperson?


We look at that layer horizontally across that as well, because a lot of times if you don't have those cuts, you'll say, well, San Francisco's doing terrible there. Their onsite rate is way down. You click in, it's like, oh, it's just our internal sales organization that they on sales, that percentage of our hiring has gone way down. So we don't have a San Francisco problem. We have a San Francisco sales problem. And you can even go one layer deeper.


We have a San Francisco L two to three problem. And so, again, it's like knowing your business, you might just say, oh, we need to fix San Francisco or that's not really your problem and you're spending time inefficiently on solving the wrong problem. So we have these horizontal cuts, I think we call it Catana inside because it's a slice of data. But we have the standard slices of data that we have across all of our tableau reports.


And that's something I've only been in this seat one year officially as the head. I've been in other roles prior. And that was one of my first initiatives, is to have the same cuts of data across all of our dashboards to make sure when you're looking at any report, you can look at it by these standard things and it allows and empowers the team to really dig in and understand the true problem. And then obviously, in theory, at least in practice, Dropbox get to a better solution.


And so I'm curious to understand how the blue fits in the mix. So you'll use that to what? Visualize those katanas? Exactly. Who's on Tumblr? Is the hiring manager on Thelo? Is it only the recruiting manager wasn't there? Yeah.


So depending on the report, we have like a high level KPI report for recruiting. That's me, my boss and our CEO president. That's really it. And then we have other views to where you're hiring manager. We have a view for you. And our aim is to be transparent with data. And I think the piece about data that I haven't highlighted yet that is incredibly change the culture of Dropbox. And I'll get back to the Tabo question a minute.


Is having the transparency of data became less then? This is a recruiting problem and finger pointing. This became a recruiting environment. This is an US problem and we're able to show him or her you have more than enough on sites for this role and no one's gotten through or no one's accepted. So the system a more pipeline from this is that we're bringing in the wrong pipeline. We're screening wrong problem, we're selling together problem wrong. And so it's really brought the team together.


When I first got to Dropbox, it was, I would call it part of a finger pointing organization. We're trying to do more. Recruiting is more it is very much now a partnership. We work in very close partnership with all things that we do with our leaders and those organizations to look at the data and make those decisions.


So back to the questions. We have these cuts of data by hiring manager or if you. A manager of managers and I have a whole organization, you have these views, Miralles, of who's in pipeline by stage, what are the pastoralists within there and are they in line with what we'd expect based on historic views?


And then we have these easy codes based on how long people of a role should be open, meaning nothing more flag as a bad thing in the first 30 days of a role being open because it shouldn't be full. We shouldn't have enough on sites at this time because it's so early. But once 30 days, it's like, OK, do we have enough people on screen and on site based on this role that we should expect? And it's either like a thumbs up or a screen check or whatever it is, or a red X, and it really allows the hiring manager and whoever is helping them with the rig have those conversations.


It's usually more prevalent in our non-traditional roles. About 60, 65 percent of roles are what we call evergreen roles that are just always on service roles that are usually open all the time. But on the more Nichi one ofthe roles, we have different timelines based on those being open and we and allows like really transparency. Where some highlights have come recently is they've noticed, I forget the name of the role, so I excuse me, but we've reached out.


We looked at the market, we looked at this really unique role and we found that we pretty much e-mailed most of the market in San Francisco that gets this minimum qualification. So if we send another email, it's really not going to help us. So what we can do let's try. We can we send some emails from his account through John, which was a level to do. And then we tried to have like a public series, like a conversation with him about the role and that was able to drive out some more some pipeline that people that didn't respond to our initial email, to the later response.


And if we didn't have that data, I think we just sort of spammed everyone else again and pissed him off even more that they didn't respond to us. So things like that have really been good to Tablo Visualises and is transparent with what is good, what's great and what's not so great. And as any person in recruiting and or beta, you know, we have these I don't know, have these expectations to be perfect at the end of the month and the quarter and the end of the year.


And it's just not fair. There's no way we're going to be hitting every mark today. We're going to be hitting those marks today, but not everyone. Right. And then those will shift tomorrow. We're dealing with humans and a pandemic, et cetera. So I think our charge with this transparency is to show the variance and what goes on in our world. We can show prioritization where we're moving the dial and then to thought partner and say here's what we think or seen another other to be successful with this problem.


But let's think about this problem together, because this isn't a recruiting problem. This is this is the worst problem when our job is to hire the right person at the right time for the right role for you. So that's really helped us with that. And we we give and then there's certain sets of like executive that are confidential that we don't show up or diversity stays pretty controlled, understandably. But we share a lot of those stats, real time update every day, pull from greenhouse.


And those have been built over the last 18 months to avoid the pings or the conversations where hiring managers and meeting with their manager, they can just pull up their stuff and have that conversation right there versus having to pull and recruiting because we want to empower them to run. We want them to engineer more so more project management for our jobs to recruit. We don't want them worried about what's going on or have questions or no visibility into what's going on.


And then it's also way easier to explain the concept we discussed before, which is productivity per resource. And you'll talk to him.


Yeah, it's a performance tool, one. I think it's a metric we all should be probably living and dying by, especially when times are tough. It's something you should know to resource your team. It's there's a lot of variables and people do it a lot differently. But it's we look at it all the time. And I've had a lot of conversations, a lot of leaders and friends in this industry. And it's something we all think about. But having this, I used to run just global sourcing when I started at Dropbox and they didn't have any of this data.


They weren't collecting search data. So they would start a search over every other week for the same role, same location. And they didn't think about it that way. We just thought of every search, this individual beautiful snowflake of a search. And some of these roles are just not right. So we were able to put in these systems for these expectations to be like, hey, I need to hire seven front end engineers soon. We now had a repository of these people or people that have gotten back to us.


We could spend telegrammed money on these to push applications so we could work more fluidly and making sure we're having the right talent and they've expanded the productivity. The Team three X when I was there and actually enabled us to grow the source active as well. Another thing we did, which I think is probably unique to us, but again, we kind of we saw this from Google. So I apologize, Sergey. But what they did is they had online saucers, our online application review team sit across the app, the recruiting team.


We're like horizontally before the process. What I mean by that is typically you have a recruiter, they'll have ten rolls and they kind of have these blinders on. Of those ten roles, if someone comes in their bucket for this role, they're not a great fit. Got out of the way. So we've got a team and we kind of this parent child nomenclature we use. So we're all for it. We just have one front end engineering software, Rick in San Francisco.


Online, we might have 30 rolls underneath that have different variances in teams and technology experience, but we just have that all we will end up one person or two people's job. We have a handful of folks just depending on the demand. Look at those. Now they can look across 30 teams and understand the nuance of this person and make sure they're going to the right team. They won't just decline because they don't have visibility and our conversations become a lot more consultative.


So we're not just saying, hey, you going to work on this product? And this is what we need because this is what I'm working on. It's like, well, we had a ton of teams here today. What are you most interested in? Are you looking at this or this technology or you want to have this or is this is like not even monsted and this is super confidential, whatever it might be. And then also strategically on my end, I can look, since we have this data and tableau, these rules actually have enough pipeline of the theory.


Let's just say it's 20. I need you to make sure you are having conversations about these other 10 to make sure we're distributing pipeline across all those roles as evenly as possible. And the hiring manager, the leadership of that team can help me understand where their priorities are. And so I can essentially help dictate where the pipeline goes. Obviously, it has to be aligned with the interest, but we kind of get first rate refusal or highlight those rules.


Think of it as like an echo of like, you know, your search. It's like we'll push the top teams that are needed to the top. By all means, we can't force you there. You so I click on it, but it enables us to distribute that pipeline because we see a lot of times before everyone go to like quote unquote, the sexy team, they close the roll. We have sixteen candidates sold on one roll of Dropbox, not twenty nine other open rolls, and it becomes a lot harder to kind of navigate that.


So we try to keep it agnostic early and having that team enabled us to not only increase as well. You'll get a rejection for us within 48 hours, but enable that we didn't just reject people we still looked at. They could be still be a good fit for Dropbox. So the reason I bring that up is our products are prisoners of that group from a cost standpoint and an efficiency standpoint is the most productive and efficient team that Dropbox. And then the saucers can then use their tool and their business to make sure they're hiring the rules that aren't coming in from those channels.


And that's usually more senior, diverse, hard to find. And but that's where really the business needs it. And those people just aren't applying for whatever reason at this time.


OK, and so people listening to us today might think this is complex, but again, it takes time to build. Dropbox was created in twenty seven, right? Yeah. OK, so it takes a bit of time to build and I assume so you're not a public company. Took some time to build the recruiting team as well. And the acquisition team. Can you tell us about the different steps and the M.S. question. Actually what can you tell us about the different steps?


If you see different types of teams, like when you have ten people in your recruiting team that you shouldn't care about these and these should be your focus and then you can grow to ten to fifty people and then to from fifty two hundred. Or do you see different typical size of recruiting teams and different things. You should do it each size.


Yeah. One hundred percent. I think you know when you're small and you're five, ten people your hair's on fire, you're only a recruiter, you're probably an H.R., you're probably a therapist, you're kind of the you're kind of everything. Right. And so that the time to do those things aren't as prevalent. And I would say passive sourcing is everyone's job, but hopefully, especially if you're exciting, you're getting enough referrals and you're getting people applying.


And then usually those size schemes to you're working with third party companies to help drive some pipeline for you, you know, on a contingency or whatever size field. And that usually helps you within that. I would say, though, if I've never worked for a series or be able to Google and then obviously drop off, which are still small, but at the right time, we had money and investment. As a leader, you have to build for the future to your point.


So what do you want to build early? And I would say if I ever took one of those jobs, I would still have data integrity. I would still have diversity and really important things to help scale. But I tablo in visualization and that stuff doesn't need to come when you're a five, ten person company, you know what I mean? Like, you just need to make sure you're hiring and hiring as fast as possible and you can work off spreadsheets or docs or whatever in the beginning to make sure you are having conversations.


And Green House does has gotten a lot better with some automatic tools that will help you in the early part. But I think you need to be really strategic about naming fields of what field you're looking for. What is your story you're trying to tell in these early years as you get more complex, then I would start layering diversity on start when you're not being able to fill your pipeline enough because referrals are going down or referrals are all non diverse and you have a diversity problem, then, you know, then you start building in like your sourcing function and kind of your your CRM probably.


And then beyond that, then you have your other layers of like a university team as well as like an executive team that probably comes once you grow a little bit beyond that. But early, I think your hair's on fire. You're just trying to get the job done. But I would strategically sit down and paint a picture of what you're going to look like when you're at fifteen hundred people. When you're at three thousand people. I can share for Dropbox for about twenty eight hundred.


We are currently going a full, full review of our recruiting process to your point where a 13 year old company we've added on know lights and levers and fun things onto this recruiting sheet over the last couple of years that I've been here. But we haven't really looked at the whole thing and understood if it's really representative of who we are. Does it take the risks or the bets that we want to make as it is it unbiased in certain areas? We have the pass rates and tinkers that.


But I think when you don't do that and I can speak from my experience at Google as you get down the road and you don't know which of these levers or bells are actually helping you or hurting you, and they're just in there because they've lived there for so long. So I think it's an important exercise, a message. Your point is to constantly have a team to really do this, as you would for any tool you're bringing into your business before you blindly bring in a tool.


You should understand your current tools and make sure there's a gap that it's addressing. Right. And if there's a gap and you pick a partner that you respect, that you work with you and help those with you, because that's just going to serve you well in the long run. But I think you need to understand what you're trying to solve for early. And it's usually just hit numbers. But I think if you're not hitting numbers and this is kind of the message I get to any recruiter last week, your job is to get hires, but that's only probably seventy five percent a job that twenty five percent of jobs understand.


If you're not at least have an idea to where the problem is and what you're going to do, like why? And I think that's the big thing with data that most historic recruiting leaders haven't always just promised the results. And if the world were there was kind of finger pointing or I feel like or I hope that or I don't know, you need to own it and then work with your partners to solve it. So I think I have a vision for what that world is going to be.


But I would imagine the data visualization, the complexity of sourcing, all the rest of that would come as you scale down the road. But I do think it's important for you to think about those early days from the guy who's lived it halfway through and taken where it's at now. It would have been a lot easier to have those things at least addressed or thought of. Maybe not as complex, but I would have been nice to at least have a spreadsheet of what they think you where they'd like to go.


When I took this over and you just got it spent, then I just spent more time looking back. It'd be nice if that look back was already there. Like, I probably won't be a Dropbox or my career. I can promise you, whoever takes this job after me will have a workbook of what we've done and why and where we are thinking. So then they can go to do what they want. I think you got to leave things better than you found them.


So I would encourage those leaders to really think about that and then start scaling as you have money, opportunity and resources and then come accommodator data like, hey, listen, we're only able to hit thirty hours per our team right now. That's it. That's all we can commit to a quarter. So if you want fifty, at least now that you need X amount more resources and these teams, it's going to cost this much and you can run it like a business, just like a sales team.


If you're putting ads out there, you're going to understand what those ads are and spend money accordingly. And if you're not Kanala, you probably wouldn't be spending that money. So I would I would really think about that and scale as needed or where you see deficiencies in every company is different. Some companies are going to have a great referral culture and and our great branding or get good funding and have great partners like ABC funded to help you fund or some aren't.


Right. And so your job is to decide for those things, quantify the good and bad, and then go make a plan, solve it all.


Thanks a lot, Mike. That was rich and I feel a lot of people the cleaning their today did so at least that. Thanks a lot, Mike, and talk to you soon.


Thanks for having me, Robert Goodman. Thanks for listening that book. Until the end. If you're still with us, it's probably that you enjoy the players. Eight players is brought to you by myself and higher suites. Well, building a sourcing automation software. And we already helped nine of the companies hire the best sides.


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