This episode of Add to Cart is brought to you by Makers Mark. You may not know that makers Mark's co founder, Margie Samuels, was a designer and genius behind the original label. It's women's history month, so I'd like to shout out another incredible woman I aspire to. A woman who knows how to let her hair loose and take charge. The one and only Jessica St. Clair, who co hosts the Deep Dive, also here on the Lemonade network. I'm so honored to be a part of a community of strong women and want to pass it on. I got a fun personalized label bottle from Maker's Mark. So cheers to you, Margie. And cheers to you, Jessica. This month, order a free label and let a spirited woman in your life know just how special she is to you. Head to makersmark.com personalize. Maker's Mark makes their bourbon carefully, so please enjoy it that way. Makers Mark Kentucky Straight Bourbon Whiskey 45% alcohol by volume Copyright 2024 Makers Mark Distillery, Inc. Loretto, Kentucky.

Do you ever get hit with a cringy memory of your 13 year old self out of nowhere and suddenly you're panic, sweating, and laughing at the same time? Don't worry, don't worry. We all get that. It's because being an adolescent is one of the most visceral, shared experiences we have as people, and we want to talk about it. Join me, Penn Badgley, and my two friends, Nava and Sophie on podcrushed as we interview celebrity guests about the joys and horrors of being a teenager and how those moments made them who they are today. New episodes of Podcrush are out now, wherever you get your podcasts.

Lemonade.

Oh, so with that fire, boy, you forgot to blink. Wait.

Welcome back to Add to Cart, a show about the things we buy, the things we buy into, and what it says about who we are. I'm your auntie, Kulop Filaisock.

And I'm your other auntie, Su Jin park.

Now, Sue, on our episode with our dear friend Mahondra during the holidays, we talked about some cult documentaries, and I said how jealous I was of people who can 100% commit and believe in something, like a call, for example. Do you remember that?

I sure do. Yeah. That is an ability that we seem to lack. And we just talked to Susan Liu, and we talked about how add on to that that I'm so freaking cheap that I actually am uncult able. Like, truly there is it just the price tag will get me off of that wagon so fast?

Yeah, yeah. So our guest today looks at cult in a different light or in a. In a more deeper light. Can like it deeper. I mean, Starbucks former sponsor Lululemon, by the way. We're still at Lululemon. We'll come crawling back.

What do you.

What do you need from us? You may think you're not in a single cult, but you actually may be in many cults. The cults are calling from inside the house. Okay, so our guest today, she's a writer, and linguistic, she is such a command of the language.

She. I know.

We were just talking about that, quite.

Simply knows so many words.

All the words. All of the words.

I've never said that about anybody because it makes me sound stupid, and I'm not. No, but I said that before we started recording. I said, this person has come more words than anyone I've ever, ever met.

So smart. She's the creator host of the hip.

Podcast sounds like a cult.

She's also the author of three non fiction books. That's one, two, three if you're nasty. Her newest one, the age of magical overthinking, drops. Today, please add to cart Amanda Montel.

Aro. Do our own sound effects. Yeah, I'm so fucking smart.

Listen, I mean, I know you hear that all the time, but it's not just the smart. It's just, like, the words and the words on the page, too, because we did the podcast together, and I was like, wow.

No, I was like, wow. I was like, wow. Because you two. You were. You two are such a dynamic duo. I stand you both so much. That Stanley Cups episode, we'll talk about it, but, like, it is Chef's absolute kiss, and it's going to be out next week. If you're listening to this, the week that it drops, tune into sounds like a cult next week. Because this cult of Stanley Cups episode is so funny. It's so disturbing. I didn't realize we got so far into it, but we did.

Oh, disturbing is our middle name.

That's right. I'm comfortable there. Yeah.

We take normal things and we disturb it.

When you were obviously, every episode, you intro, like, where your aunties. I was thinking, like, I'm your overly chatty Gremlin cousin. I like that know it all, like, annoying as fuck little cousin who's, like, three heads shorter than everyone else in the class who, like, comes in to be like, yeah, light can be deeper. Did you know, according to physics and blah, blah, fuckity blah, like, that's me.

You sound like the little boy in Jerry Maguire.

Oh, yeah. Remember that guy.

That is the human head. That little boy, Jonathan Lipnicki. Is that his name again? Yeah. The human head weighs eight pounds. I swear to God, last night, I was, like, falling asleep on my partner's shoulder as we were watching a cold war documentary, and he was like, can you move your head or, like, rest it lighter? And I was like, the human head only weighs eight pounds. You can handle it. You can.

Oh, my God.

That's incredible. I did. Listen.

I'm married to a person whose head probably weighs three pounds. It's the smallest human head, maybe alive, and that's still too heavy. He puts it on my shoulder, and I'm like, no, no, I have muscle issues. Like, you can't lay that three pounds on my shoulder. So I get it.

This is such an irrelevant statement, but my brother was recently diagnosed with having a blank space in his brain. Wait. Huh? Yeah, but. So my brother is actually the smartest person alive. It's so funny that you're calling me smart, because I am a fucking idiot compared to everyone else in my family. And especially him. Especially him. He is so fucking smart. It's annoying. And very calm, though. Like, he will show up to the airport with no passport, but they'll still let him on the plane. Cause he's so chill. He's that person. I know. He was recently diagnosed with a blank space in his brain, and we're like, that's what that pathological sense of calm is.

God, if we could pay for that.

If we could pay for blank spaces.

I want the whole thing. I want 99% of it to be blank.

Mike's shit is so jam packed with just bullshit.

Nonsense.

Garbage.

Me, too. Garbage. Me, too. Me, too.

We're gonna get into your carts, and the first thing we're adding to your cart, before you even get to your cart, is your new book, the age of magical overthinking. And, I mean, I knew that this book was going to be informative, but it's so funny and at parts so heartbreaking. So it's both of those things. So beautiful. I want you to explain this concept of magical overthinking, because we all know what magical thinking is, but I love that you got this little slice of it that's so unique, right?

So the book was inspired by this dissonance. I kept feeling that despite living in the information age, the world only seems to be making less sense. And as it turns out, cognitive biases are a huge part of this answer. So, cognitive biases are these psychological shortcuts that we take subconsciously naturally, that we've always taken in order to make sense of the world enough to survive it. But these cognitive biases are combining poorly with the information age to cause us to make decisions that make no sense, to feel confused and isolated and frustrated more than we can rationalize ourselves. So while magical thinking all on its own is our tendency to think that our internal feelings and thoughts can affect external events, magical overthinking is what I'm describing as a product of this time when our innate irrationalities and mysticisms are clashing with information overload, mass isolation, and this really capitalistic pressure to know everything under the sun, to have, like, a perfect, cogent, hot take about everything, that sort of, like, combo of clashing factors has caused this magical overthinking phenomenon that continues to live rent free in my head.

Yeah.

It's also, you just described Auntie behavior. I'm like, uh huh. And what's wrong? Yeah, nothing wrong with that.

Well, because the poor, the youth are having auntie behavior.

Yeah, I feel bad. The thing that I read when I was reading the book, I was like, oh, boy, here's add to cart, which I thought was so funny was this whole concept of, like, additive solutions. So, like, even as we're talking about, like, for instance, Stanley cups, right? Like, the solution there is like, just drink more water.

You know what I mean?

Just get a cup, and you just drink more water, and you just stay hydrated. Like, it's not that complicated. But that's not what we do. That's not what we do on the podcast either.

What we do is we look for.

A cup with a giant straw and a. And a giant handle and a ding dong and a ding dong and a doohickey, and this leaks everywhere. And then we go hard.

It's in a fashionable, mutable color that is esthetically pleasing to my. And I. And also my peers have them.

People go wild again. And so I just thought it was so funny that, like, we, rather than simplify or take away, right. To solve a problem, we as humans, for some reason, have this bias to add to solve.

Right. I am so glad that you called that study out of everything in the book, because that is the one that I keep returning to, too. So this is, like, a perfect example of magical overthinking. When we are experiencing a problem, our instinct as human beings, especially growing up in consumerist society, is to add a bunch of fucking variables to the equation when the much simpler and effective solution is so often just to take one little thing away. So the study that I referenced and this was in the context of a chapter about sunk cost fallacy, which I talk about referring to a shitty ass relationship that I was in for a long time that I kept justifying because I couldn't bear the idea that all of these resources that I had poured into this relationship were not going to pan out anyway. In the context of that chapter. I wrote about this study where a bunch of participants were presented with a puzzle that they could solve by either adding or removing colored blocks. The vast majority of participants decided to solve the problem with a very cumbersome solution of adding a whole bunch of colored blocks to the puzzle when the much more effective solution involved just simply taking one colored block away.

But almost nobody did that. It's the subtractive solution. So that related to my relationship. Because I thought during the most miserable points of my freaking toxic ass cult of one relationship with this boyfriend, I thought, you know what? We need to go on another vacation or to get another cat. Lmao. I love all my cats, but they didn't solve my relationship problems. Let me tell you.

It's a lot to put on a cat.

Cats.

It's a lot to put on a cat. It is a lot. And they are capable of so much. But listen, I was like, you know what I need to do? I need to just post a whole bunch of really happy photos of us online that will solve the problem. When so often the problem just involves taking something away. Remove one colored block, break up. So this. I mean, this bias has been so illuminating for me, and it comes up all the time. Just the other day, I was looking at my junk drawer. I was like, what a mess. You know what I need? I need to go to the container store and get a bunch of, like, gorgeous acrylic drawer dividers. That will solve my problem. Welcome to add to cart. Yes, fully. I know. That's literally. Literally.

You're talking about why we sit here every week. This is all we do.

Additive, additive solution, add to cart. So, yeah, I mean, it didn't occur to me until I was literally on the containerstore.com, like, ready to check out that I was falling prey to additive solution bias, and I just needed to throw that shit away.

It's not gonna happen. I mean, it can happen, but that's.

Not gonna happen in my life.

I'm going to go to the container store and buy all the containers. I'm in this thing where, like, we're trying to figure out how to afford to build an adu, like an office. Right.

For me.

Cause I don't have one. Mainly because I need a closet. Like, I don't have a closet in here.

No, to be fair, you don't have your really. To be honest, you don't really have your own space. And a closet is one piece.

Yeah, exactly. I don't have a room. Anyway, today we were just, like, looking at the numbers, scratching our heads, and I had this fleeting thought, which will never. I'll never say to my husband, and we'll just fly right out, which is, we could save a lot of money if I actually edited my closet down and we could get this closet smaller. There's no. I will die on that hill. I'd rather not have it.

Coo.

Forget it. Don't build it.

Forget it.

I'm not taking one thing out.

I know. I am completely with you. I want to move, like, my home that I love so much and have lived in for five years, and, like, everyone's like, your house is so beautiful. I'm like, I know. It's my home. I love it so much. I am desperate to move, like, yesterday because I need a bigger closet. I'm just like, I will give all of this up for a bigger closet.

And that's why we're here.

Yeah.

In each other's carts.

Well, meanwhile, I love.

Got a great closet.

And I have no problem giving things away, editing things. When stuff comes in, I take things out.

And stuff comes in.

Yeah.

And I take things out, and it feels great. I need that balance.

Yes.

Am I having a superior tone? Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's.

I own that, too.

Yeah.

And we don't care.

Maybe you have a blank space. Yeah, maybe. Maybe you have a blank space. It's giving blank space.

It's giving major blank space.

Well, Amanda, how. How do you generally add to cart?

Okay. I am an anxious shopper for sure, because I'm, like, concerned about. Well, I'm not saying this in, like, a super environmentalist type way, but, like, I. I guess I absorbed enough. I guess I've absorbed enough about the slow heat death of the planet that I'm like, I would say this. I canceled my Amazon prime, okay. Because I'm like, what? Yeah. This is not to go first.

This is. I don't think we've ever had a guest without a prime account. Yeah.

There have been people who have said, I'm trying to pull back. There have been people who said, you know, if I have to, I'll do it. But nobody has come. Nobody has been fucking brave to say what to do, what you've done.

You're out there. I don't. Amanda, what is it like out there?

You are. You are the Joan of Arc.

Look, this is what happened. I canceled it and then I got it back, and then I canceled it again. And I canceled it again because on sounds like a cold. I interviewed an ex Amazon employee who really, like, you know, showed me behind the curtain of that place, which is like such a bro y nightmare hellscape of a work environment. As you can imagine at Amazon, apparently there are bros who wear something called a utilikil. Okay? It's literally like a tool belt, but a skirt. And so the culture there is like, utility kill energy. It's like, I am so such a.

Pragmatic and you're like, cancel, cancel Prime.

I know. I'm just like, I can't with the utilikilt culture, I'm canceling Amazon prime. So I guess. And the other thing I learned from that guest was that I am hugely. Oh, my God. Thank you, Keegan, for linking utility kilts in the chat. It's, it's important that everyone see this because they're like $400 and they're just for show. Like, no one needs a utility kilt. It's like the look of an Amazon employee is a utility kill. And one of those five finger shoes, one of those socks with fingers.

It's like what you picture, like a blacksmith having or some.

Yeah, okay, right.

But they're Silicon Valley posers. Like, yeah, they don't work with their hands. So anywho, I canceled it again, but I also learned from this guest that, like, living in a city is such a privilege because you have access to anything that you might need in a storefront. So, like, I can patronize a small business when I need, like, a fucking, I don't know, paper towel roll. I can, like, go get a cute one from the home goods place. But, you know, not everybody can do that. Like, for some people, they live in, like, I don't know, other kinds of places that aren't cities. What are those? Suburbs, suburbs, rural areas. And so, like, Amazon is just like a survival mechanism for them. And so for me, I'm just like, okay, this is like one sacrifice that I can make. And so that's why I did that. But so I'm an anxious consumer. I do try to do the thing where, like, if I acquire something, I have to give something away. I'm like a clothing swap girly. Like, I will host clothing swap brunches. I'm a poshmark girl. I'm like, a thrift store girl consignment.

Love that.

So.

But sometimes when I'm lacking agency in my life, which is often, I will freak the fuck out and buy something very expensive. And sometimes that expensive thing that I'm buying is a tattoo that I put on my body. Yeah. When I'm feeling, like, out of control, sometimes I make bonkers consumerist choices that are, in many cases, permanent.

And we're back. We're back to our show.

We're back. This episode of Add to Cart is brought to you by makers Mark. You may not know that makers Mark co founder Margie Samuels was the designer and genius behind the original label. And now, in honor of women's history month, Makers Mark has partnered with the talented artist Gail Kabaker to hand paint a beautiful label which you can personalize with the name of a spirited woman, you know, someone who makes an impact on you or in their community. In honor of this women's history month, I want to shout out an amazing woman I love and admire. My Leo moon, Capricorn Sun, Scorpio Rising, June Diane Raphael. She hosts the show the deep dive. Also here on the Lemonade network. I'm honored to be a part of a community of strong women and want to pass it on. And as part of this women's month, I got a fun personalized label bottle from Maker's Mark. Cheers to you, Margie, and cheers to you, Junie. And you can join in on the fun this month. Order a free label and let a spirited woman in your life know just how special she is to you. Head to makersmark.com, personalize, fill in the details, and then shout out the woman you know who is making a difference.

Makers Mark makes their bourbon carefully, so please enjoy it that way. Makers Mark, Kentucky Straight bourbon whiskey, 45% alcohol by volume. Copyright 2024 Makers Mark Distillery, Inc. Loretto Kentech.

Hey, Parks and rec fans, Jim O'Hare and Greg Levine here to tell you that Parks and recollection is back.

Yes, we are back, everybody.

It's me, Jim O'Hare.

We are joined by some great friends of the show, like Ben Wyatt himself, Mister Adam Scott.

And I'm Greg Levine, Parks and rec writer. And yes, we're diving right back in where we left off. And there's so much to talk about. Listen to parks and recollection wherever you get your podcast.

Hey, everyone, it's David Duchovny. Do you ever feel like a failure? Trust me, I get it. Hell, I've spent my whole life almost feeling like a failure. It's appropriate, though, because on fail better, my new podcast with Lemonade media, exploring the world of failure, how it holds us back, propels us forward, and ultimately shapes our lives, is the whole point. Each week, I'll chat with artists, athletes, actors, and experts about how our perceived failures have actually been our biggest catalysts for growth, revelation, and even healing. Through these conversations, I hope we can learn how to embrace the opportunity of failure and fail better together. Fail better is out on May 7, wherever you get your podcasts.

Well, let's talk about some game changers we asked you to bring. And one of them is rifle paper company. So you. And you're. You're not even just talking about their paper. You're not even just talking about stationery. You're not talking about pens. What else?

I'm talking about my religion, that is rifle paper company. Listen, so I. Okay, here's, like, something I'm really proud of that I buy. I am a member of the Huntington Gardens. Are you famil? I am famil.

It's gorgeous. I'm beautiful. It's beautiful place in Los Angeles.

The best thing about that place is the fucking gift shop, okay? It's like, in a domed Greenhouse palace. And everything is colorful and fancy. And actually, my two game changers I'm talking about right now, I discovered in that gift shop. Oh. So rifle paper company does make stationery and pens and notebooks and journals and stuff like that, which I love. They have, like, little fucking flowers on them. Like, it's like, oh, God, it's a fairy tale. It's a fairy tale. But I am extra in love with their candles that smell like a natural forest that I will never live in. Oh, and they make, like, silk pajamas that looked like a fucking woodland fairy painted them. Wow.

I had no idea that they did anything other than stationery. Like, they do shoes. Cute shoes. Like, little rain boots with flowers on them. Textiles.

Yeah. I'm fighting the urge to shop right now, Amanda. I gotta tell you, I didn't know this website.

I'm looking at this, scratches an itch for coo.

I'm like, ooh, look at that umbrella.

We live in LA. Like, we don't need an umbrella. But when I see anything patterned with a bunch of little hand drawn rainbow flowers, that's it. I'm like. Something primal takes over. I feel myself losing my bowels, and I buy stuff. Oops. And regret it. But then I don't.

No. And they're like. It's like little things, you know? It can't. It can't hurt anyone. It's covered in flowers.

Oh, I forgot to mention this. I am a tchotchke whore. Like, listen to this. This is crazy because, like, we shop, I think, in. In contemporary society, we shop in part to tell ourselves a story about who we are. We're very, like, identity motivated. And so when I'm surrounded by shit that I feel, like, says something about who I am, I feel comforted because I feel connected to my sense of self. So, like, if someone were to walk into my little office that I'm in right now, would they think I was deranged and unwell?

Yes.

But would they get a sense of my personality?

Yes.

And that's what matters. There is a little tchotchke up on that shelf right there. It's a little adorable, like, figurine of a bicycle, of, like, a beach cruiser bicycle that I bought ten minutes after I rode a bike for the first time in ten years in Amsterdam. I was there last year. I rented a bike. I was so scared. Ten minutes into me overcoming that fear, I was like, I am a bicycle girl. I was like, holy shit. I didn't know this about myself. I had, like, a conversion moment, like an evangelical speaking in tongues. I was like, I need to pull over and buy a bicycle figurine. This is my religious talisman across on the wall, and I will bow down and worship to the sin. I rode a bike for ten minutes.

Have you ridden a bike since?

Are you kidding me?

No.

Why would she need to? She got the figurine. She already said it. Yeah, she's gonna be repetitive. Yeah, like, she's gonna say it again.

It was pretty cool. No, that was like, a wise follow up. But no, I have not ridden a bike since, so shit like that. I mean, I just, like, impulsively. See? Well, tiny things are cute. You know what I mean? Like, tiny little things are cute. And if it's tiny, it's not hurting anyone, so. Oh, my God. I'm looking at, like, I'm looking at a bell right now in the shape of a lemon. And I was like, I'm a bell girl. I'm like a whimsical fairy. I'm a belle girl. I bought that in the freaking amalfi coast. Cause I was like, I am so fucking whimsical. I'm an island girl.

You're a lemon girl.

Okay.

You're a limoncello girl.

Yeah. Oh, and what did I do? I tattooed it on my body as well. She's showing you. I bought the bell a lemon bell.

And then she's showing us a lemon.

Tattoo on her forearm.

A fine line.

What the fuck is wrong with you? What's the gorgeous tattoo? It's just a lemon. Like, relax. But I'm just like. I am a whimsical woodland citrus fairy, and I need everyone to know forever. Forever. I'll be. If I live a long time, I will be ancient with this lemon on my body. And I'll be like, yeah, I'm a legend, girl.

This, I think, goes into your next. Your next item, which is gray pants wick. Tell the people what this is.

Okay. I needed to list this as a game changer because I have been read to filthy for purchasing this item by my partner and everyone who comes to visit, because I show off this object, and I'm like, I. Yeah. Like, I am so brilliant for acquiring this. And everybody's like, you're a fucking idiot. So it is a $150 candlestick that is not real fire, but rather led. And if you pinch the very top of the wick, it will illuminate or deluminate accordingly. So you get to feel like you're a little tuberculosis ridden, nightgown clad housewife in the homesteading country in the 18 hundreds.

Because you're a lemon girl.

You're a lemon girl. You're a lemon girl in the country.

You've ridden your bicycle into town to get the churned butter, and now you're home and you need to look at your canned peaches.

That's right. In the cellar.

This is why I can't go on TikTok, because the tradwives would find me immediately. The algorithm would be like, submit to your man because you love lemons and hand dyed tea towels. And I would be like, yes, I do. God damn it.

Have you done a tradwives episode?

It's coming. It's coming. It's gonna air.

I cannot. I'd love to see what you do with it. I really cannot wait, because what's a trad wife? A traditional wife. There's a movement on TikTok.

Wait, what?

Basically, it's. Yeah. It is this movement on social media where I think in the face of, like, so much technological progress and uncertainty, a lot of women have been like, you know what we need to do, ladies, is we need to go back to traditional gender roles, traditional gender representations, and we need to submit to our men. What? Get into the kitchen. Get back into the kitchen. And our brood.

There's a mother element, too. Yeah, it's very. So, yeah, being very traditional. And that's how we get our femininity back.

That's right. But the esthetic fucks. Like, I am susceptible cottage to a little house on the prairie moment. Yes, the tchotchkes are tchotchkeing. It's irresistible. So I can't be on TikTok, because I will fall into that cult, and I know that about me, so I rest my case.

Now, are you carrying this gray pants wick with a nightgown, or are you just imagining that you're wearing an nightgown while doing it?

Well, she's wearing her rifle paper pajama set covered in may flowers.

That's fucking right. Yes, I do. And, you know, I'm not the most wildernessy girlina alive, so, like, I don't really know my way around a flashlight, but I know my way around this wick. And so when I need to peer into a dark, dank corner, say, to find one of the many cats I acquired during my shitty relationship, say, if they're hiding in the back of the closet, I would never touch a flashlight. But I poke that little led wick into the back of the closet. I'm like, there you are, Theodore. There you are. And it just. It helps me see. Oh, my God. Because also, my favorite way to walk around is to tiptoe in my little slippers like a fucking church mouse from a nursery rhyme. So, like, the vibes in here are fucking nuts. Like, it is Dululu Central.

And your partner is like, can we just turn the lights on? Will you just let us. Can we turn on the overhead lights?

Do you have my home bugged? Because. Yes. He's like, just turn on the light. I'm like, no. Cause I also hate overhead lighting. Did either of you watch better call Saul?

Not all of it.

There's a character in better call Saul that thinks he's allergic to electricity. I have that. My home is dark all the time because not only is it a shady little area that I am desperate to move away from so I can get a bigger closet, but I will not turn on an overhead light. I can't. I, like, feel ill. Only led wicks for me.

Hi, there. It's Julia Louis Dreyfus. You may know me from my podcast called wiser than me, where I talk to older women and get their wisdom from the front lines of life. After season one aired, I was amazed.

By how many people.

Many people told me our show made them look forward to getting older, which is why I'm here to talk about season two of the show. Sally Field, Billie Jean King Beverly Johnson, ina Garten, bonnie Ray, just to name a few. And of course, my 90 year old mom, Judy. All hail old women wiser than me. Season two is out now from Lemonade Media.

People love to pretend that there are simple formulas for living your best life. Now eat this and you won't get sick. Manifest it and everything will work out. But there are some things you can choose and some things you can't. And it's okay that life isn't always getting better. I'm Kate Boaler, and on everything happens, I speak with kind, smart, funny people about life as it really is. Beautiful, terrible, and everything in between. Let's be human together. Everything happens is available wherever you get your podcasts.

Every Wednesday, tune into the deep dive for a hilarious and heartfelt journey with hosts June Diane Raphael and Jessica St. Clair. From navigating the chaos of motherhood and family to exploring the depths of grief and loss, June and Jessica are two best friends who process life together. Discover their secrets to finding joy amidst the madness. Get ready for unfiltered conversations about life, love, and everything in between. June and Jessica believe in the power of connection and the strength that comes from supporting one another. You can listen to the deep dive on Amazon music or wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay, so we asked you to bring, also bring in two cults that you've already talked about on your podcast. We've been teasing a little bit about Sandley cup. So what else should we let people know?

Oh, my God. I mean, it for me was so easy just to write off Stanley cups as this flash in the pan, drop in a bucket like, silly consumerist thing. But I keep thinking back on our discussion of the lore surrounding it, that origin story with the woman whose car caught on fire, and lo and behold, her Stanley cup rose from the ashes and the water inside was so cold. Yes. That in combination with the origin story of, like, the Mormon mom fluencer who was able to pastelify and mom ify this, like, really boring, unremarkable cup to fill a void in our culture that exists among women in particular, I think. And I'm just like this Stanley cup, thick. It's deeper than we think. Will it have legs? Will it stick around? Time will tell. Probably not. You kept joking that, like, Stanley cups were going to be a fucking like way in the rearview mirror by the time the episode drops, which is in, which is literally next week, so we'll fucking see. But it's true that, like, the community and the identity benefits and the lore and the ritual that surrounds Stanley cups are so much more intense than I gave it credit for.

So I was glad to be able to talk through that shit with you ladies.

It was so fun.

It's a little.

I think once we got into the cult of Stanley Cups and like the origin story, you start to see how tradwives is a little adjacent. You start to see how, like, fitness culture and body image is adjacent. So you start to see that right around Stanley cups are all these really deep seated issues and things that we have been thinking about since the dawn of times that you're like, wow. Cause that's the thing about your podcast. And when you talk about cults, when you just. A lot of the cults, it doesn't feel like a cult. But when you. The whole point is that nothing comes from nothing. Like, it always comes from somewhere. And that somewhere is really interesting, so accurate.

Like, there is a deeper, more spiritual, existential route to things that look really frivolous because we are moving away from traditional religion. So where are we going? Consumerist religions, entertainment religions. Like, that's why we're able to do so many topics of this podcast, because cults are everywhere. They're manifesting in so many different ways right now.

Toxic relationships as a cult speak on this fully.

Okay, so this is the episode of the podcast that I felt most called out by, basically, when I was writing my last book, which is about the language of cults from Scientology to Soulcycle, basically arguing that, like, a cult leader is most powerful tool is language. And guess what, girlies? That type of culty language shows up in our everyday life in places we might not think to look. As I was researching that chapter, I realized that so many of cult leaders, most, like classic tools of influence, also show up in one on one dynamics. These cult of one type relationships where, you know, in a cult context, you might call something financial exploitation and love bombing. In a relationship context, you might call that domestic theft and grooming. But, like, so many of these techniques of manipulation are the same, even though it's just a cult of one. And I keep finding myself gravitating toward cult of one relationships where it'll be a romantic partner or a friend who is, like, super charismatic and makes me feel special and makes me feel like we're gonna conquer the world together. And then I end up in a situation that truly, truly resembles a cult.

So we did an episode on the cult of toxic relationships, where our special guest was Dan Savage, the sex and relationships columnist and, like, Og podcaster. And that was so fun. He's like, everyone, you're on tease. He's like, gunkle, he's the best. So I was, like, mind blown by that conversation, and it's an idea that I wanted to explore even more. So, in the new book, I have a chapter in there that we referenced earlier called a toxic relationship is just a cult of one. And it talks about how the sunk cost fallacy really motivated my decision to stay for so many years that I could not justify to myself in this relationship that wasn't serving me. And additive solution bias literally contributed to all of that. And so it's good when I cover something on my cult podcast that makes me feel attacked because I'm like, what is. Again, like, what is the root? What is going on there? And I can explain. Explore that more in future writings, man.

Yeah, explain this sunk cost fallacy. Like, I know what it is, but, like, there may be people that don't really know what that is.

Cause that's like, I put eight years into this relationship. I gave him my 20.

I can't give up now.

It's like, I put so much. It's so. It doesn't make sense. There's no logic in it.

So, like, all these cognitive biases are like a double edged sword. They make no sense because of the culture that we've created. But they once made sense enough. You know, they were resource rational. They were rational enough to help us. So, yes, the sun class fallacy describes our tendency to think that resources already spent on an endeavor justify spending even more. And it's mostly talked about in an economics context. But those resources could be emotional resources, like hope or secrets, you know? And so this informs so many decisions that we make from low stakes ones. Like, I've already watched 100 episodes of the show that I don't even like, but I'm so attached to these characters. Like, I can't give up now. I have to keep watching the show to. I joined this cult ten years ago, and they promised that all these things would come to fruition. They haven't, but I'm just. I just got to double down. I just got to, like, invest more, and surely those promises will come true. And that was this fallacy that I was applying to my own relationship. And I beat myself up for years after I got out for being so irrational.

But then I came across this really fascinating philosophy paper called the suncost fallacy is not really a fallacy at all or something like that by a philosopher whose last name was duty. So it's unfortunate that I have to keep referencing that study because like Elmeo.

Spelled d o o d y. Yeah.

Fully spelled like that. I'm like, when I say it, I have to picture it as being spelled d u t y or else I'll like lose it. But anyway, Ryan doody shout out, he. But he put forth like a very interesting idea, which is like, it is actually not that unreasonable to want to commit to a bet that you made about yourself, even if it ended up being a bad bet, because it is very much in our favor to create a positive impression of our decision making track record so that other people will perceive us as predictable, reliable, someone that they're going to want in their corner. If we are constantly going back on our commitments, we're going to look like loose cannons, you know, like, we're not going to look like people want in their life, on their team, in their workplace. So even though it's not like an excuse for staying in a bad relationship, the sunk cost fallacy, it is an explanation and it does have some rationality to it. You know, like, we're social creatures, we rely on one another, we rely on being in groups. And so if staying in a relationship that's really bad for you on some level makes you appear more attractive to others in your community, it's not that cuckoo bananas to want to stay in it, but at the same time, we end up being really forgiving of people who need to get out of relationships like that, so we don't, we don't need to overthink it that much.

But yeah, that was like such a healing chapter to write for me personally.

Do you think that this tendency, and I'm talking particularly about relationships and what do you guys think? Like, do you think for some reason it is often more of a female quote unquote, problem? Do you know what I mean? I'm just trying to think of all of the terrible relationships I've been in, and I've definitely been the sunk cost falliser, you know, where I'm like, no, I cannot, you know what I mean? I put too much into this, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know.

I've seen it both. I've seen it both, you know?

I've seen it both. I would think not. And something interesting that I found while researching that chapter is that men and women experience emotional abuse in relationships in equal volumes. Like, men are not more likely to commit emotional abuse in relationships. And a vast majority of people, unfortunately, have experienced emotional abuse wherever they fall along the gender spectrum. So I. Yeah, I don't think that women are more likely to fall to the sun cost fallacy. There are biases that I write about in the book that disproportionately affect women, like the halo effect and zero sum bias. And we don't have time to, like, talk about all of those. But I actually think the sunk cost fallacy equally affects everybody, which is validating, I think. Oh, man.

Wow, wow, wow. Can I just throw something out? Have you done a brain scan? How do you know that there isn't a blank space in your head?

I pray to God there's a blank space.

No, it's filled with tchotchkes.

She's the opposite. That's it. That's fucking it.

We don't need the scan. We don't need the scan. You don't need the scan. I don't need the scan. I know I don't have blank spaces.

I posit the scan. It is the size of a perfect lemon. That's what I think, Amanda. A perfect lemon.

Guess what? She committed to that. She committed to that lemon.

Let's hope. Oh, my God. I am dying at the idea of, like, if you're a consumerist freak, your brain scan just is, like, a perfect homunculus style depiction of, like, everything you've been buying and obsessed with. Lmao. Yes. My blank space is filled with lemon bells and bicycle figurines. Kill me now. Jesus. And, like, little spray bottles. Little spray bottles for your succulents. I'm just looking at all my shit. I have, like, a little figurine of, like, a bunny, like a hair. It's, like, very hipster y and Wes Anderson looking. Did I buy that? I think that was $30. I'm an idiot. Amanda, thank you so much for being.

Part of this auntie call today. I 100% picture you now in a nightgown. One hand has your led wick, the other hand has your succulent mister.

And you just shuffle along, shuffling along.

And your cats are tiptoeing.

Tiptoeing. She's tiptoeing because she has typhoid fever or something like that.

Exactly. This is so embarrassing. I love. I love this.

You can find her on Instagram, Amanda Montel, and go listen to. Sounds like a cult. I mean, we had a blast.

So much fun.

Obviously pick up her book, the age of magical overthinking. But she's. This is her third. While you're at it, get the trifecta.

Yeah. The whole set.

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