Welcome to. Smoky L.A., yeah, it's not looking hot out there, it's looking too hot, too little, too. I flew into Burbank and I got off the plane. First of all, they're really tired. And then I got off the plane and it was like they make us walk the tarmac because it's like such a small airport. And it was like you just got everyone started coughing, like the whole plane just filled with smoke. So anyway, I'm glad to be back.

I'm glad since you've been back, this guy hasn't been as orange as a I just take the color out of everything. That's exactly. You make everything a little more blue. It was a little blue yesterday.

So anyway, hi, welcome to our this show featuring our hair accessories today. That's right. I wanted to jump on the cool hair wagon. Yeah.

I went to buy scrunchies and I came out with this cool headband and I walked in and I've never seen that on Old Man before.

It's very 70s and I don't I don't know the generation maybe. I don't know. It feels so I'm not from this country or sixties. Yeah. I, I've never worn had been before but it suits you. Don't wash my hair. So I figured why not. It suits you.

You also like weirdly pairs.

Well with your eyeliner.

I don't know what I'm talking about here but it all it all the puzzle. That's kind of neat. Well I think you look, your hair looks voluminous is help today. You know, here's the thing I brought. I did actually mean to do this on camera. I brought a hat so I could, like, switch out.

And so that's what I was like. I'm too lazy, but it's too long.

It's in my hair, all the hair in my eyes all the time now. So I needed something. Yeah. Give me a little you can see your nice, beautiful face. You see my my weird forehead.

I hear you have things to catch me up.

Well, OK, we have a couple of things to talk about. First of all, we are finally this comes out. We're hearing this a little bit early, but we're finally caught up on close friends on Patrón. And I wanted to say that because I know how bad we've been about keeping up. But now I'm going to have in our calendar a weekly like update our close friends list, Patreon and so on Instagram.

We're being much more intentional and avid about beautiful people have also sent in some really nice suggestions of things we should do, content building on the same. I think I'm doing like, what did you get any good ideas? I got to talk Tuesday since I always told tech talk. So I will they want me to upload like my favorite tech talks on close friends.

That's fun because I don't share my ideas and you can share what you're watching. Oh, that's fine. I'm going to watch. Did go. I have been doing some people said like wine onesies or G.O. updates, which is like so easy to do on Wednesdays, like.

Sure. Malone anyway with wine and beer. But another one was like house update. They're like house things. And so I was like, oh, cool. So I got to show like my on a staircase or like, you know, things, little things like that where I'm like I don't think to post those things. But since we talk about them on the show now, you can see them on Instagram.

Your house is full of old estate and it's still haunted that people object. You can have that. But I don't want to I'm not going to copy. I was going to talk about the ghost in my house. I'll have Chick talk and you can follow Christine for all the way. I could just follow actual demon through my own. OK, also sorry, I have a couple of things to mention here. All very important. So close friends updated.

Um, oh. We're going to release for Patreon a eighty five gift videos because we finally did that and B we're going to release on Patrie on the what should we call it, space camp.

The movie is the only update I space camp. Oh is it. Yeah. I didn't know if we remembered. No. Who could forget when you shoved that piece of content down my throat yesterday.

So yeah. So we, we just to backtrack real quick, so we have posted a lot more gift videos or gift opening videos just because we haven't been together long enough or things got in the way, didn't like get the mail for a long time. We haven't been able to have all of the gifts since quarantine and one spotting three months worth. We got them all yesterday and it felt like we spent all day opening presents, which was like a white Christmas experience was like our birthdays.

One of them, by the way, my hands smell like maple syrup. And I think it's because one person gave us a like a homesick candle, but it was the Canada one. So whoever you are, thank you. But I found out that they use real ingredients. Right, because I think on the way to the apartment for us to open them, it melted in the car a little bit. And when we opened it up, it was like this whole like the smell of maple syrup took over the entire one mailed you a flapjack.

And if you looked at it, maple syrup was like running around.

It was like guys like picked it up and there was like literally liquid maple syrup in the sides of the glass.

So that's how prominent that was. So someone really gave me a glass jar of maple syrup and wax.

So I appreciate that person, gave me a lemon mug and I used it this morning in the new apartment. It's our first mug in the apartment. So it's very exciting. Oh, my gosh.

I arguably my favorite, which I know I probably shouldn't say, but it was hysterical and topical as we got our own cornhusk dolls. That's right. From Jen. It was so perfect. So thank you to.

I think, anyway, a photo of them online on Patreon to watch the rest of us and the other thing that you just mentioned is if you remember way back in March, literally like the day when Seattle was canceled, Seattle was canceled.

People started shutting down everything around the world because we were like, it can't be that bad. We were celebrating Divas birthday that day. So it was like the last real happiness we had before all of the little girls and we through even Space Camp Party.

And we filmed the whole thing. And this whole time, Christine has been editing a video out of all of the footage we got that X was three people's phones for like 12 hours. You'd like this chaos. You had like like thirty six hours get. Yeah. Like dozens of hours of footage and somehow got it down to 40 minutes.

Yeah.

It's now like a feature film, but it is for me and a feature film.

It's like the most insane.

It's like I took absinthe before I watched this and already crazy move and kept glancing over with their hands over their mouth was like, you're psychotic.

Actually I know.

I think I said you're the most brilliant lunatic. I think that's what this brilliant lunatic. And I actually wear that badge proudly. Now, it was a it was the weirdest, but exactly what I expected.

There were like I put like I learned how to do like sports graphics just for this video. Apparently you've got like six different like Barcelona sports packages and editing and soccer and football and cricket.

I was like, I don't know what I'm doing.

It's the wildest thing I've ever seen. And if you would also like to see our experience during space camp, you can also. Yeah.

And also you'll meet Zenon, who's our friend, that we haven't any time to talk about Z on for so long.

That's with an X, by the way, and do eyes with hearts and an awful lot over the O. Zanón is our friend.

At least she loves frappuccino. You'll see she shares falsies. She was faulty. So.

So sue her. You don't know what we're talking about, but if you barely know what we're talking about, if you'd like to please go to Patreon and oh my God, watch space camp fall in love with Xena on as we did. And now and then you'll know what the hell we're talking about. OK, I think that's the last thing.

The only other thing I wanted to say is.

Oh, you missed me. I missed you. Yep, that's it. No. OK, well, I missed you. I did miss you a lot. But I wanted to also mention that this is I'm just very excited for one of my friends. Name's Alex, and he is basically the only reason I survived my job at Disney back in the day.

Oh, Alex. Yeah. Oh, yes.

I know you haven't met him. It was sort of like pre you got it.

And then when he was a filler before I got here. Yeah.

He kind of you kind of stepped in and pushed him off a cliff or I said, Hi, Alex, your time's up.

My turn like a brilliant lunatic.

Anyway, so Alex has a podcast and he's had it for a while and they're approaching their 100th episode. It's called Camp Strange. And I'm like, I'm finally getting back and caught up on my podcast. And I'd been listening to it a while ago, but I'm listening again. They did like a really good episode and like recently and they're approaching their 100th episode. It's called Camp. And it's very it's like the same stuff we talk about, like ghosts and and spooky to crime stuff.

Anyway, he's a good friend of mine and I feel like we recently reconnected a little bit. So I just wanted to do a shout out. Yeah. And congrats, because I remember our 100th episode was chaotic.

Gestur was Lloyd Confetti because that was a big part. It was so chaotic that the people who live in your old house still have.

Yeah. Confetti stands on the floor for sure. Not getting my security deposit back anyway. So that's that's my little update for the day.

I'm sure I'll have more in like two hours when we record the next episode.

But excellent for now. Let's talk about. Sure. Things OK, so.

Well I know cute.

Look, I don't think it's cute. I have dairy complex I think and my my throat is closing, ok.

All right, well, it's getting cooler in Cincinnati, I know, not in L.A., but I don't necessarily wear socks in the summertime. Now I'm finally wearing socks again and thank God we have features. Well, it's a pun features. I they had me at the time.

Yes, they literally did. We were like, hell, yeah. And also, even though it's not cold here, I am still quarantining and I love my house at a nice 50 degrees at all.

That's right. This is true. My features are coming in real hot, but no cold sort of.

OK, just stick with features. That's a better option. Take me out. OK, but no I. OK, here's the thing though, guys. These are such comfy socks they don't like. One of my big things is I usually don't wear socks that are above like ankle socks because I'm always afraid that they're like bunching or they're like they slip down. These just hold on nice and tight to McAfee's and I am loving them.

They make my feet feel like they're getting hugged all the time, very soft, but also like very sturdy, like they don't slip, you know what I mean. But they're still like Jaroff but yeah. Like it's not like they're like too small army. They just fit perfectly. They've just oh it's they've mastered the the sock hug, if you will.

Well, I'll, I'll tell you why.

Because features are engineered to help you achieve your best every day, whether you're working out maybe not really us, but sometimes if you're on the go.

So they have targeted compression that acts like a hug around the arch of your foot and which is literally what you just said. It feels like it. It does. And it keeps the sock in place and prevents it from bunching, slipping, sliding. It's like that each sock has a left and a right. So like they are literally designed to fit your feet perfectly and are so durable and long lasting that they have a lifetime guarantee. So if you're unsatisfied at any point, they will give you a replacement, pair it with no questions.

And trust me, you will you will not want a replacement.

You know, I don't know if this is necessarily what their what their intent is, but I'll tell you, it's been an additional bonus for me is that my feet at the end of the day get so, so sore. I have terrible feet problems. And because I've got this compression with these compression like hugs, I'm just gonna call them hugs.

I, I just feel like I'm getting a nice little massage on my feet, like they're just like being held perfectly and cradled as I lull myself to sleep.

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And I'm wearing one of my many pairs right now.

You frame and I just saw this like two seconds ago, but your eyes are perfectly framed. You got a nice frame, you frame set eyes there.

Yeah. I'm always congruency when I wear my Warby Parker, so I try to wear them as often as possible. I do.

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So my first story, I had not heard of this. I'm very excited about it.

Oh, and oh Trey Songz.

He follows you me to work with me. Bring your neighbor to work day.

OK. Yes, I slept in the apartment last night. I was him for the first time by myself and that's where why drink apartment and I we'd always slept in the living room even though there is like literally a bedroom but two bedrooms. Yeah. So I drag the air mattress into the bedroom and like slept in there and I was so freaked out because there were so many noises, you know, in your new apartment. And it's by the way, empty.

Basically it's just boxes. So there's like so much clanging and like pipes and the people upstairs. And I had to put, like, our armadillo doorstop that someone gave us in Texas, like against the bedroom door in case one broke in. Like, that would stop them, I guess. I don't know. And anyway, so I feel like I woke up every hour from like a clanging so my nerves are fried.

My favorite part of this weekend with Christine is the fact that she stopped by my apartment and asked if she could borrow the company card because she needed snacks at the apartment.

And so then like two hours later, I go to the apartment expecting like some snacks on the counter and then said, I found a Keurig, a bed frame and a forty inch TV.

Oh, they were all business expense. And then we're sitting there and I walk to the door and I'm like, what are you doing? And I was like, Oh, nothing. And I also got some Oreos. And they were just like boxes from everything.

And I was like, oh, I ordered a bucket. If I'm going to be living in this place, I need coffee.

Someone already mailed me a lemon mug. You're right. And I've been sleeping on an air mattress and I'm almost 30. I'm too old for this. That fucking hurts. I needed to order a mattress on Amazon.

So. So sue me. I understand. It was very funny, though, where I was like, didn't you want a snack? You literally walked in there like one box of goldfish and then like a television. And I walked in.

There was like a couch. Shut up. There was a whole fucking television. OK, anyway, so you're good.

So this is this is apparently America's first documented ghost. What I feel like I've covered a topic somewhat like this.

At some point I must have covered like an America's first ghost. Right? Maybe not.

Maybe not. It seems like you would apparently not this time. Not in this way. OK, so this is a story of Nellie Butler. Nellie Butler. I don't think I know that name.

I feel like the name Nellie should come back. That's a cute name. I have a cousin named Nellie. That's Farm Step Cousin. Yeah. And she's she's like, very cute. She embodies that name Nellie.

I don't think I've ever met anyone named Nellie. I have a cousin named Melley like Melanie. Huh. Maybe I guarantee your friends don't call her Melley, but growing up, that's what we call me.

Yeah, I think Nellie my second that's like her full name, I think. Hmm. And anyone else.

OK, what's to stop?

We're just coming up rhymes and I know Billy it's almost there. OK, so this is the first ever documented ghost in America. This was in Franklin, Maine. And Nellie Butler, her parents were David and Joanna Hooper, and this is in the late 18th century.

OK, so there were no ghosts before then?

Apparently.

No, thanks. No, no, I don't know. Maybe so.

OK, that's a fantastic point, because like anyone lived in this country before, you know, someone who was an investigator.

And so I've spoken to a lot of ghosts from the sixteen hundreds.

So you're on the so you're about to do like an exposé on this. Oh. Item on us B.S. calling you out organelle. So OK, this is it says the first documented. So maybe this is just the first one that was written up in papers where the first podcast like ever. So I guess huh. Yeah. I get her point. You know what, that was the most same thing you've ever said. Thank you. I'm really a lunatic.

So Nellie Butler's dad, David, he fought in the American Revolutionary War. And then afterwards he started a business with his wife and they had nine children in nine years. Holy shit.

It's like competing with the Dodgers. This is actually the first documented Dugher case. I forgot first Duggar family. And in 1776, Nellie was born. She was the second oldest daughter, apparently so in 1917. Ninety five, when Nellie was nineteen, she met George Butler, who was a sea captain. His father's name was Moses and trying to get back to him in a little bit. OK, also never met anyone named Moses. I mean, either.

I just maybe haven't met a lot of people who are pretty antisocial, so I might be the problem. So the butlers were one of the first English settlers in the area. Nellie and George ended up getting married and they lived in Franklin. They got pregnant and Nellie had a baby. And unfortunately, her and the baby both died during childbirth.

Oh, so she is buried in the same area in an unmarked grave and in seventeen, eighty five. So there's a little backstory to someone else. So in seventeen ninety five Nellie was nineteen. Mary, George Obama.

Ten years before that there was another girl named Lydia, also a nice name, also a nice Lydia chlamydia. That's right. Why is that so familiar.

And Lydia. So Lydia was born and this is where their stories merge. So when Lydia was fifteen she had a disease that they did not actually outwardly name. So she was sick and she was dying. She was laying in bed and she had her first encounter with Nellie, who had died two years before.

Oh, shit. So, like on her deathbed, she. Yes, he's the ghost of Nellie, just like, hey, we grow, girl.

We're closer than ever fail wise, wise. So while in bed, Lydia was hearing knocking from the cellar. She told her family about it, but they couldn't hear anything. The family went to investigate, but they didn't see anything. And so eventually Lydia's dad, Abner, I'm going to say not a cute name, Abner. I just think of little Abner like the Arnolds, the little pigs like a pig.

I was going to say from a classic novel, but no, like literally from Heron. Is it from Charlotte's Web? Is that the pig?

Also, maybe last time read Charlotte's Web, I was a. Child, you don't read it every weekend like Baby Abner, just the name of all pigs. Is that true? Could be. Could be.

OK, so she heard knocking. Her family didn't believe her. The family didn't see anything in the basement. So Abner, Lydia's dad, made the family pray to make sure that the sounds were not coming from hell. Let's pray that they're from heaven or a prank.

And basically a few days later, the whole family started hearing the knocking and they also start hearing the voice of a woman, OK?

And apparently the first thing that they all heard together was I'm the dead wife of Captain George Butler or Nelly Hooper.

So like, very, very detailed, very well spoken. I officially know everything I need.

Also love that before the name we learn her her understanding as wife of blank.

I also appreciate that if they were to use a Ouija board, those are like two of the things I would have wanted to know ever though.

Yeah, I like it would take forever. We would be way too impatient. We'd get like four letters in and go. That means nothing. Maybe she sensed they'd be impatient or was like, I'm just going to tell you now. I'm just going to yell it from the cellar. So the family found nothing in the cellar again, but they kept hearing the woman's voice throughout the month and eventually they started seeing the figure of a woman wearing a white dress and she was always in the cellar and in the nearby fields.

So that was just where they always found the dead wife of Captain George Butler. Great born Nellie Hooper. Right.

Two months later, she began to talk to them directly, like would approach them herself from the cellar or the field and speak to them that way. Oh, no. She said again, she was Nellie Butler and she'd been dead for a few years. Great introduction. And she said that she was going to their house because remember, these are less like a totally random family. Like, why are they dealing with. Oh, no, she wasn't even her house now.

No, I thought they would, like, moved into her old house. You no.

Was like, you know, George got married and then Nellie died and then elsewhere, like in a couple of towns over Lidia's.

She's like, I guess I like this field in the basement. It's a sharp field.

OK, yeah. So I guess at some point they're like, why did you pick us to never leave?

And how nice of you.

Nellie basically said, well, I know that Lydia and George have been dating.

Oh, what a little. Petty replied, she's really just calling them out. To be fair. That's what I do. If I know is I know it precisely.

If I died and then I start dating someone, I'd definitely go knock on that guy's door and be like, What's up?

She's like, What are you doing? I know. It's like, Oh, look, now I'm going to haunt you. Think I don't see you? Yeah.

Yeah. I'd be like I'm. I know too well what I'm watching you from the cellar. I'm in your cellar permanently, so don't think you're going to be the wife of now.

Makes a lot of sense why she's like by the way, I the wife of blank that makes so much George like you'll know exactly who I am before I even say my name. Oh, my God.

So here's the crazy part. Lydia was fifteen, George was twenty nine. Oh, even back then, apparently that was odd even back then, you know, like something like the age Gupton. Yeah. Like matter like it was when you met him.

I was dating a fucking sophomore in high school.

That sounds like your sister.

Hell yeah. But that's my sister. Yeah. Oh boy.

OK, so basically she said I found out that you're interested in each other or talking to each other or I think the early signs of courtship were there. OK, again, bugger's any way I can shove them in a conversation. I yeah, I know for you I do feel bad for you sometimes your friends. I also feel bad for myself. I don't feel bad enough to do anything to change.

Sometimes I'm talking and I'm like, I feel bad for what's happening right now, but it's not going to stop.

I mean I show up with the literal televisions after I told you I'm going to buy Oreos.

So I think, like where even I'm going to call it, even from the time I literally showed up at your doorstep and said, I need five hundred dollars in cash.

And you just gave it to. I had friends over to and I was like, you had a party I wasn't invited to, wasn't a party.

I had three Nickelodeon co-workers because we had homework to do.

And so we were watching a lot like a party while watching Jaws and too much fun with your homework. I was having so much fun that I walked outside, gave you five hundred dollars.

That's how much fun my party was anyway. Where did I get five hundred dollars. OK, that's besides the point anyway. Let's go. You're my best friend. There's no better be at this point. There's nobody else like trying really hard.

I hope you feel safe in our relationship that you're the only person I thought to go to like fucking Pasadena. That's sort of five hundred dollars. And I was like, OK, you want to watch Jaws? You were like, no, I don't.

I was like, well, you gave me five hundred dollars so I should stick a. I'm going to leave. OK? Oh, gosh. OK, so, yeah, they're dating and there's an age gap. And Abner, Lydia's dad, is not happy about it either. And basically, Nellie lectured Lydia and the family on, quote, the reality of the afterlife and then complained that when she revealed herself to the family originally, I guess Lydia has a brother.

She revealed herself to Lydia's brother. And he apparently was very rude by not speaking to her. What a little jerk, so she held this grudge that she aghost approach someone and then that guy was probably freaked out and didn't talk to her like I'm just going to close my eyes.

Right. Which makes me think, how many ghosts have I pissed off because I didn't interact?

Well, I was just scared. They're like they talk to everybody else on this planet. They're not going to talk to me. I want your Starbucks off the counter.

Well, so I guess for a while she did there was a gap from when she was originally showing up and then she was gone for like a month. And then she came back and started talking to people. So like, no, she's just doing the knocking. And then eventually she started talking. That gap was because she was insulted that the brother Gabriel shot a lot.

And then she came back swing and she started opening her mouth and chatting. OK, so Nellie said that she had greater plans that would require the belief of more people. So let's remember that. And Nellie spoke to Abner, where even Abner said that her voice flitted around the cellar from corner to corner. Now, he wanted to encourage George and Lydia's relationship, like came back the exact opposite of what I would do if I were dating someone.

Yeah, she wanted to encourage George and Lydia's relationship and ordered Abner, Lydia's dad, that it must happen. And it was their, quote, divine mission. Whoa.

OK, this is becoming troubling. Very quickly. Then she said, quote, What God hath joined together. Let no man put asunder.

Yeah. Which is like what you say in a wedding asunder.

SUNDARA That word is going to be at my wedding. No, no.

Why would. No, you're not getting married in the Catholic Church, are you?

Maybe I want to spice things up. OK, so now it's eighteen hundred and Nellie is still in their cellar demanding that Lydia and George take the relationship more seriously.

What's so creepy? And she she said that they need to visit George's father. This gets real Desperate Housewives real quick, because you have to remember a lot of people and none of them are directly related to each other. So like she wants to go to her ex father in law's got it. House with her husband's new girlfriend and her father. So, like, keep George himself out of the picture and everyone else is going to go to the fair.

Do you as a ghost, you're like, OK, let's see what I can conjure up here, see what drama I can watch and create.

That's exactly it. So she said, I guess Abner, because he was so hesitant about allowing Lydia and George to continue talking to each other, Nellie was like, well, let's go to George's dad and see what he has to say. And you guys can, like, negotiate. And so they go to George's father's house and then she says that the two need to get married and then to a verse from Mark Ten, OK, which interestingly, is the section titled Divorced.

Oh, the section the the one section. And Mark Ten is titled Divorce. And it's where Jesus says that the two people that marry the two will become one flesh and almost under it asunder. A word I just learned today. Therefore, what God joined together let no one separate in. Any one who divorces his wife and marries another woman, commits adultery against her.

That was the quote. So it's like, OK, so in a way you're like your husband is. Cheating on you because she's marrying another woman, she died. All right, and if you're a widower, you have to remarry in the Bible.

I'm pretty sure you are divorced or you can't get divorced. Basically, the idea don't do it because then your big cheating bastard. Fascinating. Wild. Yes.

I just want to read the the Bible and treat it like an action packed.

I mean, I feel like certain parts of it and smartie. Just the gist of the revelations. OK, excellent. Yeah. We'll do a little Bible study. We just jaw dropping little changes.

So Abner and Lydia left to go deliver this message of the part from Mark Ten. They were there during a snowstorm and they crossed a river that was frozen. It was a very dangerous travel. And while they were getting to George's dad's house, Lydia began to think about marriage and realized that she wasn't actually that interested in George and didn't want to totally marry him.

She's like, I thought it was fun when no one when it was secret and no one wanted me to do it when I wasn't peer pressured by his dead wife.

And so apparently Nellie could sense her doubts and appeared to Lydia and then apparently made the travel a lot easier for them to get there.

Like to be like, no, no, no. Like on the road. Yeah.

We tried to, like, help it be less taxing of a of a journey like helped like push the car and everything. So it moved faster.

And so weird goes Nellie's very nearly dead set on us dead set. So Abner and Lydia eventually got to Moses, George's dad's house, who was also against the marriage. So Abner and Moses were like, no, neither of us want our children to get married. But Abner said that this was Nellie's like last request from beyond the grave. And even though Moses said, like he wasn't interested, he did wonder, like, why would this random couple why why would this, like, daughter that I haven't even met yet and her father show up and like the worst weather conditions and like make this like wild claim, unless they were serious, I thought whatever, like, oh, yeah, my thought would happen like there was Quddus.

Yeah, well, I could do indeed.

So that being said, he like it kind of opened him up to like, OK, maybe you should take this seriously.

Too easily. Convinced they also decide that to kill two birds with one stone. They're like while we're in this town, let's also go to David Hoopers, Nellie's dad.

Oh.

And they're like, let's just go to everyone's fucking dad and get a bunch of promotion road trip.

So they decided that they're going to buy George. They're like, look, we already talked to your dad. You're also, well, juiciness.

They said they were like inviting everyone to come to their house and see Nellie for themselves and be like, if you come here, Nellie will definitely show up. She wants to shut up in our house. Like she'll definitely be there if you want to go talk to her.

So they invited George's dad, George. They also invited David Hooper, who is Nellie's done. So they invite everyone over. And then David, who's Nellie's dad, Lydia, who is Nellie's ex's ex, and Abner, who's Natalie's ex's ex's dad. They all get in the cellar together. They start talking to Nellie. And basically Nellie's dad was convinced immediately this was his daughter that he was talking.

Oh, really? Well, this is a quote from Nellie's dad. By the request of the Spector sent by two messengers, I went to Abner Slidell's house and by Comverse and by conversing with he obtain such clear and irresistible tokens of her being the spirit of my own daughter, as gave me no less satisfaction than admiration and delight. She gave a reason satisfactory to me why she put me to the trouble of coming here there instead of me coming to my own house.

And then George showed up later that night and said when I was called to talk to this voice, I asked, Who are you? And it answered, I was once your wife.

Oh, well, I like her. So like, if Alison were like, who are you? I'd be like, is me.

What are you talking about, John? Is that I don't know.

You're wasting my energy with that question.

Yeah, I was once OK, how that will go. And then George, keep saying the voice asked me, do you remember what I told you when I was alive? I answered, I do not really know what you mean. The voice said, Do you remember I told you I did not think I should live long with you. I told you that if you were to leave me, I should never wish to change my condition. But if I was to leave you, I cannot blame you if you did.

Why, what, why? First of all, what a lot of words, that's a lot of words and also it doesn't sound I don't think I would have if I understood what was going on. I don't think I'd like it.

So is it bad news? Is that what we're hearing? It sounds like she just always knew she wasn't going to live long, isn't going to be with him for very long. George keeps saying this past between me and my first wife while she was alive and there was no living person with and hearing and but she and myself and I'm sure that this is very long, basically, he's saying that was a conversation.

So she would have only known that, yes. If she were actually they were the only two people in the room when they had that conversation when she was alive. So for this voice to be saying, uh huh, so he's helping a theory here.

But anyway, I think it was Jeff, the talking mongoose this whole goddamn time.

And also, I'm so proud he would he would show up, be like, I'm bored. What can I do? I I'm so proud at this point that every time I read a ghost, I'm like, when is Harry Price good here? Yeah. Yeah. I need him to, like, do some experiments.

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And so Georgias friend also confirmed that George saw Nelly's operation and George's hand actually passed through her. So that's a whole other random person believing Nellie's dad went to George's dad. Oh my God. It's so fucking confusing to confirm that Nellie spoke to him and basically George's dad agreed, like, OK, like I've seen her. I'm convinced, like, you really got this request from her. I'm convinced that she sent you to us if she really means it and has this divine mission that I don't really understand.

But she brought you into my life, then. Yes, I think our children should get married. Yeah.

So I think that this is my son and your daughter should get to go home.

So that being said, he gave his blessing. Abner, Lydia's dad gave his blessing. And so even though neither of them were thrilled, they set a date. And with the news of the marriage, plus the sightings of Abner and Lydia always hanging out with George's family and gossip about a ghost at their house, the tea was hot. Yeah, as long as the folks would say yes, the youths.

And so these were some of the theories going on are these were some of the questions that people in town were asking, they were asking, was this one big ruse by Lydia just to get with George? But then again, Lydia was saying she wasn't really like, OK, but I think I have a theory about that.

What's your theory? My theory is that Lydia was doing pulling this off and then when it got too far, she was like, OK, never mind changing my mind or she's 15. I was like, OK, never mind. I actually changed my mind.

She's like by then her parents were like, oh no, this is real. And she's like, shit, I'm too far deep in this, OK?

Or it was the guy, the creepy third George, who was like, no, my wife, like my wife, she it's her dying wish.

She never would have known that, you know. Yeah. I bet you it's one of these.

So OK, so those two theories, valid theories, I think some people also thought maybe this was witchcraft from Lydia.

They thought like maybe she had conjured the lyrics somehow. Yeah. And they but they said like, well she was before she got here, she was really sick and like miraculously was fine now. So they thought maybe witchcraft was involved.

We found so many stories where teenage girls get bored and then start like throwing their voices and tricking their families. But people could see Lydia like they could see like a woman that looked exactly like her in a white dress you could put your hand through. Hmm. OK. And later, a parent I was going to bring this up later, but apparently many people confirmed that the way that they would see her is when you first walked into a room and she like her walk into the cellar and she was there.

Apparently, she started out really tiny, like a borrower.

Oh, my God. What? And then as time went on, she grew to lifesize.

Maybe it's like a projector thing. Maybe in eighteen hundred, though. Were there projectors?

I mean, probably not. I don't know. Maybe it was a mirror and the light.

Or maybe she's just really small. Maybe she's a borrower. I get it. I don't know. Maybe she's one of those sponges you put in the wall and it grows to 100 dinosaur egg. But yeah. So that was also weird. I was like, that's a new one. I've never heard that before. Little fishy to me. But so some people think it was one of your theories. Some people think it was witchcraft. Some people think Nellie's ghost is just Lydia's voice being thrown.

Some people. Oh, and one of them was so Nelly's sister Sally didn't like at first believe that this was true. Sure. Like, oh, my sister is haunting that space specifically. And so she even kind of spread around the theory that maybe it was supernatural, but it was a demon posing as being like, I think this child should marry this grown adult.

Right.

Well, a lot of people started saying like this, if it's real, it must be demonic. And so that's why apparently later on, Nelly gets more and more religious whenever she talks.

And so people think that that was either the demon trying to prove to everyone that compensating bingo or that it was it was actually Nellie. And she was like, I'm not the work of a demon. Look, I'll say a bunch of Bible shit like that. But either way, it got weirdly more religious as time went on.

Oh, my God. So Sally Nellie's sister went to go visit the house. It's interesting. Like, it's almost like a like a sideshow. Like you have to go to their house.

See, that's the other thing that's fishy to me is like the dad was like, oh, she explained why she couldn't come to our house. Yeah. Like what a lot of if you wanted to talk to her, you had to go to their house.

So Sally Neli sister went to their house and waited for her to grow a little peanut, waited for her little spongy sister just growing up. And Sally said she heard the sound of knocking and then quote, Lydia spoke and a voice answered the sound, which also sounds a little hairy, pricey of like you go into a science room and there's a routine here where someone want to debunk this.

I think it's a really do a voice answered and the sound of what brought fresh to my mind, my sister's own voice in an instant appeared. But I could not understand it at all. It was within the compass of my embrace, and it had been a creature which breathed, but it would have breathed in my face. So she's hearing voices, but and it's close enough to her that she should have felt breath on her. I see. But she's not feeling breath on her.

I passed through the room which led to the cellar and into another room. And there I was much surprised when I plainly understood by the same kind of voice still speaking in the cellar. These words, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness. From this time I cleared Lydia as the voice Bible verse. Well, she said, from this time I cleared Lydia as the voice and accused was the devil because she was like Lydia was with me.

I should have felt breath on me and I didn't. I could still hear the voice in the cellar. It was not Lydia because Lydia was with me and so she assumed I was the devil.

She's like, There's only one answer. It's the devil. At that point I'd be like, Thank God I'm not in the cellar with you. It's not Lydia, it's the devil. So her sister went on to say, like, no, it was the devil. And believe this until Sally herself died, she claimed that the voice sounded so much like Nellie that there's no way it could have been replicated by someone unless it was a demon trying to trick someone.

Because, you know, there's a lot of stories like the sound like someone you love or do you think demons can quote the Bible?

I feel like they're like allergic to it.

That's a good question. I would also maybe if you're, like, powerful enough and like doing it purely with the intent of manipulation. Oh, you're like, you know. Yeah, I get it. Maybe I don't know. I don't want to know. I'm happy. Not now. I want to know some demons get me. So they basically this poor family, if Nellie is real or the devil is real, the family kept living in this house with Nellie talking to them every fucking day.

Apparently she would wear a white dress wearing a cap sometimes and sometimes holding and cradling the body of her dead baby.

So it goes from cute. Not cute. Real quick. Yeah. Oh, sorry. When was it cute?

Just wearing a little cap with a white dress.

And then she's like holding a dead baby, so, yeah, I listen, I wasn't really charmed by this creature so far, but so Nellie would usually appear in the form here it is no bigger than that of a toad and would over time grow to a normal height.

She was apparently for spirit.

She was very polite. And she only ever stayed in the cellar because she didn't want to interrupt their daily living upstairs.

Shit, bullshit. She's like screaming from the cellar. Like, I don't want to bother you, but I'm going to keep talking until someone pays attention. Then I'm going to push your wagon down the street.

It's like I'm not going to go upstairs and bother you, but I will bother you from down here until you come to come to the house with them.

Like to push the wagon there.

Apparently she can leave. She was also on a field at one point.

So, listen, I don't believe this chick for one second. Sometimes Nellie would get bored and she was seen walking around town, but she wouldn't speak to anybody. People just saw her around town. And a woman named Mary Gordon once visited the house to encounter Nellie. And she said at first the apparition was a mere mass of light and then grew into a personal form about as tall as myself. We stood in two ranks, about four or five feet apart.

In between these ranks. She grew into a person or she slowly passed and passed so that any of us could have handled her. When she passed by me, her nearness was that of I can't understand old people talk. It's also so beautiful, but I don't get it. I, I certainly should have felt her, but I didn't. The glow of the apparition had a constant tremulous motion shaking. So they're seeing her. They should be able to feel her.

They can't.

So I am convinced now I have a new theory. I think this is like a distant cousin or someone who came to visit and they're calling this prank. Yeah. Or the mom is pulling in or somebody who wants the kid to marry this weird dude. And I guess so. I mean, there's no way of knowing if you're right or wrong.

Maybe they had a light and they would shine it really strong and she would walk out of there some shit like, I don't know. I'm like, this is. This is a little too physical for my liking, I agree. These people are seeing this apparition. I think it's phony.

Well, so by so anyway, it I don't know what to tell you, man. I don't either.

So Lydia was also routinely telling people if they got near her to Fearnot, which sounds like something on the inside.

If you're saying if you're not, you probably are people already afraid. Afraid. So by the time Lydia and George actually got married, even though she didn't really want to do it, she like stuck it out because obviously he was so fucked up.

So by the time of their wedding, news of Nelly had spread to other towns and people were coming to witness her. And so they would go to the Beadle's house and talk for hours. So it seems, again, like a paid attraction. Yeah. Meanwhile, Lydia wasn't looking forward to marrying George and she actually had plans to run away before the marriage child. It's a literal child.

And the family, I guess they had family in New York. So she was like, ah, not New York, maybe. No, New York. So she had family there. So she thought, OK, well, if I leave before the wedding, I can just go stay with them. And basically, Nellie confronted Lydia and said that you have to do this or her afflictions would sail with her. Oh, creepy. That's pretty nerve racking.

Yeah, that's not good.

So Lydia stayed and married George, and the next day Nellie visited both of them as like a congratulatory.

This is so gross. And basically, like, not even a nice thing to say, showed up and went, oh, now that you're married, I should tell you, Lydia, that you're going to die very soon. What apparently, Lydia, she gave this prophecy of like just like me, you're going to carry a baby full term and both you and the baby will die. What the actual fuck, and then she left. She never talked to anyone for like sixty three days, like over two months, ghosted her little coaster.

Oh, my God.

And this is so fucked up. After those like 60 something days, Nellie came back and the townspeople still wanted to see Nellie. They were like, oh, well, now she's back. We want our turn at this base. The attraction, apparently over one hundred people saw her a different times. And when they came to visit her, they're so there the dad, Abner, would take them to the cellar, blow out a candle, and Nellie would knock.

And then all of a sudden, it seems a very routine. It seems very. Saylor's panel in the wall walk through the panel once we've turned out the lights and you do a signal. All right. So apparently this is when she came back and she was super religious. Everything every response had something to do with God. She would say that she loved Christ. She would sing hymns. She said, I am from above and come on God's message.

She apparently was. She started also doing more prophecies and telling like Abner, Lydia's dad went to him and said, I'm really sorry to tell you this, but your dad is in heaven. And Abner is like, no, he's not. And then found out a week ago he had died.

Oh, no. So she was like correctly prophesies and things. And Abner so that freediving Abner out apparently on August 13th alone, Nellie got like almost 50 people to gather because there was this guy in town named James who didn't believe the Nellie was real. And so she assembled like a 50 person squad to go knock on his door and like she, like, prove that she was real.

So he has a lot of drama in this town.

Like she's got a lot she's building up her own pettiness. Yes. But she didn't even have that many things to worry about when she was alive. I know.

She's like, you're right. She's creating a good afterlife reality show for herself.

So basically, once she appeared at the house, Nellie, like from this James guy, she got to his house with the group of fifty people and commanded them to march back to the farmhouse. They were just doing a protest, essentially walking to James's house and coming back to her house. So, again, like one hundred people marched with her from four different towns to prove that she existed throughout all of this strangeness, Lydia and George did get pregnant well and childbirth was very difficult.

And Lydia nor the baby survived, just like Nelly said. What happened?

Just like honestly. So just the most disturbing part is that there's this child who, like, I don't want to marry this grown man and then she's pregnant, like she's forced to marry this man and now she's pregnant and then died.

And then her and her baby were buried next to Nelly.

I mean, what is going on? Maybe it's this husband guy. I don't know. I don't trust him for a goddamn second, so. Also, if he's innocent, if. I do feel bad he has two wives and two babies murdering them. I mean, what just trying to figure here. There's no right or wrong answer at this point. I think they're all wrong answers because I don't like any of it. So George Butler went on to remarry a third time, got a woman named Mary and she had four children.

And Nellie apparently only appeared one more time to a guy named Abraham Cummings. OK, but Abraham apparently said he was unimpressed with his experience with her.

Honest Abe. So the reboot just wasn't good.

So when he returned later, Abe, he did have he was very intrigued and had collected all of these testimonies and then he published them and a collection of letters. So he was like, I wasn't impressed because everyone who was impressed. Man And in six, he was alerted by two men that Nellie had been seen outside of his house. Oh, so she was keeping tabs on him, apparently. But this is what he wrote about the experience, looking out towards the distance from the house I saw there as I accidentally looked in the same hour I saw there one of the white rocks.

This confirmed my opinion of the specter. I paid no more attention to it. Three months after I asked, I looked in the same direction and the rock was gone. So like, whatever that doesn't does not convince me of anything.

And then apparently he also did see a woman and address at one point appear in front of him. He said that he'd heard her voice before. She said that he'd gone out to see her one of the times when he caught her, but then she vanished before him. Still unimpressed, apparently. But he published all this and the eighteen twenty six pamphlet called Immortality proved by testimony of Sense. Sure, Casey wanted to go read that classic and that was really it.

So people don't know if she was genuinely trying to give George happiness.

No, she was real. She showed up and said, by the way, you're going to die for her.

If she was a total ruse made up by someone, I think that was the last we heard a demon or demon or but the last time we heard of her at all was when Abraham Cummings wrote this like pamphlet of letters. And he was like, I saw her a couple of times, but she vanished and it wasn't really that special. But we never got answers so fishy, maybe if it was a ruse done by Lydia and then she died. True.

But also how would she have predicted for herself that she and her baby were going to die before she was even pregnant? Mm. Hmm, I don't know. Or maybe she set, you know, maybe it was easy to assume you become pregnant if you were going to marry. Well, I mean, yeah, and there was no birth control. And you're 15. You have no say in the matter. And you're right.

I guess she is assumed, like, I'll probably be pregnant soon and maybe people twisted it like, no, she totally predicted it.

It's one of those like, quote, unsolved mysteries because I have no fucking clue what happened.

Like who somebody is. Something's off. I can't tell who's.

Also, there's never been any other ghosts like Nelly where like anyone could just go see Nelly at any time, talk to her face to face for hours about anything that hasn't been debunked or that hasn't been like part of some spiritualities.

Sounds like baloney parlor trick.

Swier like to blow out the candle and then you wait for everyone to be quiet and you knock on the door and then she talks to you.

And then weirdly, one of the people in the room happens to be gone for some reason and then comes back with a wig on.

Then Harry presses there and then Harry Price, he should have been there. And Matty wasn't Imadi, wasn't it? Because he would have fixed that.

Billy flies to the mongoose, but he doesn't fly to the lady in the dress and the field.

This one at least had some like, quote, evidence to it. She's pushing wagons around. So anyway, I think since people saw her in town and stuff, that it was like somebody from out of town that had a very distinct look or something and people were like, no, that's I no, I don't know.

But I'm sorry that was so long. But that's the story, the unfinished story of Nellie Bilaal. OK, well, I mean, I'm just going to jump right into mine because mine is also long. And it's it's a lot it's it's kind of like hopefully it's not as dramatic.

I feel bad. That half my story was me trying to continually remind people how everyone was related to each other.

No, that's literally what my story is. And oh, my two family trees you get to learn.

My fear was that this would be too convoluted, like, oh, great.

Well, I've clearly given you something to compete with that can you said the first time I went, well, thank God it's not just me, because I hope no one started today with a headache and thought, wow, the new episode of And That's Why We Drink is really going to solve all my fuel.

Not that we would get rid of your headache. You have another thing. You clearly don't understand the show. Yeah, OK, so this is the story of the Ketti cabin murders.

Great Ketti cabin. Yeah.

And he sounds pretty funny. No, no. OK, so this takes place in Ketti, California, which is in Northern California.

So in 1980, Sue Sharp who's a thirty six year. So remember these names because there's just a lot of people.

Well we just had to go through like a round of Degrassi with my, with my story so we're like Degrassi plus all there. Let me get my shoes off. Let me get all comfy. Oh boy. OK, ok. No fish for today. No fish flaps. No no no. This was a serious starter. Thank God.

OK, so Sue Sharp, she's a thirty six year old mother of five living in Connecticut and she is stuck in an abusive marriage. She has five kids with her husband. The kids are Johnny Sheila. So. OK, sorry. Johnny's fifteen. Sheila's fourteen. Tina who's twelve. Rick is ten and Greg is five. So basically she has two daughters and three sons, five kids all ten years apart. All they all like total ten. Ten years.

Yeah. Yeah. OK with all ten years apart.

Well ten years apart she's had one every decade so she's in this marriage. It's unhealthy, unhappy. So in nineteen eighty she takes her five kids and leaves her husband. She's in Connecticut, she travels all the way to Keddie, California, which is her brother lives in nearby Quincy, which is in Northern California. It's so Kitty's a small town.

It's has a population of less than one hundred people and a very small, quaint cabin, an under other circumstances other be my new favorite, extremely other circumstance.

I love I love a quaint nature. There's no story.

No, none of those hundred people have talked to me before. Oh, really?

OK, so anyway, so she picks Catty California because her husband or her sorry, her brother lives nearby in Quincy and it's a very small town since a community less than hundred people, yada, yada, she wants to start fresh. So she moves her five kids. They move in and basically they immediately fit in like they're making friends. The kids have friends. They play in all the different cabins. It's working out well, it's working out well.

And they live in cabin twenty eight oh, cabin twenty eight. So this is an Plumas County, California.

If anyone has any grasp on where that is.

Me, me neither. So at the center of Ketti was Ketti Resort and it's these three rustic cabins that could be rented out long term. So like long term rentals and it was about one hundred and seventy dollars a month. So she and the five kids rented cabin twenty eight.

So they tended to keep to themselves. But the kids went to local school and had friends in the basically in the forest like it's in the woods and there's all these cabins.

So they would run to each other's houses and play. So here we go around seven a.m. on the morning of Sunday, April 12th, 1981, for. 18 year old Sheila Sharp, so she's the oldest daughter, was at a sleepover at her friend's cabin across the road, the Cebull family home. Meanwhile, 15 year old John and he has a friend named Dana, who's another boy. He's 17 years old. And the two of them hitchhike to Quincy for a party and return that night.

So, OK, Sheila, the oldest daughter, is at her friend's house and Johnny is gone. Johnny and Dana are at a party. And then they hitchhike to the party and then home that night. Gotcha. So, Sheila, the next morning finishes her sleepover, walks home, opens the door and is met with a horrific sight.

The cabin is full of bodies, tied together, covered in blood.

She sees a hammer and a bent knife and she just fuckin runs. Good. Yeah. Good girl. She's like, I don't know if anyone's there.

She's like, I don't want to know. She said she didn't even know, like, register who was there or who.

She just fucking bolted.

So she runs back to her friend, the Siebold house, her friend's house. She says, I remember dropping my stuff, running back next door, screaming so the seaboards call the police and send their older son Jamie to the cabin to know they're like, not even sure if this killer, even the parents themselves were like, our oldest can check it out.

Yeah. And like, we're busy calling the sheriff. You go check. Yeah. Like, they don't even know if there's a murderer in in the house. Yeah. Yeah. So they send the oldest to check it out and he goes over there, Jamie, and he kind of creeps around quietly to get a look at what's going on. And he sees a back window and he glanced in the back window and he notices that the younger boys are in their bedroom, they're in their beds, fast asleep and they're alive.

Oh, shit. Yeah, OK, well, that's kind of good. Yeah. So ten year old Rick and five year old Greg, and then they had a friend over named Justin who's 12.

They were all still alive and they were sleeping.

I got to imagine if you were Justin's parents, you're like you're never going to sleep over again. Well, Justin, parents come into this whole story. Oh, no, but yes, OK, OK.

Because you're like, yeah, go to your friend's house for the night.

And then it's like, well, this is what happened that terrifies me when my own kids going to sleep so seriously, I'm like, oh my gosh, please, please don't let there be a mass murder happen.

Yeah, I'm going to be there. And he's like, I'm going to do a quick background check real quick. Oh, my God, everybody.

OK, so it did it up. The kids are alive. So Jamie and Sheila Sheilas, the sister, open the window and help out the kids so they don't have to see what happened in the front of the house. They help kind of pull them out of the window. Sure. Pretty soon the sheriff arrives and Sue Sharp's brother, Don, so sues the mom. So her brother Don, who lives in Quincy, comes as well. So the sheriff and Don arrive and Donna has to identify the bodies.

Yikes. So according to Sheila, it took her Uncle Don a couple of times to determine that it was definitely the bodies of 15 year old Johnny, his friend Dana, who had been together at the party, whose age 17, and his sister, the kid's mother, Sue, who had been murdered. So the three of them are the victims. Sue was found nude from the waist down, but showed no signs of sexual assault of Sheila's brother.

And his friend Dana were found bound with electrical cord and wire gagged and had been brutally tortured for a long period of time. Oh, fuck.

So in the room. So in the room it's covered in blood, literally. Floor walls and ceiling covered in blood. The investigation team finds a bent steak knife, a bloody butcher knife and a claw hammer. And because of the marks of the blood, police believe the victims had been moved and rearranged after they were murdered. So they had been put together and tied up. They noted the room hadn't been ransacked. Nothing had been stolen. So it seemed like a personal was just an attack.

Right, rather than a burglary. So, again, this is like a tiny house down. There are fewer than 100 people in this town. And like this lady and her five kids show up and within a year, there's just like a brutal. Right. Multiple murder in one of the cabins of kids, too. So it's just like obviously rocks this town after a few hours to kind of allow the survivors to, like, readjust. Justin, who's the friend that came for the sleepover.

So Justin, his name is Justin Smart.

And not to be confused with Sharp, which is so that's like it's a little confusing adjectives. Yeah. Yes. Two good adjectives. Yeah. Yeah. So Justin is taken for an interview by Sheriff Thomas inside his patrol car. In the interview, Justin remembers continuously saying to Sheriff Thomas, where's Tina Tinas missing?

Oh, no, I totally forgot the other kids. So did everybody else. OK, so apparently the sheriff did not acknowledge him on this statement.

Great. Tina Sharp was a twelve year old daughter and she had been at the seaboards watching movies with Shela the night before. And was wanted to stay over, but Sheila and her friend told her it's just going to be a sleepover for the older girls, so you have to leave and go home. Hmm. So you know how kids are like, no, you can't hang out with us like a younger sibling. So Tina wanted to hang out with her older sister and her older sister made her go home.

And then my older sister walked home, saw this, and now her sister is missing. Right. So. She had head headed back to the cabin around nine thirty pm because her older sister was like, you can't play with us. So it took Justin's mom, Marilyn Smart, to interrupt Sheriff Thomas to say, will you be quiet for a moment and listen to what this boy is telling you? He's telling you that Tina is missing for them to finally be like, wait.

Oh, yeah. So basically, so far there are three murders, Sue Sharp, the mother, John Sharp, the son, and Dana Wingate, who's the friend of the son. Right. Then there's one child missing, the daughter, Tina Sharp. And the three boys who survived are Rick and Greg, the sons, and Justin, their friend and neighbor. And so now with the knowledge of that, Tina is missing. Also, the FBI are called to the scene.

But now it's been several hours. They've lost like hours of time because nobody jumped on this fact that Tina was missing. So the police collected evidence throughout the house, anything that might have a connection to the homicides, including the hammer knife, the steak knife, the hammer. I said that hammer the knife and the bent steak knife, which they deduced had been bent in the torture.

Yeah, that was assumed in my mind. It really, really, really does feel it.

And they noted that the only thing missing from the house was a shoe box that Tina had been using for a school project. OK, strange. So according to one of my fav websites, all that's interesting, the cabins telephone had been left off the hook and all of the lights had been shut off and the drapes had all been closed.

The home didn't show any signs of forced entry, but detectives did recover an unidentified fingerprint from a handrail on the back stairs. But this was pre DNA testing, so even though they could check fingerprints, they could check DNA in the blood. There were panels taken off the walls because they had blood on them. And then a former FBI agent named Larry Ott recalled that, quote, The most strange thing for him was that the walls had knife marks in them, like someone had been throwing a knife trying to stick it in the wall.

It's all very gruesome, just horrible.

So they went through all of Sue's exes because, you know, looking at the husband first. So. Right. Jim was a guy she had just left in Connecticut who had apparently also allegedly sexually abused Sheila and Tina, his daughters. Oh, so. But he was on the other side of the country still in Connecticut, like there was no way he could have been involved. So they had him off the hook for now. And they're focusing on Tenex.

They're like, well, most importantly, we need to get her back. So they narrowed in on one of her teachers, a guy named Joel Lipsey, who apparently had a fixation on her. Yeah, yeah. He had a picture of her on his desk and at his house that he knew kept and like nobody fucking did anything. They were like, oh, he's just kind of creepy. It's like, this is how these things happen. OK, so people around town said he was obsessed with her, but he had an alibi, but fun fact.

He quickly left town and was later arrested in his new town for molesting a young girl. So, wow, shocker. OK, so now they're thinking maybe Tina wasn't the target, even though she's missing. Sheila herself even said she thinks her mom was the intended target and maybe the kids were just in the way and had witnessed something. And so they were murdered. Right. So a neighbor had reported they had heard a muffled scream around one 30 a.m., but went back to sleep because they weren't sure where it was coming from.

And then one thing he wonders if the neighbor heard the scream, why are the three boys asleep? And didn't hear anything and not right. So it's just a little strange to me, huh? I hadn't even thought of having process. You know, there were screaming, Yeah, that's awful. But yeah.

And like, they were being bought. Knives were being thrown into the wall. Bodies are being dragged around like you'd think one of the three would have heard something.

So then my theory, did the kids leave it?

All the kids were definitely there the whole time they got home that night and nothing was amiss when they got home. So it happened after they got home. And they weren't drugged to fall asleep or anything, and, oh, and they want the two kids were five and 10, so they were like, oh, sorry, no, the ones we're missing who had been gone came home and then murdered. Right. Right. The the youngest ones, five, 10 and 12 were all asleep the whole time.

Yeah, that's weird, right? I thought so. So now they're focusing on the kids who are alive. So Justin Smart, the friend. Yes.

Maybe the killer, like gagged them first or like threatened them and said, like, you don't want to wake up your kids because then I'll do something to them.

Good point. So they're like, we know there's kids in the other room to save them, made them stay quiet while they were getting tortured, which I find impossible. Yeah, that's a very good point. I don't know.

I mean, I'm trying to think like your killer. It's true.

My only thought then would be like, what about like the bean knives, like being thrown?

I feel like if you're torturing people to a point where the knives are banned. Yeah. Like there's no keeping quiet even if you want to. Yeah. You think I don't know anyway, but yeah, that's a good point. Like maybe they threaten them into silence. That's true.

And so now they're talking to the kids and Justin, the friend who stayed over, says he has something he thinks could help.

Let's hear it. Justin says he keeps having dreams that mirror the attack. OK, so now the sheriff's department decides they're going to learn how to do hypnosis because they go to different training sessions to learn how to do it. Couldn't they just bring in a hypnosis?

No, I guess not. And it's just. Wow, I'm so sorry. OK, well, yeah, but so maybe you need a course. Maybe just how do you have I.

OK, so they do hit hypnosis with Justin and this is a month after the murder, which by the way, like they should have fucking. Really interviewed him, whatever, it doesn't matter earlier, but yeah, according to Sheriff Thomas, quote, under hypnosis, he didn't actually say that he had saw anything but described watching the Love Boat and then in detail talked about a fight and talked about Sue. And at the end, Sue was thrown overboard.

So this makes me wonder if he's projecting if he had seen something or heard something. And he's. This memory is playing out as like projected on to like a TV show that is framing it in a way that his own brain process as like a child, right? That's what I was thinking, especially when he says he keeps having dreams and needs to tell somebody about it. Yeah. Also, Justin was able to indicate body placements, which were very close to being correct, if not fully correct.

And descriptions of the attacks, including a yellow blanket that was covering Soos chest. And remember, he had been pulled out of the window so he didn't see presumably hadn't seen anything.

So he unless maybe he saw something that night, it was so traumatic. He was like, I I need to go to sleep.

Right. Like, I'm going to this is not real. Yeah. So basically, he knew about this yellow blanket, which just like how would you know that and how would you know where the bodies were placed.

This is sometimes how nosy neighbors are important. Yes, true.

Maybe we should send our kids to sleepovers in case they need to be witness to a murder. You know, you never know. So according to crime and investigation, quote, Under hypnosis, Justin recalled his dream. He described two men in the home. One had a mustache and long hair while the other had shorter hair and was clean shaven. Justin recalled that one of the men had a pocket knife in his right hand, which he used to cut through in the chest.

In his dream, the same man had a hammer.

In the other hand, in another hypnosis session, Justin described Tina waking up and walking into the living room to see what was going on. Oh, no, according to Justin, man then snatched Tina up in his arms and carried her through the kitchen and out to the back steps. Moments later, the man then returned on his own, so. Now, either the thoughts are he did observe this and had as a defense mechanism, his brain had like repressed the memory or shut it out or told him, like, you're dreaming, go back to sleep.

Yes, exactly.

And like, turned it into, like, not reality. Or was he just hearing what everyone was saying about the case. Right. Had created kind of like a narrative that he knew he was missing. He knew that this was probably two men or multiple people.

I'm going to go with the first one, the first the repressed memory. Yeah. I mean, it makes sense with the blanket and everything. And again, but it was also a month later. So it's like I'm sure he's heard a lot of rumors. I'm sure he has had to be grappling with this the whole time. So who knows how much of it is like real or how much it is in his head.

So in any case, under hypnosis, he had described the men he had seen as wearing jeans and denim jackets and gold framed sunglasses. So then they created these sketches that police released for identification. I'm going to show you the sketches, actually. Here you go.

I have them here. I mean, it's like old timey from the 80s.

Oh, OK.

So if this wasn't like a really serious crime report, they look like cartoons. They do look like cartoons. They look like outlines of The Simpsons. Yes, they do. They look like cartoon characters. So interestingly, Justin's mother saw these and goes, I know who those people are. Falkoff, it's a Simpsons character was going, oh, just get Ned Flanders.

It's Love Vote characters. He's really there.

No, she said she knows who it is. It's her husband. Oh, Martin Smart. He's a Vietnam vet and Justin's stepfather. And the other guy is John Beau Bourbonnais. So his name is Beau. So Martin and Beau and Beau's a family friend who was living with them at the time, and they had met at the VA hospital in Reno.

Also shout out to her for like like ratting out her hubby, being like, hey, I know.

I know they're in my living room right now. Right. So but then part of the question then becomes, will wouldn't Justin have been like it was my dad and he was too hard for him to process? Yeah, that's the other thing, too.

We've heard I feel like that's happened with kids where they're like, no, it wasn't like, you know, your brown is. But again, if he's explaining it away is a dream in my head, I would be like, Oh, and I know it was a dream because like I watched my own dad doing like, I know that's not true. Yeah, true.

You know, you'd think that would play a part like if you saw your step dad, maybe also maybe he didn't pay attention to who the people actually were because he was paying attention to the bloody people.

And if you write, you're not like assuming your dad would be in your step dad is your brain wouldn't even go there. You'd be like there were these two men. Yeah. Your brain wouldn't be like, I wonder if I know them like, yeah, I don't know. And also my sunglasses at night and like disguises.

All right. Yeah. They could have done the stockings on the face thing or something he said because he drew their face.

Yeah. Huh. It's kind of weird also I wonder like. So does that mean. Maybe he didn't get a good look at them, because if he had them when his own stepfather, if it were him, go to him later and be like, you can't tell anyone what you saw. They didn't see each other. Well, OK, you'll see you'll see more sorrow, no doubt. That's like, remember that? OK, so Martin and Bo had met while they were in the psych unit at the VA hospital in Reno.

So. Marilyn, Justin's mom, is like, that's my husband and his friend. Other locals also saw the sketches and went, Oh, that looks a lot like Martin and Bo. And apparently if you put the top half of one face with the bottom half of the other face, they were like, really spot on, really. So part of me thinks maybe he just kind of disassociated with what he had seen and like, didn't his brain didn't want to connect it.

Right. But here's a picture, I'm pretty sure of a picture here. So this is when the faces are like blind. And then here's a picture of.

Martin, which again, it's hard to see, but he does kind of have that skinny face also. Yeah, in a town of literally less than one hundred people like you better expect everyone knows who everyone is. Wow. So anyway, so a lot of people are like, yeah, that looks exactly like them. As I was mentioned earlier, Martin and the Smart family lived nearby. They were the neighbors of Kevin twenty eight. And on the night of the homicides, Marilyn, the wife, who was like, that's my husband.

Recalled, Martin, and Bo had gone to a hotel bar wearing, according to the Plumas News, three piece suits and sunglasses. Now, the description that. Justin, Gabe was that they were in jeans and T-shirts, but again, they could have changed, but they were wearing sunglasses in his description at night, so that's still weird. They were wearing sunglasses. And then you wonder why on earth or are they wearing a three piece suit to the local bar?

And people have theorized maybe Malaby like we wouldn't they wanted to be seen or that they wanted to be remembered that people like, yeah, we saw them. They were being real weird in their suits or like we we remember them not wearing gorilla.

We remember them wearing something so different from denim that, like, you would never believe it. Yeah, that's a good point.

It also it makes sense if that's why maybe there wasn't like a I forget what the phrase is, but like there wasn't like a broken entry or anything in the house. All right. If you just saw like, oh, my next door neighbor knows. But the guy who has this kid is his kid. I'm watching him. He wants to come and talk to his kid totally. It's like that would make sense why there was and. Yes. Why they didn't have to break in.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. That's a good point. So before going out, apparently Martin wanted his wife, Marilyn, to go to Cabin 28 to see if Sue would go to the bar with them, because Martin's friend Beau kind of had a crush on her and was like, I want her to join us. Marilyn was like, Sue's not going to come. She doesn't drink. She's not going to want to go. But her husband, Martin, insisted that Beau wants her to go.

So Marilyn went on to ask Sue and apparently Sue refused. And apparently Martin and especially Beau got very upset by this rejection. And apparently she had there was allegedly she had said also that she was not interested in him, like she was kind of like grossed out or like, no, wasn't the vibe wasn't it wasn't happening for her. They weren't violent. They were vibin, according to her. So apparently this pissed beau off. And Martin. So they went to drink.

So apparently the co-owner of the bar said they left after a few hours when the music changed from country to rock, and they were very disappointed.

So that's what people remember from that night. Allegedly that night, Marilyn went to bed early while Bo and Martin were still at the bar. She does remember waking up around 2:00 a.m. after hearing noises from another room in the house and saw a glimpse of them burning something in the stove, although Martin told her it was just a lock. OK, the day after the homicide, Martin spontaneously drove to Reno around five or six p.m., allegedly, quote, high on something, according to his friend Glenna Meeks, and he kept saying, I got to go to Ketti, I got to go to Ketti to watch.

Gleno responded, Marty, you don't need to go to Keddie. Someone is out there killing people. By this point, Martin was walking up and down the room saying, but I need to go. There's something I started that has to be finished. Uh, yeah.

So at around 9:00 pm, Glena finally persuaded him, like, you're not driving back there. Sleepier. And he stayed there until 4:00 a.m. and went back home. So he basically left town, had a meltdown and then drove back the next morning. Strange.

So the police conducted a thorough search of the Smart residence. They found plenty of knives, but Marty was a chef. So it wasn't, like, weird that he would own a steak knife. Apparently, one of the knives was missing. But again, that doesn't prove anything. But it's still a sign. They also found duct tape, a hangman's noose and Hustler magazine, which, again, doesn't really prove anything but interesting.

They then searched a shack nearby where the kids sometimes played like an abandoned shack. OK, fun.

Maryland joined the search and noticed some floorboards had been torn up that weren't torn up before. And she asked the kids if they had done it and they said they didn't do it. So somebody had torn up these floorboards and it wasn't the kids. The police then interviewed both Marty and Bo in great detail. The sheriff claims, but he interviewed them at the same time. OK, you don't do that because everyone said yes, because then they can fucking play off each other and create their own story, you need to separate people who are suspect, right.

Make sure they you know.

So anyway, the sheriff is like, oh, no, we interviewed them in great detail. He was convinced they weren't involved. Is what the sheriff says, the guy who also wasn't listening to the child saying there's a missing kid. Thank you. Yes. And who interviewed him in his patrol car, the guy who also tried to become a hypnotist, not tried to become.

He did. Did you know what? Love both of them. A new script out of that.

You got to love the screenplay of that.

I got a spec or good script out of that hypnosis session. So around two days after the homicides, Justin, the friend and his brother were playing on the floor and Marilyn overheard Justin saying, no, Casey, you have to do it this way. She glanced in and saw that Justin was instructing Casey on how to fake stab him with Justin, then defending himself from the stabbing action. Justin went on to say, I have to protect Sue. I have to protect Sue.

Oh, no. Yeah, and he's 12.

And so at this point, Martin, his stepdad saw what was going on, grabbed Justin and yelled, You will never talk about this again, ever.

OK, so go back to the stepdad guilty knowing that the kid knows something.

Yeah. And interesting that the kid wasn't touched. I mean, like, yeah, there's a reason they left the kids be in the other room. Right. So Martin then took Justin outside, but Marilyn doesn't know what he said or what was done. But before this incident, Justin was able to describe the crime scene so clearly as if he had walked in there after the fact or as if he could have been standing in the hall next to the doorway and seen it all.

So there was a spot to where he could have been standing in, like they wouldn't have necessarily noticed he was there. So after Martin had threatened Justin, he seemed to have forgotten everything, never brought it up again. So this is just bad science, bad news bears. And this is despite the fact that the police had taken Justin's tennis shoes and reported there was evidence that he had walked through the crime scene in those shoes. Really? Yeah.

And he just was like suddenly forgot everything weird.

Yeah. Police nowadays say they have no clue what happened to those tennis shoes. And Sheriff Thomas, quote, did not recall anything about Justin's shoes.

So this guy is also getting paid off. Right. Something's up with this guy, the kid sketch. He apparently retired shortly after the murders. Oh, Daddy. Oh, did he have a fun retirement party?

Well, surprise, surprise. So no shock here. The case went unsolved. So the Plumas County Sheriff's Office did not investigate the full potential, obviously, either. Sheriff Thomas didn't want to had something to hide perhaps, or was getting paid off or was involved. Like, we don't know. But something fishy happened years later at the sheriff's office admitted that some of the DNA evidence was never analyzed. Justin believes he saw something on the night of the homicide or something of the aftermath, but can't remember it.

Then this is worth remember Tina, who could forget? Oh, wait.

The cop, a literal sheriff of the town. Good point. Three years to the day of the homicide, police got an anonymous tip from a caller saying they knew where Tina was gone. They followed this tip and they did find Tina's remains.

They found a skull.

Yeah, in a remote location known as Feather Falls, approximately 50 miles from the Ketti resort in a Boy Scouts camp. The call was not investigated, was not documented properly, but it directly led them to her remains. Unfortunately, there was too little of her body left for investigators to determine what happened to her. Excuse me, but according to all that's interesting, near the remains, detectives found a child's blanket, a blue nylon jacket, a pair of jeans with a missing back pocket and an empty surgical tape dispenser.

Oh, so creepy. So they use dental records. It was identified as Tina. Wow. According to the medical examiner, Tina had died sometime after November 1st, 1981, which was six months after the Keddie murders. Oh, yeah. So either she was being held or who knows what when Sheila. That was really sad, too. She was interviewed and like this people People magazine documentary I watched and she was like they told me they found Tina.

And I was like, oh, when can I see her? And I was like, and I'm like, you have to find a better way to phrase that.

Sorry. Like, oh, so she was like, so excited and her little sister was found and then like, yeah. So apparently she went to go visit her family's graves in the late eighties and saw that Tina only had a little tin plaque. So in twenty two she was able to afford a headstone for Tina and gave her like a full memorial service and everything. Wow. In 2004, the Plumas County Sheriff's Office agreed to show Sheila a timeline of her family's murders, but refused to answer any questions about Martin Smart.

But here's what we do know. So we found out later that Marilyn's daughter, Lori, who was living with her for a while, who's Martyn's, her stepdad as well. So I guess Justin's sister, Lori, confessed that after the events she was terrified of her. Update Martin, and went back to Oregon to live with her stepmother a week after Lori leaving, Martin called the cops and said that Lori had run away. But then he later confessed that he had put Lori on the bus and sent her away.

What? I don't know. Currently, he wanted her out of there, so who knows what she knew or whatever.

According to Maryland, the night after the murders, Lori also received a call from an unknown number, telling her she could be next if she didn't keep her mouth shut, huh? Yeah. So she didn't even know about the homicides yet at that point when she got this call and she's like, what? So she was terrified. She didn't know who it was. You'd think if it were her stepdad, she would have recognized her voice, but maybe was a friend who would like cover up his voice a little bit.

I'm not sure. Then, according to Lori, on the Monday after the homicides, she was called to the principal's office where they said there was a family emergency. And on the phone, her stepdad, Martin, said Justin, her brother, had witnessed the murder of five people, which is odd because there was a murder of three people and one was missing. So it was just like somebody who witnessed Tina or maybe the plan or something was or.

Yeah, maybe Tina.

I mean, he witnessed clearly, according to her being taken, he saw her being taken out. That's true. I don't know who the fifth person. I don't either. Oh, God.

So that was just odd, too, because, like, it's just a very specific number. Months later, Martin went to jail for a different crime in Maryland, literally never saw him again.

Well, it was Maryland. Say that it's probably him. Yes. Oh, OK.

While incarcerated, Martin reportedly got into it.

It sounds like anyone was scared of him, too. You know, while incarcerated, Martin reportedly got into an argument with another inmate named Meeks and yelled, you know, I got her Meeks and I'm going to get you in the same way. So not a good sign.

In 97, the Pluma Plumas County Sheriff's Office told Shela that Martin Smart was dead, although he wouldn't die for three more years. What's so wrong with this police officer? Sheriff's department is effed up.

I don't know what is going on. But apparently he was literally remarried and living in Portland, Oregon, and they called her and told her he was dead.

Oh, it's just really strange. The only thing she ever heard from Martin again was a postcard she received saying Beau is dead, Marty. But Beau literally was still alive and he wouldn't die for seven more years either. And he lived in Holiday, Florida. So like they both went to the opposite side of the country and then tried to tell Maryland that the other one was dead. So a year so that maybe she would drop it. I don't know.

Weird. So in 2013, the case was reopened by the current sheriff, whose name is Greg Hogwood, and an investigator named Mike Amberg, who both knew John and Dana, the kids, because they were the same age when they were murdered. Right. Which also goes to show like how long this has taken that like now their sheriff in town, they're close for their friend or acquaintances. They finally want to solve this murder.

He said the case continued to haunt him because he was now in charge of the evidence that had been left ignored or deliberately buried by law enforcement for three decades. Sheila says for what it's worth, she's relieved to finally somebody cares and has taken over the case. Ginsburg has reinterviewed it. Excuse me. She's reinterviewed anyone still related related to the case, although Martin and Beau by now are dead, but like they can still be charged posthumously or like at least, you know, solved cabin 20.

It was demolished in 2004 and actually in the BuzzFeed unsolved, they did an episode on this and they went to the site in the woods. And it was so creepy. They were like walking through the rubble, like the rubble of it.

It's really creepy.

So Ginsberg organized boxes from the case reports and noticed that like certain evidence had been put to the side, including one a letter from Martin to his wife, Marilyn, sent shortly after the murders. And this is literally what this fucking letter from Martin to Marilyn says, I've paid the price for your love. And now that I've bought it with four people's lives, you tell me we are through. Great. What else do you want? Oh, my God.

OK, well, there you go.

Which begs the question, was Marilyn also involved? And she didn't she partake at the end? She didn't deliver, didn't want to implicate her husband or.

I don't know. She claims she doesn't remember the letter, but she does recognize that it's Martin's handwriting. So it is confirmed to be a letter from him to her. Wow.

She doesn't remember it, which is like that seems like something you'd remember. But Ginsberg also found the anonymous phone call and they had never been analyzed that told them where Tina was. And Greg Hogwood commented why that sat in a sealed evidence envelope, never opened. I don't have the answer to that, but we have it now. Years after the homicide, Maryland came forward with a jacket she had found in their basement that had blood on it. I'm thinking maybe it belonged to Tina, but Sheriff Thomas dismissed it and it vanished and he claimed he never remembered getting it.

Aha.

So, OK, Katie Gambhir spoke to So Martin that he you know, he was part of the VA hospital in Reno. He had a counselor there. And Martin's counselor said in his seventh appointment just weeks after the Ketti murders, he confessed to the murder. But like, don't you have to tell if someone confesses they murdered? Isn't that a rumor? Like, isn't that like this is no longer a patient confidentiality here, like you murdered somebody? So according to the counselor, in May of 1981, Martin said, quote, I killed the woman and her daughter, but I didn't have anything to do with the boys.

The council passed oh, OK, sorry, the council passed this information onto the police at the time and was surprised investigators hadn't used this confession against Martin, I'm somehow not surprised.

Yeah, so I forgot that piece was even there. The oh, that's right. The agents the councillor had met with dismissed the confession as, quote, hearsay. Well, that's not how this works. That's not how it works. Someone had found a claw hammer using a metal detector also near a pond near the cabin, which matched the description. But when he found it, he didn't know what it was, so he just threw it into the lake.

Oh, my God. So he was watching.

He was on a website later and was reading about the case and was like, oh, shit, I found that hammer and called police. And they went and got it out of the lake and they tested it for blood as an additional murder weapon. But still to this day, nobody's been charged. The case still remains cold, but there are six people of interest still alive, which just means they might know something. So according to Sheriff Hagood quote, there are people locally who know more than they've said.

And I believe we've identified some of them and we know who they are and we know where they are. And I have every confidence that they either participated after the fact or they have firsthand information. It's a theory we are working that Martin and Bo are involved to the degree possible to conclude or dismiss. There's a disproportionate amount of evidence and information that points in their direction. Right.

So to say like, oh, we have a hunch, like whatever. Like you did it. They literally did it. Did it.

I mean, he wrote in a letter, I killed four people. What more do you want from me? That's your say, right? That's right. And we all forgot about that letter. Write that love letter.

Also, a lot of evidence just vanish after the sheriff already said a bloody jacket. Nobody remembers it. Oh my gosh. In nineteen eighty seven, Sheriff Doug Thomas. Fucking Sheriff Thomas his.

His deputy, Lieutenant Don, recalled to the Sacramento Sacramento Bee, the strangest thing is that there is no apparent motive. Any case without an apparent motive is the toughest to solve. So they really just acted like they had no fucking clue what was going on.

Yeah, OK. Yes, that's what I was going to say. So but they're like, OK, well, what were they where will what is the motive? Because if they did it but like why I don't think you need one at this point.

Like clearly it's going to take another 30 years for you to find a motive. Just just. Well, I have did it.

I have some theories and I'm going to see what you think. So many believe that obviously, Martin, about were guilty, including Maryland, who says but once said to her it would not have bothered him to kill a child or abroad. Well, that's a red flag. Yeah.

This theory would also explain why the three boys, which included Justin, were spared, even though there was blood found on the doorknob. So somebody either opened the door and looked in to see them. Someone knew they were there and didn't kill them, which leads people to believe it was them. Some people think they were part of a big dope deal and someone was at the wrong place. Apparently, Katy had kind of a reputation connect to the Chicago crime syndicate.

And some believe Beau was actually involved with the federal government as a police informant. And the Department of Justice covered up the crime to protect their asset. And reportedly, Department of Justice special agents flew over in a helicopter right after the murder. And they were like and the FBI got involved, as we know. So some people think there's a conspiracy here that the government covered it up because Beau was. Involved with them on some sort of sting operation?

I think a stretch, it's a stretch.

It's fully a stretch because also like, why is he murdering people? That's like that's like like a big stretch. It's not like the department. Just like Chitti killed a kid. Let's just not tell anybody. Yeah, it's just weird. In another train of thought, according to Martyn's counselor, Marilyn Smart said she had wanted a divorce the day of the murder. OK, and Marilyn had apparently sought advice from Sue weeks before because he was abusive and cheating on her.

And Sue had said, you need to leave him. Right. So it was her fault. That's her fault. Yeah. So when Martin discovered Marilyn had gone to sue, Sue became, quote, responsible for Marilyn wanting a divorce, and especially if they were drinking and who knows what. And some people believe Martin was having an affair with Sue and Sue was counseling Marilyn to leave Martin. And so Martin took her out of the picture.

But there's also a theory that Tina was the target, like with that creepy teacher, maybe something involved with who could forget, who could forget everyone sharing.

But more than likely, it was part of a cover up with Katie. According to Martin Smart's counselor, Martin told him he and Sheriff Thomas were good friends. It's even been suggested they may have been involved in nefarious activities together. Sheriff Thomas used to live in Cabin Twenty eight and even let Martin live with him for a while when he and Marilyn. So maybe he had a key, you know, that just occurred to me. But perhaps when he and Marilyn were having marital problems, apparently he doesn't only do hypnosis.

He also gave the marriage counseling, the sheriff at one point.

So anyway, end of story.

The Ketti murders still remain unsolved. It's sheriff Sheriff Haggard's belief that there were more than two people who are involved in the totality of the crime, including the disposal of the evidence in the abduction of the little girl. Quote, We're convinced that there are a handful of people that fit those roles who are still alive. So it remains unsolved.

But investigators hold on to hope that Sheila, Ricky, Greg, the sharp family and the investigators will find justice. So anyone who has any information on the Ketti murders is out, including a counselor who works at the VA hospital, I guess is asked to call the Ketti murders hotline at two eight three six three zero six. That's not a number. That's not a phone number.

About one, two three to two eight three zero three six oh with no area code, apparently.

Just sure. Just go to Ketti Count murder hotline.

I just talked to the sheriff, just Ask Jeeves about it.

And I'll tell you what, anyway, end of story, Sheriff Geeves. Well, that was long. He doesn't remember anything now, so I that was good.

I was I was a long one, but it was just I knew that was going to be a lot of moving. You really followed it very well. So thank you for helping me tell that with all the moving pieces and wasn't thank God for Justin if it weren't for Justin.

Really have not had a poor kid though.

Well, yeah. Yeah. Just like playing out like here. No, stab me here like oh I hope he's had a lot of therapy and been given a lot of hugs.

He's been I led a fulfilling, fulfilling, filled life. I hope he's led with love and like. Yeah, everything. I hope everything sparks joy for Justin.

OK, ok. Anyway, thank you for watching and listening to us talk for watching and listening. Experiencing in 3D.

Oh how many Macs surround sound are we all around.

OK, let's hang up. I have to be. Let's go. Let's, let's. OK. Yeah let's close. Look what's wrong with me.

Close the door you go. OK. Thanks everyone for listening.

And and and no and all right. Stupid me. That's why we drink apparently.

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