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Gifts are easy with helpful elves. A wonderland to explore total wine and more could responsibly be 21.


Hello, everyone, this is absurd to one, and we started a few minutes ago, but then I started singing and everything broke, so unfortunately I put those two together.


But you're not wrong. I started singing a really, really good song, by the way, that I made up in my head. It was it was so good. Like, I can't I couldn't even sing it again. Like, you'll never even know it because, like, it was too good your ears would bleed. That's exactly right.


It was like heavenly choir singing and then all of a sudden all the audio equipment just died.


So again, your ears would bleed. So here we are in my very monotone, not singing voice. Welcome to Episode two one.


Welcome. That is why we dream I missed you, but I feel like I saw you recently.


I also miss you and I feel like I haven't talked to you, even though you called me at six in the morning today.


So that's OK. I'm glad you said something.


First of all, I should have not been behind the wheel because I know because I was just saying I missed you because in my head I was like, didn't we talk recently? And it was this morning. OK, got it. OK, I'm taking a nap on my way. I've been I've taken a nap, OK. And I was going to ask because I answered the phone.


It was like nine a.m. my time. I was taking Gio to daycare and I was like, oh my God, it's six a.m. and this time something must be terribly wrong.


And so I answer and I'm like, Hello and Mehos, I know you have phone anxiety, but everything's fine. And I was like, it's all my phone anxiety. It's the fact that you're awake at six in the morning. Something must be wrong. I did. I call I called with the intention that the first thing I'd say is don't panic, everything's fine because I was also behind the wheel.


So it was a bad, bad combination.


We also face time last night. What about that? Checks out.


So yesterday I was like, I'm going to do this cool digital escape route. I'm created. I mean, Lemonde created and, you know, as vengeance for the lemon mapping from from yesteryear, literally, like almost exactly a year ago, I gave you your first escape route.




Oh, my God. And that video is going to take me another year to edit. And so if you haven't seen it, it's on the patriot of the lemon napping incident escape room and MS apartment and so and was like, I'm going to do a 200 episode extravaganza and make a digital escape room. And boy, oh, boy, was it tough. And people on the Internet were freaking out at you. And I was like asking for clues.


I mean, it was tough.


I I appreciate that. Although a lot of people have struggled through it, they're very committed to getting it through it. Yes. They're I don't think I've heard of anyone who's just given up entirely. Everyone's like, I'm going to come back at this with a fresh mind the next day. And I'm like, wow, that's dedication.


I really I agree. Granted, again, I'm the person who made it so like, I really don't get a place, but I feel like I tried a lot harder on the lemon escape route.


I don't do enough escapers to get like I didn't really understand that you can reuse numbers and like, I think I just didn't totally understand how it worked.


I think the third one, maybe I'll be like, OK, yeah, fucking got this. Listen, I'm getting way too good at create. Obviously I'm getting way too good at creating escape room. So I think it's going to be a little side hustle of mine. I also I was shocked that I was able to do that. I did it in a day which like if I can do that one in a day, if I think of what I could accomplish and Alison's gone.


Oh, my God. Too powerful sia at the end of this month when I run my own escaper in business.


So I'm out of our haunted apartment. What else I am. I'm glad you liked it. I was nervous that it wasn't going to be hard enough, but apparently I need to calm them down. So you need to calm the fuck down. It was very difficult. We had to I had to print things.


I had to like Google things. I had to search like. And that's part of the game.


Like, you have to go into our podcast and find, like, clues.


I mean, it is not so. And I was just like so wildly impressed. And there was a point, OK, to be fair, one of the reasons I got stuck was because I, as Evan says, New Lemonde, too. Well, sure. The insider info that other listeners didn't have. So I got the number wrong.


Yeah, but so just saying you are too good at your job was the price is too good at knowing Lemon, who apparently had Lemon Naped me but so I posted the link so you can actually go do it.


I also made a bit early to post it on Twitter.


So it's a bit like Lemon's revenge I think it's called. Yeah. So you can go there. It's really fun and let us know if you beat it because it took me a long time.


I filmed it and it was an hour and a forty minutes of filming. I get me through this thing.


I knew it was an hour, forty minutes because Alison asked me how long it took you and I went through our texts and I was like, oh, she started at two thirty and she ended up for fifteen.


OK, about thirty five minutes it was me screaming about how levit like I couldn't figure out that one date correctly, but I am helped to me.


I'm impressed with how far you got because last night a lot of people were deeming me being like I can't figure it out. And they were on like the earliest clue. And I was like, oh I don't want to be the one to. Tell you, but like, if you can't figure out that you're probably not going to make it, you're on your own at this point and it's all through my Google Drive. So, like, I can see all the responses and so I can see how many people actually successfully got through the escape room.


And right now it's only like 30 people.


So like I'm like hundreds of tried this thing. So I feel very, very difficult. I feel like such an asshole. But whatever someone.


No, you don't. I love the power. I do like that.


I have caused a stir, but I would like to answer it sometimes.


I think a lot of us are afraid of your impressed and afraid of your mind and how its operations. But anyway, I said go try it. Oh, here's OK.


If you're on a day like this is just like a glimpse into the chaotic things that were happening.


What everyone has been sending me their notes like I have so many times right now of random people's notes. And one person blew my mind, like made it wildly more difficult than I did because they were like, am I on the right track? And sent me these words that were not even like they were like Egyptian.


And I was like, what is happening were like hieroglyphics. It's very interesting to see how the human mind works. It's just all a downward spiral, but different downwards. So anyway, we've talked a lot about that.


But yes, please, I made it for the two 100th episode. I'm very happy that you liked it. And I'm glad other people are at least doing something during quarantine with their mind.


Yeah, the only thing that we realized that was like pretty well, I mean, there's a lot of things we realized that was pretty wild. But one of the things that, like, stuck with me is that it both so and was like, remember that first lemon knapping video, which I need to watch.


I haven't watched in like a year. So I guess there's a certain point where I'm screaming fish.


I don't know particularly why, but apparently there was a point where I just kept screaming fish. That was I just got so worked up and tells me this on face time last night after I did the escape room and I went, and you know what? During this thing by myself in my podcast studio, while I was recording it, there was a point where I was screaming fish.


Is it a fish? I don't know. Like what my brain, like, turns into it. Tapped into your previous PTSD from the last escape room.


It must just be some weird avenue that gets unlocked when I'm doing a puzzle, a brain puzzle.


But for whatever reason, I just start shouting fish repeatedly.


You know, Mark Zuckerberg would it really has fucked me up, I think, because I have that same problem. But like when my when my brain blinks like what I'm like, what was I just thinking about? My first thought is always Facebook and I have no regrets.


I have no clue what I if I'm just sitting in front of a TV and I'm like, what do I want to watch? The first thing in my head is Facebook. And like, when I really get in front of a computer, I think like maybe like there is a chip in me. I'm not sure at this point, but like, every time there's some sort of a chip in you.


Yeah, every every time I have to reboot my my like you go into manual mode of my thinking.


The first night was so sad because in twenty years people would be like, what's Facebook? And you'll be like, you know, a model twenty five.


We're like people just can't access like the iPhone that everyone has right now.


Yeah. Oh my God.


Anyway, sorry but that I just wanted to bring that up because while that was a fun ride and also really infuriating, but also fun once it was solved, now that I know it's a little too much, the next one I make, I'll I'll try to loosen it up a little bit.


So sorry about that. But I probably will be making more of these in the future. I think this one, just because it was for the two hundredth I, it was you know, I wanted everyone to have the experience, but I think in the future it would be a really nice addition to Patreon. So. Oh yeah. I think from now on I will be making escape rooms. And, you know, that might just be like something the Pentagon folks get.




Oh, and I'm editing the video of me and then I FaceTime during it.


So I'm going to make that into a patron video.


If you so choose to watch my pain, I, I absolutely will do it on repeat so.


Christine, I, I did something different today. No, I did something different, tell me more.


I did something adult and I put on new sheets on my bed that is short. And they were Brooklyn and sheets. They divine. They were divine. I have never had comfier, comfier sheets in the whole wide world. And they look classy. Yes, they did. If someone were to walk in my room, they'd be like, Oh, someone's classy in here.


And I'd say someone has walked in my room and it was my mother and she was like, what? She was like. She was like touching that. I was like, touch on my bed. And she's like, put there.


So I wasn't like, stop. I was like, no, feel it and feel the pillows. They're so soft. I sort of got these Brooklyn and sheets. It's true. You feel like a grown up for the first time ever, really for the first time in ever.


So Brooklyn was started by Rich and Vicky, who also tried to find a beautiful home, essentials that didn't cost an arm and a leg. And when they couldn't, they found founded Brooklyn and as the first direct to consumer bedding company.


Yeah. So they have over fifty thousand five star reviews and counting their high, high quality. They even have more than sheets of comforters, pillows, towels, loungewear. It's it's beautiful. I have like the pin striped one. It's just a navy and it's like silky. Oh so nice.


The next one I'm going to get as Navy. But right now I have Grey and then I have I have the window pane one where it's like, oh, that's a nice white with the great. When Allison's family came to visit, we let them use those sheets and they were like, oh, so these are your these are your guest sheets. And really, we gave them like the fancy sheets, but we wanted them to think like we have fancy you know, these are just our specialties anyway.


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Hey, if you didn't know this, Christine and I, wow, we need a lot of help. Hey, how dare you know that's that's true. A thousand percent true. And luckily, we have better help to help us. Come on. I mean, with everything going on in the world, especially this year and just in our personal lives, there's always a reason to need to get something off your chest. And with better hope we can do that.


It's true.


Even when I was working at Nickelodeon, I used better help and it was so nice. Well, let me tell you what they are first, because you're like, what are you what are you talking about? Better basically assesses your needs and majesty with your own licensed professional therapist and you can start communicating with them in under 48 hours. So it's like it isn't a crisis line. It's not self-help. It's actual professional counseling done securely online. And that's why when we were recording and touring and I was working full time, it was so nice to be able to go on my lunch break and talk to somebody on a schedule that worked for me.


It better help really saved me.


I mean, really, one of the best aspects of it is that you if you're traveling or if you're remote, I mean, you don't have to go to a brick and mortar place if it's not convenient for you or if maybe you are someone who can't even leave the home, you know, you've got help. Yeah.


Especially now, like you said, especially now, you don't want to go to a waiting room and sit around. So, yeah, very handy.


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My story today is something I have wanted to cover a for a while. I knew of it since like the maybe it was the Harry Price or Houdini episodes and I've known about it, but I didn't I had never really looked into it. And now that I've done the research, I was like, whoa, there were a little there were some twisty Turney's here I didn't see coming.


And it's very fun. So please let me introduce to you the Fox sisters, who are also known, according to Google, as the Rochester knockers. They're also known as the spirit knockers of Rochester and they're also known as the Rochester Wrapping's.


That's is so alliteration. A little.


A little, a little alliteration. They're also known as the people who accidentally founded American spiritualism. Oh.


So that sounds like some bullshit we would do. Oops, it was an accident. OK, so I want you to remember that you said that I didn't fuck, OK? I didn't put this in your mind. But I'm also going to say near the end of this, in like the late end of this and the early end of this, there's a lot of similarities between, OK, some weird things happen. So but yeah. So I guess spiritualism, usually the founders are people like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and all that.


But when it comes to the two waves of spiritualism in America, the first one came from the Fox sisters and they did not mean to do this. So fun fact. I didn't know this was an accident. So this happens.


It starts in Hitsville, New York, and we're in the forties, you know.


Well, so I'm eighteen forty eight. The Fox family, they have six kids. I think the husband's name is John and I'm pretty sure the mom's name was Margaret. The six kids were Maggie and Kate, who are our main characters. And there was also Leah, who we should remember for later, and then David, Elizabeth and Maria, Elizabeth and Maria we never hear about again. So you don't forget them. You don't have to worry about them.


Got it. So the last four there, Leah, David, Elizabeth and Maria were much older. And by the time this story was happening, they had already all moved out. So it was just Maggie and Kate in the house. Got it. Maggie was fourteen and Kate was eleven.


So this happens.


The whole thing starts on March 4th, PI day. So we're off to a good start.


That's March 14th. Oh, shit. You're right. Damn. Well, I got nothing.


I am. That's our favorite holiday.


And you forgot. How dare I? I actually I'm very embarrassed. I did know it was right. No one's going to believe me. Whatever. OK, so not pi day, which happens 364 times a year.


The first day of Advent of Pi day. It's OK. Yeah. You guys know pi day in my head. I heard like the rent song Seasons of Love, but see.


Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I you know what happens when we say the technology breaks down that like five hundred five thousand different flavors.


OK, another time. Another time, OK, another time. OK, so the foxes were living currently in a smaller cottage and they were waiting for their house to be built. And while they were kind of in transition between these homes, I'm pretty sure this ended up happening in both homes. But it started in the cottage. They started hearing these knockings or as they were referred to back then, as a wrapping's. But I wanted to make sure I said knockings first.


So people didn't think these little Trey Songz preteen girls are, like, trying to sing, like, bottoms up.


You know, that's what I think is happening. I don't care what you say. That's exactly what's going on. I mean, in today's world, they're all singing wop. And so, like, you know, maybe they like that. Just like Facebook. Your first thought is bottoms up or like these pretty songs.


I thought your reference points, I, I saw somebody posts online that Trey Songz had a super shredder event.


He certainly did like the real Trey Songz action. OK, not my upstairs noisy neighbors, but they're up there. They're upstairs. Noisy, right? Yeah. He apparently threw a party of like five hundred people after he had already been positive for a couple of months ago. Oh, great. So, wow, cool. Surprise. He's pretty inconsiderate.


That's all I say, to sell this wrapping around you here in your apartment, just rapping and knocking and getting covid. So so they were hearing all these wrapping's, which I hear all the time from Trey Songz also.


It also sounds like Jeff the mongoose starting here. Bingo.


And I think Jeff the mongoose was was it right around the same time? Oh, I don't I certainly don't know. Give or take 50 years. I'm sure I'm correct. It's like a century century. I could be right. I'm probably still fucking not, which is the most embarrassing part.


So their father was like, OK, what is going on? Where are all these knockings coming from? So he's looking around. He doesn't know what where they're coming from and they just kind of ignore it because they're like, well, I don't know what that is, but, you know, here we are just just knocking. And it started getting really wild and really loud and it started actually responding to them. They noticed that, oh, boy.


Like they notice that they were able to say, like, well, why don't you knock if you're going to knock that many times, knock this many times, and then it would actually do it. So I guess the parents were super Christians and they were like, oh, the devil is has arrived.


That's also us to like, oh, we hear strange noise. It's definitely Satan himself.


The devil has arrived is what I tell Eva when you landed in L.A. big.


So they thought, OK, so Christine's here and but their eleven year old Kate apparently thought it was also the devil and decided to try to communicate immediately with the course was again this kind of sounds a little bit like little U of like. Yes. Oh you said that's a demon. Well, in that case, we ought to really get to know each other.


Thank God I keep a Ouija board under my bed.


Mom, that since you threw away the last one, I feel like you've got like one like you've got like one of those, like old flasher jackets. We're like like people would like to sell. You go, yeah. Tretiak where they would like you watches on the street but you only have different like Ouija plan chats, you know, and they're all mine.


I just want to show them off like I can't buy them. You tuck it away fast, like, no, no, no, these aren't for sale. First, I just want you just I'm just bragging.


It is flashing. Technically, you're just like flashing your plan, so then hiding them again.


So and we know that Kate thought this was the devil because she was calling this source.


Ah, the spirit or this whatever was calling it Mr Split Foot, which apparently back then was a term for the devil because like Yelich cloak moves.


Oh so Kate was saying Mr Split Foot do as I do and then would like knock three times and then there would be three knocks. So and things like that start happening pretty often. This is where I, I had a little tangent but I'm proud of it. They started testing out different patterns and speeds and so they were just seeing how far they could go with it. And it was almost like a Simon says, according to a few sources, and then that made me want to deep dive, Simon says.


So here's what we have on. Simon says, Are you ready?


Yes. OK, according to World Histories, Daughton, that's the earliest reference to Simon says, is an eighteen forty two, which is literally six years before the story happened. So that's interesting.


It really could just be a totally coincidentally a coincidence, but so is in a column in a Boston magazine.


And the article was called All Sorts of paragraphs, which I really I really appreciate the like the accepted. Of like even I don't know what I'm going to fucking read this like term paper here, it's my title. All sorts of all sorts of oh, who's to say what's in it? But you know what? You know what to expect at this point.


So so in the article called all sorts of paragraphs, this what they were talking about, I guess someone named Simon and this was the description for Simon. Simon is a great talker. Sometimes he says up, sometimes he says down, and sometimes he says wiggle waggle. It's always cheapest to do as Simon says.


What the fuck? This is all sorts of paragraphs, all sorts of words, all sorts of nonsense, all sorts of sanity.


I don't know. Apparently, that's the earliest reference. And I guess that's where it might have stemmed from. But then it definitely at least happened around that time, because only a few years later, there was an article of actually, I guess Simon says the game itself hasn't officially been mentioned yet, but this article must have gotten some, like viral attention because of a few articles or a few years later, there was another newspaper that was talking about a person named Simon, and they had to like specifically indicate in their newspaper, they said Simon, not of wiggle waggle fame.


Oh, like a parrot.


My mistake. So apparently this wiggle and waggling Simon has gained quite a fan base and notoriety. And this newspaper, by the way, was an organ so literally on the other side of the country, it had to be like, OK, it's not the same guy. Like was there only to Simon's at the time.


This is so wild. It's like which which one is it, the wiggle waggle or the or like the one in the Bible. The one.


Oh my God.


Anyway, that was my little not so my shallow dive if you will on Simon's my and waggling fingers on the keyboard.


Found all that about Simon says Oh my God.


So yeah. So we're back to Kate is like doing all these tests to see how much she can get out of this mocking spirit. And Maggie saw that it was responding intelligently to Kate. So Maggie asked the spirit to wrap or knock out the ages of each of the kids.


And the spirit actually did it successfully, including a seventh child that passed away when he was three. Oh, no.


So that's odd. And so they decided that they were going to do kind of what any paranormal investigator would do.


Now, we're kind of set boundaries for yourself when, like there's like equipment and you're trying to use it to communicate like this means yes. Yes. Means now. So they said one knock for no and two knocks for yes. And the first questions that they asked, where are you a spirit? Were you killed in this house? And is the person who killed you still living? And all of those responses got. Yes. Or all those questions about yes to them.


So through this, the family, I guess, over time figured out that this was a thirty one year old man who had died in the house, which I can't imagine if you're like, how old are you?


And you had to count thirty one. Actually, that's a good point. Can you imagine if there was that thirty two or thirty one and he's like not again.


I feel like I, I'm one knock, I'm like I'm over it. I can't have a baby, don't worry about it. So apparently this is happening for the entire month. Super. And now we're at the last day of March. Right. March 31st. And the mom was apparently so freaked out at this point because the knocking just wasn't ending. It was clearly intelligent at this point. The mom had one of the older kids come over her son, David, and he was like being kind of like.


I guess snobby about it or he was like, I guess he didn't believe it, and so he was acting kind of condescending and he basically told her like, well, whatever you do, don't tell the neighbors. Because like like when you find out what it actually is and it's something really simple, you're gonna feel really stupid. And then you just see you're going to embarrass yourself.


Well, apparently, Maggie overheard that and was like, OK, fuck you. And immediately went and told all the neighbors and oh, OK. And then invited all all of them over for their own opinion. And so all these skeptical neighbors came over. They all huddled into the family bedroom and the sisters were there and the mom was also there. So I think it was the mom who said, count to five.


I was like the first real command during this little session and the room banged out five, five knocks.


And they were really, really heavy thuds that freaked them out for a second. But I'm sure they were like, OK, someone's being kind of foolish or, you know, this could be anything. And I guess with enough demands like that and realizing everyone was in the house and no one else could have been doing it, the neighbors started to believe it themselves.


So they ended up I guess one of the neighbors also chimed in and said, like, well, what's my age? And it got the answer right. Mhm.


One of the questions was if you're an injured spirit manifested by three raps and then there were three knocks according to the Paris Review, one neighbor named William Duesler, which I can imagine quickly turned into Duesler in high school.


Yeah, he tried talking to the spirit and he basically his technique, which like makes sense but like sounds wildly inconvenient, was like A equals one. B equals two all the way to Z equals twenty six. So like if this guy wanted to like catch some Z's, I'd be like eighty Knox in a row and you're going to, you're not going to be able to successfully count all of those.


I paramo irritating. Yes. Not the most efficient I would imagine.


You imagine like what's your favorite animal. And he wanted to say zebra and it's like a hundred an ox.


It's like OK I don't know anymore. I don't care anymore actually.


What's this. An aardvark.


So. So this William Duesler guy said, let's do it that way and we can ask you more questions. I have to imagine this session then lasted about ten hours of everyone can knock together. And through this they learned that the spirit was named Charles B. Rozner, OK?


And he was a peddler that apparently was robbed of five hundred dollars and then killed in the in the bedroom they were standing in. And he had been killed five years ago by the then resident John Bell.


Oh. Oh, like, that's a sounds like he's really trying to it sounds like one of those situations where I remember we both covered it at different times.


I think we both mentioned that we're like there was like ghosts who like, yes. Successor board, like successfully helped confirm a murder or like there's like it was the only paranormal testimony that was taken seriously, admitted in court, like they admitted it as testimony court.


A Ouija board session. Yeah. I called out the murderer. Yeah. Yeah.


If I mysteriously die, I swear to God, if there is not a legal testimony documenting my court case via Ouija board, I will be so pissed you're going to be knocking and I'm just going to be like, God, that's annoying.


I don't know what that is like. It's really can you chill? Can you, like, go towards the light or something? Because I have a migraine.


Do you know what makes this time of year truly wonderful? Is it holiday music? Because that's all I blast through my whole house now. It's the holiday music, which, by the way, is year round in my house. So, yeah, it starts sort of a long time away from being fully finally like people are on board.


And I'm not looking alone here. Exactly. And so I use Amazon music. I'm sure you do, too. If you haven't tried before. It's great. I put on basically like holiday playlist and like when I was decorating, it gets me to do things like clean or clean and it's actually like really, really handy because I have you know, I don't want to say the word Alexa oops.


In every like all around my house. So anyway, I'm cleaning or whatever, I'm just like, good. The music could go anywhere. Truly, it's I love it. Honestly, no matter where you go, the music follows. If you haven't tried Amazon music before for a limited time, you can get your first three months of Amazon Music Unlimited for free. And that's access to more than 70 million songs on demand and ad free. And you can play the songs you want when you want free for three months.


You can play Mariah on repeat into twenty twenty one if you feel like you need it, which I think I do.


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So through that same technique, they also found out that Charles was murdered. Fun fact on a Tuesday at midnight and that he was buried in the basement.


Oh no.


Oh so John, John Fox and the neighbors went down to inspect the cellar for remains and they ended up finding strands of hair bones. And some even say they've also found teeth. But apparently they were unidentifiable. Yeah, it's 1848. I can't imagine you, like, had the forensics abilities to do, but so apparently they found body remains down there. No.


So that was the real the kicker for the neighbors to believe it. And they started spreading this information like crazy. And it kind of just got I don't know, I guess the news went a little wild fire and the spirit started getting chattier because more people wanted to stop by and see the spirit.


Aha. So basically, the spirit is now telling the family that not only could it hear them and respond to them, but it has been able to see them the whole time. And they're now testing this by holding fingers up. How many fingers am I holding. Aha.


So as the story became more widespread, the spirit also seems to very quickly become more closed off to responding to other people. It was now the phrasing that they used was something along the lines of like it was attaching to the girls.


But I think what was happening, if this was fake, is that they just were getting really nervous that they were going to get caught in something.


And so, like, into a little bit.


Yeah. And so now the spirit is telling everyone, like, oh, I only work through the the pre teens.


Yeah. You know how it is.


And so if anyone wants to ask questions, if they came to visit and wanted to ask a question, they could, but it had to be through Maggie or Kate. Aha. OK, yeah.


So the spirit would suspiciously only be responsive with the sisters. And within a few weeks the Fox house was swarmed with people visiting for a chance to witness the spirit themselves, which I wonder why they kept calling it a spirit if they knew his name was Charles.


Yeah. So I think what was happening was now the the story has also developed into, oh, they can talk to many spirits who will all communicate this way.


So visitors were really like swarming the town, like it was getting really bad in the Fox family had to move in the middle of the night.


Oh. Because so many people were like trying to break down their house to get in and like what, like talks to have these children tell them if their ancestors were around, which I can't imagine how terrifying it would be as an eleven year old.


And people like, tell me about my dead, you know, so and so.


Oh, so they ended up having to move. They moved to their brother, son, brother David's spearmint farm, which is precious. Oh goodness. When I think Spearmen Farm, I think like instead of like. Like fields of corn, I think of like fields of like green tried and gum, like, yes, yes. I don't know how to think of it in any other way. It's definitely not like actual spearmen. It's just I have Spearmon in my Newgarden.




Is it look like Trident is a little bit now. No, I tasted it.


It tastes like, like I said I was like oh this is Spearmon which is like such a random thought. We even just mint. It's like spearmint which is really specific but you should girl taste just like it.


You should grow peppermint next to it and then tell me if you can see the difference. Well I have regular mint.


I don't know how much of that is pepper. I don't know what the differences between. I know peppermint is blue trident.


Oh I see. Well what flavor is the zebra stripes? Because that's the one that I love.


Fruity Shrimps. Yeah. How do I. I would like. How do you how do you. I think you just squeeze a lot of juices into gum. I don't really I'm not sure how gums made.


Well but you have to like have a little blue zebra tattoo on it.


So it sounds like you add zebra to the fruit smoothie and were so fun and gross they were very delicious.


And to this day, if I see fruity stripes, I will buy it. But wow, the flavor goes out in three to one. OK, it's yeah.


It's like you're eating one bite of something and then you have just like Silly Putty in your mouth or something. Exactly.


It's basically the entire package because like you're just trying to feel something if you're a youth out there.


It was this gun with Xebra on it and it was super strong tasting. But then it would like. Yeah, evaporate in a second.


But the wrappers had these like pictures and you would like it was OK, like fruit roll ups, like for rolls with like the blue tattoos that you could put on your tongue and you would like put it on your tongue and it would like have ink and oh my God, it was it was so fun.


It was the first of its kind in the nineties.


I think it was the first ever like you kind of give us the first and only of any kind of art you can take out the gun. But first on the wrapper, you can put your put your tongue on it and have a zebra tattoo. And also, like, I'm sure that was not FDA approved. No, certainly not.


So anything I was actually, like, scared to say because I was like, what if that was just me?


And I'm like, you did what with your nose in your tattoo? But wait, did you just put it on your tongue? Because I would put it on my arm.


Oh, I always only put it on my tongue. It didn't even close my mind. I could put it somewhere else. I just thought I never worked.


So maybe I was just smearing it all.


You really could have done the exact same effect with like one of those like extra wide, like blue Crayola markers.


You can I'm sure I did to just smear it all over your body.


I honestly don't know if it was even supposed to be a tattoo or if it was just really cheap ink and I thought it could have a purpose.


Well, I'm glad it wasn't just me. I felt like really embarrassed for a minute there. No forty stripes was.


I had three gums that I chewed when I was a child. It was the entire package for two Duchamp's. It was Strawbery Bubblicious, which to this day makes my mouth literally salivate like I need so good to swallow and.


Oh, and then the sour Apple bubble tape. I love that shit. Yeah, and during Halloween, it glow in the dark. Oh. Oh, we could talk about gum for a while. Apparently I did, apparently.


And we did. And we do. I didn't know that was possible, but learning new things every day. So they moved to their brothers spearmint farm.


That's how this happened though. Oops.


Like the Willy Wonka of gum.


OK, so David actually while they were all their research, this John Bell guy who allegedly killed the spirit they're talking to and he did check out, there was a guy named John Bell that used to live in their house five years before they moved in. So that didn't seem good. And visitors also at this point have heard the rumors that they moved to the spearmen farm.


So now they're also like taking over the Spearmon farm now.


And David basically started talking to neighbors, but I don't really know what their plan was, if all of them were just going to uproot or something. But before they left, he wanted to get down to the bottom of this John Bell stuff. And he was trying to talk to neighbors who did say that they remember seeing a peddler coming into town who they did not recognize. I guess at the time they knew all of the paddlers in town, but there was one person they couldn't recognize who did stay at the Bell house the one night they were there, that they were in town.


And they remember hearing a fight at John Bell's house and then the next day, never seeing the peddler again. But John Bell was wearing his clothes.


What? OK, so it sounds fishy.


Yes, it does. Only 12 days after, by the way, like everything I've been saying happened within like a 12 day span of like the neighbors heard about it. And now the entire town is covered with tourists trying to learn about this. So in that 12 day time period, that was also when people were starting to do make like tourist pamphlets about the two sisters, about Matt, about Maggie and Kate Fox. And so this pamphlet was starting to get spread to different areas and one of the wider regions that got to happen to be where their sister lived, Leah.


And so at the time, there wasn't telephones. So she had no idea this was going on with her family. As she found out through a fucking pamphlet, she was like, my sisters can walk.


Oh, no. And so I guess she had a daughter named Lizzie. And I don't know if this is important later, but apparently her husband left her and left her with no money, but left her with Lizzie. So just to remember that for like the end of this, but it was apparently I guess she saw this pamphlet immediately went home and brought Lizzie with her just to make sure that everyone was OK. And when Leah got home, she saw that they were being swarmed, like she saw that this was kind of, I guess, the version of like a fandom and the eighteen days.


And so my this is the first little plot twist, which I did I never knew about. She saw this for herself because she was like I did not know they could do this. I didn't know that this started up in the house. She found out that apparently these knockings were legitimate and she couldn't figure it out and people were going gaga for it. And she Olá. Kris Jenner became their manager.


I guess they're sajor. Oh, my God. She saw she saw dollar signs and she did. When I'm going to Rock Rock the Nation with us, she's a single mom and she is resourceful.


Exactly. Exactly. She was like, I know exactly what I'm going to do, even if I know nothing about it at all. Yet I love it.


So she wanted to bring the girls back with her. I think she lived in Rochester. I think her like her home was in Rochester and she wanted to bring the girls. But Kate was too young and had to go to school still apparently at fourteen. You didn't have to do that anymore. So Maggie was allowed to go. And so I don't know if you. Did you watch the Hamilton movie? Yes.


OK, so you know how there's like that one song where they're like Angelica Eliza and then there's like. Yes, random third sister who goes and Peggy. Yes.


OK, so I very much feel like it has become the Peggy here because it was like the Maggie and Kate show.


And then Leo was like, my turn. And also, Kate, you have to go to school and you're not involved anymore. And Leah, like, pushed her out.


So it's the Fox sisters.


It's three of them. But Kate is like no longer part of the story. She's a she's an arithmetic club.


She's. Too busy with her social studies. Oh, so even though Maggie and Kate are separated, Kate goes back with Leah and Leah's daughter and the knockings are still happening. All the spooky stuff is still happening even though the sisters are separated. But then again, Leah realizes very quickly that she got herself into some hot water because not only are there knockings, but strange things are starting to happen, which like you signed up for like there were you you thought your sister was haunted and you wanted to bring her back with you and now you're complaining that the place is haunted, like what is going on?


So I guess Leah's daughter started waking up to icy hands on her and she saw a Bible get thrown across the room. And Leah also said that she was getting touched. They also started hearing the sounds of construction. But what I find interesting is they would specifically define it as the sound of someone building a coffin, which like that's a very specific thing to know. How would you know? It's just cutting wood and nailing like, how do you know what?


That's a coffin. But they describe it as like, oh, we hear the sounds of a coffin being made all the time. And it's like maybe I don't know how to build a coffin. Maybe there is a specific piece of equipment that only gets used for coffins. But apparently they just knew that that was what was going on.


Maybe back then there were more things being built and you just had like an ear for it. But that seems very specific.


It's like when you're blindfolded, but you know exactly which left and right directions to take you to like your favorite restaurant.


I mean, I don't since I have no concept of direction, but yeah, I can imagine that's what it would be like.


I was a one time in high school. Me and my friends, we all try to surprise our friend, take them to Red Robin. And by the time we got in the parking lot, they were like, oh, we're at Red Robin. While they were like hardcore blindfolded, like, oh, I see you have their face.


I was like, how did you know how we got here? So people just I guess you're right. I have like a weird knack for certain things and like to be able to know, oh, you cut for this long and the nail this many times. Obviously, that's a coffin that's being made. Oh my gosh. So I'm guessing that's what it was. Or they're just being dramatic, which could also very much be it also. It could be both.




So apparently Lizzie, the daughter of Leah, just hated this entire arrangement, was like, why did we even have to invite this fucking person into our house? Like, wires are knocking all the time. Now, why do I have to feel like I can see Bibles getting thrown like I don't I didn't sign up for this? Yeah. And the neighbors are also complaining about the knocking. So Maggie is just like causing all sorts of problems. And Leah decides, OK, well, we're just going to move to a bigger house because now they can afford it because she's starting to exploit her sister's talents.


Beautiful. So they move to a bigger house in Rochester. And there are two people who amongst everybody else who wants to meet Maggie, they really want to be Maggie, her name. Their names are Isaac and Amy. They're a married couple. They're former Quakers in the area. And they invite Maggie to their house for a personal session. And Isaac said he was originally as skeptical as doubting Thomas until very distinct thumbs started from under their floor. And there's no way that Maggie could have done them.


The I guess here's a twist.


So Isaac and Amy also start believing that not only was Maggie gifted, but they also were convinced that Leah was gifted because Leah was now all of a sudden showing mediumistic powers. Kate who?


And Peggy, because now she was also starting to be able to communicate with Isaac and Amy's deceased daughter, which, oh, this always gets real talk about pulling on the heartstrings, talk about shady behavior.


So now this is something Harry Houdini would be exactly against. Yes. So now Leah and Maggie both have the ability to communicate with spirits and they would have impromptu seances. They would not accept money, but they would accept extravagant gifts, really, which is what I say on my birthday when people are like, what do you want?


And I'm like, I don't know. But like, if it if it happens to be luxurious, I'll take a pony. Yeah, a pony for my pony. OK, really? Because I'm like, you can give me cash if you want actually out of a pony.


You know what I thought would be the perfect gift, which like there's no way you can kindly ask for this. So if I could really have gotten anything for Christmas, I would have wanted people to just reimburse me for all the shit I bought them. Like I would just.


Oh, that's nice by yourself. Yeah. Like I buy your own gift. Like my OK, so one of my stepbrothers, he always gives me always, always, always, always gives me a twenty five dollar Amazon gift card. I know it's coming, I'm going to thank him but I'm going to act shocked.


But so I always know for Christmas to get him something that's exactly twenty five dollars. So anything I end up spending zero dollars but I wish I could text and be like look we both know what's about to happen. Let's just not even try, you know.


Oh I see. By selling off Amazon, put my name on it. Yeah, it's like, you're welcome, you're going to give me twenty five dollars of stuff. I'm going to give you twenty five dollars of stuff. Let's just not even do that.


I like the we're saying this even though you and I like all we care about is like giving each other gifts because it's just fun.


So I so there's a difference between the gifts I give you and the gifts I give like family that I don't.


Yeah, I get it. That's true.


Like when I have to sit down and like really like think about what I should get you because I don't know you well enough. I'm like, why am I wasting the time when I could just give you cash to do it yourself when the other person's doing the same thing to you and you're like, yeah, I guess with you it's fine like with Alice and it's fine because it's like I'm doing something that's really sentimental and there's emotional value in like time and effort that went into it.


And there's like a creativity aspect. But when it's like I'm trying to find something on Amazon that you won't totally hate, so I can get a thank you, like socially you have to.


Yeah. And it's like, oh, that's like, listen, let's talk about consumerism, OK?


Let's not but that's a podcast for another day and another person.


That's not me. But you let me just say this is a bad look for for the planet anyway.


My it's my take. I was thinking the whole time because I spent like X amount of dollars which I will not say no, but let's just say six thousand dollars, not six thousand but not six either.




You know, I was complaining to Alison about this. I had a mini meltdown because I was like, if my parents just decided to, like, not have fucking scandals in their relationship and they were just happily married, me as an only child would have to Christmas responsibilities. Mom, dad, I don't even have fucking siblings like I'm. No, I'm in the clear. I have to buy two people things. Awesome. I know. But because they decided to be fucking messy, I have to literally buy things for 30 family members.


Yeah, exactly. And I don't want to do that.


So if I can then I'm like and then I'm like, oh so like my dad seeing somebody and I'm like, so I need to like I would like to get our but I'm like how nice of like is she going to get me again. Like this is so weird. I don't know, I might be going to see her.


Well now it's I've got my, my mom, I've got my stepdad, I've got four step siblings. I've got my dad, I've got my step mom, I've got my two step siblings. I've got one of those step siblings, has a boyfriend with two kids. And then and then now I'm dating someone who's a family also in her own family of six. And I want to get them things. So, like, it's just it adds up so quick.


And I'm like, why did this? I don't want to spend any money. Can my president be that I don't have to get you a present, it cannot just be it. Anyway, I'm off my soapbox now anyway.


We're never off our soapbox, but we'll sit on the soapbox for now anyway.


It's sort of started it sounded a little bit like like a bummer and like me screaming at you about my own selfish needs. But guess what? I'm a Gemini and this is my podcast. So anyway, and we're also in a tornado, so leave us alone.


And like a bunch of cows keep running into me, OK? I feel like I'm not alone in that. I think other people will, you know.


Oh, no, I think we're we all get it, especially this year. So especially this year. Because now extra shipping costs me. Oh my. OK, well an extra negative dollars. Yeah.


So they're now Leah and Maggie like the dynamic duo and because Lizzie isn't having any of this and she already has made it very clear she doesn't want any of the spooky stuff happening around her, she's sitting in on their, their senses that they're doing for people and, you know, getting gifts from and and Lizzie is like heckling them during their own sentences, like her own mom and aunt, and is like, this isn't real. And then guess what Leah does.


Sends her away so no, sends her own kid away, and now it's just Lisa and Maggie, the Fox sisters, raking in the cash, this is getting dark. So Leah started claiming that the spirits also were helping her creatively, where they were giving her ideas for music because she was an avid piano player. And so the spirits would apparently use the same spelling technique of like equals one beagles two. But they would do it for like piano notes.


It would be like heart and soul, just like the same key you like. Doo doo doo doo doo doo tequila. And so they were basically spelling out different keys that that apparently she should do on the piano. And that was how she was writing her music, which is very good.


Now she's like Kris Jenner, but now she's also a little Sarah Winchester because that's how she was going to design ideas.


So I would argue that if I had to describe at least one of the Fox sisters, one of them is obviously Peggy Schuyler. The other is Kris Jenner meets Sarah Winchester, but make it musical.


Wow, what a story. The what an aesthetic that.


OK, so skeptic's start weighing in on the sciences. And first of all, they were like, why do the lights have to be so damn like?


It was kind of sketchy. And Leah, by the way, said that the lights had to be dark because the spirits they liked the dark and the light would drain their energy.


Sure, soon the spirits announced that they would no longer interact with Maggie and Leo without a real audience.


So now they're like, oh, my God. So now these spirits have a writer, apparently.


Yes. And so they have all these high demands. One of them specifically is that they need a published public exhibition. Oh, my God. And the town heard these demands. And Rochester offered Corinthian Hall, a.k.a., the largest venue in Rochester, and the Fox sisters started performing on stage live shows. Stop, you're right, this is just a little too weird, a little too weird, except I can't play piano very well.


So the one thing missing here, my my maestro or whatever I said.


Oh, yeah, your Mr. Joe, no one else knows what we're talking about, but I tried to call you my maestro.


When you play the piano one time and I spelled it wrong and it just I looked like, what's a maestro? And I was just an asshole about it. So I apologize.


No, whatever. My maestro once my maestro gets.


OK, so so on opening night, just so you know, Kate was too young to be on stage, so she wasn't even really invited to join the new Fox sisters, even though she was one of the original Fox sisters. And Leah and Maggie did the show without her. So Leah has really ripped the crown right off of Kate said seriously.


And 500 people came opening night and they made the equivalent to what is today. Eight thousand dollars. And that one night, OK. Oh, boy, big bucks.


The audience was in all. But they also many of them were skeptics. Apparently everyone in town, including religious zealots, people who were scared, people started freaking out. And so they were calling them a fraud. But sometimes it was just out of being afraid.


And so during their live shows, it became commonplace that there were fraud search committees done, not done either during or after the shows.


So like they were these at least one was a child and the other was Leah. And these audiences would request Wild Zaman's to like tests that they were being legitimates, like they would tie their ankles, are like lie them on the ground and pillows to make sure the sound was still coming from somewhere. And like they couldn't do their tricks, basically. Oh, my God, they would.


A lot of people thought, like, oh, one of them's cracking their knuckles. One of them is coughing, one of them is stomping their feet. And so they were trying all these little experiments live while also just trying to give you a show which like I understand, people were freaked out. But can you imagine if every single time we did a live show, people were like, now you have to bind your ankles and be upside down? And I'd be like, stop cracking.


You're not good for the show. Well, see, I was just thinking all the religious zealots that come to our live shows would for sure.


They're always in the front row, aren't they? So there was a few times where they had to literally, like, stand on glasses to make sure that they weren't channeling electricity because that was someone's theory. They a there was one time where they are, I guess it became a few times where they had their feet covered with pillows and then they were sitting on cushions so that their feet couldn't be moved. And if they were making sounds at their feet, it would be muffled.


And interestingly, whenever that was the experiment, they did that. No spirits showed up that night. But Leah would make a public statement later and say, oh, well, everyone was just in such a negative mood that it was it wasn't harmonious enough for the spirits to want to interact. So you were doing it. You ruined the energy in the room, the OK.


And at the same time, there was one guy named Andrew Jackson Davis. He later became known as John the Baptist of Spiritualism.


Yeah, he he heard of the Fox sisters and he thought that he had, like, predicted them like they were a prophecy, that he had published this book where he basically said, and I'm absolutely paraphrasing from his quote, because the quote sounds kind of like very flowery and it was hard to get through.


But basically he was saying that, you know, we as human beings have we are spirits that are inhabiting a body right now. And those spirits have the ability to communicate with spirits in the actual spiritual world right now.


So like some are inhabiting bodies on earth, some are up in the sky or whatever in some other dimension, and all of them have the ability to still communicate no matter what phase they're going through. And even though that's even though it's possible, it's currently very difficult. But one day there will be this day where this bridge and communication shows up and all the world will be at peace. And because now all of a sudden, all the spirits can communicate with each other.


And thank God that finally happened. Well, he says that he he wrote that down and then he thinks that day happened the first time that the Fox sisters heard knocking in their house.


OK, and he what's interesting about that is the same day that the Fox sister started hearing things in their house, he has a diary entry where apparently he wrote this about daylight this morning, a warm breathing passed over my face. And I heard a voice tender and strong saying, Brother, the good work has begun. Behold, a living demonstration is born. Oh, it's OK.


That's a little ookie like what it is. So when he. We heard that the girls were in Rochester, he was like, holy shit, I got to meet them. So he went to he invited them to his house right away. By the time he finally met them, though, Leah's talents had now grown even wider and further than Maggie's ever did. And she could now identify through knocking spirits dialects. And she could also now translate other languages into English.


Oh, my God.


So this Andrew Jackson Davis guy, he offered to help however he could, because, first of all, he thought that he was a prophet. And he also thought that he could be seen because it was so, so early in their story of the Fox sisters that he could make a name for himself as one of the founders of spiritualism. And so he wanted to, like, really get in there and do whatever he needed to. So Maggie Leah and Andrew Jackson Davis, they all decided that they were going to go on a literal nationwide tour instead of just staying at this one location, the current.


Why not? So instead of having like a home venue, they're now touring. Touring. So people came from all over. Apparently, Scientific American wrote a very not so pleasant article about them because of Scientific American. And they were like, this is not scientifically makes sense. One audience member was a famous opera singer in Sweden, and apparently she was convinced that they were legit because she saw Liza translate Swedish to her or something. And so because so because she was famous in Sweden, they now had famous European celebrity backing.


OK, so the news about these, the Fox sisters is now traveling to Europe. So they're getting like wide acclaim. Oh, yeah. Before they left to go on their official tour, they finished off their New York. Season, I don't know their time in New York by contacting by conducting sessions in a New York hotel, and they would do it three times a day for up to 30 attendees at a time. So those 90 people and they would do it for I guess like the ticket admission was one dollar, which in today's world is thirty three dollars.


So. Wow. Thirty three times ninety people a day. Gee, you know, and these people weren't just like anyone like it was like you had to really fight to get a ticket. They were sensational. So a lot of their clients or their audience members happen to be really famous people. Now one of them was P.T. Barnum.


Oh, there was also the poet William Cullen Bryant and then the editor for the New York Tribune, Horace Greeley, who actually like really like had a liking to them and even offered them like housing in his mansion.


He offered them free education. And then Leah told them that they couldn't take the education because they had to go on tour and they couldn't quit like the family business. Oh, my God.


Yeah, but Kate can do it. She's still in school, apparently for the rest of her life. Exactly. Oh, yeah. Well, Kate, I think she was like, I already got you out of this picture. So nice try, Kate.


Apparently another one was a William Lloyd Garrison, who he witnessed this is a quote. He, quote, witnessed a session in which the spirits wrapped in time to a popular song and spelled out a message. And the message was, spiritualism will work miracles and the cause of reform. So now they're like, basically this tour is also becoming like a PR campaign for spiritualism, because now people are getting to see these wild messages from beyond the grave about how great spiritualism is.


And also, they like they're relevant, too, because they know all the popular songs.


So because they're like now rapping to like music, they're rapping actually to bottoms up, right?


Yeah, they're bottoms up.


And also, apparently, one of the most popular songs that came out that year was like, oh, Susannah.


So like so oh my God, my Darling Clementine remix with Bottoms Up would be quite a hit. That would be.


I don't even know how you could actually know what I bet you could do it because remember when the twenty twenty new year came and we had. Oh yes.


The New Year's Eve party and I found that you had The Great Gatsby like mixed with modern. Yeah.


They had there was a playlist where there was twenty versions of popular songs. It's like I'm sure you could do like Oh I'm sure I'm eighteen forties music to like today's music if you really wanted to. So anyway that now it's you know, people are hearing about spiritualism from the spirits themselves. So it's like quite a marketing plan around this time. Kate was now finally out of school and old enough to join them.


And so they're getting the band back together. And so Kate, Leah and Maggie are now a threesome and they're known as the Fox sisters officially. I see. So Leah chose to stay in New York at this point. And so Kate and Maggie could go on tour. And I don't know why Leah stepped away. I mean, I don't really know that part, but Kate and Maggie went on tour, so it was almost like the OGF sisters were on tour now.


And they went to I really feel like they're booking agent happened to be Andrew Russell because they got out after they went to Cleveland, Cincinnati, Columbus, St. Louis, DC and Philly.


Oh, my God. That is like our run. Yeah. So soon, though, very quickly. The reason there was only that many cities is because they were getting fucking harassed by oh, so many skeptics. Again, zealots all across the country now who are coming to see them and judge them or call them blasphemous or say the devil is in them. One time Maggie even got kidnapped. I don't know no more of that story, but I feel like I want to know more that she survived the I guess that's the most important part.


The sisters decided it was all not worth it anymore because it was too intense. So during their last show, they spelled out, quote, as if the spirits were doing this. They spelled out. And where we will now bid you farewell and that was the last thing that they ever translated for people, and then they left.


Two weeks later, though, Leah heard about this and heard that they canceled their own tours and they were like out of the game.


I love that it takes two weeks for that news to reach another goddamn pamphlet or pigeon or something. So Leah heard that her sisters gave up and she went to the public and made a statement saying, no, no, no, the show will go on like this. She was like, I just because I left physically doesn't mean I'm not still.


Their manager goes, can't decide to quit. Apparently not them. No. So Leah thought that they were too integral at this point in spiritualism because all of a sudden now was a movement and people are really starting to pick up on it right where the center of this movement is.


She was basically like, you're the poster children for this. So like you can't back out or it's going to look really bad for a lot of spiritualists. Oh, my God.


So Leah basically said, like, you can't just walk away. But soon, spiritualism was booming. The Fox sisters weren't the only people with this gift all of a sudden. And they very quickly fell from fame. They were no longer serious relevance. Everyone all of a sudden was a medium. And so two hundred years prior to this, though, like let's not take away from the fact that they would have literally been burned at the stake and now people are paying hundreds of dollars to see them.


So, like, it's a good point. It's one dimension that so in 1850, which was right around this time, the New Haven Journal reported that 40 families in upstate New York claimed to have the same powers as the Fox sisters. And then only a year later in New York, there were over a hundred people who made this claim. So like within a twenty four month period, the Fox sisters went from being the only people who could speak to spirits to like being very small fish and oh my gosh, are very small foxes, I guess at this point.


Fish. So fun fact. There was ample evidence this whole time early on to the Fox sisters were frauds. One is that it was shocking how many famous people came forward, specifically Ben Franklin. Like to talk to them a lot. OK, but like I guess people notice that Ben Franklin was a pretty shitty speller and didn't know his grammar anymore. And one time a witness called them out and said, like, why can't Ben Franklin get it together?


And Maggie apparently stormed out in the middle of a session or Leah stormed out in the middle of a session and said, oh, well, I never understood grammar or something. So implied, like she was the one who doing it.


The smooth lady also, you know, just as many famous ghosts would show as no ghosts at all, depending on their mood. So, like, if they weren't feeling it that day, all of a sudden the spirits, like, couldn't show up, especially if their demands weren't being met. Leah was also allegedly known to try to get information out of witnesses before the show started.


Like, how do you speak Swedish again? Oh, what's your favorite sentence from. And that's in Swedish.


Oh, and as the three sisters grew older, this could be nothing at all. But a lot of people speculate. All three of them ended up having really severe drinking problems.


And so a lot of people try to associate that with like the guilt of lying to the entire world. And at a few shows, like I said, cushions were placed between their feet and floor. And those shows always happen to be silent. Near the end of their sentences, they started becoming more elaborate, like objects started moving, tables were levitating. You could see shadows and apparitions and shit. And a lot of people have argued like, oh, all of a sudden they had competition and needed to up their ante.


And so they were like probably learning new tricks just to stay relevant. But so this ends up being kind of bad ass. And eighteen, eighty five, I guess the first wave of spiritualism was dying down, so maybe they just had nothing left to lose. But Maggie was fucking over it. Oh. And she, I don't know how she did this or why this was the route she took but it's very intentional. She took to the stage at the New York Academy of Music and then she got on stage in front of everybody, took off her shoes and cracked her feet.


Knuckles. Yep. And she knew it.


And it was identical to the sounds of the wrappings that people had heard. And so once she had shown everyone exactly what was happening, this was what she said on stage. I have been deeply instrumental in perpetuating the prod of spiritualism upon a two confiding public. The greatest sorrow in my life has been that this is true and that though it has come late in my day, I am now prepared to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.


So help me God. I am here tonight as one of the founders of spiritualism to denounce it as an absolute falsehood from beginning to end as the flimsy. Of superstitions and the most wicked of blasphemy known to the world, so like really like hitting it out of the park on that.


Did she spell that out with her feet knuckles? She just tap danced everywhere, her little toenails like click clacked.


So Maggie also in Maggie also said when we went to bed at night, we used to tie an apple to a string and move the string up and down, causing the apple to bump on the floor. Or we would drop the apple on the floor, making a strange noise every time it would rebound. Mother, listen to this. For a time she would not understand it and did not suspect us as being capable of a trick because we were so young.


Some people actually think that all of this really started like they just got in over their heads and it was originally just supposed to be like a funny neighborhood April Fools prank because it was March thirty first.


Oh, that's right. So people think like they were just trying to, like, play a joke on the neighbors and it just got out of hand.


So like within 12 days they had to leave their house because they talk about, like a cautionary tale. Man, don't you dare play with apples and strings.


I tell you once, I'll tell you every time you know what happens to kids who play with apples. So so allegedly, this is where I say Leah's husband left her with no money and then she had this daughter. So she a lot of people think that this is why Leah, like all of a sudden became so hell bent on, like, running the show because she saw a real potential for income when she needed it, most understandably. And I mean, I can understand, like, if you're like a mom, that you need to, like, raise this kid and you have no money, especially in the forties, that's all.


Yeah. You know, so I think that's probably how this happened. And when she was visiting her, her sisters, they maybe confided in her like, don't tell mom and dad, but this is what we're doing. And she probably blackmailed them into letting her join.


Why so spiritualised felt betrayed by Maggie. But many of them didn't feel betrayed. They were very defensive and said like, oh, she's just like, quote, a washed up drunk. And like she's just like she's not relevant anymore. She had like she lost all of our money. She's just complaining and trying to make spiritualism look bad. But apparently one source said that she that Maggie later recanted, saying that she did it to spite Leah. But not many people believe that.


They think that she was pretty darn serious when she booked a whole venue. She ended up marrying a very famous Arctic explorer named Alicia Kent Cain. But the family didn't approve because Maggie obviously looked a little Looney Tunes and so they never legally wed. Kate continued in part time mediumship and eventually her son for Ferdinand Ferdinand Dam. I can't say that word. He also became a medium starting at the age of three. So I don't know that poor kid sounds like he was influenced.


She's a stage mom and a half she Toddlers and Tiaras.


Am I right about toddlers and ectoplasmic dances and activism, apparently the like. She knew when he was three that he had the gift because spirits would possess him and he would have an unearthly glow come out of his eyes. Yeah.


Oh, God, no, no, no, no. Anyway, sad story. It becomes a worse story, arguably all due in some way to their heavy drinking. They all died very early in life. Leah died in 1890 and she was the oldest. She died first. Maggie died two years later at only 59, and Kate died a year later at 56. The this is a fun fact. The original table that the Fox sisters used on tour is now at the Rochester Historical Society.


According to Atlas Obscura, the table, as you can see in pictures, was custom built to make the wrapping sounds. You just couldn't see it from off the stage. Quote, Within the enclosed top of the table lies a spring connected to a long metal rod. And when push, the rod hits the inside of the table, creating the wrapping sound. And as for the body remains, I think in those were probably planted as part of the April Fool's joke, the ones that were found in the cellar.


Oh, yeah, yeah. First talking to the ghost and the Fox family's property where this all started is now Hitsville Memorial Park in Newark, New York. And apparently the park offers, like you can see, like I think if I saw one picture and I'm kind of going completely off that, but I think they still have the foundation of the house built into the ground. And they they do a haunted history trail tour.


So if anything, the Fox sisters, they did if this was just all accidentally like an April Fool's joke and they made. Spiritualism, they, at least, if anything, set the standard for what types of communication to expect during paranormal interaction, even today, I mean, you hear knocking all the time and spooky TV shows and things. Yeah, it's usually the people's first go to. If you're here, can you knock on something or bang on something?


We still see knocking in spirit sessions and general evidence of hauntings today. And because of the Fox sisters, American spiritualism is still credited to, at least to many people, to have begun on March thirty first, which means that spiritualism isn't Herries. So and it wouldn't be.


There would be, wouldn't it? She would be in spiritualism.


And my mother. And your stepmother, right? Yeah. Linda Ellen and spiritualism.


The original filesystems and the original Favazza, the Fox sisters. Wow. That was. Wow. I'm so sorry.


What a tale though. I mean, I can do that with my knuckle it with my feet. Are you serious.


Yeah. Oh I, you can't. I don't think I've tried. I do like this freakishly long toes so I'm sure I could probably like do a little crack and if I wanted to but it's like a specific thing. I remember learning it when I was little because the sky is not your toes. Sort of.


It's like you're going like I don't know, I don't want to show you. I mean I'll show you someday. Not on camera, please.


But I'm aware that feet have like the most bones in any part of the human body. But in my mind the foot is just one like oval shaped bow. And so when people are like, oh, I can crack it, I'm like, you should not be able to. It should be like it's not lacking it.


It's like you hit it on the floor. I still cannot do that here, let I see it. Oh, my God. I'm on it. On today's episode, we have one of the Fox sisters performing her famous toe crackle. Unfortunately, I'm on carpets as I work hanging.


Oh, I heard it. That was enough for me. Oh, my God. So if that was on that was on Kharif if it's on, whether you can hear it. Can you imagine having to do that enough times to spell out there will be Rozner?


And I was like, why didn't they name him Aardvark? Can you imagine. How old are you, Charles? Thirty one do that. Thirty one times, Christine.


OK, I would be like again, like I'm an infant. I'm one. Don't worry about it.


But yeah, I remember my like one of my whatever this says my stepdad, when I was growing up we'd be in an elevator and he would do that and people would be like, what does that knockings you could do it in your shoes.


Yes. And so that's what he would do. And I remember he he was like, yeah, you can do that. And so then I learned to do it with my foot as so I maybe I'm reincarnated.


I'm pretty sure you're one of the Fox sisters. You're definitely you're definitely fuckin Leah too, I can tell.


No, I, I, I guess you're right, Maggie, because she's the one who is doing all the foot cracking, but OK. Wow.


So I mean, I know I'm wrong anatomically, but as someone who refuses to believe the foot is anything other than a one long plate of bone, that's so creepy to me that you're saying that the fact that I think it's just like cracking in half on the ground inside, it's so it's all wrong.


But it's I, I don't know what's better. I hate this. Let's move on.


It's all that I don't like love feet so it's not great.


I would I would have video later not to be like, can you send me a video of your feet. But like I but to totally be like can you send me can you send me a very close up version of this? Because I need to see what the fuck happened.


It sounds like you broke your foot. Like it's so funny because you said that. And I was like, wait a second. I used to be able to do that. And so the whole time you were talking, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm doing it again.


Oh, anyway, that's a skill I only want to see for science purposes and then never from far away. And I completely forget I want you to like, clonk me in the head after I see the video you send me so I can figure like, oh boy, what a tale.


Anyway, I have a tale for you and it's also twisty turn.


So it is the story of Phoebe Henjak.


I don't know if I'm pronouncing her last name right. It's a Norwegian name, I believe Henjak. OK, cool. It takes place in Australia, though. So this is a murder mystery.


Oh, you know, I love a good question mark.


Yes, it's a creepy one. And this is I actually heard it for the first time ever on Crime Junkie a long time ago, like, I don't know, maybe sometime last year.


And I had, like, had it in my head and I was like, it's Phoebe something. And then I eventually was like, I need to, like, learn more about this. So I went back and found the name. So credit to them for where I first heard it.


And there is a podcast called Phoebes Fall from twenty sixteen that basically like goes really in-depth. It's like a six episode podcast series. So both of those are where like this this intel comes from.


I always feel bad when there's a story that literally can span multiple hours of episodes and like I want to do my best in my research, but there's just no way it's going to happen.


No, completely. It's like when I do, I did the Zodiac. I'm like, here's a twenty minute version of this. Yeah. I've listened to like eighty five episodes of professionals talking about that.


At that point you might as well just do like here's my seven part episode of the.


Oh Man. All right.


So on Thursday, December 2nd, 2010, a concierge of a luxury high rise apartment in Melbourne, Australia, Melbourne, Melbourne, named Beth was heading to the apartments, apartment buildings, garbage room to find a broom.


So when she turned the key, she tried to open the door, but it got jammed like it was blocked by something. So she appeared in and saw what looked like a mannequin. Good night.


OK, ok. Hmm.


OK. I think it was on my Fairbrother where they said it's never a mannequin. I think it was from Emma. Yeah, just sure.


But it's a great quote. Take out the part that says it can. It's a man it's just amazing.


Or a woman in this case.


So she thought it was a mannequin until she saw a large pool of blood.


It was the body of 24 year old Phoebe Henjak, who was a tenant at the Balenciaga apartment, which is the building that they were in.


So after the discovery of Phoebe's body and the arrival of police, it was pretty soon deduced that Phoebe had fallen 12 floors through the trash chute, holy fuck into the garbage room, and this was 40 metres or thirty one feet.


So she had fallen twelve storeys. Wow. The trash chute into the garbage room. I'm shocked.


This is the first time I'm hearing a story two hundred times now where it took someone to because I always thought I guess not always, but in my head when I was little, I always I thought there was like a horror movie trope where people got. Thrown down chutes like laundry shoes are like, yeah, it seems maybe we just invented this seemed like something terrifying because I had the same thought that was in the same part of my brain with like, oh, the zebra stripe gum is actually a is about to say that again, we were like trying to tattoo ourselves with trash.


So like, who knows, literal trash. Oh, boy.


So they figured out like she had fallen through this trash and they found her body with bruising on her neck, wrist and upper right arm. So that's important for later, OK.


And they had figured out that she had fallen alive, cut her foot on the trash compactor to speak of feet to the point that it was nearly severed. And then she bled out while crawling, looking for an exit.


Oh, see, like you always hope the like before they hit the trash chute, they died instantly. Death like they I don't know. But apparently so.


But so the whole experience of mental torture was also involved.


Got it. Yes, exactly. So basically it was a dark room and they could basically figure out that after she had almost severed her foot, like she was trying to find an exit and bled out in about five to 10 minutes during that time. Yeah, it was horrible.


So they went to her apartment, obviously upstairs and in the apartment, they found broken glass on the floor and blood on the cushion and computer keyboard of all, just a little amount.


But it was definitely fresh blood. The coroner, Peter White, considered briefly the possibility of murder, but quickly ruled that Phoebe had intentionally climbed into the chute herself while on drugs and alcohol, not intending to die by suicide.


But it was just a tragic accident.


So I think she I mean, this sounds like a murder or a tragic accident. It sounds like someone threw her down a fucking chute.


Like, I think someone climbs in there like this is a paragraph. Was it many paragraphs of nonsense?


This is oh, it's just something like a bunch of paragraphs or whatever. This is the first of a bunch of paragraphs. So the story is not over.


Let's just put it there and actually not cut her foot. She probably would have survived, it sounds like.


I think it was, yeah. Potentially. If she was, you want to blow it out, she would just landed.


Yeah, that's a good point, too. Exactly.


So basically, the coroner says, oh, she intentionally climbed into the trash chute and died because she was on drugs and alcohol.


So that's where they landed. So Phoebe's friends, I'm just going to tell you, like, rewind a little bit. So Phoebe herself, her friends remember her as having she's like a very memorable person. So her friend Alicia Carvell remembers, quote, When we used to go out, she would walk into the room and there were cat eyes. And you can just see everyone turn their eyes to see her. And her friend Hazel Brown said that she was so beautiful and was very creative in a private way through journals and drawing.


So apparently I know she seemed like a lovely person. So these two women went to school with her in Melbourne and remembered her as having a very adventurous spirit. So this story, I think, is very fitting to describe her personality, Alisha recalls. I got her an interview for McDonald's and she got the job. She had her first shift, which went OK. Then she had her second shift and she didn't like it anymore.


And when you when you. That's Gemini, Gemini.


And when you leave, you have to return your uniform. So she took off her uniform, left it in the ice room, left through the back door and ran home in her underwear. I like. So that's just I do too.


I was like, OK, I get it. Like she spent say no more.


Yeah. She's got hutzpah I think.


Yeah. As, as they say it's grandma or grandma would say. So she had somewhat of a reckless spirit. Some of her friends said when they were 13 they already started going out to clubs and Phoebe began consuming copious amounts of alcohol and started testing drugs.


And her mom said that this changed her and amplified her, quote, sensitive, mercurial personality. So she said when she started drinking and doing drugs, like, it really messed with her because she was such a sensitive person. And she had also been on antidepressants since she was 16. So she had like an interesting relationship with substances that her family often, like, had to check in on and were worried about.


And what year was this again that she does this 2010? Oh, this is much 2010. More recent than I thought.


OK, yeah. It's like, yeah, it's less than ten. Oh, now. Exactly ten years ago this week out.


So yeah. OK, creepy.


So the family, her family was very close. She grew up with parents Natalie and Lyn and her brothers names were Nicola and Tom. She was really active. She would spend eight hours at the gym at a time. I mean, same you and I can both relate to that every second.


I'm actually have to get going. So it's actually I'm in it, can't you see I'm on the treadmill, all right, I'm doing a moment. You can tell this is a fake leg. I'm actually doing a squat, just one squat this whole time.


Oh, are you actually cracking my feet on the floor? You know, over again? That's my workout.


I can confirm because I heard it with my stupid ears, my ears that failed me. They should have shut off in that moment, too, for the ears.


OK, so let's see. So anyway, she's very active. She trained and studied karate as well as kickboxing. She was known to be, quote, deadly with her kicks. And I know she was apparently fast tracked to get a black belt in two years and it usually takes five.


So it's she was just kicking ass, let's just put it like God.


But despite her athleticism, the big, huge question mark about this case was how on earth did she get into this garbage chute? I'm saying, yeah.


So to have ended up in the garbage room, the coroner suggested that Phoebe climbed herself into this hatch and lowered herself into the drop.


And the coroner, Peter White, said, quote, Phoebe's long term enthusiasm for climbing and pension for undertaking physically challenging activity was a factor in this event.


And that's how he explained that she got herself into the trash chute, which like I mean, if it's a story about like, you know, alcohol and drugs, it's like, what a sad way to go.


But also, like, I understand I understand it a little bit because my first thought is like, OK, a trash shoot is just such a fine, gross way.


I'm just like a germ freak. But I mean, like I think of my hometown friends and like, wow, there was nothing drunk. Deirdra love to do in high school more than like climb to the top of a building. So I guess. Right, right, right. Trying to like for the sake of the story, like have some weird little adventure but like doing something dangerous. Yeah.


I'd like but the shoot that's a that's a real brave one. Like let's. Yeah. Because that one just like beyond my my understanding I'm going to need a little more explanation I guess.


Yeah. Like, like what was the goal. What was the goal. Yeah. What was the end goal here. So Phoebe's family understandably couldn't wrap their heads around the coroner's explanation. So Phoebe's grandfather, he becomes like the central figure of the story. His name is Lauren Campbell, and he was a retired detective.


And so when he found the story out about his granddaughter and like what the coroner had said and that they ruled that it was just an accident, he basically stepped up and was like, I'm going to do my own experiments to figure out if this is even possible.


OK, good. So the. Yeah, exactly.


He kind of stepped up and like was the only one kind of representing her, like this client called bullshit or like at least.


Yeah, yeah. It's like what's going on here, who like did something about it. So it's a galvanized steel chute.


And if you can imagine, it's sort of like I mean I've had different apartment buildings with different trash shoots, but it's basically one of the kind that you pull like a draw. It's like we it on.


That's the one we have at our apartment. It's like it looks like an oven, basically.


Like, yes, exactly. So until this door down and then you throw things down and then you close the door back up. Yes, exactly.


And then crime junkie Brit described it as like a library drop off. Yeah. Well, I guess you don't read many books.


You say that's your hair. So maybe maybe I'll say it. Trust me, I know enough about it. I know what an oven looks like. Yeah. Yeah.


So it's kind of like an accordion style but and it, it's, it closes by itself. Like once you let go of it it's like on a spring.


Yeah. Yes exactly. It's like spring loaded basically.


So this trash shoe is about five hundred and thirty millimeters wide which is about 20 inches wide. OK, so I've heard various 18 to 20 inches wide.


So I mean that's like a foot and a half.




Like not very wide and it was six feet above the ground. So six feet above the ground. Yes, like the opening to the dumpster. I think the opening to the top was six feet off the ground. OK, got it.


So basically she would have had to climb and basically be upside down by the time she got in there to get in there. Right. Assuming the spring didn't like close up on her legs.


Yes. However, since she fell on her foot, it was determined she went down feet first. Oh. So she must have gone in.


So she almost like got her foot in, like, hoist herself up and then kind of sat and tried to, like, almost go sledding down on her. But yes.


So the only way it could have happened is if she had climbed up and gone. Yeah. Feet first.


Like it like a water slide like this. Like the world's worst water, like instead of water to get to make it all slippery.


It's trash and steal. It's banana peels.


Yes. Yikes.


So while Lauren wasn't saying her grandfather, he wasn't saying like, oh, it's impossible to put a person here. But he was saying like, how would Phoebe have climbed in herself?


She was a small woman. However, he was like, I'm skeptical of this. So what he did is he gathered two of Phoebe's friends who had like similar really small stature and were pretty athletic to test out how she could have climbed into this chute. So you can see this online.


So basically they have like a harness on so that they don't actually fall in.




But he's basically he's basically testing like, can you lift yourself up six feet into this tiny little pocket, like, see if you can do it.


And so there's videos of it and they're they're really trying and technically, OK, so she would have, like I said, have to open the hatch, climb in while attempting to like, grip the wall or some.


Right. There's not like a handle, you know, inside the chute.


So trying to grip the wall or something and slide in and then see it yourself, like you said, as if like a sled or a water slide or something, and then lower yourself in that way so you can watch the demonstration online. But there are two women and you can see them with, like, immense difficulty, try to get themselves into the chute and they do eventually.


But it is not easy. And they have to balance themselves against the wall. And basically because of the angle of like, you have to go from top down, you have to balance yourself on the wall, like there's no way you could get in without touching anything.




OK, do they find fingerprints on the walls and stuff? So sorry, this is litter. No, this is literally my next bullet. On the day of Phoebe's death, not one fingerprint was found on the trash chute or the surrounding walls.


Yeah, unless you're like fucking Spiderman, you can't just like. Yeah. Or like an Olympian like box jumper or something. Like you can't just like get from the ground to six feet up without your hands helping you in some way.


Want something somebody would have had to open the chute to, you know. And so what I'm thinking and they're like, well so but then I'm thinking if there were no fingerprints to like, somebody had to wipe it down.


Right, because. Right. Yeah. Other people are using it for trash. Right. So like you imagine somebody had has touched this thing, right.


Yeah. I'll check it out. I don't know. In my mind I'm like, yeah. Like someone would have had to go selfish, come back for cleanup and it would have to be more than like the apartment complex janitor, like, you know.


Yeah, but I well, what I'm saying is, like, even if she did it herself, like, wouldn't somebody else have used this trash chute ever to the point that, like a finger.


Got it. Got it. Got it. Got it. You know what I mean. Like, it's just weird to me that there were literally no like if we tested our trash chutes, I'm sure there would be plenty of grocery coronavirus on it.


Yeah. Yeah, no, no Fairpoint.


So, yeah, it just feels like someone like bleach the whole thing down to me.


I'm like weirded out and I guess I did hear that like on galvanized steel, it's hard to leave fingerprints, but even on the wall there were no fingerprints. So yeah, either somebody had to like be really stealth about it or somebody was.


Only thing I can think of is like if you brought tools with you that were also small enough to fit down there. But then like I guess you could like I'm thinking like if she brought a weight to hold the door open while she climbed inside, but then you'd also have to like I mean, there's no way to, like, balance yourself on that while you sit yourself down without touching the wall.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pretty much.


So it was know, maybe she was like kind of like doing a little balancing act, right. Broom Well.


Oh the broom was in the garbage room downstairs like the lady wants to go get the broom.


So like she hadn't she was about to be down the broom but I don't. Yeah. Yes exactly. OK, I don't know. I don't know. I know it's very bizarre.


And so basically it proved impossible in their experiments to do this without leaving any fingerprints by yourself anyway.


And if she had used her hands or if somebody had to their hands to wipe them away, essentially. Yeah. So they do this testing on the original on the actual shoot where she went down and the. Are able to figure out, like, how somebody might be able to get into the chute, but then they are thinking, OK, well, now we should see what he wants to figure out about the actual drop itself.


And he's not about to drop her friends down the chute. So they know.


Exactly. And so instead, what they do. Is he contacts the company who made the steel hatch and he has them build a replica to see how far, like the the testers, the guinea pigs can get into the chute.


Wow. This person is really dedicated and I appreciate it.


Yeah, he's not stopping at anything, basically. So they are figure out that it is possible, but very difficult to get into the trash chute alone.


And so what he does is he conducts an experiment where a male demonstrator carries a female demonstrator who is pretending to be unconscious.


Oh, smart. See like how that would work. And it's actually really creepy to watch because this woman is like splayed out that way. I mean, really. Yeah. Like dead weight and he's trying to, like, hoist her. And it's very disturbing, honestly, to watch.


So in this context, the man is able to place her into the hatch with more ease and she doesn't touch the hatch like she would have if she were by herself.


So that requires no none of her fingerprints to be around the wall or anything on it.


So Lauren is starting to think like maybe this is what happened.


Maybe this is not accidental. Like they apparently thought. There is one other possible explanation, which is that she was put in the chute by someone else. So Lauren starts to get kind of stuck on this theory.


And what he discerned from his experiment is that it's easier, easier for someone to dispose of, say, you know, a body type like Phoebes, a woman like Phoebe, than it would be for her to climb in herself.


It would just like I feel like he didn't need any of those experiments to know. Yeah, but I'm glad we have the data now. But but apparently he did because nobody believed him. So once she did the experiment, I know it's really it's really fucked up.


So he was like, great, just like I expected or just like I suspected. This is not just an easy feat for her to, like, hop on in and write, you know, tossed herself down the trash chute.


So on the day of Phoebe's death, I have like a little timeline here, according to Phoebe's partner, her boyfriend. And so I think his full name is Anthony, but he goes by Aunt Hample and he and Phoebe lived together. So he according to him, he had left for work at eight thirty in the morning and she was still sleeping with their dog, Yoshi, and she had been recovering from a drinking what he called a bender from earlier that week.


So at 45 a.m., she sent an email and used her computer. At eleven three. There was a fire alarm in the building. Like a drill, pretty much. OK, and you can see the CCTV footage where Phoebe leaves the apartment with the dog as part of the fire drill.


So that is actually the last time she's ever seen O- on footage.


Did they see her go back up to her apartment or just leave the apartment for the day? I believe it was just a while.


So while this video is going on, you can actually see her with the dog and you actually see her kind of like stumble against a wall.




Which some people say like, oh, well, maybe she's drunk or sober. Yeah. Or but she also has. A dog, so it's like maybe she just got pulled or tripped or. Who knows? I could. I would. And my thought would be was that if she had just come back from drinking and now there's like this allowed ASLAV maybe like she fell over from, like, the hangover sound of it or something.


Yeah, well, that was when she was already outside. So she had left the building with the dog. Oh OK.


I was thinking say I'm going down the hallway or something. No.


Yeah. Like outside you can kind of see I think it's outside. I haven't seen that video. I've only seen a still shot of her leaving the building with the dog. So I'm not sure if it's outside or inside either way.


If she was falling. Yes, yes. She had to hit a wall at some point or like kind of stumbled essentially. She stumbled a little bit. Got it.


So as a person who drinks and as a person who's very clumsy, I stumble whether or not I'm drinking.


So I can't confirm it necessarily. Yeah, it's like it's not necessarily proof, you know what I mean?


Like, yeah, you can point to it and say, like, I bet she's drunk, but like there's just no proof of that. Sure. From the video itself. So there is a picture of her returning into the building at eleven fifty.


So she does go back inside. Oh OK. That's after. Yeah. And she uses the computer again. So that's just further proof that she made it like not only inside but back to her apartment.


And are you currently doing daily life things instead of. Yes exactly. Yuck.


Just like normal day to day stuff. So at eleven fifty, which is seven minutes after the alarm, you can see you're going back into the building and as soon as she gets back into her apartment, she uses her computer again. And this is like around noon ish, like a little before noon. So basically sometime between noon and 7:00 p.m. she goes into this shoot oh noon and 7:00 p.m. That's a wide gap.


That is a wide gap. Yes.


So and they don't have any cameras on the on the dumpster or anything. Oh, I'll tell you. OK, it gets infuriating them. Well, it's already there because nobody chose to use common sense that it's easier for someone to get thrown down a shoot than climb into a shoot. Yeah.


And and honestly, the common sense just gets less common and more scarce. So. OK, got it. Don't worry, I'm prepared.


So there's not like too much activity that day that kind of points to anything leading up to her death. But if you go back a little ways longer, there's some odd activity that has occurred. So I'm just going to tell you, like leading up to the day of her death, some of the stuff that was happening. So Phoebe had moved into this apartment with ants earlier that year, earlier in 2010.


And previously she had dated mostly kind of like grungy like musician types. OK, but aunt was kind of this like classier older guy. He was in his early forties and she was twenty four. So there was like a substantial age gap between them. Sure. And they had met in 2009. She was working at a high market hair salon and he was an event's promoter with clients like Kylie Minogue, Paris Hilton and AC DC.


Oh OK. And so he was like kind of swanky and her family actually really liked him.


He helped Phoebe's brother get a job, but at the same time, they kind of had a feeling that this relationship wasn't forever, OK?


They just they were like, yeah, we like him, OK, or we like him. Mr. Right. But not Mr. Right now, but not Mr. Mr. Right Now. Except I am. I couldn't have said it better myself.


Look, well, there's nothing I'm better at than relationship labels then gossiping about relationships and finding ways to beat around the bush.


Yeah, that's exactly my forte.


Oh boy. So according to Phoebe's mom, Natalie, what she found strange is that although Phoebe had lived in the apartment for nearly a year before her death, there was little to show her presence anywhere in the apartment.


Hmm. So, as you know, I like to just leave trash piles of my belongings. Sure. I go, whether it's your house, my house, the the ground on our house, our house, our shared house, our haven of our affair.


Emotional affair.


Yeah, I love it. We're like, we're going to call TMZ and be like, guess what?


And they're like, we don't. We should do like some home alone like that, like cut out posters like do like some Sharda and like call like Worldstar or like TMZ and just have them just Snoop, who knows what's going on. But it's knows it's just an anonymous tip. You know why I'm not saying it's it's us. Here's my exact name and how you spell it and pronounce it for TV. But I mean it could be someone else and don't pronounce it wrong, please.


Oh boy. So yeah, it was just weird. OK, speaking of like as somebody who literally can't like I don't even want to turn the computer's horrifying, like, just like I leave stuff everywhere, but like she just didn't have stuff like in the apartment.


There were a couple photos of her an aunt, but all her stuff were still in storage downstairs. So it was just. Odd, like it fell off because she had lived there almost a year, so that's why it feels a little cold, like she's. Yeah, she almost like she has a plan to leave. Yeah.


Like one foot out the door, almost. Yes, exactly. Like she's not as I like to beat around the bush as well. And that's why and that's what I love is.


Yeah. It feels like she's like kind of already planning to not get comfy there.


Yes, exactly. Nothing felt comfy about it.


So Phoebe had actually told her mom that the relationship was fraying and was getting more volatile and she was worried it was going to pop the question on their upcoming trip to Paris that Christmas.


And remember, this took place December of 2010, like early December.


So she confided in her family, including her mom, her grandmother and her brother, Tom, about her relationship. She said aunt was kind of controlling and she felt like she was losing her voice.


And remember, this is someone who her friends described as like reckless and like not necessarily in a bad way, but just that was her.


You know, she was just kind of it sounds like she was I mean, it sounds like at least in her relationship, if it matches her personality, she's probably a little like flighty and didn't want to settle, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.


It's almost like she was feeling stifled. Yeah, yeah, exactly. She felt like she couldn't like be herself.


And while all together with Phoebe actually cut her hair dramatically, like really short and didit black.


And you can see this in the CCTV footage of her during the fire drill. And according to Phoebe's grandmother, she basically looked like the spitting image of aunt's sister, Christina. And she saw this is like an indication that she was just trying to, like, fit into this mold front and like kind of fit what he wanted.


And so she, like, changed her appearance. And it was like a dramatic change. Like she didn't have short hair. Her hair was not black. Right. So it was just like a very sudden change.


And her family was like, oh, she looks a lot like his sister.


Maybe she's trying to, like, emulate that.


I mean, I would have taken that as kind of like a red herring of sorts of being, like if she is still like adventurous and reckless, like she strikes me as someone you would like, go get green hair for no reason who would cut her hair.


And she worked at a hair salon. So it's like maybe I don't think it's that we're friends, was in training and they needed to do a good job.


You know, I've always wished I had a friend like that.


I I was always afraid someone was going to ask me because, like, I'm I'm not that I'm particular about my hair. Like, I don't care as long as it doesn't look terrible. I don't care what it looks like, but I'm terrified the one time someone like needed to practice, I would like have a massive chunk of hair missing, like, oh, see, that just happens.


I mean, I, you know, my bald spot, I like I never like what my hair looks like ever under any circumstance. So to me I'm like, listen, try away.


If you find some miracle where it looks good, then like, yeah, my hair.


Well that's very kind. Thank you. I don't love it. But, you know, that's a story for another day anyway.


So she had dyed her hair, yada, yada, and her family was like, yeah, she seemed like she was not herself anymore.


So in October of 2010, this was two years prior to her death, Phoebe had had a big argument with aunts.


And Natalie, Phoebe's mom remembers that Phoebe was saying aunt was getting more and more aggressive. She felt like she wasn't able to assert herself in the relationship.


And she actually traveled after this argument to Mallacoota, which is a town in Australia, to see Ginnette, her grandmother.


I just love Grandma Janet. I just I don't even know her, but I love her.


Reminds me of Grandma Pam Fathman.


Grandma Jean, that would be quite a duo, the Fox sisters, to point out. Oh, I love that.


According to GeoNet, Phoebe had somewhat made up her mind that she was going to stay in Mallacoota. She had even lined up a summer job. Remember October? There is like spring time.


Oh, that season was not even Australia. Thank you.


Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like summer job. OK, that's ok. Yeah. Well I was just because it was you and I just have blind loyalty. I was like that makes sense but yeah. Yeah now I'm picking it up. But there was a reason for that. Yeah.


Yeah it's it's December. It's October at this point. But she's like I'm going to pick up a summer job at a golf course here where my grandma lives. And Janet was like, I think Phoebe wanted to break up with him, but she was encouraging him, her to go back and do it in person rather than pull a Christine and just like send an awkward text and be like any way by which is how I do this.


So I feel like the least confrontational person ever.


Don't worry, I'm working on it therapy. OK, so Phoebe took her grandmother's advice, went to Melbourne, went back home to Melbourne, but they didn't break up.


So I don't know if they just rectified things, they got back together or, you know, they never actually split.


But Phoebe's behaviour got even more unexplainable.


So this is an email that Phoebe had written to her mom, Natalie, around this time, I'm just going to read it.


I've been thinking about my birthday present, and I'd like you to hang on to that. For me, the. There may be a time in my life where I need to get away without much notice and I'd like to have an international flight available for me.


I also ask that you don't mention any of this to anyone, and I won't bring it up until I meet it.


So, yeah, that's different than being reckless or adventurous because like, even though it sounds like it could be reckless and adventurous because it's like, oh, like if, you know, there might be a time where I do something random, but like usually when you're reckless and adventurous, it comes with spontaneity, not intent.


Yes. Yes. Wow. That was really deep. And I mean, I'm the love guru, so. That's right. You're beating around all the bush. That's what they call me. Like, I know how to how to really massage the mind. And with some hutzpah, that's me.


Yeah. So it's just a little shady and like, yeah, maybe she was just like, I don't know, maybe I want to but yeah, you're right.


It's like planning ahead. It's a little strange.


It sounds ominous to of like to I might need to leave the country like don't tell anyone. Yeah but don't tell anyone is like just affirming like I have a secret.


Something bad.


Yeah. And the week before death there were more red flags. So this one gives me goose cam I got to say. So the day before she died Wednesday, December 1st of 2010, she had sent a group text like a mass text to her mom, her grandmother and a few other family members and her boss. And this is what the text read.


In all caps, high family, comma, I'm in bed about to sleep, and when I wake, I will transform into the most incredible human being you've ever seen, not I will go to hospital.


It's safer there. And I hear the special tonight is tomato soup. Delicious, nutritious.


I love you all very much, but not enough to send an individual text. Sorry about that, but time is sleep and I must be on my way. Merrily, merrily, merrily. Life is but a dream XO.


OK, either it's drugs or Shemin escape room. It's oh god. It sounds like Ms escape.


It sounds like a riddle like she's trying to like because like I know like I'm saying that like in a jokey way but also like in a serious way it sounds like maybe like Allison and I have very like we have a code word. If some code we're going down like that, there could have been something in there where she was implying something to someone. Yeah. Yeah, it was.


I think I mean, it sounds to me personally and again, obviously I'm no expert by any means, but it sounds to me either like drugs or mental illness, you know, you see, she's know she's not sounding stable no matter what she does.


And, you know, you see people writing messages and stuff in a manic state or what have you.


And sometimes they do come off very, I don't know, bubbly and like aggressive and strange and like that does happen.


So in my mind, that's kind of where my head went. But the fact that she also did experiments, drugs and things, who knows? Um, yeah.


And also that combined with, like, kind of the paranoia of I might need to leave the country is like a little bit.


Yeah. Of a weird combo happening the same month.


So I do I mean, I really personally just wanted to be like she was trying to give someone a tip off because I'd love for that to be a twist in the story.


But I do think, like, first of all, the first sign of her not being stable was actually put her mom in a group chat with her boss is like, that was enough for me.


I was like, oh, boyfriends and their mom and the boss. Yeah, this is bad.


Yeah, so do we.


I mean, I guess I know your answer where you think she wrote that is one of the theories that she was already dead and someone wrote that for two people.


No, because this was this was before she died. This is the day before she died. The day before. So. Yeah. So she this was pre fire drill pre all that. So she had just sent this kind of mysteriously the day before.


And that's why people are now associating her stumbling with the dogs with like probably some sort of substance abuse. Yeah. Because they're just can also seem to be and because she had a tendency to drink and do drugs.


And I will tell you about the talks report in a little bit. OK, so automatically for obvious reasons, Ginnette, the grandmother's reaction is that something is not right here.


Phoebes in trouble.


That's onto something. Yeah, it's onto something. And this is not the kind of text Phoebe would send. So it's not like they're like, oh, Phoebe, with her silly nursery rhyme, it's like this is not patrol under the bridge riddles like, you know, like tomato soup.


What could it mean? So that they were like, you know, grandma was like, this is not I love how grandma and grandpa are like, step aside, everybody. I know what's up.


Look, when when there's a crisis, like, they can really come to the forefront and force them to learn and they are on the case.


Yep. So in Phoebes, like, OK, on Sunday before she died, Phoebe had a Skype call with her mom, Natalie. And Natalie remembers that the lights were all off in Phoebe's room when she called. So she was in a dark room. And Natalie had asked Phoebe whether things had been patched up with aunt. And instead of responding, she lifted a finger to silence her. And Natalie thinks Phoebe wanted to say something but couldn't. So Phoebe said Antz, watching a movie in the other room.


And that was it, like, don't talk about it. So she was like, that was a little shady.


And then on Monday, Phoebe met with her psychologist who remembers that she was at a pretty low point and they had been working on a plan to reduce her drinking, which had worked for a little while until she had relapsed. And her psychologist felt she was depressed and said it was the closest to suicidal ideation that she had seen her.


Oh, shit. However, she said she didn't necessarily think she was suicidal.


But it's also like that's such a I mean, I think the word I guess like a nuanced way of sure.


It's it's not that black and white. You know, you can't be like, oh, the therapist said she was this way. It's like there's so much more that goes into. Right.


You know, that relationship and such like a one again, a one two seven. Like it's there's a lot going on there. Exactly.


It's just kind of like a broad statement. And it's not evidence, in my opinion. And that evening, Phoebe and aunt had gone to dinner, which ended in a huge screaming match. Phoebe stormed off to meet up with her friend Bren for a drink, but the bar closed early. So Aunt called Phoebe. So, OK, sorry, the bar closed early, so the drink lasted only 30 minutes.


And during that time, aunt called Phoebe twenty seven times. Girl, OK? I don't like that, no. So I'm like, that's I mean, not good that in case there are confused people out there that screams abuse, I'm pretty sure.


Yeah. Yeah. The twenty seven calling someone twenty seven times while they're with a friend and answering is alarming to me. It's a red flag at the it's a it's a red flag.


It's not a green flag. No it's somewhere. I would say it's like maroon.


It's peach. Yeah. It's a little pitchy.


So Brandon went home cause he was working the next day and Phoebe basically just like refused to go home and went out and ended up at a friend's house.


And Tuesday morning she went to the apartment but had already left for work. And as soon as she got home, she made calls to the crisis line.


Her doctor and her psychologist. Yeah. Who spoke to her for 30 minutes because she was, like, really distressed about her drinking relapse and her bender, as they called it.


And she was really upset about her relationship. So she was like, clearly not in a good place by any means. And after this, she headed out again for another big night of drinking. Right. So on Wednesday, ten thirty a.m. is when she sent the tomato soup message. And it's and it's important to note that it was ten thirty on Wednesday because it was sent from her iPhone. And this is so the iPhone had originally belonged to aunt and she had an iPhone and a Nokia.


But Phoebe had dropped her iPhone on the street on Monday and broken it.


And so now we reached this inconsistency where up until a year after her disappearance and maintains that on Wednesday, he had brought Phoebe's iPhone to the shop to get repaired, in which case, how on earth was she able to send this tomato soup message from the iPhone?


Aha. I see. And like, I think probably one of our first thoughts would be like, oh, I message like we know she had a laptop maybe, but I did a little research. My message was not invented until 2011.


So mysterious. And dun dun dun dun dun dun dun. It just said as my theme song just Detective Schiefer on the case. So I was like because that's my first thought.


Like you and I sometimes will be like on the phone and texting. Yeah. On our computers you know, it's just whatever. But so I was like I don't think it could have been sent from her laptop.


So the confusion is. Well, he says he went brought it to the shop on Wednesday, but she texted from it on Wednesday.


So just odd. So years later, he kind of recanted that and said, oh, well, maybe I dropped it off on Thursday, but of course, the shop doesn't have a record of it. So it's just kind of like just fishy.




So all we have is of that whole story is a receipt that shows that Anstead picked the phone up a few days after Phoebe died.


So we know that the phone was picked up after from the repair shop. OK, we're just not sure when it was dropped off.


So on the Wednesday after Phoebe's death, Natalie and Len were called in for a meeting at Len's house with Detectives Clanchy and Wallace.


That's what we're like the like like a Roger Rabbit 1940s investigation. You said that? Yeah.


I looked up the name Clanchy like three times. I was like, are we sure it's Clanchy Clancy or something? Right. I was like, I must have just put an H. Nope, it's Clanchy. OK, I'm so clean.


She and Wallace were the homicide team investigating Phoebe's death, and they basically told Natalie and Len that there was no additional party involved.


She did this herself, which is basically what they said from the beginning.


Hmm. And so, as I said before, the family was still like, I don't think that's true. Like you're not looking into this enough. So there were more questions apart from like the trash chute incident that Lauren had already proven was extremely difficult. Sure. So there were other things.


For example, Phoebe's sunglasses were found near her body and they were like, well, if she walked to the trash chute, why was she wearing sunglasses, like indoors to it?


Just a weird another weird discrepancy could have been like hanging on her shirt or in her pocket or something.


Yeah, I was thinking that to her above your head. Yeah. So to me, I'm like, that's not a huge deal.


But, you know, it's something that they couldn't explain.


And the coroner had said so there was bruising all up, like I said earlier on her wrist. Yeah. And her upper arm and elbow. And the coroner had said Phoebe was trying to control her dissent on the sides of the shoot.


Oh, however, for me, OK, this is what they talked about.


This in crime junkie, too, of like if you got in that shoot, you weren't going with your arms down.


Your arms were above your head. Right. Right. And so, like, I guess you could kind of push sideways. But basically the way that they had explained it was that she was using her hands to try and stop the fall.


I feel like if her hands were above her, there's not really. You can do to try and stop your own soul, maybe cover your own head, if that. Yeah, there's nothing else. Yeah, you're kind of just crammed in there.


And so I thought that was odd.


Also, the autopsy, the medical evidence in the autopsy didn't really prove much of this at all. So it's just another theory they kind of came up with and stuck to.


Also, if she were controlling her descent and trying to stop herself, she would have had more dirt on her and the chute because she was obviously filthy and she wasn't found with any marks or like dirt on her arms or anything.


And so that was another weird thing of like you'd think she would be like pushing against the sides of the chute or, you know, something, if that's what the bruising was from. Yeah, but there was no dirt or trash found on her skin.


So another weird I feel I would argue that would definitely be there. Like, that's not like a like oh, maybe it was like that's what I would argue, that if you tried not to touch the walls you'd still be covered in trash.


You go to trash you and try not to get dirty. Let's put that way. I try to put trash in a trash chute and I come home like why it's so nasty. Yes, exactly. So. So the Hendriks are struggling with this whole situation, especially because the police just keep saying, oh no, she did it on purpose. And they're like, what the hell, you know?


So seemingly everybody else seemed to be doing just fine, so Phoebe's boyfriend aren't only five days after her death took to Facebook.


You know, your favorite word I took to Facebook my favorite word and certainly my genetic code at this point.


He took to Facebook to inform his friends that he had made peace. OK, hang on.


Sorry. That's not quite what he said. Oh, OK. That's kind of my opinion. But he did say that.


So he informed his friends that Phoebe took her own life to ease her pain. So essentially, he's saying, like, I've made peace with the fact that she did this on purpose.


She died by suicide like she wanted this to happen. Yeah. I'm happy she's in a better place. Yeah.


He's basically saying he's basically confirming that it was a suicide by saying like she was in a what did you say? A little bit about it.


But she took her own life to ease her pain. And meanwhile, her family is like, no, like we don't think so.


Aren't you on our side? Like, don't you think like something happened? So it's a little weird that he is the only one seeming to be totally on board with the idea that this is a suicide granted like this.


You know, Phoebe and Alison are not the same person, it seems in many ways.


But like if if I Alison, you know, ended up we found her body in a trash chute and like, there's a good chance that someone threw her down there for me to act like this was what was meant to be. I would be I would hope someone would think that was fishy. Yeah.


It's just a little bit like, OK, you already shut the case so quickly, you shut the door on the so quick now that you're on board.


Not curious about what could have happened or not even like disputing. Right. Yeah, exactly. Like the rest of her friends and family are all like, hell, no, she didn't do this on purpose.


And yeah, I mean, granted, maybe he knew her better and was like, no, I, I really believe that. So, I mean, you know, who's to say. But it was just something that seemed a little bit fishy. Natalie and Len, Phoebe's parents wanted to speak to aunt, but they he was basically really hostile toward them and was like, nope, I'm too grief stricken. So eventually Natalie finally texted him and was like, can we please chat alone?


So he's like, OK, sure, come over. And when they got there the following Tuesday, aunt had both his father and his mother there as well, like as back up. Yeah.


So like he wasn't alone in a room with the mom. Yes.


So during the meet up, aunt's father apparently came up to Len and said, I'm sorry for your loss, but she was a very troubled girl, obviously.


Yikes. Who OK, I mean, this is not making him look good like. Yes, no, it's not.


And Natalie also remembered the dad saying, well, of course it was suicide.


So like, yikes. So it sounds shocking.


However, you might learn or you might find it less shocking when you learn that Anne's father was a former Supreme Court lawyer, OK? He was a public figure. So basically, yeah, they had to shut the door on this and say it was obviously a suicide. She was troubled.


Yes. Please, God, don't ask any more questions because I look really bad. Yeah, yes, yes.


Just like leave it alone. It wasn't we have nothing to do with us. So with this in mind, it basically comes as no surprise.


The aunt was never formally considered a suspect. He just basically said he wasn't at home and they took his word for it. And that's great.


Great investigating their guy's fantasy super. And in fact, the coroner actually praised aunt for having taken care of Phoebe during her drinking problems and depression out of town.


What are you talking about? So on the day of Phoebe's death, aunt claimed to have been in meetings all afternoon. However, this isn't true because SWIP records of like the keycard to the apartment building show that he got back to the apartment at six p.m. and her body wasn't discovered until seven p.m..


And so there is a smaller gap. Isn't that that is a there's a big old window of an hour where he's suddenly saying, oh, I was gone all afternoon, but there's this hour of time and he's kind of volatile and she's thinking of leaving and uh huh, uh huh, yep, yep.


So Aunt claims that when he got home, Phoebe wasn't there. There was already broken glass on the floor, like I mentioned earlier, blood on the cushion and computer keyboard. He said the blood looked fresh.


He also saw Phoebe's handbag on the kitchen counter and her hair straightener was plugged in and turned on.


So it basically suggests she was getting ready to leave because she was doing her hair.


Yeah, her purse was out and still there. There's broken glass and blood.


So who knows what order of events took place here.


But the fact that the hair straightener was still on is like really ominous to me.


I mean, it's like I mean, I can just imagine with my own personal opinion of what probably happened. I'm imagining that he plugged it in just to keep it on for a little too long. And then like like if he called the police or something. I know this isn't how it had. And because, like, she was found later, but in my mind, I think, like if he were to plan this out in case someone noticed, like he put the flat iron out on the sink to make it look like she had been there and all that.




I mean, my thought is that, like, she was straightening her hair and they got into a fight and he.


Oh, no. In my head it's much more ominous. Like he like pulled it out so that he could set up a scene. Yeah, I have no proof of that.


It's just in my head is happening because I've already kind of like, I guess in my head.


So that makes it look fishy on him, because if he's trying to say it was a suicide, why on earth would he like a stranger?


Yeah, I mean, yeah, he's basically saying, oh yeah, she was really troubled and she decided to end her own life. But then, like, you know, they found the hair straightener on. There was glass on the floor. Yeah.


No, you're he's he's just trying to chalk it up in my head, I think. Yeah.


No, I mean it's very weird. And like maybe he did maybe he thought it would look better that way. I don't know.


But so the hair straightener was on and then even though he apparently found broken glass and blood and a hair straightener on, he had a beer and a cigarette.


Yeah. And was he just he just went to bed. He was like, oh, that's all we want. Of course, today. Yeah. Took it to watch them.


Whose line is it anyway? I don't know why. That's the Porsche that came into my brain anyway. So he had a beer and a cigarette. He made a series of calls, one to a work colleague first, then to a close friend and then, OK, now this is where things get real weird. He ordered Thai takeout from a Thai restaurant called the Golden Triangle.


OK, now this is ultra weird because only hours later or like within the hour, basically, he and Phoebe were supposed to be meeting Phoebe's dad, Len, for dinner at the Golden Triangle for for just a date dinner out with her dad.


I don't know how that makes it so fishy, but I decided he is guilty and he knew he was going to this dinner.


So it's like it was almost like a slap in the face of like I know exactly what's supposed to happen. Know, I want to make it almost weird enough that you even know what I did. But we all want to figure it out.


Yeah, it's almost like toying, but like, it's just so odd because it doesn't really make sense.


So, like, they were supposed to be meeting and so presumably she was doing her hair to get ready to meet her dad, which was her plan.


And it was just really strange because suddenly he's ordering it's not like he knew at this point. She was like bailing on dinner. Maybe he just thought, oh, she's late or who knows? But it was just like, why on earth would you be like, OK, dinner might be off.


I'm going to take it if she if he was under the impression that she was alive and well and we're about to go to Outback together and then I order Outback in inside and like, people are waiting for us like, yeah, what a weird, rude thing. And like so specifically just to mess with you.


Yeah. It's so weird. And also, like, listen, it doesn't say this, but in my mind he didn't order her an entree.


So I'm like, was he just ordering himself food and being like, anyway, she'll find her own food.


It feels like a already thing of like oh, like I knew we were going there. I already had a craving. So now that I've eaten, you can go be with your dad.


Yeah, you can. Yeah, you can. I'm bailing because yeah. It's just so weird. So it's just strange.


Like that's weird. Did he forget. Like who knows. Maybe he just eats Thai every day. I don't think that's the case. But just like really strange.


So that same night, 651 PM, remember they're supposed to meet with Phoebe's dad. So Len calls Phoebe's phone to be like, I'm running a bit late. And of course, it goes to voicemail. But again, within this is really strange within a minute or two and calls Len and get this, it's the first time he has ever telephoned Phoebe's dad. So, like, he's never calling before, ever.


So he just happens to call him within two minutes of this call to to Phoebe's iPhone.


But he calls from his own phone and basically just to say Phoebe's not here. So I'm not sure where she is. And he's like, well, we're supposed to meet.


And it's like, I know, but I don't I don't she's not home. I don't know where she is, like, probably eating fucking pantie in the background while he's talking to him, but sitting on a couch with blood and glass on.


Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So he's like basically if he's not here, I don't know where she is. And Aunt claims that, like, the timing of this was coincidence because remember, her phone was allegedly he had already brought it to the repair shop.




And so, like the fact that and I'm sorry, Phoebe's dad called Phoebe's iPhone and then immediately he called him back. But he's saying like, oh, no, it was just like I just happened to call him. Right. When he called her phone, her phone wasn't here. It was at the repair shop.


He was like, really weird. He's basically just saying, like, I didn't have her phone. I didn't have access to it.


So just another odd thing.


So shortly after he spoke to Len and takeout arrived, if you recall. Yes.


And the takeout guy was actually the one who.


Alerted him to the police presence at the building. So the take out guys like have you seen what's going on here? And he's like, no, what's happening? And the guy's like, yo, there's like police everywhere.


And the buildings taped off, like maybe was that it was you trying to get an alibi to where he looked, like, really cool, calm and collected.


Or he needed someone to see him in the apartment. Yeah, yeah. And he's like, what restaurant is exists? This one, the only one I can think he might have really been panicking, like about getting caught, and he was like, that's a very good point. You know, like he needs someone to spot him in the apartment.


Look, if I throw enough what ifs that you one of them is going to stick every time I throw spaghetti at me.


And one time I'll catch be like maybe open your mouth. I'm going to throw the whole pot of you.


See one Elfrida, one Elfrida, one linguini, one linguine, just like it's noodles all the way to the top.


All right. It's one linguine all the way to the top surahs.


So the guy.


That's a good point. So maybe the guy's just like he's like, what's going on? And the guy's like, it's so weird. There's police everywhere. And he's like, wow, you don't say I'm in my apartment drinking a beer.


Yeah. So you could be very well. Right. So while the crime scene is being investigated, Aunt Anne's father and mother were all sitting in the apartment while police were, quote unquote, working the scene.


However, the inquest actually had no idea, like later they did an inquest into the case and they had no idea how the parents got into the apartment because there was no like SWIP for them to get in. So basically, this just points to like anybody could have gotten in.


It's an apartment building.


You can follow somebody inside like, oh, yeah, I mean, people just like follow me and all the time. Yeah, yeah. I mean, even if I don't know who they are, I'll be OK. Can you hold the door, you know. Yes, exactly.


So it doesn't eliminate the possibility that somebody came in like a stranger, a dangerous person followed her. Who knows.


Like I don't know. But basically it's just a little weird that they got in without swiping. So who knows who else could have. Now, there was, as you asked earlier, CCTV footage of the building.


OK, but fun fact. Police didn't ask for it until two days after her death when it was already taped over.


Fuck. OK, I know.


Basically they got there and we're like, it's a suicide. Police initially were like, it's a suicide. And then would they have already?


I guess they wouldn't have, but would they have connected her at all to like a like a a wealthy person like her? She was dating the son of a wealthy guy who wanted to keep things hush hush. And so they just immediately turned a blind eye.


It could it could have. Yeah, it definitely could have been that, too, like especially later when they did another investigation.


And like, he was basically still untouched and they were like, no, nothing to see here, you know, very well. Could have been like, we don't want to mess with this like powerful family. Or, you know, it could very well have been that for sure.


I don't know if they know knew it right away, but they could have.


Yeah. And been like, oh yeah. She was troubled. That's it. Hmm. So it gets worse because what's even more infuriating is that the garbage room where she landed, they didn't check anything. They didn't they didn't take the trash bags around her to see if like maybe she went with something else, like maybe she was throwing away some of the broken glass from the apartment, who knows?


But they didn't check anything.


They didn't check her surroundings while trash bags, nothing.


It gets worse. They didn't take her phone and laptop in for testing until three months later.


Oh, my God. And it took them two and a half years before they actually analyzed them.


Why? It's, you know, it's like worthless. Worthless what? So like by 2013, they had a guess. They were like, I guess we'll finally check her emails.


Yeah, I'm sorry. That sounds like that sounds like a couple of dirty cops or dirty, dirty, rich people doing some exchanges of goods.


Something shady, especially because as for the blood in the apartment, they never fucking checked it or tested it for DNA.


They just were like in I'm sorry, in 2013, they did not check blood all over the apartment of a dead person who was trash. Ten, but yes, yes, twenty, ten. There were small amounts of blood.


But that's almost sketchier to me because I'm like, why were there small amounts of blood throughout the apartment? Why was there blood on your left?


I'm still trying to wrap my head. Like who? Like slices their foot open or something. I was like, let me, like, fill out and let me. Well, and that's part of the M.O..


Well, that's part of the thought, too, is like maybe I mean, if so, if she was kind of in a state or on drugs, like maybe she did cut herself. So it wasn't like, you know what I mean, cognizant of the pain. Yeah.


But then again, what if they got into a fight and he cut, he got a cut and then he went on her computer to Google, like how to get rid of a body in a trash you and they never trace blood traces of a shit.


Yeah, exactly. Yeah.


They could have literally checked the laptop, which they didn't for two and a half years, and the blood and they didn't.


The fact that people know there was blood in this apartment in the police. Yeah. Like they immediately reverted back to like that John Mulaney. Bit of like. Yeah. Cops in the thirties with her like mop it up. Weird.


What a mess. Back to my home.


She's like, yeah, you can't, you cannot tell me that that's that there wasn't something shady happening basically just decided it was suicide, didn't want to bother with it.


And then once things kind of. Rolling, they were like, well, we already decided it's a suicide. It's just too much work to really it's not even that the evidence is literally everywhere in the just take some up and put it a little vial or a Q tip. Yeah.


And watch a CSI.


Don't worry, I know enough they'll like you don't need much to to literally just take it to an office and check the DNA.


Yeah. So obviously Lorne, Phoebe's grandfather is like what though. And he is an ex detective. So he's like, what the fuck.


Trello he calls the chief of police directly to try to he don't want to file a formal complaint.


He calls the chief of police to be like, listen, I'm going to talk to you directly. But instead of, like an apology or like an explanation, basically the guy just says, I have total faith in my men and that's it. So he doesn't even get, like an explanation or anything.


Also, like, your faith is wack, dude. Yichang about meanwhile, Lauren is like trying to test like trash chutes with your test subjects.


So and continued to act strange. He basically was like really weird.


He his sorry, Phoebe's friend said he was able to like turn his emotions on and off pretty rapidly for no good reason.


And yet a major rift form between the families. They actually had their own separate funerals and memorial services like which I'm like, get her name out of your mouth, man.


We not going to come to the family service like. Truly, truly so Anne's family hosted theirs at a yacht club, and according to friends who went, it was like really cold and sterile and like didn't feel like personal to Phoebe at all.


And on the other hand, Phoebe's family did like a really beautiful Norwegian funeral where he they had a boat carved and at a lakeside, they did a farewell service, put her ashes and letters from family and friends, draped the boat and marigold and pushed it into the lake, which was like, that's just beautiful.


Like what peaceful men do that. I know.


Also, I was going to like not trying to sound ignorant, but in my head, like, if it's like in some magical place like Iceland or like like Norway, like, I just imagine it's like a Viking funeral with a Viking for you to say.


And then you said they like basically put her out to sea in a boat and was like, holy shit, it's kind of like that.


And then they set it on fire and all they did was like, oh, just drapes it in marigolds like. Yeah, so wonderful. I know.


It's really beautiful. So essentially it was really tough because again, and families like big kahunas and basically he was friends with his family, was friends with like all the top lawyers in town. So like they couldn't even get a fucking decent lawyer to represent them. Calcifies Yeah. And they had to hold fundraisers to even pay their legal bills.


So they didn't inquest's and they found that the the bruises weren't accounted for in the bruising on the arms wasn't accounted for in the coroner's original report.


And another pathologist noted that the bruising is typically seen when someone is holding another person's arms really aggressively.


So it could have been like maybe carrying them to the to the shoe or dragging trying to lift her maybe.


Yes, exactly. Like put your hands around their arms. And when Phoebe died, she had a therapeutic amount of Stilnox, which is like the equivalent of Ambien, basically shit.


OK, in her blood.


So she had basically been taking just like a normal dose of like Ambien, which to be fair, like I've known people who take Ambien and they can really can rock your world.


Yeah. Yeah. Especially if you're drinking. Sure. Alongside it. So she did have like a small amount of Stilnox or Ambien in her blood and she had zero point one six blood alcohol. So she was at the time of her death time, three times the legal driving limit of alcohol in her system.


So she was intoxicated for sure, and on like the equivalent of Ambien.


So under that context or in that context, you can maybe imagine, like, you know, people sleepwalk, people do weird things like, yeah, maybe she was just, you know, quote unquote, not in the right mind.


And like I mean, did I get it? Like, I truly, maybe, truly, maybe. But really maybe I that's like to me like a like an 80-20 situation. Yeah.


Yeah. Like I don't think that's the answer personally, but one thing seems to make more sense to me. Yeah, I agree.


And even the doctors at the inquest were skeptical because they were basically saying, like, it seems like you'd be less likely to complete a very difficult task, like a physical labor of getting yourself in a trust you if you were on sleeping pills. Sure.


And, you know, it seems like you wouldn't I can't do that at my best and energy level.


I'm like, let alone here, knock yourself the fuck out and try to exhaust yourself, OK? No. Yeah.


So, I mean, again, people do weird things on Ambien, but like this is just next level. And so they were like it was really fishy. Also, Phoebe was claustrophobic. So they were like, I don't think in like her subconscious, she would get inside a trash chute that seems like not like her at all.


Right. So when Phoebe was found, this is another weird fact that, like, just somehow got ignored during the initial investigation, quote unquote, investigation.


So when Phoebe was found, her jeans were halfway down her thighs and there was no sign of sexual assault. So it's just like why?


Like, there's it's just really strange because if she had gone head first, then you can understand why maybe her pants had slid up. Sure. But she went down feet first. So like, how did her pants get down her legs?


It's just an odd seemingly her pants were down her legs before she got in the trash chute in in my mind, which again, like I'm making up an entire situation that it doesn't even matter if it's relevant to the story.


I've just already decided this is how my brain works.


I feel like maybe someone thought that if they took the clothes off, then like then she might look like she was a little more crazed or something and it would only fit a profile of like her definitely being medically induced in some way or like maybe they thought she would slide down faster without pants on. I don't know. I have no idea. But yeah, but they were like halfway on.


It was just weird because it was like and then gave up and then was like, OK, this is too much. I don't know. Yeah, maybe, I mean, maybe I also wonder, like, OK, so but the other thing that I find interesting is if your pants are halfway down your legs, you're not lifting your legs six feet in the air. That's not you know what I mean.


That's because if your pants are not even on all the way, like it's hard enough to climb into a when my pants are off, I can't even, like, walk across the room.


So I fall directly onto my face. Yeah, exactly. So it's just weird. And again, there was no evidence of sexual assault. No one could really answer this question.


Maybe somebody said like maybe once she had fallen, she tried to take them off. Remember, she was like, well, like maybe she maybe just tried to tie off her foot.


Yes, exactly. That was one of the thoughts. Like maybe she's trying to rip them to stop the bleeding. So, again, really strange.


So the inquest spanned three weeks and only attended twice, once to give evidence and once as a spectator. And after all of that, the coroner still found, even though the doctors and all that testified, he found that it was an accidental death. So he didn't change his mind. Wow.


And basically, Phoebe's family was like, listen, this coroner made up his mind from day one.


He wasn't going to change it. So it's just really sad. And so since Phoebe's inquest and the launch of this podcast, Phoebe's fall, and I mentioned the Victorian government has pledged to reform the coroner's act. So that's at least, you know, one good thing out of this. Obviously, Phoebe's grandfather has said, like, that is not enough, you know, understandably.


And Ant has moved on. I mean, either way, whether he did it or not, which like again, to be clear, he's never been formally suspected, but he moved on. So, you know, either way, good for him.


However, so he got remarried, then he got divorced and he started dating again.


But then the most shocking thing, not the most shocking, but a pretty shocking thing happened in June of twenty eighteen. And a girlfriend.


Twenty five year old Bailey Schneider, was found dead in her home, OK, and it was ruled a suicide.


Shut the fuck up. OK, that's well, that's the smoking gun right there in fisheye.


So basically, this is like from crime junkie. But she lived at home with her parents and on Friday she'd gone to a party also. She was twenty 25.


She was also the same age and there was an age gap. So it's almost feels like he's like like almost exact age. It's like he's got to know.


Yeah. So she got home around eight thirty or nine like in the morning. Her parents saw her, they passed ways and then later on when they got home, they found her slumped on the kitchen floor, dead with a cord around her neck.


Now, this is the wildest thing. Police ruled her death a suicide by hanging. However, there was not one item in that kitchen where she could have hanged herself.


I was going to say I have a guaranteed hunch that there was something tied around her neck and nowhere it could have no way connected to hanged her.


Yes, exactly.


So it's like it's just like an extra fuck you, because, like, if you're going to cover up a murder, like, at least pretend to put some elbow grease in it, like, yeah, you're not even trying.


Like, when you're like, I'll put this here for, like, the aesthetic and like I it doesn't matter because I'm going to get away with it anyway. Like that's just like the most narcissistic part of it all. It's awful.


So yeah, basically there was nothing in the room to hang her from.


They didn't take any evidence. They just decided it was a suicide. They didn't take her phone and it took the family months of fighting before the police even took the phone as evidence. So, again, like I'm not saying it's and it doesn't have to be him, but like maybe it's someone affiliated with the family. Maybe it's somebody else, an outsider, a friend who knows. But like, it's just really weird that this happened especially twice. Yeah.


To like, quote unquote, suicides that are questionable at best.


Well, now it also makes sense things earlier I didn't totally understand them of like, oh, why she's dying her hair black and shit. Because like for someone who's, you know, probably who was thinking of fleeing, she probably got in a dispute of some physical version with him at some point. I guarantee he threatened, like, do you know who my family is? Like, you don't get to leave me. Yeah, I can imagine that conversation having happened.


So she probably felt stuck and was like trying to just force herself to fit into the family because she probably felt like she couldn't leave anymore.


Yeah, it's and with the emails to her mom saying, like, I might need to leave the country. Yeah.


But then you mix that with like the therapist was saying, you know, she was in a really terrible mental state. She was drinking on benders heavily. She was taking recreational drugs and Ambien and had already a history of, you know, mental illness.


It's like I wonder I wonder what the I mean, I you know, I hate to pry into a new person or new victim, but like, I would be interested to see what the mental history of his other girlfriend that died was, because it would be interesting to see if his M.O. are people who conveniently would have done this or had more probable cause to.


Seem off or unstable, so if something to happen, the finger could be quickly pointed somewhere else. I wonder if that's like, OK, they're much younger than me. And also, I mean, I don't want to make it clear I don't give a shit like about like age differences and all that. But it's just interesting, coincidentally, that both people happen to be like 15 years his junior and they both died by very suspicious suicides. So I wonder if there's also a mental history thing he tends to go for?


Yeah, I'm not sure.


But the fact that, like, basically that the second, quote unquote, suicide, like couldn't have been a suicide is like the wildest part to me because I'm like with the first one. Yes. People, you know, with Allyssa Lamb and stuff like you want to believe some fantastical story, but mental illness is a fucking killer sometimes. And like, if she was really suffering or, you know, if she had an undiagnosed bipolar or things like that, that can lead you to do manic things, especially when you're on substances like I'm not saying he did it because it's like I understand the nuance of having being on drugs, having a dependency problem like mental illness.


But then to have the second person, quote unquote, hang herself from nothing is like, wait, wait, wait, wait.


That part, I can't it just I mean, pushed aside.


But then it's like, yes, I understand. Like, I like to think that we both are. Yeah. Active allies for those that you know and the mental illness community or mental health community, not mental illness. Yikes.


But like, like obviously like mental health could have been a factor or could have been the whole story for all we know. But this second one happening just completely like I don't know, the mental health part doesn't even matter to me.


Situationally fisheye. Yeah. I don't even care.


Like I, I personally think like absolutely not. Did I have anything to do with her own personal health. Yeah.


And like again, who knows if like I mean, listen, I watch all these shows how to get away with murder, the scandal and all that, like maybe Shonda Rhimes style.


Like there's another person in the family who's a killer and anybody he dates like they Tarhuna like I'm not saying it's him, but I'm saying something fishy is happening here.


And it's but again, also, if he did kill her, like, why there's not really a clear reason, like, I guess maybe in a fit of anger, like they got into a fight and he pushed her down the chute and.


Yeah, I mean, that would make sense, I guess. But there's other than that, like like it's not really that much evidence. I mean, the family even liked him. It's not like they were like he such a terrible jerk.


I passed. I mean, again, there's no like real clean cut evidence of this. But I kind of I really have a weird feeling that it's like some sort of serial killer thing where he has an M.O. and he goes after people who already have this kind of storyline or like dark past and like they're kind of reckless. So if they were to leave out of nowhere, no one would really be surprised. And again, it has nothing to do with the story you've just told.


I just and also I'd like to be clear, like this guy was not ever formally considered a suspect.


And we are not saying he is because Podcast's have been sued for less. But no. So I'm certainly not saying that. But yeah, no, I it's very I find it also very fishy.


I will say I find it also extremely fishy and just the whole thing together. Plus the second girlfriend is like what are you doing, what's going on.


Either that or you're like the most unlucky man alive somehow.


You know, it's like why I have such intense feelings about it. This is just such a juicy, like, juicy in a bad way story. I know. Anyway, so I'm sorry if I'm coming off intense. I just like. No, no, it's I just I'm who I understand also, like, we do not want to get sued and I'm not trying to I'm not saying anyone is a serial killer. I'm just saying, like, if I were to put all the pieces together in my head, if this were a Law and order episode, I would assume if I were guessing the end of this, it would end with it not being the victim's fault here or, you know, them being responsible for it in any way.


I think it's just too perfectly convenient.


OK, but if I were writing the story, it would be you'd think it's the boyfriend and then it's like the mom or something. And she had a vendetta against his girlfriend.


That's just Hollywood baby. That's like he has a type, but somebody else is after them. Not OK anyway, who knows. This is clearly a mystery for a reason. So these are like the last bullets years after her death, Christina hample his.


His sister and sister posted a Facebook photo of Phoebe, she wrote, I just stumbled across my favorite pic of beautiful Phoebe. I miss you, darling. You are a fragile little flower that no one watered. You and your family were let down by the justice system and those who represent it. I can only hope that the truth will come out so they may have some peace and it was only up for 12 hours and was then deleted. So it's like a little weird that either she deleted it or someone told her to delete it, but also just a little strange that she deleted it pretty quickly.


So it's also hard to be even sure what happened because, like, the evidence was never collected.


So, like, we don't even know half the story, basically. But if you listen to Phoebe's fall, the podcast, it's a six episode series and has a lot of detail. They interview Phoebe's family members and friends so you can hear it firsthand. But anyway, that is the story of Phoebe Hanzlik. I'm sorry, that was long.


And we had technical issues, but it's not you. I was just like screaming of random information.


You I just. It's so weird. It's so weird. It's too weird because, like, it really could be a mental health thing. Sure. It really could be a, you know, a family that happens to know enough dirty cops in some way.


I mean, it just just be like, why was nobody picking up the blood and looking at evidence? I don't know. It's infuriating that alone. It makes me think like, OK, so this is not as innocent of the case as it seems in my head, allegedly.


But if you think about it, so many of these cases go that way where it's like, guess what, nobody got the CCTV footage. Guess what? They just assumed like, I feel like there's so many mis mishandling things and this one's just like such a, you know, crazy example, this trash chute.


But I feel like a lot of times, like they are just like it's a suicide.


This one's also, I think, just more shocking because it's like it's not like you had to go digging for evidence. It was literally in front of your very eyes.


It was like like yes. It wasn't like it's so blatant. What is this about? We have to go open an investigation and really go digging for stuff. It's like there is blood everywhere. There's blood.


I have to try a broken glass. There is literally trash bags already in trash bag, like there's trash evidence in trash bags for you to just pick up and like, nobody even like, open them.


I think that's why it's more shocking because like. Yeah, OK, so there's no CCTV footage. Wow. Shocker. That's happened a million times.


Like, yeah, it just it's so so the fact that the murder was so wild, like a the death I should say is so wild like that alone too. It's like, wait, so you saw this person falling down trash you and you were like, OK, we don't need any more information.


It's like if somebody or a hanging where it was wasn't attached to anything, like I would usually be like how?


OK, so clearly this body is on the floor. Where did they fall from. Oh, nothing.


Just old them. Like how long how many people have died in real life by having like a rope tied around their neck and they're being strangled like there's like, ah, listen, I'm listening to an audio book where that exact thing happened.


And you know what? They could have literally been like strangulation marks all over that body from another person. And they would have been like, well, we don't have enough evidence like that. We didn't take any evidence at this point. I have like if they weren't willing to do that for the first girlfriend, I have no faith in how they handled the second one. So, like, no, it's just really icky and gross and terrible.


And I have no idea what happened. And I really, really, really hope that it wasn't a mental health thing because it just makes it extra sad.


But I mean, I want to believe, like, I hope it's not the guy.


I hope it's not murdering his partner. But I don't I, I don't know.


It's just so sad. I mean, I would like to talk to his ex-wife and be like, what do you not like, you know, just be like, what do you think? Like what what is his personality behind closed doors? Yeah. The one he married in between the two deaths. I want to know, like, what she thinks. Yeah.


I just I want to I really hope it was all accidental, but like I. I don't know, I mean, there's there's only so much so like I feel like twice is becoming a pattern, like especially death, like also like if it were substance abuse for her or if she was, you know, like not properly medicated for something else, like really going on.


Yeah. Then like, why wasn't that like a was was that in the talks report. And they said like how much shit was in her other than like one Ambien like. Yeah. It was I guess Ambiens crazy but you know, it's she was pretty drunk.


So that part I guess, you know, mixed with Ambien and you don't know how a body is going to react, like how each individual will react to that.


But you're just watching me so frustrated because I don't have an answer. I'm just like, no, that's really heated because I'm like it.


Maybe it's this one, but maybe it's not this one.


I'm very these are the most fascinating to talk about, but also like the most frustrating because you're like, well, fuck, like, anyway, at the end you don't have an answer. So hopefully someday they do get an answer because I can't imagine being the family like I can imagine. Oh, I am.


I would be like as a stranger who just heard about it. I'm pissed. I can't. I'm exactly. Exactly. So to reiterate, we don't we're not claiming any one of them is what happened. I have my my personal suspicion. My personal hunch. But Jesus, like, I'm definitely sad.


Yeah. I definitely have grievances above all else of like, oh, there is so much more information and like, yeah, there probably it probably wouldn't be a mystery if exactly.


A certain group of people just did their fucking job just like got the footage of the hallway to see if she was alone walking to the garbage.


She got a bow. Wow. Yeah.


Anyway, on that note, I'm so sorry. I really hope I didn't bother anybody because I started screaming about mental health and I'm hoping I said nothing. Wildling No, no, no.


I mean, I think everyone knows we should know where we stand on that topic.


Anyway, I just got this is like one of the first ones that you've done where I got, like, really heated. Like, I am so upset. I don't love her, but great.


Well, that being said, I'm going to go scream into a pillow now and say, thank you, guys, I'm going to go knock my feet on the floor.


Oh, wow. I thought I couldn't feel worse. And now you've combined both issues.


I've seen weird dreams tonight. Yeah. I'm going to start hearing knocking on doors and think you're like walking on walls. Oh, my feet are comfy. OK, well thank you guys so much. If you want to follow us. We have. And that's why we drink Dotcom, our Sociales, our podcast. Go buy our comic book. Go buy our comic book. We have some some some some merch left.


But yes, we put these in a comic book go by redeemers dotcom and that's why we drink.