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Welcome, Christine. How are you today? Oh, boy, I am doing great, thank you so much. How are you doing?

It sounds a little like a talk show. I was like, how are you today on my show? And you went, Oh, good to be here.

And I am so happy to be here. Thank you for having me. I'm glad you're here also. Otherwise we'd be talking into space. And I was like a crazy person. I miss you, Christine. I haven't talked to you in a while.

I found a tweet yesterday that you had tweeted like, oh, God, when we were on tour. And I think it was 2018, like fall of twenty eighteen.

And you had posted a picture of me, Deirdre and Linda, like looking drinking wine and looking around your mom's house renovations.

And it was so cute. I was like, I miss this. I miss you.

I miss being able to hang out with you and drink wine with Linda. And I miss her. Yeah, I know. I know. That was during our practice tour because we did like at the mini one, Philly, D.C. and New York, as I practice like audience practice, which I think I knew before now. But we there was like there are many tours before we actually made a big tour. So. Yeah.

So many times.

Yeah, it was. I miss showing you my town even though we were only there for a hot second.

I know, but it was such a beautiful friendship moment where I got to see where you grew up.

Anyway, I'm feeling nostalgic this week.

How are you. I'm OK. I'm fine. What's wrong. No, it's OK. No one's listening. It's.

It's fine. It's fine. I'm fine. It's fine. I just want to apologize in advance.

I have a big old cup of water here. Oh, your brother texted me why?

What does he want on your business. We've got a friendship. It's fine. Texted me too. Is this a group text or did he text you about something different?

You texted me individually. He said, ha ha ha. Yeah. Christine, sorry.

I'm just I love that you just phrase it as the way that, like, in a way to imply that you said it first and he was agreeing with you.

So do you think I woke up and said, good morning, Zanda, your sister is terrible.

I'm awful. No, I want to apologize because I have a big cup of water with me. I was using my microphone for something else yesterday and I realized there was a very weird sound. And I also saw someone tweet out that my audio didn't sound too clear in the last episode. Oh, that sounds kind of crackly. And at first I was like, what are they talking about? And then when I use the microphone, I was like, I know exactly what they're talking about.

And here's the thing. I had my dosage for my ADHD meds change.

Oh, so we're back to the I'm currently like having like a hot flash and I'm freezing at the same time and I have dry mouth again. So the sound that someone was hearing was literally my gross spit trying to say if it's like if you're like parachuting away.

So I'm going to stay hydrated as often as I can this week. So hopefully you don't hear that sound.

Oh, wow. Well, I'm sorry to hear that. I'm trying to hydrate, but only because my skin is dry, that's all. I don't have any fun reasons for it.

Oh, well, that's fine. You look great, though. Oh, wow. Well, thank you. I have to wash my hair in three days, so I really appreciate it.

I'll text your brother about it later, though. I'm sure you will. And I'm sure he's already sent it, Christine. And you look great.

No other I mean, I'm fine. I just like I got to do this all over again. So anyway, we have something fun.

So have you watched the show that everyone keeps trying to tell us to watch the suffering, suffering death or surviving death cybering? That sounds like my kind of content. Suffering death, but surviving death.

I have I am obsessed, obsessed.

I watch all of the episodes there, each like an hour like movie length. I watched all six of them. And my sister came over for for a little sister sleepover and we ordered Indian and we watched like three or four of the episodes. And she was we were legitimately kind of freaked out each episode, something different, like some of them are past lives, some of them which, you know, is just like my jam. Some of them are about mediums.

Some of them are about like seeing dead people or near-death experiences.

It is, oh, they talk a lot about like spiritualism and stuff and have the old photos. Oh, and the the the Society for Psychical Research is like I'm a headline.

I know they're like headline the whole thing and they talk about all the founders and oh my God, it's so good and so interesting. So thank you to everyone who recommended it. OK, Netflix knew I wanted to watch it and they were like, please just finally do it and it works.

Knows that I want to watch it too, because it's all that shows up. But I just haven't. And I just I don't know what my deal is. I think I'm just it's part of my commitment issues where everyone's like, you have to watch this thing. And I'm like, oh, now there's this pressure on me where I better enjoy it. And then I freak out that I'm like, I shouldn't watch it, because now what if I'm disappointed?

But then I decide a year later to watch it and I'm like blown away. And everyone else is like, yeah, OK, we knew. We told you, but I mean, I feel like you and I are both similar in that way where somebody tells us to do something and we don't want to do it. But then you and I are also we're not above saying, oh, I never saw it. If we watch it and hate it.

I mean, Marvel Monday has really become a place where people suggest, like, really, I'm sure, amazing content. But every time I'm like, I'll add to the list. But like, I can't confirm, but I'm going to see the list I have I have a surprise fact for all of you. There's no list. There's a list that is not written down anywhere. It's a it's a running list in my mind of like things I haven't done and like I call it the disappointment list.

But no, I it does sound interesting. I'm not going to lie. But I will say what happens in two days from now, which by the time this comes out, my brain will have exploded, was on Friday. One division comes out. Oh yeah.

Oh, my God. Christine, I have to tell you why, OK, because you're on the East Coast now. I have to call Eva and frenetic panic's now because you're asleep in the middle of the week. So I called her. I'm pretty sure this happened. I called her intentionally, so I wouldn't think this was a fever dream. I need to tell you something big and everyone needs know and nobody can talk about it on Twitter because we can't get me in trouble.

What did you do? So I went on Bumble Bee KfW and I think I don't owe literally. That person just texted me, so that's fine. That's a sign. What is it? So I became friends with someone on Bumblebee Affinis. It's like the first one to hit it off. This is the first one who has made it past the.

Yeah, we just talked about how we both deleted the app.

Yeah, well here I am. I can't keep up with em. So she's passed the test on bumble conversations. She graduated to Hey, let's exchange social media. Oh. And then she graduated. So here's my number. And we've been texting homies. Cousin is friends with the Scarlet, which I know. And when I tell you who's the Scarlet Witch?

What's that?

I just smile and nod on behalf of all the listeners who are like, I don't know what that is.

Don't worry, I don't either. But let's pretend.

Oh, my God, that's crazy. I know it's marble. It's marble. So I ate cheese. First of all, my new true love because. No, I told you a while ago, I kind of retired my love for mystery and I need it. So you literally never told me that, huh? Interesting. I've been telling a lot of people and I lose track, but yeah. Mystery I something happened. I fell out of love.

It was just a really intense love and it was, I think, bound to kind of hit a dead end. Was it the time that that one person that I won't mention because I also don't remember their name was like she's actually kind of a bitch. And you and I were like, why would you say that to us? Oh, it it was someone who might actually know her. Yeah.

And it was like a working relationship that we couldn't jeopardize. I was like, oh, could you maybe introduce us one day to Miss Brie? And they were like, I don't think you want that.

And I was like, oh, I was really rude. But also my heart note that wasn't there was genuinely something where I, I, I came to a realization where I was in love with Captain Marvel, played by mystery all herself. Got it.

So then I was like, oh, I got to love someone who isn't just a superhero. And then I found I was sleeping on. Let's be clear, Elizabeth Olsen. I always thought she was a cutie pie, but Miss Berry had my heart, so I wasn't paying attention. Love is blind, except not because I was looking. I'm sorry, but cut out in the background. Yeah, I think I was primed to love her because she was in my home all the time.

But I mean, Elizabeth Olsen has always been a honey and Scarlett, which is like very beautiful. Let's just leave it at that. I could go on and on and on. But so I within the last during quarantine, I have really discovered my my real feelings for her. And she's Scalia, and she's about she's like the next big brain melting sensation of Marvel, which comes out on Friday. It's like it's the first of like five Marvel TV series that are coming out that are all connected to the movies.

And it's going I'm not I know you don't care and I'm not going to care because you care.

Yes, but you wouldn't understand any of the words that come out of your mouth because they're like literally marvel alien words. But let's just say that this TV series won. Marvel in general is going to explain like ten different movies. It's like has things that are going to answer all these questions we've been having. And it's just me getting to look at Elizabeth Olsen for six hours anyway. Bumblebee, if person can maybe be my connection to her, that's pretty crazy, which means if we hung out out of politeness at some point, she'd have to be like, so what do you do for a living?

And then I'd have to mention the podcast. And then she'd like an Avenger, would know our podcast. And then I would also pray she wouldn't ever listen, especially to the. This is the hidden episode. Nobody can know. That's why I'm saying nobody even tag her as a joke, because, like, if I become friends with her, she can't know that this happened, that this conversation is out in the world. She can't know. Got to play it cool for it.

Yeah. For the chance at me getting to know an avenger and being one degree away from Captain America, please, God, don't mention this, but everyone just squeal together across the nation.

And I'm very happy. I'm very excited. This is very big news. Thank you for telling me. You're telling me.

OK, anyway. Wow, I just. OK anyway. How are you. Do we cancel the recording.

Are you OK? I'm not but we should cancel so I can breathe for a second anyway. Welcome to not try to drink where we tell the paranormal Intercrime story. I have a story for you Christine.

Which one would you like to hear it now.

A minute by water and rehydrate wetting my whistle. Yes, sir. OK, I got time. By the way, did you ever go here in Boston Virgina Pizzeria yet in Boston? Yeah, I was like, they have one in L.A.. Oh, yeah. I miss Boston Pizza. I miss Boston. I miss Boston pastries.

Oh, my God. I'm in Boston.

I really Boston cuisine. Great Italian mob. Italian. I like the Oggi Italian.

Oh, so good and polished would also you especially if you're in the north. In the north end and you go to that Virginia pizzeria, the original one if you are within walking distance of their meatball slice. I'm so fucking jealous of you.

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So I have a new hobby, which is it's not a new hobby, it's an old hobby. But I like to talk about it as if it were new. It's called Best Friends, and I play it constantly no matter what I'm doing. Guess what level?

I'm on a billion at this point. Where are you? I'm on level eight, 60. I'm like, wow, that really gave me chills.

Oh, my God, I'm so proud. And also, like, I'm pretty talented, I think. OK, well, if you want to be like Christine, if you like me and I'm on level like three hundred or something, which is the infamously impossible to put down puzzle game that's free to download. And with over 100 million downloads, this five star rated mobile puzzle game is a must play. So we all love a good puzzle, breastfeeds gives you over 5000 of them.

So I'm clearly nowhere even near completing all of these things on people that Christine hasn't even caught up to. You know, just beyond. I never I never thought I could get this far. I never thought I'd get to level eight hundred. But also, it's so like you just can't put it down.

So you really actually it is you might find yourself wondering how you ever had time for a dull moment before. It's like my go to now. I don't know how I functioned without it. And you can also download Westfields free today on the Apple App Store or Google Play. That's friends without the ah best fiends.

OK, here's your story. Christine, you waited long enough until this is this is a an urban. Feel like it's not right to call it an urban myth. It's kind of just a story. If my dad just texted me and said, I'm walking to your house with tea, you can't do that.

Oh, my God. About that. Have a guest appearance of birth or.

No, he says I'm walking across the bridge to Kentucky of, like, turn around. This is why you can't move closer to your know. And hey. Hi. I have a job where I'm home all the time. Pop on over.

OK, I just said I can't see you right now.

Everybody is cookies. What do I do. Why is he doing this?

Literally, I haven't seen him in weeks and all of a sudden he's like, I'm walking to your house from across the bridge, across the state line. I love you. But you chose this life. You chose it. You paid for it, too, because you literally moved across the country. I did. I'm going to say you were a poor place is going to like me and my father in law, Justin Cookies. Justin is talking about my dad.

It's like he's obsessed with he rides his bike around the bridge to come see me.

And I just and I'm glad I had my Texan here because he would have shown up and that would have been chaotic.

So what would have happened if I lived within walking distance of my father? He would not bring me cookies, that's for damn sure. I would I would try to bring him cookies and he'd text me to be like, get off my property like I knew he would.

He would remember when he discovered the cloud, he would just climb into the cloud and be like, get out, get off the cloud.

You just scream at me until I heard him on the cloud.

And then I'd be like, Oh, OK, Daddy, sorry. You hear this? My bad. It's OK. You're enjoying your bike and your cookies and your bike. Sounds like a sounds like a classic 60 year old man by the time you get that move, right.

Yeah, he loves his bike. So it was originally considered an urban myth. I'm going to say more. It's like a legendary location legend location just because it's got some historical stuff to it. But also, there's I'm just going to tell you what is I guess you can you can I can say Atlantis, but probably not. No, Atlantis, I think would be too big of a story for me to be downplaying like this. Not that this is an important story, but this is the this is me telling about Pyramid Lake.

What's that? So it's I don't know.

I keep trying to define it.

It's a location that happens to have some legends and lore to it. Let's just say, OK, so it's thirty five miles northeast of Reno, Nevada. Nevada always wins. So we update good news.

My dad says new estimated time of arrival is four. Thirty PM take me.

So now he's just waiting till we're done recording. Sorry, I just wanted I was sweating a lot, so I needed everyone to feel relaxed with me.

You know, the fact that he is giving you an ETA on the bridge, on the cloud ride on the bridge with your GTA.

I got to know birdies four for Bernie has to turn around on his bike on the bridge. Now you've given him a reason to ride again. You're right. Another ride, another bridge, another set of cold cookies. Now, I guess he doesn't make cookies. What is he talking about?

They're probably like fiber cookies or something coming from some one of your weird German bakeries where I couldn't pronounce anything.

So, OK, I say one one quick thing. Sorry for Christmas.

My dad gave me a he wrapped up a wine decanter and I was like, wow, that's really thoughtful because my dad no offense, but he gets really strange gifts that usually aren't applicable to lifers.

Do OK. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And so it's like, wow, a wine decanter that's kind of like thoughtful. And so I was like, thanks Dad. And he's like, well, did you open it? And I was like, what do you mean? He's like, well, open the box. And I was like, stop. What if it was filled with granola bars from Costco, like Kirkland, brand granola bars and dried blueberries, Kirkland brand Costco.

And I was like, Dad, why have you done this? And he was like, well, remember I told you I bought Halloween candy for all the kids and you refused to come pick it up?

Is that Halloween candy? That's literally what he gave out to children on Halloween has dried up.

How did he not wake up on November 1st? Egg and toilet paper.

All I'm telling you and I said I like I'm really busy. I can't pick up those candies you told me about. Oh, I never pick them up. So instead, for Christmas, months later, he put them in a wine decanter box to to fuckin get me when I'm, you know, my guard is down.

And then he it was filled with granola bars. And I was like, wait, so where's the wine decanter? He's like, oh, I'm using it for myself. And I was like, well, you don't drink. And he's like, I know I put my orange juice in it.

This man is so every father feels like they're kind of they're also wondering if they're senile, like they're sick of dancing around, putting things in places for no specific reason. You don't drink and you live alone.

And he was like, I know, but I put my orange juice in it anyway. I just had to say that because. When he says, I'm coming over with cookies, I'm like, are they cookies or are they blueberries from Costco? But are they all slates of stone by the pond, which is entirely possible.

It's always critical in Britain, though, so don't worry. I love a good Kerguelen Bread. He's he's got something there anyway. I'm so sorry. Please continue.

I think he should apologize. I think he certainly should apologize. I'm still waiting on that apology card and it has not arrived. Oh my gosh. You know, and always thought that whole time was like your brother is in danger because he is turning exactly into your father for for a logical reason.

He gave you a pinata of beans for your logical reason that he did put on the Internet and was like, it's hilarious. And everyone was like, literally, what are you doing? He knows that he should film his mistakes and screw up with uses it for for entertainment value and YouTube views.

You should just do a thing where you start giving your dad as weird of shit as they do and just see what his reaction is because it might make total sense is like, oh, a pinata of beans.

I don't know how to do it. And she'd be like, this is perfect. It would be OK. Well, I gave him a yo yo because I always try really hard with my gifts for him.

And usually it's kind of like, oh, that's nice, OK, but this year I was like, you know what, I'm going to give my yo yo, I feel like you would like a yo yo. So I gave my yo yo not knowing what would happen.

He opened that yo yo.

He started walking around the house with it and he goes, Did I ever tell you about Billy Panama? And I was like, What? And he's like, Billy Panama came to my town in Germany and he did all these yo yo tricks on stage and he had a free bike for anyone who could do the same yo yo tricks.

So, yeah, I mean, I guess if you could just like, give your dad something random, your father sounds like if he grew up in like the twenties, he would have been like that guy who always spoke and scat or rhymes just like that. They would disappear into the shadows after he get weird hat.

Yeah, OK.

Anyways, a lot like Jesus Christ Dad, stop interrupting.

You have his. He needs to be involved at all points by the way. That's a problem. Yes. OK, I'm looking fully.

Tell him the next time I hear from him I want a scat about beans and pinatas and he's going to say what is a pinata?

And then at the end he'll go, Happy Halloween. OK, pyramid.

Like it's thirty five miles northeast of Reno. Let's try the fourth word of my notes again. Nevada. Yeah, I was going to say Nevada. OK, fun fact about Pyramid as it's also one of the iPad's home screens. Oh, fun fact and fun fact. Here's a fun one. One of the most famous home screen pictures is called Bliss, and it was taken in ninety six and then in two thousand six, here is one of my deep dives.

Can you tell. And then in twenty six as a ten year anniversary, he, the photographer took the same picture.

Is it the drop the water drop.

No I don't think so, but it's a side. But you can do like a side by side and see how they out for ten years anyway.

So Pyramid Lake is fun. Facts about the lake is that it is one hundred twenty five thousand acres, which makes it one of the largest natural lakes in the state. And another fun fact is it's only 10 percent of the area of the Great Salt Lake and Utah, but it holds twenty five percent more volume.

Real hot. Oh, hell, I don't know.

OK, I don't know. They're not a scientist. But anyway, so it's smaller but deeper, I suppose. OK, does that make sense?

Yeah, sure. OK, not a scientist. OK, so the Pyramid Lake is also the only habitat in the entire world for a specific type of fish that's been around for over two million years. Oh, the fish are called we know kwe we query. OK, OK. So that that name comes into play in a second. So the native people who lived here originally were called the Paiute tribe and their traditional name was actually Quealy.

Oh really. Tarcutta I think. And it meant like that type of fish eaters. So they ate that fish. Love it. So that was their original name or what they called themselves. I guess I'm not really totally sure what a traditional name is, but we now know them historically as the Paiute tribe. OK, so they lived there blissfully until eighteen forty four and then fucking white men happened. They always do. Specifically the one of the guys, his name was John C.

Fremont who discovered it. Yes, it thanks to all the people there and said I found this and you know what I found.

I imagine if you're holding candy oh, I'm sorry, like a trescott or whatever, your dad is dried blueberries, and then I grab them out of your hand and then I give them back and say, look, I found these for you. I also sort of giving them back. I kill you. Yeah. And that's a great analogy you just created there. Really. I don't even know if I'm not a historian. OK, OK. But I'm not a historian, but I know enough to say that white men and 1840 for John C.

Fremont, quote, discovered it and named it Pyramid Lake. So I don't like that it's named what, a white guy with the coloniser, if I can called it. But that is what we call it and call it free Montlake.

But OK, even then. So apparently Pyramid Lake, he picked that name with his big genius man brain because there was a pyramid shaped rock in the lake and wow. But the rock itself was called Tufo Rock. So I would you just fucking call Tufa Lake then if you wanted to be. It's a big old pyramid. Well, that's why. So the lake also was the site of the Pyu war or the Pyramid Lake war between the Northern Paiutes and the colonizers.

So when that area was being settled or I guess and the northwest area of Nevada, when it was being settled, it was no surprise, a massive disruption to the Pyu people in terms of their food and grazing lands. And so, like, let's not forget the fact that the colonizers were kidnapping and assaulting. I'm just saying that word. So no one feels triggered, but very aggressively assaulting the women and girls in that tribe. So in retaliation, the pirates decided that they were going to raid one of the colonisers businesses.

It was called the Williams station. It was basically like a saloon stagecoach, like a stagecoach station. And a general store hybrid is like all three of those things on one. So they decided they're going to raid Williams station. And the raid happened on May 6th. Eighteen sixty seventy six colonizers died. And we don't know how many pirates died, but we know up to five hundred forty. Oh wow. So we don't and we don't even know the zero to five hundred and I'm guessing it's not right.

So people say this is kind of like one of the little ghostly tales of of this is that people say that you can still see the colonizers from this battle riding around the lake. Also, another thing about the lake is that its original lake that it was a part of. So I think this is just like a small part of a once bigger lake. It was called Lake Lewontin. And that lake or the lake, as we know it now, was formed about two million years ago, around the same time that those fish showed up.

It I really didn't like it when this place was bigger. But we like that. It's cozy, you know. So just this part, I'm not sure about Lake Lowenstern or its history or why we only talk about this part of that lake now. But according to Pyu legend, Pyramid Lake was actually made from the tears of Stone Mother. Oh, and so I'm going to tell that legend. That's very interesting. I just I never heard of it.

So I refer to the man as man because I don't know his name. I just said man the whole time. So also because there was a quote I was going off of for the story. I tried to paraphrase it, but the first sentence was there was a man known as the father of all natives in the area. And so I just called him in. So he was known as the father of all natives. He came to the area and he lived in the mountains.

And while he was here, he met a woman in town. And this woman liked him but was married to someone else named Bear, which is a dope name.

That's my dad's nickname is by Bear.

Just fun fact. Fun fact for everybody. Little Birdie Bear. He sends his emails with a emoji of a bear he discovered, which is just here eats and he loves it.

That's actually pretty heart melting really. Stop there. When you are introducing him to people, it is the guy who signs himself as an emoji. Also try something else happens.

I try, but he shows up on his bike and I'm like, I can't control his actions, you know. Wow, not that I know.

Anyway, sorry.

There got the man who's the father of all meets this woman when he comes into the area and the woman likes him, likes him, but she already married to bear. I guess they're having some troubles at home and she's looking for a way out. And Bear could sense this. He was very jealous of the man. Oh no. So one day Bear and the woman got in a fight, I assume, over the man. I'm not sure, though, and she ended up winning the fight, she knocked him down and killed him with a club.

Oh, boy, oh, boy, women. And she ran off and she was like, I'm going to go find the man. And she knew that he lived in, I think is called Stillwater Mountain and the area, she's like, I'm going to go find him. So during her, let me I feel like my mouth feels dry, which means people's ears are probably bleeding. So let me. Oh, I don't hear it.

But you do you. So part of the legend is is all of her travels and what she experiences on her quest to find the man in the mountain. Sure. One of them happens to be that she found a giant who wanted to eat her. So she killed him by turning him into stone. So she's two for two on the murder so far. Oh, no, but she turned him into stone and you can apparently still see him today. So there's a rock formation that's known as the giant that tried to kill the woman.

So finally she gets to Stillwater Mountain where the man is. And once she sees him, she hides from him because she's afraid that he won't like her back. Oh, so which is very good. It's like very somehow typical behavior of what all of us have done at some point. Worked hard to get to that one thing. But then you won't follow through at the end. Yep. Yep. You're too scared. So so she is hiding and at some point he sees the woman's tracks and is like, can you just come out?

I know someone's hiding.

You're not great.

It feels like in high school when you like, hide behind your own locker, but you're also much wider than a locker and everywhere.

And like your feet are on the ground. Yeah. Wide open and an empty hall. And I feel like eyes like. I see. I see.

So she climbs out of her little hiding spot and he sees that she's really tired from her travel. Ask her to stay in a few months any food. And while he's feeding her, he asks her to stay with him in the mountains. I think that means and definitely not like, hey, you want to hook up? I think it means more intimate than, like, you trying to not grow up with them. Yeah. Yeah.

When the whistle I think it's hot the whistle. I don't want to even do that because my whistle isn't quite enough.

Don't do that. Never one. She ends up staying the night. But first of all, imagine I, I'm sure there's like some really like wonderful part to this legend. But the way that I was trying to paraphrase it makes it sound like it's like kind of sillier than it might be. Or maybe it's meant to be silly. I'm not totally sure of the context here, but I got a chuckle out of it. I don't know how I'm supposed to.

So sorry if that's offensive, but he asks her to stay the night, but then she refuses to be anywhere near him. So she sleeps outside by the fire. And then every night that she stays, she gets closer and closer to him every night. She can't trust him, but it was just like she's sleeping by the fire and then she won't go in the house, but she's sleeping by the door. And it's like, oh, I'm imagining like this guy's perspective of like, wow, I invited this girl to stay.

And like her date are, I guess if it's not supposed to be a hookup or whatever, but imagine having someone stay over for the first time and she's like, I'm going to fall asleep on the floor by the door over here outside in the front room at that point.

It's OK. I'll see you tomorrow.

But anyway, as time goes on, she gets closer and closer, almost as if she's learning to trust him more and more. And when I say as time goes on, I mean five days alone, like not even not even a full week by the fifth day she marries him. Oh, OK. So her trust level went from literally negative a million to a thousand real quick. So I guess he was doing something right. She was probably like this guy doesn't think I'm weird for sleeping by the fire.

So I guess it's a great test. She was testing him all along. Ladies, ladies and gays. If Gazidis in ladies, why am I saying that if you really want to test your man, sleep outside on your first night together and he's not welcome the further away sleep outside the sounds exhausting and cold. That's actually that's the newest version. That's nice with twenty one thinking right there. OK, so kick him out of his own house, make him sleep in nature and sleep on his bed comfy.

And then in five days if it works you know he's there. Yeah. Yeah. If you're that quick to rush into things and I'll tell anyone we told you to do that because it seems like terrible. Another thing, you should not tag us in on Twitter after the. Yes. So anyway, they get married, they have kids, I guess on day six at this point. But their first born is a like a troublemaker, like not not a cool dude.

Apparently they have a lot of kids. A few of them are troublemakers and a few of them are not. And one day the troublemakers and the non troublemakers started getting in a fight. Are they just. Sibling banter and the man got really frustrated and decided he was going to separate them, which like that sounds fair, like, OK, you know, in this corner you go in this corner, time out, time out. As in like you go over there and take a breather and later you come back.

No, no. To separate them. Oh, no. So this is a quote from him, which sounds exactly like something my fuckin mother would say to me. I want you to think of the most culturally Jewish woman with her wonderful ability to guilt her child into anything. Ready? I'm ready.

I'm going to separate you now. I shall go up to my home in the sky. And when you die, you will come to me.

I will be in my home, in the sky. And I want you to think about what you've done to send me the Bible. That was like think of your dead mother while you disappoint me while you're out, you're sending me to an early grave. Oh, my God. It's the most motherly guilt trip ever. But there are so many times in my childhood where I can think of the most inconvenience I gave my mother.

And I'm going to die one day. And you know what? Oh, my God.

All right. I'm not alone here. I feel like there's quite a few cultures where there are it's known like, oh, your mother's going to really make you fucking hate yourself for it.

Oh, yeah. Oh, good. I'll still tell her today. I'm like, you destroyed me. And she'll be like, I did nothing also I that's all right. So don't say things like that to me. How could you even do such a thing.

Yeah, my mother still is like I would never say that. And I'm like, what do you think does make it all up?

She's like, Yes, but I think you invented my mom's like, where did I go wrong? And I'm like, yeah, let me count the ways. Like that scroll that weighs fifty pounds wrote letter her to this guy or whatever the hell. I mean this couldn't sound more like my mother. And when I say I couldn't I don't mean like hypothetically.

This is something my mother said to me and you go to my house, the sky, I'm going to die now because I can't tolerate you. And when you feel bad, bye then. OK, here's the full quote. I'm going to separate you now. I shall go to my home in the sky. When you die, you'll come to me. All you have to do is then it gets like really existential. All you have to do is follow the dusty road, which apparently is the Milky Way.

You will reach my home where I shall be waiting someday. I hope that you will all come to your senses and live together in peace. So, like. Yeah, exactly. That's how they get you. Christine is.

Oh no, it's working it Whitman High and this is an even manipulative or toxic.

But also I'm going to finish this off with something that's warm and now what are you going to do anyway. Bye anyway. I'm going to get away with it one hundred more times in your childhood. OK, so true. Like old school father fashion, he takes the troublemaker kids and tells them to go west and then they never come back.

Oh, I guess it was like get the troublemakers out of here. The ones that haven't caused me trouble. You can stay, but then they have this additional guilt because he's like, take care of your mother and then he basically fires, OK? He walks up the mountains by himself and eventually walks so high he reaches the sky. And I think that's kind of like leaving Earth easily for sure. But it's just like, OK, you go over there, never return.

You take care of your mother because I'm not here anymore. Also, I'm going to die. Catch me when you can be later. But I mean, it's just like I know that this I'm not trying to poke too much fun at this story, but it's just like that particular part. I read it and like even though I read it in the middle of the night and I was like, am I reading my diary?

You're reading my diary. Walk up the Milky Way and you'll find this is the dusty road leads.

It's a green balearic, actually. But it was I mean, it's a I understand the message. It's that's not totally passing me. But it was just like I was really invested in this story. But then it was a bunch of sharp turns of like, she's outside, but then they're married, but then they have kids. But then the dad goes into the sky. Goodbye. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it is very relatable. Wow. I really if I really hope I'm not upsetting anybody by poking fun at it, I don't at all mean that it's not.

And no, it's a great story. It's just I'm seeing some inconsistencies and it's kind of wild anyway. So the the troublemakers who went off to the West, that story tells the history of how the Pitt Rivers tribe was created, apparently because the all the people out west, they originally came from this area, but then they moved west. So, oh, I think I hope I'm not butchering that. But the story goes that the children who went off built their own tribe and they became the rivers.

But then the people who stayed home are the people who became the pirates.

The good guys, by the way, I love that they're like, where the not in trouble. Yes, I. I didn't I read that too. And I was like. I wonder if there's a little like friendly rivalry, but oh, but so anyway, he walks up the mountains and up into the sky, so the pilots, the children that we're still at home, they were apparently still not making any trouble. They were strung together as a family.

But the whole time the mother mourned over her children who went west. I mean, she lost four kids. Right. Which also then like let's talk about the toxic father figure there of like, I'm going to rip your children away from you. Oh, true. Which I don't even know if that's something that was considered at this time, but I read it in the mindset of a twenty, twenty one person. And I was like, oh, I don't know about that.

Yeah, it's troubling. But so she mourned her children going out west and never coming back. She cried and cried and cried and she apparently cried more and more each day. So one day the woman goes out to the mountain and she's looking towards the pit riverlands. And she just sat there and cried until her tears formed a lake which became pyramids. Oh, I just got little goose cam.

I know. So she sat there and cried for so long that she herself turned to stone and she still sits there to this day. And there is a rock formation at Pyramid Lake called Stone Mother. Wow. That's such a quarry. Yeah.

I mean, it becomes really powerful. I mean, it's, it's, it's so anyway, it tells the story of how this lake came to be is what I was trying to get at. So another fun fact is apparently on the longest day of the year, the public near Pyramid Lake will all gather together or they're invited to gather. I don't know if this is like a real annual thing or it's I'm not sure how often it really happens. But the public is known to gather around Stone Mother and the Pyramid Lake area to pray for healing, which is really so.

Oh, so there's an anthropology paper called Questions of Sovereignty. Pyramid Lake in the Northern Paiutes struggle for water and rights. And so here is a quote from some of the Paiute tribe council members. As of twenty ten, the water is our life are being was created by the stone mother. It has always been our main goal to take care of the water creatures. The lake is everything. The lake provides a spiritual foundation for our people and every aspect of the lake is tied into our lives, faith and identity.

So the water is super important. Beautiful.

Yeah, and it's the Pyramid Lake is still known to have like crystal clear water and really amazing fishing. But because it's still a reservation, you need a permit to even visit. So I think that's one of the reasons why it's probably so well preserved because you can't just waltz on over. And that's probably for the best. Yeah, for sure. So the lake is also full of some more mysterious oohs and ahs. Mainly Pyramid Lake is said to have been the home of or still the home of a mermaid.

Oh oh oh oh. By the way, follow us on Cameo, everyone, I just got a notification that someone asked for a cameo. Oh, nice. I didn't know. It's. Never mind, OK.

I was just going to get on on a rant, and I'm just like trying to try to look professional here. We were doing a great job, but no. So anyway, if you would like a personal shout out from us, you can put us on Cameo. Shameless plug. Yeah. So many, many of the legends have something to do with either a mermaid or a mermaid like creature. So apparently the native legend to this is that the mermaid was this gorgeous mermaid, lady Lady Fish, and she married a member of one of the locals and the Paiute tribe.

They were madly in love, but the tribe disapproved of them being together and banished the mermaid to keep her away from one of their own and her husband. Oh, OK. So she was super bitter, obviously, and vowed revenge on any member of the tribe. Whoever comes near Pyramid like a vengeful lady fish sounds terrifying.

Hell hath no fury like a woman fashion scorned. I say it, I've said it before.

Or a lady fish scorned. Oh, shit. Look, you know, I have the confidence, I'm sure. And this is also extremely dangerous.

I had the bravado and that's what matters. So, I mean, I, I felt it in my soul, you know. I mean, did. So leave me alone. OK, OK. Well, so apparently. Yeah. So a vengeful mermaid who is not a fan of the pirate tribe. Right. Is what I'm taking away from that. She's still said to wander the shores, which makes me wonder how she's wandering without legs. But maybe she's just kind of swimmin in the low tide rolling around.

Oh, God. She is apparently always waiting for someone of the pirate tribe to appear and do some sort of bad luck on them, I suppose, or so. Apparently, the pirates who live near the area, though, or at least in today's world, have a different version, or at least according to the Pirate Tribe Museum. And they also have a visitor center. They say the story is different where this literally starts on the California coast.

And while on a family vacation, a Paiute man met and fell in love with a mermaid like creature from Cali. Oh, my God.

Oh, M.G., those Cali girls will get you every time like, OMG, are you a pirate? I love you. So unforgettable days.

Spooky. Yeah. You know, I know where that song was actually written about a mermaid, so. That's right. That's what Snoop said. That's I, I said, you hear me. Oh. Said it to you first. OK, I got it. Yeah. So yeah. So a pirate man fell in love with a mermaid like creature so I'm not sure how mermaid she was. Maybe she was just like one of those girls who loves mermaid stuff a little bit.

Oh the sushi where she laid on the thing and they put like she decorates her whole home with like seashells. It's probably what it is. Maybe.

So he proposed to her and brought her to Pyramid Lake to meet his tribe, but they told him to bring her back to the sea. Yikes.

Oh, ouch. What what a harsh thing to say.

And so apparently she curse them. And soon after this happened to pirate, women were washing their clothes in the river. One of them had a baby with them. And she so she kept the baby kind of perched under a tree while they were washing their clothes in the river just to keep an eye on the baby. Hmm. Apparently, at one point when they weren't looking, this snake thing came out of the river.

Oh, this is where I get confused because I thought we were talking about a mermaid. But now now it's turned into a snake. OK, well, mermaid like mermaid like scales. It's a snake. It's actually a lord.

You fell in love with a large snake. Let's all just say it. Well, if she was cursing then maybe she had it. She was, personality wise, a snake, you know, like they tweet out or emoji when like snake in the grass snake the snake in the lake. That's what I always know.

Also maybe part demon. Oh, okay.

That's good. I don't know how we're going to frame that into the theory we just came up with I.

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So, OK, just to recap, because it's a lot. So this specific story goes that a guy brought the mermaid to his tribe. They said bring her back to sea and she curse them. And soon after those two women who are washing clothes in the river, one with a baby under the tree, there was a snake that came out of the water when they weren't looking.

Who ate the baby? Oh. Oh, my God.

Then we think it's like magical or demonic in some way because the snake then turned into a baby.

Oh, well.

So it took its place like shapeshifting. It made it look like it was their baby. The mermaid ate a snake, became a snake. The baby baby.

Oh my God. You just solve history, OK? I mean, maybe that's just the story and we just didn't get it. But I mean, that makes more sense than anything that was going on in my head, which was a tumbleweed.

So the snake forms into the baby. So the the women don't know that anything ever happened to the baby. Yeah. After they've washed their clothes, the woman that was the baby's mother decides, oh, my baby needs to be breastfed. So she puts this snake demon baby oh. Up to her naked chest and it bites down with a real vengeance. Oh no. Oh no. And now we have a true crime on our hands.

So basically it's so bad that they now run from the river to the tribe. Imagine having a baby and a baby snake hybrid biting down on you. They're so silly that you also run.

Oh, God, you are public and everyone sees this thing flying off of you.

And so all the tribe members are desperate to release the baby's grip off of her, but they can't do it all. For a medicine man who apparently made a deal with the snake, the medicine man was like, that looks like a demon. I got it and told the snake, if the woman can be fine, you let go of the woman and she's restored back to health, then you can be free to live in the lake and we won't bother you.

OK, so the first story is kind of like there's a mermaid that is in the water. The second story I told us that a something serpent's mermaid like is in the water but was banished to the water and Usher agreed with it, made a deal with the devil. But in both versions it's something mermaid like and it's a dark presence or provides a curse. Right. So that's one creature that they think is in the lake. Another creature that's in the lake.

They are called water babies. Oh, have you heard of this? It sounds really familiar. Yes. There's a reason you might think it sounds familiar. OK, so water babies, apparently these are humanoid creatures with webbed hands. So they move through the water. Yes. Which also sounds kind of mermaid like. So I'm not sure if water, babies and mermaids are separate in terms of creatures in the lake or if they're seen as two different creatures that live amongst each other.

Right. But it's a it's a humanoid water creature. They are said to be vengeful and they're said to be responsible for all negative events. So like equipment malfunctions or boating accidents or disappearances. So it might actually probably it sounds similar to the mermaid thing. So that might this might just be their theory of what the creature is. Some say that the water babies target fishermen and drown them, which is terrible. But there was a YouTube video about water babies and one of the commenters said.

Water babies just want to hug you around the neck, right under the water. Now, that sounds about right. You're spot on.

And some also say that if you hear or see a water baby, you'll just have bad luck. And others say that they are known to steal children. Oh, good. I mean, they really run the gamut. Either it's bad luck or like horrible crimes against your children. Yeah. So that's why apparently one of the legends is a lot of people will say they hear a crying baby near the lake and you try to go save it. But they're looking into the water to drown you.

Oh, no. So the water babies apparently take three different forms. There's the younglings, the Braves and the elders. So it just kind of sounds like they're paging over time. But. Right. The younglings apparently are known as chubby, not really pretty, but they have an irresistible charm.

And I was like, OK, you don't have to really call me Evan, Kirsti. And so and apparently as they get older, they become prettier. So like the baby, they're like literally said, not as pretty as the elders. Oh, OK. RWD the Braves are androgenous teenagers. I was like, OK, sounds like everyone else these days. Yeah. They like lightweight clothes that are easy to slip off so they can get into the water faster checks out and they are amongst all three of the types of water babies.

They are the most good, they are the most likely to punish people for doing something wrong. They'll play harmless pranks. There's one story that people went out and had traps for foxes and stuff. And when they woke up the next morning, all the boxes were stacked like it was just like, you know, like that.

And I'm sure that maybe in some way that was punishing wrongdoing because you were catching animals or something. I'm not I'm not really sure. But they do little pranks and they're the least likely to harm you. And then there's the elders that are also androgynous and drift in and out of consciousness for most of their time. They're more concerned with the spirit world than the physical.

Oh, OK. Yeah, so interesting. If you see a water baby, that's what each of them are about. I guess each of them will also drown you.

I'm not totally sure which one is the one that's going to hurt you. I would imagine the youngling since they're the ones that look the most like babies. Right. But maybe they just become less they have less murder, homicidal tendencies as they age. That's nice. So fun fact water babies aren't just in Pyramid Lake, but apparently they're also in a random area of Idaho on a thing called massacre rocks. Oh, dear.

Which like it sounds like a terrible band does, but it's so these rocks are called massacre rocks in Idaho.

And there it's also said to be haunted by water babies, actually. So in the two places where they're best known, they are said to haunt those areas, this area. Just to give some information real quick, when the natives lived there, there was severe famine and the villagers decided they didn't have enough food anymore to feed new mouths and just to try to fill in why it's called massacre rocks. So as new babies were being born, because they already decided there wasn't enough food left to feed these mouths, if women were having babies, they were forced to go drown them.

Oh, God. So that they wouldn't end up dying anyway from starvation. It was seen as like the switch. Yeah. Yeah. So apparently there it's also haunted because fishermen will hear babies crying at night and they'll go in to save them. And it's one of the reasons that that law has stayed consistent is because allegedly every spring there's at least one fisherman who drowns and the law kind of continues through that. I it could just be, but it's likely someone's going to drown if enough people are out in the water every spring, but they it gets perpetuated.

So anyway, why you might think that water baby sounds similar or familiar to you is because it was actually a kids movie in nineteen seventy eight.

So it was an older movie for us, but it was from the UK and then it came to the USA or later. But it was one of those really cool back when they just discovered like how to do live action and put cartoons in the live action. So it looked like like a Roger Rabbit situation. It was one of those movies. Here's the synopsis. This is from Wikipedia. You can just go find this, but I just wanted to read the storyline of Water Babies to you when a twelve year old chimneysweep, a twelve year old chimney sweep.

Right.

They were they were little because they had to climb through the chimney. They had to be children, usually because they had to get in the chimney. Sorry.

Fun fact. That is a fun fact. Let's go. Child labor laws. But OK. Well, yeah. So when a twelve year old chimney sweep named Tom is wrongfully blamed for being a thief, he makes a run for it with his dog. Toby, and they end up jumping into a river. I think what the synopsis isn't saying in between sentences is that they might have almost drowned. They encounter anthropomorphic underwater creatures. And before he can return to the surface and clear his name, Thomas rescue his friends, the water babies from the enslavement of sharks.

Yikes.

I'm like, oh, it's like, oh, you're like that's how Christine knows these things. Like what? On God's green earth. I saw a picture of the actual movie and it looked really fucking creepy. And I was like, this looks like something. Bernie the bear, by the way, would just like played on you in your house.

Oh, yeah. He did try to find the most dramatic films and just play them over and over.

I'm looking it up whatever is dried blueberries and watched a movie about the enslavement of water rescues from hearable. I'm looking at it now and I'm actually frightened now.

I doesn't know what something Renata and Bernie would give it to, something all my German relatives probably watch in Dubbed in German, which makes it even scarier. Looks like a cautionary tale about maybe drowning or child labor laws or private, but heaving from chimneys. Yeah, I mean, there's a lot of power here. Oh God. So that movie was actually based on a book from the eighteen sixties. Oh, so Charles Kingsley wrote the book The Water Babies A Fairy Tale for a Land Baby, which I think is hysterical.

That's cute. And the book was originally actually like a satire. I think it was like, like a weekly article or something. It was like meant for a magazine. And they it would they would write in these little passages about the water babies. And then eventually it became its own book. And that book is what inspired the movie. OK, but the whole point of it ever even being created in the eighteen sixties or why they were writing the satire for this as an entry for this magazine, the water babies were originally a way for the author Charles Kingsley, to support Darwin during the time that the Origin of Species came out.

Interesting. OK, I'm not going to get into it, but let's just say it is outdated. It is it some it's from the eighteen sixties. A few several groups of people might feel insulted by the things. Oh OK, great.

But anyway, so the, the actual book itself is about Tom, a young chimneysweep who falls into a river and has turned into a water baby and is given a bunch of different moral life lessons and then when he passes the test, he becomes a human again. OK, what I thought was funny about this, because I was reading the synopsis, I just pulled all this about the book from Wikipedia. You can go find this if you'd like, but you know how in all these, like, fairy tale stories, there's like a wizard or like a wise sage that's supposed to guide.

So, oh, God, what was it? They were they were three fairies and the fairies names were Mrs Do as you would be done by. No stop it Mrs be done by us. You did shut up. And Mother Kerry or rather Kerry.

OK, we have enough golden rule you show up. Oh poor thing. Anyway another couple little like fun quips I like from those from the book is that apparently after he becomes human again, there's another main character in the book named Ellie and it said that they never get married because in fairy tales the trope of the prince and the princess get married. In the book, it says that Tom and Ellie never got married because, quote, in fairy tales, no one beneath a prince or princess ever marries.

And I was like, that's a weird jab at fairy tales, but also funny.

Yeah, OK, I guess. And so I thought that was an interesting way to end it versus like they lived happily ever after. It is instead of happily ever after, Tom became a great man of science. OK, OK. And since then it has been adapted into multiple musicals and radio series.

So why are people obsessed with these water babies? They're freaking me out on set. So anyway. Well before. Before and I'll say so. Pyramid Lake was fed by the Truckee River. This is just like another weird little theory. And people are like, what? I don't understand how this is possible. OK, it's fed through by the Truckee River, which is basically outflow from Lake Tahoe. So, OK, Lake Tahoe, Truckee River. And then it feeds into Pyramid Lake from the south, but it only comes in that way.

But then Pyramid Lake doesn't have an outlet after that. So the water all becomes evaporation over time. So there's no water that would be passing through on the other end. But bodies that have disappeared at Pyramid Lake are being found in other bodies of water where water isn't flowing to have brought the body. They're wet. So they're like, if it's evaporating, there's no water to push it into the area. Finding the bodies later has happening, so they're not totally sure.

So like a couple of most of the bodies. Resurface in Lake Tahoe, which is like over 60 miles away, and they're like, how the fuck is this happening? The rumor is that there must be underground tunnels that we don't know of that are connected to bodies of water. But there's no real. The one of the local rumors is that Jacques Cousteau himself explored this lake in the 70s and whatever he saw down there, we're assuming the these tunnels are he was exploring them like a little mini submarine in the 70s.

And when he came back up, he was like really obviously shaken by whatever. And they were like, what's going on? And he said, this world isn't ready for what's down there.

Right. OK, now, but that is a fun way to kind of get some notoriety. You just go somewhere and turn around and go, you're not ready. And I was like, what did she see?

I hope Couso was just taken that submarine ride and was down there so fucking bored. And when he woke up, actually, I'm going to freak everyone out. Yes. Ever say a goddamn word?

That's just like the ultimate move. But just to confirm that, though, there are other divers in Pyramid Lake who have been said to have their diving gear ripped off unexplainably. Oh, dear. And they've apparently these divers also said you don't want to see what I saw down there.

So, OK, I love how everyone's like I saw it, but I'm not going to tell you, you know. No, no, that's not how it works. Most equipped therapists on Earth can't rattle me. So anyway, whatever's down there maybe is attributed to underground tunnels or how things are getting moved through the lake. There's the mermaids, there's the water babies. There's also last but not least, their version. I feel like every fucking lake has one of these assister monster to Nessy to lock.

Oh, yes. And so this is the taho tessy. Oh, I've heard of that.

So just to do a quick little feature on Tessy, it dates back to the Paiutes and apparently even the pilot said the Tessy was so I don't know if they called probably all tests.

You know, they said this creature was so highly regarded that speaking of them was unthinkable, like it was just something you didn't fucking. Wow, OK, get out of your mouth.

I wonder if that is connected to, like, the serpent thing. That is bad luck. Oh, true, true, true, true. Oh, maybe they were like, we just don't even want to test it. No. Apparently if you did talk about the creature, it could cause blindness or death.

Oh, well, I mean, that explains it. I mean, that alone sounds like bad luck to me. Fun fact. Tesi is still spotted today, but there was some sources that say that you can only see Tessy in June during the even numbered years.

OK, it's interesting.

OK, more believable and more believable in one way and a lot less believable in another way.

Yeah, it's strange. Yeah, it's unique. Also, the sightings are the people that still see them or report seeing something say that it's a snake like being that surfaces and then disappears again into the water. So very Nessy tendencies. Yeah. One of the local business owners actually saw Tessy in the mid eighties while doing a commercial shoot, which had to probably be very fun. Oh yeah. People describe this thing as a large snake up to twenty feet.

And some have reported that the monster makes WACs in the water the size of a boat. So boat sized wake's next to boats is pretty terrifying. And the thing that's most interesting is a lot of people have reported that it has a surprisingly small head for how big its body is. And and that head moves up and down on like a snake that would move from side to side. How true. So that's why they think it's serpents like but they don't want to call it a 20 foot snake, which either way, I don't know which one.

I would prefer the same. Same both bad.

So there are so many reports of tessy that Pyramid Lake ended up ah Lake Tahoe in general ended up being the place that was decided on for the location of a global conference in 2004 where they did discuss things like Tessy in one of their in one of their lectures about unidentified swimming objects or us.

Oh, love them. Apparently all these creatures can be identified as USA's love, in which I wish like two hundred ten episodes ago I knew because that would have explained, that would have helped me explain a lot of things. If the theory about underwater tunnels is true, this is something they talked about at the structure. If the theory about underwater tunnels is true, then that could explain that one. There might be more than one tessy and two, it could explain how we only see them sometimes because they might have another home and they just travel back and forth as they please.

Now, again, just like Nessy, a lot of people think that the most likely thing is that Tesi is either mud in the water or a freshwater eel or probably a large sturgeon, which it's always a sturgeon, which at this moment I would also like. To call out the person on Reddit who was very obviously trying to give me like a subtle, not so subtle wave because I follow my Christian stories, obviously. So the daggers have there's a one called Dugher Snark on Reddit that I'm that I follow.

It's just a bunch of people like me who watch them out of horror and someone. So I told you last time we talked about sturgeons. Yeah. That one of the doggers had a baby and named him Spurgeon. And then we had a whole episode called The Surge Sturgeon named. Right. Right. I went in Dugher Snark within the last month, posted about that Ducker's child and literally referred to him as the surgeon surgeon named Spurgeon's. Oh. And I was like, I see what you're up to.

I am not going to call myself out, though, because I don't want people knowing what my username on Reddit is.

But I do want you to know that I heard Water Baby before or rice pudding night and I'm always crazy for forfour up, but but yeah.

So I did see what you did there. I recognize you and I hear you, but I am not going to out myself on Reddit. Thank you. Amazing. And that's the story of Pyramid Lake with a cameo from Pessah and the surgeons bourgeoning Spurger and water babies.

Yeah. And water. I love that you mentioned Truckee River because as I was looking at the water babies picture, which looks like a creepy baby doll floating in the water, I was thinking about Truckee, who is my sister's doll, when she was a baby, she named her doll Truckee, and she will drag it around by its feet and just like throw it and stuff.

And so she would freak out any time anybody, like, went near it or like took it C or anything like that. And then she would like hurl it across the room and my mom would go on Siska like, treat her nicely.

And she's like, she's just a doll mom.

But then, you know, if if she wanted to keep her seat or whatever, she'd be like, you're hurting truckies feelings.

I love how she would use it as like almost like a like, you know, little kids are just the devil. Yeah. This manipulation tool of like, oh, wait until it's going to help me out until I need it to be a real person.

Yeah, but truck is what she named it all and then she would get new dolls and every single one was named Chucky. So now we call dogs truck. So when you said truck I was like looking at the water babies and going like this is too close to home. I have.

And I was going to say we as a collective, I'm an only child, though, so just I've been to help.

And I in the in the house growing up when I was a little kid, me and my parents would call blankets Bujar because apparently before I, I would call blankets Bujar before I could say blanket and they knew I was talking about blankets because any time I would point at something and wanted or I would be screaming for a blanket, the only thing that would stop me from crying is that they gave me a blanket after I was calling out for a blowjob.

Right. And so, yeah, blankets are because I have no idea how it's spelt.

I like to think there's three Zis and a silent you tell me. Oh I love it. Sounds like Bujji a little close. I never even thought of that. But that's the first thing that came to my mind. I was like, you would. Oh, I was thinking like Jorge. Like Azha. Yeah. Bujji and Jorge. If we get me a budget next year that says Bujji and I could have a budget, I'm going to take my fucking mind and you have to judge it up because it's the Fab Five are coming over.

Bedazzle it. And we would have that is judge your Bujji boot. Oh, my God. This is my, my, my. You can just go to do your thing. I'm losing it. Holy crap.

I don't know what happened there. My brain really just really overwhelmed. Oh, that happens on the set. OK, so I have a story for you that I've wanted to cover for a long time. And it is a an Ohio story and it is the kidnapping of Michelle Knight, Amanda Berry and Gina DeJesus in Cleveland, Ohio.

OK, I don't know.

I was hoping it would be something I knew you might know it when we start talking about it timeline wise, because it was huge news a few years ago and it was pretty dramatic when it happened.

So maybe you'll remember. But OK, so who I know real quick, I really I'm diggin little baby Krampus.

And I know we put him behind, put him on my geo shrine here.

Right. I know. Look at that. Oh, what a good boy. Oh, boy. So let's see.

I'm going to start with Michelle Knight. So 21 year old Michelle Knight was at a Family Dollar store in Cleveland, Ohio, on August 23, 2002, asking for directions from the store clerk. When a man offered to help her, she recognized the man as Ariel Castro, an elementary school bus driver and the father of one of her friends. OK, he said to her, I. Where it's at, I can take you straight to it, it'll only take me five minutes.

So Michelle agrees. OK.

Little did she know that this would be pretty much the last time she saw the outside world for many, many years. Oh, OK.

I'm done. Wow. I thought I thought you were just going to say little did she know this was her. It was going to be a good day. And I was like, well, we've got this. Yeah, I was going to do that, but I thought I'd be a little more dramatic.

And I'm intrigued, definitely. OK, good.

So Michelle had a tough time growing up. She recalls growing up in Cleveland. I love the area. It was really beautiful, but I hated my home life. So she had a really hard childhood. She and her family lived in their car for a while. When they did move into a house, it was big, but didn't really have anything in it. There wasn't a couch. They didn't have a stove to cook food on. They actually cook their food on a space heater.

And Michelle remembered that it took four hours to cook one hot dog for the family. So they didn't really have any comforts, could barely sustain the family. So with the family situation, Michelle kind of became the maternal figure to her younger siblings. And Michelle at one point was interviewed in 2000. So before all of this before this story took place back in 2000, she had been interviewed and she told the story of helping deliver her brother when he was born.

Oh, so she was like a grown up real fast. Yeah. So she had experienced severe emotional and physical abuse. A male relative sexually abused her when she was about 12 years old. So at 14, she ran away feeling safer on the streets than she did at home. She actually slept inside a she slept under park benches for a while. Then she ended up sleeping inside a trashcan. She was only four foot two and was able to get a blanket in the trash can and that's where she slept.

And by the way, Cleveland is fucking cold. It's one of the coldest towns because it's right on the lake. So it's a very cold place. So she slept in a trash can for for a while. She also found solace in a Baptist church, which she was drawn to because of the music, and she went regularly. But unfortunately, at one point, one of the churchgoers recognized her and called her father. So Michelle's dad picked her up and she was forced to return to high school, where she was like an outcast and she was bullied pretty drastically.

She she had kind of a terrible time. And so she connected with a guy, an older boy at school, and they began a sexual relationship. And that was kind of her like, safe haven. But soon she discovered she was pregnant and she said she wanted to be the best mom, she wanted to be a better mother than her mother was. And so eventually she gave birth to her son, Joey. Oh, and it was, as you can probably imagine, really difficult.

She had to go out and find jobs to be able to afford, you know, taking care of Joey. She often had to leave her son with her mother and her mother's boyfriend because she had to work. But unfortunately, her mother's boyfriend was very abusive. And at one point he was drunk and grabbed Joey by the leg and fractured his knee when he was a baby. So she had to take him to the hospital, meaning social services got involved and they took Joey and put him into foster care.

So despite Michelle trying to be the best mom, you know, she just couldn't make ends meet because her own parents were abusive to their grandchild every fucking time.

I think it's going to get better.

You just say, why would you think that at this point in our especially when the end of the story as she wouldn't be seeing the sun for second? Exactly why did I back background? This isn't even like the story. This is just like her background, which is just terrifying.

But her actual life sounds like a whole crime, exactly like its own fucking story.

OK, so on her way to a case management meeting, she stopped at the family at a local family dollar store because she was lost in thought she needed to ask for some directions. So while she was asking for directions, a man named Ariel Castro, her friend's father, came up and said, hey, it'll take me five minutes to show you where you need to go. But instead of driving to the family court where she was due to see Joey, he took her to his home.

And his explanation was that he had to pick up his daughter, her friend. And while he was at it, he wanted to show her some puppies.

So classic, his textbook textbook, his daughter, not surprisingly, did not live with him. And even more shockingly, there were no puppies. So once they were inside the house, he said to Michelle, you're not going to leave for a long time tonight, OK?

You know, if you really just went from I'm keeping this low key to welcome to hell, I don't know how to warm up. No. Just straight there, horrifying. Wow, so he said you're not going to leave for a long time, and then he started undressing himself and as Michelle remembered, she dropped to the floor begging him to let her go. She took out a photo of Joey and said, I need to get my son. This can't happen.

I need to get to my son. And he ripped the picture of Joey up in front of her and said, you will never see him again.

Well, I mean, it's just like I'm like on page one of the story and it's just like zero to one already.

I mean, I don't know if it's the ADHD meds, but just calm. Yeah, me too.

I mean, it's I'm not on meds, so it's not just like the the self control group.

Yeah.

I can't be a good control group because I'm also on Lexapro and all of pain and propranolol. Don't worry, I have too many drugs in my system for the wellness.

And that's the slogan of our podcast.

Yes. Yikes.

So he ripped up the photo of Joey, said you're never going to see him again. He then put her in a really gross, decrepit room of his house. He bound her with an extension cord wrapped around her legs, arms and neck, shoved a sock in her mouth to muffle her scream and basically left her there for several days.

So this is where things get even darker and more triggering and traumatic. So just a heads up. He would rape her multiple times a day and he would put on loud music so nobody could hear her screaming, she said. Later on, she said it was difficult. I had to go blank any time he was doing anything to me, I had to put myself in a different place.

Well, sure. I mean, literally disassociate yourself out of that situation. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

And another way that she distance herself from him was that she refused to call him by name and instead referred to him as dude to like keep her distance from her abuser and kidnapper.

There's so few things you can do in that situation. Do whatever you have to know.

And I think that's really fascinating that that that even occurred to her. Like, I'm not even going to use this name to, like, distance, which is really fascinating. I don't want to dignify this. Yes. Yeah, exactly.

So eventually, Michelle's family reported her missing following her sudden disappearance. But remember that she had run away as a teenager earlier. So they were like, oh, she's probably just running away. She was probably upset. She lost custody of Joey and so no one went looking for her. So she just was reported missing. And then that went out the window and they just kind of assumed she had run away from her family, from her son and from her life.

So it was just makes it extra sad when you read about it and watch the stories because, like, nobody was looking for her. You know, it's just really fucking sad.

I mean, it's like, what's the story of the girl who cried wolf or something? Or like by the end, like, she genuinely needed help and people, like, weren't there. And I mean, that's just so terrifying. I mean, isn't that the boy who cried wolf?

But yeah, I like that it's a girl, but it's the modern version and maybe I might be butchering that entirely.

It's like an old like. Yeah, it's like an old story. The boy who cried wolf and he kept he had a flock of sheep and he would scream wolf and people would come running and there would be no wolf. And then one day there was a wolf and he screamed wolf. And nobody came because he had tried it seven times.

And then the wolf and all the sheep similar in terms of like, you know, she kept running away, running away. And then now nobody was looking for her when she. Yes. So sad.

That's so it is really sad. I mean, she did only run away once, but yeah, it but still it is. No, no, but it's true. Like they just kind of were like, well this is her track record.

So this must be what happened. And you just wonder how often that happens, which is just really sad.

So fast forward a year. Oh, I know, I know. It's bad. That's going to happen a few times unfortunately.

Oh, me losing my fucking breath. Great.

Well, fast forwarding and the you losing your mind. Yeah. Both side by side. I mean you haven't even gone to the other two fucking people.

Yeah I know. I'm on page two. It's really bad. Oh my God.

So fast forward a year on April 21st, 2003, a day before her 17th birthday, sixteen year old Amanda Berry got up and got ready for her job at a local Burger King in Cleveland. She later on remembers the quote I almost called off of work that day because the next day was my birthday. You know what if what if I would have called off that day? But instead, she went into work and while walking home, a vehicle started to follow Amanda down the street and the man inside asked her if she needed a ride home.

And again, she recognized Ariel Castro as one of her friends and classmates. Dad. So, like, you just think, oh, I know this guy. I've met him.

I mean, look, if my friend's dad, right, was like I mean, yeah, if they're like they're if they're showed up on the bridge on his bike and said, hop on, that man will murder me.

I have to be fair. He can't really lure union with candy because it's literally dried fruit and. No. He wants to be like any I'd be like, let me see the candy first, I'd be like. Show me know your tricks don't even like it's a stale granola bar in my car.

I know the best steakhouse in the world. I would be in that car. Right. Hard to lure me in. No. And it's it's one of those things where you're like, oh, it's like your guard is down. Of course. Let's just say like a prime example is when we were in Portland, do we remember the story of Portland? Oh, no. Musk, what did I do?

Do you remember how I ended up musk? Nobody else here. I've never covered. I know I haven't. Musk is a person, by the way.

I like to say I haven't covered. Musk is first of all, it was a true crime in terms of if lying is a crime that was of real, because the way that I met Musk is because someone at our live show and you know who you are, I don't know who you are anymore, but I know you are.

You know I don't. But you do because at the meet and greet, someone was like, Portland has the best steak. You got to go to this place. It has it's open until 2:00 a.m. It's got the best steak in the world. And I was like, OK, well, it's midnight and I am hungry and it's fake. Like, I'll go. And I went to do it. I went all over the steakhouse at 2:00 in the morning and it ended up being literally like a sex house.

Oh, yes. I remember my and I stayed because I was not going to judge. I was like, we are sex positive here and I just want my fucking steak. And I sat down and let's just say I was surrounded by a lot of hmmm. Let's just say that apparently once midnight hits, then it becomes like after hours that they're off. You know, it's not just like a late night, it's just a strip club. Like once midnight hits, it becomes like an experimental sex house.

And I saw a lot of things and a lot of people do it, a lot of things to each other. And I sat there quietly waiting for my fucking steak. And this very naked woman kept I mean, it's like I know like part of their job. It's like kind of like get all touchy feely on you. But I am so scared of that. And so, like, I'm just so vanilla. And you kept trying to be like touchy feely and like because I was like, I just I just want my steak.

So describe yourself is like the most vanilla person when it comes to that. Really. I was like, I would like this is not my comfort zone, OK? It was like to a vanilla person, it was just like really shocking, really shocking. And I like went back to the hotel that night and, like, knocked on your door and Eva's door like three a.m.. I gotta to tell you what I just saw one of them I remember this is this is when I felt the stupidest of my entire life, which I know you know the story because I couldn't shut up about it.

One of the things that this touchy feely waitress was doing because like, she's supposed to be like, oh, like hot and get me bothered or something. She was taking my order. She took her naked butt and like, lifted her butt cheek and then, like, screwed it up to the table and, like, let her hand go so her ass with, like, slam on to the table. And I said, You almost knocked over by Shirley Temple.

But it was like, I just want my steak and then this person, it made me wait around for the steak and then I found out later, like the kitchen closed an hour early and steak. And while I was sitting there waiting for this fucking steak that never came, Musk came on to the stage. And I'm not going to. It's too it's too it's very too for our explicit podcast, it's to X rated.

Yeah. Let's just say there were like remote control cars with dildos involved. And I got to read about the remote control cars if you had weights inside her and then she literally punched a man in the face. It was and I was just like, God, this better be this best staker of my entire life. And I walked out having done nothing except lost money. Yeah.

And lost part of your vanilla innocence, I think. And you're Shirley Temple. They probably were pissed. They were like, this dude's not even drinking.

And like I was I was how could I?

I was in a state of shock that you survived that ordeal because you are very optimistic. Speaking of traumatizing things like this story, I'm so sorry for having interrupted it. I just.

No, no, no. But I like how I mentioned how easy it would be for someone to tell me anything. And literally one of our fans suggested this place. And I was like, to be fair, like that was somebody we didn't know and you still apparently don't know.

It was a stranger who, by the way, could have, like, told me to go to a random location and then waited for me to see if I could appear. And then they could have killed me like it was me must could have fucking punched me in the face. That probably almost did punch you directly in the foot within punching range, but unmuzzled.

Oh, boy. Well so. Exactly. So if you trust somebody who you've never met to tell you where the best steak in town is and you should show up, then like you, you're going to trust your friend's dad who just wants to give you a ride and who you've met.

It was a life lesson that I had to go through so I could tell everyone listening to us, don't do it.

Just don't don't trust anybody, especially you got to, like, take the note from Bush-Cheney and just fucking Yelp a place, please, next time.

And before you show up where the stranger tells you to go, certainly should have a quick Google and check.

It really would have saved me a lot of therapy money.

Scroll through some of the photos on Yelp and see what kind of remote control cars are up in anyone's business. And they were OK. OK, we're going to do an after hours special just on that.

Maybe we'll do a Patriot bonus to talk about my, my, the darkest night of my life, my therapist. And we can just get in a three three way call here. Better help dotcom. Right, exactly. I'm sure therapists on Better Health knows all about Musk. They're just like, oh, not again. And this isn't a shame. We're usually very sex positive people. I'm not shaming anyone. You're into what you're into. I don't care.

I literally just wanted a stake and is not into the whole sex club thing. I just I just it's not my thing. And I was stuck there because I decided I was too hungry to leave. So please go back to your true crime. I'm so sorry for monopolizing.

No, you're not. I think we all needed a little bit of a break there because it's it's getting heavy. And that's a perfect example.

Don't don't listen to strangers. Don't listen to anyone. Don't listen to people. Your friend's dad don't listen to bear. And if your friend's dad says, hey, I'll drive you home from your shift at Burger King, be careful. And to like this guy also was a school bus driver, by the way. And so people knew him. He was an elementary school bus driver. He was like a figure that people recognized. His daughter had a lot of friends who knew him.

So this wasn't like, oh, some stranger danger situation. Right. She knew him. So he was like, OK, I'll drive you home. And she's like, yeah, that'd be great. So he said his daughter, her friend was at his house. And what Amanda like to go see her. So she's like, sure, yeah, I'll go see her. So Castro drove her home to his white two story house on Seymour Avenue.

And in the car, he was apparently talkative. He was talking about his kids and how one of his kids apparently worked at the Burger King Amanda worked at. And so they were just chatting away. Nothing seemed off. They were about to go see her friend. And when they arrived, Castro said his daughter might be taking a bath. So we'll just wait. And he said, hey, let me show you a to give you a tour of the house.

So Castro took Amanda upstairs and showed her something which at the time she kind of dismissed as like, OK, I guess I'm just going to dismiss this. There was a hole in the door where a doorknob used to be. And he had our look through the through the hole and she saw a woman sleeping in a bedroom in front of a television set. And we later learned Amanda later learned that that was Michelle, who had been there for a whole year and was sleeping in the bedroom on a mattress.

So Amanda remembers, quote, He took me to the next bedroom and it was just really dark in there. And he didn't turn on the lights. And there was a little like a little room. Off the bigger bedroom, kind of a big closet, he then took me to the basement and he taped my wrists and he taped my ankles and he put a belt around my ankles over the tape. He put a helmet over my head and he said, just be quiet and don't make any noise and I'll take you home.

So he changed, chained her to a pole with all of those things wrapped around her. He chained her to a pole, shut off the lights and left her in the dark with the TV on. She started screaming and crying. She said nobody came. I was so scared I was going to die, I didn't think I would ever make it home. And I watched a 20/20 special on this. And she described how the helmet kept fogging up because she was crying.

And I took a motorcycle helmet and she was like I was just like sobbing and I couldn't see. And it was I mean, it's just really traumatic. Oh, my God. So at this point, her family realizes she's missing. There's no reason for her to be gone. So her abduction makes headlines. And Amanda's watching her mother and sister on the TV in the basement. So the TV's on. She can literally see her mother and sister talking about her on the news.

And she said that kept me going. And I said, you know what? I'm going to make it home to you. As long as you fight, I'm going to fight.

Oh. Oh, that's so heartbreaking. Yeah. Also, it's like it's so this is like not to be a slight at all. It's like bus drivers, but like it's such a random person who would be involved in your life. One would be looking at that person.

But some general connection that you wouldn't. Exactly. It's not like, oh, the best friend or the roommate or more like the boyfriend or somebody like really intimate with a real history with you. It's just like literally the random guy in town. People happen to know that. Why would you pick that person out of a lineup? Exactly.

And it's so weird because it's such a it's such a brief connection. You wouldn't. Yeah. You'd never connect those two people. It's like, oh, he looked familiar, but I don't know him very well or no.

Like I don't have a relationship with any of my neighbors. Like, no one would think it'd be my random fucking neighbor. But that person knows where I live. I mean, it would make sense if they wanted to hurt me, like they could hide me pretty fucking easily. No one would ever look at them like a God don't get any ideas.

People are talk about ways that they're going to get abducted and killed. It's just with our show. I feel like every time I hear a story of yours, I just realize how easy it could be. It's a dangerous fucking place. And somebody. Yeah, the world is terrifying. So on the fourth day of her abduction, which was April 24th, 2003, Amanda said Castro moved her to an upstairs bedroom and chained her to a radiator.

She was missing for a week when her family received a call from her cell phone. Oh, so, of course, they're excited and they answer the phone and it's Ariel Castro. And he doesn't say who he is, but he calls on her cell phone and he says, I have Mandy. And according to Amanda's sister, nobody called her Mandy except people who knew her. So he knew her well enough to know, like his daughter called her Mandy because they were friends.

So he knew her nickname. But still, there was no connection because he was such a removed person out of her life. Yeah. And he said she wants to be with me.

And that was all he said. So it was 2003 and the FBI had just started developing technology to track cell phones. And so they were able to narrow down that her phone had been used in like a certain block radius, like a 30 block radius. And it's so upsetting because they got so close like they were in that area. An FBI agent named Tim Colonics said, we spent about a week around the clock in that area hoping the phone would be used again, but he never used her phone again.

So if he had used the phone again, they probably would have been able to pinpoint where she was being held. But it was like so close yet so far. And they were driving around the house and there was no way to know where she was, but she was in that radius, which is just so dark.

Meanwhile, Amanda was stuck in this, like, really filthy room and his house was about the size of a closet.

She described the mattress was old and nasty. It was just disgusting. She was tied up by a five foot chain and she said she had enough room to get up and use the bathroom, but she had to use a garbage can to, like, go to the bathroom. And she's in the room, which was obviously filthy. And it was really difficult to sleep because she had this five foot chain. So anytime she had to turn over, she would have to, like, lift the chain off of her to move.

So she was never having like I mean, why would you have a good night's sleep in that situation anyway? But like, yeah, it was a restless sleep. Yes.

And it's just part of like the the torture of this is like she just can't even be comfortable in a room. Yeah.

So other than that, he Castro gave her food, he gave her like a bag of chips or crackers or fast food every now and then. And the other kind of sick twisted thing is that he never allowed Amanda and Michelle to contact each other to talk to, like, commiserate with each other.

So there was not even did Michelle know that Amanda are OK? Yeah.

So they knew of each other's presence, but they. We weren't allowed to speak or connect in any way, which made it even worse, obviously.

So a year later, again, a whole nother year later, on April 2nd, 2004, Castra decided he wanted a third prisoner for his house. So he found Georgina DeJesus, who was 14 years old. So the youngest so far, I'm like about five blocks away from the street where he kidnapped Amanda and Gina was friends with Castro's daughter, Arlene. So, again, another friend, I was going to say, I have a question.

So. So all three of them, if they were all friends with his daughter, in theory, all three of them knew each other. Right.

I'm not sure if they knew each other beforehand. Maybe they knew of each other. Yeah, I'm not sure, because at this point, too, Michelle wasn't listed as missing because people just assumed she ran away. So they definitely weren't going to connect those two, right? Yeah. So they they presumably were one degree separated.

Yeah. I'm trying to think of like in terms of like, oh, if his daughter had a birthday party, he would invite all three of them and they might have. Yeah. Past each other. So that's a good point. It literally doesn't matter. I was trying to think if they knew each other well, interestingly, they're also a couple of years apart. So I wonder too, like they didn't specify if maybe he had multiple daughters. I'm not sure to be honest with you, because they were like three years apart in age.

So they didn't even, you know, they weren't even in the same class or anything. So a little bit odd.

I don't know if it was the same daughter. Maybe it was different daughters. But, yeah, they presumably had crossed paths at some point, which is also to imagine.

Imagine being my fuckin daughter.

Oh, God. I know. I thought about that, too. Like your dad's using you as the reason to, like, kidnap your friend. I mean, it's horrific. It's like unthinkable.

So on the day she was kidnapped, Gina and Arlene, the friend, the daughter, were actually heading home from school. And then they went their separate ways. And only moments later, a maroon vehicle pulled up on the curb and she recognized Arlene's father at the wheel. And he said, hey, have you seen Arlene? I'm looking for her. And she was like, Oh, yeah, I just saw her. And he's like, oh, can you show me where she went?

Like, hop in and show me where she went. I'll drive you home. So she's like, Sure, yeah. So she gets in the car. And she said, I was kind of freaking out a little bit when he didn't turn around. But then when he started talking to me about how his daughter, about his daughter and how he was going to take his daughter to the mall and stuff, I kind of relaxed.

So unfortunately, instead of going to find his daughter, Castro drove Gina to his house where he asked her to help him move a stereo. And once inside, Gina was like, things are off things. He's being really weird. And his behavior was bizarre. She said, quote, He was like fixing his eyebrows and trimming his mustache and cutting his nose hairs. And then she said he starts to, like, touch me and stuff. And then I'm like, what are you doing?

You could go to jail. And then he switches up saying, well, OK, you're going to go home now, but you can't go through the same door you came in. So that's like her summation of it. But basically he's like starting to get filthy with her and she's like, don't do that.

And he's like, OK, you're right, I'm going to send you home, but you have to go through a different door and it happens kind of guarantee a door into a locked fucking room or something. It's in the basement of.

Yeah, so.

Yeah, exactly. So he led you into the basement where she said he grabbed her and chained her up. She said he didn't make it tight enough so I threw it over and tried to run, but he sat on my back and pinned her there.

So her family filed a missing persons report and like they're similar in age. But again, she's fourteen, so she's even younger than these other two. And fourteen is really little. Yeah. I mean, so a sixteen, obviously, but four teens even younger. So her family reports her missing almost immediately. But similar to the last two kidnappings, they just couldn't figure out who would have done this and why. And it's just such a perfect crime of like, I'm safe enough for you to get in the car with.

But like you said, not like an uncle or cousin or someone you would know well enough to be to be suspicious of. Right. So all three of them are now like captive in his house. And initially he worked really hard to keep them separated and he didn't permit them to talk to each other, which kind of kept, you know, which is another control method, I guess, to keep them under control or so they can't conspire to get out or something.

Yeah, exactly. They couldn't commiserate. They couldn't learn anything from each other. So Gina said he was always there watching every move. It was like he knew everything, every move that we did. And they were occasionally allowed out of their rooms to do chores around the house like they were expected to clean the house every now and then. But they had to obey stringent rules. And he was watching them the whole time. They weren't allowed to speak, that sort of thing.

He also did an even next level fucked up thing, which is that he started to like so distrust in them of each other. So like he played them off of each other on it, and he would do that as he would treat them differently. So, for example, it seemed like Gino was his favorite for a while. I mean, she was like the newest member of the House and also the youngest. And so he would, for example, get her food from really.

Nice restaurants, and then he would only give the other two like crackers, and he made sure they knew this and she would get and Amanda described it later as like it's simple things like clothes or food. But at that point, you're so desperate and you're thinking like all you have are your bare necessities. Yeah, exactly. And so if you're seeing, like, this other girl gets a new sweater, you're like, well, what the fuck?

I'm in fuckin chained up room. Why don't I get that? And so that created, like, distrust and jealousy and just made it even worse.

So, Amanda, I mean, the way she filled time basically was by writing. So she was she asked for a journal and he actually brought her a journal and a pen to, like, keep herself busy. So she wrote in notebooks, on napkins, in her diary and even on fast food back. So Robyn from twenty twenty when she would like had her show, how it worked. So she got a McDonald's bag and she said you would tear the sides where the glue is and like spread it out.

And it became like this huge blank piece of paper. And she said that would last for about a week of writing. So she used anything she could find. It's like a surface to write on.

And interestingly, she actually created like a code. It's like a secret code to kind of say, well, it's so fascinating. And like she reads some of these entries later on, which is like so wild, but she created like a secret code on every day she was raped. She would write like the number of times. And so she was keeping track because she said later, if they found her body or if they found him, she would want them to like figure out that this is how many times he had violated her.

Right. So they basically she had a black and white TV and that was all she had to kind of connect her to the outside. And this is also surreal because she was watching TV channels talking about her. So trippy. I mean, like next level creepy. So she was watching. She would watch The Montel Williams Show a lot and the psychic he often had with Sylvia Browne. And so she would watch this all the time. And she she said she desperately hoped her mother would go on the program so that Sylvia Browne could tell her that she was all right and like, give her some sort of comfort.

And then one day, her mother in 2004 literally got on the show. And so Amanda sitting there and they're like, now we have the mother of missing 16 year old or 17 year old Amanda Berry and say, oh, my God, Sylvia Browne must be so fucking nervous at this point. It's like I've got someone who can confirm or deny everything I'm about to predict.

Well, so she literally said, I'm sorry, she's not alive. And so she told I mean, there's a lot of issues with Sylvia Browne in general. But so she told she watched as Sylvia Browne told her mother that she had died and she was like, confident. And I watched the clip and she's like, I hate to tell you this, but there's no other way to tell you. Like, she's dead. She's gone.

Also, like, can you imagine the like watching your it's something that luckily none of us will ever have to experience or but I guess in this exact one case, there's always that chance. I like watching someone see your reaction to finding out that you're dead, that you're dead.

I mean, really, you're right. It's like so surreal.

Actually, your mom I feel like, you know, like, I, I can't imagine a more heartbreaking thing to watch. And also it not true.

And you're out of control like you have no way of being like, no, it's me. Like I'm here, like, keep your hopes up. And so, yeah, Sylvia Browne basically said, like, now she's dead. Sorry, in her mom, like, broke down like I mean, her mom had totally broke down and it was like she said the worst fucking thing to watch.

So she said, I just broke down crying because I couldn't believe Sylvia Browne said that. And then my mom broke down crying. So that hurt even worse than even worse than that. Three years into her disappearance, Amanda watched as her mother's death was announced on the news so her mother would never get to know that she'd been alive the whole time.

Oh, my God. That's the most heart wrenching part of you. Yeah.

Oh, yeah.

She said that had almost completely broken her. Like, that was I would have I be destroyed. Yeah.

And she said so her mother's name was Luana Miller and she had died of heart failure. This was just like totally heartbreaking.

So Michelle, the first woman who a Mercado sort of adopted, Jesus Christ abducted, very different, also was kind of using as her family as a motivation to keep going and survive.

So Michelle remembers, if it wasn't for my son Joey being out there and hoping to come back to him, I don't know what I would have done. So, you know, now Amanda's mother has died and so she has to just hope she can get out to see her sister. Yeah.

And so in 2006, shortly after her mother died, Amanda suddenly had a new motivation to survive because on her 20th birthday, she realized she was pregnant. And she actually said which gave me goose calm, she said in the twenty twenty special that she felt like her mother had died and had given her this baby because she knew like her when her mother had died, she realized like she needed a reason to survive and a baby to her, which was like the most.

Oh, God made me cry. Wow. So she suddenly realized she was pregnant. She said she was terrified. She said how? I mean, I barely eat and I'm chained to a wall and I have a bucket for a bathroom. So this must just be like terrifying, like a next level fear of like now you have a baby to take care of.

Yeah.

So all the women at this point have encountered pretty horrific sexual abuse from Castro. Michelle had become pregnant five times, but miscarried each time because she had been starved and beaten by Ariel Castro. So, I mean, you know, I'm not shocked. I mean, with the way that she was her body was being handled and he was clearly abusing the shit out of her. So on Christmas Day 2006, Amanda gave birth to her daughter, Jocelyn Castro had brought home an inflatable kiddie pool for her to give birth.

And because he didn't want to mess on his hands, that's a quote from the show.

And Michelle helped deliver the baby because, remember, she had helped deliver her own brother years before when she was really young. So she delivered the baby. And apparently Ariel Castro sat in the chair and read a book about childbirth in the corner, trying to, like, catch, orchestrate.

Yeah. Because he wasn't going to take her to a hospital. Obviously, it's a lot like. Do you ever see Room with Brianna? Three mystery. That's what I was thinking of. Like this whole time. The story. Yeah.

Wow.

So Amanda, like, originally struggled with the concept of having a child with her, like, abusive captor. Sure. Said, quote, This is his kid. You know, how do I feel about that? And she resembled him a lot. But then I would look at her and I just felt like she's mine, she's mine. So she was able to kind of separate, even though he did look she did look a lot like her father.

She was able to, like, separate and say like, no, this is my child and she's not taking that away from me. So Gina said later that having little Jocelyn there was like a really nice distraction and like a welcome change of pace in the house. Some some brightness added some brightness to the house. Gina said it was fun because I was able to get away from the situation. When I was playing with Jocelyn, Jocelyn made me forget everything.

So Jocelyn was just like little angel that appeared and like brightened everybody's lives and brought a lot of happiness with her. But as she started to grow up, Amanda was like, how do I explain all this to her?

Like I'm bringing this child in this room. And it was really sweet. She had set up like a little elementary school and they would play like imagination games where she would say, OK, I'm going to walk you to school now. And then she would say, like, OK, bye, see you after school. And like, put her, you know, down at, like a little chair and say, like, now we're out. It is like room.

Yeah, it is. And she would and there were pictures of it and she had like, you know, handmade little like alphabet posters for the wall.

And she was just like raising her in this tiny room, like room, like room.

So she was like, how do I describe being chained up? Like, what am I supposed to say to her? And he told the girls that it's hard to say women or girls because one of them was a child to this point, older. So women are or females.

Right. Right, right. Exactly. So he told the women to describe their chain, those bracelets, to try and normalize, like why they were chained to a radiator.

When Jason was about two or three, Joslyn asked her dad, Castro, to please take the chains off of her mom. So he did because he sort of was like a softy around his little daughter. Right. And as Jocelyn grew older, he started allowing her more and more freedoms. So even though the women girls were locked inside, every time Castro would leave the house, he would let Jocelyn play in the backyard. She would go to the park with him or to Sunday services with her dad.

So he was kind of like becoming a different person with her as far as like he was letting his guard down in a way. And he was softening to her, not to them, obviously, like they're still chained up to a radiator, but to the little girl, he's taking her out with him and stuff.

I imagine being Jocelyn now and in therapy, things like when I think of growing up like, oh, yeah, and then I would run on home to my mother, chained to the wall and tell her about how much fun I had. And I wish she could come.

Well, it's really heartbreaking. Yeah, it is. And Amanda too, at this point is nervous because she's like, oh, she loved him, her dad, and he loved her. But she's also nervous, like, is he he has problems. Is he touching her? Is he doing anything? And she has no control over this.

It's also the thickest part, like at least like with like in a room, because it's the only it's really similar at least, which like this isn't great. Like the the guy that was holding mystery in the room and like they had a son together, like he was really fucking detached from that kid. And it's almost better because, like, that kid had a better chance of, like, not being connected. OK, yeah.

Not being connected in case they ever escaped. Like, I mean, the the worst. Some of the worst. Stories that I ever hear are when there's like cases of assaults that leads to someone being pregnant and then there's like custody and it's like get out of here with that.

So, like, that's just an extra level of mental torture of like, oh, I have this guy that you wanted to because is it better that she was able to leave the house and, like, have somewhat of normal experiences rather than being chained up all the time? Or and he didn't abuse her as far as we know or as far as they've said. So also, at least like he wasn't treating her the way he was treating the other three.

So, yeah, I mean, it's definitely like all that, as we like to know.

Right. And it's just all terrible. But yeah, it's something to think about. And it is. And I try to. Yeah. And I mean spoiler alert, but this is kind of what helps save them in the end is that he kind of softens to the daughter and like kind of loosens his grip on like being controlling and having that kind of control over the the other three. So at this point, it's like how is nobody suspecting him if he's running around with suddenly a small child?

Where is this child coming from? Like, what's going on? And it's just the wildest thing because nobody fucking suspected it. And there is a book called Hope A Memoir of Survival in Cleveland. And the author, Mary Jordan describes it as Castro was very clever. You can't underestimate how smooth he was. If you walk down the street, you didn't see that he had put a door and nailed it to those windows and had quilts up because he had pulled the curtains.

He always tidied up his front lawn. His house was a mess because he was a big hoarder, but he was very clever. He said hello to neighbors. He was sweet. He drove the school bus. He was good to his friends. He just had a double life. And when he walked inside his front door, he became a whole other violent person.

And what would happen in terms of Jocelin going to school?

Because, like, he he there's no way he risks like the girl going to school and talking about her mom, you know, so she went she just did the schooling, like in the room with her mom, like her mom did, like that little school at home.

And I thought that was just like pretend OK. I mean, it was pretend like she was like, oh, now I'm going to drop you off at school. But it was like their bedroom.

No, I'm saying I thought the whole scenario was imaginary, that education was taking place also.

What like did she go to school? No. Like did she like have an education or. No. OK, yeah.

So he didn't he like took her out every now and then to go to the park but like rarely. And also sometimes she was allowed to play outside but that was it. So inside she was quote unquote learning from her mom who pretended to be the teacher. It was like just kind of she was trying to.

I know she also got like an added perk as a mother of like, oh, and you can have some like like school books. So you can be the teacher too or something.

I don't know. I mean, I think maybe he bought her like coloring supplies and stuff, but nothing like real education wise, you know, nothing like structured. So then we fast forward to May six, 2013, and now it has been eleven years that Michelle, the first abductee, has been in this fucking house. Wow. So May six, 2013, there is an opportunity finally for the women to make their escape in an unexpected way, which is Jocelin.

So this is how Amanda tells the story. So Jocelin goes downstairs and then she runs back up and she says, I don't find Daddy. Daddy's nowhere around. She's like, Mom, Daddy's car is gone. My heart immediately started pounding because I'm like, should I chance it if I'm going to do it, I need to do it now. And this shockingly, she tried her door of her bedroom and it was unlocked. And she said this was the first time in ten years that Castro had left and she had tried the door and it wasn't locked.

He always locked her door when he left the house, but he was kind of letting his guard down now because he has this little girl running around and he lets her, like, go in and out of the room. So he left the door unlocked. So she was shocked that her bedroom door was unlocked. And downstairs, the front door was open, but wired with an alarm. And beyond it, there was a storm door that he had padlocked shut.

So she was able to squeeze out one arm of this out of the storm door. And she's waving her arm around and she's screaming, Somebody, please help me. I'm Amanda Berry. Please help me. And this is not the guy you want to be anybody. So a neighbor saw her but was too afraid to intervene and basically was like, I don't feel comfortable in this scenario and fucking kept walking.

Oh, God.

Like, say something like this is like the ultimate example of like what an asshole do you feel like now that you almost let her go back to the life she truly so she said after I got to that locked door and the guy was like didn't help her and walked away, I was like, he's going to come home and this is going to be the end. But that is when another neighbor, Charles Ramsey, showed up, Amanda explained he kind of like started trying to pull on the door, but he couldn't get it open either.

So he kind of like kicks it and he's like, there you go. Finished kicking it and you can get out. So she was. Able he was able to kick it from the outside, she was then able to kick it from the inside and the door open and she was able to run out into the front yard of the house. So she had him call nine one one. She spoke to the operator. She was terrified because she was convinced that still he would come home and somehow get her back inside and kill her.

Probably, she said, I don't know why he left that day with the door unlocked. I will never know. And she said first it was so unreal. So she can hear the 911 call. She says, This is Amanda Berry. I've been missing for ten years. Please come help me. And it's like as the dispatcher, she must be like, what can you imagine?

Yeah.

So said when the cops got there, I told them there's two other girls in the house. So within minutes, police started flooding the street. They stormed the house where Gina and Michelle were hiding in their room. They didn't know what was going on. They just heard a lot of ruckus and thought like Castro was hurting Amanda. They just weren't sure what was going on. But as soon as they heard the word police, Michelle swung the door open, ran out and like, hung, hung on to the officers and wouldn't let go.

Probably literally the first person she's seen in a decade. Yeah, the first person. And like somebody who is not going to hurt her. Yeah. Also, imagine being a detective that was on the case like ten years ago who was just patrolling and patrolling, battling but not going into any of the houses, being like I looked at that house hundreds of times and when that cell phone, like they were driving around the area for an entire solid week, 24/7, we're driving around ten years later, like you have no idea where that detective as they might they might have a totally different job now.

And they're just like that fucking house this entire time.

And it makes me wonder, like, what other fucking houses are you walking past? And you have no clue what goes on beneath. Oh, you know, underneath in the basement or behind closed doors.

It's it's it's the worst. So when Gina told police I'm Gina DeJesus, she said it was the first time she had heard her own name in five years and Castro had made them all use different names. And I don't have the names that they used. I don't think they like to talk about that for obvious reasons. But you've given them like other names to use to like and he called them his wives, like he had a whole twisted idea for what what were him.

And actually, they they had been boarded up in his house for so long that after ten years they got out and the flashing lights of the police were so bright they could barely keep their eyes open. That's how dark it was inside their captivity. So obviously next their families arrived.

I mean, seeing those photos is just one of the most powerful, powerful things.

Yeah, it's it's pretty wild, like seeing Amanda's sister in the hospital with her. It's just crazy. So Gina's father, Felix, described it as a dream. He thank the Lord for bringing his baby back. Amanda sister Beth welcomed with open arms, and her first thought was, oh, my God, she's so skinny, but she's still beautiful. I mean, it's been like ten years. The thought of that is just bonkers. She said she had the biggest smile.

I could just feel her love. And as for Michelle, she was brought to the hospital. She had been I think she was probably treated physically the worst out of all of them. She had been so severely beaten, she had lost her vision and she had nerve damage. And again, she had miscarried five babies like he was really, really horribly abusive to her. And her mother told the press that she hoped to reunite with her daughter and introduce Michelle to a younger sister that had been born during the time she was captive.

But Michelle chose to not meet up with her family and kept her distance, which her story is just tinged with a lot of sadness because, you know, no one was looking for her. And then she got out and she wasn't even remember at all. I don't I don't either. And she couldn't even face her family. I mean, her family's her mom's boyfriend is the reason that her son had gotten taken away in the first place. So it's awful.

So Castro, who is 53 at this point, was sentenced to life plus 1000 years in prison on August 1st, 2013, after he pled guilty to nine hundred and thirty seven counts of kidnapping, rape and aggravated murder. At his sentencing, Michelle stated, I've got my life back. I spent 11 years in hell. Now your hell is just beginning. But unfortunately, he was found dead in his prison cell after dying by suicide on September 3rd, 2013.

So he was there for like a couple of weeks and he took his own life. And they were just like it was horrible because they were like, you know, we suffered for so long and he just fucking four fucking missed out.

Yeah, it's almost it's crimes like that where you wish you could prolong life just so you can make them suffer longer. Yeah, that's what that's what. Gino. Yeah. I want you to suffer a thousand years.

I want you to know what it was like or feel it is like. Yeah. And Gino was saying the same thing of like I was hoping to watch him rot in prison for the rest of his life and he just took took took the away and they had no control again.

Yeah. Again. They just couldn't even keep him. I mean, yeah, it's really fucked up.

So in 2015, Gina and Amanda graduated from high school, which was obviously a big deal. Gina got to have her quinceañera, which she had hadn't had. She disappeared when she was fourteen, Gina and Amanda. Together wrote a memoir called Hope A Memoir of Survival in Cleveland, written alongside two Washington Post journalists. And that's kind of where they describe a lot of the details we've talked about. But obviously even more in the book, if you want to read that.

And Gina herself in twenty eighteen founded the Cleveland Family Center for Missing Children and Adults to help families, you know, deal with the media and figure out how to go to police and the best way to search for missing loved ones. And the foundation's headquarters is located on the same street on Seymour Avenue where she was held captive for 10 years. So in 2018, the Daily Mail reported that Michelle's son, so Joey, the boy that she was going to see that one day his new family had unfortunately made the decision to not share the identity of his birth mom with him.

And so apparently Michelle said she understood the decision and she has photographs of Joey that his adoptive parents send her and she's just happy to see he's like growing up and having a happy life. So as far as we know, she's now happily married to her husband, Miguel, and has changed her name to Lily Rose Lee. And she just hopes to one day be able to see her son down the line when, you know, things change or when he grows up, I guess.

Wow. And so since her escape, Michelle has become an advocate for victims of sexual abuse. She released two memoirs and she told NBC News that since escaping, she has found it hard using a lot of the things that we now take for granted. So, for example, cell phones or smartphones, she said, oh, my God, cell phones were such a pain in the butt for me, it was just beepers and flip phones when I was kidnapped.

And I just figure out she is like, tick tock, like Snapchat and stuff. I know. And so Amanda still lives with her daughter, Jocelyn, who's now 14 years old. And according to a taped interview, she described Jocelyn as so kind hearted. She loves animals. She's outgoing. She's a little sassy. I think she gets that from me. I'm just so proud of how much she's grown as a person. She's very caring. And a lot of kids her age are not like that.

So that is the story of the Ariel Castro kidnapping house in Cleveland 10 years.

And they they managed to get their way out, thank God.

Wow. That is heavy. That's a heavy one. Yeah.

I mean, I'm so thankful they made it out, but like, it's just goes to show you don't know what people are really like behind the scenes proof.

Oh, my gosh. I'm surprised I didn't know about it. I shouldn't be allowed to completely just past me, I suppose.

I didn't know if you remembered, like when they escaped, because I remember that being like a huge thing that they they got out of the house. So I don't know, maybe it was just because I was in Ohio.

What year was it? Twenty. Thirteen. I didn't I don't I don't know how I missed that.

This thing is for so many horrible stories like this that they kind of, you know, they shouldn't have to blend together.

Never knew it. I know. I know. Horrible. Wow.

Didn't watch the shows that you watched her. What were the. Oh so I watched a couple of things. So 20/20 ABC News. Did I write. I wrote it down here.

So ABC News did a special called Trapped. I watched a 20/20 special. I just I'm obsessed with twenty twenty, so I watch everything they do.

And then there are also those books which I did not read all the books, but there a lot of the information came from those books. So they're memoirs which are also great. Wow. So yeah, that my friends. Now time for some cookies with Bear.

Listen, you deserve cookies with burning.

Sounds like a terrible German spin off. A cautionary tale indeed.

Like cookies with Bernie or biscuits with Bernie or this Ferdy.

Oh my God. Or Bunny with the bear. No, because he calls his his girlfriend honey all the time.

And I'm like, does she call him honey bear? That's probably where it came from. So he's so sweet and precious. Youko OK, well I guess it's better than stinky, which to be fair, like nothing's better than Stinky Woods in terms of pet nicknames and ah in relationships. Alison has that the fucking horse.

OK, well anyway thank you so much for listening to and that's why we drink episode another episode of UPS and Downs. We should just called the show The Roller Coaster. At this point, the roller coaster. If you want to find us anywhere you can go to.

And that's why we drink dotcom and our socials are at the Schultz and Juffer and if you can find em at the steakhouse sex dungeon, you never will again, at least not when the sun is down. And also we I was like to say, you can also still submit listener stories on our website and all that for listeners episodes. And yeah, we love you guys and take care and don't get in any cars with anybody and see something, say something.

And if you know Musk, tell her I think. Slowly, just while the and everything, unless you're into it, don't give her a remote control car if you're hoping to see it, see that car again, because you might surprised if you know, Muscogee for Christmas, got your remote control car. I would be wary of where it came from, that's all. Yeah.

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