E211 The Echelon Twins and a Rotary Butt DialAnd That's Why We Drink
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- 21 Feb 2021
Welcome to episode 211, where this week we're spreading the bad news so it doesn't turn into worse news... Join us as Em dives even deeper into the world of conspiracy theories for the second part in their series on QAnon. They cover the antisemitism at the root of it, just how people are getting sucked in and the rumors about who could be behind the infamous Q poster. Then Christine takes us back to Psych 101 class with the case that prompted not only the Bystander Effect but the origins of 911 itself, the murder of Kitty Genovese. We also look into Kitty's badass life as a bartender, "bookmaker" and girlfriend. And lastly, is Em a gummy worm sinner? ...and that's why we drink!
Check out the blog posts Em mentions in their story here:
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All right, I'm very excited to hang on. Can I start at this time? Oh, sure. You and now Christine's introduction to and that's why we drink introduced by officials.
I wanted to be to the punch, but for the last month I've been going welcome to. And that's why we drink.
Because you go. You're right. You're right. I'm introducing your introduction. I appreciate it. Thank you for doing that for me. And let's try again. OK, well, here's Christine's introduction over and that's why we drink. Hello.
This is and that's why we already said that this is episode to 11. OK, I did write that part down and I have a I have a big regret.
What? We didn't change our names again.
Oh, it's going to call me Poopy Head again. Yeah. So a couple people noticed it only like three, which I was very disappointed.
And then I were texting and I said something like, Oh, I love you. I was like, let me too. And then I'm like, forty seconds later I was like, never mind. I take it back. And I said, Why?
And they sent this this screenshot from Instagram of someone being like my name on the YouTube video this week says Imholz a.k.a. Pupi is like, Oh, I forgot I did that.
But I was very proud of it because we didn't change our names. And I was like, people are so into that. And I was like, we were on a roll. And then we totally forgot. And you were being a big butthead that week about Lemon's birthday or something. So I changed it.
That sounds right. I, I remember also thinking right after we recorded that episode, oh, we forgot to change our name to something funny. And then I saw poopy head and I was OK, we've done it again so.
Well I've editing power again this week so we'll see what happens.
I look forward to I, I imagine whatever my name is lets the audience know how nice I was to you the week up until your editing or just like what mood I'm in because it doesn't really reflect on you so much as it reflects on me and my attitude problem.
So I wouldn't worry about like it reflecting on you. It's mostly me and my mom.
She's whatever the title is, I'm proud to own it as long as it's not too disgusting or that I'm like lemons best friend.
Don't think about that. Well, OK. Oh God.
People write that down, please. Speaking of I don't know where I was like, what can I latch onto here?
I don't know. But anything I've seeking of literally anything, which is what we do, we have a live show that we keep forgetting to mention at the beginning of the episode. Yes. On February 26. We're super excited. We're doing like a ticket giveaway that we're super excited about on Instagram or on social media. Our lovely pal Jess, who does the newsletter and some of our social media is setting up this awesome activity.
I don't even know what it's called, but it's super cool and fun. And we're we're going to be late giving away tickets. It's going to be great.
So you can follow the podcast or you could just come to our show, which is on February 26th, right?
Yes, February 26. Do we know the link? Oh, is it? And that's why I drink from our couches or that's the email. Oh yeah. Hmm. I really don't know.
It was like I sent this to you two weeks ago in a fucking chat. Also, for those of you, it is going to be us reading new listeners' stories that you can submit for us to read on the show or during the live show. Those live stories are those personal stories should be sent to us from our couches at Gmail dot com. Yes, that is correct.
Also, I've just chatted us and said on location live dotcom W.D. and she's double checking on that, but I think that is the ticket link. So come show up. It's, what, ten bucks?
We're going to have a super good time and I can't wait. I just want to get that out there before we forgot.
No, we have really have been forgetting. I feel bad because the last the last two live shows, we really, really, really pushed it like this. In this time, we're like, oh yeah, we have a live show. And now I feel like it's like, what day is that? I call into the wayside. But anyway, please come to our live show. It's definitely a nice way to spend a Friday. I suppose it'll be really fun.
We're going to I'm going to be boozing it up with you cannot wait.
There's going to be like a Q&A in intermission and can I make one teeny announcement? Oh yeah.
OK, I'm just very excited because as a lot of you apparently don't know, I host a podcast with my brother called Beach U.S.A. Water to at.
But he also started his own show called Human Seeking Human, where he reads like personal ads from old old newspapers.
And he had me on as his first ever guest and it was super fun.
And he found Litoral photos and articles of me from newspapers from like 2005 insisted that I didn't know existed from like me in the school play all these, like, just horribly embarrassing outfits.
And he just sprung it all on me.
And then he made me tell my worst dating story ever. So if you want to hear that, you can listen to human seeking human.
It's it was a fun time and also really kind of brought up a lot of terrible memories. So thanks anyway.
Thanks for the trauma. What were your I'm not going to ask what your favorite, worst dating story was, obviously, because they should go to that episode, but. Was it was it was it was not oh, it was not plays it was a rough time, I tell you what you would have heard about in the first place, but it was the time when I thought that person had a dog. Let's just leave it at that thought. I didn't know this.
You've told me the story. Yes, I think so. I like to talk about it, but I tell it pretty often for someone who doesn't like to talk about it.
So I do remember this story. Yep. It's a stand by. You don't want to share it. I was like, really mortified.
I was like, why am I saying this on a microphone? Also just heads up my sister. Just text me the words. Blood can be used as a substitute for eggs in most recipes, nothing further.
You know what?
It's shocking that, like it took three kids to find a mini Renata through the child. Like, yeah, she had to have three of you to find someone who was just her clone in the disturbing.
A little bit. Yeah. So anyway, speaking of siblings, so do you have any news? Why do you drink?
Unfortunately, no. I'm a very noteworthy person. Oh, I do have I guess something that so I'm starting London Fog Fridays because.
Oh yes. You have to freakin call me.
I really have. And especially in the times where I'm talking about a cold as my topic. It's very interesting.
I bought one and I'm a coffee drinker and I went and bought one was like, what am I doing? So I also first of all, thank you.
I appreciate the love, even though I reap no reward other than their great though. Yeah, you were right. For those of you who are wondering, I have seen a few people say that they tried it and they just didn't like it. And I want to be very clear and let me make up my London fog PSA, my lf PSA, if you will, if you are getting a London fog. A lot of people have been saying, how do I order it?
So I know that I'm getting your experience. And it's for some reason the hot ones are always basically made right. The cold ones, like a lot of employees. And when I say a lot of employees, I personally am talking about Starbucks because that's what I order mine from. They like I can forget like their brains break when you ask for an iced one, like every time I order one, they, like, look a little shocked because I think they're trying to figure out how to make it the fastest, because with an ice London fog, you have to basically let the steep for like ten minutes before you can put ice on it.
And so. Oh, God, you're that customer. Well, I tell them. And so to let you know how I order it, I do tell them in advance, like I like in Iceland and fog. And I then say, I know it takes a while. I don't mind waiting, OK, just because I think a lot of the reason why they look so shocked is because they have they feel like they probably have to relate to me, that it's going to take forever for that drink to be made.
Right. But so if you say like, I know it takes, I think, eight minutes to sleep, say that and also make sure that they are putting vanilla in it, because one of the reasons it can taste like trash is because they're making it the shortcut way, which is they're not sleeping in any brand new T, they're just using ice tea and throwing milk in it, which is not the same thing. That's like there if you get a London fog, if you ask for an nice London fog and it takes a minute and you have you have a cup in your hand, they made it the shortcut way and it's not the right way and make sure that it does have vanilla in it.
So I'm just saying that now, because I've been asked by, I swear, like 300 people exactly how I order it. A lot of people say I'm not a lot, but I've seen quite a few say they're allergic to lavender or they don't like lavender. And that is that in Earl Grey or what is that?
I think it's the I don't know enough about Earl Grey, but I ah, I don't know enough about tea in general. But Earl Grey has the lavender. Yes. Tea leaves. Right. Yeah.
So that could be an issue if you're not a fan of that.
Just I would recommend that an English breakfast maybe as a as a second situation. Sure. Sure.
OK, I love it, but we could get into this on another podcast anyway.
So London Fog Fridays, because so many people have been posting pictures and basically my entire Instagram feed has been me reposting everyone's London fog experiences. We're doing London Fog Fridays now where if you basically I'm going to be every Thursday, which actually is starting today. Oh yeah. Every Thursday I am going to be posting on close friends, which means you do have to join Patrón for this to be able to see my close friends. I'm going to be posting a secret word or a code word or whatever.
And if you take a picture of you with your London fog and tag me in it on a Friday visit, we're only doing this on Fridays. If you tag me a picture of you with your London fog and you use that secret word is the hashtag. So I know that like you saw the hashtag and I know you're a close friend and part of Patrón, you're going to be in a running for me to personally Venmo you five dollars. So you get your next London fog on me.
Such a cute idea. I love it and thank you.
And also, if you happen to not go to like a Starbucks or somewhere else, if you go to a black owned shop also. Right. The restaurant in your tag so I can look it up and make sure it is a black owned place and you'll be in the running ten times. I love this.
This is so fun. So sorry. So you post the code word on Thursday and then I'm going to post it that way. You have all you see a. All Friday, got you OK, and then Friday you have the time to post your yeah, because a lot of people have been tagging me in pictures before I even wake up on Friday. So if I post on Thursday, at least everyone starting from scratch and we wake up late.
So. So if you take a picture of yourself, like today, I have coffee being sorry, but. Oh, click, click, click. I know. But if you take a picture of yourself with your teeth, that's also not a London fog.
What's happening? Because Coffee Bean doesn't offer London fogs on their postmus menu, so. Oh, it's just black too.
But if you take a picture of yourself, one with your T to tag me in it, three, use the hashtag that I post on close friends. And if it's a black owned restaurant or a black owned coffee shop, also write that down so I can double check. It's a black owned space and you'll be in the running for not only a five dollar Venmo from me, but I think we're also going to do a shout out for you in the newsletter.
So fun if you would like to be a part of that London fog Fridays ago. And then that way, all of the London fog pictures I post on Instagram won't just be 100 hundred percent of my feet all week long on that.
So are you reposting those posts, though, or just to your close friend? I would repost them to my close friends. OK, makes sense.
So people don't cheat and steal the code word. Exactly. Got you. OK, cool. Well, I'm excited. I bought one yesterday, so I missed the cutoff, but maybe I'll, I'll save the photo.
I'm just giving people ways to cheat. But never mind. It's in my way to cheat. You can't do it now.
You have to also take a picture of like like a calendar for a calendar. Does it work? Because you can say, look, the calendar on your phone, I got to know what the date is, you know. Oh, like, anyway, this has been very long winded. And you asked why I drink, and it's because I'm happy to announce the London fog. Amazing.
I'm excited to enter and not win because that that's not how this works. But I'm excited to have an excuse to drink for London.
Fogg's perfect. But yeah, that's all I've got your poopy head.
I was on human psyche, human. We're doing well. I'm doing London Fog Fridays and we have a live show. Oh, and I pronounced Beaujolais wrong, which people are like not happy about. And I apologize. I looked at it after, after we recorded and I went, oh yeah.
I completely butchered that. It's Beaujolais, not Beaujolais. OK, I'm sorry, but I was drinking when I was like nineteen. Sorry Mom and dad.
So it sounds like Bujji like I get it. Yeah. Yeah I know. It made me sound like an uncultured swine and I apologize, but that's why he drinks wine out of a box.
I know what to expect for me. French is also not my for any language. Third, fourth, fifth verse.
Let's I'm just putting you on to the world that like since you like box wine, specifically Trader Joe's, maybe they should make one called Trader Joe's. Really true. And you say it's.
Oh speaking of which, look what I brought since it's five my time now I look at you. Cheers. It's a it's actually white today but it's probably not very cold anymore. But that's OK. Cheers.
Here's to you. Christine, once again, once more, let's talk about your boobs. Oh, thank God I was waiting for you to say you like I'm happy. I'm happy to talk about my boobs, my first love. Broadswords was the only thing that I wear, especially nowadays, because they're actually comfortable. And I saw a couple of people on Twitter ordering them. And I was so proud. I was like, now we're bra twins. And I unfollowed me after that.
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Try five pairs of glasses at home for free of Warby Parker dotcom drink. We do have a lot to cover today. And yeah, let's go warning everybody because a lot of you like to listen from most recent and you're working your way down if you're new. So I'm telling you right now it is going to be impossible to listen to this episode and don't take that as a challenge without listening to the previous episode, because this is a part two. And a lot of things I'm going to say are not going to make sense, especially because this is a conspiracy theory.
So if I just dive into lizard people, you're not going to know what the fuck I'm talking about. So also, I want to say thank you to everybody who has been sending me really nice comments about. I just I worked really, really hard on these notes, like a lot harder than I'm going to admit to. But I worked really hard because this isn't just a conspiracy theory, which I would usually cover, like Project Pegasus and like time travel is fun.
This is a conspiracy theory that people are dealing with right now. And it's a really big situation. And it's become it's radicalizing people like Wild Wraith's and it's super political or it's not political, but it's it's inserted itself into politics. And so I appreciate everyone being really nice. And I feel for all the people who are suffering right now. And because I have tried to put so much information into this, unfortunately for those who don't like this topic, this actually has to now become a three parter.
So, no, you guys, you can't not like it because this is one of my favorite topics you've ever covered. It's so creepy and fun. It's true crime and conspiracy. It's not fun. I mean, you know, it's funny. I got beat up. It is it's interesting.
And that's that's also the fine line that I feel like we have to write to because it is really fun. It's like you're totally right and that it's like fun and bananas and like, holy shit, there people think about the stuff. But at the same time, it's really topical. Yeah. Like it's like it's people a lot of reality.
I mean it's like when we talk about like Jonestown or something that's crazy now. But like can you imagine back then when people had family members in it for like people who knew people who died, you know? So yeah, you're right. It's like when it's so timely and people are who are listening could be like, oh shit, my brother or whomever. Yeah.
Yeah. It's and also to remember that even though like it's it's funny in one way because we're talking about things that to people who aren't invested in this, it is so outlandish and wild. But this is just, you know, it's a really good reminder of how easy it is to fall into things. Right. And like and all the people that we're talking about, even though you may want to think of them as terrible people who think all the most extreme things at the beginning of it, at least in terms of Q and on they are victims of brainwashing.
Right. So let's remember that. Yeah. Just in case someone is with their friends and like to joke about this right now while they're listening, just remember there are people who are like truly suffering right now. Yeah. So anyway, here is a light, a candle.
It's called Nordic Kabban. Oh, just for you, it's a nature cozy nature, cozy, subtle and subtle. And also I am a lot of the things I said I would address in this episode I now have to address and the next episode, because this is the weird middle part where I'm explaining a lot of it's a lot. So buckle up.
OK, I'm also I usually I know we like to credit ourselves in that we are usually very down the down the middle and like, you know, we don't really make our personal claims super well known in terms of like where we stand on a story because we yeah. We try to do fair reporting. Yeah. Yeah. Today I'm not going to do that. I am coming to a I'm just announcing my personal opinion entirely. This is a fucking cult like just after after everything that I've read.
Yeah. Especially because this is the group that tells you to quote do your own research. OK, I do. The research and this is a fucking call, so and if you think that it's not not to sound like I'm from I'm in Pakistan, but do your own research because it is absolutely clear we welcome you to do that. And one of the things that I'm going to be talking about today, I'm at least going to be talking about some of the ways I'm going to really focus on that in the next episode.
I have a whole section called Ways that this is a Cult. So look out for that next week. But this is all the stuff kind of leading up to it. OK, great. I'm so excited to just hear the rest. So for those of you who are not listening to me and are listening to this episode first before last week's episode, I'm just going to remind people of some of the crazier beliefs out there. And I'm doing that mainly to let you see how extreme it gets, because as a conspiracy theory, which I would identify as a cult, I don't identify as a cult, as I would define as a cult.
Oh, my God. Wait a second. Hang out in fog. Fridays are becoming kind of. So I don't know.
But it's still, you know, the like. It starts out really, really innocent. It starts out really gradual and it just fucking skyrockets.
So dangerous, though. Yeah. Like you said. So here are some of the beliefs. I'm going to repeat what I said last week, and I'm also going to add on a few things that I found in this week's research. So the I just copy and paste this from last week's notes. The core belief and I'm not talking about the super wild stuff. You can hear about that in last week's episode. The core belief, though, when you really hit like Peak Kuhnen is that Hollywood is stealing children, especially newborns or babies, and keeping them in underground caves.
Elites such as Democrats and Hollywood celebrities are hosting a cult sacrifices. And with these babies, they are either possessed, they're holding these sacrifices for babies that they can eat these babies. And then these Hollywood elites and Democrats, unbeknownst to us, are actually either interdimensional demons or reptilian lizard people. And during this ritual, they shed their skin and drink the blood of these babies because the younger you are, the more Adreno chromes you have in your blood, which is a chemical that apparently is either a psychodelic or works as a fountain of youth, or some say that it helps you gain power above Trump and all these people, and therefore they're controlling the mass media.
Mass media is part of it because Hollywood is in on this and they're covering it up. Also, there is a term that the storm where eventually the storm is coming and the storm is that everyone's going to find out about all of these celebrities there are going to be imprisoned, executed on Guantanamo Bay. And after the storm will be the Great Awakening. We're after all, the bad people are gone. And we realize Kuhnen was right. All along.
We will enter a utopia where we have saved all of the babies from human trafficking. And that's just the basics.
Guys, don't worry.
That's just just I know that seems really vague, but the one person who decided to listen to this first is like a fuck now, like they're checking, they're going see and tried to warn you and you didn't listen. So everything after that, which there's a fucking lot, everything after that all the way down to like the government made Monsters Inc because they felt guilty or wanted to, like, leak this information. That was one of my favorites. Everything that else you hear in Kuhnen falls into just different factions.
But the root of all of this stay is with this Hollywood demon ring. And some of the other things that I learned in this week's research are that Obama is the Antichrist. The pope is a hologram. The moon is hollow. Of course, you should stop paying your debt. So this is where it gets a little cultish. It's OK off your dad. And I'll do that because apparently one of the beliefs is that there is like there was a financial program that from the nineties that was like defunct.
But they think it's coming back and they're going to pay off all your debts. Which one of the things about cults is that they start taking your money and even if you're not paying your money to anybody, they are giving you financial struggles. What else? Oh, yeah, the government is going to steal your children and your neighbors might be in on it. Oh, God. And Trump, if he would have won, would have actually only been the 19th president instead of forty like one twenty twenty like if he won in twenty twenty one or.
Yeah. If he won twenty twenty. Sorry, he would actually like how he's known as forty five forty five president. Yeah. He actually would have just been the nineteenth president because he'll get into it also one X he went on member said in a quote to Anderson Cooper that one of his beliefs was that Q is a group of fifth dimensional interdimensional extra. Terrestrial bipedal bird aliens called the Blue Avians, so like that's the cue, like that's one of the beliefs of who Q is.
They thought that these were oh they like the keep the person person.
So, you know, a person. That's the wrong word. The B, the B, I guess the bird. Because they think that one of the options because one of the things I said I would cover in this week's episode is who is Q Because. Oh yes, that's right. To remind everybody. Q is the anonymous poster who has been on 4chan and then eight chan, and it's has been leaving all these quote, clues for people to decode and that's how they're coming to realize all these things.
Yeah, and there's a lot of conversation about who Q is.
We still don't know. Apparently some extremists think that they are interdimensional blue aliens or something. Oh, my. But anyway, let's really get down to one of the probably most important things that I absolutely did not discuss last week, because I just really needed the time to do more research. Is that in the core belief that there is this Hollywood Democrat elite group of people trafficking children and drinking their blood, if you have any at all background with anti-Semitic tropes?
The core value of this core value of Kuhnen just fuckin screams antisemitism, so I'm going to say now not all of Kuhnen is anti-Semitic, but a lot of factions. And the fact that the core belief of Kuhnen is anti-Semitic, I think it's not 100 percent anti-Semitic, but a lot of people in there would really like to push that narrative. I don't know. I don't want to offend and I'm trying not to offend anybody because a lot of people remember Kuhnen is this huge conspiracy theory where anyone can fall in.
So, like, you're not inherently anti-Semitic when you join Kuhnen. And a lot of people just don't know the historical roots, which I'm about to explain, but a lot of people don't know that that's even an anti-Semitic trope. So when they fall and they have no idea they're being fed this anti-Semitic narrative. Right. And then it becomes still part of it. They're still part of it and have no idea, at least in the beginning. Then again, there are people who are falling into this who already know that trope and agree with it in some way and they're running with it.
So there's a lot of different levels of people in here who actually agree with that shit. But over time, the more extreme you become, the more sinister that thought process gets in. And it's another wonderful way for white nationalists to become your friends.
So love that they love anyway. Love it. So let's talk about it, because I don't think enough people know and I also think that this because a lot of people don't know this might actually be a really good way to maybe rattle some of the people who are lost. McEuen on right now, if you teach them the anti-Semitic history of some of the core values, they might realize, holy shit, this is like I don't fully hopefully, who knows?
But it might be the thing that rattles someone. So, yeah. So since the 12th century, there's this really horrific thing called blood libel accusations.
And basically it's that Jewish people ritualistically murder Christian children. And and for some reason, the intention is to gather or harvest those children's blood, which sounds fresh out of Q and on. Yeah. And interesting parallel.
Yeah. It's once you know that it becomes so clear where this was inspired by. Totally.
And some might say that means that the person who is Q and starting off all of these paranoid beliefs is probably a white nationalist, some of your enemies but also but also a bird, but also a bird like just like, like Hitler and a bird had a baby says it's a racist bird, baby.
No, don't follow the racist bird, baby. So apparently the belief that that Jews are drinking Christian's blood comes originally from this book called a pamphlet, I guess, called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And this was in 1983. It's a fake pamphlet, by the fucking way. Like the text is not it's fiction and it's pretty much just a massive book just listing all the most anti-Semitic things you could think about a person. Sorry, I just spit all over one of the big things being blood libel.
And this wasn't just a one time thing. This has been following Jewish people for almost literally a thousand years. There have been many times in history where Jewish people were tortured. It was kind of like the the witch trials where if you weren't a witch, you would just get tortured until you admitted guilt. You can't win that, right? Yeah. So it only bolstered this opinion that, like, oh, see, Jewish people are admitting to this and it's like, well, I know this for sure.
Yeah, that's. Yeah. So other beliefs are that are through this. It's just, you know, through telephone things, warp and spiral. And so there has also been other blood libel beliefs that like Jewish people don't drink wine, they actually drink blood, OK. Or that on like Jewish certain Jewish holidays, they'll mix children's blood into their pastries. Like, it's really fucking weird if you happen to be someone who's new to Kuhnen or if you know someone who's new to Kuhnen and looking into it.
If you look up powerful elites killing babies and drinking blood, the thousand year old anti Semitic narrative will surface real quick. If you just Google it, you don't even have to put Jews in there. You don't have to put, you know, any anything that's directly anti-Semitic. If you just write that kind of basic concept into Google, you're going to start being really fed a very specific belief system anyway. So most anti Semitic tropes that are inspired are that have been inspired through Kuhnen all kind of come from the protocols, that pamphlet, whether you realize it.
And here are just some of the other things that are maybe a more modern version of that. So one of the big beliefs is that. George Soros and the Rothschilds are in control of the world, if you don't know, they're very wealthy Jewish people. A lot of people say that they own most of the world's wealth or they're part of the Illuminati or something like that. And they often get really involved or their their their character gets involved in a lot of these cults because a lot of angry white nationalists and a lot of angry anti Semitic people like to throw their name into the mix when they're angry about like an easy target.
Exactly. To a point where there have been a few social media marketing companies who have been keeping tabs on posts about them. And pretty much every single one has at least one death threat in the comments. Like like there's just a lot of people have a lot to say about Jewish people and Jewish families who aren't doing anything seriously, like give it a rest, give us a goddamn break. Also, Kuhnen mentions a lot the elders of Zion or a Zionist government that also comes from the protocols, basically, I kind of hinted at earlier, but it comes from Jews almost controlling the world or controlling the media.
Like if you were to type in the media or whatever is eating babies, it it it stems from Jews drink children's blood. It comes from Jewish people, often being Democrats. It also is probably has been really reinforced in this last election. Sorry.
And an alien aliens coming by, an ambulance going by, you know. Oh my God, Zino, I'm not. So she got a new not the new horn. Not to be confused with Zion. Let's see. I know the very different scientists, but. Yeah, so the idea that there's a Zionist government comes in the protocols and it's that it's this conspiracy theory that Jews control Western state governments and that comes from Jewish people, often being Democrats.
And again, like I just said, is probably heavily reinforced in this last election. But because Hollywood has a lot of Jewish people and because Hollywood is mainly Democratic and because Jews are mainly democratic, and that means that all three of them combined, if you're in Hollywood, a Democrat and or Jewish, I'm apparently a triple threat.
The GOP is like, oh, my God. Well, you said the magic words. Apparently, they they're the ones in charge of running the children, the human sex trafficking ring that everyone's afraid of in Q and on. So let's see. It leads to the trope. Sorry, I also wrote these notes super late last night. So if I'm repeating myself a lot, I'm sorry. I just want to really get the point across that, like, if you are in charge of Hollywood, you're basically in charge of the media.
And so now when people say the media has a human sex trafficking ring, that trope is so associated with Jews at this point that you don't have to say the media people already know, especially those who follow the protocols. Yeah, they know that when you say the media or Democrats or Hollywood, you mean Jews. And when you say it's like a about babies. Yeah, yeah. So you only have to know really basic context to be able to read between the lines very clearly.
Totally. And then there's another thing, and the protocol is called the Great Replacement, which is just a terrible white nationalist conspiracy theory that my people are apparently leading immigrants of color into the United States purely so that we can wipe out white people hats and white nationalists will say that this is, quote, the biggest genocide in human history. Oh, for God's sake, hush, Christ. And this is not the first time we've heard anything like this from white nationalists.
But apparently the theory is alive and well. You also heard it at the I remember because I was you know, Charlottesville isn't too far from my hometown. And during the Charlottesville protests a few years ago, a lot of the neo-Nazis there were saying Jews will not replace us. And that was in reference to probably them following the protocols and being afraid of the great replacement.
So it's just horrifying. I mean, obviously, it all like it just a classic fear mongering. It doesn't change.
Like this has been the same, like you said, for thousands of years. It's just going to keep cycling.
It's horrible. It only gets worse. And like and a lot of people were wondering why I didn't talk about this at all last week. And I hope you can see now, like, there's just a lot that I wanted to cover and there was just no way I was going to get through it quickly. But so another belief that Kuhnen has regurgitated out of these protocols is that global conspiracy, global conspiracies in general, are something that Kuhnen really loves to push.
And at this point, after so many centuries, globalists has just kind of become a sneaky way of saying Jewish people, at least in conversations like this. So when you hear. Q and I'm saying there's a global conspiracy, no matter how new they. They are unaware they are of anti-Semitic tropes, they are now pushing to what some people will hear as Jewish people. I see. OK, so other global conspiracies are that the Jews had some responsibility with 9/11.
Like, it's all great, stupid. And so many people in Kuhnen are obviously all right. And that means that they probably know a few white nationalists that they don't identify themselves. And even if you don't identify as it, you probably say some pretty white nationalist shit.
And so they like I said earlier, some people don't really understand this stuff yet, but some people really know about it. And they are for pushing this narrative a sneaky way where people don't even really know what they're saying until it's too fucking late, because it has seeped within their psyche over time. And now they believe these things and it's too late to tell them, like, hey, that was pretty anti-Semitic of you think these things. So that still makes things super dangerous for people, especially white nationalists, because now instead of saying directly, hey, I think Jewish people are eating our babies, you can say, hey, I think that there's a human trafficking ring in Hollywood and God, yeah, it's a global conspiracy.
And it's like so and loaded. And you don't even realize.
And because you can be so because it's such a passive way of being anti-Semitic, you almost get validated. And this new permission to spread that information without getting harassed for your opinion. So it's just extra sinister because now it's almost like people with these genuine beliefs are able to recruit people without anyone noticing. And so Kuhnen, definitely a white nationalist, have been spreading this hatred to newcomers for a while now. Actually, I would say Kuhnen became mainstream in twenty eighteen halfway between pizza gate and this election.
I guess there was a few midterm elections in twenty eighteen where people started really rapping Q on it at rallies. And so that was when it really took off. And I'm not saying that that's the reason for it, that there were all of a sudden these people reading into anti Semitic tropes, whether or not they were aware of that. But in twenty eighteen there was a 12 percent increase in anti-Semitic incidents. In twenty nineteen there were it had a four decade high of the Anti Defamation League of anti-Semitic shit going on in the country in twenty twenty.
The capital, which.
Yeah. Yeah, I, I was just going to say it half as haphazardly. Haphazardly and then I was like, I can't even get to that. But for there's a lot of reasons why a lot of people were angry or had their own view of what storming the Capitol meant. But a lot of it had its hand and anti-Semitic ideology because a lot of Kuhnen people were there, a lot of white nationalists were there. Even if you're one but not the other, you all kind of have the same core beliefs.
You might think that you don't like Jewish people. This one might think that Hollywood is lizard people, but they both come from the same history and you can bond in that. And it was just a bunch of angry people who think that they're right, especially because a lot of white nationalists have read this book called The Turner Diaries, which is more or less, some say, their Bible, the white nationalist Bible. And it's about a violent overthrow of the government, which is so a lot of let's let's put it this way.
A lot of people who stormed the Capitol that day, their, quote, Bible is a violent overthrow of the government. The book ends with mass lynchings, a fire in the streets of DC and quote, This isn't a direct quote, but a paraphrase that every Jew's throat is cut crude and that's victory for them. Cool. What a cool paraphrase. Thank you for sharing your welcome. And so people who were there who apparently see this as a crucial text, we're hanging out with other people who are being fed this kind of information in a really insidious way.
And also we saw a lot of people there who were just beyond anti Semitic. There was a parel, there were signs that were symbols. There were people. There were in Camp Auschwitz shirts of Jesus.
I didn't even see that. Yeah. And and the motto underneath it was the English version of the I don't know how to say it in German, but it's the thing that's on the the thing and. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. The work work brings for you. Yeah. Yeah. So that was the it's written in German at actual Auschwitz. OK, yeah.
But thanks to my side the English version was written under the camp Auschwitz phrase. Q Right.
That's hilarious. Who lets them make these t shirts.
I mean she's somewhat like and well really the answer to that at least terms of Q And on not white nationalists, although I would imagine the answer is the same, is that there are surprisingly so many people somehow in this movement that everyone's got to trade. Everyone's got a skill. And someone skill is be true, you're right, it's like its own and environment. Yeah. So anyway, so those people are floating around the capital that day and they're also floating around Kuhnen on pushing this narrative that Democrats and Hollywood are running this human sex trafficking ring.
And anyone that knows basic knowledge of anti-Semitic tropes knows that if you say Democrats, globalists, whatever, you basically mean Jewish people. And then that and then white nationalists who already knew about the protocols or know about The Turner Diaries are hearing this information and not disagreeing and maybe even writing their own friends into this group where they're understood. And so I do want to say really quickly, I got a lot of this information from some really wonderful websites. I am going to link to a few of them.
I'm going to have even put them in the show notes just so people know where I got this information, because it was really well done. One of my favorites was this blog called Religion and Public by a guy named Paul.
I think it's Jubei, which is funny because it sounds a little like Jew, but Paul Jew deejay yuppy Jubei, right? I have no clue.
Well, anyway, he made it incredible. Several posts on his blog called Religion in Public. And they were charts. There was a bunch of charts of correlations. Right now it's I would argue these are some like the first real studies we're saying about Kuhnen and how they're affecting people's mindsets. Oh, wow. In terms of anti-Semitism, because they were charts that had to do with anti-Semitic tropes being a nationalist or having nationalist views and your interaction with Kuhnen and seeing how all of those work based on every anti-Semitic trope, one by one.
So it was really super interesting. There was another one he did where it just had the comparisons and charts involving Nationalists and Kuhnen. It's really interesting. So I'm going to have even put those in the show notes. Please go look at them. It's super, super interesting. So anyway, that's my little anti-Semitic portion, which I never thought I'd say that sentence.
But anyway, it's it's a really good lesson. And that even if you fall into Kuhnen because you're really about time travel or you're really into just wanting to save people from being human trafficked or you're into the New Age movement, whatever it is, these tropes already exist. And whether or not you know the history, they're going to slowly be enforced on you. And by the time you realize that it might be too late, that's the whole point of this.
And as a topic that is more or less about people who are being brainwashed right now, this is some of the information that they might not even really realize is happening to them because it's seeping in so gradually. So I just want people to know where some of the roots of this come from or the type of people who are recruiting loved ones. Yeah, I did say last time I was going to talk about who is. Q So I don't want to leave people hanging on that because there's a lot of theories, basically.
Q Followers see this is kind of the the best irony of all. By the way, we're not talking about anti-Semitism anymore. So like we can all take a big breath and like, you know, leave that space and be a little more jovial, even though this is still a really sad topic. But we can at least leave the leave the Jewish people alone for a second. Thank God. Have them take a breather. They deserve it. We'll take a breath for all of my fellow Jewish folks.
Oh, my gosh.
I put my window to have some water. I feel like I need to rehydrate. I just rehydrate, too. That was really it was really exhausting to cover that because I was like, I don't want to offend anyone. But also people need to know about this.
So it's definitely a different reporting than ghosts and aliens like.
So I, I'm used to getting to be lighthearted with my stuff and one to make sure that I wasn't upsetting anyone more than they already deserve it. You did a great job. So who is Kuhnen. The the biggest irony of them all to me is that Kuhnen is this whole group that tells you don't trust on source are unreliable sources don't trust reliable sources.
And yet Q is an unreliable source. And that's where they're getting all these like fuckin codes from and all these little messages from. So for them to see the the secrecy of Q and not knowing who he is and this Mystere, and they consider that the ultra credibility is just beyond to me and it lets you kind of get a quick glimpse into how warped this thinking is.
Yeah. Yeah. Like how it just doesn't even doesn't click.
You could go someone be like, oh I don't trust sources, I can't, I don't know like I don't know exactly. Well. Oh OK. Well then who is. Q Well I don't know. OK, well then why are you fucking listening to him. It just doesn't track. So there are big names that people think could be. Q Although big names in Q and on like famous YouTube and all these people who are profiting off of the Kuhnen movement, they say that they have opinions on who they think Q is, but they won't even hint who they think it is because they think Hollywood would.
Find out and they would get killed like he would get killed and compromise or whatever, so wouldn't want that. Yeah, wouldn't want that. So 4chan, which I've talked about before, my favorite trusted source, that's the only place actually I don't trust anything you're saying because I get all my news from 4chan.
There's nothing I love more than trusting only 4chan and IBMs world. Oh, right.
Right, right, right. And addicting Gamescom. But that's it. OK, but a different Gamescom actually had some fun stuff on their line volleyball man. Oh, I was the I like the parking car.
One way to park into the parking lot. That was fun. We had fun games, kids.
We had parking games on Monday. You could park a car on the play in the computer lab.
So I don't know what else you want to hear on my family computer where I had to unplug the phone if I wanted a chance at dial up or we had phones that plugged in, it's a whole thing anyway.
So, OK, so 4chan was again, please go listen to the last episode. Also, please go in episode one seventy five because that's where I cover anonymous 4chan and that will give you a lot of insight into this really quick thing I'm going to mention, because I assume everyone's already heard me talk about it.
4Chan was originally for pretty lonely people who this was back in the day before. There was a lot of Internet and a lot of content out there. So on 4chan, people could go say whatever they wanted. And since being viral was kind of a brand new thing, everyone wanted to be viral. And so since you were anonymously posting, you could get away with some really shocking shit with the intent of being the one that goes viral or the trying to grab attention before anyone else could.
So one of the big genres on 4chan to grab people's attention were things like Kuhnen. So one of the things I find interesting is Kuhnen was never even a novel idea that there was this top secret anonymous person leaving codes for people or trying to help people wake up and see behind the scenes. Yeah, Kuhnen was actually a huge playing field. There was FBI Annon, there was Leonhard, which is high level insider. There was CIA and on there was CIA intern, there was White House insider and on.
And so it was all more or less the exact same thing where they would say, I have top secret clearance or I know something the world doesn't know, but I can't tell you who I am. But here are different chlorides, defoliants, OK? And during this genre of 4chan, other people, like, knew it was a joke. Or if they didn't, they didn't take it that seriously. But the goal was like to keep the thread moving.
People would boost it by leaving other comments like, oh, no, wait, I'm I'm FBI.
And wait a minute, I just see you in the break room or like, they got it. It was a joke. It was a game of like playing along or trying to make them stumble like, oh, if this is your proof that how come this, this and this? So it was very lighthearted compared to today. And if it was taken seriously, at least enough people weren't touching it, then nothing happened. But for some reason, when Kuhnen showed up, people just fucking rode that wave compared to all the other times, I don't know what was going on.
Must have been something in the water, like hit the right nerve. Yeah. Or the right time at the right person who had a desire to spread it, which is probably exactly what happened, because there were three people, two of them were 4chan moderators and one of them was a YouTube. Aha. Their names were Paul Furber, Coleman Rogers and Tracy Diaz, who are now, I think all very huge people in the Q and on World. They're like Q and on celebrities.
All three of them basically took what she was saying on 4chan and started spreading it on social media.
Aha. OK, so that gave it a platform so gave it up. It spread amongst, it went farther than just a bunch of lonely people on 4chan who had ignored eventually. Yeah. And so eventually the three of them kind of got really well known. One of them even went off and created this thing called Patriots Soapbox where I think I don't know which one it was, but one of them created Patriots Soapbox, which has now become this like huge YouTube, I think live streaming platform where like politicians have guessed it on this sort of like people in power are guesting on this as a Q with a Kuhnen host or whatever.
So that's, again, only furthering the narrative. But anyway, so a lot of people think it could be patriae on SOPA or a Patriot Soapbox. Some people think free speech here.
It's their Patriot Patriot. If you spend two dollars a month, you can see Ted Cruz talk about his vacation with that's really, really with Elizabeth it.
So we talked about best friends recently, and since then I have advanced nine levels, I'm now on 889, so I'm passing about people, I'm close knit. I see some more up at about a thousand. So I'm catching up. Folks, be careful. Breastfeeds is basically what I do with all of my time. If I'm even if I'm watching TV, even if I'm like at the doctor's office or wherever I am, it's like such a nice relaxing game to play.
And the best part of thespians is there's something new every day. And tomorrow and the day after that, literally thousands of levels of play and counting plus tons of cute characters. You know, we love to get attached to characters.
Yes. So I have my favorites. It's all thing. If you ever get tired of solving puzzles, good news, because with best friends, the fun never ends. Don't blame us if you become slightly obsessed, you might.
So welcome to the club. Download breastfeeds free today on the App Store or Google Play. That's friends without the R best friends.
Hello, Frank. Well, my echo sounds super weird today, I'm in a cave. Help me. Help me. I'm not going to help you, but I will lower you down my other portion of Helo fresh, and that means a lot.
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And he's like, you made me cook it. And I was like, I know, but wasn't it fun?
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But so yeah some people think it was the original queue was Patriot's Soapbox or one of the three people because since they already were somehow invested in spreading it on social media, one of them must have cared. Interesting. Be furthering it and they're clearly still invested enough that like it's. Yeah. Important thing to them. Yeah. Gave them their careers based. So of course if CU exists they would want to be in on the breadcrumbs or whatever it is.
A lot of people actually also into and on either are really big fans of them or judge them because it sounds like if it was them then they never really cared about Q at all. They just cared about profiting and getting ads on YouTube. And a lot of times when they talk about Kuhnen, they'll like actually list their patron for donations and stuff. So it feels like they made this whole thing up just for profit. Right. OK, so diehards will say, no, that's not the case.
Other people have said like Kuhnen could exist and if they're responsible, then they only really wanted it for the wrong reason. Right, right. OK, so the other big thoughts, there are three main theories for who Q is. Basically, it's either a single individual, it is a collective, or it was an individual who became a collective. So if it was or if it was an individual, it could have been some people literally fucking think it's Trump, right?
People are intelligent. Intelligence could pull that off for sure. According to them, he is super smart. And all of his tweets that are spelled wrong or something like that overall actually are codes.
You did teach me that last week. I forgot. So I'm too stupid.
A lot of people think that Trump is one of, quote, the smartest man in the world because he plays dumb to the people who are sheeple and unaware of what's going on. But to the people who are awake, he is giving them cues, codes and stuff. Yeah. So either it's Trump, it's a White House or Trump admin person. Some people think it's more of the original influencers. Like I said, some people think it's literally a random fucking kid in his basement who it just spiraled out of control one day because he was like, I just wanted to play the fucking game on 4chan.
Everyone else was playing a White House intern. Got to play. Exactly. So imagine that.
Could also imagine and you're like Jewish or something like that. OK, that's like the darkest, funniest thing, Valov. Like you're like it was ironic.
So didn't fucking mean for this to happen.
Oh my God. That's horrifying. That's a really horrifying, really horrifying.
I really hope that's not the case because I don't know what I hope because like, part of me is like, well, is it worse if it's a white nationalist like. Exactly. I don't know. It's all just fucking terrible.
It could be anyone from any spectrum, especially under the belief that it was an individual and now it's a collective, because then it almost removes the original responsibility from the first person. And it really could have been just a random person on line thinking they were playing a game and all of a sudden she was like, fuck this. And out of hand.
Yeah, people think it could literally be JFK Jr., because if you listen to my last episode, the last episode, we talked about how JFK Jr. is alive, according to some crew, people dead, according to some key people dead, according to like everyone and everyone else, a lot of people, which I will get into this one and a little bit.
But one of the things that some X Kuhnen people have come out and said is that they think it could be a boomer baby boomer, OK, because instead of them reading the weird breadcrumbs or reading the weird codes that Cuba was leaking, that doesn't make sense to the rest of the world. But if you were trying to figure it out, you'd understand what he was saying. A lot of people ran headfirst into it and said, OK, so these are codes.
That's why he's spelling things weird. But other people who got out said, I think this is a baby boomer who doesn't know how to fucking type.
Oh, my God. Can you imagine? That realization you leave cute on, you're like, oh, my God, it was just like someone's grandpa. Yeah, the whole time. Like who doesn't know how to use a keyboard. Exactly.
So a lot of people have thought, like, this doesn't make sense. He's like Kuhnen is telling us that he like I'm just going to say no. But there is one guy who's really big in helping people. And he said that the thing that got him was Kuhnen was talking about like how he had just deactivated seven satellites. And this guy was like, you couldn't deactivate seven satellites, but you can't fucking figure out, like, where the dots in the slash's go, like, oh, my God.
And so that's another thing about it being kind of koltai in my mind of like the most obvious things that should break. You don't work with the smallest weird thing that everyone else knew all along is the thing that makes people so interesting. So anyway, people think it could be any of those individuals. A lot of people think you could also be JFK specifically because they have this belief that JFK is going to be found out to have been alive this whole time.
The only a lot of people think that he was alive and he was leaving clues for us because apparently his gravesite is literally shaped like a Q So people thought that like, oh, we got JFK Jr. was letting everyone know since the beginning, before people were even paying attention. Q And on the like I'm. Q Okay. People also think you could be a collective, which means it could be a bunch of 4chan people together. It could also kinda cute on people, could be a co-op of intelligence operatives all sharing access to this account to like a leak, whatever they can when they find out about it.
Some people think that it could be it was originally like a random 4chan person and then like intelligence operatives took over. I mean, it could be anything but the biggest running theory. I don't know how how much bigger it is than the rest, but one of the most understood theories is that it is actually a man and his son named Jim and Ron Watkins because they currently run the platform that Q writes on. Oh, so far, so 4chan was the original place that you started.
But then in twenty eighteen, a 4chan got to hostile and they let you don't say.
I never thought anyone would say those words were too. So it's like I thought that was understood to have one like twenty six like can you imagine.
Yeah. Like from literally the first hour. Yeah.
So apparently it got so bad that Q actually got banned on 4chan. And so Q ended up moving to a different forum called Eight Chan and Right. One day and mysteriously also got deleted like not just Q and on got banned from it, but Aitchison itself went the fuck away like wow OK. And so Q ended up having to move again. And so basically Q seems to be hopping around the Internet because what you and on people thought or rikoon on followers believed is that he was getting found out and censored.
And so Q had to keep infiltrating newspapers to share this information. Really what happened for the people who are not in Kuhnen is that 4chan did take Reddit down because there were some really extreme 4chan boards going on. A lot of people who were interacting with Q on 4chan ended up trying to go somewhere else because they didn't like that they were being censored. If you remember from my anonymous episode, one thing a lot of 4chan, anonymous people fucking hate the censorship.
Right? And so when they got banned from certain boards and saying what they wanted, they just stopped using 4chan altogether. So there was this guy named Fred Brenin and he created H. And he was definitely like, I think, a 4chan person on his own. And then he created HCN because he thought that 4chan didn't allow enough control. Sure. So he created a when everyone got banned, all of a sudden he noticed that his page, HCN, was all of a sudden getting all these people.
And he was like, oh, shit. Like I never thought it would take off like this, but he had created it right after a bunch of anonymous people had been censored and they needed a new place. And he was like he literally he quote said, I made the shitty decision to let all of the user stay because his he was his website was gaining traction. And he never saw that coming. And since he he had basically created a community of people who agreed with him, like, I don't like being censored either.
So let's all hop on here and continue the.
Q So it's another case of like, oh, I didn't mean for that to happen.
Basically there was, I think, more intent because he was hoping for people to treat it like 4chan, but more I don't know. I don't want to say he hoped for it to be more hostile, but he hoped for people to feel like they had more freedom to say whatever they wanted. And amongst the Kiip, the 4chan community, that kind of means like, I'm going to give you full permission to do whatever the fuck you want and let's see what happens.
Yeah, OK. And it really fucking went there. So like he be careful what you wish for, I guess, because he he wanted them to have the freedom to say what they wanted on his page and they had the fucking freedom. Wow. And in a. You cases, remember I told you that once Kuis moved from 4chan to eight Channe and then shandies mysteriously fucking went away one day? Yeah, yeah. So that Fred Breton's company, HLN, it vanished one day because apparently so many people were writing really wild, extreme shit on there that they ended up finding at least three cases of really, really brutal murders.
And the people before they had either committed these murders or were imprisoned or whatever, they had left like manifestoes on each.
Oh, dear God, OK.
And so it just goes to show you how wild human nature will take something, right.
Like the it'll just end up the lowest denomination, like it'll get dragged to the lowest point.
So basically, Fred was like around the same time he was already in talks with a guy, Jim Watkins, who already basically ran an eight channel or ran something similar to it in the Philippines. And Jim Watkins was like, let me take over for you. And after those three murders, specifically one murder in El Paso that really determine where he was like, fuck this, I don't want the responsibility anymore. I'm giving Jim Watkins eight.
Oh, so he backed out like back personally. He was like this. This is too fucking. It wasn't like the government was like, this is too much. It was like he chose to shut it down or to leave.
So. So, OK, no gear. You didn't I didn't say something correctly. So after that, that El Paso shooting where they found a manifesto, the hosts, the network host that was actually putting out H in like stepped in and they were like, fuck this anymore. And they wiped it out. At the same time, Fred was like, I don't want the responsibility anyway. So if it comes back on, like, that's Jim, walk the like.
Good for you. Bye. OK, got it. Got it. Got it. That makes sense. So Jim Watkins ended up taking over and turning it into, I think like an extension of his own company which happened to be called like eight cune eight coon, eight God KUNR.
What does that mean. I don't want to know. I don't want to know either. I, I don't know. I sense it's in the Philippines. I assumed it was like a Chugalug word for chavy, something. I don't know if I'm wildly ignorant and saying something that I shouldn't be saying, please let me go to apologize. But it was eight kunr so.
Yeah. So you're right. Maybe it was just like a translation of eight.
Yeah. That's what it felt like to me as someone who's not involved in this stuff. But so anyway, after Fred stepped out, Jim Watkins and his son ended up taking it over and they had been following you since before it was even on. And I think and they had watches. And so the one of the big running theories is that they're either Kuis themselves or they have friends who are willing to be Kuis on their behalf just so that because Q had become such a big hit on their platform, they were either pushing the Q narrative or paying other people to do it or had friends who would do it that way.
The numbers would keep growing on their platform.
So I have a quick question, so I don't know if you know the answer, but so are they based in the Philippines themselves or is the site just run through Philippines?
Jim Watkins's in the Philippines. He is. OK, so Q might be in the Philippines.
Q Might be in the Philippines. OK, I don't totally understand Jim Walkinshaw situation. Fred had a lot to say. There was a really good vice documentary where they interviewed him and he was talking about Jim a lot. And there's also been he's been in other interviews where he is like I 100 percent think it's Jim Watkins'. Oh, really? Just trying to he's just trying to push his own. He's not even trying to push his own narrative. He's just trying to go with what everyone wants to see, which is Q and on shit show.
And I'm going to get into this later about like what the personality traits are of people who usually fall into this kind of thing. Gotcha. But one of them happens to be if you're really Christian. Apparently Fred has been like Jim Watkins was never religious. I never knew him to be religious at all. But now if you follow, like, his individual social media stuff, it's all very Christian.
It's almost like he's trying to lure in people also like his son, Ron, who's also big on the platform.
He's really into like yoga and ambient electronica music. And then cue all of a sudden, like, randomly started posting yoga stuff with that music in the background.
Can you imagine my dad can I please do share my newest electronica?
Be on on your website, please. Just one link.
I just need a little bit of a viewership. Well, so a lot of the a lot of especially Fred, but a lot of people also think the like a lot of the tenants or some of like cuz more random breadcrumbs or Q drops, they all very much followed suit to like something that Jim Moran would be interested in.
And also Jim, Jim Watkins' loved the protocols. Oh God, what a creep. I don't know if he well I don't want to get in trouble and say that he loved the protocols and was incredibly anti. Let's just say that, but yeah, OK, I will say he according to Fred, he definitely knew about the protocols and he was very aware of conspiracy theories. So he whether or not he loved it or liked it, he definitely knew about it and was definitely pushing the narrative.
OK. OK, so which is more than a lot of people, so. Yeah. Makes sense. So I take it back. He was he didn't love the protocols. However we don't know I guess we don't know. I don't know. Allegedly, allegedly. Allegedly. But apparently he definitely knew about it. OK, and so similarly there were a lot of tweets on Jim or I guess on Brons personal Twitter that was almost identical to shit that Q was then saying, like within the same couple hours or smooth, he's trying to get his followers up.
Like, what does he do is, I guess, stupid? Well, it sounds like Ron was posting these things first and then they would randomly show up on cue and then, like, Ron's original post would get deleted.
So it looks like it looks like, OK, so maybe Jim and Ron or Q because they're posting the same shit on different feeds and then hiding one of them. Oh, we heard. So anyway, Fred, this is a quote from Fred where he says, I definitely, definitely 100 percent believe that he either knows Ron or Jim Watkins or was hired by Ron or John Watkins. And some of their friends do include Paul Furber, who was one of the original three who spread KIU all over.
Oh, dear. OK, so people think like it's interesting that you two are friends. Yeah. Also so I said this last episode, but Kuis originally came out on 4chan but in a specific thread called Calm before the Storm. Right. Which is a whole other cue fucking thing. But Kuis came out on a thread called Calm before the storm, which was ran by Paul Phurba, who also then ran with the cute stuff and spread it all over mass media.
And he is friends with Jim Watkins. Yeah, I guess so.
Which then owned the platform. Who then owned the platform that this.
Yes. So then you. Yeah. And Jim Watkins. So he's known the original person who spread Kuzmich from the beginning. So it's like a lot of things click to make it very shady. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And Ron and Jim have said I don't know anything about that. So like they're like we run an actual anonymous website. We don't know who she is. But then you could easily say, well, that's what someone who was cute would say, you know.
Sure. Yeah, exactly that. Does it prove you innocent at all? So I've got two more little categories. I'm sorry this is so long.
I know. Take your time, dude. I'm fascinated because here I'm I'm so sorry also to people. I keep repeating myself and I hear it, but I just feel like there's so much wild bullshit.
I'm trying to say so quickly that, no, I need it. I need to like, process it. I just feel like it's helping. It's good. I know you're doing it.
You're not repeating yourself. And if you are, I'm only getting it once. So I click.
I feel myself, I'm looking at my bullets and every time I'm going through a new bullet, it's like I already said that a couple of minutes ago.
But then it's like I feel like you're just saying it in a way that is just a digest trying to remind myself, like, where the hell this comes from.
Like what what I'm trying to make. So anyway, this new category is called Personalities Most Likely to Fall for a conspiracy theory.
Oh, boy, oh, boy.
And by conspiracy theory, I do mean genuinely conspiracy theories at first. So any any this kind of this episode morphed from Kuhnen to conspiracy theories in general, because I then wanted in the next episode to say why I personally think that this is a cult gotcha.
That's going to be your thesis statement.
And in conclusion, this is a cult. So this is personalities of people who fall for conspiracy theories, slash Kuhnen like I mean, that's that's included in this umbrella. So the first one right away is that conspiracy theory is usually kind of pop up in general during civil unrest, which.
Hi, it's hey, what's up? So it's when a lot of people are feeling out of control, when they're feeling alone, when they're looking for answers, or it certainly helps when they have nothing but time on their hands. And also part of the civil unrest is a year long quarantine.
So really the the perfect storm in many ways, because I don't I think I'll get into a more next week. But it there really is something to be said about the climate that we're in and how it just couldn't be more perfect for breeding conspiracy, because if we weren't in a pandemic, if the coronavirus didn't exist, Kupe might exist, but it would not be us. I mean, it would still exist because it existed before the pandemic, but it would not be what it is today.
Surely Resnikoff, where it is, is because everyone was home alone, bored and desperate for social unrest.
Yeah, it's like fuel to the fire. So we'll get into that a little bit later. But so those are some of the main. Personalities, personality traits, usually you have to be on the end of a political spectrum, the more extreme you are on either end, the more likely you are to fall into a conspiracy theory and that that includes Democrats and liberals. A lot of people think that this is all Republicans and all conservatives. But surprisingly, a lot of Kuhnen people started as Bernie supporters.
They were all really disappointed when Hillary beat Bernie out at the DNC or for the DNC. And so they were online talking about it and very quickly swayed by anti Clinton content. And this anti Hillary Clinton content leads you to pizza, right in the last.
And then how do you like you set out? You say. You turn away from human trafficking at that point in there, so it people fall into that really fast and anyone is capable of this. So I don't want to just blame Trump supporters, even though I sure would like to.
But some people on the winning team also end up on the losing team, in my opinion.
So. Well, that was deep and beautiful. I don't know.
But I expect someone who voted for Trump to yell at me on Twitter now, but. Well, they do anyway.
I mean, that's not new for us. So that's old news. So at first, a lot of people who were in Kuhnen because to me, Kuhnen is only as old as this pandemic because that's as early as I'd been hearing about it personally. Sure. That's what I was like, more mainstream. Right.
Like, that's when it kind of became more mainstream in twenty eighteen. But as of 2020 is the big boom. The big kuhnen got it. And that's where in my head it lives. But I do have to remember that Kuhnen has been around since pizza. So 2016. So there are people who have been in Kuhnen for years and at first in those early years, the first people involved and even early on in our in this pandemic, and I would still say the majority of people falling for you and I are older, white, Christian conservative voters.
But because of the pandemic and social media, Kuhnen has swept into all different audiences. And I want to take this moment to to remind you that, yes, this is a conspiracy theory, which I think has turned into a cult. But this is also we're watching we're we're in the middle of a history right here where we're watching people become brainwashed day by day. And a lot of people want to say, which I know we've addressed before, when it comes to you covering cults, a lot of people want to say, oh, how could you be so stupid to fall for this shit?
But like anyone of any intelligence can be brainwashed totally. It's just different narratives that people follow that lead you to take advantage of in a way. Yeah.
So no matter how smart you are, you can accidentally fall into something like this. And it is true, statistically, those with lower educations are more likely. There are some that I keep the stats. It was the I didn't keep the stats, but there was a surprising amount of surveys of people falling for Q and on who not only had finished high school or college, but had postgrad degrees. I mean, every all, all groups of people are falling for this.
Other personality traits are high levels of insecurity, high levels of anxiety, feelings. I know my feelings of anxiety, anger, feelings of isolation, a need for a purpose, a need for control, especially when the world feels out of control, a need for validation in your own theories and the need for feeling special. So. Aha, interesting.
And there's nothing more special than thinking you've cracked the code to a top secret. Top secret plan, you know. Yeah. And you're in on it. You, you know the secret, you're in on it with other people.
And if people don't believe you that's exactly what the world wanted to happen anyway. So you're only validated by believing you because you are so above in a depression that we're trying to show our postgraduates.
We're like, well, you know, big word.
The only thing I got out of having a Masters is I know the word. That's me, too.
We watched clearly apparently went to the same school because Boston University, that is our five star rating.
We now know the word. Thank you, by the way, for that. I know how to hold the camera. That's pretty cool. OK, so those are some other traits and usually the more untrusting you are or the more anti-establishment or hansei authority you are, which is interesting to me because it's also the more like a militant or like a right, like wanting to be part of a.
Yeah, it's weird because it's like two completely different things to me. But the same thing we're interesting anyway. I mean, I know what you mean. Thank you. And I went to be you said everybody else gets it, but I guess you speak your language. You have you're on another echelon.
So myself. Wow. Today's episode. Beautiful. So yeah, if you're really untrusting, if you are anti-establishment, also, if you're really skeptical of science, if you have an interest in debate, I have none of those to last two.
So basically what I'm that's the nice way of me saying if you're a white man who likes playing devil's advocate.
Yeah. Actually. Well actually yeah. Well actually also if you are arrogant or stubborn and have them you said Aryan.
I was like well oh covered that. We have covered that. OK, I see, I see. I didn't put that on the list but apparently that does make some of the qualifiers. Apparently so. So if you're arrogant or stubborn and by that I mean because once you have fallen for this you are either too arrogant to think you're wrong or you're too stubborn to accept that you were wrong. Gotcha.
OK. And if you have a big ego, because you're going to have people validating how smart you are to have cracked the code, that's very fascinating because it's almost like you're insecure. But this is a dangerous combination of your insecure. But you also think you're better than other people. You have a big ego, your skew, and you're looking for a group. But you're also I mean, it's yeah. That's a dangerous company.
It's really weird because it's like really I'm just describing any type of person, like, it's like you could be you have a lot of anxiety and a lot of insecurity, but also you're wildly overconfident. So it's like or like you have a lot of fears, but also you fear nothing like it's like what the fuck? Yes.
A very interesting Polar's also I think this probably goes for most conspiracy theories that turn into cults. But I would say especially with the pandemic in this case, one of the RFU calls a personality trait, but having mental health issues has definitely I call it a personality trait. I mean, two counts. But if you have mental health issues and by that I mean if you have anything that is like that allows depression to be a comorbidity because depression, especially high functioning depression or actually any version of depression.
Have you isolating yourself from people and. Right. Anxiety will have you escaping into the Internet to remove yourself from social interaction. Right. And during this year, I mean, raise your fucking hand if you've been depressed. Seriously, you know, anyone's like anyone.
Yeah, well, it's like looking for a purpose is interesting, too, especially now when people are, like you said at home, there's nothing to distract you if you lose your job like so many people. Did you really you know, what else are you going to do?
You're looking for also if you're going to play The Sims or you're going to like find a also has to push the age, the age range of people being older and they're looking for a purpose. Not only is there a pandemic, but a lot of people lost their jobs early or are retired. Right. So now it's like, what's your new purpose? Like, even if you didn't get fired, bezoar out on a job. So it's basically if you've been depressed, you have a chance of being sutler entire podcast population.
As far as I can tell, we're all screwed.
If you hear anything about lizards, just look the other way, look the other way.
Unless it's like when our listeners post cute photos of their actual lizards, those are the only link to the podcast.
Let me see. Oh, and then the last one that is also pretty crucial is you don't have to fall into any of these categories, but these are just like little signs. One of them is being is having a high value in a religion and not to be someone who is like, you know, pooh poohing on religion, because I don't care if you believe in whatever makes you happy at night and you're not hurting anybody or yourself, I don't care.
But a lot of people could say that if you value religion, you have already been trained or primed to just kind of ride out blind faith in something that doesn't logically make sense.
Sure. So, I mean, the faith aspect is huge. You're right. Like something you can't see.
I mean, I like I don't personally I don't ever really like use this term. But I've heard people before who are not religious say like, oh, so you believe in like a man in the sky or like a sky, daddy, sky, daddy, daddy.
Like in it to someone who is religious, that could be insulting. But to people who don't believe that stuff, it is easy to see how illogical it can seem. But then you could argue the same thing with you and on people like. Oh yeah, like of course I if I can fall for fall for that, I'm not that's not my words. But I'm trying to paraphrase other people here. If you can fall for that, you can fall for something else that sounds kind of ridiculous, aren't invested in it.
To be fair, we believe in like ghosts and things. Yeah, exactly. And time travel, things that have not been proven. And we just blindly are like, nope, it's real, you know.
I mean, also, like, I'm and this is a really good time because you kind of brought it up. This is a great time to mention that when I say anyone could get into Kuhnen, one of the reasons this is so toxic and dangerous right now is because anyone can get it. If you have fucking depression, if you're scared about the state of the world, I mean, raise your goddamn hand. Yeah, yeah. If you believe in anything, I'm like ripe for the picking with Kuhnen.
Like, you cannot convince me otherwise that time travel doesn't exist. Right. I got to believe there's a faction of Kuhnen who are ready to talk to people about time travel and then work you into totally.
There's probably some quantum shit in there which would get me talking, you know. Exactly.
So I mean, anyone this is I'm just listing some of the more common things that people have said before. There are a lot of former Kuhnen people who are now speaking out, and a lot of them had said that they grew up Christian in the beginning. This is, again, not pooh poohing on Christians. This is just the people who have come out and talked about what brought them in. A lot of them will say that their faith got them in.
But a lot of people have also said that their faith got them out so that one person is quoted saying. Christianity played a role in my being primed to believe that something was outlandish or some are to believe something outlandish at all, the fact that you can have that kind of faith in things leads you to OK, leads you to be open into believing things without necessarily being proof. And then another former Q and on person who grew up in the faith said, quote, Theories about evil, evolution, science, denial and the end of the world rapture return of Christ stuff is all pretty crazy too.
I was just thinking creationism like it's an extreme form of belief system and antiscience one.
If one of the big things that they're trying to lure people in with in their core beliefs of Kuhnen, first of all, is that the bad people are anti Christian, right. Is the real core of it. And also, like all these weird little terms, like the storm and the Great Awakening and things like already kind of play into religion, you revelations like end of days.
It's very easy to coax people in who already know that lingo, you know. Yes, totally.
And for them it's a comfort. Like a lot of religious people, they have religion because it's a comfort to them and to explain events in the world. And a lot of people looking into conspiracy theories are looking for answers about what's going on in the world. So when control, like you said. Yeah. So when a conspiracy theory, when their answers are, you know, they sound a little faith based and like, oh, well, there's a storm coming, there's an awakening, there's going to be a utopia.
Everything is happening for a reason. There's a plan. It's really easy for people who already grew up with those thoughts to be like, oh, well, this sounds like right up my alley and it feels like like a comfort zone. So also the good versus evil trope, you're already kind of you've been primed into that. So Kuhnen specific, if you believe in a conspiracy theory, you can probably be lured into. Q Like I just said about me, in time travel, you and quantum physics is one of the worst, best things, one of the worst things in terms of how insidious it is.
But one of the best things for people recruiting others into Kuhnen is that according to the BBC, this is a quote of theirs. Kuhnen is just an amalgamation of all the greatest conspiracy theories thrown into one big belief. So if you believe anything crazy, you're invited to the party and that's just going to be the faction you focus most interesting. So like you can be part, you can be like, oh, I don't believe in all that, but I believe this part of it.
One of the funniest things to me is that Kuhnen, there are groups of people who they all swear by Kuis. They think Trump is their savior, blah, blah, blah. But in terms of like another conspiracy theory that's pretty popular, it'd be like, that's fucking stupid, though. You're a crazy person for thinking that. But anyway, the lizard people and. Right, right, right. So right in that way and I mentioned this later, I'm really going off key here, off topic.
But if you ask me why, I don't know what I like it. They're they're getting in my fucking head. Oh, no. Somebody get a helicopter extraction.
But they but one of the things is that, like, you don't have to believe in all the same stuff, which kind of makes it feel more anti cult because you're not being led to believe all the same stuff. You're almost getting permission to as long as you believe in this one thing, you can believe in anything else. Sure. So there's there's almost it's less strict than what a normal home might be. Plus, there another personality trait or another quality of a person that makes you more susceptible to this is that if you believe in a conspiracy theory, the most telling way that you can believe in a conspiracy theory is if you already believe in another one like it, it's once you believe in what it's a slippery slope.
And it sure the likelihood of you b the likelihood of you being able to fall for something else is so is massive. The significance is crazy. And this one guy who did an AMA on Reddit, he was an execution person. He was answering a bunch of people questions. He said a quote, At this point, the problem isn't to it's gullible people who lack critical thinking skills and gain a massive ego boost and thinking they have a secret.
It's worth noting that conspiracy thinking hooks the brain because it feels like critical thinking, even though it isn't right, because you're piecing together clues and what the shows are nonsensical.
But if you're piecing them together, you're smarter than everyone else.
Yeah, or it's just it's sensical, but you're ignoring a bunch of other information that would. Yeah, that makes sense. Disqualifier.
So this is all one quote. But from the article I read about his AMA, they called him Debe and this because his handle is DB. DB avoids the rabbit hole now because he's an ex member. DB avoids the rabbit hole now by embracing doubt and as as he added some fucking world view humility. So oh he's just added into his own in his own thinking, his own critical thinking felt like he might just be wrong sometimes like interesting. He said quote, The problem with fundamentalist religions, cults and conspiracy theories is they all demonize doubt and all and are also.
Absolutely certain that they have the total truth of reality. Figure it out, I hold my beliefs now more humbly and I acknowledge that I could be wrong. So as one of the big tricks or one of the big suggestions or on how to get someone out is to just get them to accept that you can do things right.
And that's a hard thing to do. I mean, I get that like if you're really believing something, it can be hard to be like maybe I'm wrong.
I get that. Yeah, I mean that. There's just I'm so sorry. This is so long, Christine. I'm so sorry.
I feel bad geocaches barking. I'm trying to mute myself every time it happens. So I just feel terrible because this is for those people who really wanted a long episode or say you love them.
So the you say this is your time to prove it. OK, the next the last section is how people got sucked in and how they act once they're in the cult, which I called it a cult. It's technically a conspiracy theory. It's my opinion is different. But how people got sucked in and how they act once they're in the conspiracy theory of. And so, again, it's usually people got sucked in because this was a time of unrest and when tensions were incredibly high in society and in politics and 20, 20 was really just the perfect environment in terms of unrest.
Usually people only need one thing in terms of civil unrest to start feeling out of control and seek answers. And right now, like, I can't even list how many I unmuted myself to let.
Like, I mean, it's just like the fact that usually it only takes like one situation for people to start losing their mind and slipping away and. Oh, my God.
And all of twenty twenty is just a fuckin spiral. Funny. But it's funny because it's so not funny. No, I mean it's absolute nervous laughter of like it's horrific. Like, wow. It would only take one issue to make you become a conspiracy theorist. Well here's twenty twenty where everyone is spiraling in their own way and I didn't get this from any, any articles or anything. So I want people to think I'm referencing an actual phrase. But I through my research have considered that this is like in terms of cults or conspiracy theories.
This is like the first real Internet scandal or digital cult maybe to me, because there was a mass hysteria and desperation for some sort of solace or community when there was none for anybody, the entire world to shut down. And everyone was desperate for an answer. And so most stories of people joining Kuhnen during the pandemic is just they had nothing but time on their hands and they got quickly sucked down rabbit holes. And originally, like I said, older folks are more likely to be in Kuhnen because they actually didn't know what rabbit holes were.
They don't understand algorithm's on top of that, like just not understanding, like how quickly you can fall into something on the Internet because you just like kind of like the digital literacy. There is an ex neo-Nazi that's been going on a bunch of interviews discussing her stance on Kuhnen and her name, Shannon Folie Martinez. And this is a quote of hers from a news interview. She said, Kuhnen folks tend to be middle aged and older people who feel like they're tech savvy, but they aren't actually.
So their ability to fact check is often limited and they think they're doing it right. So it's just a combination of pretty much baby boomers who don't know how potent the Internet can be, thinking they're doing proper research, which is ironic because they were like the people who told us to not trust anything on the Internet. Yeah. And now so I have a point. And a lot of younger people, because we were all in a pandemic and it started seeping into other age groups, usually the people our age who get invested in this are part of like New Age Facebook groups or things like that.
And then through the algorithm, there are only one or two clicks away from page from pages like the Great Awakening because, oh, God, there was one person, her name was Melissa, but she truly found Kuhnen and was like a huge, like huge and Kuhnen like super radicalized. And it was because she followed a bunch of like Facebook pages about like frequencies and energies. And I mean, how quickly can we fall down that? Oh, God, I just got goose cave.
Like, I need to check my Facebook page. And her algorithm said, like, here's a page you might be interested in news just called the Great Awakening, which sounds very like woo woo energy lingo like that. Yeah. And before she knew what she was in the goddamn community and so. Oh, my God. Because it's it's just starts with like energy, blah, blah, blah. And then it's like, oh, you know, these people know how to do energy this way.
And oh, did you know that this is energy that Trump uses? And then it becomes like this huge like Trump is our savior and he is the light and all this bullshit. So.
Oh, so there's one company called Graphics and they're like a social media analysis group. And they said that sends Kuhnen is easily and vaguely anti-establishment. It can seep into just so many fucking algorithms because everyone in one way or another is fucked the system. And so it bestival most of us. Yeah, but probably if you listen to this show, probably feels like at least after 2020, all of us have a problem in one way or another. You're right.
You're going. That's fair. And so because Kuhnen is anti-establishment or anti government and at least one way or another, each faction has their own way of feeling angry at the government or the system or whatever you want to say so they can just go find really anyone and have something to talk about. And it's apparently traffick. What they found was that Kuhnen people best seep into people through spirituality and religion forums. And their quote is that people are often most vulnerable when they're seeking spiritual information online and more susceptible to alternate views, because you're already opening yourself up to things you don't totally understand.
Of course. So ironically, some folks just got sucked in. This is just a whole other faction of people that join Kuhnen. They are people who were the probably 99 percent white man who wanted to be devil's advocate. And they fell into Kuhnen because they were looking through forums to have ammo. When they created online debates, they were just like if they wanted to fight with a liberal online and they wanted their own books, they would be like, do your research.
And then all of a sudden they very quickly fell into Kuhnen because they were looking for more usual, their source or whatever right wing sources. And sure, once you're looking at right wing sources, very quickly, Kuhnen becomes an option in your algorithm. Not to say that if you are right winged, you are kuhnen, but it only takes like one or two less clicks to end up in that kind of stuff in terms of algorithms. So once you're in the cult, you can.
Ah, sorry, I keep saying I'm sorry, but after next week you guys will all feel the fucking same. But once you're in Kuhnen, you are quickly immune to fact checking because the whole point is that you can't trust anyone. You don't trust your back, which is ironic because people are like looking for facts and researching. But you shouldn't trust research.
But like, I think it's if you don't trust science, that's like its own form.
I guess from what I've seen, they don't trust researchers like don't trust people who are backing mass media because they're affiliated with the human sex trafficking rings. And if you're listening to those big corporations, then either you are falling for what they're pumping out to distract or you're enabling it or whatever. So I think it's the less credible the source is, the more homemade it is and the less it's been affiliated with pedophiles and sex rings and lizard people. So therefore, you get this stuff.
Yeah, that's what I always say. Yeah.
Just trust the most fringe and cringe, you know.
So it's very easy to trap yourself in confirmation bias because, well, there's one quote here that says Kuhnen is such a good story. Like this insider is leaking secret government information.
So, of course, like people are fascinated and want to know, even if you at first don't believe it, you just want to be in on the scoop of like I mean, that sounds like saying you and I would like to chat about for fun if it weren't obviously so sinister.
But yeah, but even then, like, we could easily fall into it because we don't realize it's sinister or even if they're saying crazy things, it would be something to almost laugh out with your friends if you don't know the context of, like, I can't believe someone saying the shit. And then all they have to say is one thing that you kind of agree with and they fucked you. Yeah. And if anyone wants you, like, find out that there's like this secret government guy and he's leaking information, if anyone doubts the secret info, I already said this earlier, but it just means that their eyes haven't been opened the way yours are.
You just you're ahead of the game. And so when people doubt you, they'll figure it out eventually. But for now, like you're on top of it. And so with Internet and social media, you can find pretty much any information you want to confirm, anything you believe. So even if it's wrong information, if your goal is confirmation bias and your goal is I have this crazy theory, and if I have to do my own research from sources that aren't part of mass media, you can probably find, quote, bad information or fringe information anywhere if you're looking.
Oh, yeah. Especially when the goal is to avoid credible sources and you're just looking for other people maybe in their basement with the same thought. And now you have to agree with you. I agree with you. And now, by the way, like, it's not just people in your basement. It's all these fucking people who have been infiltrated and now they're like just involved in our society. They're fucking doctors and lawyers and shit and politicians.
So just normal, everyday people. So the more people that are invested in it, the more people are pumping out their own sources for you to agree with them on. And so it just gets so chaotic so quickly, it just snowballs. And people have noted that it's very similar to a choose your own adventure game or not like an alternate reality game, which by the well, by the way, those do really well amongst like the original lonely 4chan, anonymous people.
I mean, they're like, I'm totally stereotyping here.
But a lot a lot of people are into like and this isn't just 4chan, anonymous people, even people our age, people are into like the the Dungeons and Dragons kind of stuff of like if you're someone who's online looking for attention, looking for control and someone saying you're the Dungeon Master, it's like fantasy world place. Exactly. I mean, it's like it's so seductive. Like I totally get why people would be about that. Like, Oh, you mean this is a belief system I get to be in control of and help create.
I mean, it's sure fantastical. There was one Wired article about an actual alternate reality game developer who says that Kuhnen behaves like an RPG because it's Cloo cracking. It is a multiplayer multiplatform scavenger hunt and it creates realities that for people that are sometimes bigger than yourself. So you feel like you're powerful by creating something so powerful. Plus, this is so part of his quote. Plus, it turns one's armchair warrior Googling into a heroic quest for truth.
And if players solve one puzzle, they crave the fun of tackling more and more and more. So, I mean, it's total sense. How on earth can you not want to be a part of Kuhnen if that's the angle you get steeped in with of like, here's a fucking escape room, figure it out like, ah, here's like it's like real life.
It's not just like a game. It's like here's you're really cracking the real code and saving bait. Yeah. And then think about like the the camaraderie of like everyone joined together. There's like a almost like a brotherhood or something of like we saved the world or we're on our way to save the world. I mean I'm talking about it and I'm excited about it. And I don't even want to join, you know, like magic. I hope to imagine, like, how quickly someone could fall into that.
So, yes, absolutely. So one of the issues with Kuhnen on social media is that every single day Kuhnen becomes a new fucking thing because new breadcrumbs are released, people's interpretations are varied, more people are joining. Some more interpretations are muddling other interpretations. And basically your every single day the narrative is changing because everyone's got their hand in designing the newest belief or the newest breadcrumb that has to do with another conspiracy. Right? It's just a web tangling into webs, into webs and webs.
This makes it really hard for people who are trying to get loved ones out or even like data scientists trying to keep track of the shit. It's really hard to monitor and it's really hard to shake people out of this because you get invested so quickly. If on day one you're the dungeon master and you're fucking solving puzzles and saving babies by, like, fucking day ten, like it's too late, you've already convinced yourself of all of these different world.
You've probably invested a lot of time and energy, so much time, so much energy. And so with all of the time that you've invested in all of the clues that you have found yourself realizing, it's so quickly, it's so it's too late to back out. Plus, if someone doesn't agree with you, just tell them to do their own research space. This is just coming is just a stadium of seven people saying, I'm right. And like, you're if you don't believe me, you just haven't done the research, which means they're all also conflicting with each other, just a belief system that says everyone's right, everyone's wrong.
If they don't think you're right and everyone needs to do their research. And if they don't do the same research you did, then they're still and they're doing the wrong research. But, yeah, there's no fucking rhyme or reason. And so that like I said earlier, it's unlike a cult because it gives you the freedom to believe whatever you want, even if it's different from other people in the same movement. But again, all stems from this big Hollywood sex ring, human trafficking situation.
So, like, that's all you really need to agree with ultimately one day, even if it sounds extreme. Now, if you get there, everyone involved in Kuhnen is just doing their own research in their own faction. And on top of it, they have a fucking public figure, Trump, a literal fucking president, one of the most powerful people in the country or in the world not denouncing you, which is enough to bolster their beliefs and their movement.
And they feel their loyalty solidified and their opinions validated. And in Kuhnen Trump also reminder, is their leader and saving babies from human trafficking. So to challenge. Q And on follower with comments of stupid things, Trump said it's not going to work because it's their leader, it's their savior. It's someone who is leading code. So of course you think what he's saying is stupid because you haven't figured out the messages he's actually relaying, so it just makes them double down.
And so there it also helps them affirm their own belief that Trump stands for the same things. If you know, you happen to be someone who thinks the election was a fraud or covid was man made or all these other little. Things that Kuhnen says on their own, and then Trump is on TV saying the same thing. You're like, Oh my God, my superhero is confirming that I'm on the right totally or totally. It's. And so if you have those opinions and now he's saying them, of course, you feel validated.
And a lot of lost people believe that their purpose is or people think that they have found purpose when they were already lost, they found their purpose in Kuhnen. So now if you're threatening Kuhnen or challenging them or saying it's stupid, you're it's a threat to their own self identity and the time they've invested, like you said, the community who understands them, the community who's helping them save people and challenging them just doesn't work, which makes it very similar to cults, because all you're doing is helping them dive deeper into the community that they should be running from.
Right. Like dig their heels in. Yeah. So when your belief system is that the more pushback you're getting, the more you're on to something that they don't want you to know. It is just again, on top of an already perfect storm with how wild the last year has been and everyone's home and looking for social interaction, all that. And on top of it, the reasoning is or the on top of that, your note, your new belief system is if people say you're wrong, you're right.
It's just it's a vicious. Yeah. I mean, there's no escaping it. So I feel like I just keep saying the same thing over and over again.
No, but it's like fast. It's like every time I'm like, oh my God, this is when there was one time. There have been a few things. I'll talk about social media next week, but social media has tried to change their policies or ad fact checking whenever like misinformation was spread. And Kuhnen just saw that as a good thing and not because, like, they were being fact checked, but because it meant that they were doing something right, that they had scared Facebook into not having additional fake, which is probably the enemy of like.
Yeah. Media. Yeah, yeah.
And also that's a credible source to some people, whatever. But it's like it's a credible source because it's not a credible source I guess like it. But so to them they saw that as a win because even though they were being attacked, they were because they were being censored and the media was trying to reroute people's attention or distract them with this information, it was because the information that they were onto was so right that even the media is starting to feel rattled.
And every challenge to their logic is just affirmation that they found the real truth. And they just don't want you to pay attention to it, which, by the way, leads to things like wearing masks, like when all of those people out there who are anti maskers and they scream fake news, that you what they're saying is when you are wearing a mask, you're listening to the media tell you to wear a mask, which means you're you're listening to the media and you're blind to reality and you're enabling the deep state, which is the people wrangling all of this human sex trafficking.
Oh, my. Bad.
So that's when I in my head before all the studying, though, I'd be like, how is screaming fake news actually even logical? And then after hearing all that, it's like, I understand your process, your thought process twisted. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
So when Kuhnen also implies that news sources are basically the devil because they're part of Hollywood and you know, news sources are part of mass media and the sex ring, I mean, it's just it's wild. So people and Kuhnen go against credible sources, a.k.a. fake news, because those are the sources working with Hollywood to hide the truth. You can trust you can't trust the fake news if if they're just trying to distract you from the real issues. And one of my favorite quotes is from that vice documentary I mentioned, one of the documentarians said, quote, All these people are acting like this is a grassroots movement, but it's some 4chan guy who just put ideas in their head.
So I love that because it's like all these people think that they really have just grown into this thing where they're a massive force to be reckoned with, which sadly they are becoming. But it's all because potentially some guy in his basement got taken too seriously one time. So basically, when these people are challenged, they it's easier to you've talked about this before on with cults, but which is why another reason I think this is a cult personally, and that is not anyone else's opinion.
But when they're challenged on their beliefs, it's so much easier to fill gaps in your current belief system than to realize that your belief system has gaps.
Hmm. And so the more you're able to rationalize your own thoughts basically means that you're looking for random fucking information to fill in the holes just so you can keep thinking the way you do, which means you're just falling deeper and deeper into a conspiracy, especially as a movement that tells you to do your own research because of something. Just if someone challenges you and you have to think about it because something actually is a crack of doubt, it just means it's it's their way of saying like, oh, that's not a crack of doubt.
That's not a hole in the system. That's not a gap. And you're thinking you just haven't done enough research yet to justify it for when people challenge you.
So even in other belief systems or. Maybe this is the same in all culture, whatever, or conspiracy theories, but it's just another way of doubling down. We're like finally there's like a shed of light of realization that something could be wrong. But this group specifically is telling you to do research, to make it make sense and make that make that Dalkia and that research exists. So and it exists somewhere. Maybe it doesn't. It maybe it's like the shadiest weirdest YouTube video you've ever seen, but if it patches up that whole ride with it.
Yeah, so and once you've justified your beliefs, however you do it, your belief is reinforced and you're in the know and everyone else are just sheeple because they haven't done the research as intensely as you have one poster on the AMA that an Kuhnen person did. Another person wrote in the comments saying, gee, I guess he was also an execution person, by the way, because the way he's talking about it, he says, quote, The idea behind the research is that you are more likely to believe a source that you stumble upon versus if I tell you to watch this video.
Right, if I tell you that Hillary is a lizard person, watch this video. It's easy to dismiss me as crazy. But if I tell you I think Hillary's a lizard person, but don't take my word for it. And you come across hundreds of videos and articles about how Hillary is a lizard person. It makes it all more believable, especially since there are so many articles now of Hillary not being a person. Because because if it wasn't true, why would people make videos and articles having to debate?
Yikes. Yeah. So it's almost like a reverse reinforcement of like if people are arguing the opposite, that means something. There's they're arguing against something. Right, exactly. Yeah. Oh my God. That's horrible. So to boost their own ego and keep them feeling empowered, conspiracy theories basically make, quote, followers think that they're thinking more critically when they're actually thinking less critically. And that's what I've got today, literally like two fucking hours in.
And I'm so sorry.
So I got today. Wow. I just want you to tell me more.
Well, I have the categories already for next week's notes and there and I quote because they're from my own document, by the way, called I Want to fucking Die because. Oh no. Because I was trying to wrap my brain and read like literally one hundred pages of notes to get through this. But the topics are how did this mega conspiracy theory spread so damn fast? Political consequences ways it's like a cult and how to help someone get out.
So if you're say Glaze, it's like a cult for four hundred. It sounds like Jeopardy categories.
If you would like to hear any of those things about Q and on, please tune in next week for the final section, which will be shorter. By the way, this was the longer a bit of that, so.
Oh my God, it's so creepy. I mean, I have the weirdest dreams tonight. I appreciate everyone hanging in there. But it's just this. Usually I would try to trim things for the sake of not having such a long episode. But this is something that I think a lot of people that listen to our show don't realize how many people that listen to our show are being personally affected. But I can tell you, especially after last week's episode, I already thought that some people might be hurt because during T time Tuesday, a lot of people say that they're dealing with Kuhnen parents right now.
And then after the last episode came out, so many more people than I even suspected are saying that they they needed this. So hopefully I did it some justice and I didn't offend anybody or anything. But a lot of people really need to hear this information to help maybe save the OR if they feel like they're responsible for it, saving people and their world.
So thank you to everyone who is sticking with it.
And even if you're not attached to this world at all, at least you're being educated because maybe someone in your life might hear about this kind of stuff and you can stop it in advance now. So sure.
Yeah, maybe like they'll approach you with something similar, just, you'll know, spreading the good news or really the bad news so that you can keep it from becoming worse news, you know.
Yeah. And the I get it.
And holy no, I'm scared now I have to go pee, but I'm scared to leave. Please.
I'm so sorry Christine. I was so long. I got silly.
That's this is like one of my favorite topics you've ever covered. I mean, honestly, it felt like we had a sleepover. I was like, what is it?
So welcome to finally Christine's portion, where I still monopolize the conversation for a second. I wanted to I wanted to show you something for people watching the YouTube. You'll appreciate this.
What's the YouTube video? Oh, Boomer, OK, if you if you're watching YouTube, you get to see it with your own eyes. But I wanted to show you my the gift my stepsister got me for Christmas finally came in and I just could not be more in love with it. It's just so fucking wild. Schaffer's fish. I don't know. It's a shirt, it's a T-shirt, but I just want to show you it because it like gets me every time.
It's so fucking random in wild.
Is that it's for those of you who can't tell, it looks like a like an occult sacrifice. It is. It's it's like it looks like an upside down pentacle with, like, Baphomet skull in it and it's on fire and it's a Celine Dion. My heart will go on and it looks like the skull is eating a heart. Earthlike has a literal organ. What the fuck?
I, I just love it so much I can't wait to hear it.
And so I just you know, I almost called you Renee, which should tell you how I feel. I was like, what the fuck? What the fuck is your name. Oh my God. My name is Celine Dion, bitch. Well, my other friend, I almost said was silly. And I was like, this sounds like something you they would. This is why this is next emotion.
When I wear the shirt, I will only go by Celine Dion and oh my God, look at that bloody thought. It makes me so happy and so baby baby steps and little rewards and treat yourself. But after reporting on Keywood on my present to myself as I was going to take a nice hot shower after this episode and I'm going to put on my Celine Dion shirts, I'm very excited about it.
I totally approve. And you deserve that. And I hope you don't have to do any work tonight.
I'm going to have to listen to this episode again tomorrow, but I will drink enough tonight that I forget and then I'll listen again and it'll be all need to be honest, I'm so paranoid about how I just covered Kuhnen that I'm probably after this going to go back and listen to the garage band.
I'll just to make sure that I do want to edit it while you're doing it. While you're there.
Well, I'm no, I think you did a great job and I think everyone's going to back me up on that. And that's not just me saying that.
I mean, I would say that no matter what, obviously.
But I I'm being very sincere. Appreciate I'm not lying because if I like I told em before the the break ended, quote unquote.
But if I'm drinking and I followed it like you were doing something really well, like I said earlier, it's just I, I very rarely I don't think ever have talked about anything as serious as anti-Semitism as my topic when usually it's like Jeff, the talking mongoose. So I just I just extra paranoid because I'm out of my comfort zone and wanting to much more problematic. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So and sensitive and touchy. Exactly.
On that note, I want to hear it badly.
Just just another just another topic for my end of the war.
Sadly, yes, ma'am. This is actually probably one, you know.
Oh well this is the story of Kitty Genovese, you know.
Nope. OK, you will. Oh OK. I'm like ninety nine percent sure you will. You'll see.
Why is a virgin or something. No. Oh, OK. Go ahead. I want to know.
OK, I'm going to tell you. So OK, we're going to start with the story and then lead in to like the bigger picture here.
So OK, the story begins 1964, March 13th, two thirty a.m. Catherine. Susan Genovese, otherwise known as Kitty, who's a bar manager, left her bar EV's eleventh hour on Jamaica Avenue and one hundred ninety Third Street in Hollis, Queens. She drove home in her red Fiat and while waiting at a traffic light on Hoover Avenue, she happened to be spotted by a man named Winston Moseley, who was sitting nearby in his parked car.
OK, Kitty arrived home around three a.m., parked her car in the railroad station parking lot about 100 feet from her apartment door, which she could access via an alleyway at the rear of the building. And as she walked toward the apartment complex, Moseley, who had followed her home after spotting her, got out of his car, which he had parked at a corner bus stop and quickly caught up with her.
He was armed with a hunting knife.
Oh, OK. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Seeing a man chasing after her with a knife. Obviously, Kitty ran toward her door as quickly as she could, but unfortunately, Mosley overtook her, stabbed her twice in the back.
According to some neighbor. She screamed, Oh, my God, he stabbed me.
Help me. It was only when one of the neighbors, Robert Mozer, shouted, Let that girl alone and that Mosley ran away. And Kitty slowly made her way toward the rear entrance of the building, which was out of sight from anybody who was watching or witnessing this.
Wow. She at this point was seriously injured and in a critical position. However, OK, let me say this next line first. According to witnesses, Mosley got into his car and drove away. However, it gets worse.
That's where I insert that famous Christine line question. So this you just stopped stabbing her when someone said leave her alone. That was a little fucking tuck, huh?
And also did leave her alone, guy, go check out her. So he just like, go sit back in his fucking Barcalounger. It was like, anyway, back to my tunes.
Well, you're hit then. You're hitting the story. Right, right on the OK, OK. Ahead. I don't know. That's English isn't my first language. You'll figure it out. It's. No it isn't. Thank you for agreeing. So set it up. So he drove away.
But then ten minutes later. He came back OK? Yeah, he was hiding his face with a wide brimmed hat. OK, that'll change things up. OK, now I don't recognize you at all. Yes.
I don't vividly remember the trauma of 10 minutes ago when your face stabbed me, got your dumdum face, showed up yet, but now there's a hat over it.
So he hit his face from with a wide brimmed hat, began searching the parking lot, train station and an apartment complex where he eventually found Kitty. This is horrifying. She was barely conscious and lying in a hallway at the back of the building where a locked door had prevented her from getting inside.
So he then stabbed him several more times. Then he sexually assaulted her and stole forty nine dollars from her wallet and ran away again.
So he came back to the scene to find her and quote unquote, finish the job.
First of all, can you imagine being no one should bercu imagine being Keddie and thinking it's finally done and you got to look inside it, you made it, you're done. It's there in your own building, like it's really next level horror stuff.
And imagine like I don't even know how to get into the mind of that guy, but for him to think like that wasn't enough. I needed that. Forty nine fucking dollars. Right. To drive away and come back.
He's like so and risk that after people saw you like usually it would be so like adrenaline running.
And I would imagine that like the last thing you can do is, I mean you're like to me fight or flight and you're like gone. You're already it's you escaped it without getting caught like you already did.
Yes. Yeah, exactly. Why would you come back? Yeah, exactly.
It's shocking. So a neighbor and close friend named Sophia found Kitty shortly after and held her in her arms. The first call to police came in around 3:00 a.m. and they showed up shortly, showed up shortly after that.
They then called for an ambulance who picked her up at 415 a.m. But tragically, she died on the way to the hospital and she was buried on March 16th, 1964, in Lakeview Cemetery in New Haven, Connecticut, near her family.
And only six days after killing, not only six days after killing, Kitty Moseley was arrested during a house burglary he was committing.
And at the time of his arrest, get this, he was a pillar of the community. He had been working a steady job, had no criminal record, and was married with two children. So just not your average criminal on the street, except according to.
And that's why you drink. Definitely your most criminal example is criminal average criminal.
So from Pillar to Killer Collodi Killer, starring in Christine, from interviews with him, it seemed like his killing was completely random, which almost makes us more fucked up. He later said he had simply, quote, wanted to kill a woman.
Oh, that. Yeah. Uh huh. The fact that it's so simple makes it so much worse, doesn't it? It's like it's like because you don't even need a you don't even need like a psychologist to do a whole history background. It's just like, oh, matter of fact, I just wanted to do it. It's like senseless.
It's like there's not even logic or anything. It's just random.
It's I think that I think is as what I consider like typical human beings in terms of empathy. Yeah. And like having emotion and not wanting to kill anybody. I feel like we cling to wanting an explanation. Yes. When someone doesn't give it to you, it's just like extra fucking difficult to process because it's so so not the natural way. Don't get it.
It's like that Israel Keyes story where he just casually flew around the country and picked a couple. Doesn't matter what. Yeah. Doesn't matter what city they live in, what gender, what race. None of it matters. It was just like random, which is so much scarier. It's so much bigger.
And also like you think like you never want to compare crimes or like compare like victims or anything like that. But you always you always hope that like if something like that were to happen, it's because it reminded the killer of someone. And there was like an emotional there's like a like a generation or something, a narrative think, you know.
But but yeah. But for it's for to be a senseless act is just always so much fucking worse in some way. It is. It's like weirdly at least in one way, it's in one way at least it's very difficult to swallow.
So that's exactly what it was. It was just so fucking random.
He's like, I just wanted to kill a woman. He told police he left his sleeping wife at home and drove around looking for a victim, finally spotted Kitty in her car, followed her home to a parking lot.
And despite pleading not guilty by reason of insanity, Moseley was found guilty and sentenced to death with the judge, Erwin Shapiro, commenting, I don't believe in capital punishment.
But when I see a monster like this, I wouldn't hesitate to pull the switch myself, which that's not quite right in my head. I'm like, you don't believe in the death penalty unless you're emotionally invested. That's not quite. Well, that works in my mind. Right. So I'm going to call bullshit on that one. But that's besides the point.
So he was sentenced to death.
However, his initial death sentence was reduced to lifetime imprisonment, to which two additional fifteen year sentences. Were laid on top for crimes he committed when he escaped from custody on March 18th, 1968. Yes, that's right. He escaped.
So Mosley had made a getaway when he was being taken back to prison from a Buffalo hospital.
He hit a corrections officer, took the man's weapon before fleeing to a nearby vacant house. And when the couple who owned the house checked on their house a few days later, he bound and gagged them and raped the wife, then stole their car, fled to another house where he took a woman and her daughter hostage, left them unharmed after holding them captive for two hours and then surrendered to police shortly thereafter.
So lots of the don't know the psychology behind that thought process of like all of those emotions. You know, it's so wild.
It's like it wasn't even like he was trying to get away necessarily. It was like he was trying to get away, but also inflict the most damage while he did it.
It was just like the most chaotic escape. Yeah. And like, come up. Gee, sorry, he's being needy. I think he has to go potty.
I mean, it's been good to me. And take a break now. That's OK. It's like eight degrees out, so I'll just do it afterward. It's eight degrees. I'm too fucking it is too fucking cold for me to take him out now and after. And he doesn't have a yard anymore. Right. Or he. No.
Oh no. He lives a very tough life. Oh he's so short.
Thirty three sweetheart. To book a happy little nose. It's so hard to be.
Gee I wish he could hear you but he can't do. I wish you could hear you as high pitched enough that he gets it. No, I break my ears, though it's probably for the best. He can't hear me because I probably get him riled up or he would rile him up. Yeah. Does he still know my voice?
Oh, no, he forgot. Well, because when we when we face time, he seems unbothered and that's what he does. He's like it's like I thought we got away from you.
Yeah. That's his normal attitude problem. Don't worry.
So sweet. The little top of his head is so good. He's going to bother me for the next hour.
So anyway, he escaped in a very chaotic fashion. Then he was taken back to prison and in the days immediately following.
OK, sorry he was saying that, but and in the days immediately following the murder of Kitty, the story didn't get much coverage. It was only until NYPD Commissioner Michael J. Murphy took a New York Times editor and Rosenthal for lunch, where Murphy told Rosenthal that that Queens story is one for the books.
And that's when the Times launched a full investigative report which culminated in an article.
Maybe this is where you'll figure this out, published on March 27 called 38 Who Saw Murder Didn't Call the police.
Sound familiar? Oh, no.
OK, all right. Is this like the Grinch or are you on something and you're waiting for me to, like, finally catch it?
Who do you start thinking of? No, I don't know what this is. OK, well, I feel I feel better now. I feel bad because I'm like putting you on the spot over and over again.
I'm sure a lot of people are like, how the fuck do you know? Probably not.
I just thought you would specifically. You'll see why. OK, OK.
So as later referenced in June 1988 by author Harlan Ellison in a an article for the magazine of fantasy and science fiction, quote, The murder was witnessed by 38 neighbors, not one of whom made the slightest effort to save her to scream at the killer or even to call the police.
So we know that's not technically true.
Based on the above is there were 38 comes from to all the all the witnesses. Yeah.
So the New York Times article, the headline was 38 Who Saw Murder, didn't call the police and said, OK, got it.
Later it was referenced in other magazines, other articles.
And this author or this journalist cited reports he claimed to have read that one man, quote, viewing the murder from his third floor apartment window, stated later that he rushed up to turn his radio so he wouldn't hear turn up his radio so he wouldn't hear the woman screams, OK.
However, in police reports, I will say one witness said his father did call the police after the initial attack and told the police there was a woman being beat up, but then she got up and was staggering around.
And additionally, a few minutes after the final attack, another witness named Carl Ross called to friends for advice on what to do, which is like a fun little detour you took.
OK, called two friends to ask what to do, the second of whom called a third friend who eventually called the police who arrived at the scene.
That is not how you handle an emergency that so many phone calls there. OK, so in my apartment, obviously there's like a crisis every goddamn down, but we've called the police a lot. And our at our end, like, luckily nothing's ever like been happening to us. But we just happened to be in a weird pocket of Burbank. We're like we've had a lot of people in the streets at different times saying, call the police, call the police.
And it's like, I don't even know what the situations are. I don't know if they're Fites. I don't know what what's happening. But I've had to call the police a lot. And in the sense of urgency that you get when you hear someone saying, call the police, you don't have time to call one person and then wait for it to fucking ring forever. And then I hang up and then you call a second person and then they're like, hang on, let me call my buddy.
You don't have that, like, the wildest chain of events.
It's like so the first one was like, I don't know, I got to go. It's like, get the fuck.
I was like, yeah, OK. So I'm already kind of lost here, but I'm OK.
I've only ever called 911 for ambulance. There were so many ambulances, an ambulance, so no call for an ambulance.
It happened in L.A. constantly at the Los Feliz apartment. I called four separate times for, like, really, really terrible car accident.
Yes. Oh, I remember that lady. That old lady, not the one across the street who flipped the car.
The old lady who got hit by it. She got hit by a car and flew like fuckin 30 yards. And I had to stand there and measure it for, like paramedics. It was horrifying anyway.
Well, what about the one where, like the like, almost like ran through a window? Yeah, they ran they these two drunk girls drove into a bunch of trash cans, hit the curb, flipped their car upside down. I called nine on one blaze, ran outside and like pulled them out of the car upside down. And when he pulled them out, the one girl kept going, we can I go back and get my iPhone?
And he was like, oh, fucking sit down.
Like, you just got pulled out of a wrecked car upside down and you're wasted, like, sit down. It was horrible. At least he's like he knows what he's doing. Yeah, I know he was like, just fucking see that he's like I drove an ambulance for thank God he didn't drive an ambulance in L.A., but he drove an ambulance for years in Cincinnati. That was its own drama.
Anyway, so sorry. No, no.
Oh, we're at a different angle here. You know, you're cuter. No, but my point was, I as someone who has sent the urgent cry of need to call the police, like to hear that this guy was like, what do I do? And like, took probably 10 minutes out of like, you don't have ten minutes. You don't have time. Yeah. So again, you're right. You're right on track here.
So let's see.
It was actually later discovered, in fact, that through follow up investigations that the March 27 article in The New York Times was not wholly correct and not wholly fair to the extent that the number 38 had been like completely hyperbolize and some facts have been completely made up, just like sensationalized journalism, quote unquote, journalism.
OK, like I said, two people did call the police. Several of the witnesses interviewed claimed they didn't realize the screams were cries for help. Some people thought they just heard yelling and thought she was in an argument. They weren't sure from their apartment what they were hearing.
Not that it doesn't, you know, necessarily excuse it fully, but like it actually it explains it a little bit like I didn't know she was being stabbed to death or I would have called the police.
I thought she was having an argument with her boyfriend or something.
Right. So in 2016, I've actually talked about this in the Lululemon murder episode, The New York Times itself called its own reporting flawed. So they came back in 2016 and we're like, hey, we have to correct ourselves and say, like, that was bad journalism, stating that the original story grossly exaggerated the number of witnesses and what they had perceived. In actuality, only a few people physically saw Kitty Genovese and her attacker.
The others just heard her screams. Not great, but, you know, still not correct in the article.
And Kitty's brother, William, later created a movie called The Witness that delves into this. And I will tell you why this is so important, like why this is B, been addressed so much. So this obviously opens like a whole ethical can of worms.
It opens like, can you blame the neighbors who didn't call police even if they knew she was like, who's at blame here? It like opens up a whole can of worms if, like, obviously the guy who stabbed the woman is guilty. But then it's like, what about the people who heard her screaming and didn't do anything?
The responsibility of like. Right. Because they're I mean, there's so many. What was that? I feel like everyone learned in, like, psych one on one in college, but like if something were to ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
Hello. Oh, that's the story. Oh it's a Kitty Genovese is. Yeah, yeah. Now I it OK. I think you're going to connect the dots at some point. I got it. Well yeah. Because like what I want baby you always learn that, like if you don't point at someone and say do this or like if someone isn't like if you're not assigned a task everyone's going to like wait around for someone else to do it and then nobody does.
Yeah. It's like a diffusion of responsibility, exert diffusion of responsibility.
I don't know if that's correct. That's kind of a word I just made up. But we'll get to the real words that are actually psych words that I'm not making up shortly when I stumble upon the correct bullet.
This is so fun. I mean, this is terrible, but like, OK, I'm on. I'm glad I'm glad you get it out. I'm like, yeah, where are we going to hook you.
OK, so you should have just said I think it is diffusion of responsibility is like the the the coined term of like I think it's a little bit hard but it starts with a D..
I know it starts with the D.
OK, we'll get to it. No, no, no, no. It's the bystander effect bystander. OK, I think diffusion or distribution of responsibility is part of that may be is part of it anyway.
That would make sense. So anyway that it obviously ethical can of worms.
That's why I got you. I said ethical can of worms and then diffusion of response. We got there. We got there. We got there.
So although what happened to Kitty obviously was a fucking tragedy, the shock of what happened to her shook not only the people of New York and honestly the whole world to do some introspection.
So one thing I want to point out, which kind of gets at what you were saying earlier, is there was no 9/11 one back then. You couldn't just call. No.
Right. OK, you know what I mean.
OK, so that adds a whole layer of like, well, if it's way more complicated to get emergency services, like, does that add anything to it? Or, you know, like if you don't know how to reach the police or how.
So you really just let me fly through that tangent. No, no. It's because it's a good but it's a good point because that's where people argue of like, well, they should have taken the time to find the police. No, but maybe that's what that guy was doing, calling his friend, saying what's the number of OK, who knows? You don't know.
But they could also have called the operator and asked for police. So it's like it's very up in the air and that's why.
So there was no 911 emergency calling. And actually this case became the catalyst to creating an emergency response system. In the United States. Wow. Yeah, so that's when they were like crap like we need a phone number to call because all these people are like, we need a hotline.
I'm just going to. Yeah, we just I'm just going to turn out my radio, I guess, like, you know, there needs to be a number to call.
So isn't that so wild that at one point there was like a like a mindset of like, well, there's nothing I can do. I might as well ignore the trauma of.
Yeah, well, and if you think it's like the city, like in New York and like so much shit goes down every day, it's like you hear screaming. It's not necessarily like. Right. The only time you've heard someone screaming in the streets of New York. Right. Right. Again, not that that makes it right, but it's just like maybe that's something you're more you say might have been just part of the culture of like you hear a loud noise and you ignore it and like it.
Maybe it didn't even register as a scream at first, you know, or if you like, a lot of them said they thought she was in an argument or they didn't realize it was cries for help.
So it gets very iffy, very gray area. So up until the 60s, there was no centralized no for people to call in case of an emergency. If you did need to call the police or the fire department, you would call the nearest station by number. Like you can still call their phone number. Yeah.
Or you had to call people who are than us are like, yeah, yeah. Wow. Or you had to call zero to reach an operator and say, I need this.
The local police, which again is a whole nother step added to this process. Right. And so it took three years after her murder, before the U.S. took steps to create nine on one.
But President Lyndon Johnson's Commission on Law Enforcement and Administration of Justice, they love those long names, issued a report recommending that citizens have the ability to contact police departments using one single telephone number, and that's when it all kind of began. So AT&T in 1968, which at the time nearly operated nearly all telephone connections in the U.S., decided to establish a nine one one line. So that was in 1968. Now, I mean, what was going to ask you a trivia question?
I was going to ask you a trivia question. I was going to ask you, you know, why they picked nine. I was literally going to ask, why did I know? I guess because I knew you were going to ask me and I wrote.
Yes, well, it's my first that was I was thinking of rotary phones, but nine is so fucking far away, like, is it nine or one? One was the one. That's what's the one that's.
No, no, no.
Nine or zero is the father last night I would think like but it only takes like point five seconds if someone's in your house though.
That trip from nine all the way, that's, that's a long distance.
We talked about this once and somebody literally DM me and said there was a case of a woman who died while dialing on her rotary number for nine.
You would think like one on one would be the one would, but that's way too close to accidentally.
But in my opinion, is that why they did it then?
Because like nine was like an intentional one versus two quick ones. I don't know why.
So here we go. They wanted a number that was short, easy to remember. So, OK, unique and no had never been used as an area code before or any sort of code before any phone number. So it was a completely unique, brand new. And so it could be taken as like totally separate. I mean, I'm not saying one one one wasn't. I don't know. But I feel like one one one is a lot easier to like accidentally in my mind.
But Dayal, which I'm sure you didn't but dial on a rotary phone because that would require a lot of effort, a lot of a lot of talking on your cell and.
Yeah, yeah, it would be a lot of really delicate but movements which I don't have the ability to do.
But in my mind, one one one seems I mean, isn't that what is it in now?
I'm going to look like a real idiot, OK? Right. I'm not going to go there.
Oh well no, that's interesting. Imagine being the person who had to go. They comb through every goddamn area code to find the difference and everything else. I know.
And it's so taken for granted, like nine on one, you know, like you don't ever think about it.
They really it really was not ergonomically friendly, though, in terms of how far that nine is on the road. Yeah. Because they really weren't taking into account like the you have a split fucking set.
Yeah, I do like your your notion though that it's it's intentional though. It's not like maybe I don't know, like the last two are real quick but the first one you have to do I don't know, I don't, I don't know.
But it was mostly because it was easy to remember short and wasn't used in any other context before. Interesting. Yeah. So anyway, where am I. Fun fact.
And what ain't AT&T. OK, cool. Yeah.
And they figured I mean to be fair though, if you're using a rotary phone back then you were dialing seven numbers, so nine one one is still a lot shorter than dialing the local police station.
Do you know what I mean? I wonder why they didn't just do two numbers. Like what was the three about? You know, I don't think anything's two numbers, is it?
Well, it was anything before the operator zero was I think before that three numbers like, well, I know the operator is zero, so I don't know. You would think if zero is the operator, then like nine could have just been the police.
And like that was like, I wonder why like nine on one is much more unique.
Because if you're like nine one, that could be like nine months ago or like, I don't know anyway, 9/11 is just its own unique combination that you can't really we're really I'm like still in, like, Kuhnen mindset where I'm trying to find every goddamn thing anyway.
It doesn't continue. That's very interesting. I did not know that it's short.
No, easy. Remember the Orianna so fun fact. February 16th, 1968 was the first nine one one call ever made. Oh, I know. This is where it gets real fun. It was made out of Hayle Ville, Alabama. The town is extremely proud of this. Apparently it was a ceremonial call between two Alabama politicians. But nonetheless, each year since the city celebrates with the Harleysville 9/11 one festival, which features live music and lots of food.
So you imagine being a cop in that town, being like this festival is about me, like, yeah.
Or the dispatch, like finally my phone number gets the record. This is my moment. Yeah. So that either way is said by Kevin Cook, who wrote a book about Kitty Genovese called Kitty Genovese The Murder, The Bystanders, The Crime That Changed America, quote, The nine one one system grows more or less directly from the outcry from Kitty Genovese, his death.
So Kitty Genovese also inspired the creation of a neighborhood watch program and other reforms, including crime, victim compensation, sex offender registries and laws that allow victims families to speak during the penalty phase and felony trials, according to COOK.
And there are cases that I've covered that more, I would say more directly led to the sex offender registry, for example.
But this case was definitely like a starting point. Pivotal.
Pivotal, yes, pivotal. Great word.
So the murder of Kittie also piqued the interest of quite a few psychologists, as mentioned above, although it wasn't quite 38 people who could have prevented her murder.
Kitty's girlfriend at the time, Maryann's Elanco, reflected in a 20 I'm sorry, 2004 interview saying I still have a lot of anger toward people because they could have saved her life. I mean, all the steps along the way when he attacked her three times and then he sexually assaulted her, too, when she was dying. I mean, you look out the window, see this happening, and you don't help. That's how do you live with yourself knowing you didn't do anything?
Yeah. So now this is where you start wondering, like, well, why didn't people intervene?
Like, if they're seeing this, why didn't they do something? And of course, there's like the issue of like, well, you don't want to put yourself in danger, but there's, I think more to it.
Like you were saying, that the murder of Kitty Genovese sparked this insight into the the what they call now the bystander effect.
And it's it's this it got people thinking, like, how did this happen that so many people, they can't all just be vicious assholes.
Like, there has to be some reason that this group of people. Yeah, presumably from all different walks of life and different, you know, families or whatever, all kind of sat around and didn't do any.
Yeah. Isn't just like the assumption that someone else will. That's a big part of it though. It's like that why shouldn't be responsible.
Someone else is going to be responsible and it's someone else. Someone else might be more expensive. Yes, exactly. Like if there was a I would I mean it's like a now it's like a thing like it's understood. So I don't feel stupid or bad about saying this, but if I saw a car accident and like, I don't know if I would react properly, like, first of all, there's a fight or flight and I'm definitely flight. But I mean, if I were amongst a group, I'd be like someone else might be blase, like a doctor or like, well, not a doctor, but, you know, like in medical training, who is better equipped for this or someone might be, you know, I'm not the person meant for this task.
But then I figure if everyone's thinking that exactly.
Is the person. Yeah, yeah. Because Blades could be thinking, well, there might be a surgeon who could, you know or whatever or was wasn't there.
I really keep going on to opportunities here, but I when I we first started becoming friends, didn't always do some sort of like weird like physical medical training where they like taught you how to respond quickly to shit like this.
And there was like, oh gosh, I don't remember. I feel like I remember him going like on a like doing some sort of retreat or something when he was solid.
I can ask him probably that sounds like something he would sign up for, but I definitely don't remember because then also I feel like it was something to prevent things like this where it was like it trained him early to like if something happens, respond because nobody else will. Oh, OK. I'll ask him.
I don't know. Anyway, sorry I should remember but I don't. I'll ask him later but I did it up so let's see.
So that author Kevin Cook was quoted saying on one hand, the crime stirred something primal. The terror of being alone in the dark when a predator strikes. But the story also captured a modern anxiety to the fear that you might have a thousand neighbors only to die alone while they stood by their windows watching would shivery.
And just like that, in years to come, psychology textbooks would begin to attach kiddie's name to concepts like pluralistic ignore. And the bystander effect terms used to describe how people can lose their moral compass in a group. So the term bystander effect refers to the phenomenon in which the greater the number of people present, the less likely people are to help a person in distress. So when an emergency situation occurs, observers are more likely to take action if there are few or no other witnesses.
But being a part of a large crowd makes it so no single person has to take responsibility. And I think a lot of that is subconscious, obviously, which is why it's studied so in depth. But it's not like, oh, well, I'm not responsible. It's more of like a oh, like you said, like, I'm sure someone else has got this handled and you don't even necessarily think about it consciously.
I also want to add that this is a somewhat controversial theory like I have heard.
I don't know whatever.
I will get taught anything different. But I was also taught a long time ago. So if there's anything we're old, if there's any opposition to it, I just don't know it.
I remember when we studied it, I don't know why, but our professor was like, here are the reasons against it.
And like told us, oh, so I remember hearing that. And I will say I do want to correct myself. I'll mention this later, probably, but I'll just say now that I want to correct myself in that little episode, I called it like a myth or something. And like that was not the right terminology.
It's kind of it's been debunked that this that her case was as extreme of an example for the reasons I said people did call the police. There was no easy way to call the police. People thought she was having an argument. Obviously, somebody could have helped. So I'm sure that's beside the point.
But it wasn't as hyperbolic and extreme as the original New York Times article said of 38 people just stood there and watched her get stabbed to death, especially because the crime happened in two locations.
One was outside, one was in such a while because the story of the bystander effect that I was taught literally in college and in an education institution was that this must have been for like a flare effect or something. But was that someone in the middle of like a busy street got stabbed to death and everyone just watched it fucking happen?
Like, yeah, that's what this story was like. That's what the story was presented by The New York Times is like 38 witnesses on this New York City street. Yeah. Turned up their radio and ignored it. And it wasn't quite that extreme. But that is which is why I miss quoted it or mislabeled it as a myth.
That's not the right word. So I was wrong in that instance. But it is there is definitely some controversy surrounding like the legitimacy of the original story, which The New York Times even said, like, no, we did terrible journalism.
But obviously this is a very I think, a real effect that takes place. And some people do argue against that as well. But whatever, we're going to go with it.
So anyway, so the notion of the bystander effect and why we continue to look away in the face of danger remains a very real phenomenon that still occurs to this day. Like you were saying, it was first addressed because of what happened to Kitty. Ten days later, after Kitty's murder, psychologist John Dahli had lunch with another psychologist, Beb La Latani, and they discussed the incident, saying the newspaper explanations were focusing on the appalling personalities of those who saw the murder but didn't intervene, saying they had been dehumanized by living in an urban environment.
We wanted to see if we could explain the incident by drawing on the social, say, psychological principles that we knew. So instead of being like these are just asshole urban folks who just don't care about a young woman, it's like there's more to it than that. And it's a human instinct rather than like it's just these thirty eight assholes.
So Dahli and Latinate published a series of papers in 1969 looking at what would later be known more famously as the bystander effect, sometimes known as the kiddie effect, which is also learned that they wanted to show why the witnesses to Kitty's murder behaved with, quote, apathy, whether they could quantify a minimum number of people present to create that kind of like indecision. So like, is it when there's five people? Is it when there's twenty people that, like you lose that instinct to respond?
So they figure it out?
They did these?
Yes, they did like very specific experiments, which are so interesting and like, I love this shit. So in 1968, they asked participants to sit on their own, like just by themselves in a room and complete a questionnaire on the pressures of urban life. But in reality, what they were going to do is pump smoke. But it was actually steam, but it looked like smoke was coming through a small vent in the wall into the room. So they were sitting in a room alone and smoke, quote unquote, started filling the room within two minutes.
Fifty percent of people who were in the room alone had taken action and 75 percent acted within six minutes. How so?
That was pretty quick, but in groups of three participants. So if you're in a room with two other people, 62 percent carried on working for the entire experiment without saying, oh, OK, so why I know.
Isn't that wild? You're so affected by other people, which makes sense. And I'm sure I've been in that boat a million times where you're like, well, no one else is. Freaking out, right? No, truly, I guess it's fine. You don't want to be that guy. You don't want to be the paranoid one. Yeah, one of my favorite story or psychology studies was where they did different lengths of the lines. Have you seen that?
It's they had like different length lines on a poster or something, and they had a group of people and.
Oh, yes, yes. I know what you're talking about. There was only one who was not a plant. Got it.
Like they were to part they they asked people like, are these lines the same or different as I were talking about?
Yeah. It was like which ones longer or something or. Yeah, it was something like that. Like a very basic obvious question. But there was only one person in the room who was actually a study participant. Everybody else was like a plant I guess. And they think if I'm remembering correctly and everybody in the room said, oh, like the top ones.
Schauder when obviously it wasn't. And so they studied this in almost every single study participant agreed with the rest of the group, even if it was obviously the wrong answer, which is just so fascinating to me. It's like you don't want to just say the opposite because you're like, maybe I'm missing something really.
Like it's got to be just like a such a not like a human instinct, like a fear of rejection or like being like not part of part of the group. Yeah. I mean, I, I imagine like primitively like we're supposed to be part of the pack. Right.
So I go, you're not going to disagree and like be right. The outcast. Exactly. Exactly. I think that's so fascinating. So same idea. In interviews afterward, participants reported feeling hesitant about showing anxiety. So they look to others for signs of anxiety. But since everyone was trying to appear calm, the signs were not evident. So they misinterpreted the situation. They thought they were misinterpreting the situation and redefined it as safe because they were like, no one else is freaking out.
It's just like it's just literally a room of anyone today. I just like a bunch of anxiety ridden people. I'll be like, this is fine.
Like, I'm fine. I got this handled. And it's like, does anyone else feel this way? No. Yeah, completely.
It's like on Instagram when you're like everyone else has their shit together. No, no. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
So a few years later, darling, we're in a study with a psychologist, Daniel Batson, that saw a student. This is horrifying. I, I also remember this one. So it had students at Princeton walk across campus to give a talk that they were scheduled to do so. Along the way, the students would pass a person slumped over and groaning in a passageway. This was an actor used for the study. The experience was conducted and it seemed there was only one factor that influenced whether someone stopped to help the person.
Do you have a guess as to what effect it was?
Is it something really horrible like they have like money hanging out of their pocket or something?
Like they were late for their presentation presentations. If they were running late, they wouldn't stop. If they were on time, they were much more likely to stop saying, right, isn't that wild?
So only ten percent of students stopped when they were in a hurry. More than six times as many helped to stop when they had enough time to get to their tall.
I guess that means I'm a raging, consistent rebel with everything. So I guess I would help zero people just like blinders on.
You know, that reminds me of remember a while ago at this point, maybe it's got of been over a year ago, Alison and I were watching that show the Stan Lee, who wants to be a superhero or Stanley Prison experiment.
Well, you know Stan Lee from Marvel. Oh, Stan Lee ever. He made the TV show, who wants to be a superhero or do you wanna be a superhero or something?
We talk you with kids. Yeah, yeah. The last season was with kids and they were like adults, but it was way ahead of its time. If it existed when like the Marvel Cinematic Universe was a thing, this would be like fucking the newest American Idol. But it was way early on and like, totally flopped. But that's part of what makes it hysterical is they would give people who, like, wanted to be a superhero like superhero tasks.
And one of them happened to be that there was like a little girl lost and crying. But that happened to be a plant in the middle of the environment where they were supposed to do a completely different task because so smart. So like the a true hero would have stopped and helped the little girl instead of, like, finish the race, that they they had no idea this little girl was a plant. They just thought they had a race through like a market square.
Well, it's like the same idea where they were like, you have to go give this presentation and you're running late for this presentation. That's the study. So, yeah, since it was a race, it was like you are already basically late because you have to beat someone else's. Exactly. And there was only like one or two people out of all of the superheroes in this race who stopped to help the little girl.
Exactly. So it's like when there's a sense of urgency about something else, it seems to just like completely blind, that instinct, which is fascinating.
So lateness in the presence of other people in this case are some of the factors that can apparently turn all of us into bystanders in an emergency.
So another important factor, which Warshak not, is the physical characteristics of the. Person needing help, which is awful, but true and not a surprise. So research has shown that people are more likely to help those they perceive to be similar to them, including others from their own racial or ethnic groups. You've probably seen a million videos like this demonstrating the element of the bystander effect, like there's one video where actors of different demographics and wearing certain clothes to denote wealth lie seemingly unconscious or in pain on the street and the production company times how long it takes for someone to intervene.
Spoiler alert, the public will check in on six men in a suit in the shortest amount of time. Not shocking, according to the audience.
Now, if I see a CIS man lying on the street, I'll be like the other 20 people can grab that. Someone else can handle this.
I have a girl to save from a fire. Right. I'm late, actually, to Christine's house to record. Right.
Side note, a side note. We will save someone if they're hurt. Yes. Like that's like being funny joke. Being facetious, I promise. Yes.
According to a mental health website called Very Well Mind Dotcom, which actually really like and recommend you check out, there are two major factors that contribute to the bystander effect. First, the presence of other people creates a diffusion of responsibility. OK, so I didn't make it up.
I read it and that's only part of it. I remembered this whole provision of responsibility.
It sounds so smart.
I was so proud of myself because there are other observers.
Individuals do not feel as much pressure to take action, the responsibility to act as thought to be shared among all of those present. The second reason is the need to behave and correct in socially acceptable ways, which I know I'm very guilty of, of the same idea of like, well, I don't want to be the one person who acts differently. And A, if everyone else says this is fine. So I'm definitely guilty of that. So when other observers fail to react, individuals often take this as a signal that a response is either not needed or not appropriate.
And it's very, I think, hard for some people, including myself, to override that feeling of, well, I don't want to be inappropriate socially and sure. Cause a scene. So I get specially especially if you're socialized.
Totally, totally. If you're if you are socialized as a female growing up, you're much more likely to try and fit the mold.
Yeah. To try and stay be under the calm, being calm, quiet, polite, don't disturb society.
Or in other words, it's not hysterical. Don't be hysterical. Don't don't get in the in the men's way. It's OK to stay quiet. Yeah.
So researchers have found that onlookers are less likely to intervene if the situation is ambiguous. So in the case of Kitty Genovese, like I said, many witnesses reported they believe they were witnessing a lover's quarrel, did not realize she was being murdered. Other psychologists, including Wareheim, Kruger, have gone on to prove how the bystander effect actually effects us on a day to day basis. So he says it's the volunteer dilemma. If there are seven billion people who could save the world, why should it be me?
So it's like you're about to should I wash out this bottle and recycle it? Well, think about all the other people on the planet who aren't or why should I be the one who has to do this? There are so many other people. I mean, it's that same idea of what can even happen.
Like the bystander effect can happen when the group of people aren't even there, because that's true when it's like a virtual or like mentally.
Yeah, that's so true when you're not even in the same place. So this can apply to much bigger world issues. You're probably expecting this everybody but the Holocaust, Rwandan genocide, climate crisis, very easy to not feel responsible for recycling or saving the planet.
If you're like, well, there's a bunch of other people who could do this better than me or and so you don't do your part. And it's very common. So these findings forced us to consider how we'd perform under pressure. They reveal that Kitty Genovese neighbors might have acted in the same way we would have not because they're urban assholes or whatever The New York Times says, but just because that is human nature.
However, it is important, again, like I said earlier, the crime, the real crime is the man who raped and stabbed her, Winston Moseley.
So I don't want to forget that fact. However, that being said, it is widely believed that someone could have prevented her death. So then it becomes like morality, ethics can of worms again of like, well, then who's responsible? Obviously, the killer is responsible, but like I could have stopped it.
Is the aftermath responsibility fall on. Yeah. Yeah. Or like if you could have stopped it. Are you also murder a murder like it's like, I don't know, like survivor's guilt.
It's like a in some ways it's a survivor's guilt. I think at least if you were one of those people or if you're like the mad friend who's upset with all the bystanders because it's like you could have saved her and you didn't and therefore I blame you. Yeah.
Yeah. It's like there's some sort of blame on you were you were in the wrong place at the wrong time. You weren't planning on murdering anybody, but like maybe you could have intervene. I mean, in my head, it goes to the whole trolley problem of like, well, am I a murderer if I prevent these people from dying, but I kill this person. But that's a whole nother thing.
So we'll get to that. Another anxiety. This isn't it, spiraling help. I'm going to join a cult, so one source called Making Queer History notes it's interesting that in a story used to highlight the ways people ignore each other, Kitty herself usually goes by unnoticed. So a little bit about Kitty herself. Born July 7th, 1935 in Brooklyn, went to an all girls high school and her senior year quote, was the class cut up? That's Kitty.
She's quite a gal, you know, always doing things for a laugh, like going swimming in the snow.
She sounds like a jet after high school, she lived with her grandparents for a while. She married a military cadet in 1954, but it was annulled within a year. And this was a shock to her family. But once she was independent, Kitty took full advantage of her newfound freedom. She found her calling as a barmaid and the picture she's most recognized for the picture that's attached to the famous article about her murder is ironically, a mug shot which was taken in 1961 for bookmaking, a.k.a. gambling, because she ran a small betting system out of her bar.
The like a goddamn blast she was. Yeah, she was.
She took patrons money for horse racing. She was known for her skill and good humor. And she had actually been brought into the police station for that and let go like right away because she was just very charming and like, easy to, you know, dismiss.
It was a minor charge and one that she kept as a secret from her family back in Connecticut, which makes it extra, said that they used that photo right after her death as like the photo, the shocking photo.
So she also lived in a neighborhood that wasn't like super dangerous or anything. Unlike what the article said, people left their doors unlocked. People in the area knew her. They saw her come and go from work. She went out to dinner with them every now and then. And they knew her roommate, Mary Ann Salenko, who I also already mentioned, was her girlfriend as another bartender who painted on the weekends, like I've kind of hinted they were not just roommates.
They had met at a place called the Swing Rendezvous, which was a lesbian bar run by a woman named Mitch at the time.
And Marianne was called to identify kiddie's, it sounds like.
Oh, God, what's that TV show? OK, it doesn't matter a word.
What could never write?
I'm sorry, the lesbian bartender did. Mitch just really got. I know. Isn't this like it sounds like it's just like queer.
I know it sounds like a script to, like, a fun HBO quirky drama. Yeah. I love it.
I want to I want to play Mitch. Oh, boy. Nobody gets murdered in our version, though, right? So Marianne was called to identify Kitty's body after her murder was given little by comfort by the officers who accompanied her. She said they took me down to the police station in Queens and for six hours they questioned me. So at the same time, I was sorry. At the time, same sex partners were often immediately suspected in violent crimes on an assumed motive of jealousy.
So that's a cute look.
It was just assumed that same sex couples were more jealous of each other and caused them to murder Paola.
OK, ok. Yeah, OK, calm down. Same sex partners were also questioned for longer and on less evidence than heterosexual partners. Again, not shocking, and police were as likely to arrest them as to help them. And remember, in 1964, homosexuality was actually a crime still under New York law. So this wasn't even something you could defend yourself with. Right. So Mary took the stand as a legal witness under the guise of a friend and roommate.
Prosecutors knew the truth. However, they were afraid that if they brought Kitty's sexuality into it, that it would sway the jury, which is a fair point. It's not. Yeah, great.
But if they're going to judge her differently on it, like, OK, I guess if we're trying to pin her murder, I don't know. That's another can of worms.
I guess this is a whole wormy so full of worms.
This is just a lot a lot of entanglement happening here. A factory of worms.
OK, so let's see if we're talking about worm factories here. Let's talk about Trolly. And I would love a good game.
You know, they may make those out of gelatin.
You got to eat a non gelatin gummy worm.
Otherwise you're eating horse hooves. All right, whatever.
It's easy to ignore it when it's delicious. I know how that sounds. Very interesting. Mr. Cult situation, Mr. Bystander Effect.
Well, OK, if everyone is eating them, OK, anyway, I have like four points left. I'm not I don't want to start a crusade against him right now.
I like I like gummy worms and that is probably not even a sour patch kid or school or so. Oh no, I'm sorry. We'll talk about this later. I could, I could oh I could be converted. Twizzlers, sour patch skittles. OK, well ok. Look how easy that was.
I told you, just do your research and I'll say that to you later. I'll send you my source wink ok.
Right. Right, right, right. So anyway, homosexuality was a sin, not a sin.
It is a sin in a lot of places is a crime at that time under New York Law Center.
I do not for that reason, but for other reasons.
The gummy worms. Yup. So like I said, Marion took the stand as a legal witness under the guise of a friend or roommate. They didn't want the killer to get off with a lighter sentence because people had preconceived notions and judgments.
So it is pretty wild to think that Kittie was basically unknown, who only became like an international and like public figure and source in to this day that's recognized in the field of psychology after her death, which is just so wild to think like it wasn't until she died that she became such a huge name.
So this is a great quote by Harold Tsukushi. And here's who has a Ph.D. in an article for the general psychologist, he said, Kitty is known only for the last 28 minutes of her life, not the first 28.
Wow. Which is like very powerful in my mind.
And if you do want to find out more, there's a book called Kitty Genovese, The Murder, The Bystanders, The Crime That Changed America. That's the one I referenced earlier.
I have not read. It looks great. The cover is outstanding.
I have not had time to read it, but I'm sure it's lovely and I probably will eventually. So that was a story of Kitty Genovese and the bystander effect and how that kind of created Ninan. Wow. Neighborhood Watch.
It created a lot of folks like Major Psychology Tiwa.
Yeah, well, that's pretty cool anyway. Well, I. I had no idea. And now I also it makes me want to go back and look at like old psychology notes and stuff like that. So I know I'm like, you got to check your notes.
My research obviously do your damn research and not at university. Oh no, no, no.
Unfortunately I thought well after after being so invested in all this kind of stuff I like I feel like I could say do your research about just about anything and technically be right. So I guess it's pretty easy.
It's like if you don't know the answer, you do. Your research is like, fucking know, you tell me, you tell me.
But also, like, use the sources that I want you to use, you know. Yes, exactly. You get it anyway. Thank you, everyone, for tuning into the only important source, which is and that's why I drink.
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Yeah. And I got to take you out to that's why. Smooth we go pee if we go I guess. Got to pee in the snow, you know, more fun to pee in the snow. Don't eat the yellow snow.
That's where we were trying to go and it didn't happen. And that's why we drink.
Eat that snow cone. OK, bye bye.