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All right, Miss Christine, hi. Hi, how are you? Are you are you well, you've got your little trashy, classy situation on your head. I do.

I thought you'd notice.

I'm so pleased that you saw my headband that this is the one that that prompted the initial trashy, classy comment, the the beginning of it all, the beginning of the end and the end of the beginning.

Well, I'm always going to know when you got your little weird clothes, cloth, bunny ears.

So that's very, very cute. You look like a cute little trashy bunny.

So I love to be a trashy bunny, especially with Easter approaching. My Catholic upbringing really works, you know, seamless, really. But I mostly use them when I don't. This is not an ad. I don't know why I'm talking like it is, but I mostly and when I don't wash my hair, which is like often on almost every day, these are the real ads.

It's like this money is coming to town. So I'm their cousin, trashy buddy, and I don't take showers.

This is how we used to do ads until every company was like, stop calling us trashy and stop comparing us to the Catholic Church. None of this is what we want you to say.

No, my sweet little bunny, I it's very nice to see you. I missed you yesterday. I feel like we we talked a lot and I didn't see your face enough.

So, yeah, we had a meeting and was just like, I don't know how to turn on my camera. So you were kind of voice of God in the background the whole time.

I really couldn't figure it out. We were using a different meeting, so that's like a million of them nowadays.

I mean, whatever we all missed, you painted a beautiful picture saying, oh, I'm in it, don't worry, I'm in a white robe with the sun setting behind me. I added a cigar for my own for my own taste and it was beautiful. You paint a picture in my mind. So thank you.

Thank you. I really I wanted everyone to still feel like I was above them. Right. In some way. I got it. You know, you couldn't you couldn't see me, but I was going to make sure you could see something. Right. And so course there comes that illustrates. I did see something. Yes, I. Was it like a nightmare, a vision of you running from. Yeah, it was a lot of night terrors in my sleep.

I wanted to thank you. I'm sorry. I feel like I keep interrupting. Oh, you're welcome. Something really wise and sage. But yeah, I wanted to thank you. For those of you who don't know, Christine surprised me and Eva with a literal bouquet. Doughnut's each of our doors.

I'm sitting here going, what are you thinking? Before I didn't send a plunger this week. I don't think I know what that plunger has come and use so much in terms of being my new dawn on the ceiling. No, no, no. We've got other pleasures. But no, because Trey Songz has needed a stern talking to and he's gotten it on the business end of this plunger by me doing a little tap and so very powerful. You're you're so good.

Full of weekly presence. Anyway, I wanted to thank you publicly that those donuts or some of the best donuts I've ever had.

Oh, really? I'm glad you liked your donuts. I was kind of annoyed that they didn't ship from L.A. to Kentucky, so I didn't get any donuts. But I'm living vicariously. I'm pleased that you like them. I have never heard of a donut book before, so I'm glad it worked out.

Thank you. Anyway, I wanted to be to the punch before I forgot and that is why I drink this week, is that you treated me some fine gifts recently and I feel very loved.

So you for well you are very loved. I feel like ever since I left town I have to prove it all the time. Do you guys not because you asked me to but because I feel insecure that I left you.

I mean if the result is a box of donuts every week, I'll let you feel like shit. That's OK.

You're going to keep like letting me believe this horrible truth about myself.

Oh, Christine, I don't feel loved to send me another toiletry object. Why do you drink this week? Oh, thank you for asking.

I actually don't drink this week because I am going on a road trip today. Oh, right. Yes. I'm so excited about this idea of going driving all the way to Lexington, Kentucky, our half south of me, to get my big old needle in the arm. covid vaccine. I'm so excited. I got an email a few days ago and they were like, you have like a window of two hours to snag your spot.

And I jumped in, picked it was the only day they had was our day of recording. So I'm sorry. I've been like, aggressively rushing you guys. I feel like in weird text, like, no, I'm leaving.

Honestly, we we as a unit need this because do you know how many times we've started before? Like late is even a word at that point.

No, I know now we're late. We've already got through our ads and everything and it's we're twenty three minute time. Usually we start at ten, it's ten, twenty three. Like this is pretty good.

This is actually honestly pretty amazing and I felt like I was being kind of aggressive about it. But thank you. I'm very excited. Initially I was going to go down by myself and it's an hour and a half drive there. Then I have to get the shot. Then I guess they watch you for a half hour, then you have to drive back.

And my shot isn't until six forty. So it was going to be really late, but my sister's coming over to watch.

Go Blaze and I are driving down a little road trip, little couple bonding while I probably have a fever in the passenger seat and.

As you gain a love for the taste of flesh as yet, yes, that's right. As I take over the state of Kentucky and become a monster. Yeah.

So I'm very excited. I got my eye.

As everyone knows, I'm terrified of needles and I get needles in my arm constantly like I did Monday for Remicade. And I'm just fulfilling my prophecy of surrounding myself with my worst fear over and over again.

It's your calling. I feel for you when it comes to the fear of needles. I'm terrified of needles. And apparently Alison didn't know that until way late. And, ah, I didn't know that about you. Oh, I'm so beyond I. Oh yeah. If I were to get like a like a wildly invasive surgery, the thing I would care about the most is getting the like the initial needles. I see. Yeah. Yeah.

That's always my thing.

When I go to a place I have to be like, I want you to understand that, like I need you to like for my wisdom teeth.

I cried for days. I didn't give a shit about the actual surgery.

I sobbed about the fucking IV and I got on the other day on my hand and it still hurts. It's bruised, as you can see.

And it's like now I've been having this thing, this Remicade for 11 years now.

And still every single couple, every eight weeks.

I'm petrified and well, it's really terrible, to be fair. I feel like even if you didn't have a fear of needles before, like just getting something like that, every X amount of days for your entire life is just going to cause an issue with what you think.

But everybody says like, oh, well, you'll get used to it because, you know, at a certain point you just have to give up and sort of. But not really. I'm still terrified. But anyway. Yeah, sorry. So that's a derail. But yes, covid vaccine very excited.

Blayse has already been vaccinated, so we're going to be hopefully a somewhat safer household. Nice.

Well, yeah, RJ has been vaccinated. He's gone through both. Oh, good. Wow. Shots already. I don't know how I don't know how it works, but apparently in California, maybe this is all over. But it feels like a very California thing that he's a lifeguard during the summer. And so that that makes him a front line worker.

Oh, I don't understand, but I was very beach. Yeah. Beach oriented.

I was like, OK, that sounds very Santamonica, but imagine if I told Lexington, Kentucky, I'm a lifeguard, please go home. It's snowing outside.

Well, he also so he still has to work and he works with kids. And I guess since that's a big one, too.

Yeah, I guess since the because he's like a first grade swim coach on top of being a lifeguard, he's like a jack of all swimming trades. But so I mean, I guess since the pandemic started, they've been doing like remote. It's been the funniest thing in the world, Chris. Swim lessons with six year olds. Stop it.

So I presume they'll like, you know, like float around like, oh, my God, it sounds like a barn.

A scene from Barney's, like RJ is the front in line.

Barney Yeah. The new purple dinosaur that everyone needs. Yeah. So they like fake tread and water or something. He also has been really good about because he also does a whole lot like manifestation videos and things like that. So he's like oh he'll do like little workshops with the kids where they sit there and close their eyes and imagine they're in the pool and imagine they're going to be there last time.

The sweetest thing ever. And you could hear all these little six year olds go by.

Coach RJ, stop. It's very sweet.

So, OK, I would run over there with and stab him in the arm myself with a needle. So I understand now why California said, sir, get in the front of the line.

I think they're trying to start up the the classes in real life. So that's why he had.

Yeah, working with kids is definitely like up there in the first phases, I think.

Yeah. Anyway, sorry, that was another derail. Welcome to and that's why we drink where we just drill every five seconds.

This is the last this is the first non kuhnen episode in like a month. Oh my God Christine. I'm first of all the influx of just kind words for everyone after my kuhnen. You did a great job.

People were on into it. Thank you. I really appreciate. I really worked hard to make sure I didn't offend anybody. While we actually are talking about Kuhnen, I have a little bit of an announcement which I'm not in.

And you're joining us. You really sounded like you were you. And I'm surprised you convinced yourself.

No, I've been thinking about I haven't seen anyone complain about this, but like, I kind of think it's a matter of time if I don't address it. So I'm just going to do it now and for good reason, by the way. But I realized that in the midst of doing a first of all in and being a kind person in general and someone who I like to think is pretty empathetic, I should have been more aware of it before.

But after doing the Q and on episodes, I'm realizing it was just very tasteless of me that during all the London fog nonsense we've been bringing up, people are calling it the London fog. Cults and I, I would like to rebrand because I I've had my entire life that I've had my time in the limelight as a cult leader and it's been fun, my turn.

It's been fun. But I think we need to we need to do a little judging, if you will.

Yeah, I get you some brand. Brand. What's the word? Restructuring. I don't know.

Yeah, well, anything anything that sounds really professional. That's marketing term, I'm sure. And so a revamping revamp. Yeah, that's the one.

And so I've decided I've been I've been flirting with a bunch of other group names and just I just want to avoid cults just because I have just discussed for the last several years, like, you know, there's a lot of victims of cults out there.

And I called it a cult, too. So I apologize if that was setting the train in motion.

I think neither of us were really aware of what was going on. I think I was just so excited that people were listening to me about the world's greatest drink. But so I have decided on the London Fog Society and it's so classy.

I know. So swanky. I feel like we should all get membership cards by the end of the year. You all got to have your pinkie up when you're drinking your London fog. Well, I'll have like a little lapel pin chapter meetings by a by a smoky fireplace. So, you know, your cigar can come back, your white robe can come back to you.

Oh, listen, I circulate that that robe in and out of my life. In many ways. I say I need a versatile accessory.

I'm saying so. Anyway, the London Fog Society is how we shall now be named.

Furthermore, furthermore, is that how you're on to furthermore, we shall be called thus the end of your founding father, Amethi.

But yeah. So if you are to be spreading the good news, I would suggest that you refer to us from now on as the society don't even have to add London Fog Society in there.

If you don't want just the society I recommend you just call it the society, because I think that alone has its own Mystere.

You know, I love it because then you can tell people like, oh, I'm part of the society. Never heard of it. Oh, no, no. It's too it's too grandiose to talk about here.

Not here. Not now. Not here. Not now. Yeah. And then you can you can take your robe and go wash and turn around.

You know, I'm so glad I like painted a picture of me in a robe one time.

I can't stop thinking I like that I got you a tidy robe and instead you're just envisioning yourself in a white, glorious godly robe.

Yeah, there are four there are two different types of parties. SCOTTER Yeah.

The tidy ones when you're chasing down the ice cream truck and that's my my after hours robe. That's important.

Oh, it's empty at night anyway. Oh my gosh. So there you go. There's we're part of the society now. Welcome.

Am I part of it. Yeah. Yeah.

You've been dry. You sound a little unsure of yourself there.

I forgot that you had been drinking Lenine Fogg's but then I remembered you are obviously part of the society. I drank them before there was a contest.

OK, I went and had one in your I walked through snow.

You should be crampy their feet both ways to get my my classy London fall without milk. OK, I just like your father did grandpapa in the olden days.

You know what I like to think in terms of the London Fog Society. I am everyone's grandpapa. Grandpa Amethi. You're certainly my Christopoulos Grandpa.

OK, well, anyway, that only announcement, I just wanted to, you know, judge things up, I don't want to be making fun of anyone or anything like that, so. Oh, Christine, yeah, oh, you just sat so still, it was like I was at a haunted house, you were like with us, you were like, this has never happened, Christine, stop moving and start speaking. Something is very wrong. I was just trying to tell myself to stop interrupting the interrupting the flow of the episode.

Clearly, I've just created a whole new disruption. I apologize.

My heart stopped. I was like, I'm waiting till I hear a little girl giggle or something. It's very creepy.

My eyes glossed over like all. Delysia, I apologize.

I was just kind of leaving open a window for you to tell me your story for today. Thank you. That's the first in four years between either of us.

But I let the other talk. Yeah. Isn't that fun? No, it's not. Apparently it's terrible. Doesn't work. No.

I appreciate you trying not to interrupt me as I regularly interrupt you.

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OK, so my story this time is a paranormal story so everyone can relax for a second. I'm not going to talk about like your personal loved ones anymore. This is from 1981 is in Brookfield, Connecticut. If you are from that area, you might know the story I'm about to cover. And it sounds like it's a true crime. It is actually a demonic story. Oh, this is the trial of Auntie Cheyenne Johnson, a.k.a. the Devil Made Me Do It.

Case what? OK, I'm so excited, a.k.a. the demon murder trial, a.k.a. the Brookfield Demons case. Holy shit.

Why can't we all just ever settle on one goddamn name? Never. OK, anyway, so this is 1981 Brookfield, Connecticut, and at this point, Brookfield, Connecticut had been around for one hundred ninety three years, had never had a homicide.

What? Wow. They're apparently at this time or around this time, the papers were like raving like it's been a hundred and ninety three years without a homicide. That's called a jinx. And it friends. Yeah, someone should have knocked on some wood. Also, it's funny that that's how they're phrasing it, because that's like me being like 28 years without a homicide over here.

It's like it's been almost ten decades since I murdered anyone.

Also, why why are you celebrating on year one nine three? Why didn't you pick like three years earlier or you were so close to 200 years? You could maybe they just had a feelings because can you imagine you get so close to 200, then someone murder someone. You're like, well, we couldn't have Paradies off.

Tell the mayor to go home.

That's an excellent point. Actually, something was like we're getting too close to dangerously. I like how they held out for one hundred ninety three years, though.

They were like, something is small, something's afoot.

We might as well go for it. So anyway, so February 16th, there was a 19 year old named Arnie Johnson who owned by Cheyenne. And I think that is just like a family nickname or something. So February 16th, nineteen year old Cheyenne stabbed his landlord multiple times with a pocket knife. His landlord name was Allen Bono and Allen died later in the hospital. Oh, no, Cheyenne was arrested and eight months later, he pled not guilty by virtue of demonic possession.

Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.

Which was the first time in U.S. history that this defense was used.

You don't say this is not to be confused, by the way, with the other story of LVA Zona heister, which we have covered before, where she was the she had already died. And with her through the Ouija board, she helped her mom find her murderer or something like that. Mm hmm. So when people hear the devil made me do it or anything along those lines, it sounds a lot like I know who my murderer is. Case or.

Yeah, they just get kind of combined. So that is not the same story. Elverson accuser is a different story there. So Cheyennes attorney, his name was Martin Manilla. And when they decided to use this demonic possession defense, Martin Menella said the courts have dealt with the existence of God and now they're going to have to deal with the existence of the devil. So just to give you some background, Arnie was 19, he was known as Cheyenne by his friends and family.

He had a 26 or 27 year old fiancee named Debbie Glassell. And Debbie is another big part of the story. So in July the year before, the couple had recently signed a lease for a rental property from alum Bono. And apparently they were super in love. They actually met when Arnie was a kid. He was 12 and had like a crush on her. She was older than him. And I think Debbie actually became friends with his mom.

And so she was always around and he says it was love at first sight. And eventually when he got older, he asked her out and she said yes. And they have been together ever since. Apparently it's a little touch and go because Arnie was 16 and she was twenty three. But we're going to ignore that because they are still in love to this day at least.

And when he was 12 she was like twenty nineteen at 19 and so and she was like not about it when he was 12. Right. To be fair. But yes. Yes. But she was about it when he was 16 so. Right. I don't know, I don't know what you want to do with that information. They ended up being very much in love and are still together. I think so it worked out in this case. So eventually they found this rental property and it needed some maintenance, though.

So the family was regularly going over and they were going to start cleaning. I think this day happened to be. It depends on the reports. There's a lot of like the details are sort of muddled. So I don't know if it was just the couple and Debbie's little brother or if the mom was also there. It doesn't really totally matter. But so Cheyenne and Debbie went over to the rental property to start cleaning it up a little bit. I'm pretty sure Debbie's mom was there and Debbie's little brother and David were there.

So I don't know how weird this is supposed to be. It was like a random fact that I saw. And I don't it doesn't become like a big detail. But I guess for the sake of spookiness, it was supposed to be spooky. I guess the previous tenants left a bed sitting in the middle of the master bedroom. The entire place was completely empty, but a random bed was still sitting in a room and it only felt eerie and creepy once I watched.

There's like a dramatic reenactment of the story on the show, haunting, a haunting, and all of a sudden the bed became like the spookiest thing in the fucking world beforehand. I totally ignored that fact. But if you watched the if you watched the a haunting episode about this, you will see that there was a little, I think, artistic license used in the story, you know, so while they were there cleaning, they asked David to go clean and the bedroom where there was that bed.

And suddenly David got pushed onto the bed and he said that the old man in that room pushed him. Oh.

And no one else was there. Oh, OK. I was like, we don't know that man. Right. OK, you don't know about that man. Apparently nobody was there. But David swears that an old man pushed up onto the bed and the man apparently had a plaid shirt that was torn at the elbow and he had jeans. And David said that the man pointed at him and said, beware. Oh, he said that he was going to hurt the family if they moved onto the property.

And when David ran to tell Jane and Darby about this, they just thought he was like trying to get out of helping clean. So they were like, OK, whatever, like go out in the yard every evening.

Christina No, you don't understand. There's a ghost. Want to sit outside my robe? And he was like, please leave.

Please leave the premises. I can't I've been trying to get you to leave for hours and finally get out of here.

So that night, apparently, David actually saw this guy again when they got home. So I followed them home.

Oh, there. Oh, God, yeah. So they've been staying at Debbie's mom's house while they're cleaning out the rental property. So their version of home right now is Debbie's mom's house. Right. So they were all there. And David, the little brother, saw this man again. And this time he said the man was starting to look different. So he was already shifting into something else. Apparently, he had burnt looking skin and he was barefoot.

And this time he spoke Latin names and he said, beware. He said he was going to take David's soul, all the classics. And soon David's started calling him The Beast and started seeing him throughout the day. So it wasn't even just like a creepy thing at night. It was happening all the time. Oh, apparently, David said that he could see the beast's, quote, big black eyes, thin, faced with animal features, jagged teeth, pointed ears, horns and hoofs.

Oh, hoofs, hooves, hooves, hooves. Hmm. Everything OK? I thought hooves. It behooves you to say whose hopes it behooves me to say who. Wait a minute, all of it's wrong. Oh, that's wrong. OK, we don't know this language very well.

It's OK. So, yeah. So he started the beast man kept finding him and saying, beware, don't move on the property, I'll hurt your family. And David very quickly started changing from a very bubbly, happy kid to quiet and anxious all at the same time. They started hearing noises from the attic that were unexplained. But you never hear anything more about that. So I don't know how that plays into things. Maybe that was completely irrelevant, but there started to be scratches and bruises all over David's body when he was going to sleep at night.

So it was like these injuries were just showing up when he was even causing them. And he was now starting to wake up every 30 minutes and have seizures. And he was also having really terrible nightmares. And the family basically had to start taking shifts, staying up with him or trying to hold him down because he would start fighting in his sleep.

How old was he at this point? Do we know he's 12? OK, wow, that's terrible.

He would start he started spitting on them. He started kicking them. He started biting the family. He tried to apparently attack his grandma with a knife, according to one report, and he regularly was acting like he was being choked or stabbed by something that they couldn't see. Oh, jeez. So that's pretty terrible. Yeah. Here's a quote that one time he looked, quote, strangled by invisible hands, which he tried to pull from his neck and powerful forces flopped him rapidly head to toe like a rag doll.

Oh, so he told his family what was going on. He was telling his mom about this. And his mom, Judy, said, quote, I believed him instantly. I've read about the supernatural. I've heard the Warrens lectures. And when he first explained it, I thought it was a ghost. So she's on top of it. She's like like right away. She was like, all I need to hear is half of that information. And I'm on board to get you help, old man.

I'm in. Uh huh, yep.

You said there's not not a man near my house. No, no. And so David's parents went to their pastor and the pastor tried to help. I think they did like some blessings around the house or something, but eventually they said there's nothing we can do here. You should call the Warrens so and learn more. And hopefully you know who they are by now. But they're a very famous power couple. Let's call them. I would say power couple.

Definitely.

Ed is a demonologist and Lorraine is a clairvoyant. And together they have gone on some of the most intense supernatural cases to try to help however they can. So are they still alive? No, they're they've both passed OK, but they also happen to live nearby Brookfield, Connecticut. So I think they were kind of relatively close so they could just pop on over because they're from Monroe, Connecticut. I think that's right. Yeah. So they called the Warrens and they called the Warrens.

Twelve days from the first event and apparently only twelve days. And it was just like awful. They yeah, that's fast. So Lorraine was quoted saying we were contacted by the family who believed the weird phenomena where that was surrounding their child. And here's where it gets kind of weird, too, because later I'm going to get into the shadier part of the Warrens just because a lot of people think that their credibility is in one hundred percent and that goes for most of their cases.

There's a lot of skeptics. Right. And one of the things that people are skeptical, skeptical of this time is that apparently Debbie and her mom, Judy, were like big fans of the Warrens.

And so it's not a good look. Yeah, it sounds like they were just willing to and to agree to whatever the warrants were saying. Like she and she was like right away. I was like, it's a ghost. Yeah.

She's not having real seizures. It's Coleraine. And and that quote of her, she said, like, I have seen the Warrens lectures and all that like. Right. So they apparently were just like a Warren fan family. So it doesn't really help that they were probably just willing to believe whatever the war in South Ossetia. So in an initial visit with the Warren family, Lorraine said that she saw, quote, a black misty form next to David.

Soon, the child was complaining that invisible hands were choking him and there were red marks on him. He said that he had the feeling of being hit. David would be doodling and he'd be concentrating. And then he would look up and he would no longer be an eleven year old boy.

Oh, OK. So that was like on their first goddamn visit, apparently, that he was just like his face was contorting in front of them and only she could see it. Oh, and Judy said that she thought originally it was a ghost, but and Lorraine I guess educated her later that it actually wasn't a ghost that he was being afflicted by. So the Warrens told The Washington Post The Washington Post, by the way, had like the longest article on this I could find so.

Interesting shout out to The Washington Post, the Warrens told that paper that, quote, Ghosts, after all, are small potatoes and the supernatural scheme of things.

Oh, I like I'm down with the small potatoes. I don't need to know anything else. Small potatoes keep me down here.

Sad little spirits that somehow haven't crossed over properly lingering on and the material world close to old associations, sometimes mischievous, rarely malevolent. This was different. The spirit infesting David Glassell is inhuman and evil.

So I guess if the if his face was contorting and they saw a shadow figure behind them or whatever, they were like, OK, this is no bueno.

This is no longer a sad little human or whatever they call the ghost.

This this is, you know, small potatoes.

Oh, I love small potatoes. So I do this to you and I. Let's stick with that. Yeah. Yeah.

Let's let's stick with all the walters' and all the smaller the potatoes starches. Yeah, yeah.

Walter does sound like if it had to be a type of food it would be a starch. Absolutely.

So the gene is Jinnah's engine starts Oh my God. I said I think it is.

Hang on a second. That's we're on to something here is gin is OK. The Internet's like, what is this mean. OK, well, vodka is corn, right?

A starch.

This is like the worst Home EC class. Home EC. Yeah.

Here's what vodka is for sure, whatever kind of class this would be. But no, I don't know. I know the booze is made of starch, so, you know, I'm close enough.

OK, so boozes mainstage ghostlike Bouis ghostwrote potatoes, potatoes.

Ghosts are starch and like they're starch like for H and algebra.

I'm pretty sure neurobiologists now they can happen. Yeah. I have regular biologist's one hundred percent.

My brain unlocked something. I heard it happen anyway.

I think it was just snapping but yeah I guess I saw Chalong to leave my my cornhusk if I leave your mind. So the orange mintzberg Brookfield to investigate. Obviously they apparently brought along a guy named Reverend Francis Virgilia and Ed Warren claims that the that Reverend Roguelike and them had worked on previous cases together. The Catholic clergy cannot confirm this, which also makes it interesting in terms of if you're on the skeptical side.

So they did three, quote, lesser exorcisms on David, which I guess are more deliverances versus exorcisms. And I'll explain later why they didn't do like an official exorcism, but they did three lesser exorcisms on David, where at the time of these lesser exorcisms, they saw him levitating. He stopped breathing. At one point, he gave the names of 43 demons. Oh, sing him Jesus. Forty three.

What an escalation from twelve days ago when you saw an old man and now there's forty three demons.

Also there, man had jeans on like what happened. He's not made a starch like the others I guess. I guess not. There is another report that said that he was actually made up of forty three demons and two devils which I found interesting that the devils and demons were different.

Yeah, I'm clearly not equipped to teach this class anymore. So I don't I'm not a numbers kind of person.

I'm, I'm more of a meat and potatoes.

We're a big picture meat and potatoes kind of folk. But anyway because there were potentially forty five entities, if you count the two devils, his mom, Judy, any time she referred to the entities in David, she would call them they and they then pronounce hey, oh, we're normalizing pronouns.

However we have to.

However we have however this if this is the angle that it takes, if this is what gets you to pay attention, will throw in forty five demons. Sure. But so apparently Judy started referring to David as they.

Because of all of you. That's creepy though. Yeah.

So that's why I call you. They, I know I have more demons. You've built of a thousand demons.

I was going to make a comment about like skeletons in my closet or something, but the built on a thousand demons is just so grunge.

That is so seen as a I feel the word that is the name of my live journal. I built on a own demons.

If you had it, if you were the person who had the A.I.M. screen, even know what the name is anymore screenname you screen name.

If you had the screen name built on a thousand demons, please, God, write us your entire. Autobiography and I will read it on the part of your friend. But it was that begins. Oh, it was.

You're definitely right. I tried to get it but he had it.

So I had to change the zit, the S to Z, but I had the knockoff version.

Obviously, Eres was just built on 100 demons.

Oh yeah. I was like the lesser. Yeah, that's that. I was like the bargain bin version of the bargain. A Hill of demons.

Yeah. You are built to that. That's why we use um pronouns.

I know a lot of people don't really get it but I the because they're built on a thousand demons and two devils.

Finally we can have this conversation. I feel safe enough. OK, good, good, good, good, good. Thank you. Thank you for bringing this to everyone's attention. I thought it's about time. I kind of want to be known as someone I like. That's such a badass. I feel like you get to be immediately a Hells Angels. Absolutely.

I think our podcast would like take over if let's start this rumor, folks, that this this is built on a thousand demons.

I want to get a better chance. Like Spotify has to create a new category for, like featured podcast.

It's just called like podcasts built on a thousand demons. And it's just us.

That's like the category is just our podcast, sometimes in around a thousand and two.

Oh, right.

My bad. Believe it or not, we are heading into spring, Amethi, spring one, Christopoulos, that's pretty crazy. Hang on, hang on. It is. And the only reason I can like time out my seasons is because Fatfat Fun sends their seasonal boxes out. And then I know what season I'm in because they send me products for each season. Do you know what I'm saying?

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That's code drink at Flex Flex fits dotcom. OK, so yes they add David and his forty five friends. They frenemies. Yeah. Good point. Good point.

Apparently David started in front of the war and started hissing. He was having more seizures. He was speaking in voices.

He apparently started quoting the Bible a lot and he was also quoting passages from Paradise Lost, which is a very interesting, creepy.

I don't know what that means in terms of like demons and ghosts, but I can't do it. So that's true.

I can't do any of that. All of the above. So the family and the Warrens could also sense whenever, quote, the Beast was about to take possession of David because, oh, this was a quote of how they could tell his head would lower to his chest and he was slowly lifted. And when he did, his features would have contorted into a snarl and there was nothing to be seen but the whites of his eyes. And then he would laugh a hideous laugh.

I mean, 12 year olds are terrifying already. And now imagine that they look down for a second and go back without pupils and they're cackling and their faces all twisted up.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Nope. I don't like that. End of story. The end period, the end.

Another quote about this time and are hanging out with David.

Quote, They say, the plates have levitated, that rocking chairs have flown through the air and books moved mysteriously away and that a cake pan floated straight to the ceiling. The Beast has called up David's brother on the telephone and warned him to beware you, which means like ring, ring. Who could it be?

And you don't have caller ID you it's just it's just your friends know.

And to keep going with the code. And Debbie says she has been clawed by a mysterious green hand rising from the floor and attacking her in her bed at night.

Oh, and she too has seen the face of the beast. Debbie has said, quote, I saw a face with jagged teeth and cold black eyes. It had horns and pointed ears. Flashing lights appeared on the wall. And then I heard my mother in Cheyenne call my name. So almost like she was also in a trance from this thing. Yeah. Because all of a sudden she could hear people calling her name. There were some more boring instances, I guess, of the forty five living within them.

Some of them just had to get the daily chores done because not everyone can be the star of the show.

I guess not everyone can be the beast. So apparently, Judy, the mom said that she would also experience random things like her clothes getting dumped out of her drawers and cosmetics getting thrown on the floor, just like really inconvenient situations. She also said that she would would call them punks to their face, like she would like scream at them about how they're being punks. And she would tell them to go back to where she came from or where they came from.

OK, and apparently when David that one time was getting thrown around like a rag doll, this was Judy tried to defend David by saying he can't even do a sit up, leave him alone.

OK, I'm starting to feel like this is personally attacking me.

I'm starting to feel like I am at risk. If I mean, if Alison saw my body getting thrown all over the place like I was a gymnast and and she knows what I'm capable of, she'd be like, something is very wrong.

Yeah. Something.

But it has never moved so quickly and so with such agility. So, Lember, why what's going on?

It must be many demons. The only visitation minimum 40. Fifty, I can't decide it's somewhere in there, it's got to be so one day when things were getting really bad during all this investigation with the warrants, David all of a sudden predicted a murder would be coming soon.

Oh, that's nice. Okay. I don't know how the details I don't know how specific it was, but I do know that Cheyenne himself was very nervous. So I don't know if that means that child was the one day that he claimed would be involved in this or whatever. But everyone, let's just say, was disturbed and a little bit. A little bit. And actually after that lesser exorcism or whatever they were calling it, the Warrens did call the local police and they were like, yo, so this house is super dangerous.

And the kid that is probably possessed by a demon is now like screaming references about violent acts in the area. So like just like be aware.

Well, that's why the freakin newspaper put out that article, because they were like, well, we got to do it now. Did you. They were like, we've got to pull this trigger. We don't have much time.

The guy saying, listen, I studied journalism. I know a thing or two, OK? Not very much. You know, a thing or two about a thing or two.

You really just figured that out. That makes so much sense.

Now, it's like that movie, The Post, where it's exactly like The Post was exactly like the Post where he goes to his editor and he's like, You gotta listen.

I don't know. I haven't seen it. I fell asleep on the plane while it was playing, so I'm not maybe the best person to reference it, but I do like to think Mark Ruffalo went to Brookfield, Connecticut, and was like, you got to listen, this is our moment. This child is predicting the future.

And so the parade went ahead or how many?

Seven years early.

It really I mean, you really just blew my mind because that probably is exactly how it went down, because it happened a few weeks before they called the police more than a few weeks before that.

It actually savvy journalist was like, I've been waiting to write this story my whole career and I got to do it before my chance is over.

And that journalist Mark Ruffalo and or Christine Christine ancestor being like something about this feels like it's going to surpass generations. OK, wow. Well, we've solved that fucking riddle, haven't we? OK, what's next. Hmm. Oh yeah.

So the Warrens did warn the police, as we all know now, and apparently the local press and the Warrens do say that after everything that happened and of those exorcisms, there was one report that said it was actually six exorcisms, not three. OK, I'm going to stick with three because I saw that most I think oh, I think it was three, but there were two priests at each, which equals six priests.

I don't know why is this all about equations and formulas?

If I knew that, I was going to have to know this much math for fucking telling ghost stories. One day I would have paid attention.

That's what they should say in algebra. That'll get that'll get the youths.

You need to know how to count. So you know exactly how many demons are inside I a podcast you got learn some basic edition and also take a health class, you know about starch.

So when the exorcism was over, they called the police. And the warrants say that the biggest mistake that happened out of all of this was that Cheyenne, who was involved in a lot of the lesser exorcisms, he started to challenge the demons inside, David, trying to coax them out of David Retro.

And Cheyenne was apparently he was very protective of the family and he hated seeing David in pain. And so he was saying, like, take me, I'm bigger. All this stuff. Also, this sounds very reminiscent of The Exorcist, which Debbie and her family have also said they loved that movie.

So I don't know what that means, but there you have it.

But yeah. So Cheyenne kept saying, come in to me, leave the little lad alone, which is precious little and the little lock.

And once while challenging these demons, apparently he said something like, I'm not afraid of you, I'll fight you and David, who could see these demons said back to Cheyenne, they're laughing at you, which is terrifying.

So can you imagine 45? How many was it? 45 total. Can you imagine going around the room like one, two, three, four, five, six? Yeah, they're all they're all laughing. All every laughing, every single one of them.

You are the laughing stock of this room. How sad. You're a clown. So anyway, after he challenged them, nothing really happened. But a few days later, all of a sudden, Cheyenne got in a huge car crash where he, according to him, lost complete control of the car and watched it drive itself into a tree.

Oh, God.

Again, if you're on the skeptical side of things, you can be like, OK, he got in a car crash. He's blaming it on right related events, but he swears like he was not in control of the car, he tried to control the car and yanked itself into a tree shortly after that, a few days later. So he ends up being unharmed, by the way. But only a few days later, Hemin Debbie went back to the rental house and they were looking out the window.

And Cheyenne, apparently, when he looked out the window, was looking in the direction of this well on the property. And apparently it was a well that the warrants had told him not to go near because that was the well was one of the sites where David had seen the old man. And because he had challenged the demons, they were like, you're too vulnerable right now. Don't go near any of the sites where David has seen any of these demons.

Right. So Cheyenne was on the property and just looking at a well, but he wasn't near it. But while he was looking at it, he all of a sudden kind of fell into this weird trance that Debbie remembers and he fell into the well.

I was like, how is OK, OK. He was just looking out the window. Arantes his eye line fell into the well, I suppose, OK. And he said, there he is, the beast. There he is. And all of a sudden he started growling and Debbie started slapping him to try to get him out of this trance and he didn't react. And so that is when Debbie remembers him all of a sudden also becoming possessed by this demon.

Oh, no. Apparently it was so shy. And he said, there he is, there's the beast, because he saw the demon hiding in the well. And according to Cheyenne, when their eyes met him and the demons eyes in the well, that was when he last remembers having like, clear autonomy, self like autonomy for himself.

Oh, right.

Yeah, I think so. I don't know was sure. So after that, apparently he doesn't remember much. But Debbie says that he started showing signs of possession specifically. There were five really scary times.

She didn't list all of them, but she did say one time in the middle of the night he woke her up and stared at her and said, go to bed now, even though she was already in bed, like you woke me up OK?

Yeah, exactly. Another time he. Oh, and then after he said, go to bed, he got out of bed and started hitting all of the furniture and yelling about hell. Another time they were at Mass and he started freaking out about being there, which is was out of very out of character for him. He was like very much a happy churchgoer. Yeah. Another time, Debbie heard two voices come out of his mouth at once. And that was the day that he killed Bono.

Oh. Oh, yeah. So let's talk about that day. So their landlord was Allen Bono. He apparently when they were looking for a rental property and he offered a space for them, he also happened to manage a kettle and he was like, oh, I'm looking for a job. And so he she started working for him at the kennel while they also were cleaning out his rental property. OK, and I guess he knew them.

They were very good surface level friends where he would like take them out to lunch every now and then. So, like, even though she didn't work for him, sometimes he would like call sick and to work just so he could go visit Debbie and then he would take them out to lunch. And so things like, oh, and right around the time that Cheyenne was showing all these signs of possession and growling and going into trances and not knowing who he was.

On February 16th in nineteen eighty one, Cheyenne called in sick to go visit Debbie at the kennel. He brought his sister. I think he also brought one of Debbie's sisters and Debbie's cousin because they all wanted to go. Since she worked at a kennel, they all went to see the dogs. I'm imagining this was just a precious scene and Bono decided to take them all to lunch. And this is off of the little sister's testimony. So one of the girls who was there, Bono, took them to lunch.

Depending on the report that you read, either Bono was drinking by himself or Cheyenne was drinking with him. And when they got back to the council, Bono was being belligerent and he grabbed one of the kids. And I guess Cheyenne got defensive. And according to Wanda, the sister, she said that he didn't look like himself. She tried to, like, shake him to, like, kind of wake up from his, like, weird state and he wouldn't move.

He just stared straight ahead and eventually just charged at Bono. And apparently on him he had a five inch pocket knife. And that's all. And then his sister remembers him just kind of staring off, not reacting and walking off into the woods. And she remembers seeing Bono just standing there and then falling over. And apparently he had stopped him a lot. And Cheyenne's lawyer later said that there were, quote, five, four or five tremendous wounds, including one that extended from the stomach to the base of the heart.

Oh, I like that slice.

Yeah, because you think of pocket knife, you think of like little Swiss army, but five inch pocket knife cheese. Yeah. Is basically a five inch. Just a knife. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. At that point. Yeah. I guess you can put a butcher knife in your pocket too but.

Yeah exactly. So anyway, Cheyenne was arrested and and Bono ended up dying hours later in the hospital when he was arrested, Cheyenne told cops that they were fighting over Debbie, although there's no real proof of that. And the cops originally wanted to consider this an open and shut case. But the Warrens heard about this and they said, no, no, no, like, please look deeper into this, especially since we warned you that there would be a death coming up in a town where there had never been a death before.

And I guess David confirmed that his vision was of involved. The family somehow, like knew that someone in his family was going to be involved in this death. David apparently, quote, saw the Beast go into Cheyennes body and it was the beast who committed the crime. So that was the the testimony they really fell into or leaned on. And so the family told the police that Cheyenne had visited the well before the murder when he was told not to.

And his lawyer apparently tried to get Cheyenne a plea of not guilty by reason of demonic possession.

So the lawyer, again, his name was Martin Mainella, and he found two cases in England where possession had been used. Neither of them ever made it to trial. But he used those two cases as reasoning for why they could use it right now. And Manila said, quote, I could put the pope on you. I could put the pope on. And he'd tell you that if a guy is demonically possessed, he is not responsible. And that was his big reasoning.

That's like a threat like a parent makes. Like I could bring the pope. Don't make me bring the pope in here. Exactly.

And if you turn this car around and visit the Vatican because tell you, don't you don't you fuckin try it.

So the trial was on October 28th and 1981. And apparently the priests from these, quote, lesser exorcisms were supposed to be subpoenaed, but the church ended up ordering them to not publicly discuss their practices, love the church, how they can just do anything ever that they won't ever love it, love it.

So they it with me. Thanks, Per Express.

So the diocese of Bridgeport or the area that they were near, I guess they said that we're not going to say anything except that the priests did work with David during a difficult time. That was all that they said.

OK, I've been to a Catholic church in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Have you maybe they maybe they know. Maybe, maybe I do.

They were like, oh, my God, it's the trashy bunny. Run quick. Oh, no, she's back. And it's Easter Sunday. Get her far, far away.

You know, the trashy bunny comes on Easter Saturday and on.

So all of the people in that church, Father Nicholas Grieco and the Diocese of Bridgeport, this was his official statement, quote, The policy is not to speak to the press at this time. It would be true of any situation of a pastoral nature. No formal exorcism was ever asked for or performed. No one from the church has said one way or the other what was involved. And we declined to say.

Mhm. Apparently they their reasoning for never performing an official exorcism, which is what some people might be wondering is because apparently the bishop declined to authorize it because the family didn't consent to the psychological tests that the church would need. But the family disputes that and says like we literally took them to a psychiatrist. Right. Good point. Good point to point. They apparently, when they did take him to a psychiatrist, all they found was that David had, from what I can tell or from what I see in the reports, a, quote, slight learning disability and trouble sleeping.

But I don't I don't know what sounds like less than you and I have.

And we don't. I know. I mean, well, I have a literally hello.

I have demons with a Z, so I don't really count. But yeah, you have emotional demons.

I think certainly a lot of those, that's for sure. But so the family was like we took him to get psychological testing and I'm not too sure of the details on that. But it sounds like they got the wrong psychological testing. But the church wouldn't help them figure out what testing they needed to be able to get approved in the first place. So weird that that was a weird argument. Also, the Warrens are disputing that when Father Grieco said no formal.

Racism was ever asked or was ever asked for or performed, the Warrens are like, no, no, no, we fucking asked for that, like we wanted that. Yeah. And Ed Warren said that the priests did, in fact, ask if they could do an exorcism. And this is a quote from Ed Warren. The two younger priests went directly to the bishop. We have it on tape. We hope that the priest will do what's right and come in and testify.

If they don't, we will have to subpoena them to testify and we will have to use our tapes to prove it.

Well, apparently that didn't work anyway. They ended up not saying anything more. But the police chief of his name's John Anderson, and he also wanted to speak to the priest during this investigation. And he does confirm that the Warrens called him in advance to warn them about like this, these references of violent acts from David Noel. And I mean, he was really hell bent on making sure that like this got taken seriously. First of all, was the first homicide, I kind of imagine as a police chief and like there's never been a homicide in your town and now there is one.

You're like mother, and it's not even just like, oh, somebody's like a robbery, a botched robbery. It's like, oh, it's your first homicide. And also, it was because of a bunch of demons that a possession.

I mean, Danny, there's a quote from him where he said after like one hundred ninety three years since the town's been established, not a homicide. And he goes, we couldn't have a simple, uncomplicated murder.

Exactly like you couldn't even have just a straight like. Yeah. Black and white botched robbery situation. Nope. Well, also, this was like.

Right. This was a few years later. But this was, I think, right around the time of the or was it it had to have been after the Amityville. Right. The Amityville case was in the 70s.

Yes. I wonder sorry.

Didn't mean to interrupt you there. No, not in the Amityville. Didn't the Fayose like, claim demonic possession and. Yeah.

Or didn't the Boyd say, like, he murdered his whole family because he was possessed by demons?

So is this not true? And being the first maybe this is the first documented.

Well, it was in the town in the state right there saying that this is the like the one of the town, like the town or the U.S., the national first type of demon OSAT of demon possession.

You're saying?

I don't know. We'll have we'll we'll have to look back at that. I don't know. It was that claimed in court, like as the defense, because I didn't maybe he just claimed, like, insanity.

I think that's probably maybe what it was. I don't remember at this point. Wow. I really should know.

Well, it's been a long time since we since episode four.

Was it four. Wow. Yeah. OK, well anyway, yeah, imagine being the police chief of a murder town and now it's your it's on your shoulders and also it's full of demons. Apparently the story and the Catholic Church was involved. I mean, God. And they're not helping. And also because the Amityville story had happened so recently and it was pretty nearby. Right. He was terrified as the police chief that this was just their town was going to become the new Amityville.

Right. And so he was like, not only am I dealing with a murder, which, yes, I'm probably well trained for, but I've never had to deal with before. Also, like, I broke the fucking good curse, I suppose. And now there's demons. And now also like people are flooding our town because they think it's New Amityville, especially because the Warrens are involved. Yep. So it was just not fun for him. So he was really desperate.

He was like, I want the priest to talk to me. I want anyone to give me information because I'm at a loss here. Yeah, but so anyway, that never happened. And the last thing I want to say is that so Martin Menella, the attorney and also the warrants were both mocked at different times for trying to sensationalize the story for their own gain. The Warrens have dealt with that a lot in their history. But also the attorney was guilty of doing that, too.

He was just saying some really weird things where it just sounded like he didn't really care so much about the case. Maybe he cared about winning the case, but he didn't really care about the family at all.

He was just like invested in the fact that this was a wild story that would really make his name get out there in terms of trying to defend Cheyenne. This was a quote of his Why the Devil decided to pick on Alan Bono as the instrument of Arne Johnson's destruction. Think about it. What's the guy's name? Bono. Right. And what kind of name is Bono? Italian. Right. So what is Bono mean in Italian? It means good and evil likes to destroy good.

Apparently for him, that means case fucking solved. But it sounds a little kuhnen of like, let's just connect all of these little things. Hang on.

There's a lot like eighty three miles to the west. Let's just put a pin in that and then drag is registering all the luck here. Yeah. I mean that is OK. Sure. All right.

He also wanted in during our incourt. He also wanted people to examine Alan Bono's clothing because he thought, quote, The lack of any blood rips or tears would help support the claim of demonic involvement. I wasn't there, but I guarantee there were some rips in clothing and. Considering he was sliced from the stomach to the heart, so I don't know what that guy was talking about there. Yeah, or did he mean in the kid's clothing? I don't know.

I think he meant he wanted them to look at his clothing. Yeah. And Bono's clothing in the victim's clothing.

So he was saying, oh, no, a demon did it so he didn't ruin his clothes. OK, whatever.

He also said, quote, The wounds and Albornoz body were too deep for them to have been the work of human hands, unquote. So he was really pushing for like, oh, no, no, no, this is demonic possession. And the judge ultimately rejected the plea because he, quote, Any testimony on the matter was unscientific and thus irrelevant. So Cheyenne ended up getting convicted of first degree manslaughter and sentenced to 10 to 20 years in prison.

He was released and five down. And Lorraine Warren, because if you've listened to me talk about some of her other cases, she likes to rank her cases out of ten in terms of scariness. And she ranked this nine point five out of ten. Oh, shit. Wow. Because and the only thing that would have made it the only thing that would have made it a 10 is if there was another catastrophe. Apparently, I dare say one more demon, one short.

Forty six is where I draw the line. But no. So she does have like a category like a some sort of ranking system and I guess very few of them ever hit in the 80s or 90s because that requires like a true full body possession or a death. Jeez, something like that. I don't know the actual rankings, but nine is pretty hard to get in. This was a nine point five.

That's. Yeah. So Cheyenne ended up marrying Debbie while he was incarcerated and as of twenty fourteen they were still together. And Menella and the Warrens have both again said some shady stuff. I mentioned this earlier and prioritizing going to the press with the story. Menella has been quoted saying everyone is interested in this case. Everyone we got calls from Australia, from Switzerland, from England, everywhere. When I went to London they recognized me on the street. All the top studios are interested in this, all the top producers.

Of course, my position is that we won't talk to them until the trial is over. My client is very important to me.

Aha. OK, OK, Slick.

And then Lorraine Warren, which is not a cute look. Lorraine, when asked about this she said, will we have to write a book about this. Yes we will. Will we lecture about this. Yes we will. And then asked if they were talking to movie producers, she said no, we're not. Our agents at William Morris Agency are. Shut up.

So OK. All right. Lorraine came down and when challenged on selling books and like, you know, profiting off of these families, she said, quote, Why not inform the public in informing the public you are warning the public about trespassing in the supernatural. And then her husband said instead of the church hiding facts, they should be yelling them from the rooftops. This low key nonsense. I just can't stand it anymore. You mentioned demonology to a young priest and he almost grins.

We're bringing home the positive, the reality of God, because that is the other end of the spectrum.

So I think that would have been a much slicker way to handle the situation. Let him speak next time, because you're saying, oh, my WME agents are going to handle the movie.

Producing is like not the greatest look for the validity.

It's not cute. She ended up they ended up writing a book about it called The Demon from Connecticut. And she said that the profits were going to be shared with the family, but apparently only like two thousand dollars was given to the family. And the book was published in 2006. And David himself and his other brother, Carl, sued for, quote, violating the right to privacy, libel and intentional infliction of emotional distress. Oh, wow.

So there are some arguments that this was just the brother Carl. Others say it's the brother of David, which makes this a lot more damning because David was involved in all this. But either way, Carl was definitely suing them. And Carl, maybe David also said that the case was a hoax. And the Warren said that the book would make enough money to help Cheyenne get out of jail. And that's why she should write the book and that she would help them get get out of jail.

Carl ended up writing his own book called A Loan Through the Valley, which was about his version of the events. And the Warren say that the priests involved the Warrens in response to getting sued. They said that the priests involved believe that the boy was possessed and that all the events were true. And their author of their book, called Gerald Brittle, said that he had hours of interviews from the family proving that they wanted the story told and they agreed on the story before he ever sent it out.

Cheyenne and Debbie, on the other hand, defend the Warrens as well, saying that Debbie's family is just suing for money. But the possessions were completely true and they themselves were used as the main interviewers. And that Discovery Channel episode of a haunting, the two of them told their entire story. Then again, that episode was wildly exaggerated and they like gave it the green light. So I don't know what that tells you, but David or Judy or.

No one else was there. It was just Cheyenne and Debbie telling their side of the story and it did seem very dramatic. There's also two movies, one from the 80s called the Demon Murder Case, which stars Kevin Bacon and Andy Griffith. Oh, hell, yeah. And this summer, the third spinoff of The Conjuring is going to be based on the. Oh, my God. Really? So it's going to be called The Conjuring. The Devil Made Me Do It.

And it comes out in June.

Oh, it's got goose cam. That's creepy. The end. Wow. What is up with Connecticut, man? They are just haunted as hell.

I mean, there's the haunting in Connecticut. Yeah. A demon from Connecticut. Next door is the Amityville. We got a lot of stuff going.

I married someone from there. A demon, indeed. It's almost like it was kismet at this point. It's almost like I knew that that was a haunted state.

And that's why this smells haunted. Let's go home. OK, well, thank you. Um, that was spooky. Thank you.

I have a story for you today and it is noodle's all the way to the shuttle at Noodle's all the way to the top. That was out of noodle's fall. As I was going all the way to the top. It sounded like you had noodle's in your mouth. Yeah, they were falling everywhere.

I'm so sorry. I love it. I shouldn't talk and eat at the same time.

This is the story of the infamous White House farm murders. I don't know anything about this. I didn't either, so. Oops. But it is fascinating. So this took place in the 80s as well in 1985 in a small town in Essex, England, called I believe I'm pronouncing it right. This is how it seemed to be pronounced in the series.

I watched tall Chente Darsey Tulchin to Darcy, OK.

Thirty six years ago, in a crime that horrified and stunned the nation, three generations of the Bamburgh family were murdered in their own farmhouse.

OK, so there's an HBO series about this. I don't know if it's I think it is an issue on Netflix, but it's now on HBO. It's called the murders at White House Farm. It's pretty recent. I binged it. It's six episodes. It's I really liked it. I thought it was just it is obviously based on the story. So it's it's based on a true story. Very creepy. Very well done.

Is probably some dramatization, like maybe they put a bed in or something like they did with that show.

You know what, some notes that that bed was a water bed, too, which makes it extra.

Why didn't you tell me that? That's the most horrifying fact of all.

The water bed really was like just the peak eighties, wasn't it? That's did you have my stepmom has been trying to give me a waterbed since I moved here. Like she keeps threatening to hire a truck to bring it to my house.

My mom was a huge proponent of the waterbed. And then she was the first person to be like as someone who lived that that trend, let me tell you how fucking stupid it was. It's terrible. Never comes back. Don't you ever touch it because, like, obviously fuckin accidental floods in your house.

Also, there's, like, just mold growing inside. Yeah, they're disgusting. It's awful.

Also, like no lumbar support, lumbar support, lumbar support, LML.

I mean, it's it's all bad. It's all bad. It's all sloshy. They're terrible. I've slept on several because my step mom is to this day a proponent of waterbeds and insists that I need to take her waterbed. And I'm like, where is it? And she says in the shed. And I said, When did you buy? And she said, in 1989. And I'm like, it's been in your outdoor in Ohio in the woods shed since 1989.

No, thank you.

I'm not complaining of that is probably so thin that imagine you even pick it up. It's going to fall apart.

That's it's just going to be filled with only mold, like solid maybe a better lumbar support with the mold inside it.

But just just take it and throw it away. Just tell her there's like no trace of irony, like she is insisting upon it. And I'm like, do you not hear that you're trying to make me take your gross ass waterbed? And she's like, it was very expensive.

And I was like, yeah, in nineteen. OK, I'm done.

Anyway, before we learned how inexpensive it should have been. Yeah. Before we realized what a waste of freakin money that was. So anyway, so there's HBO series. I really liked it. It's based extensively on a book written by one of the people involved in this case named Colin Cavell, and his book is called In Search of the Rainbow's End. And then another book that was written about the case called The Murders at White House Farm by Carol and Lee.

So I'm just going to tell you what happened that night and in the months following.

It is bonkers. So in the early hours of August 7th, Chelmsford, Chelmsford police station received a call from Jeremy Bamber, the son of the Bamburgh family.

He was twenty four years old.

He called the local police station and said he had gotten a phone call from his father at around three a.m. He said his dad had rung in a panic saying that loved his sister.

So there were there are two I mean, I guess I'll just tell you now who's involved.

So there's police. Yes. I would like to get names of the characters.

Well, I was going to bring in a more dramatic way in a couple of bullets, but it's got to, you know, so to grandparents Neville and June and then their two children, Jeremy and Sheila, and then Sheila's two kids who are twin boys.

Jesus, that's like all the daggers. Hang on. Can you say that again? Right. Yeah. So two grandparents, OK, two kids and grandkids. Oh. So that's just I was like, it's really not anything like like we have more family members in our own have families.

So Neville and June are the grandparents then they're Sheila and Jeremy are the kids who are adults, like in their 20s. And then there are two twins, twin boys who are six years old, who are the grandkids. Got it. So that's who's involved in the story. So Jeremy, the son calls police, says his dad never called him at 3:00 a.m. in a panic, saying that Sheila, the daughter, had gone berserk with a gun. He says during the call the line had cut off after the sound of a gunshot, which obviously made him panic about his family's safety.

So police were sent to the White House farm to investigate. So when they got there, they noticed that the House had been locked from the inside. And by the time police finally made their way in, they were met by a horrific scene. They found the corpses of four of the five family members with what they counted to be a total of 25 shots having fired at them.

Oh, was it five per body? No, it was a mixture of OK, eight to the dad.

I mean, it's my thought was if it was like just one and done on four of them and one of them was really shot, it would be a personal more of a personal attack, I don't know.

Yeah, no, it's it was quite a mix. So the bodies included. Now I'm going to give you more detail about them. So Neville and June two, 61 year old's their daughter, 28 year old Sheila and her twin sons, Nicholas and Daniel, both six all shot at the property. Neville was found in the kitchen, slumped over a chair with evidence of a struggle surrounding him. June was found on the floor of her bedroom with Sheila's body nearby.

And the six year old twin boys, Daniel and Nicholas, were found in their beds and appear to have been killed in their sleep.

Cheesus, at least. At least it was in their sleep.

Yeah, I mean, at least I mean, what the officer said, like the only the only glimmer of hope in this whole case is that they died instantly, but obviously just the most traumatic, gruesome situation.

So Sheila was found holding a gun, a 22 caliber rifle, which was determined to be the murder weapon. And it was lying on her chest, pointing towards her neck where the bullet had gone through. And she was also holding a Bible.

Hmm. So Sheila had a history of mental health problems, mental illness.

She'd been known to have psychotic episodes where she would bang her head against walls, sometimes even become violent.

And she and er Jeremy, her brother, had both been adopted by the Bambas as babies, but from different families. And a few years after she'd been adopted, she'd been diagnosed with schizoaffective disorder. And this was something that was kind of kept quiet by her family.

They were kind of traditional, didn't like this news to get out, but she was greatly suffering from her illness. So doctors described her as believing that she had been given powers by the devil and she believed she could project evil onto others, including her two sons. And she thought that she could project evil onto them and make them be violent. She had in the past spoken about taking her own life. But at the time, doctors didn't believe she was a genuine risk to herself or others.

And actually she had been hospitalized several times, the last of which was only months before the murder. So she'd actually just gotten out of the hospital a couple of months before these murders took place.

So when she was discharged, Sheila was put on strong medication. She had to have a monthly injection of like an antipsychotic drug. It had a really strong sedative effect. She was pretty miserable, but she was kind of forced to be taking these really strong drugs.

And her mental health issues were believed to have been worsened by her relationship with her mother, June, who also had severe mental health issues.

Some people tried to make that connection, but they weren't genetically they weren't blood related.

So, you know, there may have been a connection, but it wasn't right. And I think that makes sense. Yeah, got it.

So it's reported that Sheila didn't think June, her mother, who was extremely religious, agreed with her lifestyle, which included partying and drugs. She also worked for a while as a model. And when she was seventeen, she fell pregnant by her then boyfriend, Colin Cofell. But June and Neville, her parents, arranged an abortion for her.

So the relationship with her mother became pretty strained after that, if not like completely destroyed.

And then when June, her mother found her sunbathing naked with her boyfriend, it just got way out of control. And like I said, the parents were really religious. So this was just not OK.

She'd already gotten pregnant. She was doing drugs. She worked as a model. None of the. Is flying with the parents wasn't godly, it wasn't godly, and to the point that June started calling her own daughter the devil's child. Oh, well, that's also for good.

Yeah, Superdog. Good relationship. And after the abortion that her parents basically arranged for her to have, Sheila suffered several miscarriages before marrying Colin and then they had their two twin sons, Daniel and Nicholas, OK.

However, Colin had an affair and the couple split only five months after the boys were born. So they split up.

And this also marked quite a decline in her mental health. She was pretty unstable.

She was hospitalized several times and for a while, up until her death, the boys were pretty much in custody of their father.

OK, so a week long visit to the White House farm had been arranged for August 19, 1985, at the request of the Bamberger's the grandparents. They wanted Nicholas and Daniel to visit with Sheila before going on vacation to Norway with their father. So Daniel and Nicholas told their dad they did not want to stay with their grandparents and they were very against staying there. They said they didn't like it there. They didn't feel comfortable there. June made them pray on their knees.

They were uncomfortable and on their way in the car, they told their dad, like, we want you to talk about this to grandma. And they were only six. So they were really scared. They didn't want to be there, which makes it even sadder that this happened only a few days later.

So and Daniel, I guess one of the boys had become a vegetarian and was worried that his grandparents would force him to eat meat.

So when they dropped him off at the house on August 5th, the father was like, you know, it'll be OK, you'll be fine.

But obviously, he had no idea he would never see his twin sons alive.

That God can imagine the guilt. No. Yeah. It's just so heavy and awful. Like, how would you ever expect that?

You know, tabloids labeled the murder suicide girl kills twins and parents. This was like wildly sensationalized. I mean, this girl was a model adoption, said girl. This woman, 28 years old, was a model. She was known to be occasionally do drugs. She had just been hospitalized for schizophrenia.

She now murdered her parents and her kids. I mean, it was just like the perfect storm for a small town story.

That's a media buzz right there lately. I mean, just every buzzword, every buzzword is like exactly what she was said.

And so, yeah, it was like mental illness, quote unquote. She went crazy. She killed her own children. She's a model, so she's beautiful. They could use the photos of her, you know. I mean, it's just like extra icky. So they called it suicide girl kills twins and parents. That was kind of the label was given almost immediately. So nine days after the murders, mourners packed the small village church to celebrate the lives of Jun Neville and Sheila.

And then the two young boys funeral was planned for later on.

So I like that they had a separate funeral for the kids. Yeah, I thought that was kind of nice as well. They had their own ceremony.

And also that way you can make it you could make sure there was less risk of there being like media being super disrespectful. And like there could be like, yeah, maybe a more closed family. Yeah, exactly.

That's a good point. And like like I said, the grandparents were really religious. The boys were not religious. Their father was not religious. So he could have their own his own funeral for them separately. Right. While obviously his ex-wife or his ex partner and her family had their own, like, very Catholic funeral or I don't know if it's Catholic, those very religious. So, yeah, it was a nice at least one nice part of this.

So, Jeremy, so he's the one he's the only surviving member of the immediate family. He's the son who's 24. And he arrived to the funeral Jeremy did with his girlfriend, Julie McGiffert and his extended family members. So as this procession is going toward the church, he has a breakdown. He has to be propped up by Julie. He's devastated. He's grieving. There's still photos available of like the funeral and to the world. He appeared completely devastated and emotionally destroyed.

Mm hmm. As you may have guessed, I used to fund keyword here called appeared devastated. Yes, I did.

I did pick that up and I didn't know where we were going, but I liked in terms of storytelling, I was intrigued, so.

Oh, good. I'm glad you're intrigued because I'm about to go straight into that.

So family members, even though on the outside, Jeremy seemed to the media at least very devastated, something wasn't sitting right for family members. So Collin, the father of the twin boys and Sheila's ex partner, claimed as soon as the camera stopped rolling, Jeremy changed.

So in his book, Colin said he that his brother in law started cracking. Jokes and laughing after the funeral, and he later told The Telegraph that Jeremy started making comments about how he couldn't wait to get back to the house with Julie and have some fun.

Oh, and then in the car on the way to the crematorium, he started kind of flirting with Julie, telling her what he'd like to be doing to her later in the afternoon, like in front of the whole family, sir.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Oh, this is a funeral.

His parents and sister's funeral. Oh, my God. And Colin said about this really sick. And I thought, there's something weird going on here. And like, remember, literally, his two six year old boys have just been murdered and his partner, his ex, the mother of his children, it's it's just really kind of off-putting.

So the funeral was broadcast on the news. Obviously, so many people tuned in to watch to see Jeremy's reaction to his family's murder. It went viral for at the time, Andrew, like I said, a whole host of media attention. And the author mentioned earlier, Carol and Lee remembers that she was interviewing different police officers during the case. And one of them even said that his daughter at the time was so interested in Jeremy because of how he looked like he was like a handsome guy.

And the daughter was saying he was saving the newspapers and asking her dad, like like how what is Jeremy like in real life? Oh, my. Because he was now all over the media.

He was his devastated son of this family and feels very sad. Ted Bundy. Yeah, he's like he's like charming in that sick way that draws attention. But within his own circles, people are like, no, this guy's fucked up.

Hmm. So. Let's see, what was Jeremy like? Well, I'll tell you, so like his sister, Sheila, Jeremy was adopted by Joona Neville when he was only a baby. But like I said, it was a different from a different set of parents. He was put up for adoption after his biological mother, a student midwife, had an affair with a married Army sergeant. And they actually later went on to marry and have other children.

Neville and June adopted Jeremy when he was six months old. They sent him to a range of good private schools, private boarding schools. However, Jeremy wasn't happy at any school he went to at one school specifically, he was subject to bullying and a sexual assault. And after his studies, Neville paid.

So now Jeremy's dad, Neville, paid for Jeremy to go traveling in Australia and New Zealand, where he said to have attended a scuba diving course, broken into a jeweller's and boasted about smuggling heroin.

Oh, OK. That escalated very quickly from I heard it like you're showing like a PowerPoint slide of your photos to your family. Like. Like what? How scuba trip.

How I spent my summer, like, you're like third grade frustration. Yeah. Scuba diving. And then all of a sudden it's like bags of heroin. Yeah.

So I know quite an escalation it but so there was like obviously some family drama there and the like I said, they're not the type of family to talk about their skeletons openly. And so even while he was in Australia and New Zealand, his dad had to send over money to kind of bail him out when he got in trouble. So they were not super proud of him for that reason. Meanwhile, their daughter is really, you know, ill.

And there's just a lot of, like, hidden stuff that they tried to keep behind closed doors that is now basically coming out once this murder happens.

So when he returned home from his wonderful trip, his his relaxing vacation and you know it well, you know well, you remember the PowerPoint, the spinning word.

Our nation is pretty it's pretty powerful stuff.

I would say. I would say so for sure. But the clipart of heroin was really fine, I think love.

How many options they provide for that. Yeah, it's fine.

Like Clippy just lets you pick from a whole range. It's like I see you're making a report.

Are you going to be discussing heroin, hard drugs, burglary.

Oh well, maybe you could find this. Like, I have just the thing these millennials are like, what the fuck are you talking about?

I know sorry. Had to be there. So when he returned home in nineteen eighty two, Jeremy's father continued to provide for him. He set him up with cottage a car, gave him a percentage of the family company, even gave him a job where he was paid one hundred and seventy pounds a week. So it seemed like Jeremy was basically being taken care of by his parents, but he had some issues with his family.

So let's just say he he always felt like his sister was loved more than him. He felt like he was always kind of the outcast, even though his parents were, like, continuously bailing him out, supporting him financially. He was he was being loved unconditionally.

Yeah. At least seem I don't know. Yeah.

Seemingly he just had a lot of issues as far as like feeling like he was the second fiddle, so to say to his sister.

So like I said, something wasn't sitting right with Colin, the father of the two boys at the funeral. Jeremy was seen laughing and joking after the burial. He was seen coming down the stairs in a Hugo Boss suit, which he opened and pointed at the label where it says Boss and said, That's me.

Now I'm the boss, I'm the boss. That's no joke.

It's not your Holbein style at a six year old's funeral. Not quite. Maybe you should. Oh, I didn't realise it was that a funeral by bad. OK, that's not a good sign. It's a whole book. It's all we're we're still at the funeral.

I totally removed myself from that as soon as I heard an opportunity to talk about being the boss. I know.

Yeah. I mean, I take it back and be the boss, but he was not the boss.

I take it back. I didn't mean it. OK, sorry. So Colin noticed that in the days after the funeral, Jeremy was wanting to go out partying. He was like spending all this money he had gotten from his parents death. In fact, shortly after the funeral, Jeremy traveled to Amsterdam with his girlfriend, Julie McGiffert, and a friend. He spent a ton of money on weed. He even started selling and giving away his parents property from the farm.

So like he had an antiques dealer come over right away and started selling off their basically like priceless family heirlooms and furniture and his dad's army metals, like not messing around.

He does not give a shit. Wow. He even sold his mom's car. Oh, no, sorry. He gave his mom's car to his girlfriend, Julie's mom, and he tried to sell his dad's car in the newspaper for 900 pounds. He put an ad out like he's just trying to rake in as much cash as possible, buying himself suits, taking vacations. Spending money on drugs like I mean, also look at this, I mean, I don't know if it's because we just hear stories like this every week, but like, how did he not think that that was going to not be a good book?

Yeah, I think he just didn't he just wasn't thinking.

Well, I think he was just one of those guys, one of those murders that we see who just thinks they're invincible. Like he's just had this idea in his head that he he gets to do what he wants because he deserves it and things are going to go his way. And, yes, spoiler alert, they kind of don't eventually.

Otherwise, we wouldn't be able to tell this story, would we? Yeah, well, I was well, I'll tell you about it later.

But, you know, people do get away with shit that's bad police work and that kind of thing. And that was a huge problem. So, I mean, I'll tell you about it.

But he almost not almost. But let's just say there was definitely some possibility that he was going to get away with it like some pretty strong possibility.

So, oh, as the weeks went on, his behavior got stranger. He found photos of his sister, Sheila, like her modeling photos, seminude. He met with a British tabloid and tried to sell the photos.

Oh, my God, yes. And he demanded 20000 pounds for the photos, which were taken, like I said, during Sheila's modeling career.

And the tabloids refused it, surprisingly, but instead published an article called Jeremy Bamford tries to sell nude pictures of fake to Sun newspaper, which I was like, that's a way better story. And it's free. Like honestly now I love the press. Like I love her.

It like there on the right side.

It's very well, to be fair, they wanted to buy it, but he was asking for twenty thousand pounds and they were like, we don't have twenty thousand pounds.

And I mean there's a reason they met to buy the photos of the nude sister who had died.

That's fair.

That's OK. So like they did me. But when he asked for 20000 pounds they were like, are you joking? We don't have 20000 pounds to give you for some photos. And then he said, well, fine, I'm going to bring them to somebody else then. And so then the next day they ran an article like, OK, we can play this our own way.

Let's rephrase then. I don't entirely love the press, but I really respect their sassy choices in terms of it was a great twist.

I didn't I didn't really see it coming. It was a nice volley. It was a nice rally, if you. Yeah. Like a back and forth. Yeah. They came back pretty hard and I thought that was a really great return because I didn't expect it. I was like, because of course they're going to buy the nude photos. If you'd given them the nude photos, they would have run them. But I just love that they went with that instead.

So it's probably worth noting at this point, as we as I like to say a lot, everyone grieves differently. There's no like only one way. Healthy way to grieve, however, is to selling nude photos of your dead sister right after her murder. Probably isn't the most classy way to deal with it.

It's definitely a more extreme way to handle. Yeah, I would say it's not Hoboken style, but I don't I'm not the expert. Look, no, I it's certainly not Hoboken style.

Let me take this moment again to apologize, because I did I admit it. I wasn't paying attention. I should have. I'm sorry. I try to insert not.

You tried. You tried. And I was too ready for the opportunity to say yes.

OK, speaking of volleyball, I really set you up there to spike that. And you kind of we kind of. Yeah.

Miscommunicate where the ball was going. But yeah. So while people do grieve differently, this is pretty much, in my opinion, a particularly callous and quite frankly, somewhat evil in my opinion.

And it wasn't just Colin and their close family who who started to become suspicious. So one police officer had watched the funeral and felt Jeremy's breakdown was staged. He pointed at him on the TV and said that's who really did it. And basically, the whole miniseries is kind of telling the story of this one police officer named Stan, who the whole time is like something is off here, because pretty much from the get go, this was ruled a murder suicide.

And so Stan was the guy who from the beginning kind of said some things off, something's off. We have to take a closer look. He was getting, like, railroaded by the police saying, like, you're going to be fired if you talk about this anymore. We're closing this case, you know, and so. Well, snaps for Stan. I know. And I wanted to bring that up because at the end of the miniseries, they say, you know, like, he never really got the commendation or anything he deserved for for keeping this case going.

Right. But so, yes, nafs for Stan. So Stan, the whole time was like, something's up with this kid. I don't feel good about this, even though basically everyone else at the time was like, keep it down, we've got this handled, don't tell us we're doing a bad job. Hmm. This is clearly an open, shut case. So anyway, it was only when Jeremy's relationship with Julie, his girlfriend, began to crack that the truth started to really come out.

So she got pissed when Jeremy started. Seeing other women, like very openly, I don't know how true this was, but in the miniseries, they kind of had him they had a guy visit from New Zealand that he had supposedly met on his trip that he was lovers with. And so, again, I know that the show was also a drama mini series, somewhat fictionalized. So I don't know how true that is. But it was pretty clear that he kind of didn't give a shit about Julie either.

And I mean, that's not surprising.

I mean, that makes sense to me in terms of, like, this guy already thought he could get away with everything. The real final test was like getting like taking advantage of the person who was probably the closest confidant, right? Yes. And he kept calling her his best friend. I mean, it was very clear that he was using her and, you know, she clearly, like, loved him and he didn't really care.

And was he was was he doing things for her through all this? I care. Like, was she was he buying her stuff, too? Yeah.

So he they went on vacation together to Amsterdam. He had bought her a new dress with some money he had gotten. So she was definitely and in the series as well. I don't know how true this is, but the the officer, the sergeant Stan was very kind of wary of her because she seemed like she wasn't saying something that she knew and seemed kind of like quiet and troubled.

Almost got it. So it was when Jeremy really started fucking around on her that she got pissed. She decided she had to come clean. So a month after the murders on September 7th, 1985, Julie went to the police and said, I have to change my statement. So previously she had told police that Jeremy's version of events was true, that he had phoned her on the night of the murders, worried about his family. But in this new statement, she confessed that Jeremy had told her before the murders that he was planning for a while to kill his family.

He said sorry. She said that Jeremy had told her he wanted to get rid of them all.

And on August six, he had spoken to her about the crimes and the hefty family inheritance of 500000 pounds being up for grabs. And he called her and said that it was tonight or never. And at this point, they're kind of like, so you knew in advance that your boyfriend was going to murder his family and you didn't say anything. And her response was always, I loved him, which is like, this is not a healthy situation.

So is she now considered an accomplice and in trouble herself?

No, because essentially the only thing they got her on were she did lie to the police, but she had also brought them their guy. And I think there wasn't much she was really part of except omitting details or omitting the truth from police. So, yes, she had taken a month before she came forward, but it wasn't enough for them to, like, imprison her basically, and said they just used her testimony in court. So Jeremy was arrested the next day after Julie's new statement was taken.

Obviously, this turned the whole case upside down publicly. People were like, how on earth could it be Jeremy? Like, wouldn't the police have noticed this before if he killed his whole family? Why are we only hearing about this now a month later? Right. Well, behind the scenes, there were some things that the public didn't realize. First of all, the crime scene was never fully secured or properly searched. There was entire bouts of evidence that were never recorded.

Oh, and the police were so convinced that she was a killer that within days they just started destroying the evidence because essentially Jeremy said they said, well, what do you want us to do with this house full of stuff? And he said, oh, it's too painful. I want you to burn it all. So they burned the mattresses, they burned the clothes, they burned everything, genius.

But also like like, I know, terrible. And like, if I was to say that stand guy is laughing in the corner being like, I fucking told you, like, come on. Like, yeah.

And it was actually really horrible to watch because they're burning all this stuff. And it was it was a whole month before this woman came forward. So this whole time stands watching them just burn evidence. And he's like, I know this isn't how it looks like. This isn't how you guys are saying it looks and you're burning all the evidence that we could use to put somebody else behind bars. And so it was like almost it was really frustrating to watch.

Wow. You weren't kidding because I said earlier, like, how how could he possibly get away with this? And you're like, oh, he really almost did. Wow.

Yeah, it's scary. And I mean, if he had played his cards better and not acted like such a fuckin narcissist, he probably could have easily gotten away with it if he hadn't, like, taunted his girlfriend and like Dambrot lovers over to their house.

Yeah. Like basically made out with them in front of her and just mentally, like, anguished her.

And that's right. Not adverb, but, you know, like totally taken advantage of this, like, weird invincibility. He felt he probably could have gotten away with it.

It's terrifying. It's pretty terrifying that there's a lot of crime. I'm sorry. I'm totally interrupting you again. No, no, go. It's wild to think that there's so much crime out there that probably could absolutely be gotten away with if someone just didn't do that one last thing or. Yes. Decide to be decided to have their confidence elevated that much that day.

Yeah, it's like that narcissistic like flew too close to the sun. He felt too powerful, invincible, and it came back to bite him in the ass. But like after a month, he was basically like, I got away with this.

He was vacationing, he was buying himself new suits and they were burning all the evidence.

So it was like, shit, you know, I was going insane. It was really scary to watch.

And again, this is a really small town like you were saying about the Connecticut murder. Like this isn't normal that a whole family is massacred. Right. And this woman had just gotten out of a mental hospital for lack of a better term and had been known by her doctors to be violent and thought her kids had the devil in them. So it was to them pretty cut and dry and totally understandable, too.

Yes. Yeah, I get it. Like I would I wouldn't fight them on that. So, yeah. And remember, like, the house was locked from the inside.

That was a huge point in the case that I will explain later.

But when they got there, the house was locked and wow, that seemed pretty open and shut to them.

But not to stand. Not saying to stand, stand. We stand, stand. We don't. We're the stand stands for the stands of stand.

Welcome where the stand stands for having us tonight.

So anyway, so they started burning mattresses, clothes, etc. pretty immediately. Anything with blood on it. They were burning to help with Jeremy's mental state and his trauma. They burned bedding, carpets, so so as not to upset Jeremy. The rifle that had been found on Sheila's body was moved several times by officers who weren't wearing gloves.

Oh, my God. Not examined for fingerprints until weeks later. There were photos from the crime scene crime scene that showed the gun in multiple locations when, like, nothing should have been touched, obviously. And several pieces of evidence, such as the Bible found with Sheila were never examined at all for fingerprints or anything.

They didn't even examine Jeremy's clothes. Yeah, sorry, no. So we were like caught up enough on technology that, like investigating a crime scene was supposed to have happened, right?

Yeah. I mean, this was the mid 80s. So, like, they should fingerprint's should have been taken.

OK, I'm just I'm just making sure the like, I get it was like a cut and dry case for them. But shouldn't they have still, like, collected something. Yeah. And that was a huge controversy as well.

Just like the officers who arrived on scene didn't secure it properly, which we see so many times.

I mean, even to this day that if they show up and they're like, this was a suicide and that's that and that's the mindset and nothing secured, then it's like from then on, everything's tainted. Yeah. Even if they realized later that they could have been wrong. So, yeah, it was just from the start, it was approached poorly. Right. Right. Yeah.

Uh, Stan, so Jeremy's clothes weren't examined until a month after the murders and officers who dealt with him wrote their statements weeks after the events or weeks after talking to him. Sheilas, Jeunes and Nevilles bodies were released within days of the murders and he jeromy had them all cremated. Oh, my God.

It was so infuriating to watch and remember, they were really religious.

They don't want to be cremated.

That's not what you just saw in the Catholic Church. You get buried. And so excellent point. It was shady in and of itself.

But also, once you burn an entire body, there's not much else you can test for, you know. Right.

So he had them all cremated. And so, of course, you're hearing this. It's like, how had he gotten away with this? Well, like I said, Jeremy was kind of a charming mofo. He sweet talked the police from the beginning. Carol and Lee, who wrote that book I mentioned, interviewed quite a few of the police officers who worked on the case, including some of them that had showed up, shown up that night. And they said that the way Jeremy talked about Sheila, his sister was not very pleasant.

He kind of perpetuated this idea that she was crazy, quote unquote, had breakdowns to prime them because before they even went into the house, he was like, oh, well, my sister just got out of the mental hospital. She's quote unquote crazy. She's dangerous. So, of course, he was priming them from the start to think that Sheila had done something terrible. And that's just kind of what they ran with without winding up other options.

Why not?

She's not. Yikes. Oh, my God.

So what was taken as fact then later came into question? So the first thing that kind of became a turning point in the case was the phone call that Jeremy had made to police on the night of the murder. So when Jeremy had called the police, he didn't call the equivalent of our nine one one, which is 999. He didn't call 999.

He found a telephone book like a Yellow Pages and went and found the local police stations number in the phone book and called that number.

And apparently, at least according to the series underneath it, they had him read it in court. I don't know if this is just a dramatization or what, but in the phone book, apparently underneath the police station.

No, it's as if this is an emergency call. 999. Oh, yeah.

I still called the local police station.

You know, when you call your doctor, like, if this is a medical emergency, please hang up and dial tone or.

Yeah, sort of like that where they're like, don't call your local police station at 3:00 a.m. if someone's if your whole family is being murdered. Right. It's all emergency numbers. Yeah. So for sure.

Suspicious. Yeah. So strange from the get go.

So instead of nine and nine he went through the phone book, found the number of the local police station. He told everybody he thought it would be better to keep it local, whatever that means.

OK, keep it in the family and keep it keep it close to the vest.

Which also didn't make sense because like, you're wasting time looking up, finding the phone book, looking up a phone number.

Right. What do dillydallying, you know, dillydallying, left and right, noodle's all the way to the top. So.

Oh, the other part was that he said his dad had called and said his sister was going berserk with a gun. But they're like, well, if your dad a if your dad called you and said, oh, my God, your sister's going berserk, she's killing us all, wouldn't you call nine nine? Second of all, wouldn't he have called 999?

Right. Is he calling Jeremy to say your sister's going? That's a good point. I was going to say, wouldn't you be able to see phone records of them talking to each other? But that's so much smarter.

It's like so apparently they don't keep phone records of calls made. There was a whole thing about that where they don't keep phone records made within a certain I don't know the details, but that was part of it to where they just weren't able to track that.

But yeah.

So why would he call right now his son to say I'm about to get shot in the head? Yeah, strange.

So now there was the idea of whether Sheila could have used this gun. So Sheila was not experienced with firearms. Callon, she lives. Was interviewed on a podcast called The Murders at White House Farm, and he said, I know Sheila never fired a gun in her life when I found out it was a 22 rifle rather than a shotgun that killed them. Another friend who is a marksman said that if she never fired a gun in her life, she would never have been able to kill someone with a 22 rifle.

You need to be a good shot. And every bullet found its target. There were 23 or something bullets, which would have meant reloading the rifle, which she would never have any, which she would never have had any idea how to do. As soon as that was pointed out to me, I knew she couldn't have done it at all ever. Because what you need to point out to an American audience is that people in Great Britain don't know about firearms.

We don't have gun laws.

It is illegal to carry a gun. Farmers are allowed them to shoot vermin. That's it. So, Jeremy, on the night that the police came, told police, hey, my sister knows how to shoot a gun. We used to do target practice together. And later on down the line, every single person who knew Sheila was like, no way. She didn't shoot any guns. She didn't know how to shoot a gun. And they asked Jeremy, like, didn't you say that?

And he's like, I don't remember ever saying that. Oh. So totally changed his story. Mm hmm. Jeremy's team disputed this, saying, well, she lived on a farm, so maybe she did learn how to care or how to shoot a gun.

But it's just most people who knew her were like, no, like she has a perfect manicure still after this whole murder. Like she didn't shoot 23 bullets right directly into everyone's head. Like, that's just not and especially because the drugs she was on were very drowsy inducing, right?

Yes. Yes, they were.

What are you, McCollom? Tranquilizers. And they also cause her to shake a lot. So she had a lot of trouble even making herself a cup of coffee, lighting a cigarette, let alone like she's not going to load a gun 20 plus times.

Yeah. And like, shoot people directly at their target, you know, so, yeah, it was it was really not likely.

She also fun fact was not wearing a dress with pockets, so she would have had to somehow store the bullets that she was carrying around the house. Yeah. And shooting with two hands.

So also kind of unlikely. So like I said, on top of all that, the medication she was on me, her very unsteady, shaky, they were tranquilizers. It seemed more and more likely that in her state she would have, even if she had gone, quote unquote, crazy or had a psychotic episode, that she would have even been able to physically pull this off. So the next staggering piece of evidence in my mind is that Sheila had been shot twice.

Right. So twice in the head.

Oh, so she OK? Yeah, she didn't do it.

So very, very, very unlikely that somebody who had shot themselves once in the head would then be able to shoot themselves again in the head. However, the coroner did say he has seen it before. If you miss and you know, it's more like a flesh wound than actually through the spine or the brain. So it is possible. So for a while they just went with it because the coroner said, I've seen it twice before. So it is possible technically.

However, now this is very OK, actually, I don't want to say it yet because it's just a really crazy fact. I'm going to get to it when it's more of a surprise.

OK, so on top of all of this, Sheila's body wasn't found with anyone else's blood or residue on it, which if she killed four other people, you would think she would have had at least some of their blood on her. So now there's the fact of the silencer. So if you think about it, if somebody is shooting the family members and the boys are still in bed, it was sort of like, how is he shooting all these people?

We're sorry, how is Sheila shooting all these people without waking anybody up?

But the gun had not been found with a silencer on it. And strangely enough, Neville, the grandfather, had always kept the silencer on the rifle.

So the cousins of the family were kind of like, well, this is odd because if she had been shooting everybody, they would have woken up. And this silencer was always with the gun and now it's gone. Right. So the cousins went digging around. And on August 10th, they found in Neville's office the silencer.

Oh, it was found in a gun cupboard and it had blood on it and a gray hair. So they called the police. They called Stan. And Stan came over and they were like, look what we have. And he was like, oh, God, you guys have been touching this hand.

They're like, yeah, Stan is like mother fucker every time. You kidding me? Every time.

And it gets worse because they give him the thing and he's like, I didn't bring any evidence bag. So they he puts the silencer in a paper towel tube and tapes up the ends because like, sure, you don't want to touch it.

But the gray hair fell off on the way to my gas station, so they lost the hair. And at first they're like, well, this is a hunting rifle. There might be blood on it. It's not that abnormal. But they tested the blood and found that it was sheilas. Mm. And remember, this is on the silencer they found in a gun cupboard. Right. So what that means. Is she would have had to shoot her family, shoot herself with the silencer, taken the silencer off gun and put it in the gun cupboard, gone back upstairs and shot herself a second time without the silencer.

Right.

So at first, everyone's like, well, how do we even use that as an argument? Like, what does it mean?

Well, fun fact.

If you put the silencer on the gun, it adds quite a bit of length.

And they determined that I think she five foot six or seven, if she had held the gun to her throat, to her chin with the silencer on it, she would not have been able to reach the trigger. Interesting. And so it was only once the silencer was removed that it could be placed in a position where she would be able to shoot herself. Got it in the head. Got it. Got it.

So it's almost like either she, for whatever reason, removed the silencer, put it away in a cupboard, came back and shot herself or somebody else just did it, shot her, then said, oh, I want to stage this to look like she killed herself, but I need to remove the silencer. So it looks like she could actually pull it off.

Right. So Bamber Jeremy, he told the police that his ex, Julie, was lying because she was jealous because he had broken up with her and she was just basically they framed it as a woman scorned. And to be fair, it wasn't a good look for her because it had been a month. She hadn't said a word against him. Now he dumps her, goes off with another person, and suddenly she comes to the police like he did it.

Not a great look, at least not at all, for the defence was very easily able to take that and be like, oh, you're just jealous.

And this is the 80s. You know, they were able to turn her into kind of like this crying, dramatic, desperate girl who just wanted to get back at her boyfriend who left her.

Oh, my gosh. So not a super good look, but she was their main witness. So they basically had to go on her word and prove that Jeremy had done it, not Sheila. So Jeremy was released on bail on September 13th, and pretty immediately he went to Central Park for a vacation where he partied it up, hooked up with people, had the time of his life. And he returned to England on September 29th, where he was arrested and charged pretty immediately with the murders.

So Jeremy's trial began on October 3rd six. It lasted eighteen days.

And basically, the prosecution argued that Jeremy, motivated by hatred and greed, had left his family's farm around 10 p.m. on August six, 1985, after having dinner with his family to drive home later.

Sometime in the early hours of the morning of August 7th, he had returned to the farm on his mother's bicycle, which he had borrowed a few days earlier, taking a back route that avoided main roads. He approached the farmhouse from the back and entered the house through a downstairs window, took the rifle with the silencer attached, went upstairs, shot his mother, June, in her bed.

She actually had managed to walk a few steps before collapsing and dying. He then shot his dad, Neville, in the bedroom too. But Neville was able to get downstairs where he and Jeremy fought in the kitchen before Bamber, for Jeremy shot him four times, twice in the temple and twice to the top of his head. He had also shot Sheila in the main bedroom next to her mother and had shot the children in their beds as they slept. And that was done last again.

He had the silencer on, according to their argument. Jeremy then arranged the scene to make it appear like Sheila was the killer. He discovered that she couldn't have reached the trigger with the silencer attached. So he removed it, returned it to the gun cupboard. Then just like sprinkled in a little religious theme by putting a Bible on her, which, you know, she had that history of having delusions of the devil.

So he really played right into that and made it look as though she were in that kind of a headspace when she committed this murder. Yeah. So after removing the kitchen phone from its hook, he left the house via a kitchen window.

They think he may have showered first and then he was able to bang the window from the outside. This is what they learned later so that the catch dropped back into position and you couldn't open it.

So the cousin figured this out and she was like, well, who else would know this, like trick about the house unless you grew up here? Right. Essentially, you could climb out and then, like, bang it so that the latch fell and locked the window. Right. So that's how they were able he was able to make it look as though the house had been locked from the inside.

He then cycled back to his house on his mother's bicycle, called his girlfriend Julie, then called the police from the phone book at three twenty six a.m. to say he had just received a frantic call from his father and to create a delay before the bodies were discovered. He, like I said, hadn't called 999. He drove really slowly to the farmhouse and then he told police that his sister was very slow. Here with guns and was dangerous so that they would be reluctant to enter, right and would call for backup before they entered the house.

So the prosecution further argued that Jeremy had not received a telephone call from his father at all, because the way they figured this out, timing wise, is that Neville would have had to would have been shot in the mouth before this alleged phone call took place. Got it. So they were like, well, when your father called, did it sound like he had been shot in the mouth?

Right. He was like, I don't remember. And they were like, this is really shady. Like if you're saying your dad called, well, we just found out he'd been shot in the face like twice and right in the mouth. So this seems very unlikely that your dad called you on top of everything else.

Yeah. So on top of that, there was no blood on the kitchen phone. And if he had been shot in the mouth and the face and he was probably would have done something.

Yeah. Do you think there would have been some blood?

And interestingly enough, they actually found June kind of crawling toward the other end of the bedroom. And at first they were like, this is so weird. Why would she have crawled in that direction? What's over here? What was she trying to get to? Well, they found the phone downstairs in the kitchen unplugged. But when they look closer at the nightstand, they realized there was like a square where the sun hadn't bleached the table. And it turns out the phone was usually on the nightstand and someone had removed it from the bedroom before shooting her.

So she was trying to climb to to get to the phone. Yes. So sad.

I know. And so there was no phone there. It was instead said downstairs with no blood on it. And another fun fact is that when he called police, he said, oh, my dad called and the phone line went dead or the phone hung up. And then I called police. Well, they found out that the line had never been interrupted. And if the line is still on the hook or if it hadn't been interrupted, apparently the person on the other end of the line said Jeremy in this case would not have been able to dial out until that phone had been OK, if that makes sense.

So essentially, that line had been kept open, even though he said, like, oh, somebody I don't know, I hung up the phone or there was a shot and the phone died. But it turns out he wouldn't have even been able to make a phone call for like another 10 or 15 minutes once that call had ended, if the phone hadn't been hung up.

So where are we? Sorry, I'm getting, like, all worked up good. The wildest story.

There's so many strange facts that didn't add up.

So but he had been shot in the mouth before this alleged phone call. So Jeremy's defense maintain that the witnesses who said Jeremy disliked his family or lying or had misinterpreted his words, Jeremy kept insisting he loved his sister and he loved his parents. But they said his defense also said Julie had lied about Jeremy's confession because she was jealous. No one had seen Jeremy cycle to and from the farm. There were no marks on him, no blood on him, no clothing was ever recovered that had blood on it.

And finally, they said he didn't drive to the farm as quickly as he could have because he was afraid.

I was like, OK, a defense or like an argument. That's OK.

Sure. So on October 28, after deliberating for more than nine hours, the jury had not come to a consensus. So the judge agreed to take a majority ruling, which basically means ten out of the 12 jurors have to agree on a ruling.

And basically everyone was like, well, shit, because this means the odds are not good, because if ten out of the 12 jurors have to say that he's guilty for it to go through, otherwise he's off the hook.

So amazingly, shockingly, the jury, 10 of the jurors found Jeremy guilty. The majority of tended to, which was the minimum required for conviction. And the judge sentenced him to five life terms with the recommendation that he serve a minimum of 25 years. The judge said your conduct in planning and carrying out the killing of five members of your family was evil, almost beyond belief. In December of 1994, Home Secretary Michael Howard told Jeremy he would remain in prison for the rest of his life.

And since his conviction, he's sought appeals in 1989 and 1994 for claiming that the trial judge was biased against him.

OK, good one.

But it was denied both times the Essex House and the site of the murders was not demolished, as you might expect, of a terribly gruesome crime scene. But instead, it has now been turned into the home of a classic car rental company.

Oh, so fancy that you want to order a Bentley for the day.

I guess I know where to send you. We certainly know a place. I know a place. And maybe a ghost will join you on the right. Right, right. Right, right. Yeah. It's probably haunted as hell. Mm hmm. So the case has recently gained traction because it's the subject of this mini series I mentioned called White White House Farm or in the U.S. It's called the murders at White. House Farm was released last year. It's now available on HBO, I binged the whole thing.

I stayed up to like three am watching it so good and so creepy. And it just puts I mean, you know, they say, like, sure, some of this was dramatized, some names were changed because, you know, for sake of privacy. But just the way they present this whole storyline is so compelling and well done. I just I highly recommend it. There's a lot in the six got.

How many? Probably like five hours worth of TV. And so there's a lot in there that obviously I was not able to cover, but it's really well done.

So until this day, Jeremy Bamber, who's now 60 years old, maintains his innocence as he serves his lifelong sentence in Yorkshire. Colin, the father of the two twins, went on to train and practice in the field of bereavement and psychotherapy, which is really cool. Wow. Yeah.

And he continues a successful career as a sculptor and a potter. Hmm.

And also in 1999, he remarried and started a new family. So she was able to kind of find some peace and closure. But that is the story of the White House farm murders and some fucking asshole named Jeremy. Piece of work.

Whoa. Wow. No. Are you. It's not horrible. That was a good story, though, like you told it very well. Thank you. I felt kind of bad because I was like, I don't know, after watching that series, it was so traumatic.

And obviously they turn it so like you don't expect things, but, you know, it's well, it's harder to tell in a way.

It's also hard to use it. It's also hard to tell, too, because if there really is that many hours of information, you feel bad that you're not giving all the information. So, yeah.

And also on that note, I didn't know what was added for dramatic effect and what was real.

So I didn't want to throw in facts that I didn't find elsewhere in my research without confirming that this actually happened.

And it wasn't, you know, just added for effect. But, yeah, everything that I mentioned here was pretty much what happened.

Pretty fucked up stuff. Wow.

To murder your whole family, I mean, it reminds me the Menendez brothers of like, do you know that story at all?

Yeah, yeah. I remember also like two years ago, like they came back there was like a whole documentary about them. The people freaked out about. Right. Yeah, I think yeah.

I think it's on HBO.

They did a series on them because their two brothers who killed their parents and got away with it for a while. Right. And then they. Yeah, yeah. They, they murdered their parents. I mean I'll cover it someday, but yeah, they murdered their parents and then like bought cars and clothes and just very, very similar.

Not sneaky behavior. Not subtle or discreet elaborate behavior. Yeah. Yeah. Apparently Jeremy told his girlfriend at one point I should have been an actor.

Oh I know. Isn't that icky.

Rose. God, what a piece of shit.

Well thank you for telling it. And I'm also I am apologizing again to the cake boss.

That was not Hoboken style of me to the cake boss for when I mentioned the the I'm apologizing to the people who died at the funeral. Yes.

That too. Let me just about everyone because that was just trash of me.

Why don't we just give a blanket apology to everyone ever. Maybe we should do that at the beginning, middle and end of every episode. Maybe our episode could just be one massive apology start to finish.

Let's just do a whole episode or we just say we're sorry for an hour and a half.

We layer it, put a beat under there. Yeah, you get it. You get it. Jazzy Well, thank you, everyone, for listening. Again, if you are a member, if you were once a former member of the London cults, we are now members of the Society Society Committee.

Shut the fuck up. Do you know how many people are probably screaming that on the other end of the day? I got there everyone. I got there. I got there. Holy shit.

If we if anybody tweeted us, hey, you missed an opportunity. We know you didn't listen to the whole episode.

We'll talk to you anyway. We will now be joining us. The society. I'm very excited about, excited about it. And yeah, you can check out everything on our website and that's our dotcom. You can send your topics, suggestions there, your story submissions there for our listeners episodes. We put it on the first of every month. Also, please join our Patreon. We're doing some fun stuff. I also I'm doing Teach Time Tuesday, London Fog Friday.

We're doing a sneak peak Saturday.

Lovegood a little alliteration and the literati and and the next week or two, if you are a member of Patriot, you can expect the newest escape room. So that'll be super fun.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's about it.

I think that's everything. I'm about to go get the next up. Hey. All right. And that's Hoboken style.

That's Hoboken style baby.

And that's why we drink. Yeah.

One day we should finish up with and that's Hoboken style baby. Oh that would have been good. OK, and the. So to hear the.