Hello, everyone, this week's guest is singer songwriter and musician Norah Jones. I've always loved Nora's music and now I can tell you she's even cooler than you imagine. Her seventh album, Pick Me Up Off the Floor, came out a few months ago and I haven't stopped listening to it. After talking with Norah, I'm joined by a dating expert, coach and creator of level online matchmaking April Buya. I think you'll find that April is incredibly insightful and has some great practical advice on how to really connect even during these strange times.

Before we start the episode, I'd like to thank all of you so much for your support, your feedback and simply just listening to the podcast. It really does mean the world to me. Please keep sending us your questions and telling us your stories. Just go to unqualified dotcom and look for the link. Now, here's Nora.

Ladies and gentlemen, you are listening to Unqualified with host unfairest. How are you? Oh, Nora, I don't know, how are you? I'm fine.

I don't know either.

I don't know what's happening anymore. Don't you feel like it's difficult to articulate our emotions? Yes, because everything feels a little raw right now. Yeah, it's hard.

And I just feel like it's all very up and down. Yes. For everyone. Even if they're lucky enough to not being evicted right now or know people are going through so much. So, Nora, my heart is racing right now because I'm talking with somebody that I really admire. So forgive me if I'm a little stumbly, but I cannot thank you enough for being here.

Oh, thank you. I'm so excited and I get nervous to you. Do I get more nervous to talk than I do to sing? I love that.

I was reading the piece in The New York Times where you spoke about that and understanding that you're an intimate person. And I think that's also why I got pretty nervous, because I talked to a lot of stand ups. And it's not easy navigation, but it's not the same as navigating a world with music that while I appreciate and love, I don't know anything about.

But you don't need to to enjoy it. Are you sure? No, you don't need to know anything about it to enjoy it. Right. That's the good part.

I like that philosophy. But I also want to know as a curious person, like I would love to be able to sing and I would love to understand sort of the crafting of a song which maybe our listeners don't want to know how the sausage is made, but maybe it's the same way like an ending of a film or something. Anyway, please understand, Nora, I am coming to this interview completely unqualified.

No, actually, I don't necessarily feel qualified all the time. That's, I think, the magic of art. Right. You know, sometimes you don't even know what's happening. Just happened. Stars sort of align. Yeah, OK.

I kind of wanted to ask you about your first love human or objects both.

Well, I grew up being very boy crazy. Me too. And I was in love with everyone projects. I grew up with single mom. I didn't see my dad often and maybe that had something to do with it. I don't know. But I was boy crazy from the start and I really loved Keanu Reeves for a long time.

I mean, he's handsome, he's handsome, but he's also a thief kind of guy. I don't know. I just love the woman of my real first love was in high school.

My first boyfriend was a drummer. We went to a really cool performing arts high school. We played music together. And so we connected on a lot of levels.

Now that you brought that up, do you think that you could unfairly stereotype a musician like if they play bass drum, like, could you define a personality roughly by the instrument that they play?

I mean, you definitely can a little bit like would you tell me to avoid the bassist? No, that's the solid foundation. And I've dated one for a long time. I've dated two drummers basses. Anyway, I tried dating another musician once, but I just always have been with musicians for the most part. I would say like a lead guitar player or a trumpet player might be a little more wanting to be in the spotlight singing or a singer, you know.

But that's a total stereotype. It doesn't necessarily mean it's always true.

You don't like to stereotype? No, I don't like to stereotype. But I mean, bass players aren't usually grabbing the mic from you. You know, not truly.

My heart is racing right now. I cannot thank you enough.

Did you have coffee? Yeah. Oh, no.

Can I ask you a series of life questions? OK, ok, I'm ready.

If you could live anywhere in the world, where would it be? Oh gosh.

I've thought about this a lot.

I forgot the crucial part. If you could live anywhere in the world for a year, where would it be?

Oh, OK, that's easier. I've always loved Barcelona, but now I think I just want to live in the middle of nowhere on an ocean somewhere.

So wait, I wanted to ask you why you love Barcelona. But then what's more intriguing is your shift into isolation, because that is something that I can really relate to. Yeah.

I mean, I love Barcelona, but I've also loved it for a very long time. I think the first time I went on tour, it was probably eighteen years ago. And I remember the last few times I've gone, it's so much more crowded and all the stuff I used to go to, they were touristy things anyway, but there was a line to get in or I couldn't even get in because I didn't buy a ticket in advance. So, you know, the world is becoming more and more crowded.

And right now, especially with everything that's going on, I think I just would rather be in the middle of nowhere.

How do you think that Corne? A teen has it tapped into a comfort level. I don't want to define it for you. Yeah, I think for me, I live in Brooklyn, New York. We have young kids. They're four and six, and one's quarantine started. We realized that we never really went out and did anything the last few years anyway. We didn't enjoy all that New York has to offer because we were in a different phase of our life and all the friends we used to go out and see music and go to bars with, they'll have kids.

None of us ever go out anymore. So I think we were kind of prepped for it a little bit. But it made me miss my old life from 10 years ago.

You mean just being in Brooklyn and not having kids, just not having it just made me miss the like.

Oh, wow. I wonder if I'll ever get to do that again. But also, I don't really want to go out either. I feel like I've been kind of a hermit for the last few years anyway. You know, I work and I play gigs when I have to, but when I'm home, I'm just home. Even my kids are kind of hermits. They don't like to go out on the weekends before covid and now they're just like wearing their pajamas all day.

Are your kids playing music? They try with us and it's really fun. Our son is six and a half and he finally listened enough to learn how to play a backbeat. And that was really exciting. So now he can kind of play a beat on the drums and we can play. And that's pretty fun.

Nora, I feel like your son might be kind of a shitty musician. He's six and a half. He might be. He just learned a backbeat just like that.

Well, that's something people will always ask if our kids are like musical and like, I don't know, they don't listen enough to learn anything. They think they know it all, but we don't know anything yet.

OK, what is your favorite ice cream flavor? Not really a dessert person, but I feel like the only times as an adult that I've gotten into ice cream was when I was pregnant and it was always just chocolate, vanilla and Neopolitan sometimes because that reminds me of my grandma when I was little. Kind of boring, but that's what I like.

It's not boring because I think ice cream is nostalgia. Yeah, my son says the same thing. He weirdly likes Neapolitan and I have no idea where he got that from.

He know my grandma, my two favorite curse word. I say fuck a lot and I try really hard not to, but my kids have started picking up curse words and I heard them the other day talking secretly. I was around the corner. They didn't know I was listening and they were trading curse words. OK, now you say and she said shit and then he would say, damn it. And I was cracking jokes actually made me think of you.

And you were like, fucking shut up. I was like, fucking stop. Yeah, no, yeah.

I really got to stop because they are picking it up. I'm so with you. I just thought it was so cute.

They were trading curse words.

But the problem is that when we tell them to not say it like we empower them, it's like we're giving them little bullets for them to be like that.

You said that.

Well, yeah. And also it doesn't help that when they say it, it's so funny that I start laughing and they think it's funny and that it's OK. And I'm like, no, it's not OK. It's just too funny.

My son, who's now eight and he's a little bit over it, I think I told him when he was six that he could swear once a month.

Oh, that's a good idea.

He had to choose it wisely. OK, then he could own the word. Yeah, OK. Did you have a favorite book, something that ignited a fire within you?

I loved that book. She's come undone by Wally Lamb.

I haven't thought about the book forever, but I love the great book.

I think I read it twice when I was a teenager, which I don't usually reread things. I loved that book.

I did too. It felt so human. Yeah, she had it hard, but it also made me feel like, oh, well, don't you think that it was also interesting that it was written by a man?

I did think that there was a very believable, fleshed out female character. You know, I read that it like seventeen or eighteen, but I think in my memory it's like nineteen hundred pages.

Yeah, it's really long. I do remember that like a brick.

It was so good. And for our listeners that don't know, it is about a woman who is struggling with weight in a very, very human way. It's a very intimate book and it is great. But to me, knowing that it was written by a man made me believe that there were men that understood, because at that age you're getting looked at for the first time as you walk down the street, check it out and you have no idea how to digest that.

And it's intriguing and it makes you angry, all of those things. So for a man to understand a vulnerable perspective of a young woman vulnerable, that's the word.

Yeah, she's very vulnerable. All right. I love that answer. OK, what was your first boss like? Oh, my gosh. I work in a French bakery in high school and everybody was really sweet, but the thing that actually comes to mind is my first gig, which I had when I was in high school, and it may have been before the French bakery. I don't even know. I went to an arts high school so people would always call looking for kids to come play their events for cheap.

And this woman wanted a jazz trio and the school let us borrow equipment to go do these gigs. It was really cool. It was some auction event for something and she wanted us to play like old jazz standards so people would dance. So we did. And it was not only my first gig being paid, but it was my first time putting a band together. I had to pay the band, being a band leader and being like the boss of the gig.

But they kept doing an auction, so we kept taking a break. And then at the end she got really mad at me in the hallway and she was like, you kept taking breaks.

Nobody danced like, Oh, I felt so bad after that.

I wonder if that felt like early discouragement.

Oh, yeah. I mean, also, I didn't know what I was doing in terms of music yet either, but it was more like, oh, I get to be a grown up and do this thing and then feeling completely leveled like the weight of responsibility of doing a job or something and then failing.

You guys kept taking a break and thinking brakemen.

You know, I was a really straight laced kid. I never did anything. I never drank, never did drugs. But I felt like she probably thought I was just some, like, stoner like, I don't know. I just felt so like on top of things and then so confused.

So if you weren't like an impulsive kid in that way, like I was, were you impulsive with love?

Did you fall into love or crushes easily.

Oh yes. Constantly. You were romantic. Oh, so romantic.

I mean, not in high school and high school. I was really focused on music. I still had all the crushes. But in junior high I had all the binders. I went through an old yearbook recently. I like Marks next to every boy I thought was super cute. He's so funny. I was super into boys.

Me too. My mom hated it. Yeah, she was always like, you cannot be boy crazy. You'll never get anywhere in life. And I was like, No, I'm not Mom, but of course I was. You were.

You're figuring out your place in the world. You want to be like, totally.

I'm forty three now, so maybe not so much, but I would fall in love with my girlfriends, the pretty exciting ones that made the world feel larger. Yeah. That's normal. And then they would stab me in the back.

Those girls can be the worst. I know.

OK, what was your living arrangements when you first lived on your own? It was the dorm room. Does that count? How was dorm experience? I lived in the dorm. I loved it.

But I also went to the University of North Texas to study jazz piano. And so I was in like the artsy dorm with all the musicians and all the articles. It was fun. I loved it.

You moved to Texas when you were young. That must have been jarring.

I loved growing up in Texas was a good place to grow up. Why? Because we lived near Dallas and maybe it was just my mom, but we also had the resources. My mom always took me to do stuff. Art museums, the opera musicals. She took me to everything cool. She also has no lack of energy. She's not a stiller, so she had the energy to do all that. I love that.

But why did you and your mom move to Texas? I'm not completely sure, but I think because my mom is from Oklahoma and she went to college in Dallas and I think she was having a hard time in New York. Her dad was sick, so she wanted to be closer to him. All right.

Now we're going to get into some stickier questions. Are you going to make me cry? I always make people cry.

What talent or ability would you most like to have? Oh, that's a good question. What's your answer to that? Well, I wouldn't say this to you, but I would like to be able to sing.

OK, well, yeah, but I also would really love the ability to fluently speak another language.

Oh, God. Me too. That is a good answer. I feel like it would give me a better understanding of people.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I would love to be able to just go into a room or a party or a bar and be able to just talk to people.

So maybe I'm just lonely right now because there is. But I've always been kind of awkward and I always overthink it. When you're meeting strangers, it just feels weird, I guess. I wish I could just be completely at ease. I know, but I mean, we all want that.

I don't know if that's a talent or just blissful ignorance, especially when if you're known, you know, to any degree for something, people are intrigued because I feel like so symbiotic with you. With this, I overanalyze how people are reacting to me. Yes. And then that makes me feel egotistical, like I'm not really listening to what they're saying. Instead, I'm just do they like me? I hope they like me.

And those things, they rumble around in my head all the time.

Yeah. But they're all doing the same thing. Probably I'm not too bad in the moment. It's more the after the fact.

Sometimes I'll just wake up in the middle of night and think of something I said ten years ago to some random person that doesn't even remember it. And I'm like, what the fuck is wrong with me?

But I think it's normal. We all have those feelings. I want to change my answer, though, to OK, I wish I could be comedians. They're just so cool. Even though the hard existence.

Nora, you are talking about one fucked up career being a highly successful musician. No, you have to go to like a librarian or oceanography. I don't want to do that, though.

Your dream job cannot be a stand up. But I hear what you're saying, though, the idea of being naturally boisterous. All right. What is a trait you dislike in others?

When people know someone you're close to or you feel comfortable with, they ask you a question and then they don't really listen to the answer. And then I start rambling and then I can tell that they're not listening and then shut down. And it's also something I've done. I find that things I don't like about other people are often qualities that I see in myself.

Yeah. Do you think it's because we aren't just interested in other people's experiences? I don't know if there's a shift or not an attention span. I definitely think there's a shift because of all our devices. I mean, I know that I found myself multitasking more in the last couple of years thinking, oh, well, it's cool, I'm getting it all done and feeling really good about it and then realizing, oh, no, this is horrible. I'm just kind of like living half way through everything and not completely engaged.

I'm so with you. And it makes me kind of flushed because I'm embarrassed because I recognized my own guilt in this. Oh, we all do it. So that's why I recognize Nora.

I had no idea that I liked to puzzle, which is putting little pieces of cardboard together.

It's embarrassing. It's mortifying. Yesterday I was trying to redo a puzzle about troll dolls that I had already done. I have a puzzling obsession. I think that's cool. It's embarrassing. Is that something you can focus on? You know, you're the only person I'm supporting your puzzle addiction.

I'm just going to say it.

Thank you. But getting into the pattern of not being able to focus, because I also at the same time listen to a podcast, we're making coffee. I'll be like doing three things. Yes. And maybe we can comfort ourselves with sort of the blanket of these times.

I do a puzzle man. I wish I had a thing like that. Honestly, my thing is music, and it really is kind of the only time I can shut my brain off and do one thing, because when I'm playing, not thinking about dinner or my task list, I'm just in the moment these days I feel like that's the only time I'm completely uncluttered in my brain. I'm glad I have the.

What does it mean to release your seventh full length album during this time? It feels like the same, I would imagine, as writing your seventh novel.

Not quite. Definitely not. OK, I guess for me, music is not painful or hard to create, and that's why I like it so much. And now certainly there's times where you have to work harder or a song is harder to finish sometimes.

I think the best songs sort of come quickly and you're tapped into some kind of a raw nerve that things are coming through fast and certainly all the years of practicing work is all in there. But it's like a lightning bolt and it's just coming out when you're writing or even when you're recording a great take, you know, it's just something about that take was magical. But the next take the same song where I got all the words right and I played it better, doesn't have the same magic.

I like that. It's just that little magical thing that happens, you know, and then sometimes you have a magical song idea, but you can't quite finish it. And then it's painful and it's hard. It's like pulling teeth. But I don't usually spend too much time on stuff because if it's so hard that I just can't finish it, I just don't finish it and then move on to something else. For me, it's fun.

So how many unfinished songs do you have in your repertoire and how many would you actually like to see to accomplish?

This is clearly a non musician asking you that now.

It's a great question. And the truth is, I don't have that many unfinished songs because I think the way I approach music and the way I finally learned to approach songwriting, which evolved over time because I used to have a lot of unfinished things and I used to be like so in my head about songwriting, because I came to songwriting pretty late and we only wrote two of my songs on my first album, which was my big hit. And so after that, I felt very self-conscious about really diving into songwriting.

What I realized over the years is that you can always finish a song doesn't mean it's going to be a great song. You can always finish it. Actually learn that working with Danger Mouse on an album I made in 2000, 11 or 12, and it was such an amazing experience because we'd have like this really cool idea. And it's really cool parts and a cool melody, but only like a few lyrics. And I was like, oh my God, how are we going to finish this?

And he said, we're just going to finish. It's not a big deal. We'll come back to next week. And I was like, oh, OK.

And you know what? He was right. And that was kind of a big moment for me where it all clicked in.

You know, it's not rocket science.

I think there have been a few moments in my life where it's like you need the emotional completion, like for self, which the audience doesn't necessarily need, and learning to accept that idea. It's like, OK, the third act, it has to be satisfactory, but it doesn't have to heal myself as an actor.

Exactly. But it might do something life changing for someone in the audience. I mean, Scary Movie four is a great example.

You my life. I think that's a good point because I think because I can control what I put out, it's not like being in a movie where you don't have any control after you do your part, but I always try to finish it and by the end of recording it and trying all the avenues that I needed to try, I just don't like it. I just don't have to do anything with it.

Normally I follow up what is a trait you dislike and others with?

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Oh, actually, it's kind of funny. I think it's funny. I was singing a couple of songs with this Bob Dylan tribute show, so I was just singing. I wasn't playing piano and he was playing organ and he was playing the cool part on just like a woman with the organ to go. And I kind of looked back and I guess I winked at him and he's like, Oh, cool. She winked at me, you know, we'll hang out or whatever.

But then the more he got to know me, he realized I like my eyes a lot.

I have a little bit of a nerve.

So I think I was just blinking. I just turned my head from the audience to blink so they wouldn't see me. That's really sweet.

You think I'm interpreting this as, like extreme flirtation and I love her already. And now it's like what? I'm the chosen one.

But it was kind of funny. So then what happened?

Well, that was the first time I met him. I don't think I felt like myself till the next tribute show. And then that time we clicked and we hung out all night and that was it.

That's romantic that you, like, clocked each other and then there was some time. Yeah. All right. What is your favorite rainy day movie?

You're going to laugh, but it's just friends and you're in it. Really? Yeah, it's not. It is because of you. Because you're awesome in it. You're hysterical in that movie.

You crack me up so much. But I also it makes me want to move to a small town in New Jersey and be a schoolteacher and live a simple life. And I love that movie. It makes it look so appealing. And you crack me up. Crack me up. I've dreamt of doing a Samantha James.

I need to play her again. Really? She was just the fucking best and worst.

Yeah, she was so funny. Oh, you should do an album. Norah, this is genius. I will produce it. I'm not sure I'm the right type of musician to produce the Samantha James album away with me.

Yeah, exactly. Oh my God. You're so ready with the toothpaste. Yeah, I made my husband and we had two guy friends over for Christmas. They stay over every Christmas we have like that's our little Christmas thing. But I made them all watch that movie because none of them have seen it. We were trying to figure out a good movie to watch that the kids come in and out on.

And we all were like hungover and lazy. I think you've got to watch you've got to watch it. And they loved it. It was so fun.

You're giving me so much joy. I was able to save a few key elements of that wardrobe because the wardrobe was just incredible and the character was atrocious, was amazing. Or I might not let this go, though. I think that maybe this is the sequel. Somehow it's the spin.

There should definitely be a sequel involves you. So you have to agree to this right now live on air.

Man, I'm always down for fun. That would be incredible.

If Samantha is just totally adoring and demure in front of you, she's like, I'm going to do a jazz album and I would be incredible.

OK, well, hopefully we can start it here. All right. What qualities do you look for in a friend?

I don't know if it's a quality, but the ability to just pick up where you left off. We all have busy lives and I have friends. I don't talk to you for a year or two sometimes, but then when I do, it's not like any time has passed. We play catch up, but we're still in the same connection level. There's no weird like you didn't call me because those kinds of people don't last. We all are too scattered.

I know.

And as women, we already are living with so much guilt. Wait, yes, I'm with you very much. But I struggle with my female friendships in general because I've always been very like I have one best friend that I'm kind of in love with. As I've gotten older, it's shifted, but it made me feel very alone in life, like there was a secret code to a sorority or something that I didn't understand and I wanted to be a part of and was envious of, but I didn't know how to socialize.

There was another language that I just didn't know.

I think it's interesting. I wonder why. I mean, I know growing up I didn't have a ton of girlfriends. I would always have like one friend. But as an adult, I have a lot of very good girlfriends. Actually, I was thinking about it recently. Yeah. How many wonderful women I'm friends with.

I want to be your friend, Nora. On what occasion do you lie?

Well, I read something recently. We don't ever lie to your kids, really, but I try not to.

I feel like this is a question that like as I get older, you know, I'm forty three. I still have parents. Sometimes I lie to them. Yeah, exactly. But for the most part. I feel like I'm going to get caught by press or something. Oh, yeah. Seth Rogan is saying that he lies to the press and I don't think I could get away with it. I don't think I'm great at it.

And the risk of getting caught. Yeah.

Feels much more embarrassing than actually telling an uncomfortable truth. Yeah.

Life seems so stressful and not worth it when he says he the press. Is he just messing with them because that seems fun.

Yeah, I think that's probably because I don't think that he has a lot to hide either. He's. Yes. All right. What is your greatest extravagance?

I like taking bath, Nora.

That cannot be your greatest extravagance. Although as a mother to two young children, I walk that back.

I'm sorry. I love it. I'm not saying it's the fanciest thing I do. I think I'm just saying it's the thing I like to do most. You know, I spend a lot of time in hotels, so I will say I love a good hotel, hot tub and steam room and stuff. But that's just being on tour.

It's just like I think, too, though, those moments of aloneness, especially with young kids. I mean, I used to drive my thin hair for like an hour and a half. So truly, I was just like, I'm dry. My hair can't come in to dry, my hair still drying it.

It is interesting, the whole being alone thing with kids. I used to be I don't know if I was afraid of being alone. I was just not completely comfortable being alone. So I would always call a friend that's such a weight and not being alone. You always kind of. But now that I have kids, it's like, oh yeah, I used to be afraid of this. This is my jam. Now I just want to be alone.

I know just somebody sort of not needing you for something. Yeah.

But then there's the feeling of like oh are they just need to snuggle with them or whatever.

Yeah. Before the pandemic I had plans to tour this year. I went on a tour in South America in December for two weeks without them, which was a big deal. But I, I enjoyed the hell out of taking baths that entire tour.

Now, I can't imagine actually doing that even if the world was back to normal.

Did that decision to go on tour, did you feel excitement and thrill? Oh, yeah. And then the female guilt.

Exactly. Yeah, well, it was like being on a vacation. Even the flight felt like a vacation. Yeah. A flight without children. Are you kidding me? Oh, my wife likes 10 movies. I slept. I drank one eight. Yeah, but yes. And then you feel guilty and then you feel guilty for not feeling more guilty. How do we inherit this.

It's just what it is.

But you know what I mean.

Like, I fucking don't believe that men have the same way when they probably just don't overthink it quite like we do. But by the end, I was definitely missing, you know, real life. The first week I was on vacation, I drank a lot was I'm not going to like I love that.

I want to go on tour with you. Oh, my God. You could open up or I could open up for you.

All right.

To whom would you most like to apologize and why? I mean, I would like to apologize to anyone I've ever been rude or short to anyone. I've truly been rude to them in my life. I feel like I've apologized. But I think that sometimes when you're just having interactions with people, I know for me, like I'm way less off the cuff than I used to be. And I try so hard to be polite to everyone but my early twenties.

I don't know. I got angry a lot and I probably wasn't always sweet to everyone.

You know, I don't think I was ever malicious, but anyone I've ever been rude to while I was hangry, which includes probably brunch, waiters, brunch is the worst.

I feel like everyone at brunch is waiting for it to be over or waiting to go back and take a nap.

It's just such a weird cultural phenomenon. Let's all get angry and wait in line and pay a lot.

All right. Samantha, James is going to have like an aggro song called Brunch.

Brunch. Brunch makes me feel like your Benedikte. That's pretty good. Thanks. No, this is just our first time collaborating. All right.

So what skill are you still trying to master?

I really want to play the violin for some reason. I want to play like country fiddle so bad. And I started taking lessons when I was pregnant seven years ago, but I haven't really touched it since. But I do have a little bit of a fiddle.

Tell me a little bit about a musical inclination with that I. It's like the way it sounds. Yeah, my mom bought me a piano for my ninth birthday as a big, extravagant gift, something that I did not want. I had never expressed an interest in playing piano. And when it was being hauled up the stairs in our modest house in Edmonds, Washington, I was like, oh, fuck, I'm going to have to express a lot of joy at nine years old to be getting a piano.

That's a lot of pressure for a gift. I was like, oh yeah, I took lessons.

Truly, I think for seven years and I didn't absorb anything. I did everything I could to avoid it. Musical inclination. It did not feel innate within me. Although my parents are big musical lovers, both of them are so thrilled that I'm talking with you right now.

Anyway, that's just my musical ability.

So you get an idea of where I'm coming from when I ask you questions about music and I still want to get better on piano. Q I mean, I'm a piano player and I feel good about how I play the piano. But I think, you know, the thing about any art form is you never want to stop trying to get better at it. That's sort of the trick to staying inspired. I think when I read a script.

I love the puzzle of unlocking the dialogue that's been given, which feels incredibly difficult. It does feel like how do you make this sound like a natural thing that's coming out of your mouth? And I wonder if you do a cover, if there's a similar feeling. Yes. And I come at cover songs from you know, I'm not somebody who's always written my own music. And then every once in a while does a cover for someone who started out doing covers.

And now I'm much more comfortable doing my own material. And I think the reason is because the words felt natural coming out of my mouth like I really need it. But I do think that the trick with doing a cover is basically that you have to own it. There's a lot of covers that I've tried over the years that there's just like maybe one or two lines.

Just I just can't make sound right coming out of my mouth and I'll just kind of flower a little bit more sometimes to make it work or I just will give up and I won't do that song.

What do you think is the most challenging cover?

I will say covering certain artists is always easier than others, but covering someone like Joni Mitchell, it's hard because she's so specific with the way she phrases things and her lyrics are so deep and personal, but also wordy in the phrasing totally from another planet because she's from another planet musically in the best possible way. It's just hard to cover her song, but I've done it and I found my way with a couple of them and felt OK about it.

So wait along those lines, though, what vocalists you admire, like if you could name three, three, only three. I'm giving you a limit. Well, like Aretha Franklin and oh my God, I only have three Aretha, Ray Charles, Willie Nelson and Dolly Parton.

I can't just do three. Well, it's interesting, though, the musicians that you mentioned, their vocalizations do tend to lend themselves to interpretation. You mean Dolly? She has this high lilting look, very strong, but at times incredibly wavering when she goes in to her higher registers. So beautiful. And you're almost worried, like, will she come back from it?

Aching. Yes. Yeah. And Joni Mitchell is soulful, but still incredibly delicate, especially the early stuff. It's very high and intense at times.

You know, how would you. Well, I wanted to ask you a question, but I don't even know how to articulate it. Like, how would you describe your own voice?

I guess I actually have never been asked to describe my own voice. I'll describe what I want it to be because I can't really be objective about it. But talking about Joni Mitchell, she's one of my favorites, is to listen to Blue. And I was obsessed with it in court and Spark. And then I got into this album she made in the 90s called Turbulent Indigo, and her voice had dropped like three octaves. She sounded like an old jazz singer.

I mean, she always loved jazz and had that sort of thing in her musicality, but her voice always had that high kind of like folksy thing back in the 70s. But in the 90s, I mean, she sounded like a completely different person. And I loved equally both versions of her voice. But I remember thinking when I was young, like, oh, my God, I can't wait. I get older and I get that, like, no smoky thing going, you know?

So that's what I wish I sounded like. I think I've got a little bit of that, but not quite as much as I is.

I want yet I'm sure you can ask, is thinking about the first time you heard a particular voice or even a particular pop song like what was the album when you were nine?

I was really into Aretha and I was a. Especially into that song, Ain't no way it's so good. I mean, the band is so good, he's so good harmonically so amazing.

And then I'm pretty sure it was Whitney Houston's mom, Cissy Houston, did that part in the background because, oh, she was up high and it sounds like opera or something. I was just like I was in that.

I also really loved loved Cyndi Lauper, me two time after time. All right. So Samantha James. And we're going to do time after time. Yeah, we'll do. I bet you could get somebody in there.

All right. So if you could start a band or collaborate with anyone living or dead, who would it be?

Probably Bob Marley, just because that would be so fun. The first time I heard Bob Marley, I thought that was the closest I felt to religion. Yeah. Let me I think I was 10 and it felt just like peaceful joy and community connection. It was like whatever music does to us, sometimes we listen to it. And like also Sean O'Connor for me was a big thing. I started listening to Snoop, I guess when her big stuff came out, I was probably 13 or something, but that felt so raw and private.

Yeah, you're right. It did. So you would go with Bob Marley? I would sing in his backup section. I mean, I do have a band I'm in where three of us women and our thing is singing harmonies with each other. So fun. So I would basically be in the harmony section and be happy if I could be anywhere near that music or I would sing harmony with Johnny Cash. You know, I don't even need a line of myself.

I would just it would be so funny.

Do you have a greatest regret? I don't have any real regrets, but sometimes I regret not making decisions sooner. Decisions I know I'm going to make. And then you waffle or you waver. I think I usually know in my gut that as I get older, I feel like I weigh way more. I don't know why. Even just agreeing to do stuff. I just I think about it for a week instead of just saying, no, I don't want to do that.

I know I don't want to do it or I know I do want to do it.

I really respect that. And if we can, I think we all feel it. The idea of being decisive, I tend to want to sit on something for a bit and like kind of sit out in the idea of being decisive is scary because how are we to know what the outcome will be exactly?

I've been in some relationships where I've been like in hindsight, like, oh, I made that decision to leave that person probably five years before I actually did. Oh, for sure.

I think the breakup thing I always tell young people I just break up, don't think about it too much if you want to break up. But I never did that. You know, it was always a long drawn out over and thought everybody everybody's in pain. You know, it sucks for everybody. All right.

When or where are you happiest? In the ocean, you love the ocean, I love the ocean. OK, I did I think I want to be or I was a whale in the past, but I love the ocean cold. Yeah, I'm fine with it. Cold. I mean, I can deal. I'm like afraid of a cold body of water like some people, but I prefer a hot bath after for sure. But yeah, I do love the ocean.

Do you think it's because you love looking at it or being in it or both.

I never thought I would love looking at it so much. But recently I was at the beach and we were on this deck looking at whales jumping out for like hours. And I loved looking at it, but that was more recent than usually. I just love being in it. Could you sail across the ocean? I don't know if I'm in the boat that much.

So if you had to travel by either boat or train for, let's say, a week, would you prefer a train?

I think I would prefer a train. Unless by boat you mean, you know, I'm not going to bar and I get to swim every morning and every afternoon and every night.

I don't know. Part of my comfort with this whole, like, quarantine thing is not just puzzling. I've so reverted to the second grader within me that I like watching train videos. I love watching like these basic things that are comforting me in this odd time.

That makes a lot of sense. Train videos like just videos of trains going around the world.

Yeah, I like to watch like a high class train trip where somebody is like, oh, they're serving us like, oh yeah. Is this like to cram and you just hear all 13 stuff.

Totally PBS. I love the travel shows, cooking shows, cooking, travel shows preferably. I think everybody's comforted by that basic stuff right now. For me, it's the water. Yes. But also I ah, we made a lot of fires in the spring. It was still kind of cold here and I would just sit there and that it just felt so good. So all the basic stuff is like staring at the crackling fire. So yeah, I'm so with you on that.

They reminded me of childhood. OK, Naura to cap this off with I think is the most difficult question, especially for someone to answer themselves in one word. How would you like to be remembered. Oh God.

For some reason fun pops into my mind. I haven't gotten that one. I love that one. I think I know why. I think historically I've always had a lot of fun with my friends. And maybe it's not the persona I portray on stage, but I think after having kids, I felt less fun. You relate to that?

Oh my God, yes. So and I was talking to a friend about it. I just feel like so boring and so not fun and like not really myself completely anymore. And he was just like, oh, do it because you get everybody I know goes through. You'll be fine in a couple of years. OK, that's a great friend.

He has no kids, by the way, had the wisdom to say that because I went through the same thing where it's like I'm not laughing as much. I find myself, I'm just not. And it didn't occur to me for like four years. You're just tired.

It's like I used to be really fun.

So I guess I would like to reclaim that on my tombstone someday. Well, I know how to do it, Nora.

How we're going to make a movie. We should make it.

We're going to make just friends. You and Jane. Yeah.

Oh, my God. Please make just friends, too, even if I can't come near it. And you don't allow me on that.

Oh, no, no, no. My plan is for Samantha James to just be all over you in the creepiest place.

That's amazing. I would definitely do that.

She's definitely like she is crushing on you so hard, though. She does not want to be just friends.

Back in a moment. Are you sure I'm down?

Norah, I cannot thank you enough for doing this with you.

Two things and graduation's on your album. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. Hey, everyone, I'd like to introduce you to April Buya, who is a dating expert, coach, matchmaker and the creator of LEVEL, which is a game changing online dating and introduction service. You can find more information about April and our other experts at unqualified dotcom. Hi, April, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you so much for having me.

So I am on a boat. You're on a boat right now? Yeah, we bought a small boat at the beginning of this hook up in Washington State. Then I don't know what I've showered. I'm wearing Michael's clothes anyway.

The whole thing could not be more chaotic, but I feel so fortunate. I love it.

How are you, April? I'm really good. I'm really good. I was just telling somebody the other day that I've had like like a lot of people. I've just had these, like, extreme highs and lows. And I've just never been busier as I have over the last six months.

It's been ridiculous, but more of coaching than even matchmaking, even though everybody's looking for love right now. It just seems like all of my coaching clients have come out of the woodwork. So usually by Friday, I'm ready for a cocktail. Do you find it hard to not be in person or does that make the intimacy almost easier? I don't know if there's a difference.

I mean, my business has been virtual for a really long time, so I haven't stopped or skipped a beat. I think for everybody else, the panic is what do we do? You know, the common answer is just get on a zoom or a face time. But that only lasts so long because people don't know what they're doing. They don't know how to connect, you know, in this way. They don't know how to create chemistry and emotion.

It's like it's hard for most people. So a lot of people are bailing out and then kind of coming in and dipping their toe in and then heading back out again. It's been like a trial for everybody in the single community. Like all I can say is, thank God I'm married right now. God completely. And you have Michael.

I know. And he's right here and he speaks so highly of you. Oh, my gosh. He's one of my favorite people. I feel really lucky, too. It's like this time for so much intimacy. It's wonderful to have somebody in my life that matches that really well.

I'm so happy for both of you. Isn't it funny how our relationships are like they're either showing the cracks right now or they're showing all the goodness in our partnerships?

I think it's a rewarding time. I kind of do, too. And I feel very guilty talking about what this time is kind of given me, because I know it has hurt so many people. And so I feel guilty talking about that. But from a very individual perspective, it's been a really nice, intense time in a way that kind of has fed me a bit in a weird way. Yeah, I know.

I get that right. You almost want to talk about it. It's like survivor's guilt. Yeah, totally.

I love at least the examination of our priorities living in Los Angeles, where we're consuming everything all the time. I felt a tremendous amount of relief, as you can probably tell from the image.

They have the sleeping bag behind me. No makeup. Yeah. So, April, I am really glad that you are on these calls today, because when we get these questions about people who are looking for love and in especially in the online world, I have very, very limited dating experience. I married three people. Well, getting married, getting married to do the third in the last but the last year.

But I haven't been out in the world.

So when people write in about these questions, I don't like practical advice. I love to talk with people about their feelings that I can relate to of like loneliness or isolation or desire for a relationship. But practically speaking, I have no idea what to tell them to do. OK, so I'm so grateful.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. OK, should we call Jenny? Hello. Hi, Jenny. Hi. Hi, it's on a high honor, and you're here with April Buya. She is a relationship expert. April, would you mind introducing yourself in your official way? Sure.

Well, hi, Jenny. I am a 20 year veteran in the personal matchmaking space. I started out working with successful eligible men, and I'm also a dating and relationship coach. And I recently founded a new company, which is a hybrid of dating tech and personal matchmaking. Yeah.

So I've been involved in a lot of relationships and created hundreds of marriages and families. So honestly, at this point there isn't a story.

I have not heard Ginny. I think she's way more qualified than I am. Jenny. Will you tell us what's going on?

All right. So a little bit about my situation. I grew up in Michigan, and after I graduated from college in 2015, I followed my parents and moved out to California. And back in Michigan, I had like a handful of best friends and I had a good boyfriend, all of which just fizzled out after the big move. But once I moved out here, though, I was surprised by how difficult it was to go out and make lasting friendships basically from scratch, especially as an introvert who would rather socialize online than in person.

And I've made a few friends since I've made it out to California. I had a boyfriend. I went out on multiple first dates using various dating apps, but it always ended up with one of us becoming uninterested in the other. And the only difference is whenever I lost interest, I never went as far as ghosting them, which happens to me so often that I'm just afraid to start my date again, knowing that that's unfortunately part of the culture now.

And plus, I've noticed this always happens, like when he finds out that I'm not as sexually experienced as he'd hoped, which is something that's always haunted me as an adult because of how it's affecting my romantic life today. So I guess my question is, knowing that I'm fully capable of having these meaningful relationships with friends and potential partners, how to avoid getting ghosted again and if at the same time rebuild those solid foundations that I once had in Michigan with a potential best friend or boyfriend in California today.

Hey, Jenny. Yeah. When you speak about not having as much sexual experience, will you elaborate a little bit on that?

I mean, I grew up in a very conservative Christian family, so it's been emphasized to, like, be active until you get married and all that. Yeah, but as far as my own personal experience, I mean, I fooled around with my boyfriend because he was the love of my life at the time. But nowadays it's like since it's going to be my first time with the next person, I have to, like, trust them.

Right? Of course. Gosh, yeah, of course. OK, April, go tell her how she can find love.

Well, first, thanks so much for just being real and candid about this. I kind of want to start because what I'm hearing is it sounds like you've got three or four things that are a big concern. But in my opinion, it's one thing. So let's just talk about what's at the heart of everything. But before we get to that, let's talk about ghosting. Ghosting has become this very popular term. But what we've seen is ghosting is actually not personal.

So when you have the right attitude and mindset, because dating requires an upfront attitude, mindset, shift and a building of your foundation, that means your foundation of your confidence. So if you don't have those three things set, you can kind of get blown in the wind and we don't want that. So let's talk about the ghosting aspect. You're not really being ghosted. It's more of overwhelm. So you can imagine the way the apps are designed and set up.

They're designed to kind of keep you in it, right? The tech is designed to keep you swiping. And when you have that many messages kind of backlog's, think about your email inbox. Right. It's a pressure cooker. So you might be feeling neglected or left out of something or ghosted when what's really happening is somebody is just overwhelmed. I've seen a lot of guys looking at their apps and I've said, why not her? Why don't you call her?

She looks great. She looks amazing. I don't know enough. And they literally toss their hands in the air and they want to walk away. So can we start there, Jenny, and just start reframing how you talk about the being ghosted? Because when you say I've been ghosted, almost puts you in a powerless position?

Well, in my experience, when I've been ghosted, I'd be talking to someone and we go into, like our interest and all that. And then eventually in the conversation, they find like something that turns them off and then like, delete my number and then block me, I guess. Right, right.

But that's part of the overwhelm all dating apps are is like, imagine you're walking the door to a bar restaurant. Somebody looks up. That's it. That's all that that is. And so with so much deal flow, if you will, it's. Easy for people just to cut and run, even if it's mid conversation or even if they've had a date with you, because there's a thousand profiles waiting in their inbox when they walk away from that date or that call.

So what's happened is people have become pickier than they have become more selective. And that is the fault of the dating apps.

And April, that's such an interesting way to phrase that. Will you elaborate a little bit on that picture then? They yeah. Selective is how you phrased it, right?

Well, think about anything like if you were handed one present from someone special, you would open that present carefully. You would look at it, you would hold it to your heart. You would think that person over and over for the gift. But if somebody handed you 20. Right, I don't have children, but I know you're a mom. You know, if you handed your kid 30 gifts in one sitting, they tend to not appreciate each one.

It's just it's too much. Oh, April.

OK, so it's like the only tool that I have on a road trip. Did I just touch a nerve? I'm sorry, but you're completely right and I love your analogy.

Yeah. So picky is somebody that is looking for a way out. Right. When you're meeting guys GenY that are picky and they're finding fault in you, it's because they don't have the right attitude and mindset to start out.

They're dating. They're not that ready. So they're looking for every little tiny thing to not be successful. I know that's kind of hard to process, but it's true. Selective is different than picky because selective means, hey, I'm selective about somebody's values the way they live their life. Right. If our morals are in alignment, if our lifestyle goals and alignment that's being selective.

Picky is I don't like the way they laugh. You know, I don't like the color of his hair. I don't like the way she does this. And if somebody's not giving you time to get to know you, it's not a reflection of you, but rather their own stage of readiness. Yeah, that makes sense.

And also, you're an introvert and introverts have a harder time once you're kind of past that messaging, because then you have to really show up. And then double of that is what are we doing now? We're doing all these zoom and FaceTime dates. And even as we're here now, you know, it's the little extra energy to kind of be on a zoom and into a camera than it is if you're just messaging or talking on the phone. Right.

So I get that. But the biggest thing about an introvert is you have to remember who you are. And so remembering why you're confident, why you're an amazing woman, you're educated.

I can't see you so but I'm sure you're attractive. You've got a lot of things going for you. Right. So you have to remember that. But also know that the older you get, the harder it is for people to understand that you're an introvert or that you're shy. Right. Because it doesn't read. Nobody can tell. So you might look not interested or not invested. Does that make sense?

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, actually, because recently I decided to pursue acting. So I've been taking my one classes and all that and a lot of time.

Good for you, Jenny. Thank you.

Know, I mean it because people will be like, how do I get into acting?

And they never want to hear things like tankless you like a lot of times when you're on the first day or you're talking to someone who you're constantly on all the time to show your best self and to impress the other person to make sure of that. Yeah, that's the wrong attitude.

So when you're dating, you can't have your critic on your shoulder. Right.

She's not invited. So that's the thing about people who are shy and introverted.

You turn it on yourself and you're literally watching yourself as you're with somebody else. So then there's literally three people on that date. Yes. You have to get the focus off of you. Here's like a little trick. I tell people, pretend like you're the hostess of the restaurant or the the woman hosting the party. And it's your job to make sure everybody who comes into your space, it's your job to make them feel really comfortable and welcome.

Like, can I get you some food? Can I get you some water? You know, are you warm enough? Hi, welcome. You've got to turn that energy toward the other person because guess what, Jenny? Guys are sitting there and they're doing that self eval, too. They're sitting there thinking, am I cute enough? Do I have enough money in the bag? Like, is my hair OK? You know, am I funny enough of my smart enough everybody sitting there having conversations with themselves, thinking that they have to perform or that you have to be your best self.

You don't have to be your best self to be dating. You have to be your most authentic self. And that's it.

That is tough, though, April. I mean, the few dates I've been out on, I don't even remember their personalities at all. I just remember wanting to make sure that they liked me, that they fell in love with me.

But for what purpose?

I don't know. So, April, in terms of reframing Jenny's mindset, do you think that reframing it will help with the practical solutions as well? And does this also apply to friendships? Because I think that Jenny wants also friendships. Yep.

One hundred percent. So I had said attitude, mindset and foundation. The foundation is you have to build your life out. You've got to build those core friendships here. And I also want to say this to Jenny. A lot of people feel that kind of cliff after college. I think you're attaching the loneliness and isolation to California and longing for the days back home where you actually had like a built in kind of connection with people. It's not California, L.A., you know, there's a saying everywhere you go, there you are.

There's just a difference because now you're post college. So our connections change. They're not built in like they were when we were in high school and college. Everything comes from scratch. And that's the beauty of it. Right? You're not relying on past history to create something new. So that mindset is, hey, I'm just going to stop worrying that I don't have a built in foundation in connection with these people. And I'm going to fall in love with curiosity.

Like, I'm just going to get really damn curious about people I love. And that way, when you're curious about somebody else and you're not trying to perform, you have so much more fun because dating is just relating. And if you have the intention of I'm going out with this person or talking to this guy because I just want to connect with people, not I'm looking for this goal, like get your eye off the target of the end right of the end goal and just enjoy the journey because my philosophy is date and suffer less, right?

I mean, dating is fraught with all kinds of just horrible things that happen and frustrating. And you want to, like, just throw your hands in the air, but you can absolutely suffer less with these things. And it first starts with, you know, you have this attachment to your lack of sexual experience to having like a little bit of shame I'm hearing in your voice and you're still young. And I'm dealing with a client that has your exact same story right now.

You have to write down today, like, why am I confident? Like, what are the things I am really, really good at? Like if I woke you up in the middle of the night and I said, OK, Janie, what makes you you what are you great at? Write those things down. And then next to that it's what do I bring to the table? Like if somebody were dating me. Don't talk about your deficits.

I call it romantic value. What do I bring to the table in a relationship? And you should know that, Jenny, about yourself. And it can be super basic because who we were as like little kids is who we still are now. We're just older and a little bit wiser, but I think our core is the same. So that means your I call it your overall confidence remains no matter what. Like it doesn't matter if somebody goes you or you go out with somebody disappears on you or you have a heartbreak, that core confidence, it's like a baseline always remains.

That does not change. It doesn't change in a pandemic. It doesn't change with relationships. It is you. And then finally, it's embracing this. I have waited. I have training from parents. You know, I grew up in a conservative Christian family and I have a story about this. So that authenticity we were talking about earlier is the same thing. Like be bold enough to share that with guys. You don't have to share it like on that first text or call.

But when you're talking to them long before sex is ever in the picture, tell your story that you told us today and make sure you love the story, because I think you might agree with this. If you love the story you tell, it always lands well, right?

Oh, completely. And I also think that Jenny's story is great. I do, too. And it's honest and you're right, April, about understanding your story. So then you can weed out people who don't understand their story as well. Yeah, because when you provide a safe space for somebody to share, when you're vulnerable and open and real and authentic, then you see other people doing it.

And it's a really good kind of litmus test because if you're putting your heart on the table and it's sitting there beating in front of you and somebody is not picking up the ball, like, let them go, they're not on your level.

It's OK. They don't have the sensitivity because to me it feels like you have a lot of sensitivity and a big heart. And, you know, unfortunately, people that are sensitive and have a big heart get stomped on a lot. So it's about building that inner core confidence and understanding and embracing your story and sharing it freely because it's got like that same story. When people go, why are you still single? Everybody immediately goes into fight or flight with that question because they don't know the story and they don't like it.

Right. So I like the story of, hey, you know, I grew up in this family. And, you know, sometimes I feel like when I meet guys. And I don't have the same sexual experience that they do, I might get declined and it bothers me like start doing that. You can't break dating. When I was building up my company, somebody said, you can't break tech. And I was afraid to make a mistake.

And I was afraid to live like, oh, my gosh, if I build this, what if it's wrong? What if the customers don't want it? There's too much pressure. Like, you cannot break this side of your life. But I think it's definitely time for a reboot and just framing your lens a little bit differently and embracing what is and loving what is new. Because, first of all, everybody, even people that are from California and have the built in connections, I want you to know that everybody I talk to and I talk to a lot of people every week, everybody is feeling fragmented.

Everybody is feeling the isolation, even if their best friends are close by. It's weird. So for the first time in our history, it doesn't matter who you are, where you come from, what age you are, what your economic statuses are. Situations are different, but our emotions are very much similar right now. Yeah.

Jenny, tell us more. What do you thinking?

I also had a question about like having a potential best friend as well. Yeah. Because, like, it's very lonely when you're the only person from your upbringing. Yeah. Out in a new city.

Oh, Jenny, I'm that kind of person that was I don't know. The Heavenly Creatures reference will resonate with you. If not, that's fine because it's creepy.

But I hear you when you miss your best friends and I imagine you're also seeing what they're all doing back in Michigan and how that must sting a little bit. I love APR's emphasis on focusing on how to deal with exactly these things right now as opposed to reminiscing. But I so feel you on like missing a really strong female friend or friend in general. And I think that to me, the world with social media at times feels increasingly more lonely. I don't think that we communicate as well over text when we're not speaking to each other.

It's hard to understand inflection and emotion in April. Do you have suggestions for finding friends as well?

You know, I think finding friends and finding lovers and partners, it requires the same toolkit. It doesn't change, believe it or not. I think a lot of people separate these and they put them into different boxes. Oh, I have my friends. I have my work friends. I have my lovers. I have my partners. You know, when I said dating is relating, if you can have kind of like this open mind of, hey, I'm not out there dating because that sounds scary, right?

It sounds like, OK, I'm going to put myself out there like that word out there just makes me feel freaked out, too, to sing.

So, you know, it's I'm going to just be in it. I'm going to meet new people. I'm going to connect with people. You might actually through your dating apps, you actually might meet some friends, because if you find value in connection as opposed to only chemistry and romance, then some of these guys you're talking to might become friends who then know someone who that knows someone. Next thing you know, you're being invited to like a hang out and suddenly there's a girl there.

But with women, especially at this age, you actually have to make the invite. And part of that vulnerability I'm asking you to do is required here. And it literally means saying to somebody that you kind of connected with, hey, you know, before the pandemic, we were, you know, working together or whatnot. And you always seemed really interesting to me. I'm looking for a great gal pal here. I'm really missing my friends in Michigan, and I would love to spend more time with you.

Can we face time or go for a walk on the beach or something? Like make the invitation? You know, earlier on in my career, a lot of the women that were working with me wanted to be my friend, and I pushed everybody away. And then I realized, wait a minute, like we have a built in something there. But there was some women that really had to kind of like, bang down my wall, so to speak, to get to me to say, hey, you know, you're cool, I'm cool, let's be friends.

So I think you just need to put out some more effort in that way. You know, Bumble is I don't know if they've started it. Have you seen their friend app?

Yeah, they have tried it, but I didn't get any takers. OK, why do you think? I think it's just that we tried it one night and then it was just floor, so I just deleted it.

OK, you gave up too soon. Damn, April, give it to sing one night, you know.

My gosh, if I want to have a flat stomach, could I do one? Sit up and expect to have a voice, you know. Go on, Jenny.

I think, you know, what I'm hearing is when you say things like I didn't get any takers or these things are happening to me, you're putting yourself in this position of being a victim and. I don't think that's who you are, I think right now it's about empowering yourself and saying, I'm going to put out there, I'm going to look back at my friend profile and I'm going to look back at my dating profile and I'm going to look at that and say, like, am I being real?

Am I really putting myself out there in a real way? Because you cannot look at this stuff as rejection. And with everybody right now being really freaked out and overly adrenalized, it's so important that we're being super value add to people. And that means extra kind, extra compassionate, bigger invitations. It's almost like you're cutting through like white noise. So what worked, you know, eight, nine, 10 months ago? It doesn't work right now.

So that means you have to step up into that and you can't try things one day. You know, most people are on dating apps for like a year or two years.

And if they're going to stay on those for that amount of time without getting completely drained, they have to kind of use them as a side dish as opposed to the entire meal, which it's like I'm going to check this a couple of times a week. If everything you're doing is just online, it's going to be harder because you're going to feel like all of your hopes and dreams are pinned on that. So are there any women that you've gotten to know out here that have felt like maybe you had a slight connection, but it didn't build into a friendship?

Is there anybody that you can reach back out to now?

A couple of them, but by now they've moved far away. OK, can I make a recommendation for you? OK, those girls that move, can you get on the line with them today? Because, you know, I'm not seeing a lot of I don't know about, but I'm not seeing a lot of people right now either. So it doesn't even really matter that somebody is out of town, because I think what you need is the practice of building relationships.

So reach back out to those two people today and just say, hey, I was thinking about you. We didn't get to really develop a friendship because you moved away. And I'm just really in the need of some great, you know, connection with other like minded women. And then when you put that out there, I promise you you will get something so beautiful right back start there, because then you're going to kind of get in the rhythm.

Don't worry, if they're here or elsewhere, just get in the rhythm of making a date with those people. Like, do it like, hey, can we do like Wednesday, meet up Sunday morning tea.

I remember one time I was in college, I had been kind of rejected by a sorority. That sounds more dramatic than it was. I certainly did not belong in a sorority, which is why I lived in the dorms. At least that's how I self-identified. So that was stinging my feelings for a minute. And this girl came up to me in my creative writing class. She basically said, I really like the piece that you wrote, I want to be your friend.

And she was a quiet girl. Like I was in this class. It was a small class. And then we stayed friends for four or five years after I moved to Los Angeles. But I remember I was in a very lonely time in my life and I remember being so honored by her and feeling very safe in her directive. Like I like you.

You seem interesting and odd, but that felt like a little bit of a lesson to me. Like I was so impressed by her courage to come up to me and start engaging with me. I know that we're obviously now in different times, but I really appreciated that. But I only use that anecdote to talk about myself.

But, you know, I agree.

And it's so hard. You know, my husband is an introvert as well. And, you know, I look at our group of friends and they're mostly mine, you know, that I introduced to our life. You know, I actually have a lot of shyness in me. Nobody knows that. But I worked through it. I really made it like my business because I didn't want people to think differently of me. I didn't want people to think that I wasn't kind or that I wasn't warm.

It was like a muscle. I had to consistently work that. But just like you were saying on a having somebody come up and say, I want to know you was because you probably wrote something that was revealing and and it was cool. It said something about you. So it sparked interest in her. It doesn't matter if it's friends or lovers, that same thing exists. The only differences we're either having sex with our partners or we're just hanging out their friends.

But the warmth and the love and the companionship, it's always, I think, the same. And I've noticed that whenever I'm kind of out there in the world being real, I get, you know, more bees with honey. Right. So I think Ana's right on that journey. If I were you, like, I wish we could look at her profile right now.

Honestly, I remember, like, try an experiment, like, OK, maybe I'm just lying to myself just to be, like, truthful about my sexual experience. Let's face it, that's where all guys are out there for, and then I noticed that when I said, OK, I'm a virgin, I got less like that.

OK, so there's a difference on your online dating profile. You want to be personable without being personal, right? Because it's too scary.

You can't just open up the door and let everybody into the house like you have to guard yourself more with that. I'm talking about sharing your personality traits. So a lot of people on their dating apps, they do the. I am. I am. I am. I suggest talking about him like you speak directly into his listening. So you're writing like maybe like a couple of traits about yourself, like, hey, I'm you know, I come from Michigan and I had this kind of a background and I'm now out here after college, blah, blah, blah, looking for great connections and then immediately go to him and describe him like you're somebody I want to know because you are.

And then list three traits that you want in somebody you don't like about what he does or what he looks like. You're just saying because you're compassionate and you're kind and you're curious, like I want to know. Yeah, right.

April, I love what you say about curiosity because I do think we all want to talk about ourselves and we all want people to know us. And so when you speak about the broad spectrum of curiosity, what did you say? Personable, but not personal. Yes, that is something I would have a really hard time with.

But I also want to make sure that, you know, when you have been holding out sexually for a while, you make it this really big thing and you put a lot of pressure. I heard it in your voice earlier when you said, like, I need to trust somebody in advance, you know, before I go there. Trust isn't in that person because people will make mistakes and you cannot control the behaviors of others. But you can definitely really, like, sit with yourself and go, do I trust me?

Like, do I trust my own instincts when I'm in this person's world? So when I met my husband, things kind of progressed quickly on the physical plane. I kind of broke all of my own rules quickly. And it wasn't because he did or said anything to gain my trust. It's because I learned how to trust my own gut. Like, this is a safe guy. This is a good guy. I could tell. Right. So make sure you're not putting too much pressure on yourself or some new guy that you're just getting to know because you're waiting for him to really show up big in order to go there physically, because you might be thinking that these guys are leaving because you don't have sexual experience.

They could be leaving because A, maybe they are looking for one thing and you know what? They exist. But there's plenty of guys exist out there that are looking for a relationship. We hear from them every day. It could also be that he doesn't know how to handle it or that maybe he's feeling the pressure of being something for you. It's like a big mountain, right? You want it to be easy to get to know you and fluid and then when you feel trust.

Yeah, great. Decide if you're going to go there sexually, but don't make that his responsibility. Just get to know these people. Yeah. April, you are wise because I'm old onna.

I'm old, but I love what I think.

Earlier you said that sometimes with five friends through the dating apps that actually happened to me because I met my best friend when I was back in Michigan. This is a guy I met on OK, Cupid, of all places. And so obviously since we were on a dating app, we had these expectations that be something more. But then we kept talking to each other and we just became best friends ever since, even if I moved all the way out to California.

So as long as we maintain that online friendship, like it's always going to be there. So it's like, if that was simple, why is it so hard to do it in person, like out here?

You know, so it was easier for whatever reason. It was just a really great connection. And good connections are kind of sometimes hard to find. It's where people go in.

It's like if you're on a diving board, right, and you don't know what you're doing, you want to do your dismount or whatever they call it in the high dive, you're going to do a complete belly flop in the water. So it's really the on set before these guys or you get on these apps. It's like, what is the purpose? What is the intention? If the intention is, you know, shoot for the moon, you might land on a star.

Like I might be looking for the love of my life, but I might end up meeting a really cool friend. If that intention is there, more people will be open to it. I do want to caution you most guys, if they're attracted to you, they don't know how to kind of immediately downshift into, hey, be my buddy, right? So if you're losing people in that way, please don't worry about that because it's just their own intention.

It has nothing to do with you. One of the biggest things setting up dates for 20 years, one of my biggest frustrations is I only put people together that have really good core components of compatibility. I actually don't care if people get married or have sex or find love when I care about is the connection. And I'm always kind of bummed when I come into my office on a Monday morning and I get, yeah, you know, awesome person.

There should be more people like her in the world. You know, we don't have that sexual chemistry next. It's like, oh, what? You know, are you kidding? There's so much value in knowing this person. What if she has a best friend that could be good for you? Or what if you guys end up being business partners or friends or whatever? So I look at the massive opportunity that's in front of you and using the dating apps as just not necessarily saying you're looking for friends.

It's just about it's going to naturally happen if you take your eye off the target. And don't worry what these people do, you know, clean up your own yard. Do not worry about the reactions of these guys. Stick to the plan. No. Why you're confident. Write it down. Understand what you bring to the table. Understand that you're not being rejected. Right. It's just overwhelming. And to start fresh here, embrace the unknown and all of these new connections you're about to make, because I see amazing things for you.

Well, Jenny, I do, too. I see amazing things for me as well with April my life.

But Jenny, did we help you?

Oh, yeah, definitely. I got, like, so much out of this, like a lot more than just going out and trying new things, experiencing and feeling.

So this will a great help that makes me really relieved and really happy. Truly.

Yeah. Jenny, you're awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye. April, I cannot thank you enough for being here with us today. You are just magnificent and brilliant and truly so helpful to myself and to our listeners. Thank you again. I appreciate that. Thank you, Ana. It's been amazing to be here.