When you work, you work next level. When you play, you play next level. When it's time to sleep, Sleep Number smart beds are designed to embrace your uniqueness, providing you with high-quality sleep every night. Sleep Next Level. Jd Power ranks Sleep Number number one in customer satisfaction with mattresses purchased in store. And now, the Queens Sleep Number C4 smart bed is only 15.99. Save $300 only for a limited time. For JD Power 2023 award information, visit JDPower. Com/awards, only at a Sleep Number store or sleepnumber. Com. Com.

Polyamory, open marriage, swinging, whatever you call it. It's a world that, much like a good gym after the holidays, can find itself periodically packed with newcomers. The crowds ebb and flow in moments of cultural reckoning, which is why it makes sense that in the aftermath of pandemic quarantines, declining interest in marriage, and fading taboos around the wider expression of gender and sexual identities, the conversation around open relationships is back. In this iteration, it's kicked off by a well-timed memoir. I see him sitting at the bar in jeans and a button down. When he smiles and waves, the tension drains from my body and is replaced by something else, something strong and unmistakable. Desire. This is author Molly Rodan-Winter, narrating the audiobook titled More. Her stories of her decade-long experience in an open marriage basically went viral. We have a place on 16th Street. What about you and your husband? Girlfriend. Husband. I pause. Of course, he knows I'm married. I never tried to hide it. But hearing him say the word husband has brought stew into the bar with us. And he has a girlfriend. Why does this information matter so much to me? Maybe he assumes we're both cheating.

I should have mentioned that cultural ideas about what constitutes infidelity, they're also in flux in an era when digital connections easily compete with physical ones. I wanted to stop and take stock of the latest conversation around non-monogamy, or as it's sometimes called, ethical non-monogamy. How do people fall into polyamory? What are the misconceptions about how it works? And what do you do if you find yourself at the crossroads of considering it? I'm Adi Cornish, and this is the assignment. There are a lot of experts in the world of ethical non-monogamy, so this isn't going to capture everyone's experience. But I want to introduce you to two people.

My name is Kevin Patterson. I am the author of the award-winning book, Loves Not Colorblind: Race and Representation of Polyamorous and Other Alternate Communities. I am a 20-plus year veteran of a polyamorous life. While I speak very frequently about race and polyamory, I also like to talk about how impacts masculinity and just identity in general, identity and representation.

Nice. Dr. Lex.

Hi, yeah. Dr. Lex Brown-James, she, her, doctor, are my pronouns. I'm a PhD-level sexologist and a licensed marriage and family therapist. I help people build intimacy into their relationships, and I teach about sex education and positivity from womb to tomb, helping others stay connected with medically accurate, comprehensive sexuality education.

Okay, that is an elevator pitch. You had me at womb to tomb. She's been doing this work for 15 years. First, I wanted to know just how this conversation can play out when she's sitting across from a couple considering opening their relationship.

Rough. They were rough. It was really assessing a relationship of what's missing. What are you feeling like you're being called to do? Sometimes it was people exploring their sexuality. A lot of it was the people exploring their sexuality. They're like, Oh, I really like my partner. I really want to learn more and engage in romantic romantic relationships with people of a different gender. That's what they were looking for. We were like, Is there space for this? Is there enough security for this? Is your relationship stable enough for this? Versus trying to problem-solve, for instance, somebody being a cheater. That was the other piece. They were like, Well, if you keep cheating on me, maybe we should just open our relationship. I'm like, Whoa, whoa, whoa. This is not that. If they cheat on you now, they're going to cheat on whoever else they're in a relationship with. That's not the caveat.

That's how you were hearing about it. Kevin, then how did you encounter it in your relationship? You're dating someone and you're going on vacation, and what happens?

I just started dating someone. There was a yearly trip to Caravana that we would do every year, and most of my friends couldn't make it. So I was like, Oh, hey, new girlfriend, come with me on this trip to Caravana.

She invited one of her friends. This is a Caribbean Festival?

Caribbean Festival in Toronto. They host it the first weekend in August, like every year. It's pretty amazing. It was something that me and the homies would go to on a regular basis. Once it became clear that I was bringing this new girlfriend and one of her friends along, I was like, You know what? I'm going to kiss your friend. And wife was like, Go for it. And next thing you know, we were at it. In the aftermath, though, I was waiting for the other shoe to drop. Technically, I was waiting for the other shoe to drop for the next 5 to 10 years. But the initial point of that was me saying, Okay, is this the part where it gets awkward? It ends our relationship. And they were just like, Why would it do that? And it We started a whole conversation. It's a 10-hour drive from Toronto to DC, where we were living. We had at least five or six of those hours discussing what the next steps were.

That's interesting. They brought to you a lot of knowledge, empathy? What did they have that you didn't at that point where they were able to talk? Patience.

Good one. At that point, it was just patience. Patience with me being awkward and them not being awkward. Then understanding in terms of them knowing that this wasn't something that needed to be viewed as a negative. Once we all understood this didn't need to be viewed as a negative, I thought I had a cheat code. Then I started doing every bit of education that I could. I read all of the books, listened to all of the podcasts, joined all of the discussion groups because I thought I had stumbled upon something that would not be possible if I damaged my relationship with my then-girlfriend.

And we should be clear, cheat code as in you went and learned more about it. You didn't just start cheating.

Yeah, sorry. Video game terms.

Which is how some people could be... Yeah, we should say you are wearing actual headphones, headset during this, so we're going to hear some gaming terms. Yeah. But this is where I bring in Dr. Leks. I don't know if I'm allowed to ask this because if it was my therapist, I wouldn't ask. But Do you have experience in this world? Did you have a first encounter personally?

Oh, so yeah, actually. I've been married for almost 10 years now, and we are a monogamous couple by choice. We've talked about what it might mean to have other partners for us. We talked about it dating. Dating, I had multiple partners that were serious. Then we eventually were like, Do we want to maintain this? What do we want to do? We decided to be monogamous.

Both of you have experienced this in your personal life. What is it like for you when every few years there's a round of fresh think pieces and writing and someone publishes a book and it becomes reviewed everywhere? There's a bunch of articles about rethinking monogamy. What about this lifestyle? What does this mean? You're laughing. Am I making that up? Are we in one of those moments? No, that's a real thing.

I always think about it like a rising tide raises all boats. That's not I don't have to say that anybody else who feels differently about it doesn't have a valid viewpoint. But I remember when the Fifty Shades of Gray books first came out, yeah, maybe those books were terrible kink, but they brought people to experts to school them on actual kink. And I'm okay with that because even if it just unlocks the conversation, which is something I try to do, if I'm ever in a newspaper or a magazine or whatever it is, I always tell people, Use me as an example if you want to have that conversation. Just say, Wow, baby, I've read this article about this guy. How do you feel about that? And then let that start the conversation that you wanted to have anyway. So if it ends up being a bunch of think pieces about people who are repeating the same thing the last round of think pieces do, if that puts somebody in my awareness that I can help, I'll go with it.

Dr. Lex, what's always in the think piece is?

It's always, is this a solution to somebody who is not able to maintain a monogamous relationship? If they're violating boundaries, they're like, Maybe we should open it up. Maybe we should, do you get a quote unquote, cheat back? That's a thing that always comes up. Is it cheating if somebody's polyamorous? Is it something that's an orientation? Or can you force yourself to be polyamorous as something that comes up all of time? Is it only about sex?

Another one is, I was depressed. Things were going wrong. Everything was terrible. And then, you know what I mean? It's actually a person with many other things going on.

That are looking for a solution, right? They're like, Will this solve us? I always say, a threesome, a ring, a house, or a new car, and a new baby are not going to solve your relationship issues. Then if you want to go out and amplify that with multiple relationships, you're still going to have the same issues. Now, you're just going to have the same issues with multiple people.

What I hear is a lot of people saying that they're also fed up with dating, and they're fed up with people being like, I'm an open relationship, on their profile or whatever. I do hear people who are fearful of manipulation. Can you guys speak to that a little bit? Is that an unfounded fear? Are there ways that this is being weaponized in relationships?

When I discovered that I wanted to be polyamorous, like I said, I did all of the reading. I wanted to make sure I got it right. This wasn't This wasn't something where I wanted to drop the ball in the relationship, find myself back in monogamy. But there are also lots of us, lots of guys, mostly cisgender guys, who will straight up tell someone I am polyamorous and what they mean is, I will not commit to you. Polyamory isn't an absence of commitments. It's making multiple commitments. The idea that someone might just be like, Oh, well, yeah, I'm polyamorous. Someone who is not doing that research, someone who is not educating themselves, someone who is just using a word to die to a commitment, that's a manipulation. And that's the same manipulation that's been drilled into us. We always feel we become Batman when it comes time to find a new way to manipulate a shorty into bed or manipulate someone into our lives somehow. And saying you're polyamorous is a new way to do that. I think it should start a conversation. If someone says, I'm polyamorous, you have to ask, what does that mean to you?

And if you don't get an answer that is reasonable and cohesive to your life and the way you want to live, you should be that person. Thank you for your time. Pay the check and hop in a cab. Absolutely.

Can you add to that? Other than applause, honestly, I think that's interesting. But how do you think about this in terms of people being worried about that, people having experienced that? Is that something... We've talked about therapy speak on this show. Are there ways that this conversation about being open also can be wielded against people?

Absolutely. So not only in the dating where people are like, Oh, I don't really mess with anybody who's polyamorous because maybe they have been screwed over, manipulated before or used. We do see this discrimination happening at work where people are like, Oh, you're not with our good Christian values and you're polyamorous, so you got to It's starting to recognize, who are you? What does this mean for you? People who are looking for committed relationships, people who might be more religious, people who might be more spiritual, who are like, I am dating specifically for marriage. Is that where you are? People are non-polyamorous. They're like, All right, I'm cool. We're not compatible. They're starting to find that out more about themselves and to lead with that in dating.

I was reading that Pew Research said in 2023 that 51% of adults under the age of 30 basically said an open marriage is acceptable. Just talking about general mainstreamness. Then there's a bunch of weird little reality shows about it. One difference I see is that if you think about the time when having open relationships was countercultural, it had a very different tone and how it was talked about in society versus today, which is also the... Even for LGBT couples, this is many years after the fight for legal marriage rights. I remember covering that, and that issue was always framed as, We want marriage. That marriage always looked an awful lot like heterosexual marriage, showing saying, Look, this is normal and we should have these rights, et cetera. But what it means is there was far less conversation around the way those communities might operate differently in a marriage because the idea was to copy heterosexual marriage. Today, it feels like it's not countercultural. It's part of a very mainstream chatter about self-actualization. You could take up yoga. You could also be in an open relationship, that those things are almost on par as long as they get you to who you really are.

I love that. It's my cynicism. Sorry, you just heard... Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

I love that. I also want to say, I think it's also a historical piece. I think as we learn more of history that exists, we learn more about polyamory, having multiple husbands, and that multiple cultures across the globe have practiced polyamory in some way, shape, or form. It's not just this made-up thing that people are using That's amazing.

But those are cultures we've also deemed backwards in some way and even out of a norm. Even some like, Norman communities experience this. But the idea has often been When this is something that is done in places where people are exploited or is fundamentally exploitive in some way.

I think it's a reclamation of culture, though. I think we're breaking the binary. I think we're moving away from this idea that it's right and wrong. You have to be married with a picket fence and 2.5 kids and a dog. Society is like, We don't actually want that. There's more. I was like, I don't want that. I can refuse that. This isn't who I am. Like you said, that self-actualization. So they're actually returning back to this weight. This actually brings me the most pleasure. I want pleasure. Pleasure is a right. There are other people who want pleasure in the same way. I can do this. And it is a pushback on this patriarchal, cishet, quote, unquote, normal way. I think we're realizing there's no normal way anymore.

And piggybacking off of that in terms of self-determination, self-actualization, something that the media says a lot about in terms of polyamory is the idea that you're picking and choosing, getting aspects of different people, plug and play relationships. What doesn't get said enough is that a lot of that is you choosing yourself. Whereas there are so many different... There's Kevin, the academic, there is Kevin, the geek, there is Kevin, the art connoisseur. And not every relationship that I'm in is going to speak to every one of those individual aspects of my personality, of my identity. So just being able to explore. When I was monogamous, was forever ago, I remember being with someone and I love them and I thought this was going to lead to marriage. I remember thinking, Kevin, the athlete dies if I marry this person. This person, nothing against them. They were great. We had a great relationship. But that was something in me that just would not be nurtured ever in this relationship. I didn't want Kevin, the athlete, to die. I didn't want Kevin, the any part, to die. Being in multiple relationships that each encourage me in different ways, I get to choose who I want to be and not in a In New York, I'm Frank, and in Chicago, I'm Ernest way.

Yeah. At the same time, why can't friendships fill that role?

I mean, friendships can, but friendships are often evolved organically, whereas my closest friends are a bunch of guys I went to Howard with. I still have to angle my experiences off of the things that we have in common. I'm not going to go find our new running friends. Just I'm going to go find a- But why not?

Dr. Leks, I know I'm being picky here, but do you hear what I'm saying? We have a way in our culture of saying that relationships, romantic, liminal, whatever, relationships have a specialness to them. Why can't friendships do that instead? I don't know if this is the wrong question to ask polyamory people, but tell me.

Well, I think they can, but I also have... I think friendships are boundary in a way. For example, I have a best friend that I've had. She says since fifth grade, I said since third grade. We are close. We call each other ultimate homies. We have matching tattoos. We have never been physical with each other. We don't have a physical relationship in the same way. If we make out, we are now dating and in a full-time relationship because of our intimacy, because of our vulnerability, because of our closeness. For us, that physicality is the boundary and the separation. I think she's beautiful, she thinks I'm beautiful, but we don't share intimacy physically in that same way.

You're saying it does change things?

I think it can.

Physical intimacy does have a catalyst effect of some kind.

I think it can. I think it can based on the person's boundaries. For us, that's our boundary because that's our friendship. But I think for romantic relationships, too long have they been held on this, this is the top tier best relationship you can have. If your friendship escalates, then it's top tier and different. I'd like to flatten that hierarchy. I think all relationships are really important and really valuable. And so polyamorous people can't help being polyamorous. It's an innate feeling. It's a desire. It's a connectivity. And operating from this idea that love is abundant versus love is scarce, lends to having really beautiful, full relationships that can be romantic. Because remember, people that are ace, asexual, are also polyamorous.

I'm talking to Kevin Patterson, author and practicing polyamorous, and sex therapist, Dr. Lex Brown-James. Back in a moment.

We all do things our own way. And since the way that each of us sleeps is unique, you need a bed that fits you just the right way. Sleep Number smart beds make your sleep experience as individual as you are using cutting-edge technology to give you effortless high-quality sleep every night. Jd Power ranks Sleep Number number one in customer satisfaction with mattresses purchased in-store. And now, during Sleep Number's President's Day sale, saved 50% on the Sleep Number limited edition smart bed plus special financing for a limited time. For JD Power 2023 award information, visit jdpower. Com/awards only at sleepnumberstores or sleepnumber. Com. See store for details. When you work, you work next level. When you play, you play next level. When it's time to sleep, Sleep Number smart beds are designed to embrace your uniqueness providing you with high-quality sleep every night. Sleep next level. Jd Power ranks sleep number number one in customer satisfaction with mattresses purchased in store. Now, during sleep numbers, President's Day sale, saved 50% on the sleep number limited edition smart bed plus special financing for a limited time. For JD Power 2023 award information, visit JDpower. Com/awards, only at sleepnumbersores or sleepnumber.

Com. See store for details.

It's The Assignment. I'm Audi Cornish, and I'm speaking with sex therapist Dr. Lex Brown-James, and practicing polyamorous and author, Kevin Patterson. What are some of the obstacles you hear or challenges you hear from heterosexual men in particular? I'm asking this because I know this is something you've paid attention to. So much about marriage is connected to masculinity, let's just say, in Western modern culture. You needed to sign off on your wife having a credit card in the '60s. There was this element, right? Your dad handed you off to a man. There was so much about it that was about possession, physical, financial, et cetera.

So people Therein lies the problem. Therein lies the challenge where I came to non-monogamy in my early 20s, and the ownership aspect that's drilled into us as sisters transgender young men is so overwhelming that it was so much that it had to be unlearnt in terms of possession, in terms of ownership, in terms of honesty. I'm so used to the messaging that I have to be dishonest to get what I want in my relationship. I'm so used to the messaging that I've got to find a way to trick somebody into doing what I want them to do. Meaning what? I'm learning all of that. Meaning that if I want to get laid, I might have to misrepresent myself.

Right. Courtship has built into it facades. Yeah.

And that's something that we've gotten a lot of. I remember Chris Rock in a standup special saying that first date, you're not meeting them, you're meeting their representative. And as a result, unlearning that and learning that emotional literacy and communication, honesty and respect, just integrity across the board is the most important tool you have in your relationship toolbox. If I'm not communicative, if I'm not listening to what she's saying, if I'm not telling her what I need her to hear, I'm going to have a bad time. Thankfully, I've escaped relationship drama for years at a time, just leaning into the integrity and the communication of the situation.

Dr. Alex, you're not Can you talk about the problems that arise when couples jump into this, or even singles jump into this? When people try and move into this process without thinking very much about it, or because they've read a very cool memoir, are, and then they end up on your couch, what are the things that usually have happened?

Oh, my gosh. Do you want the list?

Okay, let's start with the list. Yes.

Actually, a bulleted list, and then we can break some of the down. Somebody felt unattractive in their threesome. Somebody paid more attention to another person and wasn't equal time because they had this idea that there's going to be equal. It's always going to be an equilateral triangle, and it's sometimes an isosceles triangle. It has a right angle in it. Somebody felt somebody was a little too gay. I knew you like girls, but I didn't know you like girls that much. Now, do you still like this pain because you like girls too much? Now I feel intimidated and uncomfortable. Somebody got with somebody's best friend, and so now it's like, Have you always wanted my best friend? Did you really want me? Is this something... Now we feel threatened? Somebody said, I told you I was polyamorous when we first started dating, but I decided to go act out on my polyamory, even though I didn't tell you about it. But because I told you six years ago that I was polyamorous, it's now okay. I don't understand why you're mad.

I'm having a heart attack. I'm literally having... I can feel my heart beating. I also listen to these relationship podcasts, right? Shout out to Where Should We Begin, Esther Pirel. In those moments, I just feel like I can see how someone can fall into it, but I also can't. You gave me that bulleted list. Where do you start with those kinds of conversations? Because it just feels like that's way beyond... They're not even ready to do any polyamory. They've done the basics of talking to each other.

Oh, you're right. When, so people don't like it, but usually with most sessions, I take sex right off the table. I'm like, Hey, you're not allowed to have sex with anybody but yourself. That means you can't help. That means you can't reach out. No. They're like, But Dr. Likes today? My birthday. I was like, You all better get it in before midnight because I need everybody to pull back. We talk about the trust because that's what happens. Somebody feels betrayed. Somebody feels unheard, unseen, and disrespected. We have to heal that and get a stable base before we're going to go out and add something to this.

How do you think about polyamory as being being emotional work? And are people ready for that?

Yeah. I mean, every time somebody asks me, and it's primarily cis guys, but when they ask me about my polyamory, what they're looking for is wild porn stories. And trust me, those stories do exist. I'm a pretty slutty dude. But at the same time, when I know that that's what they're looking for, I tell them about emotional labor. I tell them about days where I've had to help somebody through a job crisis and then switch text message windows and then be sexy with one friend and then switch text message windows and help somebody who's grieving the loss of somebody or just having idle chatter with somebody who needs to hear some idle chatter at the time. You've got to be different people to different relationships, and then you still have to carve out time to be yourself and manage your own situation, manage your own bandwidth.

What do they say to you?

They get bored very quickly because they were looking for wild porn stories.

I think Bell Hook said that boys are the first victims of patriarchy because they have to castrate their feelings. A lot of my work sometimes, especially when I think about cis men, is giving them permission to feel anything beyond just okay and anger and to be able to express that and how to express that. Then also sometimes teaching, specifically, I would say cis women, that that vulnerability is not a weakness. It's actually what you've been asking for and looking for. Sometimes they're like, What? We can't weaponize their vulnerability against them.

Kevin just gave a great example of what other men are looking for when they talk to them about this. What are women looking for from each other when they inquire about this? What are they looking to hear?

When I think about the women in my office that have been considering polyamory and opening up their relationships, often it's to satiate some curiosity because they've been closeted in some way, shape, or form with their attractions, with being able Sometimes they've only been with one person, and their sex life and their relationship hasn't been fulfilling to a point where their lead would like to explore somebody. I'm thinking about athletic Kevin. Let's say they have athletic lover. Maybe they want artsy lover, and they know that their lover that's athletic will never be the artsy lover. But this is a quintessential thirst for them. It's something that they want. Maybe they want to experience what it's like to be loved by somebody of the same gender. But they've been married and they have kids, and they're like, How do I get to do this? And how do I get to explore this side? With women, specifically claiming more about their pleasure and realizing that, A, pleasure is not a dirty word, and that, B, pleasure is a right, I see women saying, I would really like to go out with this really hot chick I met. Can I do that and it not be threatening to us?

They're seeking out permission to know that, one, it's okay, and that, B, it's actually something they can do. It's It's feasible.

The flip side of Kevin's people wanting war stories, so to speak, what I hear often in the memoir writing and the think piece in this specifically by people describe cisgender women, is It's like escape. My life is X, and I want to try this other thing, this other version.

I don't know if it's escape as much as adding to. I still want to keep this role as whatever, wife, mother, lawyer, doctor, blah, blah, blah. And there's a piece of me that needs to be nourished. Can I add that piece in in this way?

And the thing about it is the way it's viewed is if my partner wants to open up the relationship, they no longer want me, this relationship is over. When the viewpoint could be, and hopefully for some people is, this person needs to explore, they want to also go on that journey with me. Because when the break happens, the exploration happens for both of those people anyway. If you're already going to go and learn and explore and go work out and figure out what you want for the rest of your relationship life, you could also do that with the person that you want to spend the rest of your relationship life with. Where there's so much that my wife cannot get out of me and there's so much that I cannot get out of her. But we've made a choice to take that journey with one another, and she gets to tell me about all the stuff she gets into that I can't provide for, and I get to see the enthusiasm on her face and be excited for her, and then she gets to be excited for me in that same way.

I think we need to recognize that, one, polyamory is a legit form of relationship building, sharing, and loving. Then also, two, that our youth are doing it, too. Our youth, high school and college kids, are practicing forms of polyamory where they're like, Yeah, we all know about each other. We're in a relationship. Me and this person are in a relationship, and me and this person are in a relationship, but they're not in a relationship together. That's okay. Teaching them that it's a legit model that they can actually engage with, that it takes a lot of communication, trust building, and being able to identify what your own needs are and listening to other people's needs and that it's okay.

My God, I'm terrified. It's not that I don't think it's okay for them to do that, but I just remember being absolute crap at relationships at that age. You already don't know what you're doing. The idea that you're going to not know what you're doing with three people at once just seems like very much ahead of you.

You got to remember, these kids are more educated than we were. These kids are reading things. These kids are seeing things in media. These kids are talking more. They're organizing entire movements through Twitter and Instagram. They are way more informed than we ever were. They got the talks. We have sex-positive parents now. We have podcasts and websites, and they have polyamorous parents. They have multiple types of different families, so they're much more equipped than any of us were growing up.

Dr. Lex Brown-James is a sex therapist. Kevin Patterson is the author of Loves Not Colorblind: Race and Representation in Polyamorous and Other Alternative Communities. It's been practicing polyamory for two decades. That's it for this episode of The Assignment. Remember, we love hearing from We love getting feedback about our show's ideas and assignments you want us to take on, and you can send them to us at 202-854-8802. Call, text, leave us a voice memo, whatever you're comfortable with, and we might even use your message on the show. The Assignment is a production of CNN Audio. This episode was produced by Lauryn Galloretta. Our senior producer is Matt Martinez. Our engineer is Michael Hammond. Dan Dizula is our Technical Director, and Steve Liktai is the executive producer of CNN Audio. We got support from Haley Thomas, Alex Manisari, Robert Mather's, John Dianora, Lenny Steinhard, Jamis Andres, Nicole Ressa Ruh and Lisa Namaral. Special thanks, as always, to Katie Hinman. I'm Audi Cornish, and thank you for listening.

We all do things our own way. And since the way that each of us sleeps is unique, you need a bed that fits you just the right way. Sleep Number smart beds make your sleep experience as individual as you are, using cutting-edge technology to give you effortless high-quality sleep every night. Jd Power ranks Sleep Number number one in customer satisfaction with mattresses purchased in store. And now, the Queens Sleep Number C4 smart bed is only 15.99. Save $300 only for a limited time. For JD Power 2023 award information, visit JDPower. Com/awards. Only at a Sleep Number store sleepnumber. Com.