Here with me today, podcaster and author, Kara Swischer. Rihann Salam, President of the Manhattan Institute, and National Review contributing editor. New York Times Journalist and podcast host, Lulu Garcia-Navarro, and editor of The Dispatch and Los Angeles Times columnist, Jona Goldberg. Welcome back, everyone. Thank you. Cara, why should Nikki Haley stay in the race?

Why not? There's no downside for her. She's already burnt the boats with these statements she's been making. It's not like she's going to get be vice president or a cabinet position. And for the future, it's better for her to be in and keep talking about the issues that matter to her and also to create a contrast in case something happens. Again, as I said, it's the non-zero chance that something could happen. And so why not do it?

Yeah, but if something did happen, and we're talking about a conviction or a health event, isn't Nikki Haley the last person the MAGA base of this party would go for?

Perhaps, but I think it just raises her profile. There's nobody else. She can talk. She can get well She gets interviewed. There's no downside here for her to do this, and she has the money.

I think there's a downside, and I'll tell you what it is. If you look at the latest poll, you see that now 36% of Republicans have a negative view of Nikki Haley, as opposed to 34% that have a positive view. You're actually seeing the longer she campaigns, the less Republicans actually like her. She's losing ground, not gaining ground. If she wants to be the standard bearer of the Republican Party in its current incarnation. I think that's not really working.

Let me bring in Rihann. Does Nikki Haley have a good reason to stay in the race, even if she loses, as expected she will by a large margin, tonight in South Carolina, and even if she loses on Super Tuesday?

I'd say that the best, strongest reason for her to stick around is to look to the experience of someone who's very different from Nikki Haley. That's Bernie Sanders. Bernie Sanders ran for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2016. He was considered an absolute no-hoper at the time, and he stuck in the race until July. Now, Bernie Sanders was not ultimately the Democratic nominee. He didn't win in 2020. What he did do, however, is build a real movement within the Democratic Party. If Bernie Sanders hadn't run in 2016, for better or for worse, we wouldn't have Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. We wouldn't have a slew of self-described Democratic Socialists in the party, pushing the party leftward, pushing even moderate middle-class Joe Biden far to the left when it comes to his actual policy agenda. The precedent here could be that Nikki Haley is actually trying to find that traditional conservative Reagan Republican lane and say that, wait a second, right now, it's Trump who is the establishment within the party, and we represent a different direction. I'm not saying that's necessarily going to happen, but that's a pretty reasonable reason for her to stick around.

I think Rohann's right, though I don't like the analogy to Bernie Sanders, I would make the analogy more to Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan ran in '76 and created a faction within the Republican Party that said, Okay, it's our turn now. Nikki is setting herself up that even if she loses, which she almost surely will, barring some deus ex machina, she's setting herself up at minimum to be able to say, I told you so. As someone who has very little concern about the Republican Party these days, but does want a healthy, right of center political party in this country, you need some check on Trump if he's going to be the nominee, and creating a faction within the party that is not automatically pro-Trump in every regard is a good thing for the country.

Then there's Trump's move to declare the race over by challenging President Biden to start debating now. But Trump skipped the GOP debates, and Biden has dismissed Trump as someone outside political norms who tried to overturn the last election. Lulu, should Biden debate Trump?

Yes. I'm saying this as a journalist because I believe, and also as someone who believes in democracy. I think I've had There's a big problem with the fact that Trump has not wanted to participate in any of these GOP debates. I think it's been good for him. I think he managed to actually swell support and places him as the front runner. But I want to see a healthy debate. I want these two people to come together and actually talk about the issues.

Would you say if he clenches the nomination by mid-March, start now or wait till Labor Day?

No, I think you should wait. But let me just put a caveat here. I think Biden should debate Trump. I I also think it's very important how he debates Trump. I think I would like to see, first of all, it be with the fact-based media. I would like to see someone like you, Chris, perhaps, moderate it, perhaps someone like Kara, perhaps someone like me, just saying. The second thing I would like to see is that I'm not sure that I would like to have it be with the rabble-rousing public. I mean this from the far left and the far right.

Those pesky voters.

Yeah, but those pesky voters, if they were just regular voters, that's That's one thing. But what we're going to see now is perhaps agitators on both sides, on the left, maybe people who are angry at Biden over the issue of Gaza, and on the right, maybe people who are very much pro-Trump.

Jona, should the President of the United States share a stage with someone and accord that standing, that platform, to someone who says he didn't lose the last election, it was stolen?

I honestly don't No. There are two different questions here. One is, is it in Biden's political interest? Then that is predicated on the question of, is he physically up to doing it? I think there's good reason to believe his people don't think he is. If he wasn't willing to do a typically softball interview for the Super Bowl, they may have real concerns, rightly or wrong, that doing an hour-long debate with Donald Trump, he may not have the stamina for it, the cognitive condition to do it. That said, I think the fact that Donald Trump didn't debate in the primaries and that Donald Trump has basically refused to concede the election and said the election was stolen, it gives him an excuse not to debate Trump that I think most of the Biden gettable voters would forgive.

If Joe Biden doesn't participate in debates, that is a tell that Democrats are thinking hard about a plan B. If there were some open primary, as reclined columnist at the New York Times, Lulu's colleague, has floated this idea that, wait a second, If you have a new Democratic nominee emerge in the late summer, early fall, that's something that could really change the dynamic of the race.If.

His folks, if his party are so deeply pessimistic about whether or not Biden can handle himself, the bar would be so low.

If Biden agreed to take part in a debate and was basically sticking to his talking points more or less competently, that would be huge.

This debate is going to happen. They are going to have a debate, and it's going to be after Labor Day, and Biden is still the candidate at this point. I know everybody loves all these different little scenarios, but that's where we are right now, and it seems that that's where we're going. Biden's actually been out and about a lot more lately, which is interesting. He's got to debate him. He can't refuse to debate him. It is a bad look if he doesn't. If I were him, I'd go with my come on, man, attitude. Like, come on, man, you're a liar. Come on, man, you're crazy. And do that contrast.

If he does it, that would be a big help.

Yeah. I want to just bring up one more question. Every Trump indictment, Jona, has solidified Trump's support inside the Republican Party. But with the death of Navalny, Trump is now comparing his legal troubles to what Navalny went through in a Siberian prison. Question, is the MAGA base going to buy the Navalny comparison?

I think the people who have drank the Kool-Aid will, or at least to forgive it as they forgive all sorts of rhetorical excess from Trump. I will say that I'm pretty profoundly disgusted by the Amen corner, Amen choir that Trump has had with these comparisons. We have people like Newt Gingrich basically saying that we are morally equivalent to the Soviet Union or to Putin's Russia. It's the anti-Americanism that my crowd used to criticize of the left.

I'm sorry to say, I think he has a point. I think that if you're a New Yorker right now, think about whether or not you have any conservative candidates in a blue state. What's going to happen to you? Thinking about the targeting, or if you're a left-wing candidate in a red state, this is something that's going to set a dangerous precedent.

Well, I got to say, the MAGA base likes grievance, though. It does sell.