Hi, everybody, welcome to Don Snow's history here. This is New Year's Day, this is going out on the 1st of January 20, 21. May be a better year than last year.

That's all I can say. That's what we often say. That's a thought. Anyway, so we've got a big, long episode for you today. Andy McNab is the name taken by the best selling author, highly decorated former British soldier, Special Forces operative and very celebrated figure from the first Gulf War and beyond.

Andy McNab wrote a book called Bravo two Zero that sold millions of copies about his experiences on an SS patrol in Iraq during the first Gulf War.

He was captured, he was interrogated, he was tortured, and then he was finally released. At the end of that conflict, he went on to write lots of other books, nonfiction and fiction.

He has the most extraordinary life story, as you'll hear.

Thank you very much for him for letting me rub it on for so long term. This is just well, it's a remarkable story. As you'll hear. It's not for the faint hearted. You might well have a quick listen before you let any kids listen to it. In the meantime, I hope you get their twenty, twenty one off to a great start wherever you are in the world.

If you want to take up our January sale offer on history hit TV, now's the time. Use the code January. It's good for a few more days. January and you get a month for free and an 80 percent off your next three months. So please check that out. In the meantime, everyone, here is Andy McNab.

Andy, thanks so much for coming on this podcast. Pleasure, thank you. Oh, you've been a hero of mine ever since. One of those one I read Bravo two zero and I was a teenager and obviously it changed my life. You've gone on to write lots more bestsellers. We'll talk about those. But you spent more of your life being a writer now than being a soldier. Is that was that weird?

It is really, really weird. Yeah, really weird. It's quite it's quite interesting. Certainly in the 90s, there was a time where it was over 90 percent of the infantries intake was because of they've read Bravo two zero as young men. So now you sort of meet in those guys, you know, used to meet it earlier on and they sort of, you know, early in their careers. And now they're senior NGOs and they paid in the army forever or in 22 years out, you know, and they join because of Bravo.

Yes. Yes. Really freaky.

And do they ever say, hang on, mate, you sold me a dodgy bill of goods. Are you going to carry around the desert in Iraq that always goes on?

Absolutely. So it's it's the parents of say even now is parents of young men and women who want to join the army because they've read, you know, the books and and you don't know whether they're sort of congratulating me or warning me. You know, this is quite so. It's a weird mixed area.

Speaking of back when you joined the infantry back in the day, you wrote you've written about that beautifully in a couple of your books, but it was the old fashioned army. They wanted people that were in trouble, the older kids in trouble. Qualifications weren't that important. You've written that you were you know, if it hadn't been for the Army, your life would have been very different.

Yeah, it's you know. Well, they were recruited out of the juvenile detention system, was called the postal system at the time. And I was a product of the, you know, the postal system and then a product of the army.

And it was at that stage, your sort of levels of of academic achievement wasn't really a big deal. And in fact, somebody with a reading age of a five year old as a as a, you know, 17 or 18 year old was eligible to join the infantry. And and now it's gone up a bit. Now it needs to be a key stage two, which is about an 11 year old. But at that stage, it was like, just get him in.

And there was a there was there was a sort of a social contract at that time as well, because the Balsom system was all about something called the short, sharp shock. So it wasn't about rehabilitation, education in theory, what it was to scare, but basically, you know, teenage kids into not reoffending. And clearly the system didn't work.

So there was this movement by, you know, sort outside bodies that was lobbying government to say, look, you got to get in and do something with these in effect in these teenage kids. So the army was one of those those groups that came into the bookstores to try and do something, you know, in and effect, get some sort of, you know, social mobility.

You've experienced social mobility. You know, you couldn't have had a tougher start in life. Can you tell a tell the listeners, you know, your your origin story?

Well, yeah, I was I was I was an abandoned baby, so I was I was found outside guys hospital and I was sort of, you know, about two days old. So I went into care as a baby. And then eventually I was adopted in a family and lived in south east London. Basically, for the rest of my time, we sort of went to nine different primary schools at that time. She was always moving around. So I never really got any sort of, you know, consistency, continuity, whatever you want to call it in, you know, education and sort of family life.

And that's why I wanted like everybody else, I just wanted the money without sort of realising you had to get an education to to get a decent job to earn it. So that's why I ended up in in in the bookstore system. It was all part of a free court at that time, juvenile delinquents.

And they were going to, you know, sort it all out now that your, you know, successful, rich, famous, do you think about trying to find your your your birth family?

No, I don't. It it's it's interesting. My my elder brother, not natural brother, also was adopted, was from the same home and he sort of because my mom was a cleaner at the home and literally you could do all they could like take kids home for the weekend. It was bizarre. You know, it never happened now. So what became my older brother was in the same home and he would disappear off to this this couple and the cleaning lady and he sort of, you know, moved in, was adopted.

Then I came in and because he was never interested in that, because what he said, he said, well, you know, these are these are our parents. So why do I have to worry about the ones that wanted nothing to do with you sort of thing? So and now I understand, you know, I don't know the reasons why, but I understand that it probably was sort of, you know, quite an emotional sort of, you know, part in, you know, with my mother, all that sort of stuff.

But actually, they're the ones who sort of took me in from the home, bought me exactly same as my older brother. So I thought it was good enough for him, good enough for me. And it's it's never been a major issue, although you obviously you want that.

I mean, I guess you weren't happy. I mean, you got kicked out of schools. I mean, it was a. Something was churning up inside. Yeah, what it was, was was always in in in my head, even even as a you know, since I could remember, you know, as a as a four or five year old, you know, certainly at home was a like a waiting room. Everything would be all right.

And then I'll move on. So when I when I was adopted, it became again it was like a waiting room and sort of, you know, at 16, I'll leave, you know, I'll leave that home and then go some go somewhere else. So there was always an urge to go and do or be something else because it's and always an optimist, you know, everything would be all right sort of thing. So I'll you know, I'll just give it a go.

So it wasn't as if it was a you know, I've arrived. We certainly one and adopted. I would arrived. It was great. You know, I wasn't sort of, you know, physically sexually abused, none of that sort of stuff. In fact, the opposite.

I had loads and loads of freedom in in in a council of states we lived in.

But it was just that sort of, well, what I'm 16 and I'll leave here and then go and do something else.

Impatient. Yeah, it was a bit because there was always something there was always something better to do, but it wasn't as if I knew what it was. Well, certainly as a until I joined the army, really, I didn't really know anything out of well, south London, really.

You know, I went Margate once when I was a kid, went to the seaside once, and that seemed miles and miles away. So everything was sort of quite contained. So I didn't, you know, know what was over that over the hill. But I know there wasn't exactly a burning ambition to do it. But I knew it's there and I'll be having a look one day. So that's okay. So when I'm 16, I'll I'll go and have a look sort of thing.

I read an interview with you a while back, and it's funny because you're now you're now a bestselling author. But you could I mean, you're reading you came to reading very early on in your in your teenage years. Yes.

Yes. At sixteen. And it was it was the army. And this one is sort of a huge advocate of army education, really. It's the recruiting film I saw fantastic recruiting film, helicopter pilot, you know, small little helicopter, little scout, which was one of these little bubble perspex helicopters. It was flying low over the the beaches of Cyprus. Not that anybody knew where Cyprus was. Didn't look great. So he's flying over. And then the guy said, you know, like it must be a helicopter pilot.

And, yeah, we will put our hands up in bookstall. And you said you went away for three days to Sutton Coldfield, to the assessment, the Army Assessment Centre, and it was very, very clear, all of us from from the borstal, the deal was if you got accepted into the army, you wait for your release, your your joining date. Sorry. And then he was released from an institution. You went home, went back to get your kit, but that was about it.

So the big deal was we're all going to be helicopter pilots got Sutton Coldfield for these three days of physical and academic tests. And it was very clear that, you know, we're going to get close enough to this helicopter and fly the thing. So I was offered a place in the in the green jackets.

We're happy to offer you a place as an infantryman. As an infantryman. Yeah, great. Yeah, it's like a football team.

So I went and again, so I didn't take too much interest in the the the films that you were watching when you done this day assessment and all that you know about a different regiment tonight, because all I wanted to do was get a box to celebrate. Yeah, OK. And it wasn't until I joined what was then called an infantry junior leaders battalion. And the part and, you know, part of that year's training, which I didn't realise until about three months in, was that you went back to school and I'm thinking, right.

The Army's rip me off now I'm back to school, you know, but the guy that is the educator at that time, the Army Education Corps guy, not only changed my life, but everybody there really because he said, look, you know, everybody outside the other side of the wire. And he kept on point in that defence. And there was a place called Cheran, a little town, a little village over the other side of the playing field.

All that lot over there. Think, you know, I think it's a little bit more flowery, of course. And I was in the army, but, you know, said the only reason you can't read and write is because you don't read and write. And today it all changes. And it was then because he explained to us the reason why we were in infantry and not flying helicopters, that we all like the reading ages of between a seven and an 11 year old, which is now key stage to within the education system.

And it sort of all made sense to me then because it was like, oh, squaddies, you know. Well, every break, you know, this mid-morning sort of bright, you start kidney pie and a pint of Vimto at the Nafie because you can't have alcohol work in that anyway. But obviously where we were, you know, 16, 17 year olds. So I've got a Sun newspaper squaddies read The Sun and then so, you know, clearly then this page for there was a lot to read anyway.

So it turned out the sports pages and there were actually there were words. We really didn't get, you know, so I used to make up what they were and obviously get the, you know, the whole sort of narrative from what was going on in whatever it was a sports or story, it it sort of dawned on me, yeah, OK, I get it now.

No one in this industry, Junior Leaders Battalion and the first book we all read, we were all given a copy of this book, John and John Book Ten, which was a book for primary school kids and not a lot of text, no picture on one side, a paragraph and the other. And you went through this brother and sister, Janet and John. What I'm getting up to, we all had the week to go through it and read it because the education went on.

It was it was almost like night school, you know. So you do your military training and then free day free times a week. You then go to the Army Education Center. So on Friday, individually, we went up, read the book to the to the educa, read the the vocabulary on the back, spelt the words, explain what he meant. And he went right. I said, OK, I close the book which he did.

Yes sir. Many army closed the book and he said, well, remember the feeling you're going to get back tonight in the block. You live in these like 24 sort of blocks and the finish. You know what? I've just read a book, and he didn't kill me. And I went, yes, and. But he was right. Absolutely right.

And then it was then where? I realized, and because I was told, rather than realize that it could be the best soldier on the planet, but unless you get certain academic qualifications, which during your short career promotion levels, you're never going to get promoted. So there was this incentive to get an education, but actually when it started, it became infectious, you know, like a snowball effect. And it sort of, you know, it was fantastic.

And and that's what really sort of kicked it off. And I think certainly, you know, even during the special Air Service, you know, the you know, the junior leaders battalion was about 100 soldiers, the battalion, you know, regiment, you know, on a good day, about 600. Then the education said that it was bigger than the one Idleb, you know, because it was all about education. You know, it doesn't work.

And unless you know what you're doing, you're right.

Janet and Janet and John. Jan and 17 Brookton. Yeah. Yeah. It's nearly nearly 70.

Nearly 16. You're now I'm not a soldier. Be very young. And you have written how many books in total.

Now with the young adult books, it's about 34 and sold.

How many million. About 33 million.

Well, congratulations. Thank you.

So, so but you know, the interesting thing about your Army career, if you go and talk about your Army career now is that you had a you had a pretty extraordinary career even before Saddam Hussein ever invaded Kuwait.

I mean, tell me a little bit about what you were up to in the 80s.

Yeah, well, it's obviously I joined an infantry battalion and in a war of choice at that time was Northern Ireland. And so as a as literally on my my 18th birthday, the battalion were already in place, a location, a town called Crossmaglen in South Armagh at that time. They got there about three weeks beforehand. And by then you had to be 18 to go on one of these, what they call emergency tours, because there were so many 17 year old soldiers that had been killed in years previously.

So I went there on my 18th birthday and then done that. You know, at that time it was called bandit country. And, you know, because there was no vehicles that would move around because they were always getting bombed. Everything was by helicopters and literally you'd be patrolling the town. That would be a 24 hour presence on the town. So mortars couldn't be driven into more of the security base. You'd be doing these 24 hour patrols in the town or then patrolling the border.

So you patrol the border in the daytime and then convention like conventional infantry work, unless they start setting up ambushes at night on the border. So I was sort of this great introduction into this world. And these emergency talks for us were once a year because we were based in Tidworth, the big garrison town in Minnesota. We playing on the Hamshire Wilkshire border. And so I came back from that tour. And, you know, the opportunity to taken casualty is our commanding officer was shot down in a helicopter.

All these things were going on, but actually come back and I had about a thousand pounds, 18000 pounds.

It was amazing because, you know, you you buy soap and toothpaste and that's it. You know, for sort of nothing no more than five months is normally about four and a half months from now that all the secondhand car dealers are rubbing their hands. When you get back to the garrison town so you buy a heap of a car, nobody's insurance a more tax in a I think because literally within six months you're getting ready for the next door. Or so again, it was back to a place called Keating in South, far more.

And it was then there was the I was 19 by then. I was going back for the second tour. Southam, I was it was a was a winter. So this was a summer tour. So it was a bit better. And it was there where we had a few sort of contact, you know, firefights, bits and pieces. But there were always big things, you know, what happen and you're not really too sure what's going on.

So there's an element of excitement in that. But in creating quite a close contact with a provisional IRA active service unit. So it's the first time that they've actually killed somebody when I was 19. So there was a there was a big house and stay obviously on the edge of the town on the on the the side where the border was, because Castle Blaney was literally about ten minutes away in the south. So I just turned the corner come out the what we call the cards coming out of the the if you like, the countryside coming back into the the southern part of town in charge of what I call a brick, which is like a four man patrol said just come round round the corner.

And there was a huge amount of civilians waiting on on the other side of the the houses on the other side of the road, which was normal because on a Friday and Saturday night, buses would come and pick them up. They got Castle Blaney to play bingo and have a night out. It was safer down there. And then they would they would come back. But then instead of sort of them just being there and not much happening, they all started screaming, shouting and running around.

And I looked left. And literally sort of, I don't know, seven, eight minutes away, there was there was a whole active service unit at the Provisional IRA, you know, masked up assault rifles and what they were doing with their in their PR back to the people in Castle Blaney. But they were just getting ready for a shoot for another patrol that was in the northern part and it was a cow truck. And what I do, they darma up the inside of the cattle truck and the rear tailgate was about three quarters high up.

And they would drive past the patrol as it's patrolling the streets as shoot, then pop up and start firing up the patrol. And then they would carry on going towards the border and they were literally doing their bit, getting out their cars to get into the cattle truck. So it turned into you know, it's in the films. It's all sort of all quite sort of organized. It's not it's within, you know, the parlance. It's just called a cabbie.

You know, they're just firing because they're not too sure what's going on. I'm just firing. I'm not too sure it's gone out. I run out of ammunition sort, so, you know, get on the ground trying to change magazines. And so there's this fire fight happened and there was one dead. There was two that were that were wounded. One of them was quite a famous terrorist at the time. We didn't learn until later on. You've got to I got Cortesio got him through the the hand.

And the joke always was was unfortunately shot. I mean, the left arm because he's right and it's OK, it's still fine. But it was just like this big cabined and, you know, trying to clear the area. You've got all the civilians now going mad because, you know, people are shooting, so they're trying to get away. It became quite a chaos. The interesting thing was that by nature, now we just expect it to happen all the time because the 24 hour news.

But, you know, this happened about six o'clock in the evening. You know, again, these these people get in the buses to go to Castle Blaney for the night and then by ten o'clock is on the news. And it's KEYT sort of, you know, doing a thing with a microphone, you know, interviewing people around Kadee about what happened. It was really freaky.

Can I ask what that was like? You know, taking taking a life? Yeah. You know, at the time, it's not as if it's all, you know, training took over and all that, you know, because you just firing and doing all that sort of stuff.

It what it was, was when it was all on the news and was sort of back in the back in the security force base and, you know, watching it on the news, already known that the that, you know, just one dead, two wounded, all that sort of stuff is already known.

Again, we're all sort of, you know, 18, 19, 20, 21, you know, sort of all young sort of guys. So it was an element of bravado about it. So it was like, great, you know, and also there was credibility for me because what was happening during that time, if you had what was called an A-1 arrest, which was the top twenty, you know, terrorists used to get these these montages of pictures, wanted pictures.

If you've got an A-1 arrest or you got a kill, you got two weeks to leave at the end. So before you done this call to rip relief in place where another battalion would come in and take over, which was always a pain because literally it'd be hot in and, you know, because everything's got to carry on. If you've got two weeks later, you would leave two weeks earlier. So you got out of that rip. So all of a sudden there was a credibility.

The first killer, that's all I got this two weeks leave, all that sort of stuff. And the fact that it's happened.

But what it was, was I felt at that stage, I couldn't say I didn't like it. They couldn't actually say, well, I want to do that again, because there was this whole sort of machine, you know, this bravado thing that goes on.

And and it actually it wasn't it wasn't until I joined a regiment quite early on, actually, when when I was there, when I was still a trooper.

And we've done a job in South East Asia. And there was there was a couple of guys who have been in regiment literally 16. Yes, 16 years. And they were guibord.

I wanna do that again. I was a bit er you know that.

And there is another, you know, through it I it was a bit for and then all of a sudden I realised it was alright.

Maybe I'm not too worried you know about not, not showing that you're worried about these sort of things. But at that stage, you know I just went with the flow really.

And because everybody wanted to know what went on and you know who was screaming, who wasn't and, you know, all that sort of stuff. So I just went on with it. So it was a weird sort of a weird thing.

But, you know, looking back, well, you know, again, because just a bunch of young men, really one of the many weird things I think about being in the army is you can end up you can end up having a fire fight on a on a on a civilian street. Yes. In your home country on a scale or your your peers at that time in the on the other side of the world, in the South Atlantic and the Falklands, it's the, you know, snowy peaks or in the desert.

I mean when you were that young, did you just think just go where Her Majesty said, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't you know, it wasn't nothing to do with, you know, queen country and all that sort of stuff.

I basically always looked at it as a as a mutual contract. So join the army. A bookstore, again, if they rip me off, because I thought you just signed up for three years at that stage, but if you join the junior leaders battalion, they wanted you for six years because they trained you for a year and they wanted to get that ritonavir something right.

I want to rip me off. But it became apparent during that time, Idleb, that what it is is a mutual contract. This is what they're giving me.

And it's everything from, you know, sort of, you know, pay to what I didn't realize that that's even pastoral care in a way of of looking after, you know, you got like a platoon sergeant Oleron. And you all day when you're doing your training.

And then at night he's got you all laid out in the bed because he wants to check your feet and make sure your feet are all right. You know, no one's checked my feet before, you know, that sort of.

And all of a sudden there's this sort of, you know, this this sort of care.

So you get all of the all of this stuff and and even a bed space.

You know, you pay for your bed space, you'd order, you know, food and some day as mine, you know, and and so it gave me that stuff. And then but this is what they want me to do. So and I've always had you know, it's affected as far as I was concerned, it was a fair contract.

And even, you know, time in a regiment was, well, you know, which is the big sort of, you know, the mantra there. Well, you know, it's nobody's mate. And you stay if you want to stay in life, you know, it's OK. Says thousands of people want to take your place. It's all right. So, yeah, it's a mutual contract.

God knows how many people tried to join the SS after you published your books, but your description of selection, it went on there is became sort of legendary and and I mean, how you know, how hard was that, looking back old were you when you decided to go for special?

I was 24 and am actually looking back a bit too young and a bit too cocky, actually. Yeah, it was 2004. And but basically during the infantry, I'd done all of the the stuff, if you like.

What were you do as an infantry? You know, I was by then I was 24 year old platoon sergeant, which was sort of young.

So I'd done all of the tactical courses and distinctions on this and, you know, a grade on this, that and the other. And so I've been at actually, I think probably promoted above my ability because it just didn't have the experience at 24 years old, platoon sergeant.

And I'd become what is known as and I didn't realize that at times called a pinnacle soldier, where basically you've done it and you think, well, what's next? You know, so and like everybody else, you know, I was all full of all of the horror stories of selection from people know ten times people who failed it and then come back.

And obviously they've exaggerated it to to sort of give them a reason why that why they felt so.

I thought, well, why not give it a go? Why not give it a go?

And it was one person in particular who went for selection who got in.

And we was all absolutely amazed. And we thought, what has chance for all of us? You know, this guy died as a chance for all of us.

So, yeah, I went a bit too of cocky and slightly overconfident.

So I was only 24 years old and already achieved quite a lot in infantry. And did you get in first time? No, I didn't know, and it was the cockiness that done it. The selection is just that very first month of the of the process, which is about a seven month process. So the second to last, I think, was sketch map, which is about a 35 kilometer tape. So that first month is all of the things we think of, you know, Black Mountains, Brecon Beacons, you know, with a burger, a rucksack and about Golberg and up and down the mountains map reading during sketch map, I took up what I thought was going to be a shortcut through a fire for a firebreak.

And it wasn't it was a very long cut because they chopped the trees and all the trees were in the in the firebreak. So I landed up at night sort of climbing through to try and make the distance. So that was they know my time as were rubbish. So, you know, the last day of that first month, a totally cocked it up you go for your interview with a trainee major and then what they'll do is they will invite you back.

You only got to go to that selection because if you continue to apply and fail, you're taking the place of someone you know, of a candidate who might actually get in. So you get and get invited back for a second selection.

And that's normally and they feel that their timings were good, but they got an injury. You know, they broke something, somebody like me. But I think. OK, right. Well, again, you know, is it cocked up? And so far the timing's been OK. So therefore I was invited back. So when I was I got a place because normally you have to wait about eight months. I've got a place straight into the next election, which was a winner one.

And again, all the horror stories about the winners elections, obviously because of the weather and the snow. And but actually, I found the winner one better than the summer one because even the racing snakes can't get through the snow, you know, a three foot snow. Everybody's doing the same thing, trying to fight through it. So I finally got through that that witness selection and, you know, very, very happy about the numbers. It's normally it's normally about sort of maximum 220 on this election, that first month.

And that's purely for health and safety reasons, really. You that amount of people on the on the hills. And from my selection there was from that first month, there was 24 of us left.

So I was very happy to be part of that 24 must be a hell of a thing getting that well.

What is it about the letter? Phone call? How do you get told that you've passed into the House?

Well, you know, it's it's it's really, really weird because it is not a big bit of anticlimax, really, because obviously you do that that that first month you understand you've got.

And so once you've done that insurance, which is this 62 kilometre, I think you get any insurance, you've got your watching now your time. And, you know, you say right. I've cracked it of cracked it.

So, you know, that's OK, because the next bit isn't so much about the sort of the if you like, the, you know, the determination and the physical fitness and the stamina. All those things is about attitude, whether you can get in. And the freaky thing about it, you know, you you're go to you spend a month in the jungle doing the, you know, learning how to work as a as a small, you know.

Forty six men between a jungle. You're never thirty days and it's all live ammunition, all that sort of stuff. There has been casualties over the years that, you know, people have been killed during that training process.

But you're never told how good or bad you're doing. So it's all about your effort. And literally after that, that jungle phase, I what felt the after that? Was it so you didn't know until you got back to the UK?

So we go back to Hereford, which is of the, you know, the headquarters special air service, and they say, right, we're all in this lecturer. And he said foreign people stand up.

So the ladder stood up. I'm looking, I'm thinking, right, they've passed. And then I was told to go. So it was it was eight of us that were still sitting down. And I think, OK, right. We've passed that bit and literally went, OK, you've passed. You know, what we're onto now is close call beltrame. So you get a weekend off. Great. And then you start on that and it's literally at the end of this process as it settles down with these different sort of things you've got to do.

We all turned up at the RSM office to go meet the commanding officer because we know we're getting badged. But I can't because we all come from different regiments. You know, regiment style made you stand at attention, but everything so sort of casual. We didn't know whether you stand at attention. You know, nobody knew. So it was all a bit sort of weird. And basically so he said, why are you going to go and see and see how he's going to badger and what I say?

And OK, so we went to the CEO's office door was opened and again, we didn't know if we had a machine walk it.

Nobody knew, you know, it was really, really weird.

And he just had these pile of of of berries, you know, the berries.

But there were anybody sort of active military you now they were Korngold and they. I like these things, you know, as big as sort of double duvets, nobody wears a kangal berry. You know, we've already got our berries from a place called Victor's beforehand, but we've got these berries out and he just Froom is Frisbees. And and he said, well, remember, it's harder to keep than again and, you know, enjoy squadrons. And that was it.

And we sort of all shuffled out and, you know, it was just, you know, there was guys from the squadrons then who were there ready to meet us just to take us up to the what we call the interest rooms, you know, the offices. And you just joined your squadrons. It was really, really weird. Really weird.

Is it very different, different kind of soldiering? I mean, you're mentioning, of course, less marching and saluting and all that. I mean, is it is it just very different to any other. Yes, it is. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's it's it seems casual because, you know, in some cases for months and months, you we be wearing uniform, you know, around Hereford, depending on what you're doing. Certainly if you're on a counterterrorism team, there's no uniforms, you know, and, you know, people walk around with long hair and beards and, you know, doing different jobs here and there.

But it what it's all about is self-discipline. So say a squadron sergeant major, same as any squadron major in the army. Go right. I'll say. Right, mate. Well, when you do, is this can you do that for me? What he's telling you is you will go from here if they go there. And that is what you'll do. He's telling you that. But it's in a different way. And you go, yeah, OK.

And off you go. So it's the discipline is a self-discipline.

And that's why, for instance, you know, if you go down drink driving, you get thrown out after you return a unit because the argument is, well, we haven't got the self-discipline to control yourself when you're out. So if you get drunk, drunk driver and there's a lack of self discipline. So what happens?

It was all about it could be. Very, very casual, you know, nobody wore rank and, you know, and everybody caught everybody by Christian names, you you'd call it. Well, basically you'd call the squadron commandos. It was a major and the the commanding officer. It was a lieutenant colonel. You call them boss. Sometimes you would call if you had a troop commander. Who a captain. Sometimes you'd call him boss, sometimes you wouldn't.

It all depends what he wanted and that was it.

But if, you know, if if if the troop sergeant's going right now, it's what I want to do is go to be there for nine o'clock. Were you there waiting for army time? You're there for five to nine. And the argument is if you're not there. Well, you don't want to be so leave symbols that you know, so for me, I thought it's fantastic because there was all that other stuff was out the way, you know, if you like, the traditional military sort of discipline.

And in a way, you know, it was up to yourself. There wasn't even any physical training, because the argument is, if you can't perform on a day, that's a lack of self discipline because you haven't been training. So you're out. Simple as that.

And then how long were you in the SAS before the first Gulf War?

I was in seven, seven years, seven or eight years, because other rank officers used to rotate through.

Right. But but other ranks could stay in. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yes, exactly. So what happens is, is officers do select their selection and they're normally at that stage, they're probably, you know, lieutenants or captains. And so they do selection like anybody else. Actually, they have a harder selection because they have a thing called Officers Week where they sort of quite sort of put under pressure and then they become a troop commander for troops in each squadron.

And, you know, there's never a squadron that's got four true commanders because of the selection process. But basically, troop commander comes in is a sort of, you know, the troop commander, the officer.

But actually what is therefore is not there to command the troops on on operations because he hasn't got what are called basic patrol skills to go on the ground.

But you don't need. Troop commanders, what you desperately need is the next level up, which is squadron commanders, which are the majors. So in effect, troop commanders are on selection again because it's the troops, seniors, you know, the senior NSC sergeants and staff sergeants within the troops to show them how it works, not only what you can do, but actually just as important what you can't do.

And it's their job to, if you like, train them up, because once they finish, they're free at all. They'll go back to their respective units, but there'll be another selection process that'll go on. So director of Special Forces are going.

Right.

Who out of this group do we then want coming back as a as a as a as a squadron commander? And there's a form of selection.

So troop seniors are involved. You know, the officer corps and specialist services are involved and it's not total democracy, but there's a democracy in it because the argument is, if you get a bad squadron commander, well, that's all your fault because you didn't show them and guide them and coach them to be one. So it really works quite well. So but so if you like the continuity, the senior NCO, because what happens is you do a three year tour, we do a year promotion, a three year tour, and then you literally get a little slip, a yellow paper asking you whether you want to do another three year tours, which you take.

Of course. Yes, they'll take, yes.

Then after that, there's a decision made whether you become what's called permanent cadre. So then you're a member fully of the special air service as opposed to having your shadow rank with your old regiment, because that six year point might go well, no, we don't want to postpone Carter. So so for the if you like the troops, that's quite a major, major point to become permanent cadre. And and by then, again, when you join, you lose all your rank.

So become a a trooper, you know, a private soldier.

And by then I was I was a seven year point before the Gulf started. I was a I was the troop sergeant.

Well, I called the troops, but we were you busy because people now have been busy ever since the since the fall of the Twin Towers and the war on terror. But were you busy back when you were horrific?

Yeah, it's basically the I, I remember the term that it's the maintenance of UK's interests overseas, basically.

So there's there's there's two operational cycles and one training cycle. So you have a train or an operational cycle, which will be the counter-terrorism team, which is, you know, anything between six and nine months. You're based in Hereford, you're in a half hour standby or three hour standby, and you train in every day.

You're training, you know, doing all that stuff that you see on film and TV, that sort of thing.

Ops two is where you do one or two or three things when you go out and you go and fight someone's conflict, you know, in fact, what happens is the British come and go. Right, well, come out.

We help you with that, or you go out and you train the indigenous folks to go and fight that conflict or you go out and you train them, but then you lead them in that in that in that in that conflict.

So looking back on it now, there's certainly the the 80s in the early 90s were quite a golden sort of era for those sort of operations.

So, you know, spent a lot of time in in Africa and and again, learnt Swahili, which nobody needed because everybody spoke, you know, Portuguese, French or English.

Everybody supported Manchester United. So there was this mutual sort of, you know, just if you don't understand, you got Manchester United and there of Columbia. We got involved in the what was called first strike at that stage, which was the the narcotics war in Colombia said undercapitalised down there, which was great. Obviously, the Middle East, there was a long run in agreements with Middle Eastern countries where teams that go off team jobs, where you go off and you'll do team jobs with them and South East Asia.

So was quite lucky in that that sort of time to be you. So you're operating in different continents. So and for me, it was great. You know, again, Young for the first time in the Middle East was amazing. You know, never been there before, you know, couldn't believe I was actually there and then sort of troop sergeant.

And you're back there again for something. If they I've got another four months is holding.

And then but was there always was there an interest in a big shooting war? Did that feel you had you'd done it a lot by that stage. Did. Yeah, it's something you think about. Yeah. Oh yeah. Horsetail Conventional War. Yeah.

And and certainly, you know, the last one was the the Falklands campaign.

And so you ended up getting involved in these these sort of, you know, these team jobs.

And so there when certainly when the Gulf come up, there was this feeling of all of a sudden all that stuff that, you know, you know, calling in air support, calling in artillery, all these things, even the C-130.

Gunships, you know, all these these sort of things, all the stuff that we that you have to do is part of what you need to know, you know, in case there's a major conflict.

All of a sudden we think, well, actually, we might be able to do that, you know, you know, calling in five states, calling in, you know, the AC 130 gunships or that sort of stuff.

So there was there was a sense of of excitement about that apart from me, because we were on the counter-terrorism team at that time. So we thought we were going to be squadron for we were going to miss it the first Gulf War. And it was the commanding officer at the time who moved the squadrons forward.

And G Squadron took over early because we literally everybody thought we're going to be well, this war carry on for like 18 months, two years. So let's get the changeover done, get everybody out there, get everything set up so we can sort of crack on to was looking for a quite a long war in a traditional sense.

Your job in the Gulf War ended up being looking for Scud launchers, which were firing antiquated but potentially hugely strategically important missiles, are Israel hoping to bring Israel in against Iraq?

And then that would cause the the international coalition to Fracture's Arab states could not fight the same side Israel.

And that means cleaning around the desert looking for these. Yes. And that goes right back to the earliest days. The SS you couldn't have made up a more perfect. Absolutely.

It was it was incredible. It was all of a sudden, you know, all of the you know, what they called a you know, the Pinkie's the you know, the Land Rovers, all that sort of stuff was returning, you know, obviously different weaponry and and better Land Rovers.

But, yeah, all that stuff was was sort of coming back and people were loading up because literally it was sort of war, certainly. And these squadrons basically were splitting in half from groups. And then just like literally came it to the border crossing the border before the ground war started and get out in the desert, operate on their own and looking for these looking for these Scuds.

And at that time, we were training and doing the planning, preparing for all of the if you like, the traditional things, you know, special forces get involved with, you know, disruptions of communications, supply lines, forward information is the thing, I think prime target assassination, which is basically IEDs, the thing that they'd been killing. So troops in Iraq and Afghanistan.

So the line of IED, all that that that sort of stuff. And literally when the Scud started firing, everything was stopped.

And the whole regiment's emphasis was about stopping Scuds landing in Israel.

And it had to be done within two weeks or 14 days because the Israelis at one stage, whole of the Israeli offensive air force was sort of orbiting around the Mediterranean, ready to attack Iraq because of these Scuds were landing in, you know, sovereign soil.

So there was a deal that was struck with the Israelis and George Bush senior who said, look. Within two weeks, if the Scuds are still firing, the Israelis said, look, we're going to attack. It's as simple as that and we do it on our own terms. So that's why everything changed and it was all about just stopping the Scuds. So even our patrol were going out on foot. We had to take 14 days of everything with us because we're going to be out there no matter what it was all about, stopping Scud.

And was that incredible?

You were leader of that patrol. That must have been. That's that's the dream job. It is.

You know, it was all of a sudden it was it was like, you know, it's like, well, no one really sort of, you know, happy that we were there on, you know, this sort of conventional war sort of thing.

And then all of a sudden you're getting this classic sort of, you know, Special Forces job. So we're actually in that time and it was planned to I was a true son of the air assault troop in RESCORED. So we were going to at one stage before it all stopped, we were looking at doing a static line jump about two hours before the air war started to try and destroy two electricity turbines. And because the airplanes thought they couldn't destroy them.

So we were getting ready for that and doing a stage at 400 feet, which isn't a good thing because, you know, you never use reserves. So I said for a joke, we won't be needing reserves. Then I went, Yeah, that's right, you don't. We're going to jump four a chislett. So all that sort of changed. And it was all about this Scud thing.

And it was there was this sense of of excitement, without a doubt, you know, because everybody was out there, this big thing going on, you know, with like, you know, like dozens of B 52 flying over your head and all that sort of stuff going on, you will actually get a big conventional war on that operation.

Did did everything did everything go wrong? Could go wrong?

Yeah, initially, yeah.

I think we the problem we had was the lack of information and a lack of care, but lack of information. Isn't that major problem purely because you wouldn't need special forces?

Because the primary task of S. F is to get information for the main field army so we all forget, you know, stuff going on. But that's the primary task.

So a lot of times you're going out to get information for other sort of organizations.

So the lack of information wasn't unusual because that's part and parcel of it. But the lack of care never experienced before because, you know, sort of special forces getting all the gear or the sort of the autopilot.

Yeah, but and I certainly didn't realize it at the time, but for the first time ever in the in the regiment's history, there was three squadrons concentrating on the same operation. So you had G Squadron back in the UK during the counter-terrorism commitment, all three squadrons now in Saudi doing the same job.

So we had to you know, we had shortages of simple things like Claymore mines and even pistols, which is the primary weapon of the special forces.

So all of a sudden there was this shortage. So, you know, we made up, you know, that the SBA had loads of gear that we went to go and see these lights. They gave us some gear. We made our own claymores, that sort of thing. Again, going back to that argument, well, you know, it's pointless arguing about it, you know, and if you don't like it well after if you can always get out.

So we made our own claymores, that sort of stuff. And even getting out there, we were going to north west of Baghdad to find a main supply route, which isn't a road. It's a track system on from Baghdad go north west towards Syria. So the idea was that the assumption was that this fibre optic cable would run along the MSR purely because of normal sort of maintenance and administration.

So it's easier for them to get to to get out there because nobody knew where it was, find it and then destroy it, because that was, you know, part of the system that was sending the information of where and when for the Scots, the FOXY'S, you know, they just don't rock up and then fire it. You know, there's a survivor who does disease, coordinates all that sort of stuff. So cut that line of communication, which is a classic safe task.

Well, we didn't know where it was. We didn't know what to do when we found it, you know, by blowing up, you know, we didn't know.

So we we were going we're going to put small charges along the along.

The cables are quite easy to repair. So we have a much staggered timings as we're going on and lay IEDs initially quite close. So as far as the Iraqi military came down to repair, we'd probably kill or wound them on on the site, on the on the demolition site and then just move them out more and more. So just slow them down for when they want to replace this cup. So that was the plan we got up there.

The UN aircraft carrier was far more than the planners anticipated, which affected us quite badly later on, and also there was two brigades coming from the north west coming down to the south east via Baghdad of mechanized Iraqis who were going down south to, you know, to reinforce Kuwait, because obviously it was very clear there would be that invasion. So all of a sudden, we had, like, you know, lots of mechanized vehicles up and down this track.

Initially, it didn't worry us because it's our biggest weapon on the ground. When you're doing those jobs, aren't the weapons you've got.

You know, we had assault rifles and 66 is these disposable rockets, its concealment. So hide up in the daytime, get out at night and try and find this cable. So initially, you know, these things happen, but you just got to get on with it because you're there anyway. It's not a point of you know, the point is sitting down, having a moan about it.

Big problem really came when we sent our sitrep out.

Situation report. So it's actually where we are, what we're doing, what we're going to do. They just want to know you exist and we send them out for a burst of energy, hitting satellites, all this stuff. So you encrypted or you press the button and there's this little two second burst of energy that sends you encrypted message off. And every time we pressed it, it went off, but it was corrupt. So you don't have antennas sticking up your antenna feary where you work out where you are, what a signal squadron works out where you are, and then you lay out your antenna on the ground and you can bury it so nobody can see it.

So try to bang it again. Check the antenna theory that was OK and hit again.

We weren't getting any reply, so it was a corrupted message. So back in Saudi, as far as I'm concerned, you know that they haven't heard from our callsign. Bravo two zero. So that was the first of our problems.

But it didn't really it doesn't stop you doing from what you're doing. It just means you sit reps not not not getting through, really. And it was a day date. What we found, again, because of this big move from Hereford, where the signal squadrons are and they work out on know the order antenna. They took all their technology with them and what they've done, they gave us the southern footprint for the antenna theory. And he works on the A&E levels in the ionosphere and, you know, at different times of day where you can bounce your signal along the ionosphere.

So they gave us the southern footprint around Kuwait as opposed to the northern footprint, which was north west of Baghdad.

And that's why we didn't get any citrus fruit, which was a big of problems for us, but also back in Saudi as well, because they were they weren't getting all of us.

And eventually you got you got spotted during the the the first night.

Were you trying to find a place called Pay a Lawyer Point?

So, you know, the ground one of the bits of information was right was the the the undulating and Graham was 40 minutes of undulate ground on on average of every nightclothes.

So we knew there was little dips in the ground that we could we could get in again, hide up in the daytime and get out at night. So found an LWP, which was basically an old watershed, just a small sort of body deep in the ground near the MSR.

Where do you just sort of, you know, rock up there and then sit down?

You have to take out a clearing patrol to make sure that, you know, I know when you put me right up in the morning, there's not a Tascosa or whatever, you know, so you've got to get out and do your clearing patrols. So I took a four man patrol out and we start to clear it was clear we were on top of the MSR because you've got all these mechanized vehicles coming backwards and forwards on it. So we cross the MSR eventually got a through.

There was some habitation and which is fine. You know, there's, you know, like a compound, you know, the brick compounds where, you know, the farmers were living. And then about about 150, 400 meters away, there was a set of 16 aircraft guns. But for us, that wasn't a problem at that stage because they're there. They were there protecting, giving air cover. And the air wasn't started yet, but they were given air cover to the mechanized brigades that were coming down from the northwest.

And and they won't send out clearing patrols. And I be sitting there hopefully just making tea. What in all these vehicles come past.

So that was all good. Got back.

So we got in our All You Pay and we live on what's called hard routine. So, you know, there's no sleeping bags, there's no smoking, there's no cooking. So basically all your kits on you all the time. And, you know, no infantry soldier, no weapons, never an arm limps away from for anybody. So you sleep with everything. So you just sort of just sit there basically and and go sleep and in. And it was OK.

You know, you got stack system where you got, you know, people on sentry duties, all that sort of stuff. And then that morning start trying to send out sitrep, it didn't happen, but that's fine.

That night we're going to get out and look seriously for this this fiber optic cable.

And it was about sort of late afternoon and we heard goats on our side of the MSR because obviously that to be our side, because we've got these vehicles going going past, you know, blocking out noise the other side.

And at first that was all right, you know, the goats. And then this young kid shouting and hollering, you know, what we presume was the goats.

The league had a little bell say, come up the top of our LWP. And he sort of looking down at us. We're looking at more goats came out and the goats are looking at us.

And then we heard this kid shouting at goats to move them along. So then he you know, from our perspective, he started to get bigger and bigger as he moved that the top of the lip of the of the wadi. And he saw us eight weapons pointed at him and quite rightly ran. And he ran towards the MSR and the direction of the sixty guns. So that was one of the the guys that I, Vince, who was crossing, he tried to scramble up to get hold of him, but he was too slow.

You know, this kid had gone. So we had to take it as a. We'll compromise, you know, and even if we want, we take it as one, so the idea was to we had about an hour that an hour of light before it got dark.

Did you ever wonder what would have happened if he had grabbed the kid? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, it's it's yeah, it's a question that's always asked. So basically, we would have got him. We would have kept him with us.

We distract him and shut him up and take this with us.

Because part of the planning preparation was to go back to an emergency of wearing theory, a helicopter or turn up three at this emergency R.V. We'll get on it and we'll move along the MSR to try and find another place to go. And again, we're out there, this 14 day thing we to try and find it. And then we would just leave and go so far from home.

We would be traumatized by it, but actually be a better life, you know, because there's a war on. So that's what we would have done.

And and even, you know, you know, there's always been the debate, where would you kill him and all that? Well, actually, there's no reason to because what happens if you, for instance, that you go near that compound that I spoke about, the, you know, the farmers compound, if there was a dog that was coming out and he was barking and all that sort of stuff, basically killed a dog.

But you're not going to leave the dog there because in the morning, you know, the locals look up, someone's killed a dog. There's something up. Not that it's a patrol, but, you know, something's up. So what you do is then you take the dog with you and we have been liner's for that sort of thing. Take the dog, take all the blood, all the sand, and you'd have to carry it, literally carry it dead weight.

Because everything that you have, you take back with you. You never leave. You know, you never bury anything. We even defecate in plastic bags, urinate in, you know, little sort of finally a jerry cans because, you know, never leave anything at all. You page you might have to go back there again. So you have to carry everything. So, you know, it was pointless. You know, if we got him, it'd be pointless killing the boy because someone would have to carry him.

It's sounds quite sort of, you know, click up. But it is. But it is. It's very clear. So you just drag him along, let him go.

You have an hour to get away. Yeah.

So the idea was to try and make some distance before it got dark and make it to this emergency pick up point. But his helicopter would be there about 4:00 in the morning.

So and even that, you know, the fact is that what you'd have to do is grab hold of the the the loadmaster on the back of the Chinook and just hold him so the pilot wouldn't take off because I don't want to be there as well, you know.

So I said get everybody on board and then fly off and explain what you want done. So we're off to this area. And it was when we were sort of, if you like, heading south to Saudi that we started track vehicles and it was clear what would happen is that this boy had gone off to the guns or he might stop one of these vehicles.

I saying, well, you know, these white guys down in this. So there was a couple of vehicles going and they got a lot of old Russian armored personnel carriers. So there's not a lot you can do, quite frankly, about apart from Stand Your Ground, because you're in the middle of nowhere. It's not a desert, as in saying, you know, it's quite rocky in scheelite is pointless running because you just die out of breath. So we have to do is is literally, which is the order stand your ground.

So like any sort of ambush, the only thing you've got to do is turn towards it and and not initially go for it. Just see what happens. You know, we can hit vehicles. We don't know if they're going to cross the hill or not. So let's just wait and see what happens. But they did. So two vehicles in a couple of like trucks and Osofsky vehicles came over like Bob initiate the contact with with with his sixty six.

And so we're just cracking them off really and getting some rounds down. They stopped, the vehicle stopped and they've got they've got some point six machine guns on the BMPs, but the lads in there were clearly flapping. They don't know what's going on. So rounds going everywhere, which is good for us.

And the only thing is then is you drop you get you drop your and bogans are off by then you still got Belkis on and just go for it. And the exactly same would you do in any any ambush.

And the idea is that if if everyone is dead, nobody I know it was been a major cock up anyway, but the ones who got through fine and then we'd start moving on because there's nothing else you can do. Everyone got through. We used almost all of our in the trucks were usually quite fast. Yeah. Basically loads of white folks, all that sort of stuff is a burning agent. So not only covert us, but, you know, in the vehicles and all that, that sort, you know, in the back of these trucks.

So basically what is on on those type as a as a command is think or command and control.

So basically give the command, stand your ground, stand the ground. Everybody will do that. Going back to the self discipline, whether they agree with it or not, they'll do it. Because they know that if you then start, there's no time to argue anyway, but if you then start having doubts, the integrity of the patrol is lost.

So you lose your, if you like, the little firepower that you've got to crack on. So everybody get on with it. You can argue about it later on. So off you go. So we used up all the white force, all these bits and pieces to get through. So the commanders then go and then in the films you see people like, come on, then it doesn't happen. You just people know what they got to do. You can shout and holler that you want to do something.

They're not listening because everything narrows down and they just get in and they know what they got to do and they just go on. So the big thing afterwards is control, trying to get whoever's there back together so you can scorch Kroloff. So everybody lands up in their own little worlds, quite frankly, rather than, you know, what you see in the films. It's just getting on with it.

What we've done here. Yeah, we're going to stay there and sort of, you know, cry over it because, you know, we just wanted to use the confusion.

So basically, it was clear now we're going to get followed up. We're not going to make it to the east of. So we have another system of of being rescued and that's going to what's called a war of choice and a war of a normally would be the American or the British embassy in the nearest country of safety. And ironically, at that stage in Syria, it was, you know, just a couple of hundred kilometers away.

So the idea is then you have these statements that you make a series of sentences so you don't knock on the door Amesys they won't let you in.

So you have to jump, you know, jump the wall or have a tree, make sure show, you know, armed and just keep shouting out these these these proof statements. And eventually you'll you know, you'll go through the system. So it was clear we're not going to make any of it because they just follow us up. So we put in we boxed it.

So we went south and then boxed around, then headed literally just on the back of north west northwest, going towards the the border and and then the air war started, so.

There was a there was a there was an airbase, I don't know, 40 or 50 kilometers away called Tehran, technically called one within the, you know, the planning packs. So there was loads of jets screaming off conille jets going over, all over, over the place. We're not too sure if they were Iraqi or allied forces.

And then Nannygate, you'll get the, you know, the distant bombings of Tehran. And what happened is one of the guys, Vince, was injured. He wasn't shot.

But what did what had happened? It was very rocky. It's like really a bit of a gamey leg, actually. It was all sort of mangled up, you know, because of all the running and running around. So I wrote down it, put a guy out in front.

And again, we only had one night unit about. That is incredible because that's all we could get our on one night view.

And I put Sky out night view and I'd put another guy out to cover him. And then this guy, Vince, and then me. So all of us all of a sudden, like, it's slowing down very clearly. You know, we've got problems with Vince because he was incredibly slow and you've got to travel at the speed of the slowest, of course. So there was aircraft coming from the west coming out. Obviously, we can't see it.

You know, we just had these fast jets coming over. So what I decided to do was get on what's called a tank B, which is a small tactical radio that talks to aircraft, international frequencies. So you get what you do is a tanker, you pull a pin, press the press and you get on on the air and you can talk to, you know, the fighter jets.

So it'll say, look, we're going to try to be here because we've definitely got troubles. So they knew that we were number one, was still alive because they hadn't had a sitrep. So gone Atterberry, you know, any callsign. You know, this is Bravo to where ground callsign didn't get any reply and then eventually got an American voice coming over. Roger that. Bravo two zero. Roger that. Bravo two zero. And then sort of faded, you know, as he as he shot off.

It's almost a line of sight thing with the tactics.

And it was then they realised that Vince had carried on and where literally, you know, you can't you know, there's no ambient light. So Vince had gone he was probably about, you know, 50, 60 metres ahead. The other two in front, though. No, but we were now split up. And basically I didn't make sure that he understood what was going on. So at that stage, you're in two groups, you know, and it was not a lot you can do about it.

Everybody knew where they were going. Everybody knew what was expected of them, you know, get to the border. We're going to war over. So now there was two groups because you're not going to shout out. You're not going to use white light. You're not going to do that because you don't know who's available.

So off we went in two groups towards the Syrian border, literally. Do you know, north west, just on a compass bearing. And then we started having trouble with.

The weather we had, snow certainly started rain then, obviously then it turned into snow and obviously in the south what was happening there was all the rain that was that was sort of affecting this big mechanise attack on Kuwait. We had snow coming down. And Bob Consiglio, who was the one who initiated the contact with the 60, say he started to go down with hypothermia. Basically, what we done, we got into what was the tank, the tank berms.

You know what? They dig out an area so a tank can go in. So it's just the whole overloads. And obviously it was facing Iran because this wall that had been flying. So we got in one of them.

And again, it's it's that that that group decision say, right.

What we've got to do is get a flame going. We've got to get you know, we've got we've got to get some we got to get a brew down his neck. We've got to start warming remarks. Otherwise we're going to lose him. He was going down. So it's not as if myself as the commander go right. This is what we're going to do. It doesn't work like that, you know, because everybody's got say so and say, right.

This is what we need to do. Are we going to do it anyway? Yeah, of course they're going to do it. So we dug out and we got a brew going for him, which was breaking all of what, S&P standard operating procedures. So we've got a broom. So it was while I obviously would cover it up, but then we got so you always on you're on your own.

You've always got 24 hours of food, you know, emergency sort of food. So it loads of hot chocolate, getting loads of hot chocolate down, trying to get him warmed up, exchanging body heat, all that sort of stuff. But the fact is we still had to move. So we've got him warmed up. It was okay to move. And then we we started to to get on because we just had to make distance before first light. And so we then found they basically had, you know, a depression in the ground, which is a dried up stream, obviously, by now start to fill up a bit the ice and melted.

So the snow started to melt during the daytime and it was Kleppe. Bob, you know, Bob, I'm going to make it. So we're trying to keep him warm. And what I decided to do then was that we could see a metal road, a tarmac road a couple of kilometres away that was heading north west, you know, and there's trucks coming backwards and forwards. And what you expect in that part of world, a lot of technical, you know, like flatbed trucks, all that sort of stuff.

And so I said, we're going to be going after Nick a vehicle. We've got a mate. We've got to make the border. We've got to get over into Syria because otherwise Bob's going to go down. And so we wait until last night, myself and Bob took off our belt weapons and I held him. And then we saw some headlights, officer headlights. I actually came from the way we wanted to go north west and so, you know, waving him down with a torch.

So but instead of like this. Flatbed or, you know, four wheel drive that we was after. Then we could go cross-country. It was an old 1950s American taxi windscreen. You know, I was driving in Arab dress. There was two militia in the back, which was a father and son group. And then so soon as it stopped, obviously the rest of the lads out weapons getting them out. So the two militia in the back, they were they were going ballistic.

The guy like we're Christians, we're Christians, he's an Arab. Kill him, kill him. So we just want the taxi.

So we got them out and got rammed, but we're committed to the road, so and we started to make distance. He's great getting to Iran and all that sort of stuff. It was good.

So we got to the 11 kilometer point towards Syria. So we had about 11 kilometres to go before we hit the border. We were clearly weren't going to drive over the border.

We would have jumped out and then started to negotiate at night because we wanted to get over the border before first light because don't want to get stuck around the area. So but we got caught in a vehicle checkpoint, lots of trucks, all that normal stuff. And then let's start. Iraqis were just walking down, you know, no weapons in the shoulder, sort of they all nervous about just walking down, you know, checking cars.

And so what we had to do was, was initiate the contact to get out, because as soon as they come down on us, then it would be a contact. And again, in the film, there's all these great plans. It's not it's like, get out, go left, hit that wall and then start heading north west and just go for it, use the confusion and then just keep together and we just go. And that's what we've done.

So we've just got loads of rounds down, went left, start to move and then lots of firing coming from the roads. But again, they're shooting everybody just laying down loads of fire, so. What happened from that point was, was that we then at about 11 case to go and we'll end up fighting. To the border, obviously, there's lots more, you know, Iraqis up near the border there would be aware of what's going on as soon as that initial contact happened.

So in a lot of stuff going on by now, it was all dark. We're out of the way of the road or out of that.

And literally, as we were moving on, these contacts would happen and, you know, we'd lined up getting all split up.

You can see they've got shot at about the third, third contact. So basically, at a minimum, which is a it's a light machine gun.

So and about probably about 20 rounds left. So we do put a gun up in front. So as you move in, so if anything happens, all it does is just get that fire down. It gives people time to move out and get some fire down. So basically, it was up from contact, happened up front. So they started the fire rounds and was shot. So. So it went down. Then groups went left and right. So we landed up in two groups of two by then.

I then moved along with with a New Zealander and the other two groups, they were moving towards more towards the Euphrates River. We were going left as we split after that big contact and went for a series of contacts where we came up on a. On a rise and as we came over the rise, then they opened up, he went down I thought was dead, he actually wasn't. Later on, I found out that he was is wounded. He went down.

So I'm trying to, you know, look, it's so dark, you can't see him. So he's down. So I just carried on. I went right and went round. I can hear the other contacts going off to the right with the other two lads, you know, hundreds of miles wide, well down by the Euphrates.

And I got. About two meters from the border. Before first light, so. What I decided to do was just come back a little bit into Iraq and find somewhere to hide because what I didn't want is a political border.

It's no, it's not not social border. There was a town called al-Qaim which straddles the border. So it's not as if you jump over the border and everything's good so far. All right.

Well, I don't want to say I didn't physically know what the border was, whether it was barbed wire, you know, I don't know. Syria welcomes careful drivers or whatever.

I didn't know at that stage during the planning and preparation, we were told that the CIA will be along the border. To take people like us and down pilots to Ratnam through to get into the embassies in Syria, so we ask, well, how do we identify the CIA operator who's on the other side of the border?

And what they said was that won't be easy, because as you go through the towns, if there's a white sheet hanging out the window, that's where we'll be. So if we give that one a miss and just do it ourselves and go.

So I've needed all that night to make distance from the border. So I end up in a drainage culvert on a road which fed the fields from the Euphrates. So there was these diesel engines that would suck up the water from Euphrates, bringing up to the high ground, and then it would filter down into the fields because it's all irrigate both sides of the Euphrates. So I decided to stay there until last night and then I would have all night to negotiate the border and and make as much distance as possible, really.

And it was that day that you got caught. Yeah, basically.

But I didn't have a weapon. It was all points when the ammunition is not compatible with the AK systems, that which was somewhat seeks to show we're firing five, five, six. So you can tell the signatures are the weapons.

So during the day, I'm right in there in the culvert and I could hear some 556 going off, actually short burst, 556, you know, a couple of hundred meters away towards the Euphrates. So I thought, well, it's still some other people that are alive. Lots of shouting in the fields, lots of school kids, all that sort of stuff going on, vehicles crossing the culvert. And I was feeling quite confident and all right, actually, until later on in the afternoon where another couple of vehicles came over Land Cruiser type vehicles.

And this time I stopped logia large jumping out.

And still in my head there was this, like disbelief that they'd see me because there was nothing tangible to say that I've been caught, you know, nobody's, you know, shattered and all that, that it so I thought, well, you know, I'm not getting out.

Clearly, I'm going to stay there. But then, you know, boats start to come down into into the water, into the you know, the front likova lots of weapons. They start firing around the Kovar. They wanted me out. I'm not getting out because, you know, you get shot through just excitement, you know. You know, they get everyone when everyone gets excited because it was like a lump is still there to cover as well.

So there's ricochets going. There's all sorts. They drag me out. There's a thing the nice term is called tactical questioning. So basically it's just beaten up. So which is sort of, you know you know, you got to understand, they're number one, they found these people that are responsible for this is this problem for the last couple of days.

CIA reports that came back saying that the Iraqis were reporting an Israeli attack force, which didn't help us later on. And the casualties were roughly about 200 soldiers dead and wounded, about 200 Iraqis.

So they're taking frustrations out of what was going to get killed anyway.

But clearly not later on, we found out that there was a financial reward for getting, you know, capturing downed pilots and people like us damage on the right hand side of my jaw. And the teeth were cracked and, you know, they fragmented and started coming out, put into a vehicle and driven off to al-Qaim, which is the the local town.

And what had happened later on, we found out, was that the old school, everybody was pushed out into the field to go and look for this Israeli attack force. Basically, that's why I could hear all these kids about all the time was taken into the military location there.

And it's then where I saw one of the other, I cook dinner. It was part of the other two that went down to Euphrates. It was already there. And he'd got caught when they attacked that not big firefight because it's more like we've run out of ammunition. But I had that burst of fire five, six.

And what had happened, him and another guy called Steve Lane. The only way they could escape is they were getting followed up was to swim the Euphrates. And, you know, it's wintertime cold and they got to the other side and Steve Lane started to go down with hypothermia, so.

I got into one of these diesel pump stations and, you know, it's just a shack with an old diesel engine, I suppose, but actually getting a bit of a shower, trying to keep him alive. So when the follow up was carrying on in, you know, during daylight hours, we decided to do was to get out, get a contact going, see if we can run to see if he can get away clearly.

But obviously, if they follow up, they're going to find Stav and maybe they keep him alive. Maybe they know he died at some stage, you know, after after capture. But he was on his last legs.

So Dingo's was there. And we then we we got like this.

I was quite happy that was there, actually. It was there was this relief that someone else had been called and actually that there's a mate there. And then we got taken from a town where people were because the bombing campaign had started by then.

So they basically were allowed to like like kick and punch.

It's basically just, you know, start beating on us.

We thought we were going to get killed at the end of this. So we actually messed up, made it worse for ourselves by retaliating rather than just take it and move through. So because we thought we're going to die anyway. So we got four that they put in a vehicle. And then it was a convoy that led off towards Baghdad that night.

But we had to stop and retreat because of the bombing. So the bombing campaign and off it went. You know, it was all night, you know, bombing all night all over the country.

So we had to wait for a bit and then eventually landed up in the center into an interrogation center that was built for interrogation of the Iranians during during their war.

And obviously, we backed their war with Iran. So we gave military assistance and and certainly trained their their officer corps.

So the interrogations were. Yes. What do you expect? You know, you're like you're in a cell. Everybody was stripped and handcuffed and blindfolded. There was someone else at that time we didn't know it was definitely another Brit. I didn't know which one it was we could hear further down getting beaten up. So, no, there was three of us alive and.

We then went through a system of interrogations where. They wanted us to say we were Israelis, so which obviously fit their narrative about Israel, Jordan, Jordan joined in the war. Well, there was this like Ramatoulaye born on unstable Jews that was burned with spoons because there was no electricity or hot water, no running water, wine. And so it was all paraffin. He is in the interrogation rooms, so he spoons and them on your we're all or cop and messed up a bit.

So they burn on that at a guy who said he was a dentist from Guys Hospital who'd been there for nine years and he was back. Now he's back because of the war, who pulled the remainder of the material and.

What we didn't realize at that time was that they'd recovered Bob Consiglio body, who was a Swiss Italian and it was a robbery, but Swiss Italian descent. So very dark skin, curly hair, hair. And clearly we didn't know he didn't have a foreskin. So it really fit into their sort of Israeli sort of scenario. Then I would say, you know, days and days to realize about that. You know, the whole fact is that I had a foreskin.

So I said, well, look, you know, I'm not Jewish. I got foreskin. And obviously within the Islamic faith as well, as, you know, the word doesn't really sort of compute. So they're looking in dictionaries. You can hear the pages turning. So I want to show some, like, pull in, pull in, pulling away. But by now it's like February impact. That's pretty cold. So I'm pulling away and literally, like they realized that they all started laughing and they shoved the day in my mouth and I got a date and then the interrogations changed to work.

Well, what were you doing? And we were literally being interrogated by military officers who'd been Sandhurst.

So part of our cover story was that they want a cover story in the whole story is that we were. Search and rescue team, we're all medically trained, we all being brought from different regiments to make these teams. We flew out because there was a pilot that was there was downed helicopter left.

Our officer left us and we were lost so we could then go back to our regiment. So we got history. True for history. There were medically trained.

We can do all that by one of them. One of the interrogators said I should have a green jacket. Okay. I was in the royal green jacket and he said, what battalion went out to our when I and and he said, oh, you know, major so-and-so.

And I went, well, actually, yes, he was my company, too. I see.

When I was in the battalion, yes, I was at Sandos with him. You know, it's like it's the whole thing's mad.

But so anyway, we went through all this this these interrogations and basically because the war with Iran, so everything was very physical because that was the nature of their interrogation techniques with the with the Iranians.

All three of us got out of there and we went to Abu Ghraib, which we didn't know at the time. And and that was quite a relief, actually, getting out interrogation that put in the prison because there was other prisoners there, predominately Americans. American pilots had been shot down by now because, again, the bombing campaign had been going on for nearly two weeks. Some Black Hawk search and rescue crews, you know, helicopters being shot down, I think so there will be brought in.

So when you're captured.

You still have a job to do, so you still from that initial capture during the time in in the sea in Baghdad, so your job is to conduct the capture is to. Give your hardcore element in our case, you know, the crew HQ in in Saudi time to assess.

What damage we may have done on, you know, information wise, so when you go on a job, you're going to isolation when you plan and prepare. So no one else knows what you're doing. So and you don't know what anybody else is doing. So if you do get captured, you only know what you need to know. So as you go through the system, you go through the big four, the Geneva Convention, at your time of choosing you then go into your cover story.

And based on, you know, on true facts in our cover story was, you know, this search and rescue team, because what you're trying to do is give your equipment go.

OK, we haven't heard anything from the very first day from Bravo two zero. We must assume everybody is captured and they're saying everything they know. So what do we need to change or cancel on our operations? So because of operational security, they know what we know. So because basically then it's keeping other people alive. So by the time we got into Abu Ghraib, we're feeling quite pleased with ourselves that that system at worked because we'd just gone in to cover story and there was no interrogation there.

There was again, we're taking, you know, taking hits in a compound, Baghdad getting bombed every night. All that all that going on. You still got a job.

You've still got to try and communicate with other prisoners to get names because you never know what's going to happen later on, whether, you know, some people are going to be killed there or left behind. And then people that you can't communicate with, if you see them, you try and remember if they had any insignia and all that sort of stuff, what they look like.

So if you ever got released, you can give that information in so they can compile because the Iraqis weren't given any lists out. You know, it was just not allowed in Abu Ghraib. So we communicate with a couple of the pilots predominately where we were Marine Corps pilots and and a search and rescue, a Blackhawk search and rescue team.

So we sort of, you know, as we can do over the next two and a bit weeks, we start to exchange names or that sort of stuff. No interrogation. But it was like when the cat's away to myself, they're taking hits. The families are getting killed, without a doubt, you know, with a bombing campaign. So they would come in and just beat you up. Basically, I took my own feces at one stage when I emptied this bucket out and, you know, got hepatitis through it because it was a mixture, just weren't mine as well.

So it was just so but that was wasn't some institutional thing. That was it was just the person who was there, just wanted the Iraqis there she thought was funny. So I think, why do you do that or do you take another step with the baton? So you go, well, I'll do that. Well, when I was a green jacket, I'd done it once with my own laga for Americans cheering a big a big exercise in Germany, but not as bad as this one.

You make it. I mean, you're making it sound. Well, two things. I'm surprised that you you know, the professionalism of trying to remember people's, you know, insigne and things. And then also you're able to have a bit of a laugh about it. But is that is it is is that the way that you managed to get through it?

Yeah, yeah, I think so. I think it's going back to that that whole thing off of that mutual contract. You know, the fact is that by then, you know, I was loving what I just loved in the military. I thought it's fantastic. And so what happened was then that whole point of of, OK, very, very aware that this may happen as happened.

Actually, the stuff that I'd been taught not only been taught, but the listening to other people's experiences, which is part of that teaching process, is actually is helping me do you know, is helping me and I think.

OK, so and it goes back to that optimism.

But you're right, everything will be all right.

So all you've got to do is get through this bit. I always used to think about an American pilot that I listen to, part of the training who was six years solitary confinement during the Vietnam War, a Navy pilot, literally, you know, the way he describes it, he says, I'm on an aircraft carrier. I'm playing volleyball in a pair of shorts, donuts, cup of coffee, get a briefing, go and bomb something for two hours.

I come back and carry on the game. But it wasn't shot down. And this is what happened.

So I'm thinking, OK, we've got this guy who, you know, quite a good life, really, in a way, you know, involved in a war living on aircraft carrier.

But he survived six years of that, something Iraq.

Well, by then I've been at and I've been in the Army fifteen, sixteen years or whatever. And then I thought, well, I'm used to being wet, cold and hungry and sunny. Used to, you know, like son is young squaddies, you know, garrison fights and all that sort of stuff. So I think I'm on, you know, week five.

I know someone has done six years of this and he's still living. So, you know, after two years, I might start getting worried about it. But at the moment, I am worried about it. But it's not going to sort of totally sort of, you know, sort of just drown me with it all, because actually we'll see what happens.

The war's. Clearly still on because we're still getting bombed each night, so it would be very clear what the result is. Let's see what happens after that. Eventually, I need to let you go, because I'll listen to you all day, but, you know, eventually, you know, the war is over quickly, you were released.

Was that the end of your soldiering? No, no, I should not for years.

So I went back to and there was there's six months where I was in and out of of different hospitals.

You know, it wasn't overnight. It was going and getting checks. I got my teeth sorted out in the sovereign banks in Cyprus. When we initially got in there, they put in all the different cavity fillings and all that sort stuff. So then at a period of sorting that out and I had some nerve damage in my in my hands, well, that's where the results of it were.

So I had some tests on nerve damage, that sort of thing. And then, sir, for another three years. So at that time there were two, if you like, wings, there was counter-revolutionary counter-revolutionary warfare wing.

And part of that was the counter-terrorism team, that sort of group.

There was another group then was called Revolutionary Warfare Wing. So you've got counter-terrorism trying to stop that sort of stuff. You go, oh, W-W, whose job is to start that stuff up so that another three years we've all W-W which were fantastic.

And and then I was approached by one of the the private military companies because the Americans were going to privatize the war in Colombia, they were going to call it Plan Colombia.

So again, nobody's thinking about private industry. It's been going on for decades, you know, and it's quite sort of well formulated.

So Plan Colombia was going to be put in. And so the predominant American companies that had those contracts were then going to people like myself, people in the American South, you know, particularly in the workforce that had been down there doing the same thing and saying, well, you know, we got these these these four year contracts you're coming out. And I had literally I had four years to do then before my twenty two was up.

So I was out there like ten or so as loads of us, you know, and it's not bad. You know, this happens all the time when these contracts and the people who approach you from the regiment anyway, so bizarre sort of situation.

So I thought OK, well I finished our W-W and I said, oh I might as well just crack on and get out and work for this American company back in Colombia, which was, you know, well done before and as in regiment. But now it's being privatized, hopefully normal thing, ultimately normal thing. So school fees and and mortgage, same thing as anybody else.

Same thing as anyone else.

And then went when did you start to write the book? I get started. It really came about.

I was approached by a senior officer who who I got an invitation to go to his house for I think was half past seven on Tuesday.

But you will be there sort of thing. You know, you get an invitation, but you'd be there. So the the if you like.

The proposal was that I wrote a book in conjunction and they can give the overall picture of what was going on and how it was working. And it wasn't working by then. Schwarzkopf, they'd come over and add a whole sort of afternoon with him. He was talking about, you know, they didn't know about the mechanized battalion. So in all this different stuff was coming in. And he said, well, did you talk about the private user experience?

And I thought, well, I'm going to do it. I'll do it myself. And by then, John Nichols and John Peters, who tornado crew got shot down.

They were still serving in the RAAF and they'd already written a book, a tornado down. There's a tornado down about their experiences of being shot down and becoming prisoners.

So I phoned up John Nichols. I said, well, how does all this book stuff work?

Not a clue how it all worked. So the process then kicked off. So, you know, went to see the commanding officer. So I said, well, yeah, I get you know, I get what the proposal is. But I thought to myself and then when I started that process, basically, and then a book was published, I was in Columbia and it became this runaway success. So the publisher said, well, do you wanna do another one of all?

Yeah, why not? You know, gets a plane ticket, you know, get Columbia sort of thing. And that's how it. All right.

And is there a sadness? Because obviously in Britain, when you write about the SS, it's very frowned upon. You're not allowed to.

I don't know. We don't have to you not to go back to the most amazing press then.

It's really interesting because the process. Was all done, so it went through the day or, you know, all the stuff actually give the Santos Christmas lecture the year it came out, you know, I mean, that's our. Yeah, so then but within the media, it's really interesting. It was there. You've got some psychonauts jumping up and down who doesn't actually understand what was going on, the process for it to be made and, you know, produced and what was going on.

Suddenly she come out of the main building, jumped in a staff car to go Sandhurst, some coverlet, you know, not nothing too extravagant. You know, Cavaleiro say there's been newspapers there. Some reading was Telegraaf.

And, you know, some retired generals jumped up and down, say it's an outrage and we'll just have to send us that. You know, it's a quite interesting dilemma.

So the people are aware of it. Great. The people are not aware about it, about the system that went on. It doesn't really worry me. You know, it's working with Hammoudeh for about ten years during Iraq and Afghanistan, doing different advisory things and all that sort of stuff.

So, yeah, the whole thing's quite interesting, really, how the if you like the Alvie, the if you like the system of of of making news and entertainment and away all sort of works.

So initially I was really sort of annoyed about it. But now I understand it's just what it is, it's just what it is.

And are you able to hang out and go to read. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The last one I went to work at the moment. Now it's it's normally weddings of mates. Children or their funerals, it's like one or the other at the moment. Yeah, certainly that older generation. Yeah. When I joined and I were coming up to the end of the time as a couple, those lights down on the last leg. So we get, you know, it's a mixture of both at the moment.

So I do all of the you know, you know, when we when it comes to raising money, put it that way, I always say, yeah, well, that sort of stuff goes on.

Of the of the eight of you on the patrol, is it was it three that three were killed, three were killed, yet three were killed.

One one escaped. Made it to the the British embassy. The rest were captured. One was three of us. That was interrogation centre New Zealand. That was shot in the foot actually.

So they got him and I met him in Baghdad when the International Red Cross got the second wave of prisoners.

They've done it.

They've done a deal with the Iraqis to bring in Algerian medical staff to treat the civilian population, because literally, you know, they there's no exaggeration on the numbers of people that were killed and wounded in the city, you know, literally on the street as we're driving through with the Red Cross. So, you know, the vehicles are avoiding, you know, still in the streets. So when we got to this reception area with the International Red Cross, it was there at all in his life.

Are you are you still in touch with them now?

No. One of them still dying. I think the last time ago, San Diego was about maybe about four years ago. I think is out now. Is they still I think he's working on the association now. One's in New Zealand. The other one's in Australia now. It's like, yeah, it's like all these things and it's all there. And then it all all comes apart.

And you've been lucky. I mean, you mentioned friends funerals. We've heard a lot about mental health and and veterans over the last ten, fifteen years. Now, we've perhaps we should have heard more about it before. You are, you well know, absolutely appalling, the appalling experiences.

You know, you know, I think the optimism it's an interesting my my troop seven troop, which is the AirCell troop in B Squadron, um, more people have killed themselves of commit suicide and are actually killed on jobs, which is a, you know, a terrible statistic.

And, you know, and again, but one of the things I've always been involved with, as well as doing the education for peace with the military and and then they extend it to schools and prisons and that sort of thing. But it was actually with PTSD. And in the early days when we you know, we finally recognised that it actually existed. And the people, you know, not only needed help, but they deserved it quite a bit, what with the Maudy just trying to explain it all through the personal experiences of these people who have literally killed themselves within two years, again at a regiment.

So how, you know, we deal with that is an ongoing thing, because what happens is it's good that conflict stop. That's great. The downside of that is that the world moves on. You know, people have got mortgages in this covid and and then we tend to forget that those conflicts ever existed. And then we tend to forget the people are still suffering because of that conflict and particularly people with mental health, because there's nothing tangible there to look at and say, oh, you know, he needs help because, you know, but because it's an internal thing so that that that work has got to carry on.

And now we've actually got people within government, you know, people like Johnny Mercer. Now we're actually in government. No one understands the situation. No.2, he's in a position of power now where we can actually take action. And he has done quite a lot since he's got that new position, which is good because we need we need that help and we need, obviously, to finance that, give those that that helped people.

And but you put your own resilience down to just the optimistic outlook.

Yeah, it's pure optimism. And it's and and it's it's pure stupidity as well, quite frankly, because everything would be alright. And it's I really do it since ever since I first remember, it's always been alright.

And you know, the reality of of well it's like it's a contract is a contract.

You can look it technically and say it's a non liability contract, which it is, but actually it is. That is a mutual contract. They're giving you this. They expect this from you. If you don't like it, get out.

And this why you know, the people who sign in the early days of Iraq where you got, you know, people within the military are refusing to fight and all that sort of stuff. And actually, you know, I find it quite disgusting because you've been taken the money, you've been taking all the credibility and all those those things about it.

And then when you want to do your job, you're deciding that you don't want to do it because it's a mutual contract.

Well, I think I've I've taken too much of your time. It's been great. Much pleasure. It's a total pleasure. What's your latest book?

Whatever It Takes is now in paperback. And there'll be a new one. Well. Next year, there'll be a film, S.A.S. Red Notice, that will come out more maybe in the new year here in the United States, which is all good, and then there'll be another next franchise book in 2022 if I get my finger out there.

Yeah, come on. Honestly, it's clearly from everything I've learned about your last 90 minutes, I can tell you a real lazy, you know. Exactly. I suspect that book will be on time. Thank you very much indeed, Andy.

Thank you. I think what happened is. Allow us to create a strong bond in the history of our country. My God. And pretty quickly, one time, one teacher, one book and one man came to the.