Akehurst recommends comedy podcasts we love.

Hi, I'm Jenny and I'm Kalakh, and together we're two halves of the popular opinion podcast for two guys with very different backgrounds and very different opinions on topics from gimmicks to irrational fears to scams and superstitions with special guests and real listener opinions, we're sure you'll find a nugget of interest in House of Popular Subscribe now on a fast food or wherever you get your podcast.

Akehurst is the home of comedy podcasts in Ireland, including the Two Journeys, The Blind Boy podcast and the one you're listening to right now.

And frankly, say this episode of Dan Snow's history, it is brought to you by Sky. Scott, I want to let you know that a discovery of witches is returning for a second series. All the episodes are available now if you don't know about it. It's a cool sort of historical fantasy mash up. So I was a big fan of the first series. And the second series is even better because this time Matthew and Dana are heroes, are heroes who are in love with each other.

It's not easy relationship, by the way. You'll see why they're hiding in the world of Elizabethan London. And obviously on hand is a powerful witch who needs to help Diana because Diana has got magic folks. As you know, anyone who has magic struggles to control it goes with the territory. We all know that's the Luke Skywalker vibe. Matthew needs to find work in Elizabethan London, which, as you'll see, is pretty difficult. And don't forget to find a way to get back to the present day where obviously they face a bunch of dangers as well.

They've got enemies in the past. They've got contemporary enemies. They've got Elizabeth, the first era enemies. They've got Elizabeth, the second era enemies. Are we in a second Elizabethan age? Hmm. I'm not sure. Is that even a useful delineation of time anymore? Well, probably not in Ireland anyway. So there are demons. There are vampires. You need to watch as ever. Sky of Smash the park, a discovery of witches, everybody.

All episodes now available on sky high.

Everybody, welcome to this episode of Dan Snow's history hit. This week is the anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz Birkenau, the concentration camp by the Soviet Red Army in 1945.

As a result, the UN decided that forevermore Wednesday, the 27th of January, the date of the liberation would be an international day of commemoration in memory of the victims of the Holocaust.

We featured a podcast of this week with survivors of genocide, different genocides, different continents, different periods of our recent history.

But today I wanted to bring this wonderful podcast to a wider audience. It comes from our sister podcast, World Wars, presented by the brilliant Professor James Rogers.

And on this podcast, he talks to Professor Eve Rosenfeld about the other victims of the Holocaust, particularly in this case, the black and Roma peoples. She's a historian at the University of Liverpool. She's been looking into these other groups that were persecuted by the Nazis. It's performed extraordinarily well among the World Wars subscribers. So we want to bring it over to history, give everyone else a chance. Listen to it as well. If you like what you hear, don't forget to subscribe to World Wars.

It's got new content all the time and it's got all the old history episodes featuring remarkable interviews with historians and veterans about the first and Second World Wars. You can also go and listen to all of those podcasts, everything on our new relaunched history hit TV. Yes, folks, all of those people who've been asking me for the last two and a half years, quite rightly, when is it coming out on Roku or Chromecast? It is now.

Here we've got the new apps that have dropped. There are a lot more user friendly. The recommendations work. You can receive notifications and critically, you can now watch it on Roku, which lets people, particularly in the US, have been asking for. So it's all happening. I'm so excited that the relaunch has occurred. Huge congratulations to the team for relaunching the whole of the history TV channel whilst locked up in their own homes. A massive, massive achievement.

It is still January. It is still January. You can go and get the all new history hit TV with all the new beautiful user functions you can go over to history hit TV used to come January and you get a month for free. Check it out for free and then you get three months for 80 percent off. That means just a few pence, a few cents for those first three months, less than the price of a pint of beer.

That is a fact. And they'll take you through till spring, early summer in the northern hemisphere or early winter in the south. You go and and you get all that.

If use the cold January at checkout, please get a history hit dot TV. In the meantime, everyone here is James talking to Professor Eve Rosen Haft.

Hi, Eve, thank you so much for coming on the World Wars. How are you doing today? Hi, thanks for having me. I'm fine because of the weather and the pandemic, in spite of the weather and the pandemic.

Yeah. Well, how is your New Year been? Because I know you're a professor at the University of Liverpool, so it must be pretty tough for you doing Zoome teaching or you trying to transition to in person.

How does it work? Well, I'm in the happy position of being 80 percent retired, so I haven't had to face the challenges of doing teaching in the last year, either here or where I've actually been for the last two years in Seoul and South Korea, in Seoul. At least I could interact with students because the university is still sort of open. And I was working in the university here. I'm at home. I see no students, actually.

I chat to my Korean students. Oh, wow. Yeah, well, that's great that I suppose that's one positive element, is that we've all been able to interact more internationally as zoomin Skype and everything else has become a bit more every day, I guess.

Yeah, that's true. I've talked to people over longer distances than I ever did before. Really being on the whole, the telephone allergic.

Yeah, no, on the same. But I think I'm quickly becoming Zoome allergic as well. So an extra thank you for coming on to this one and for all Zoome recording of this special of the World Wars.

And it is a special episode because it coincides with International Holocaust Remembrance Day. And you are of course, a world expert on this topic. So perhaps we can start with some of the facts. How is it best to define and describe the Holocaust? And on what scale did the Nazis commit atrocities?

Well, I think now we can talk about the Holocaust. And I say this because most scholars who see themselves as scholars of the Holocaust do this and principal Holocaust museums, which are in the business of organizing and communicating knowledge about the Holocaust, do it to the Holocaust, is now seen as a complex of practices carried out by the German state within Germany and in the occupied territories during the Second World War and also by those states that were allied to Nazi Germany during the war.

The largest single group, a group whose death and suffering first gave name to the Holocaust, is, of course, European Jews, of whom it's normally said six million died, were murdered systematically in a process that began with in Germany, with their systematic exclusion from German society, their internment, their deportation, and ended with massacres on the eastern front and finally with systematic gassing and the so-called death camps, of which, of course, Auschwitz is the best known and also is the reason why we are commemorating the Holocaust at the end of January because it commemorates the liberation of Auschwitz.

That said, the deaths of six million Jews is the most appalling and the best known of the dimensions of the Holocaust. But if we think about Auschwitz itself as a fact and a symbol, then we might remember that there were people who died in Auschwitz who are not Jews, a significant large group, among them, tens of thousands, was Europe's Sinti and Roma or Gypsy. The internment, deportation, murder, sterilization, brutalization of Sinti and Roma of gypsies all over Europe has come to be recognized as another dimension of what we call Holocaust and therefore the largest single group after the Jews who were the object of genocidal policies designed in terms of race, where, again, what we know best is the application to the Jews.

But those racial policies which had in the long term have developed a genocidal intent, were applied also to black people in Germany. And if we extend our definition of genocidal and racial to include people who by their biological existence were seen to threaten Germany, then we have, as a third victim group, the disabled hundreds of thousands of disabled and incurably sick people who were again systematically murdered in Germany before and during the Second World War. Now, all of these groups are now considered under the umbrella of Holocaust, as I say, by scholars and practitioners.

And my own sense is that that's a good place to stop the definition of Holocaust. Although anyone who's been to a Holocaust museum knows that the range of victims of the Nazi regime was wider still and included political opponents, for example, they're often taken in under the umbrella of Holocaust. So let's go into these little known or forgotten aspects, I suppose, of the Holocaust and focus in on the Roma peoples, when did the internment of Roma peoples in Germany begin?

The important thing about the persecution of Roma in Nazi Germany and across Europe is that it was a direct continuation of police practices, of harassment and discrimination requirements for identity papers and popular hostility and stereotyping that existed well before the Second World War that was being institutionalized even in the 1920s. And it's important to understand that as the background to what I'm about to say, which is that the first internments of Roma in Germany took place from about nineteen thirty five. And I'm thinking now about in fact, two categories of Wiltern.

So mass internment specifically of Roma begins around nineteen thirty five, and it's a practice organized not by the Nazi central government.

But by local authorities. These local authorities had been nineteen thirty four, largely been notified, but their decisions to build special camps, so-called gypsy camp on the edge of towns like Cologne, like Magdeburg, like Berlin, almost any place you look at any major city in Germany. Now, historians have identified the existence of an internment camp for gypsies as such. And that decision was made very much as the happy end to a long struggle by the municipal authorities to get control of what they described as the solutions.

And it was very often motivated by members of the local community who would petition the city government. One of the interesting things there, I think, and we can see this also in the case of the persecution of black people and we see it in Europe and America now, that the very fact of having a Nazi government empowered people to express their own racism more often, more openly, and to in that sense prompt and then collaborate with the authorities in these little local actions which help them to feel more comfortable by getting rid of their undesirable neighbors.

But mark, the start of a long process and persecution, you know, I suppose it's fascinating to reflect on that point, actually, because this isn't evil by decree top down from the Nazis alone. But this is a deeply embedded, long term brewing social racism that's empowered by the Nazis. And let you say that something so important to consider on this day of international memorial and remembrance for the Holocaust and some of the ways in which it perhaps chimes a little too close to the world we live in today.

But, yeah, please do give us some more details on this more formalized interments, because from some of the histories I've read, there were the so-called gypsy camps, places like Auschwitz Birkenau. And some historians have suggested that it was easier for the Roma populations there because they had more freedom than the Jewish sections. Is that true?

OK, let me talk about the gypsy camp in Auschwitz, because that's really the center of Roma Holocaust memory. And it's also the kind of crux of the story of the way in which they were persecuted by the Nazis in ways that in their own experience were comparable to that of the Jews, but in ways that were very particular to them. And that led to very particular kinds of hurt. About twenty five thousand, maybe twenty three thousand Roma from Germany and Czechoslovakia mainly were interned in a special section of Auschwitz Birkenau.

It was set apart from the other barracks. It was immediately adjacent to the gas chambers and it was also immediately adjacent to the medical facility where Josef Mengele was engaged in his medical experiments. They were interned there on the basis of an order that was issued by Heinrich Himmler at the end of nineteen forty two, in which he decreed that all Orkan gypsies and mixed blood gypsies in German occupied territory, certainly in a new Reich, should be sent to a concentration camp.

And the process by which it was decided that Auschwitz should be that camp continues to be the subject of discussion among historians. The deportations from Germany began in March nineteen forty three, they say about twenty thousand German, Sinti and Roma were probably deported in cattle wagons. Such property as they still had was confiscated in the same way as the property of Jews who were deported to Auschwitz was confiscated using the same forms. So that if you look at the records that were produced by the finance office in Berlin, which kept file on what property had been confiscated because when this property was confiscated, it was taken over by the city government and then auction.

You look at those documents and what you see, as I say, is a form of printed form that says the property of the Jew so-and-so has been confiscated on the basis of this and such a law on the date of their removal to Auschwitz. And some of the bureaucrats have the sense to cross that Jew and write Gypsy. But some of them were so convinced they were still dealing with Jews that they gave these Roma deportees a middle name of Sarah or Israel, which Jews had been compelled to take under the Nazis.

And there was an order that actually went out in this context of confiscations, so the manner of their deportation was very similar to that of the Jews. When they arrived in Auschwitz, though, they didn't face that separation on the ground. They were housed as families and there was no systematic gassing. They were simply put into these barracks in the so-called family. Some people were gassed for various reasons, including poor health and so on. But that was a very significant difference, no immediate elimination and being housed as families.

And that's why some people said and said at the time, other inmates of the camp, people who worked in the gypsy camp, observed that the Roma, the gypsies had it better than the Jews. From the point of view of the Roma themselves, it looked quite different. The conditions under which they were held were those of extreme filth and hunger. They were forced to carry out heavy labor tasks of various kinds. Whole families lived together. They were allowed to keep their own clothes and they didn't have to cut their hair.

But the clothes they had were largely rags. Epidemic disease went through, the camp was rampant and in particular a disease that was known then as NOMO, which is cancer that destroys your skin. Men and women live together. They had children, children were born in this camp and about two hundred infants were born and died there, and they died mainly of natural causes because the conditions weren't conditions in which an infant could survive. Women were subject to sexual exploitation by the guards and indeed by other prisoners.

There's a song that the Polish political prisoners who lived on the other side of The Wire would sing, and it was a song about the gypsy girls on the other side of the wire. And the song is a song to a gypsy girl saying, Dance, please dance, show me your legs and I'll show you some cigarettes, which is a tragic example of the cost of survival under these conditions. The other thing about the family camp in Auschwitz is that the conditions in which these people were living ran completely counter to all of their cultural expectations.

Now, you wouldn't expect anybody to be happy to survive, to retain their sanity under the conditions that prevailed there, and we have lots of evidence of what it meant for people in all parts of Auschwitz to survive. The Roma, typically, they were very family centered, and that's why Himmler made the calculation that they should be deported and kept because families in order to prevent their resisting. But those families were very patriarchal and they were very hierarchical in generational terms.

And survivors from the family camp report that it was particularly shocking to them to have to see their older relations naked, to be in the washroom or on the latrine with their father, their mother there and next to them and to watch them being humiliated. Of course, it was also the case that the way the Nazi concentration camps always operated was to have couples to have prisoners in charge of other prisoners. And in the family camp, it was the younger men, some of whom had served in the army, who were put in charge over the rest of the the inmates, and this was, again, a total reversal of the structures of authority that were typical of those families.

So survivors talk about how the purpose of the family camp in Auschwitz was to destroy them as a people. As well as to physically destroy me, and that was the upshot most so the first German citizen, Roma, arrived in March nineteen forty three from the middle of nineteen forty four. There were plans to dissolve the camp to close it down. And there were, I think, three occasions on which we did a selection and sent relatively able bodied men and women back to Germany as slave laborers to concentration camps.

Some of them survived. Others didn't then survive that last phase. Some of them died on death marches in the last months of the war. Many of them ended up in Berlin, Belsen as last station before they were liberated. At the end of July, beginning of August, nineteen forty four, the camp was finally closed down and the last now we think four thousand people still living in the camp were taken to the gas chambers and killed. Camila's fear that the city and Roma would resist seems to have been realized to some extent.

In May, nineteen forty four survivors reported that there was a first attempt to close down the camp to drag the remaining inmates out. Kill them and close it down. And on that occasion, the 16th of May, nineteen forty four, there were certainly acts of resistance and against survivors believe that this actually forced the SS to postpone the closure of the camp until the end of the war. They were pretty tough, the folks in that camp.

You're listening to the World Wars podcast on dance news history, here's more from James and Professor Rosen half after this.

Vaginae life is more than just a decision to get life insurance. It's a decision to live life with less worry, to not think twice about the financial security of your children and to give your partner peace of mind vaginae life. It's a good decision for life for a quote called 1890, double for double for double four terms and conditions upon VHI health care. Doc trading is VHI. Health care is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland and is tied to the life insurance policy for VHI Life Term Insurance.

Akehurst recommends comedy podcasts we love.

Hi, I'm Jenny, and I'm Khaleq, and together we're two halves of the popular opinion podcast. We're two guys with very different backgrounds and very different opinions on topics from gimmicks to irrational fears to scams and superstitions with special guests and real listener opinions.

We're sure you'll find a nugget of interest in House of them popular subscribe now on afast apple or wherever you get your podcast.

ACost is the home of comedy podcasts in Ireland, including the Two Journeys, the Blind Boy podcast and the one you're listening to right now.

It's amazing, isn't it, even at that stage? After many years of being interned to be able to find the strength to rise up and resist against your oppressor, it's also quite remarkable to hear how Himmler weaponized their culture, their heritage, their history in some insidious and sinister manner in order to make their interment even worse than it possibly could be. And of course, these weren't the only peoples who were oppressed during this period. Would you mind taking us through the history of what happened to black Germans under the Nazis as well?

Let Germans like cinching Roma were declared under the terms of the Nuremberg laws of nineteen thirty five to be of alien blood. The number of laws, as it is very well known, were originally promulgated in the autumn of nineteen thirty five and originally the only racial group named in those laws was the Jews. But there was a follow up ruling that most of the provisions of the Nuremberg laws applied to so-called gypsies and black people as well. So in principle, black people were in the sights of the regime for what the Nazis would have called special treatment.

Their experience was quite particular, however, and I think it's important that thinking in terms of the wording of the Nuremberg laws, in the case of both Roma and black people, the term that was typically used was and I'll just stick with blacks was blacks and their mongrel children, or the focus with black people was the problem of mixed blood. And that had particular consequences for a generation of people who were born in Germany. After about the turn of the century to parents who were in mixed marriages, the official policy towards black people, although the Nuremberg laws were tidied up to the extent of extending to them policy was less focused and less actively genocidal than in the case of either the Jews or the Roma.

And there was never a systematic internment or gathering of black people, bearing in mind that there were relatively few. I've seen the figure of twenty five thousand black people, people of color in Germany in the nineteen thirties that's been floating around, but I don't know where it comes from and weren't all that many of them. And they tended to live individually in their own families, spread out among the majority population. So any intention of picking up all would have been difficult.

There was an order that went out in 1940 to say that all local authorities in Germany and the occupied territories should report on the numbers of blacks so we can kind of see a long term prospect of registering and I think indeed eliminating black people from the population. So there wasn't this official policy of rounding up and interment of the black population in Germany, but when there is created such a hostile environment since the Nazis came to power in 33 and of course, the laws in 35 and onwards, is there more of a implicit policy of victimization?

Because just by their very heritage, these people would have stood out in what was a time where the master race and an Aryan aesthetic was meant to be preferred in society. So it was the more of an undertone of racism that saw black people in Germany very much the priority and attention of police forces.

Yeah, I'm not sure about priority, but certainly they're under the eye. Israelis. Nineteen fifty four. There was a draft of a new penal code that would have criminalized consorting in public between black people and white people. And that's an example, among other things, of how far in this department Nazi racial policy was looking towards American model. That didn't happen. But it's a signal of the extent to which precisely the existence of mixed marriages was seen as a scandal.

A mixed couple was visible and mixed couples were subject to harassment almost from day one of the Nazi regime by the local SS, by local Nazis, and then increasingly survivors or people who lived through that period report how they would be spat on as the children of mixed marriages. They would be spat on and on the street. They would be harassed by their teachers at school and in effect, excluded from school even before it became a matter of implicit and then explicit policy for them to be excluded from school.

They were certainly denied the right to professional training as examples of people who wanted to train as dancers, as engineers who were able to follow that up. As a result, they became subject to forced labor of various kinds in the late 1930s and during the war, and in particular a problem most of them faced, was that as the children of people who had not acquired German citizenship, they were officially foreigners. The core of the black German population in the 20s and 30s were former colonial subjects of Germany from Africa and their families.

And most of them had always been subjects of Germany of some kind, but have never acquired citizenship. After nineteen thirty five, they couldn't claim citizenship anyway. And so a number of stories of black people in Nazi Germany is that they ended up in what we're in effect, forced labor camps for foreign workers. Probably the most traumatic experience of black people in Nazi Germany was that of forced sterilization. And there's a story about that that's very well known, and this is a story of the so-called rimland children at the end of the First World War, parts of western Germany in the Rhineland were occupied by French troops and the French army brought in troops from their African colonies as part of the occupation force.

And some of these men developed relationships with local women. This became an international scandal in the sense that it was treated as a scandal, particularly by the political right, though not only by the right and not only in Germany, and is also remembered by black people who lived through that period as a kind of beginning of virulent popular racism against kind of the moment at which it takes off in a society whose experience with the Coolabah had been very limited by the nineteen thirties, children born to the women who had had relationships with French African soldiers were coming up to their teens.

And the kind of people who worry about these kinds of things, we're beginning to think, OK, they're going to to start getting married and having children. Now what are we going to do? There were discussions going on right from certainly from the beginning of the Nazi period. And I think even before about whether they should be sterilized in the event starting in nineteen thirty seven, about four hundred of them were compulsorily sterilized. So that's the largest single group of black victims and what they're victims of is sterilization.

The research over the last few years has shown that being sterilized, the fear of being sterilized, the knowledge that your friends had been sterilized and that you might be dominated by experience to give young black people in Nazi Germany.

Has there ever been a public memorial to the black Germans and what they suffered under the Nazi regime? Not that I'm aware of.

There are Stolper Steinert, stock of China or metal flax set into the pavement in German cities. And it's a memorial project that was developed by a particular artist in Cologne. I think that has become national and even international cooperation in other parts of the world. And these plaques are typically placed in front of the house where somebody live who was a victim of the Nazis, most of whom are memorials to Jews.

But there is at least one sort of pushed on to a black victim of the Nazis, Muhammad Hussein, who is one of two black men whom we know died as a result of being accused of having sexual relations with a white woman. So it was a death was on the cards, but it wasn't a widespread problem.

Doesn't that sound disturbingly familiar to the racist terror lynchings that were continuing in America at this time? It's those sort of crimes that would get you stoned to death or hung in the U.S. as well. And we've had historians on this podcast before, Shamma Adams, the fantastic Shems, talking about how even when black guys and officers went back to the US, they were continuing and continually the focus because they'd serve their country the focus of racist terror, lynchings in the United States.

It's it's remarkable to think that on both sides of the war, black people were being oppressed. Yes, indeed, one thing is a space about the experience of black Germans and that simply the fact that for a period and to some extent they were protected by virtue of the fact that Hitler hoped to recover Germany's colonies in Africa because most of these people had been colonial subjects or were the family's colonial subjects or could pretend to be colonial subjects, a practice already existed in the 1920s and 1930s of a certain amount of state sponsorship for people who found it harder and harder to get work and so on.

That continued into the 1930s in the form of both of allowing black people to perform in films, which had a colonial theme on one of the actors in those films with Muhammad Hussein, who I said died in a concentration camp as a result of his relationship with a white woman. And also there was formed what was known as the German Africa show, originally formed by a private entrepreneur and a black German performer, one of a number of traveling performance groups in which people like this involved anyway.

And it then came to be sponsored by the Nazi authorities for a while with a specific purpose, but with two purposes. One was to carry on propaganda for the German colonies. And so what the Africa show did was to travel around and have black performers, most of whom were born in Germany, some of whom were actually African-Americans or Afro Caribbeans. And all kinds of people got together on this show and praised the life in the German colonies and the products that came from the German colonies and pretend to be African native, which was another tradition of voluntary and compulsory performance on the part of black people right back into the late 19th century.

So they're pretending to be Africans. They're talking about how great life is and was in the colonies. And in fact, the Africa show was closed down at the point at which the black Africans on the stage started addressing the white Germans in the audience as our brothers, as they're trying to promote the idea of this of great colonial brotherhood. But that particular discourse wasn't working in Nazi Germany, so it came to an end. But the other purpose of the Africa show was very specifically to keep these people under control so that the authorities could have an eye on them, know who they were and where they were.

And that, I suppose, kind of prefigures what we see developing during war time, which is a more comprehensive notion about doing something with black people and also the beginnings of first evidence of people being arrested and interned in concentration camps simply for being black. Well, thank you so much at the beginning of this podcast, you said the Holocaust is far more complex than we often like to remember. And you have reminded us about just how varied the expressions of Nazi racism was during and before the Second World War.

Can I just ask and I think it's probably more important in this episode than any other. Where can people learn more about these experiences?

The Viña Library, for example, has recently done exhibitions focusing on one hand on Roma victims and on the other on black victims through the eyes of the experience of a particular Afro German. And both of those exhibitions, I think, are still online. The Imperial War Museum, many people will be aware, has had a very distinguished Holocaust gallery for many years. That gallery is now under redevelopment. It's due to open in March. Twenty, twenty one.

The last I heard was they have to open whether they like it or not. I mean, they've had a number of delays, but it will open. And that gallery, the curator. So part of you have given a lot of time to trying to tell the story, not just of the show, the mass murder of the Jews, but of the other victims, and to integrate that into the overall narrative. I think we could say the same for the US Holocaust Memorial Museum, which is a much bigger and much bigger machine and much slower to change.

But the curators there, too, are taking account of this wider picture necessarily, I think, because it's so present in the minds of historians and what's in the minds of historians is in books. And I could give you a theocracy. Well, people are looking for things to read in lock down.

And of course, they can read your own work on this, which is some great articles, especially some shorter pieces in the conversation, which I've read. And I really do recommend as well. Thank you. Not a problem at all.

Aw, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Thank you for having me. Ivan, thanks for reaching the end of this podcast.

Most of you probably asleep, so I'm talking to your snoring force. But anyone who's awake, it would be great if you could do me a quick favor, head over to wherever you get your podcasts and rate it five stars and then leave a nice glowing review. It makes a huge difference for some reason to how these podcasts do madness. I know, but them's the rules. Then we go farther up the charts, more people listen to us and everything will be awesome.

So thank you so much.

Sleep well.

VHI life is more than just a decision to get life insurance. It's a decision to live life with less worry, to not think twice about the financial security of your children and to give your partner peace of mind. Vaginae life. It's a good decision for life for a quote called 1890, double for double for double four terms and conditions apply for VHI health care. Doc trading is VHI. Health care is regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland and is tied to the life insurance policy for VHI Life Term Insurance.