Hi, everyone. Welcome to Dance Knows history hit still on the half time road trip, as you heard from yesterday's podcast, we were on the Jurassic coast. The fossil hunting was reasonably successful. No ichthyosaurs. You'll be very surprised to learn. But the odd bit of ammonite. We also did see some Second World War Bech differences. So on the whole, it was mission successful. This episode of history is in fact a a glimpse at our new podcast, The Ancients.

It's storming the charts here in the U.K. It's doing well elsewhere in the world as well. It's Tristan Hughes looking at ancient history, not the Mediterranean basin, but ancient civilizations all over the world. Is talking Dr. Steele Brand. He's an expert in Republican Rome. So what else talk about really from the place where the Roman Republic went to die, went to kill itself, commit suicide, the battle of Phillipi. If you want to watch documentary in history or listen to other episodes of this podcast and the ancients, you do.

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Still, it is great to have you back on the show, have you been? I have been doing OK given the circumstances and it's fantastic to be back.

Another great story about state. We are talking about the battles of Phillipi. I guess it's wrong to say battles, right? Correct. Yes.

And this is a defining moment in Roman history. This is when the Roman Republic can we see it dies.

I think we have to be a little more dramatic in our phraseology there. It commits suicide. Ironically, we can use that term, as we'll see probably near the end of the podcast. But this is a mass suicide on the part of the Roman Republic itself and particularly its citizen soldiers.

So let's start with the background, first of all, and one of the most significant one of the biggest events in ancient history, the assassination of Julius Caesar.

Is this the spark for civil war to erupt once more?

Right. So we've had a century of troubles. Appian starts off this way to get the cracky, that we have a number of problems that pop up between and Sulla.

We've got another generation and then you've got acclaiming set of issues that seem like they're going to culminate in civil war, which does break out between Caesar and Pompey. Well, Caesar, really, against all the odds, the guy just does not seem to understand the possibility of defeat. Caesar ends up beating Pompey, and this is remarkable. And so now he's he's a tyrant in Rome. He's a really interesting tyrant because he's clearly overthrowing the Constitution. He's passing laws basically himself.

And he's he's behaving in such a way that he's acting like a king, however.

And what gets the sense he's surprised that the event there are still enough Republicans, especially the younger group of Republicans who are inspired by people such as Cato and to a certain extent by a Pompey. But this idea of standing up to a tyrant, this group of people gathered together and they assassinate Caesar.

It's a really, really well hidden conspiracy. Despite the fact that plutocratic plays out, there are lots of importance. But I do think Caesar has this sense that he's almost kind of invincible or he's so confident in himself that this couldn't happen.

And of course it does. And then the question is, Will, what comes next? And at the moment, chaos breaks out and people aren't really sure exactly after that as he's breathing his last. What's going to happen?

And who are these young men who have been inspired by these early Republican figures? Who are these men who assassinate Caesar?

So we've got three factions that emerge with the death or the assassination of Caesar. And the two leading figures are Brutus in cash. And when I teach my class on the Roman Republic, I actually have them. I assign them a statesman. I give them personality test. They are assigned a statesman that they have to live with and die with because they all die in the end. And it's interesting how people really get into the personalities of Brutus and Cassius.

And what's pretty great is the sources. We've got three main sources for the battle of Philipines. We've got Castro, we've got AP and then we've got Plutarch.

They paint a pretty similar picture of all of them.

And Brutus, he's mild, he's mild tempered. He is very philosophically minded. He seems to get along with people, but more importantly inspires people because he has an upright character. There's maybe only one or two people with a more famous upright character, Kato being one of them, possibly Cicero, although Cicero knows how to do politics and knows how to do it in a dirty fashion in a way that Brutus doesn't seem to be able to do. And he is possibly this is what some people think.

He's possibly the illegitimate son of Caesar. Probably not. Almost certainly not.

But Plutarch mentions this, and he is he's a foil to his friend, who's the instigator for Brutus, and that's Cassius and Cassius.

Poor Cassius.

And this is what I'm always telling my students, don't get fascist from Shakespeare because Cassius is he's a lot more than that in Shakespeare, kind of playing off Plutarch, but not fully wants to set these two up is two very different people.

Temperamentally, they are different. Cassius has a remarkable background. He is the guy who's constantly rescuing the republic from defeat.

So when the disastrous battle of Korea happens and Crassus gets himself isolated and then murdered with most of his army destroyed by the Parthians, you've got Kashish saving the day, keeping disaster from occurring back in Syria and basically holding the line against repeated offensives of the Parthians and then of the Oradea phases of the Civil War.

He is successful sea against the forces of Caesar, whereas Pompey is unsuccessful, so is the steller subordinate. But he's always fighting for lost causes. And there's even a story that as a young boy, he'd shown his temperament for always hating tyranny personally by getting in basically a fistfight with. A sun of solar, wind, solar, sun Faustus, it said, My father's awesome and my father is all powerful and Cachets said absolutely not. And he beats the boy and even offers to do it twice when he almost gets in trouble with solar.

So you've got these two really different personalities, one who is fiery. He knows how to lead men. He's pretty good in a crisis. The other who's softer, but he's inspiring because of a sense of virtue. And these two men get together and get a couple pretty substantial cabal of others to lead this first faction. They're the liberators. If you are a Republican or the conspirators, if you like Julius Caesar, they're the ones who end up affecting the assassination.

And these Liberator's, Cassius Brutus and the rest who are in the circle, as it were. Do they stay in Rome long following the assassination, or is it very quickly that they decide to up sticks and move, as it were?

Well, Cicero makes the point that you guys planned the assassination really well, but you didn't plan what was going to happen next.

I think they just thought the republic was spontaneously going to resurrect itself. That is it. What happened? The senators in the Senate that are actually in the theater of Pompeii or they're in a building attached to it. They are panic when they see Caesar being assassinated. The mob dearly loves Caesar for a whole host of reasons. They're a little uncomfortable, a little uncertain about what Caesar had intended for himself. Nobody knows what Caesar had intended for himself. So the people are confused.

The senators are scared.

The conspirators actually have to go run up and hide out on the capital. The capital is basically almost in a state of siege. There are people who want to even burn down the conspirators or the assassins houses, and you don't have the reemergence of the republic. However, what's really interesting, he's got two other factions.

So we've got the Liberator's, you've got Marc Anthony. He's the highest legitimate authority in the Roman Republic at the time. And you've got the master force of Caesar, Marcos, Lepidus, the guys who have the most legitimate power. They basically effect a truce. You even have Brutus and Cassius dining with Lepidus and Anthony right after the assassination. And it looks like maybe the heirs of Caesar, the ones closest to him, the cesareans, are going to affect a peace.

You've got this group of fence sitters who've done well under Caesar. They have positions that they're going to inherit from Caesar and they're the moderate cesareans.

So it looks like at the end of March, you may actually have a peace break out between these various factions. And then, of course, the whole thing is upset by the entrance of the nephew of Caesar. And then this is the grand nephew, I should say, of Caesar.

And this is going to cause all of this to start breaking down very fast.

And who is this grand nephew of Caesar? Oh, well, we Republicans are we have to stick with calling him Octavian. Of course, you could call him Augustus, but probably the most accurate term for the day would be the young Caesar. If I have a slip of the tongue, I'd call him Octavia. That simply because I'm looking at the fact that as this background, that is, it's relatively obscure, it's a well-to-do family, but not one of the most famous is the like I said, the is the son of his niece and Attia, and he's adopted by Caesar.

And he's a bit of a sickly child. He's always going to be plagued with a kind of weak constitution. But he plays the man his mother says play the man. And as a teenager, I think he's nineteen at the time he comes into Italy and assumes the mantle of his adopted father, Caesar. And adoption in Rome is a very serious matter. You're adopted. You become a member of that family. You inherit that legitimacy. And our TV does an amazing job.

And he steps into that role. He even begins raising legions from his father's old veterans.

So you can see there are people who are dedicated to Caesar's legacy and they do not want to see Caesar's legacy to disappear and they want to see the liberators punished and they are attracted to Octavian. And Octavian can use that against Antony, who has seized Caesar's papers a lot of the wealth of Caesar and is starting to do some dodgy things with them. It looks like the war that's going to break out is going to be between these two presumptive heirs of the legacy of Caesar, his legal heir, and then his lieutenant, Marc Anthony.

But that's not what ends up happening, is it?

Octavian is this wrecking ball just goes smashing in between these two factions in the aftermath of Caesar's death, which ultimately leads to Brutus and Cassius. I'm Mark Antony. For their relations falling apart.

That's right. And one has to wonder, how long could that peace have held between Antony and Brutus and Cassius? It's one of these questions we'll never have answered, but I'll keep it ensures this does not occur. What is it happening is Cassius and Brutus have got to get out of Rome and then eventually out of Italy, which is an embarrassment because Brutus is the urban pride. He's supposed to be there in the city, he's not allowed to leave, so they sort of had to make special exceptions for this and then they're given small appointments out in the east.

And that means that the most important figures of the Republican cause have now left with a republic that isn't actually restored. Not yet. And so when Brutus and Cassius, they head east, what do they start doing, what is their aim?

Well, initially they seem to be waiting, but caches, of course, moves a lot faster. He will start gaining control of the forces out in the east. This happens over late. Forty four into early forty three.

He's going to they're given, like I said, small assignments, but they basically forget what these small assignments are and they begin taking over control of the resources. What do they need? They need men and they need money.

And there are some allies who had been at least part of the cause and not the friends of Caesar. At least they've been part of the conspiracy. They will join with Cassius, who's operating in Asia.

Brutus comes in to Athens and he starts teaching philosophy. This is what he does. You know, Cassius arrives and he gets to the middle of a crisis. There are a number of legions trying to gain control of Syria. And he swoops in and everyone rallies to his cause. It's stirring. Whereas back in Athens, Brutus is teaching philosophy. But what Plutarch says that what Brutus is also doing is he's taking the lay of the land and he's seeing work and he gets support and he starts gathering forces to his his side.

And as soon as he can declare himself, he gathers a number of young men to whom they join the army, including the poet Horace, who maybe will have cause to mention him in the end. But Marcus Cicero, the son of the elder Cicero, will also join Brutus cause and then he will end up in forty three, defeating the brother of Mark Antony. Mark Antony, by this point in time back in Italy, looks like he's making himself out to be kind of like another Caesar.

And Brutus is going to have a pretty good campaign where he defeats Antony's brother, he captures him and you've got the liberators out of Italy, but basically in control of all the resources of the east, which is what Solla had done.

And this is what Pompey had done before them.

Absolutely. When you think of that time period, these eastern provinces, the Roman Empire, this is where the wealth is. This is where all the money is. And said Brutus in Athens, in Greece, cashes in Asia where he's been before. He knows the place very well. And he's this charismatic leader, too. It sounds very good at this point for them. It does.

When you get to forty three and we haven't mentioned what's going on in the West, you have the forces of Mark Anthony defeated. You have legitimate commands now bestowed on Cassius and Brutus up to this point.

Are they warlords? Do they actually deserve to have these positions?

But no legitimacy is conferred on them, it looks like as spring forty three is moving into summer, the Republicans have absolutely won this whole thing.

And certainly Brutus and Cassius are really, really good position in control of so much money and so many troops with the virtue of Brutus.

On the one hand, the generalship of Cassius.

On the other hand, you mentioned the events in the West that are happening at this time. Let's go into that now, because as these things have been happening in the east, we see this other hero of the republic back in Rome making his own progress. Yeah, and I mean, the story of Cicero is I mean, it's fascinating, up to forty four, forty three, but it's even more fascinating the decisions that the old man makes and forty three.

So Cicero had always been on the fence about what to do throughout the phases of the Civil War or Pompey or Caesar. He's often seen as a vacillator. I don't think that's actually the case. I think Cicero has a really high ideal of what the ideal statesmen should be. And so he's not included in the conspiracy to assassinate Caesar. One source.

Nicolas has the Brutus hailing Cicero for Cicero in the Republic the moment after they've killed Caesar and Cicero, sort of thinking, am I supposed to stand up?

Like, what do I do?

I have applause. Am I a part of this? But no one includes a minute because they thought it is an old man. And that's a good critique, because unlike so many other old men like Quintus Fabius, Maximus or Idealist Palace men in their 60s, 70s and 80s of the Republic who can fight, Cicero has always been very timid. He's a little more like Brutus in this way, physically timid. And what he does is he starts writing letters to them and throughout forty four, he sees in the West the breakdown of order and he sees Mark Antony start forging papers.

He witnesses a number of things that Caesar had done in the 50s with Crassus and with Pompey. He sees commands extended for long periods into other provinces such as Gaul, which Scotians just like what Caesar had done.

Would this have happened without Octavian? We don't know. But he sees Octavian out there wondering on the loose and he thinks he can mould Octavian. He always wonders, is this the right thing to do?

He doesn't trust him. He writes this to his friends in his letters, but he's trying to pull Octavian away from Mark Antony. And how does he do this? He does it through the old Republican way by writing letters and by giving speeches. And here's what's great about Cicero. We have all these speeches. He's giving a really, really great speeches to the Senate, but also to the people. And this is they're usually alternate if you read the full epics.

And he doesn't actually open the big verbal tirade between Antony and Cicero, it's actually opened by Antony. So Antony wants support from Cicero. Cicero is not willing to do it, as Antony looks like he's grasping at power. And so when Antony throws down the gauntlet, Cicero says, OK, I'll pick it up. And this is a really big moment for Cicero.

He actually had thought about leaving get away from the whole thing.

I think a huge part of this is his wife for most of his life. Has he divorced her? A lot of reasons why, but he'd also lost his daughter in forty five. And I think what Cicero's realizing is what else do I have to live for, if not for doing something truly noble? And he's writing lots and lots of philosophy and he writes to his friends and he says, How can I fight this battle with these young men? He says, words will be my weapons.

That's what I'll use.

And he's he's thinking philosophically, but he's also thinking of letters that he's writing to those who have the armies and speeches that he's giving to confer legitimacy. And so he engages in this rhetorical battle. And it's long I mean, it last really November, December for certain into April. And there are lots of opponents. They usually have the floor before he does. He's responding, but he convinces people through his words to declare Antony illegitimate, to declare Antony's opponents legitimate.

The next legitimate console's courteous and Pinza are convinced to take up arms and go take out Marc Anthony up in the north. And this is the last great rhetorical gasp of the republic. It's it's when you have words being used to persuade the Senate and the people to make decisions in terms of policy. Of course, lives are on the line. The lines are always on the line.

And war and Cicero successful and the consul's defeat. Mark Antony outside. Mutya And then a really strange, ironic twist of fate. Both console's die and the defeated Antony survives. And you've got a power vacuum.

And this is the this is the opportunity for Octavian, who basically at this point in time have been subsumed under the Republican cause to break through Cicero and the Senate and eventually over the summer and the fall through negotiations, he's going to, in November, form a pact with the master of horse Lepidus, with the ex console Mark Antony. And that's the formation of that triumvirate. You feel so sorry for your sister hearing that because it sounds like he played every card, right?

But the fortunes of war, the misfortune of battle, that these two key allies, these two consoles, they both die and then his opponent ultimately becomes the victor.

Yes, it is absolutely ironic in a Polybius, perhaps, even as Cicero would say, it's not mere fortune because you can use a fortune this way, but it also could be fortune in the sense of providence is sort of moving things in a direction, but it unravels fast for Cicero.

And what has he just done? Well, he's written all these speeches against Mark Anthony and Marc Anthony is furious with them because, of course, Marc Anthony lost that rhetorical battle and they're going to issue another round of proscriptions. Prescription is it's basically a list for people that are deemed enemies of the state and who, of course, is at the top of Antony's list. Well, it is Cicero, supposedly Octavian. The young Caesar argues for a couple of days saying, well, he doesn't want his old friend Cicero to suffer this fate.

But in the end, Antony wins out. And so this is the stance of the forming of the second triumvirate. That's right. And this one, at least in terms of law, is actually a triumvirate. And although they pushed through the triumvirate through dubious means, Octavian gets the consulship by sending an embassy of Centurion's to demand the consulship in the summer of forty three. But by November, we clearly have the numbers as the power of the warlords, if you will, in the West.

I really think they have just a little bit less legitimacy than what you've got going on in the East between Brutus and Cassius at this point in time. Because a civil war is clearly going on. Legitimacy is less the question, the ideas behind the forces or what's in question. And I think everyone understands that Lepidus, Antony and Octavian, they are friends for the moment. They're allies for a kind of autocratic regime that it seems like Caesar was going to set up.

Whereas out in the East, Brutus and Cassius are holding on to this idea that we need the restoration of the republic. And there are warlords.

They're accumulating a lot of money, getting a lot of soldiers, but they have very different ideas of what the victors should do with their power. And that is going to have to be decided by some sort of battle.

Indeed, it sounds like with the removal of Cicero from Rome of his death, this is a clear line in the sand that's been drawn between these two bodies, these powerful bodies, but also this line in the sand, this division between the two ideologies of them as well.

That's right. And we see this as we approach Phillipi. There's some really good speeches put in the mouths of particularly Kashish. And I think to what extent can we believe that the speeches are word for word there?

Well, this is a big topic that a lot of historians discuss. I think we can discount a lot of the particulars, but it's possible that some of what was recorded was actually spoken. At the moment, it's possible we do have family records and things of that nature. But I think the sense that Appian provides us of what Kashish is telling the men and also this is verified by their coins. We have coin's by the numbers. Now, this is hard physical evidence and the coins of the triumvir as they are of themselves.

And what's really interesting is the coins that are minted by a Brutus and Cassius Cassius does something very traditional. He's got a symbol of liberty and Brutus puts his own head on it, which is really ironic because that's not traditional. But the other side of Brutus is the Freedman's cap and daggers that hate what we're fighting for here is the Republic and Liberty.

And what Cassius is saying in the most conservative a traditional way is what we're fighting for. Here is what Rome has always been that's in the coins.

And the speeches make this even clear. And this is where this famous line is from. Cassius, before they march over back into the depths of Europe, Cassius tells his men the best cause in war is the justice of your cause. And he believes that they are more just he believes that they're fighting for the republic, for liberty. He believes the autocrats are not fighting for that. And the autocrats speeches leading up to the battle throughout forty three and forty two hour.

We'll give you plunder, we'll give you power, you will legitimate us.

We will reward you with colonies. It's a very different set of values.

So one side is you're fighting for me and I can give you rich rewards. On the other side. You're fighting for this really just a noble cause.

That's the idea. Yes, that's the idea. Now, de Brutus and Cassius embody that. I mean, the republic's been in a mess for decades, but essentially, yes, I think you do have two very different ideas of what the future is supposed to look like and what the Roman way of life, specifically the Roman political way of life is supposed to be. And so war is coming. They've got these armies emerging in the east and the west, and what is the the road to Philipines?

Well, how do these two armies end up fighting this place in the central Mediterranean?

So what you've got is in some ways a parallel again with Pompey. Plutarch plays this up a lot between Pompey and Caesar, and you can't push that too far.

But the Republicans, for the most part, control the seas and some of the forces that Cassius had defeated in Asia, particularly the commander Merkies, he had put in charge of the Navy. And they're trying to block the maneuvers of Antony and Octavius to get out of Italy and basically attack them out in the east.

What's been going on in the east? Well, both Brutus and Cassius have been remarkably successful. They meet a couple of times once, Smyrna and then at Sardis, once and for three, and then again before the last campaign of forty two. And Cassius has consolidated all of Asia and he's actually about to go settle affairs with Cleopatra. Not the kind of affair that Mark Anthony and Caesar had had. He's thinking in terms of military matters, although you never know with Cleopatra.

She's she's, she has talents, but he's not able to do this because Brutus says, you know, we need to get back together. What is Brutus been doing? Well, he's defeated Marc Anthony, his brother. Eventually when they hear that Cicero has been assassinated, when they hear that people have been prescribed by the numbers, he ends up allowing his men to dispatch Antony's brother by killing the hostages. They're saying there will be no mercy, certainly for the leaders.

And Brutus has to subdue Lyceus. And he has a pretty decent campaign in Lyceus and he has to use brutality. But he also tries as much as possible to use clemency, whereas Castro seems a little more no nonsense. They're able to amass a substantial force of troops. We're talking maybe around 90 thousand or so for the liberators. And the numbers are going to have around one hundred and ten thousand. And that I mean, we're talking enormous forces.

But I think something else that you see by the time the forces finally meet is the commanders are absolutely reconciled for the liberators. Several times Cassius and Brutus had heard rumors about the other and there were accusations that have been atrocities. As always happens in war, Brutus have been more strict.

Cassius had been more lenient. And there's one moment where they actually lock themselves into a room and they're arguing. They're shouting at each other. The subordinates on the outside are frustrated. It says they're even brought to the point of tears. But in the end, they make amends with each other and they make peace with each other. And they remind themselves that what we're doing here is for a higher cause. And cachaça against the opposition of his subordinates gives a lot of his war chest, about a third of it, over to Brutus to be able to use.

And they can pool their resources together.

Whereas Antony and Octavian Antony is like this little kid. He always underestimates Octavian, which is not a good thing to do, but he's thinking, I'm going to strike out ahead. He actually is able to cross the Adriatic through some good luck. They're able to evade the Republican Navy. They make their way across into Europe or across the Adriatic, into Macedonia. And Octavian will then eventually follow. They're able to get most of their forces across and they could start making their way up to Phillipi.

Cachaça has reduced roads. Bridges has reduced Lyceus.

They will meet the first advance guard of the Traverse and through a bit of good maneuvering on the part of both Brutus and Cassius and Brutus is two parts of this campaign is is ill, and yet they're able to make their way to a really, really advantageous position outside the town of Phillipi. They have access to the sea. They have really well fortified position, a little smaller numbers than the numbers.

But the resupply is going to be endless because they have access to the sea down to the south, just south of Phillipi. The true numbers, on the other hand, have to occupy a space of ground across from the Liberator's and they do not have as much provisions. The tremors are having to constantly say, we're going to give you money, we're going to give you money. Brutus and Cassius are constantly giving money and giving money so that that tells the troops they're honoring their word, whereas the forces of Octavia and Antony not so much, but Antony as fast.

He gets there fast and everyone's surprise, they entrench their positions. Octavian follows after he's ill, of course, as always.

But Antony is going he's already shown before either of the battles fought that he is going to be the most active.

He's going to be the one that's going to take the offensive. And for the Liberator's, the question is, can we hold him at bay?

I mean, it does sound from what you've said there, that I know this this Brutus and this Octavian as well. But for the past, the Phillipi, does it really feel like that this is going to be a clash between the skill? Mark Anthony and the skill of caches, one certainly gets the sense, you know, the sources are confused about Orcadian, which is no surprise in the Moutinho campaign, that campaign in forty three, it's quite likely sort of hiding out for part of it or those who toneless is a sort of like a it's like a Cork biographer.

He says, oh no, he carries the standard.

We don't really know, but he seems to survive when everyone else dies. So it is this ability to do that, which is a skill. But he's constantly sick, is no battlefield experience. If he does, it certainly isn't impressive. Whereas Anthony I mean, he has been fighting with Caesar all the way back to 54 in Gaul. He distinguished himself during the Civil War. He has no administrative talents whatsoever. But in a crisis, Antony's the man you want even better than Cassius and Cassius.

He's always been a great subordinate. But the question is, can he be a great overall commander?

And I think the only time will tell and the month of October would determine that for the rest of history.

Well, let's get on throughout the month of October. The lines are drawn near Phillipi, over 100000 men possibly on the field there. What happens? The first battle, what happens?

So what we have and this position is we've got the city of Phillipi behind Brutus and Cassius line. They have a really, really long line and they've got two separate camps. This is going to be a problem because it's going to work against command. And control is the principle of warfare. You've got to have commanders who can have command and control of their forces. The Trampas have one giant camp together and Anthony realizes if they don't engage in battle, they're going to suffer because they're not going to be able to get enough supplies.

And the men are getting antsy on really on both sides or particularly on the side of the traverse because they want to receive the spoils that they've been told that they will. So he's got to bring a battle about and cashes what he does. He had Brutus are holding the line. They'll bring out their men, but they'll never bring out a general engagement as to what Antony starts doing is what you've got is these two very long lines to basically the north of Phillipi.

And Antony starts cutting a perpendicular line through a swamp and he does this behind a group of reeds. And this is really it's a marvel. It's an engineering marvel, which shouldn't surprise us. These are Romans was able to do this, but he cuts this. It's a cold, a causeway so that he can get around caches. What's his plan here? His plan is to cut off their supply and to force them to either act or to isolate them.

It's a really, really smart move. And the problem is that caches discovers it.

And you've got this game of chess going on basically here at cash counters.

So he's going to build a wall to cut off the line to Antony is stretching out.

And when Antony discovers this, he basically says, oh, we're not playing chess, we're going to play a different game. And this is where you really see Antony rising to a challenge, as he's always done in his life. The forces of cash out there with they're digging their trenching tools. And then Anthony redis all of his army and he tells them, bring entrenching tools with them and they go and they just start attacking directly in the center of this line.

And caches is flabbergasted. This happens the men who are building the line up to cut off Antony Rush back, but they've got like entrenching tools and Antony's men cut them down.

They report them back into the swamp and then they break through.

He sort of starts moving his entire army obliquely toward cachaça line. They break through cachaça line. They start tearing down the palace, they fill in the ditch and they're even hit caches. Camp caches try to stop this. It's astounding what has just happened. It's basically sheer willpower that has pushed and taken the offensive, which another principle of war that he's using here and surprise and they've crushed through into caches camp. He tries to hold a standard up to prevent his men from fleeing.

But it looks like all is going to be lost by this point in time. Octavian, who's facing Brutus on this. So you've got the triumvir, the line of the numbers on the left and the right line of the Liberator's Brutus men see what's going on. And without Brutus giving them a command, they just rush into attack. Octavia's part of the line on the Trampas left. We'll hear the exact opposite occurs again.

The initiative, the offensive is rewarded and Brutus forces totally overwhelm Octavian and Octavia's put to fly Octavia. They even break into Octavia's tent, the gash holes in his litter and people are thinking, oh, they've killed him.

You know, no one knows what everyone looks like. It's before TV. So it's like maybe they killed a young man. They're not entirely certain, but no. True. To his behavior, Octavian has managed to get himself taken away from the battle before it's gotten to its intense part, and he's out hiding in the swamps. And you've got this really weird thing that happens as night begins to settle. You've got the Liberator's in possession of the transverse camp and you've got the tremblers in possession of Kashish camp.

And the men lose all discipline of discipline and they just start looting the camps and they start bleeding back across enemy lines, carrying all the stuff. And there's the remark things by Appian or Plutarch that they look more like porters than soldiers. They're just like carrying all these supplies, the worst event of the entire day, because at this point it's a stalemate. Brutus is one. Cassius has lost. Octavian has lost. Anthony has won the worst event that occurs.

And I think this is the decisive moment in all of October is when cachaça retreats up to Phillipi. It's the heights above Phillipi. And he's looking out to try and figure out what has happened. So he'd been put to fly after he tries to raise the standard, he sees his men are in flight, but then dusk comes up everywhere he can't see. And so he sends a soldier out to go find bruddah. So what's happened on that side?

Well, he sees the force of Calvary. He can't see who it is. Approach. I think the guy's name is Stettinius. They approach cachaça, legate, and he can't really see what happens. It says his eyesight is poor. And Kashish thinks, oh, my goodness, they've actually captured my legates. And Brutus has been defeated. I have been defeated. And he makes this momentously horrific decision to have his slave kill him will probably.

And this is where the sources disagree with us. Some say Pandoras his friedemann murdered him.

Some say no, no cachets ends up taking his own life where he has been. D'Arista it. I think it's almost certain that Kashish commit suicide. It was his birthday. He's an epicurean epicurean view on suicide and he will take his own life. And in doing this, he takes the best hope away from the Republican cause.

I know it's this is a it seems like a massive mistake when those big mistakes in history, you see all this leading commander who still got a chance of his side winning this clash against Octavian and Marc Anthony. But because of false intelligence, because he believes the wrong thing, he's taking his own life. And as you say, this is a huge a hammer blow for the chances of the republic.

It is. And everyone's devastated. In fact, his Leggat says when he comes back and sees what's happened, he feels he feels responsible. I stayed out too long. He commits suicide. So and you've got this idea that all these people are just ready to throw away their life.

And if Kashish had not done that, who knows what would have happened? You know, one can only guess.

OK, so that's the end of the first natto cash assistance. Mark Antony and Octavia both still alive and Brutus is still alive. We're still a significant portion of the army, so it's not over yet. Is there now a brief interlude? There is.

You've got about three weeks and these three weeks. So the first battle is on the third. The second battle on the twenty third threes.

Three weeks are devastating for the dithering, Brutus, and it's easy to play up too much the portrait that we're given and Plutarch. But I think when you corroborate that with what we know of Brutus, what we have in the other sources, what we've read about him, I think the picture is probably pretty accurate, Brutus. I think he does.

He does a couple of good things. He promises to pay the men and then he pays them. He takes cash, his body. He's devastated when he hears about what's happened. He takes cash, his body, and he sends it to Tharsis, the island the fastest, and they bury it there. They don't let the public funeral. But after these immediate actions, the forces draw up against one another.

It's very clear Brutus is not going to take the initiative.

And this is where I think the ancient sources are perhaps doing too much character study and actually not doing the right battle analysis. Because what you have happen is remember that line that Anthony had been cutting to cut off Brutus and Cassius supply route to the sea wall. Now, that's been achieved and there's a danger. Are the numbers actually going to be able to cut us off? Are they going to be the ones who can gain access to supplies and us not?

I still think there's a really good argument to be made for Brutus fighting a battle of attrition or a war of attrition and holding out and dragging it out because the members are in a terrible position there, even these heavy rains that fall. And that's when you've got this situation where malaria can creep in sickness, pestilence, then it spreads. That could have done off the numbers. But the main problem is Brutus himself. And he gives a speech and it's a lame speech, like the lamest speech one can imagine.

And to his troops, it's nothing like what Kashish had given. And he watches his troops slowly become more frustrated at the same time that he's observing Antone's forces become more inspired and caches. Suicide was discovered pretty early by Anthony, and he is he sends men out to taunt Brutus for. Is he saying they're cowards and not coming up behind their lines, why are you hiding from us? And this is a really big deal and the Roman world of honor of the Greek and Roman world of honor and Brutus, a good commander, would have said absolutely not.

Hold the line, do what you're supposed to do. You obey me. Remember, the cause we're fighting for is not about our own honor. This is about the honor of the republic. You could have given a speech, cachaça, done this sort of thing. But he doesn't. And instead he swayed and he's moved and his men slowly start to wear him down in three weeks is an eternity when you're waiting and when you're not used to being in command of such an enormous amount of forces.

And the stakes are so high, this is playing into Anthony's hand, despite the fact that he's losing resources. And the event that actually prompts the second battle of Phillipi is so telling. You've got a seasoned veteran who has fought in the civil wars, who's fighting for Brutus, had fought in the first battle of Phillipi. He rides past Brutus when Brutus is he's sort of talking to his men.

He goes out into the battlefield and he publicly defects in front of everyone to the side of Antony. And it's embarrassing. And Brutus, this is when Brutus either out of anger, out of a very legitimate fear that they're going to be more defections, that the morale is going to crumble. He launches a general engagement on the twenty third of October.

We've got basically the battle that's going to decide the fate of the Roman Republic. And it looks in some ways kind of like the first one.

So what happens? So what we've got is you've got Brutus, who's taken a position on the right arm of his army, and he's had to extend his line out a little thin.

Remember, the numbers are still a little less for the part of the Liberator's. And Brutus is successful on the right part of his line and he's going to be facing Octavian. And Octavian is actually in the battle. I think Octavian gets the sense I've got to be present for at least a part of this because I cannot let Anthony take all the glory. And Anthony is hanging over on the right side of the transverse line Brutus forces. They managed to outflank part of Octavius.

And that army pushes through and it looks like they may be able to envelop that part of the line. But in doing so, Brutus separated from his center and the lines already too thin there. And the transverse forces are able to exploit that gap, break through the center and then circle around and instead envelop Brutus. And it unravels very, very quickly. Brutus, the men rallied to him. The fighting is already really, really close. And so you've got this panic that can ensue by men who don't have enough space to be able to will the gladius.

It said that the forces don't even hurl their javelins like they typically would. They just get there and they fight each other face to face as quickly as they can. This is not covid approved the way that they're fighting. And so what ends up happening is they get boxed in. You've got the triumvir forces totally available. Brutus and Brutus is forced to watch all of his closest friends who rallied to his banner get killed one by one defending him and the last thing he sees because he flees the battlefield.

The last thing he sees are all of his closest friends running away from the battlefield as he escapes up the hill. And Anthony, again taking the initiative. Antony knows this has to be an annihilation. He actually is roving throughout the battlefield looking for all the enemy commanders. The junior officers is massacring as many of them as possible. They actually block the gates to the camp. And when Brutus finally recovers again to the heights of Phillipi, the mountains behind Phillipi, he's got less than four legions left.

It's a total victory for the triumvir. And then he's got to make his own decision about what to do.

And does it feel like as these soldiers are falling left, right and center in Brutus, his army, and especially those ones higher up who have the idea, very much the idea of restoring the republic as they feel the idea of restoring the republic, that is also starting to wither away?

It is. And there's this sort of cult of suicide that has developed, especially among the Republicans who are saying stoicism, skepticism and epicurean ism. They all have these different ideas and notions of what is the ethical way to die. And you've got a number of the Republican elite who just flee into the battle. I think Kato's son goes into the battle, only has sword. He doesn't have armor. He rushes into the battle. He dies in a heap.

Several other Roman junior officers will do the same. A number of them had died next to Brutus. One gentleman makes it back to his tent. After the battle has ended, this Republican settles all his affairs, free some of his slaves and then has one slave that's with them. Kill them right there on the spot. It's creepy how they just sort of accept this idea that I must kill myself after I have been defeated. Is this this sort of sick, suicidal sense of honor?

Yes. As if they're so wedded to the idea that they couldn't they couldn't manage it without with the dream was dead, as it were. That sounds horrible because there are parallels actually throughout history in some cases.

Well, Brutus, he's got a pathetic end in a lot of way.

So he retreats up to the hills behind Phillipi. He's sort of testing the men, you know, can we rally the cause? And they basically abandon him. And he's so frustrated because he says, you made me do what I didn't want to do and now you're not with me anymore.

That's not the sign of a good commander. And they sort of recover from this.

They realize that he's going to take matters into his own hands. The last thing he does is he he grabs them each by their hands and he shakes their hands and he goes off into the woods. And it says that even up to that point in time, the memories of all the friends that had died at the end of the battle just sort of floated around him. It's almost like he's seeing ghosts for the hours before his death and he goes out into the woods and with the help of his servant, he grasps the sword and he commits suicide.

And that's the end of the republic. It's fitting that both Cassius and Brutus committed suicide because this is basically what Rome citizen soldiers have done is equally interesting.

Of course, Morganstein, Octavian, even Octavian, they've played key roles in this victory in achieving such a total victory. But this whole idea that this is the end of the republic, it doesn't sound like there's much for Markinson Octavia's to do in the aftermath to really affirm that the republic is dead. It sounds like the actions of those on the losing side at the end of the battle, that really is the. She the nail in the coffin for the public, it's not what the victors do in the aftermath.

Absolutely. And to a certain extent that we can credit Octavian and Anthony because they have appropriately struck fear into their opponents that either through prescriptions or being brought back in a triumph, which is a sort of military parade, then being paraded in front of others and then executed, that they're going to have a really, really public awful and or even worse in some minds, they're going to have to receive the mercy, the clemency of people that they believe to be tyrants.

And that had already been done during Caesar. So this idea of all or nothing has really taken everyone. And they get this sense that now it is all over. And I cannot live in a world that's not Republican, that I cannot live at all. And so you've kind of mentioned it there.

But just to wrap it all up, I mean, why is the bus, the Phillipi with the two buses? Why are they so significant in Roman history?

I think this is the moment when the republic is certainly dead. I think you can make good arguments that Caesar's crossing the Rubicon, Caesar winning the civil war or Caesar's assassination, and then the triumvir taking over. These are death Nel's of the Republic. But you have at the battle of Phillipi, tens of thousands of citizen soldiers that are conscripted to fight for the republic. You have the triumvir. They have armies that have fought under Caesar. But had they lost these armies would have been I think they could have been tamed had Brutus and Cassius won.

We don't know what would have happened next, but I don't think they would have descended, at least not immediately, into an autocratic form of government, even a soft autocracy like Caesar had been instilling. But that is not what happens with Phillipi. The last two possible people that could have led the Republican cause have died by their own hands.

By dying in this way, they've shown that it's over. And more importantly, from a logistical standpoint, all the junior commanders, they're dead. You've got an entire generation of aristocrats and their sons who have been killed. They've committed suicide or they're mopped up by Anthony on the battlefield. The Phillipi Anthony knows this, which is why he's so decisive and cutting them down. They'd already done this in the West with those prescriptions. And now it's been affected in a much more rapid fashion on the battlefield.

There is no other force that can revive the republic. It cannot come back into existence. It is dead on twenty three October when the sun sets 23 October, the key date in Roman history for those very reasons.

And still, just before we go hpo Rome, we see the Battle of the Philipa. You mentioned earlier how Cato's son apparently walks into basuki strips of his armor just with the sword fights against the soldiers. We see that scene in the HBO Rome, but it's attributed to Brutus.

You know, I always want to be as sympathetic as possible to historical movies and TV shows so you can conflate stories in that manner.

And that's OK. However, that's not Brutus temperament and Brutus. The way that he died is so much more true to the story, to the spirit of the age, the cult of suicide. So that miniseries has a lot of good things about it. But I think you could have done something better with the Battle of Phillipi Brutus moment of triumph. It's probably right before Phillipi or after the assassination of Caesar. And I don't think they capture that as well, even though they captured a number of other things quite well, indeed.

But stick with Plutarch. Plutarch's got the best version of Brutus, and I think he nails the temperament of him better than anyone else.

Still, just before we go, your book is called Killing for the Republic Citizen Soldiers and the Roman Way of War. Fantastic. It's a brilliant read. Thank you so much for coming back on the show.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure. Hope you enjoyed the podcast just before you go a bit of a favor to ask. Totally understand. If you want to become a subscriber or pay me any cash, money makes sense. But if you could just do me a favor, it's for free. Go to iTunes or get your podcast. If you give it a five star rating and give it an absolutely glowing review, perjure yourself, give it a glowing review.

I'd really appreciate that. It's. Tough world law of the jungle out there. And I need all the fire support I can get. So that will boost it up the charts. It's so tiresome. But if you do, I'd be very, very grateful. Thank you.