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Heather was the greatest mom. To know Heather was to adore her. The thought of anyone wanting to walk up and do that to her was... It was surreal. It happened really fast. I heard the woman, Y'all know.

It's a busy shopping center Sunday afternoon.

Broad daylight. Witnesses. I heard that gunshot.

I saw her drop. Just shot the victim. Walked away. Her child was sitting in the car seat, not more than 5 feet away.

Witnesses describe a man wearing wig and a crooked mustache.

It was a brazen crime.

It was. Twelve people knew Heather was going to be in that parking lot, so we could narrow our focus. They were getting divorced. Their relationship was really rocky. I think the biggest bone of contention was custody. He's lied to you. He's lying. From the get-go. That's correct. We show him the video. We asked him if he knew who that was. Oh my God.

He clearly recognized someone. It's such a strange, twisted plot.

She leaned into him, was staring in his eyes, and I was like, That's evil.

After a young mom is murdered, detectives pursue the likely suspects before zeroing in on a most unlikely one. I'm Lester Holt, and this is Dateland. Here's Dennis Murphy with Deadly Swam.

April 26, 2009.

It was Sunday, just before 6:00 PM, when a woman in an SUV pulled into a shopping center in Snowville, Georgia, just east of Atlanta.

It's actually part of an entire strip where there's a Marshall, C. J. Max, and a bunch of other stores, so there was a lot of people around.

She only planned a quick stop. She had plans for dinner.

Every other Sunday, she would always stop by. She would get the stuffed chicken Marsala.

But this time was different. Some was waiting and watching, standing there watching what's transpiring between these two vehicles that are together in the parking lot. Moments later, a single gunshot. It happened so fast.

Snelleville, police. Snelleville, this is county. Someone says at the target on 124. They said someone just got shot.

A string of calls came into the Snelleville Police Department.

It's like an escalier. You can't miss it.

He ran at the back of the car, motionless. Oh, my God. She's trying to breathe. She's trying to breathe. The victim was gravely wounded. Witnesses could see the shooter walking away and phoned in his movements. He is going down while leaving. Chief of police, Roy Whitehead, was off that day.

They called me on every major crime that occurred, and I got a call at home that it happened, so I immediately went to the scene.

A patrol officer arrived first and assessed the situation. How much does he know at that point?

Only that someone was shot and the perpetrator had walked away towards the target store.

Is his job to secure the scene until detectives arrive, or what's his deal?

His first job is to check on that victim.

But it was too late. There was nothing the officer could do. The woman was dead. Nearby shoppers immediately told the officer the victim wasn't alone and pointed to a toddler in the car.

The child was still sitting in the back seat. The officer immediately took the child out of the car and put him in his patrol car.

From your first officer to the guys that were dispatched later, what was the picture that was coming together, chief?

We knew that the person had approached the vehicle and shot her in the forehead. Then the perpetrator walked away, putting the gun away as that person walked out.

Walked right out of the busy parking lot and disappeared. And you had no idea who that person was.

We had no idea who that was. At that point, we didn't even know who the victim was, but we were later able to find out because her license was in her purse.

Her name was Heather Stroop, and she was only 25. Officers assumed the child in the back seat was Heather's son, but the rest was a mystery. A birthday card in Heather's purse helped officers locate the residence of her parents, Buddy and Mary Allen. But they weren't home. Buddy was driving them back from a weekend in Mississippi when they got a call from Mary's father.

And then you got the phone call. He He said, Buddy, Heather's dead.

Just like that?

Just no thought. Just totally blank, because I would never thought he would have said those words to me. And then Mary said, What do you say? What do you say? I looked at her and said, Heather's dead. I had nothing else I could say. She melted into the sea and just lost it.

Meanwhile, you're driving?

Well, yeah. Not for very long, though. I pulled over and makes Thunder pass.

I mean, none of this makes sense just to get that message like that.

No, it didn't.

And your wife imagined saying, What? What? What? What? What are you telling me?

She couldn't talk. She couldn't talk. She was devastated. And I was, too.

Didn't know she'd been shot?

Didn't know where, how? No. I mean, eventually we got around to that in the conversation, but he just said she's dead, and they I had to go get Carson.

Carson was Heather's 19-month-old son who was found in the back of the SUV. Officers transported him to the hospital to make sure he was okay. Some of the worst hours of your life.

I'll tell you what, the rest of that drive, it was quiet except for tears. There was nothing we could say to console each other.

Back in Georgia, one of Heather's best friends also got a call. Jennifer Bagby was at work when she heard the news and immediately fell to her knees crying. She had just spoken to Heather hours before and couldn't make sense of it.

After I got my wits about me, I tried to get in the car to drive home, and I couldn't. I couldn't put the car in reverse. I couldn't move. I just cried.

Once Jennifer made it home, the shooting was already on the local news, and she spotted Heather's vehicle behind police tape.

It was part of a crime scene. You can see the blood spots on the pavement, and it was surreal. It was surreal. I was like, Oh, my God. How did this happen?

At the crime scene, detectives were wondering the same thing.

This is right here where it occurred.

A killer was at large, and every available officer came in to work the case. Detective Dean Boon and Detective Trey Downs took the lead.

So we went straight to the scene just to see what was going on, and they had a crime scene set up.

Officers canvas the area for the suspect but found nothing. And there were no signs of a struggle at the scene, which told investigators a few things.

Wasn't a kidnapping. It wasn't a gang initiation. There was no evidence to support any of that.

But we also knew, though, that she wasn't robbed because nothing was taken. Her wallet was there. So it wasn't a botch robbery going on. So it wasn't a botch robbery.

Police also found no sign of the murder weapon.

There was no physical evidence. There was no casing. So what does that tell you? Well, it indicated that most likely it was a revolver because nobody said anything about picking up a casing or anything like that.

So it's not spraying out shells?

No.

Any blood or something like in the category of DNA evidence that might be useful later?

No. The only blood on the scene belonged to Heather.

To solve Heather Stroob's murder, detectives would have to dig into her life. What exactly was going on?

She was broken. She took her vows very seriously.

They'd also have to find anyone who saw what happened in that parking lot.

Right as I passed her and him, my window was down and she said, Help.

Who was him?

Oh, my God.

The answer would take them to the most unlikely suspect. It was one of the most gut-wrenching murders Snellville police officers had ever seen. 25 five-year-old Heather Strube shot and killed in broad daylight, just a few feet away from her toddler's son. This shooter, for whatever reason, has elected to kill the victim right here in this busy section of town.

Absolutely.

The whole world is walking by.

I mean, it's pretty brazen that you're willing to walk up in daylight in an area that's so densely populated and perpetrate this crime.

Do you have a lot of incidents of violent crime?

No, we really don't.

Did Snowville have murders?

This was the 10th one in the history of the city, so we had only worked a couple, even in my whole there.

Detectives were working the case from every possible angle, but had no leads.

We have crime scene processing the scene, the vehicle where the actual shooting occurred.

A handful of witnesses told officers that the shooter was a white male who left on foot toward the back of the shopping center. They called in a canine unit to try and pick up the shooter's set.

When the canine came to where Heather's vehicle was parked and took off, and it was clearly running a track, the track ran down towards the store, around a corner of the store to the back.

So the dog is going behind the store, is he?

It goes to the rear of the store. There's a parking area back there that backs up to an extended stay hotel. The dog went straight to that area to a park, about where the parking spaces were right there, and then lost interest. So at that point, We were sure that the person had gotten into the vehicle and driven away.

They're going to meet their vehicle, and they're going to get out of Dodge, huh? Right.

And of course, that's when we started the canvas of the hotel and other places, trying to get as much information as we could get.

But no one in that area saw a suspicious cautious white male, either on foot or driving away. What did it all mean? Was Heather the victim of a random shooting or a well-planned execution? None of Heather's loved ones could wrap their minds around either possibility. She'd always been such a ray of sunshine in everyone's lives.

I would describe her personality in one word, and that's bright, because she always brought light into an area or into a relationship that she came into.

Heather grew up in the Greater Atlanta area, a doting sister to two younger brothers. She was Daddy's little girl, huh?

I'd have to say so.

You're only one of three.

She was a special person. You knew it from early on. We adopted a child from Guatemala, Hunter. When we brought him home, she just took him under her wing.

She She was a good student and pretty social in high school. Did she have young boyfriends?

When she was 16, 17, she started having boyfriends. A guy she had met at church, and they were okay for a while, and then they weren't. Then she met Steven. They became pretty tight pretty quick.

Heather was 17. Steven Stroob Jr, a year older. They went from high school sweethearts to engaged in just two years. And by 20, Heather was married. How'd you feel if you did That did sound good to you.

It did because we knew that Steven treated her well.

The happy couple settled down nearby and focused on their careers. Heather was a floral designer and loved taking photographs of her arrangements. She worked at her parents' flower shop while Steven worked in construction.

Heather was our main designer, and Mary was the manager and secondary designer.

She must have been good at it.

She was. She loved it.

Three years later, baby Carson arrived. Closer Heather and Jennifer says Heather couldn't have been happier.

She was the greatest mom, the greatest mom. I remember watching her parent him with such kindness and just speaking to him like a little man instead of a machete as toddler.

She had a boy and you had some girls.

She had the boy, I had the girls, and that's how we affectionly referred to them.

I get the idea that Carson and Heather were almost part of your family.

They were my family. She was my best friend. But the real truth was that she was my sister.

Jennifer loved seeing her sister thrive. By that point, Heather had opened a flower shop of her own. Steven built a playpen for Carson, so Heather could keep an eye on him while she worked.

Steven really wanted to make sure Carson was taken care of, like Heather was taken care of. And occasionally, Joanna would be there helping out.

Steven's mom, Joanna, had always been supportive. She'd largely raised him as a single parent.

She was often there to help with deliveries, and she was very much in the picture and trying to help Steven and Heather be successful in that career.

From the outside, everything seemed to be going well. But in private, there were problems. So, buddy, we got trouble in the marriage, huh? Words, confrontations?

Yes, there was that. This was after Carson had been born also. So there was that.

So a young couple with a young baby?

Exactly.

A new business and baby. Buddy believes it all became a huge strain on the marriage, but says Heather never shared her marital woes with him. For that, she leaned on close girlfriends like Jennifer.

There were absolutely times that I stood and held her while she cried, when it just became overwhelming and too much and too heavy. She was broken. She took her vows very seriously.

She was an observant Christian girl.

Very much. Very much.

Heather and Steven tried marriage counseling at their church, but not for long. What happened?

It's not the route that he chose. It's not what he wanted.

The couple separated, and over the next year, Heather built a new and happier life. Then, in a flash, it was all taken away. But why and by whom? Snaleville police were about to question a group of eyewitnesses who they hoped would bring them closer to finding out.

He was tall, white, brown hair, red shirt. It looked to me like they were doing a baby swap.

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He was looking for James Bond girls.

How fun would that be to be a Bond girl? Then twist them into a nightmare.

This guy has done this before. He'll do it again.

Until a group of women band it together to put him behind bars and keep him there.

You have to participate fiercely, fiercely in what happens next.

I'm Keith Morison, and this is murder in the Hollywood Hills, an all new podcast from Dateland. Listen to murder in the Hollywood Hills for free starting Tuesday, or subscribe to Dateline Premium on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or datelinepremium. Com to unlock new episodes right now. Heather Stroob's parents were in unbearable pain. Their only daughter, dead at the hands of an unknown shooter. They had no idea why.

Of course, we didn't know who did it. We didn't know who else might be involved in the plot.

But they weren't under arrest, whoever they were. No. They were out there. Yeah. They wanted answers. So did detectives who hoped a handful eyewitness could help. Lieutenant, you're at the police Department, and you have rounded up six people you believe to be witnesses to this event. Correct. They almost have different vantage points of where they are during the shooting.

They did. They were in different vehicles, different spots of the parking lot.

What were you hoping to learn with this group of witnesses?

Lots of things, as much as we could. Where did the suspect come from? Where did the suspect leave? Then anything that I might not even be thinking about.

Officers learned from Heather's family that she was at the parking lot to meet with her estranged husband for a custody swap of their 19-month-old son. Now, investigators needed to know everything that occurred after she arrived. All six witnesses had something valuable to offer, but three accounts were particularly helpful, starting with this 29-year-old mom. She was sitting in a parked car while her husband shopped.

I was in the car because the baby was sleeping.

She told Detective Boon her car was two rows from Heather's Escalade when a green minivan pulled up right next to it. Who was in the green minivan?

It was a gentleman. Was he meeting with this person?

Yes.

Okay.

What did he look like?

He was tall, white, brown hair, red shirt. It looked to me like they were doing a baby swap.

She described the swap as brief. No chit-chat between Heather and the man. He handed over the toddler and seemed to drive away.

What was she doing when he was backing out and leaving? She was putting the baby in the back seat.

The witness then saw a white male she'd noticed wandering around the parking lot suddenly changed direction.

I saw him turn around and with a brisk walk, head towards her car.

Then what happened?

He approached her while she was closed in the back door.

A few seconds later, Heather screamed. And she backed up facing the suspect still, closed the front door, walked around the front of the car, closed her driver's door.

Okay. And then he stood in front of the driver's door.

Was he keeping her from getting in the car?

Yes.

So he was leaned up against the driver's door?

Yes, but he wasn't a big guy.

She said that Heather and the shooter then exchanged a few brief words. Could you hear what he was saying?

No, I couldn't hear any of that. What about body language?

Based on their body language, what do you think was going on?

She seemed startled, taken aback, I think confused.

In your impression, did she know who it was?

I want to say no.

But Detective Boon spoke with a second witness who disagreed. This witness remembered Heather and the shooter exchanging what seemed to be tense words as she drove by them in the parking lot. I got the impression they knew each other.

Okay.

It seemed odd to me after it happened.

Like I said, when I first saw it, I thought it was a confrontation between maybe... I'm saying teenagers, but yeah, exactly, like a boyfriend-girlfriend.

But then she heard Heather softly cry out. Right as I passed her and him, my window was down, and she said, Help. Help. She knew she heard it, but wasn't sure if what she was seeing and hearing was real. So she kept driving. But this 18-year-old witness could see the fear in Heather's face.

I don't know if she knew him or whatever it was, but she had recognized that this was a dangerous situation.

She was riding in the back seat of her parents car when the shooter first caught her eye. I had noticed his hair because it was poofy and it was really dark, and he had a mustache on, and it looked really, really fake.

I made the comment to my parents saying, Oh, look at that guy's mustache. Being a joke, and my entire family turned and looked.

Moments later, she could see Heather was in danger.

I saw him reach over his shoulder into his back and pull out something that was dark, and it was, I guess, the gun was inside of it.

Suddenly, the first witness saw the man fire a single shot. Did you see where he pointed the gun at? Right in the frame. Did you see the gun itself? No.

Was the gun in something? I couldn't tell you. I couldn't.

All three women saw Heather fall to the ground and say the shooter then turned and calmly walked away. But why was the shooter strolling away from a murder? I'd be legging it out of there, right?

Let me get out as quickly as I can.

But that's not what they saw?

No, just walked away.

How did they describe the shooter?

Small in stature. Some people described like a little boy, but wearing a disguise to the effect of a sunny and sheer type of disguise, a wig and a mustache, but small in stature.

And he was wearing pretty nondescript clothing, khaki pants, long sleeve buttoned-down shirt, and a black laptop or messenger bag. What'd you make of that? The central fact that your shooter was in disguise?

It was certainly bizarre. And so we got to figure out why. If you're going to put a disguise on, that means that person knows who you are. Could be one reason. Second reason could be because if you're caught on surveillance video, it's going to give you a disguise that we can't tell exactly who you are.

And there were surveillance cameras in the area. Officers were already tracking down the footage. But detectives found the heated exchange between Heather and her killer Just as important as his disguise, maybe more.

The biggest takeaway to me was them being in an argument. They just showed that this was not a stranger on stranger incident.

Instead, they believe the man in disguise had to be someone who knew exactly when and where Heather did her custody swam.

There were 12 people that knew that Heather was going to be in that parking lot to do the custody exchange.

Theory. Find the names of everyone with those details and they'd find the shooter. After questioning eyewitness for hours, Snillville police finally had a lead. They were now convinced Heather was not the victim of random violence because she and the shooter exchanged heated words moments before the shooting.

There was a conversation that entail, which led us to believe they knew each other.

The murder also appeared well-planned, down to just the right moment to attack.

We knew that the perpetrator was there, lying in waiting prior to the custody exchange.

And detectives realized that was the key to finding Heather's killer. Pinpoint who knew when and where the custody swap would take place, and they'd eventually find a shooter.

There were 12 people that knew that Heather was going to be in that parking lot to do the custody exchange.

Who knew how this going down, huh?

Right. We needed to know who knew.

So you got a box, all these faces, and each of them has got to explain themselves and give you an alibi?

Correct.

Because your theory is what? That maybe your killer is in that group because somebody had to know that Sunday night was the time and target was the place.

Right.

The list included Heather's friends, extended family, and business associates. Only seven fit the profile of the shooter, male. And while the shooter was in a bizarre disguise, which made identification difficult, detectives felt they had a good description of his height and build. They hoped it would narrow the list, and it did that night when investigators learned that Heather was seeing someone. Now, Heather, your victim has had a present tense boyfriend. If I were you guys, I'd be interested in that fellow. Michael?

Right, Michael Vickers.

They immediately asked Michael down to the station, and he agreed. And whether it was shock or something else, he appeared calm and composed throughout the interview. You have your 90 card reading with you. Let me just get your basic information. Michael was one of the last people to see Heather alive. Detective Boon asked how she spent her day.

9:00, around 9:00 AM, we woke up.

Right away, detectives noticed something.

He caught her eye because of his height and weight. He fit the physical description of the perpetrator, and it made sense. They knew each other, according to the witnesses, same height, same weight.

How long have you been together? I want to say the middle of November. We were together since the middle of November.

That's when I met. As they talked, Detective Boon remembered eyewitness accounts about the exchange between Heather and the shooter and thought.

He could be the person wearing a disguise that could explain why they had a conversation.

Boyfriend-girlfriend, things happen. I mean, that's very common.

All kinds of things happening in private life that not everybody else knows about.

And there was something else. Michael knew every detail of Carson's custody swab. He'd made the trip with Heather weeks before and observed it from the store entrance.

I was at the target. I had already done my shopping and just waited, and then I saw her get out of the car and pull him around, put him in the car seat, go back around. So you all had to get up there together? Yeah. So the exchange never really took a long period of time? No, it was a couple of minutes.

But did Michael have the means to carry out the shooting? Detective Boon asked. Do you own a gun?

No. Never on a gun? No. Have you ever borrowed a gun? No. Have you ever shot a gun? No.

He said he and Heather were happy together.

Tell me about yours and Heather's relationship. It was awesome. Okay. It was great. She kept me together. We were planning on buying a house.

Michael also gave them an alibi, said he was at work as a restaurant manager nearly 20 minutes away. Who can we talk to at work just to verify that you were there the whole day and all that?

Anybody that's working. You could talk to Abby.

They'd have to see if Michael's alibi held up. But in the meantime, the biggest lead that night came from someone else entirely. Her name was Tracy, and she was one of Heather's closest friends.

First of all, I just want to say I'm sorry for your loss. I don't know how close you two are with my understanding.

You all are pretty close. She's like my sister. When was the last time you talked to her?

She left my house at 4:45 this afternoon.

Where was she going?

To pick Carson up at the Target Snowball.

She explained Heather and her estranged husband picked the location two months prior.

How come in Snowball? Because she lives in Winder with Michael, and Steven lives in Winnet County. She works in Cony's, he works in Tucker, so it's a... Okay, is that where they normally exchange the queue?

Detective Boon dug down deeper to see if there was anything in Heather's background that might make her a target.

Did she do any drugs? No. Never?

Never. Okay.

She didn't do anything bad? No.

Nothing out of the ordinary? No.

Okay. What about the people she hung around with? No. Heather was the type of person who would anything for anybody anytime they needed it. If someone came up to her and needed her last dollar, she would give it to them.

But there was one person Tracy feared might be involved in Heather's murder, Steven, her estranged husband. Tracy explained that Heather and Steven were going through an ugly divorce and custody battle. As Carson's father, he was at the top of the detective's list of 12 people who knew about the custody swap. If he did this or had this done, it would be to lessen the hassle over the baby?

Did he-Child support. Did he want the full custody of the child? He did.

Do you think he's capable, he's the type of person who would do this with Carson there?

I think he would have done it and not thought about it until afterwards. Is he on a gun? No, I don't know. Okay. I don't know. Do you think this is something he would want to do himself or he'd want to hire someone to do? I don't know.

It wasn't proof, but it had the makings of a strong motive for murder. Give me a snapshot of what you've learned about Heather, what you've learned about her ex who was part of this transfer of the child.

The biggest thing was a divorce. They were not getting along.

Any ugliness going on between them, whether it was words or closing His fist or anything?

None that we were aware of.

Detectives needed to find Steven and see what he had to say. And when they did, his actions raised more than a few eyebrows.

He's lied. From the get-go. That's correct.

Detectives were homies in on the men in Heather Strub's life, men who were also on Detective's list of 12 people who knew the details of her custody swap. First off, her boyfriend, Michael Vickers. He told police he had nothing to do with Heather's murder, that loved her and had an alibi, but he remained on their list of possible suspects. All these years later, Michael still remembers that night.

I was questioning why they were asking me these questions because I'm like, I was not there.

Did you say what's going on here, guys?

I was asking, but I wasn't getting any answers, which made me think, Well, maybe they do think I had something to do with it. They didn't say no, and they didn't say yes.

Why did you keep digging down on him?

Because we wanted to make sure that we were going in the right direction. We never wanted to focus on one person to the exclusion of others.

But that all changed once detectives checked out Michael's alibi.

He was able to provide where he was working that night, and so we went out to his place of business and actually cooperated his statement with several people who were working who said, No, he was here.

As you left his place of business, that restaurant, did you say, Michael Vickers is likely not our guy? Correct. Now it was Heather's estranged husband, Steven Stroop Jr, who suddenly took a priority.

Their relationship was really rocky. Obviously, they were getting divorced. It was a lot deeper than that.

Heather's close friend, Tracey, told investigators that Steven cheated on Heather and, when confronted, refused to end his affair.

To file for the divorce, her and him, she did. And just because the cheating? Okay.

Who was the person that he was having an affair with that he was cheating? Her name is Stacey.

I do not know her last name.

However, she did know Stacey and Steven were still together and felt Steven was the only person with a possible motive for murder. Why Steven?

Because he didn't like the fact that Heather had moved on with her life and that they argued constantly in a car accident.

Plus, she pointed out only Steven could have known just when and where to pull the trigger.

Unless someone had followed her, but no one else knew.

Officers were already looking for Steven since he was Heather's next of kin. Now, finding was even more important. They finally tracked him down at the home of his mom and stepdad, Joanna and Jack Hayes. According to police, when Steven's stepdad answered the door, a young man approached. When police asked if he was Steven's true, they say he replied, No, I'm his cousin, and walked away.

The man says, Who are you here to talk to? And I said, Steven Strobe. And he's like, Well, you were just talking to him. What is that about? It was very suspicious, and then it drew him in. And he's lied to you. And he's lied. From the get-go. That's correct.

According to police, Steven tried to explain, said he thought they were there about a debt he owed. They told him that Heather was dead, and he swore he knew nothing about it. But could police trust him?

At that point, they asked him to come back to the police Department where he was interviewed.

I'm always interested in demeanor. Who's this guy in the room now? Who are you seeing?

He was upset when he found out about Heather being dead.

Does he understand the peril of that situation?

Yes. We had to either prove that he's the one that did it or prove that he didn't do it.

Steven confirmed to detectives that he was the man witnesses saw at the parking lot custody exchange. Do you want to know where he goes, Steven?

Well, that was important to know. He told us that he went to a car wash in Littleborn to meet with his girlfriend.

His girlfriend, Stacey Atkins, the same woman he'd had an affair with. From the car wash, Steven told detectives they both drove to Stacey's house where they hung out until he drove home later that night. But Steven had lied to police once. They needed to check his alibi to be sure he wasn't doing so again.

Timelines are always important, and not just for them to establish a timeline that we can go back and either cooperate or disprove, but make sure they stay consistent with where they were at certain times of the day, prior to and after.

So he's still in your interview room. What's he given up?

He's not really saying a whole lot. He's just saying, I don't know what happened. I mean, that was pretty much his stance is that he didn't have anything to do with it, that he wasn't there. He left, and that he couldn't have done it.

So you Were you in a run with him for that night?

We were, yes. We let him go.

So not to say you're not going to see him again.

Right.

As the only person with a possible and compelling motive for killing Heather, Steven had become their lead suspect. And when detectives spoke to Heather's friends and family, turned out Tracy wasn't the only one who believed Steven was responsible for Heather's death. Heather's other best friend, Jennifer, did, too.

I absolutely thought that he was a part of it.

We all did. That the gun was in his hand.

It made sense. It just made sense. Everything was so volatile.

Jennifer says Heather often complained about heated arguments Steven started during the custody swaps and feared he might take Carson from her.

She honestly just expected to show up and for them not to. She expected to get there to pick up Carson and the baby.Swap.

Day, and there's no swap.And.

There's no swap. There's no Carson. That's what she expected.

Concerned something more aggressive might occur. Jennifer and other friends asked Heather to contact them as soon as each custody swap was over.

We weren't comfortable with the constant arguments that were started. Unfortunately, when you have a situation as tumultuous as that can be, you don't really know what can transpire from a heated argument.

Heather's dad, Buddy, also worried about Steven's temper. Well, he snapped at her.

I don't care to go into that.

But something happened. Yes. Buddy and his wife couldn't bear the thought of their grandson in the care of someone suspected of killing his mom. After Heather's murder, a relative brought Carson from the hospital to their home where he spent the night. You had Carson. You and Mary had Carson.

That's right.

The next day, he and Mary hired a family law attorney to fight for custody. And with financial help from his mom, Steven would soon do the same. Things between Heather and Steven's families were heating up. So was the hunt for Heather's killer. Police were about to find new video and new evidence that would cast a whole new light on the investigation.

You can tell by the way the perpetrator is walking, that that's not a normal gait. It's not a normal walk. Vhi Multitrip Travel Insurance is your passport to peace of mind. Lost baggage in Beijing, hotel cancelation in Cavan. Sprained ankle in Auckland. Wherever you go, you're covered from only €59 a year.

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For true crime fans, nothing is more chilling than watching Dateland. Have you ever seen such a thing before? For podcast fans, nothing is more chilling than listening. What goes through your mind when you make a discovery like that? And when you subscribe to Dateland Premium, it gets even better. Excuse me, I sound a little skeptical. Every episode is ad-free. Oh, wow.

So this could be your ace in the hole.

And not just ad-free, you also get early access to new intriguing mysteries and exclusive bonus content. So what were you afraid of? Dateline Premium. Subscribe now on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or datelinepremium. Com. You ready for what's coming? Steven Stroop Jr. Swore to police he had nothing to do with his estranged wife's murder, but detectives still had doubts.

We did not know if he was involved.

But he's acting a little squirly, I think I hear you saying.

He was.

While fellow officers looked into his alibi, detectives turned their attention to an important discovery, security footage of the parking lot where Heather was killed. And when they sat down to screen it, they saw this. Chief, it's not great video, is it?It's.

Not good video.It's grainy and fuzzy and extremely-And the camera's always moving, huh? And we tried to get it enhanced as best we could, but even with that, we didn't get much from that.

After the car was However, after watching it over and over again, detectives found important evidence.

It's hard to see at first glance, so Detective Boon and Detective Downs took us through it minute by minute.

So if you'll notice that the camera actually hands left to right and a little bit up and down. So what you're looking at is the front of the target store, and then the direction it's facing is actually east. Right here, you'll see Heather Stroop's vehicle.

She's already arrived.

That's her. That's a burgundy Escalade right there in the parking lot.

Five minutes later, that's Steven's green minivan parked right next to Heather.

So at this point in time, both Steven and Heather are there. The custody exchange is occurring. And then what we see is this figure that we believe to be the perpetrator, which matches what the witnesses tell us the perpetrator being there ahead of time, lying and waiting and watching the exchange. Right here, you'll see Steven's green minivan start to exit the parking lot as it just exited right there. It goes up to Ronald Reagan and turns right and goes towards Lilburn.

But just before the crucial moment of the shooting, the camera moved. There were no images of the shooter approaching Heather or of the shooting itself. You don't have everything, but what is good about it?

Well, although the picture quality is not great, it still paints a picture for us where Heather's vehicle was, where was the killer hiding out at. Also, we can tell when the crime actually occurred because you can see the people on the video just stopping their tracks and-Reacting to it.reacting into it and looking in that exact direction towards her car.

It lets us also confirm that Steven had left the parking lot prior to the shooting.

Why was that important?

Well, because we didn't know it initially if he was a suspect or not.

If he had gone up a few parking lanes and pulled over, that would have been a different story. It would have been a different story. Detectives now knew it was impossible for Steven to be the shooter. He didn't have enough time to drive out of frame, return, and shoot Heather. But there was also a second security camera that recorded a different angle, and this one gave investigators more of what they were hoping for, a better look at Heather's killer. There are two cameras. These are the pictures taken by the second one. Here you actually see your shooter.

What you'll see is the suspect come around As you see now, walking down the sidewalk. There's the figure walking.

That's the shooter?

That's the shooter right there walking across the parking lot. The murder has not happened yet? Not yet.

Just 11 minutes later, after the shooting was over, the perpetrator walked by the camera again. This time, exiting the parking lot.

What's interesting about that is if you notice the approach and the exit were at the same speed. The approach was nice and calm walking up to the area where they were going to do surveillance prior to the exchange. And then as the perpetrator was exiting and leaving, the same speed, the same walk, the same gate, the exact same way they walk in here.

Cool, calm, and collected, huh?

Very, yeah.

It was impossible to see any details of the shooter's face or disguise. However, there was one thing that did stand out to detectives. The killer's wide, straight-legged walk.

The separation of the legs, how far apart they are. It was a long stroke.

Even though this particular camera is only capturing every other frame, you can still tell by the way the perpetrator is walking, that that's not a a normal gate. It's not a normal walk.

As for how the shooter made his escape, they could only guess.

We're not sure where the perpetrator went once they went out of the frame of the camera.

But it's clearly back here.

But it's clearly behind the building.

That's what the canine does, right?

Correct.

Takes you to a parking space.

It basically gets to an asphalt area behind the building and no longer has a track.

While the security footage helped clarify everything witnesses described, the shooter's identity was still a mystery. The video ruled Steven out as the shooter. However, it didn't clear him of all suspicion. He doesn't get off your suspect list because of that, right?

Absolutely not. We don't know what his involvement is and whether he still had involvement, whether he was part of the conspiracy to put this together or anything. He's still very much a viable suspect for us or a person of interest.

In the meantime, in the hope of finding Heather's killer, detectives continued down the list of 12 people who knew about Heather's custody swap. They had no idea they were about to get a head-spinning lead, one that would throw all their assumptions about the man in disguise right out the window.

He came out of the back entrance to smoke a cigarette, and that's when he saw the suspect in the white pickup truck parked over here.

And Heather's estranged husband was about to be back in the hot seat, this time with a revelation that would send the investigation in a completely new direction. Heather's parents were shattered. Their only daughter, gone forever. The thought seemed inconceivable. How did you get through the next days the next week?

Not very well, but at the same time, as long as Carson was okay. We just had to know that Carson was okay.

How distraught was Michael by the loss of Heather in such an awful way.

Very. He was right down on the floor with the rest of us.

But he says he always knew that Michael had nothing to do with Heather's murder. Michael adored Heather. Good guy in your estimation.

Absolutely.

So if she hadn't run out of time, he might have been many chapters of her life, huh?

I think it would have been a novel. It's all gone. Everything changed that night.

Michael found it It was hard to accept that the future he imagined was suddenly impossible. Did you think marriage was right around the corner? We were both planning on getting married.

Yes. She was the real deal for you. She was. Absolutely.

He found it hard to accept, too, the loss of Heather's son.

They had begun to bond. You can hear Heather's voice cheering them on as she recorded this video. Corson, say hello. Say hi. Now, Heather was dead, and Michael was too consumed with grief to think about anything else.

Are you starting to pour doubles at that point? I had triples and quadruples.

There was times where I don't remember. So you had blackout legless periods here? I did because I was so angry.

I didn't know why I wasn't ever going to see her again.

So I basically curled up in a ball and let the police handle what was going on.

For detectives, that meant working their way down the shrinking list of potential suspects. Including mom and dad, or did they get a pass? No, nobody got a pass. Mom and dad were on the list, so we had to prove that they were not involved. They needed an alibi the same way everybody else did. That's right. Though you can't imagine parents shooting their child. No, but we had to rule them out. We couldn't just assume and say to ourselves, Mom and dad wouldn't do that. It sounds cold, but it's the way you guys work. Correct.

Detectives confirmed that the parents, Buddy and Mary, were driving back to Georgia. They were taken off the list. Steven's girlfriend, Stacey, was another matter.

She was also on the list and part of Steven's alibi. Are you interested in her story? We are. In romantic entanglements, you can create an ugly story involving the girlfriend, right? That's right. Even though Steven wasn't the shooter, there was still the possibility that he was involved in a murder for hire plot or acting as a conspirator of some kind.

Perhaps Stacey knew something.

Steven said right after the custody exchange, he went and met her at the car wash. She was also with him prior to the custody exchange and she was there with Carson. Investigators wanted to hear Stacey's version of that day, starting with her visit to see Steven at his mom's house.

Stacey said she spent the afternoon there and that Steven left for the custody swap around 5:45 PM.

She lingered around the house a little longer. How do you think that you're at the house? Maybe five or 10 minutes.

Okay. Then you decided to go to the car wash? Mm-hmm.

State and local investigators spoke with Stacey several times over the course the investigation, and her story always remained the same.

She left for the car wash and texted Steven about her plans.

Did he send any text back to you?

Mm-hmm. Okay. Do you remember what time he got to the car wash? It was probably around 6:15.

They met in a neighboring town about 10 minutes after Heather was killed. Detectives were able to confirm Stacey and Steven's stories. Those stories jive.

So that did match up. That was part of us being able to clear Stacey.

So who else had a motive to kill Heather? Investigators had talked to six people on their list and come up empty.

And where did you go next? At that point in the investigation, we had run out of leads.

The heat was on, right?

Right. We had a who done it. You Homicide. You need to get that person off the streets as quickly as possible.

Detectives were stomped. Then a call came into the police station, one that would force them to throw all their assumptions about the shooter right out the window. I was notified of this potential witness, so I pretty much stopped what I was doing and grabbed a detective. Here's what they learned. A man named Darryl, a truck driver, called the police station after watching a news report on the shooting.

He had a story to tell. He was staying in the In-Town Sweets or Creshwood Sweets, is what it was called in 2009.

More or less behind the Target Store. Yeah, it was the hotel that's adjacent to or right behind the parking lot.

Darryl said he spotted a white pickup truck parked in a far corner of the motel the lot.

A person was in. It looked like they had a wig and a mustache.He picked up on that?Yeah. He was close enough to see that.

And he said he saw it all a few hours before the shooting. The detectives knew this was big. They got in their car and drove over to that motel lot to meet this Darryl in person. He was staying here at the motel.

He came out of the back entrance, had to smoke a cigarette, and that's when he saw the suspect in the light pickup truck parked over here. The lot was close to the area where the canine unit lost scent of the shooter. It also made for an easy escape. You can make a right-hand turn, and you're outside of our jurisdiction in 30 seconds.

You can be outside of the county that we're in in just a few minutes. Darryl said he'd seen the white pickup at least three times, twice the day before the shooting, and again on Sunday. What really caught his eye about the pickup was the personal touch the driver had added to it. He was an over-the-road truck driver, so all he did was observe vehicles all day. And He talked about a piece of black plastic trim that wasn't standard to that vehicle. So it was more of like an add-on. It was an upgrade. It was an aha moment. Detectives suddenly remembered their visit to Steven's house just after the murder. His mom, Joanna, wasn't there at the time.

They couldn't recall if it had been Steven or his stepdad who told him she'd driven off earlier that evening in her white Ford F-150.

Now, what were the chances out of the thousands of white Ford F-150s on the road at moment that Joanna's would have black plastic trim?

We asked him if he would ride with us by a house, and all we were going to do is point out the house and ask him if he recognized any of the vehicles in the driveway.

Not a coach or the witness? No, we just sat there. I pointed, I said, Okay, it's going to be this house on your left. And we slowly went by it. He said, That's the truck.

That's the truck right there. I know Lieutenant Boone probably felt the same way I did.

There's no way.

How does he know But we didn't say anything at that point. We turned around, came back by, and he said, That's the truck I saw. I'm like, How in the world can you be sure that's the truck? And he's like, That black molding that wraps around the body of that truck. A white F-150 with aftermarket black trim, right there in Joanna's driveway. We both looked each other like, We got a big break right here. Was it possible the shooter witnesses saw wasn't a man at all, but a woman. Police were about to bring in a sketch artist to put a face to their descriptions. The result was unlike anything they'd ever seen. I said, I don't know if this is going to help us.

But what's interesting, I think, is the pointed nose and the fact that it does indicate that the person we're looking for is pretty slender. He would lie his way into their dreams. He was looking for James Bond girls. How fun would that be, to be a Bond girl?

Then twist them into a nightmare. This guy has done this before. He'll do it again. Until a group of women band it together to put him behind bars and keep him there. You have to participate fiercely, fiercely in what happens next. I'm Keith Morosen, and this is murder in the Hollywood Hills, an all-new podcast from Dateland. Listen to murder in the Hollywood Hills for free starting Tuesday, or subscribe to Dateland Premium on Apple podcast, Spotify or datelandpremium.

Com to unlock new episodes right now. Hey, guys. Willy Geist here, reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down podcast.

On this week's episode, I get together with Academy Award winner, Kate Winslet, to talk about playing a dictator, losing her grip in the buzzy new mini-series, The Regime, and Reflections on that Disorienting Whirlwind of Titanic.

You can get our conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts.

Detectives got busy preparing search warrants for Joanna Hayes' F-150 pickup and house.

But was it possible that she, Steven's mom, was Heather's killer?

Eyewitness said the shooter was a slender male. We knew we were looking at a person that was very small in stature. But your witnesses to a person say it was a male.

Every one of them said it was a male. And wearing a disguise. The chief hoped an artist's sketch would clarify things. What do you see, chief? Well, it was almost like a caricature. It looked like a cartoon, didn't it?

Yeah, as opposed to an actual portrait of someone.

It looked more like a caricature.

Were you disappointed when you saw that sketch the first time? At first, yes, I was. Did you say, This is useless. Who's going to recognize this? I said, I don't know if this is going to help us.

But what's interesting, I think, is the pointed nose and the fact that it does indicate that the person we're looking for is pretty slender.

But did Joanna fit that description? Detectives had yet to meet her.

So what does she look like? What is her height? What is her weight? What is her stature? They got their answer when they drove to her house the next day.

They could see Joanna's height and weight roughly fit the eyewitness's description.

They introduced themselves and presented their search warrants. I'm explaining what we were there for, what was going on. Asked her to come back voluntarily to the police Department, and she said she didn't want to.

Which is It's her right, I guess.

It's absolutely her right.

She was not under arrest. So we took the opportunity just to go and sit down and just have a conversation with her. Ask for her alibi, for starters. Ask for alibi, just like we have done for everybody else in the investigation.

Steven's mother said the previous Sunday had been a busy one.

A trip to Home Depot, chores around the house, then a late in the day drive in that F-150 to see her parents. She left between 5:15 and 5:30. So she puts herself leaving the house prior to Steven Strub leaving house to go do the custody exchange.

She said it took her anywhere from an hour and a half to three hours to get to her parents' place with brief stops at a nearby post office and Wendy's. She also made a point, too, though, to say, If you'll just go look in my truck, there's a Wendy's receipt in there. So you'll know by looking at that that I couldn't have done it. The detective said they'd get to that later. In the meantime, could she describe her relationship with Heather?

She basically said, I don't want to answer that.

But she couldn't end that interview without letting people know what her true belief was, which was Heather wasn't a good parent.

Did she show any remorse or grief for the loss of the mother of her grandchild?

Not what I would consider typical.

No. The investigators towed away the pickup and confiscated firearms they'd found inside the house. If they were lucky, one of those guns would turn out to be their murder weapon.

Otherwise, the search didn't yield much. Did you find a wig?

Did you find a mustache? We did not find a wig. We didn't find a mustache. But they were intrigued What was up with Joanna's disdain for her daughter-in-law?

And what exactly was her role in Heather and Steven's relationship? Heather's family and friends proved helpful there.

What did you come to understand of the dynamic of Steven with his family?

How did he get along with his mother, for instance?

I think as long as Steven did what she said, everything was fine. Wore the pants as the whole saying used to go? Right. Very strong woman. You heard the expression My way or the highway, right? When Carson was born, they said Joanna's mother-knows-best attitude extended to her son's little boy.

Heather felt as if Joanna wanted to take on more of a motherly role than a grandmotherly role. Joanna would reach down and pick Carson up out of the stroller and just take off out of the door with him. And that was a no-no. You're right. Please don't just pick my child up and leave with him.Out the door?Out the door. She felt that Joanna had taken a lot of liberties with Carson. So this is about the child you're starting Yes.

She wanted to be in control of everything about to do with Carson.

So was she your suspect at that point? She was. Police kept that close to the vest. A few days after Heather's funeral, they were ready to have another talk.

I had to go back over the understanding he told me the other day. Not with Joanna. They'd get to her soon enough, but with Steven.

They hoped the sins of the mother might be revealed by her son.

What we're trying to accomplish in this interview we decided to go ahead and show him an artist sketch and the surveillance video that we'd obtain from Target. To what purpose? Why Steven? Our theory is that this was his mother. Who else knows their mother better than their son? Steven Stroob had no idea he was about to change the course of his wife's murder investigation and his life.

The police wanted to show him the video of that mysterious figure, the person they believed killed Heather.

This is very weird to me with Target Shop. We played it back several times.

And before he started saying anything, you could see it in his face.

That looks like her, doesn't it? How? Can he? That's her, tell me. No. Kenny? That's her, Eric. That's your mom. What are you talking? Kenny.

That's your mom, isn't it?

Why, you said she...

Yeah. She had a problem with me. She didn't tell me she got picked up. That's her, isn't it? You saw her. You know your mom. I can't even say, skinny. No, you know. Holy crap. That was the moment when he realized, here is his mother, the person who raised him, killing his ex-wife in the presence of his son. That child was in a car.

Unless your father was still awake, unless your mom walked in while he was still awake. He's trying to take care of you. That's why you got to take care of me. Next, they showed him the sketch.

Simple as it was something registered. Oh, my God. That's a lot to absorb. It is. In emotions, he became overwhelmed with emotions. I'm screwed up. My son's life is going to be Because his mom's dead. What, death has a mom and killer? Steven's reaction in that moment signaled two things for detectives.

They were convinced he not in coudes with his mom. Absolutely at that point. And? We decided at that point we needed to get him on the phone with his mom. Let's get your mom on the what line here. We wanted him to confront. She knew-When he was in this upset state, huh? Yeah.

It promised to be a mother and son heart to heart, unlike any these officers had heard before. Hey.

Mom. Hey. Hey. I just left the police station. They showed me the videotape. Yeah. It looks like you. Steven Stroop told police that the figure in that security footage, the person they believe killed Heather, was his mother, Joanna Hayes.

Now he was about to call confront her while police recorded it all. She knew that he had been called down to the police Department for another interview, and so we wanted to capitalize on that and came up with the backstory of, You're going to act like you just left the Police Department, and you're going to confront her and tell her what you just told us that you believe it's her.

Hey. Mom. Hey. Hey.

I just left Did you go to the police station? Yeah. They showed me the videotape. Yeah. It looks like you. It looks like me. Steven told his mother it was the shooter's frame and distinctive stiff-legged stride that gave her away. Bob, it looks like you.

It looks just like you. It walks like you. Why did you do it? I didn't, Steven. Bob. Over the course of the nearly nine-minute call, Steven repeatedly begged his mother to admit that she murdered Heather. Joanna swotted down every sob-filled accusation with a terse denial. Did you do it seriously? Do not lie to me.

Steven, no, I did not.

It shows us what she's thinking in this process. There was no empathy for her son. It was all about her in that They didn't get their confession, but the detectives reasoned the call had put Joanna on edge.

If they could get her into an interrogation room, maybe they could rattle her into giving up the truth. The next night, the detectives drove out to her house. Well, she came out and we briefly spoke. We told her, We'd like for you to voluntarily come back.

You follow us to the police for me. We want to talk to you.

And she agreed.

Were you surprised she agreed?

I was. She seemed very defeated to me. As she was getting ready to leave, she looks at her dogs and she says something along the lines of, I won't see.

What is it? I won't be coming back for a while.

I won't be coming back for a while. I was very optimistic at that point. I'm like, She's coming to confess. Wow. Julian. Yes.

I'm Harold Thomas. A colleague took the lead questioning Joanna. Detective Downs sat in while Detective Boon watched from another room. Basically, I was taking notes, watching her demeanor.

He could tell she was anxious to put distance between herself and Heather's murder. Joanna told them she had no involvement in her son's messy divorce. I don't ask. Like I said, I have I stalled it as much as I possibly can.

Completely non-committal. Like I said, it's what the two of them do is none of my business. She said that meant she had little, if anything, to do with her grandson's custody.

A grasping, controlling figure she was not. You knew that they exchanged you at Target 6:00 o'clock every other weekend?

No, sir. You didn't know that? Besides, she said, she was too busy with her own life. She could barely remember the details of that fateful Sunday. What were you wearing? Oh, gosh.

I'd say probably blue jeans, probably these shoes. She said all she knew for certain was she drove to her parents that night with a quick stop at a Wendy's along the way. The detective changed subjects. What about guns? Heather was shot. Did Joanna own any of those guns seized from her home?

Were they yours or somebody else's? Those are all my husband's.

Your husband's? Mm-hmm. Jerold? Mm-hmm. Is he not? No. Those are all actually handy guns from his father. I don't think he's ever hunted a day in his life either. So if Jerold didn't use them, did she?

Had she ever shot one of them or any gun before?

Are you good with a gun? I don't know. I haven't shot in so many years. Used to be?

My daddy used to take us out, and I'm good with a rifle, probably. But yeah, he used to take us out from the time we were tiny. Though she did seem to find humor in the detective's line of questioning.

There's three of the rifles I'm trying to sell.

Are you interested? No, not really. The detective tried to bring the conversation back to the case and to Heather.

He wanted to know what Johanna really thought of her daughter-in-law. Johanna turned serious. I mean, I'm not going to bash her. Okay.

I'm not going to do that. Except she did just that. She wanted the detectives to know Heather was no angel, more like a woman beset by demons who made Steven's life a misery.

Were they aware Heather was addicted to gambling? $7,000, $8,000, entry fees for online gambling. Johanna, actually, at one point in time, talks about a debt that Heather had run up that Steven was responsible for.

I think it was around $75,000.

The detectives didn't interrupt by telling her they knew all about Heather's financials, that Heather occasionally bet online, but only in small amounts.

Instead, They let Joanna press on. She hinted Heather had taken to stealing. Some jewelry disappeared that Steven looked for quite earnestly. And not only was she a terrible wife, Joanna said, but Heather also turned out to be the mother from hell. Do you ever know of a time when Heather wasn't there for the baby?

Why did you? I'm not talking about why they were married. Yes.

Then the officer changed the subject again. He brought up that security footage and the woman Steven in it.

My son says it's me. Towards the end of that portion of the interview, I could tell she was starting to put her guard up. I just don't believe it. You don't think he said that? No.

He lying? I don't know. Maybe we need to go get his glasses. It was as though the oxygen left the room. Joanna was done talking. They took a break, decided to swap out the other detective for Boon.

Maybe a new face in the room would unsettle her. That and a look at a certain sketch.

You're thinking probably this is as good as it's ever going to get.Right, and this is her only shot. She's talking, she's vulnerable, and she hasn't lared up.

Yeah, and this is her only shot. We either get it now or we don't get it at all.

We know you're not being honest with us about everything. Let me tell you, now is the time.Now is the time.I don't think so.

Joanna Hayes, with her characteristic stiff walk, was ready for round two of her interrogation.

Gone was the tension of the previous session.

Now she seemed eager to consider more of the evidence against her. Since she said you hadn't seen this, this is going to be the video clip. This is an Is this the one I showed on the news, too? I believe it is. Okay.

But it didn't take long for her new interrogator, Detective Boon, to understand what was really going on, that Joanna was only humoring them.

She was not intimidated by law enforcement.

She wasn't intimidated sitting in an interview room.

It didn't bother her. He decided playing nice would be useless. This is a artist's ring ring from our witnesses. He promptly showed her the sketch. That was her, wasn't it?

It It's basically the same facial features, the same jawline, the same chin, same nose. I just don't see it.

We know you're not being honest with us about everything. Let me tell you, now is the time. Now is the time.

I don't think What's up? Lieutenant Boon leaned in, and she leaned right back into him and just was staring right in his eyes, and I was like, That's evil. The two detectives tried scaring her, telling her they'd likely find evidence of the crime in pickup. You know how hard it is to clean blood out of a carpet in a vehicle? I have no blood in a carpet in a vehicle.

But it's hard to do that. I have no reason to have to clean blood out of a carpet in a vehicle. They hit her with motive and opportunity. They already knew from Heather's friends that Joanna wanted to play mom to Carson.

I would be the least person to have to gain anything by it. You have Carson every day. No, I wouldn't. Why would I I have Carson every day? They knew she was lying when she claimed ignorance about the custody swap in that target lot. Definitely a limited number of people who knew about the meeting location.

We know from talking to the witnesses that the person who killed Heather knew her. We know that.

And they knew she matched the shooter's height and overall frame. These coincidences are starting. They're all starting to add up, and it's not looking good for you.

She slid back and she slid back, and she She stood up and she said, Well, like I said, when you get your little blood and whatever you're going to find in the truck, let me know.

Until then. Okay. And she walked out of the room. She just walked in. Yeah. Interview terminated.

If they wanted to arrest her, they'd need evidence. I got the impression they knew each other. Okay.

So the investigators went back to the beginning to their eyewitness. And go over each one. Detectives called them in for a photo lineup. So you show your witnesses an array of women's photos?

Correct. And a couple of them pointed to Joanna, but they couldn't to 100% say it was her. Not exactly a slam dunk, as evidence goes, but the chief thought it helped.

After all, he said, no one but Joanna checked all their boxes. We knew that there were about 12 people who knew where that custody swap was going to take place. There was only one person that matched the description of that, and it was Joanne.

Of course, linking a disguise to Joanne, an actual wig and mustache would be helpful. They never did find those, but they did remove something curious from the floorboard of her pickup.

A single fiber that was lifted from the floorboard that was described as an oliphan fiber.

A lab analyst determined it likely came from a wig. But just like those eyewitness, he couldn't be 100% sure.

Another vague clue came from the center console of the pickup. Two particles that they were able to say could be gunshot residue Now we've got what could be gunshot residue, what could be a wig fiber.

But it's close but no cigar. Right. It went on like that for weeks.

By then, Heather's family and friends knew police had seized Joanna's pickup and called her in for questioning. They wanted to know if she was now suspect number one. And if so, when would police arrest her?

I remember this conversation with Detective Downs one day. I remember having that conversation with him.

We all know, and he goes, We know, too. He said, But here's the thing. We have to make sure that everything is good to go.

When we get her, we intend to keep her. Because we're only getting one shot at it. We get one shot at this, and if we don't do it right, then she gets away with it.

I remember that day going, Okay. It was really all I needed to just go, All right, I can wait.

Roughly six months after the murder, detectives presented everything they had to prosecutor Dan Mayfield. We knew we were done. We would have to make a decision on this circumstantial evidence case with what we had. There was no more evidence coming.

He took what he had to a grand jury. Its decision, the prosecutor did have a case. It indicted Johanna on charges of murder, aggravated assault, and possession of a firearms. Police arrested her at her parents' home. When we got her back, I started talking to her, and she immediately loyered up.

News of the arrest made it quickly to Heather's family and friends. Michael Vickers was driving at the time.

All I remember was them calling me and telling me they arrested Joey.

I pulled over on the side of the highway on 85, and I started crying. I think I remember squeling and just laughing. It was like it was such a relief. They had no idea the hard part lay ahead. No idea a pivotal witness was having doubts.

Steven was becoming less and less cooperative with the police and the prosecution. He's retreating from you, huh? Yes. Heather's family and friends were euphoric over the arrest of Joanna, the mother-in-law.

They were relieved, too, that Heather's little boy was living with her parents, at least until the court ruled on custody.

For the most part, though, happiness was in short supply.

Heather's ghosts seemed to be everywhere. I left my job.

We moved homes because I would walk into those places and all I could see was her.

Michael said seeing Joanna at pre-trial hearings was torture. I wanted to jump over the railing and ask her why.

Just ask her why. And just with the smirk and her demeanor and her, I guess, the way she acted, it just was something I couldn't understand. In the meantime, Gwynet County prosecutors Dan Mayfield and Krista Kirk waded through boxes of evidence. To say they were bullish on their case might be overstating it. I was confident that we could present a case to the jury that was convincing it.

You didn't say when. Didn't say when. No wig, no weapon. No wig, no weapon. No clothing, no fingerprint, no DNA. That's a lot of nothings to win a case. Are you worried? I'm always worried when you go into trial. We knew that it was circumstantial, but We also knew we had the right person.

Just no physical evidence for a knockout punch. Theirs would be a prosecution by a thousand cuts.

Many small pieces of evidence they hoped would convict.

In May 2011, two years after the murder, the trial of Georgia versus Joanna Hayes opened.

Heather's parents sat several rows behind the defendant. You're looking at her, you're studying her, trying to get inside her head.

I'm just sitting there thinking over and over and over, How could you do this? How could you get it in your mind that this is any good for you, Steven, Carson? And then, of course, then I flipped to the...

Pardon the word. You're such an.

Prosecutors promptly address the thorniest part of their case. Six eyewitness identifying a male, and at the defense table is a female. Is a woman.

That's a problem. Definitely. But they also started looking at it in terms of size and facial structure. The prosecutor told jurors that Joanna wore a disguise that day to fool potential witnesses into thinking they saw a man shoot Heather. In none of my cases before or after have I ever worked a case where a perpetrator was wearing a disguise? This was once in a career for me.

Sandra Parrish, a reporter who covered the trial, said she could feel the state's case coming together when it put that truck driver on the stand. He is the one that put Joanna's truck at the scene before the murder. He described it to a T, having after market molding on it. He described the person driving that truck being in disguise. He clues to the bad wig, as I call it. Yes. When she spotted him, she took off in a fast pace, squaling her tires. So she's out of there?

She's out of there. Prosecutors called detectives to the stand. They said they traced that vehicle to Joanna, who immediately pointed them to a Wendy's receipt. She said, A matter of fact, if you look in the glove box of the truck, there'll be a receipt there that shows I was in South Georgia.

She claimed there was no way she could have killed Heather at 6:00 PM in Snaleville and made it to this drive-through miles away by the time stamped on the receipt, 7:19 PM.

Detectives put her alibi to test.

And what the detectives did was they left the target at 6:03 when we think the perpetrator left, and they arrived at the Wendy's right about the same time as the time stamp on the Wendy's seat.

So it could be done. Absolutely.

Detectives never found the murder weapon, but the prosecutor called a firearms expert who told the jury a bullet fragment removed during autopsy was a match to a 38 revolver, either a Rauci or Taurus make.

Joanna told detectives she didn't own either.

Do you own a gun? No, I do not. But in a police interview, Joanna's ex, Stephen Stroob senior, said Joanna definitely owned a 38 Rauci during their marriage. The last time he saw it, he was walking out on her.

She had it laying out there.

She was threatening me with it. I was like, Don't do it. Do it. In court, he told the same story with a dramatic detail that echoed Heather's murder. They got into an argument and that Joanna Hayes took that same five-shot, 38 caliber revolver, and put it on his forehead.

Put it right here. Right on his forehead, but did not pull the trigger. Do you think he was lucky she didn't pull the trigger on that occasion? I think that he's alive today because he got out of there fast enough. A chilling story? The prosecutors had another one for jurors. But you did have a conversation about how you killed somebody and get away with it. Yeah, the conversation was there.

One of Joanna's former coworkers repeated the story he told police. He said roughly A year before Heather's death, during some idle chit-chat, Joanna shared her recipe for committing the perfect murder.

That she would destroy the weapon when she's done. She wouldn't use a vehicle that would stand out. I remember that was in the car in specific Exactly. She said, I wouldn't drive my Dodge truck, and I wouldn't drive my van.

I would drive my Ford truck because there's so many of them, and nobody could identify that. I'd have a disguise, and then I would shoot them. All the clothes I had on that day, I would throw in different places along the way and get rid of all of them.

How much is she telling you the story of the killing of Heather there?

That's pretty much exactly it. It looked as though all the state needed now was its star witness, Joanna's son, Steven.

But there was a problem, a big one for prosecutors. As we were preparing for trial, Steven was becoming less and less cooperative with the police and the prosecutors.

He's retreating from you, huh? Yes.

But we decided to go ahead and put him on the stand. He's an integral part of this case. Steven testified he no longer believed that was his mom in the surveillance footage.

Prosecutors were not having it.

They played his police interview for the court.

Jurers watched the moment Steven recognized his mother in the target security footage. That's her, isn't it? You saw it? You know your mom?

That could be. I was like, It's scary. No, you know. Holy crap. They also heard his voice, breaking with emotion, when he phoned her later that Bob.

Look just like you. Is that what you told him it looked like? As evidence, how powerful did you think that was? I think it was very powerful for the prosecution.

This juror is seeing how upset he is, despite what he's saying on the stand, they witnessed that phone call and what he said.

So you had her own son calling her out? Exactly. To the authorities?

Right. The prosecution said this case was about two women who wanted the same little boy, one who would die for him, the other who would kill.

She had the motive to do it. It was her vehicle that could do it. That, in fact, she is the one who took Heather's life.Pretty good summation?Yes. A summary that jurors might disregard, given what the defense was about to do. It wanted to replay that police interview, drawing attention to the officer. That's her. That's your mom. That's your mom. You saw it. You know your own mom. Joanna's attorney wanted to know if the officer was merely questioning Steven or steering him into betraying his mother. I mean, he definitely took advantage of the weaknesses of our case. There's always more to the story.

To go behind the scenes of tonight's episode, listen to our Talking Dateland series with Andrea and Dennis, available Wednesday. Joanna's attorney, Bruce Morris, addressed jurors by telling them the state had not given them much in the way of evidence.

No DNA, prints or weapons, tying his client to the murder.

This was a highly circumstantial case. There was no smoking gun.

Reporter Sandra Parrish said the defense wasted no time criticizing the police investigation. You zeroed in on Joanna right away.Rushed to judgment.Exactly. They tried to point out that maybe things weren't done properly by the police.

Joanna's attorney also explored the backstory of Heather's life. He told jurors her death could have been related to money she owed.

The defense alleged that she had gambling debts. She got behind somebody. They came looking for her.

Correct. Police were so biased, he argued, they even disregarded key evidence. They concluded the killer had to be a female, even though their witnesses initially said otherwise.

When they cross-examined the witnesses, focused in the fact that each of them said they saw a male.

Was the defense saying that you guys cooked the books on the testimony of the witnesses who started off this whole case believing they'd seen a man. They highlighted it. That was pretty big in their defense.

When they referred to our reports and the videos, all the witnesses said, Man, man, man, man. So that was a big the area they were resting.

The defense also attacked the way police allowed those witnesses to work with a sketch artist. This defense expert actually criticized the fact that multiple witnesses were brought together in the same room for the sketch artist.

They're contaminating each other's stories unwittingly. Giving suggestions to one another, possibly for something they didn't actually see.

The lawyer also tore into the truck driver's story. The man testified he saw Joanna's pickup the day of the shooting and the day before, Saturday.

Okay, what's the problem with that? Joanna was with her ex-husband at her parents' home in Lutherville. They were actually working on one of her rental properties there. We heard from the people who lived in those rental properties, so it could not have been her on Saturday. Perhaps the biggest challenge for Joanna's defense, her son. They replayed his police interview, highlighting the way this officer questioned him.

That's her, Heather. That's your mom. That's your mom. You saw it. You know your mom. The attorney asked Steven about that interview. Did he really think his mom killed Heather, or was the officer goading him into saying that?

Steven said that at the time, he thought he was going to have a nervous breakdown and described feeling pressured into identifying his mom as the shooter. The reporter noted that Joanna sat stone-face throughout her son's testimony, through the whole trial, really. She didn't have a lot of emotion throughout this trial.

There was a lot of shaking her head no or crying during the testimony of the trial.

She just sat there with her attorneys and listened to the evidence as it was presented. Joanna did not testify in her own defense.

Her attorney closed by telling jurors they could not find Joanna guilty because the state hadn't proved she was the person who pointed the gun at Heather.

Prosecutors knew Joanna's attorney had found vulnerable spots in their case.

I mean, he definitely took advantage of the weaknesses of our case. And there were weaknesses. They were weaknesses. You acknowledge it.

After roughly two weeks of testimony, jurors began deliberating. On day two, they paused to ask a question. Jurers asked to rehear that phone call that Steven made to his mom. Their only question, huh?

That was their only question. Mom, why did you do it?

I didn't. What's going through your head?

I was worried because in my experience, the longer a jury stays out, they tend to come back with a not guilty verdict.

Jurers took another day to deliberate, three and all, before announcing they had a verdict. But he remembers silently praying that they'd come back with just one word, guilty. And I said, Come on, just do it. And the jury did. We find the defendant guilty. I teared up, Mary teared up.

And they led her away. And they led her away.

Heather's dad wanted the judge to sentence Joanna to life and throw away the key. At the time, Georgia law didn't allow for that.

The judge sentenced Johanna to life in prison with a chance of parole after 30 years. Buddy was disappointed, but tried to rationalize it this way. Was she going to do? Kidnapped Carson when she's 90?

It served its purpose. Michael Vickers is happily married now, but that's not to say he doesn't think about Heather often.

Even last night, I drove past the cemetery and I cry. I mean, every time I do, it's upsetting because I do wonder what could have been.

As I hear you speak, Jennifer, this still seems to be an open wound for you. There's no scope.It always There's scar tissue here for you. It always will be. There's always going to be a her-shaped hole. You just learn to keep going. To make a sad story, sat her yet. Buddy's beloved wife, Mary, died almost three years after the trial. By then, a court had awarded the couple primary custody of Carson. Mary's sudden death left Buddy to raise the boy on his own.

He says his grand son is 16 years old now and poised to become a fine young man, despite having little contact with his father and no memory at all of his mother.

That's what hurt more than anything because to have that little boy the way of that wonderful woman changed the whole trajectory of his life. Changed the lives of so many. All it took was a single shot in a crowded parking lot on a Sunday evening. That's all for now. I'm Lester Holt. Thanks for joining us. Dateline Friday, one wrong turn ended in murder. He knew, make sure there's no witnesses. Now, for the first time, the investigation from crime scene to courtroom.

That really broke the case wide open.

Dateline Friday, 9:8 central, only on.